Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Travis (00:00.489)
you
Brian (00:03.079)
What was that? All right, we're in the Gong Show. Welcome, everyone, to the Foster Friendly podcast. I have my colleagues with me today who are amazing foster and adoptive parents. And today, we're kind of going off of a part two. Part one was...
Courtney (00:03.138)
DONG!
Travis (00:03.619)
Well
Brian (00:31.815)
or when the three of us were together was around what you need, what you need to do when you're a foster parent. And we gave some of our best advice. And today we're going to be looking at the other side of that ledger on what you don't need, what you don't need to do. And so for our audience, Travis and Courtney, why don't you introduce yourselves on your own personal experience?
around fostering and adopting.
Travis (01:06.615)
Well, we usually have the lady go first Courtney here, but I'll go first this time because she adds more of an impressive resume following me. that's not let's finish strong. Yep. So build onto mine. So, but yeah. So as far as like my story with this, my wife and I were actually, you foster parents at a children's home in South Carolina for, I believe it was around three years that we had,
Courtney (01:11.69)
I'm sorry.
Brian (01:15.503)
Yes, it's finished strong.
Brian (01:32.444)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (01:34.207)
sort of elementary up to middle school teenage boys, in that setting in a house and kind of, we had a shift, kind of a role. So you'd be on for like seven days and then off for five, I believe. And then you had teammates and all that kind of stuff. So we had all the adventures of being foster parents, but, but being able to step aside as well in that sense. So that isn't the same, but certainly dealing with, you know, kind of everything that these kids are dealing with for sure. And then.
Courtney (01:41.262)
the ship and the world, have to accept it and offer it to It's all the adventure of being father to parents. But being able to step aside as well in that sense, so that's interesting. But certainly, it was kind of different experience.
Travis (02:02.403)
in more quantity at times than other foster parents. And then we went on to be short-term foster parents after that as we were adopting two of the boys that were formerly in our care. So that is my story with this.
Courtney (02:03.982)
And then we went on to be shorter talk.
Brian (02:04.591)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (02:15.793)
Great.
Courtney (02:17.198)
Good to you. Well, make sure to outdo you, Travis. I am Courtney Williams and we've been foster parents certified for 17 years. And just in this sphere, I now get to train foster families that are incoming foster families and people that have been in this for a while. And I just love this topic because as a foster home, I know how overwhelming it can be to be like, you need this and you need this and you need to be this type of person and have this all together. And it can just seem so overwhelming.
Brian (02:20.444)
Yes.
Courtney (02:46.102)
And we don't often focus on like, you really don't have to be perfect. And that's the heartbeat behind us today is to say like, my family's not perfect. We've been doing this for 17 years and we have failed many times, you know, and why that even can be beneficial to the foster care system sometimes where we can bring our junk, can bring our, who we really are and not put on this facade of being perfect or having it all together. So I'm excited about this conversation because I feel like this is something we don't focus on enough of.
Travis (03:01.539)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (03:14.52)
We don't have to be perfect. We don't have to be these homes that have everything, all of our ducks in a row. Yes, there are certain guidelines. Like we talked about in the last episode, but it doesn't have to be perfect. And we'll say that a few times today. Yeah.
Travis (03:15.735)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (03:26.587)
Yeah, all right. So I've got two imperfect hosts with me. by the way, yes, my wife and I also fostered for five years. And then we started a nonprofit. And then we had a young man who had aged out of foster care come live with us for four years. And then we helped him launch. And it's complicated. anyway, so before, yeah, so to help us lay the groundwork.
Travis (03:28.219)
huh.
Travis (03:50.359)
Yeah
Brian (03:55.623)
for imperfection. I want you guys to share a fostering fail story. Just like everybody's like, well, if that you guys did that, then I can be better than you. Anyone got one ready for me?
Courtney (04:04.558)
Thank you.
Yes.
Travis (04:15.999)
Many to share. I'll go first here then. there was a moment, so this was back when we were in this setting of house parents. And I think what happened at the time was he probably, I want to say six kids at the time. And I think two of them had to stay back at the house because they had lost some privileges with behaviors. And so maybe my wife, Jess was staying back with them to, you know, do room chores and all that. So I think I'm taking the easy road out to take them to Dollar Tree.
Courtney (04:23.598)
I think what happened was probably, I want to say six kids at a time, I think two of them had to stay back at the house because there's loss in privileges and behavior, so maybe my wife, Jess, had stay back and that's kind of the whole point of all that. So I...
Travis (04:42.467)
the other four and go, I'm all, you know, take the next, they'll take the four to Dollar Tree. Let's go do that. So they just spend their allowance. Well, I realized, okay, they had $10 each to spend. So that's $40 total. But when you take kids at that age to like a Dollar Tree where like you can get 10 things or whatever, you know, okay, that's just the math of that. And all the, like, if you have indecisiveness, if you're also watching everybody,
Brian (04:47.174)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (04:49.55)
I realized that they had $10 each to spend, $40 total. When you take kids at that age to $1, you can get 10 things. That's just the math of that. And also, you're also watching everybody. There's all different ways to to the bathroom. And so about 20 minutes in, I felt like
Brian (04:50.247)
Thank
Brian (05:00.975)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Travis (05:08.387)
There's all different, do I go to the food? Now some are going to the toys, back to the food, bathroom, back to, and okay. And so about like 20 minutes in, like heart palpitations, I'm thinking, wow, Jess is probably sitting back there on her phone while they're cleaning and doing stuff in the house. I am like, my blood pressure is sky high. This was probably the most stressed out I think I've been in my life. Just, you can take one kid to a store like that it's hard, you know, but like,
Courtney (05:19.456)
I
Travis (05:37.951)
All of these guys were there and so we finally get through the line. And I mean, I had more brow sweat than like someone disarming a bomb. I mean, it was a, it was, and I felt like that was what the whole experience was. And I was, and at the end of like, was snappy, I was stressed. I was saying things to the kids out of anger and fr and I wasn't close to what I should have been in that moment either. You know, I guess it was the capacity I had, but it just.
Brian (05:45.551)
Hehehehehe
Courtney (05:48.558)
Yeah
Brian (05:49.703)
You
Hey.
Travis (06:04.021)
The fail was, hey, you know, probably not the best idea looking back. You know, that was a lot to take on alone. And yeah, so that was that was a failed moment for me.
Brian (06:14.119)
Alright, well no one got arrested so... That's good. Yeah, that's a win. Yeah, that's a total win. Feel good about yourself.
Travis (06:15.875)
No one got arrested, yes. It was a win, I guess.
Courtney (06:19.95)
Yeah, you maybe think of the movie Instant Family. If you haven't watched it, you need to see it. But there's a scene in there when they're at the store and just how the trickle effect of things being overwhelming. And yeah, it's a great, great video.
Travis (06:25.623)
Yeah.
Travis (06:31.395)
That's right.
Brian (06:32.583)
You
Travis (06:35.363)
Yeah.
Brian (06:37.639)
Courtney, you probably have never failed, so you're gonna have to make something up.
Courtney (06:40.128)
Never.
Travis (06:42.573)
Ha ha.
Courtney (06:43.886)
Yeah, you know, we have the truly every single day fails. But one thing that just sticks out to me is we had just adopted our daughter from Congo. She was 10 months old. She was the easiest baby. Like I'm talking sleeping 20 hours a day because she had been stuck in an orphanage, like not good, you know. And so we are a foster family. And so they called us just months after she'd been home. They called us. We just moved into our brand new house. We were building at the time. We were still working on it. Brand new daughter in our home. And they called us about a placement.
Brian (06:48.839)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (06:57.989)
Aww.
Travis (06:59.341)
Ha, mmm.
Brian (07:02.247)
you
Courtney (07:12.674)
And we kind of have that mentality back then of like, we just can't say no, you know? So it was, yep, yep, we'll say yes. We took this boy into our home who was six and he had fetal alcohol syndrome and was just a really hard kid and physically hitting our kids all the time. I'll never forget this one time I went up into his bedroom. He was supposed to be napping. I heard this noise. like, what is going on? So I go upstairs and I peek in the door.
Brian (07:24.037)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (07:37.266)
And he had taken the mattresses off both beds in this room, the mattresses, like the beds apart, not just, and he's a little kid and he had made a fort out of the mattresses and he took his clothes off and he was laying with his hands behind his head, like just smirking at me when I walked in the door. And I was an overwhelmed mom, was a new kid. I thought, again, we felt like we just had to say yes in a sense, but he was, in all our years fostering, he's the only kid that was in our care that we had to say, hey, he's got to go to another home. And in hindsight,
we should have known that from the beginning. And so just looking back and recognizing, we'll talk about this today too, I hope about just, you don't have to accept every placement, but we were in that, and I've heard some people call it almost like an addiction of fostering and adopting where you just say yes and yes and yes, and then you just get completely overwhelmed and having people in your sphere that recognize that and you'd be like, hey, I don't think this is a good idea. And being able to listen. And that's where like my humility, my husband's humility needs to come into play. at that point we failed, we failed in humility and we were in over our heads.
Brian (08:18.491)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (08:34.307)
Yeah, it's a great example.
Brian (08:35.237)
Yeah. Well, my wife and I, we never failed. So I'll make something up. Yeah, hypothetically. Yeah. Let me see. What can I think of? Well, there was this time where we were fostering a little boy and working on reunification and his mom and dad were pretty hardcore drug addicts. But on top of that, the father was
Courtney (08:40.556)
Yeah.
Travis (08:43.565)
Hypothetically here then.
Courtney (08:43.963)
Yeah.
Travis (08:49.485)
Ha.
Brian (09:05.039)
in a gang and he had all the tattoos and shaved head to prove it. And his mom was a prostitute stripper and always dressed like that. And we decided to take our kids, along with theirs, were, our girls were in elementary school, on a picnic with them. And so we take our kids and there's, you know, people at the other, at the picnic,
wondering what's going down between with our family, our little girls, the other couple. And but more than other people staring at us, it was our own girls who are staring at us. And you could tell they were judging our parenting right then of like, we don't think you guys are doing it great right now.
Courtney (09:36.482)
Yeah.
Travis (09:36.715)
Yeah.
Travis (10:00.707)
Hahaha
Brian (10:01.933)
should you be exposing us to this? And so, yeah, we had to go back home and debrief some of what they heard and saw. And so, yeah. So anyway, was, yeah, so, but again, reiterate, if you're gonna go and be a foster parent, you're gonna end up having moments where you're gonna feel
Courtney (10:03.456)
sorry.
Travis (10:04.099)
Ahahaha, right, yeah.
Courtney (10:09.336)
Yeah.
Travis (10:10.115)
Ha ha ha
Courtney (10:11.95)
Yeah.
Travis (10:13.699)
That's great. man.
Brian (10:31.399)
out of your element, out of your depth, you're gonna have moments of like, man, I blew it. And again, what we're gonna wanna share with you today is we all been there and you're not alone and you don't have to have it all together. so Travis, how about you lead us off on this what you don't.
Need a half.
Travis (11:01.697)
Yeah. Yeah. We already said it and we've already said it so far to set this up. It's it's the big one out of the gate is yes, this idea that you don't have to have it all together. I've been thinking a lot about this and we're kind of reflecting more on the big picture side of having it together. And, it kind of makes me land in the place that it's, it's primarily, it's about stability, being a place of stability and actually orienting our house and the way that we operate so that
Brian (11:25.479)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (11:31.213)
they don't have to feel like they have it all together. Let's actually reverse that paradigm and open that freedom up for them because I'm reminded by one of my favorite writers, the French writer Simone Weil, and she says to be rooted is perhaps the most important and least recognized need of the human soul. So what's happening here around foster care is that you're being uprooted if you're a child in foster care. And so the very thing they need the most, we all need the most is
Courtney (11:33.751)
and
Brian (11:34.439)
Mmm.
Brian (11:56.263)
Mmm. Mmm.
Travis (12:00.653)
rootedness. And so if you are going into foster care, even, you know, going to a healthy, safe, stable home, you've been uprooted from your biological family, sometimes from your school, your community, sometimes your county, there's, you know, friends, just name it down the line. So many up rootings are happening. And so for us to be so to be foster parents and to be good foster parents is first, let me let's throw out the
Brian (12:05.648)
Thank
Brian (12:18.119)
.
Travis (12:30.401)
having it all together. That's just an illusion anyway. No one has it all together. But secondarily, I think we just focus on we're trying to primarily be a place of healing and stability, not knowing where they're going next, or, you know, they won't know necessarily. so, and I, and I want hear what you guys think as well on this. But I was talking to some child welfare workers one time from Tennessee, who've, you know, been recruiting for years. And I love the line by one of them when she said, we've actually seen and this is years of
Courtney (12:33.87)
Hmm.
Courtney (12:45.498)
And I'm not going to do what you guys think as well, but I was talking to some child welfare workers in Tennessee.
And I've watched a lot of like one of these that you actually see on the computer.
Travis (13:00.267)
you know, sort of history of working in this, that it's the families that, as she said, don't have it all together and actually have an element of chaos because they can roll with the punches. You know, it's sort of the people that I think are just so uptight that, you know, we all have to look a certain way and everything has to be this. You're probably not going to do well as foster parents if you can't adjust that. But I thought to hear her say there's some freedom and actually some a little bit of that chaos.
Courtney (13:03.786)
Yeah, totally agree.
Brian (13:09.487)
Mm-hmm
Travis (13:29.655)
You know, to so yeah.
Brian (13:31.239)
Yeah, I've heard the same and we had a child welfare worker who once she pointed out to us that one of the things she hopes for, looks for is families that own horses. And I was like, well, of course, know, the, you know, the kind of therapy that horses can provide for kids and stuff. And she's like, no, that's not what I'm getting at.
Travis (13:34.307)
you
Brian (14:00.123)
She goes like, horse people, they're used to mucking stalls. I mean, they're used to like cleaning stuff up. And it was, you know, that similar sentiment to what you shared, Travis. I mean, they're kind of used to like, hey, doesn't have to, everything doesn't have to be pristine. And so if you've, if you've got, even if you've got some of your own history, I think there's something you have to be sensitive about, aware of your own stuff, because you might not have healed enough.
Travis (14:04.535)
Yeah.
Brian (14:28.451)
and the kid might trigger you from some of your own trauma. But if you have gone through it, you have had some challenges in growing up or in your life, and you've healed from it, your history could be helpful. I think a phrase that I...
use occasionally is God uses our bruises. And so if you've been bruised in life, God can use that.
Travis (15:07.299)
percent.
Brian (15:09.137)
So Courtney, what else don't families need to foster?
Courtney (15:16.398)
Yeah, one thing that comes to my mind immediately is a lot of families get into this and think, I need to provide the best life for this kiddo. Like they have to have this and this and this. And, you they didn't have these things before, so I'm going to give them everything. And, you know, time and time again, and we do, we live in a beautiful house. We have, you know, probably a lot more than most of these kids that come into our care have. As far as food comes, as far as clothing and toys, like those things, right? That is somewhat a reality for a lot of these kids that come into care into our homes.
Brian (15:20.102)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brian (15:28.964)
Hmm
Brian (15:38.395)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Courtney (15:46.636)
But if we focus on those things, like what are we really teaching them? And a big thing that I've noticed is these kids come in and they don't have that with their biofamilies. And we don't want to create that animosity. We don't want to create that uncomfortableness. We've got a kid right now in our care who's going home on Thursday for a 30 day home trial. And how can we make the holidays right now? And other times that he's been in our house for almost a year, how have we made him feel comfortable in our home to be able to go back to his home and feel comfortable and not feel like
Brian (16:14.875)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Courtney (16:16.55)
but I want what was there. You know, it's this balance that we to provide. We just have to always be thinking about it and provide that balance of, yes, we've got food on the table every single meal. Maybe they didn't have it before. That's something we're going to provide for them. Right. But it's not seconds and thirds and fourths as much food as they absolutely want all the time. You know, like and gifts like are we getting them things that their families aren't going to be able to replicate when they go home and that they're going to be angry about or we providing them things or even, you we wrap gifts on the
Travis (16:18.563)
Hmm.
Travis (16:32.771)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Courtney (16:45.422)
During the holidays, we wrap gifts and make it from their families and tell their mom, like, hey, you know, we'll help you or we'll give you money to get a gift and it'll be from you, not from us. And just things like that, that we can, we had this kid that was in our home, one of the last kids in our home and last year, his birthday came around and we were like, okay, you know, what's your dream for your birthday? He's like, well, I've never had a birthday party before. And I was like, okay, what do you want that to be? And then I had these conversations with his mom too, because again, I didn't want her to feel like,
Travis (16:53.239)
Hmm.
Brian (17:07.697)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (17:13.838)
I was the savior in this and I was doing these things that he wanted. was how can we work together to give him a birthday party that he's never had, but also not make it abundant. And for him, it was a birthday cake. He wanted a very specific birthday cake. And so we made him that specific birthday cake, but we did it together. And again, just like creating that. And I'm sure you guys have experienced that as well. Like how can we create giving, but not giving an abundance.
Brian (17:14.779)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brian (17:22.823)
Okay.
Brian (17:27.429)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (17:31.931)
that's beautiful.
Travis (17:38.883)
Mm hmm. Hmm. Boy, that's it's wise and it's it is a balancing act. mean, I do think that there's a tendency, especially from outside people. But even as foster parents of like you, the tangible, you want to, you know, it's like this, you know, grandma that wants to spoil the grandkids, you know, initially really wanting to just give them everything that you can, especially probably as new foster parents. So I wonder, like in your story, Courtney, like was that
Brian (17:42.191)
Nah, that's wise.
Brian (17:46.662)
Hmm.
Brian (18:02.727)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (18:07.871)
abundant kind of a thing that you just talked about and the recognition that, Hey, you know, we're maybe setting them up for either, you know, animosity at home or some of that was that sort of something you guys learned then along the way that like, okay, we got to be more sensitive to this or
Courtney (18:25.314)
Definitely, especially like we've in the last few years, we've mostly welcomed teenagers. And so we see it more in the teenagers. And again, not that we shouldn't be mindful of this with younger kids, but the teenagers are the ones that they really get it. And they are comparing birthday gifts and Christmas gifts and all the holiday. They're comparing and they're comparing their lives and they bring it up. When the emotions are high, they'll cry about things or bring something up that it's like, where did that come from? And it's often rooted in something that's different about our home or.
Brian (18:37.63)
Mm, mm, mm.
you
Courtney (18:52.974)
their home. this same kid, the one that was asking about the birthday thing, at one point he was in anger and he was mad and he's thrown a fit about something. And he finally threw stuff down. He's like went into his bedroom and threw everything around. He's like, I can't stand living in your cleanliness. Like your house is too put together. And I was like, wow, like I'm not comfortable in this. And again, a wake up call of, he's not comfortable in my home because I have a pretty clean home and we have rules and expectations that we follow. We all know. And he's not used to that.
Travis (19:07.563)
No. Mmm.
Brian (19:23.597)
Yeah, Uh-huh. I've had that conversation with my wife, so... It's too clean and I can't handle it. Right!
Travis (19:23.607)
Yeah, well, what?
Travis (19:29.411)
I was just gonna say that and that never goes well that never goes I've tried that too and then I was on the couch that night it's funny how that works so okay so
Courtney (19:34.392)
you
Brian (19:42.599)
wow. Well, another one that I think is a big one that comes to my mind is what you don't. You don't need to accept every placement. And I'd say the key message if I could share there is saying no is part of fostering wisely and saying no doesn't mean you don't care. And so if you, you know, when you go into foster care, you do say here's kind of
who were open to having in our home. And you can talk about a certain age range, whether you have one or a sibling set, or what, a boy or a girls or however. it was, how do I say this?
Travis (20:37.188)
Ha ha ha ha ha
Brian (20:39.387)
They'll see that and throw it in the trash.
Courtney (20:42.208)
Yeah. What? Yeah.
Travis (20:46.487)
haha
Brian (20:47.559)
They're like, that's cute. And so really what it is is, you know, they've been on the phone, they've been calling, trying to find people who can, and they start getting desperate. Like, I don't want this kid to be sleeping in the hospital or on the county office floor or whatever. And so they'll call and they'll call people who maybe you'll get one of the first calls. And it's not because they were desperate yet, but
Travis (20:49.877)
Uh-huh.
Brian (21:16.655)
It's because they like, they trust you and like it's a good family. And so you'll get this call and it won't fit what you think. And you know, you have the right to say no. Another advice and this is advice we give, you know, other people about other issues is it's always, and when you're not sure, it's always good to say, I like to think about it and just say,
You know, we'll and you want to obviously talk to the rest of your family about it Don't decide for them have a discussion and just say we'll get back to you in the next two hours to let you know something like that
Courtney (21:57.398)
Yeah, definitely. Always wise. And like I shared at the beginning, that was definitely one of our fails. And I do see it time and time again where people, especially even not always new, but those new foster families, they're just waiting for the call, waiting for the call and recognizing that our dream, my dream, my hope for the United States is that we have enough foster homes in all the areas so that when they have a kid come into care, they can call the family they really feel is the best place. Not just like you're saying, we're scrambling. We don't know what to do right now.
Brian (22:23.183)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, right.
Travis (22:26.435)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And, and I mean, think it also comes down to when, when a placement leaves too, not just in the front end, but like on as a placement leaves and maybe you're, needing to spend more time grieving, know, re you know, recovering, resting, you know, and, to sort of bide the right time to get back in and know that's okay as well.
Courtney (22:27.374)
Yeah.
Courtney (22:50.808)
Yeah, yeah.
Brian (22:51.559)
Yeah. All right, here's another one. You don't need to follow birth order. Courtney, have you ever violated that?
Courtney (23:03.438)
Well, people ask us all the time about our family. have nine kids. Our three biological kids are right in the middle. We have three older adopted and three younger. So yes, a little bit. And, you know, this is one of those questions I get from people all the time. Like, what about birth order or my youngest this age so I can only foster this age? And I'm not saying that you have to disrupt birth order, right? That's not, of course not. I'm not saying you don't have to, but you can. Like if you feel
Brian (23:05.351)
So, yes, okay.
Travis (23:13.485)
Ha ha ha ha
Brian (23:27.291)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (23:32.938)
You've really evaluated, you guys have chatted about it, your kids are on board, you feel like it's the right thing for your family. It can be a beautiful thing and it can work out. And I get a little queasy at times when I hear people say, I absolutely cannot. It's like, well, I get that because we started that way. We started saying we were only going to foster younger than our youngest and that went away. But again, I get where it comes from. But I just have a hard time when people put that hard box in those hard lines, especially when I tell people,
Brian (23:52.891)
Yep.
Travis (23:59.779)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (24:02.094)
Check out RespiteCare. These kids, like for us, we're a therapeutic home, it's mandatory that we use RespiteCare once a month. There's a lot of families in that situation like ours, and they cannot find a home for a kid to go to for a weekend or for a day or night. So open up your door for RespiteCare. Just bring a teenager in for a weekend and see, how did that go? What was the dynamics like in our family?
Brian (24:20.389)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (24:26.062)
teenagers really aren't that scary as much as I used to think they were, right? They might have some attitudes, but they also like their bedroom. So sometimes it's quiet when they go downstairs and they're in their bedroom for a while versus the neediness of a toddler. But yeah, I just encourage people to recognize that talk to somebody that has done an elder birth order, be open to it because the greatest need hands down across the country right now is homes for teenagers. And if we're all saying no, it's gonna be more of an issue.
Travis (24:28.08)
Right.
Brian (24:28.091)
Hmm
Travis (24:35.416)
Yeah.
Brian (24:36.017)
Yeah.
Travis (24:42.519)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (24:51.277)
Yeah.
Brian (24:51.781)
Yeah, my wife and I, we were following that advice and giving that advice of, and you said it Courtney, just how we said it is don't foster anyone older than your youngest. And then of course we broke that and we fostered a young man who was 17, 17 and a half when he came into our home because everybody was saying no. And our girls were
Travis (25:07.075)
No.
Brian (25:21.223)
15 and 13 at the time and It had been my most fun fostering experience and The girls treated him like a brother with you know, you know, he would walk in with his hat You know cocked and they just knock it off his head and you know tell you know tell him He needs to take a shower cuz he stinks. It was just they were bantering like just normal
Travis (25:43.031)
Nice
Brian (25:51.729)
brothers and sisters and he was just a pleasant kid. He was with us for a few months. And I know that's not always like that, but it was just proof that the birth order isn't a hard and fast rule. I think it is good general guidance, but it's not a law.
Travis (26:03.939)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (26:18.615)
Yeah, I mean, I would say the same too. And we've adopted and disrupted that. and so I live it every day in these walls. And I think what you said, Brian, so true of like, you both have said of just, it is a true reality. I mean, there is a dynamic, like, I can see, I think, you know, my daughter, Joelle, and, you know, Jay, there's a little bit more of a power struggle that at times, because that is probably part of that reality. But you also know them and you know, and there's resources and help and
Brian (26:23.291)
Yes.
Courtney (26:26.254)
Yeah.
Brian (26:27.206)
Ahem.
Brian (26:42.023)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (26:47.115)
I mean, and at times they've been, I would say, closest to siblings at times, you know? So to your point, Courtney, just, that it's not a make or break it type of thing. Yep.
Courtney (26:59.65)
And not that we know all, but I would say in our experience, harder than disrupting birth order has been having kids the same age and gender as one of our kids. That's almost been harder than the disruption of birth order. But again, that's just been our experience.
Brian (27:07.655)
Mmm. Mmm.
That's interesting. Yeah. All right. That makes sense. All right. I think we got a few more don't needs. What's another one?
Travis (27:12.973)
No, that's... huh.
Travis (27:21.507)
Well, another, and this a real, this one's a little juicy as well. So, but that you don't need your extended friends and family's blessing. Wow. That's a man news alert. All right. In one corner. Fine. There we go. Okay. So yes, right. I'm ready. I'm ready. Okay. If you're watching YouTube. Okay. So.
Brian (27:26.203)
Okay.
Brian (27:30.553)
What? Now this isn't a podcast now. It's a debate. Here we go. Weighing in 20 pounds over ideal weight. I'm the same age as Mike Tyson, so...
Courtney (27:31.276)
You
Courtney (27:37.101)
you
Courtney (27:47.982)
Let's hear it.
Travis (27:51.159)
Yeah, yeah. So, right. man. Well, we got our ears covered with the anyway. So I this and a lot of these topics are there is a attention point. I mean, a sort of a balancing act. This is definitely one I think. So, you know, I think and again, we all come from different families and
Brian (27:59.751)
You
Travis (28:18.805)
sort of our own dynamics. So it isn't a one size fits all and everything, but we're kind of talking generalities here. And so, you know, one point to be made is, know, not all friends or media family are going to, you know, understand or support the decision. it is vital. I think that we hear them out. I mean, I think all of us can relate to, to times that maybe someone had some wisdom, that wasn't coming from a place of just criticism or.
whatever, but was a really, a really wise perception of like, you know, cause maybe a dear friend of ours or family members saw like, my wife and I are having a really hard season of struggle. They know us and maybe have seen us fighting more really struggling in our marriage. and are kind of going like, look, this is, I'm, I'm worried. I'm a little concerned about that. What this could do. And that's probably, that's really valid. Like there are, so there's.
Brian (28:48.283)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (29:12.935)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Travis (29:16.227)
pieces of these perceptions, I think they're very valid. All of it's valid to listen to. It's what we do with it. It's and then, know, and then there's and then on the flip side of that is that, you know, gosh, I mean, just to be honest, like fostering can really expose stereotypes within families that you may never have come face to face with before. Stemming from fear, even racism. mean, there are there are things that will that can.
Courtney (29:41.71)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (29:45.101)
come out from people close to you that you're just like, wow. mean, and so it can expose those things where feelings can be hurt. Your relationship can really be hurt. I mean, I think even those conversations can be points of education handled, you know, at times really carefully. But so there's a lot of I guess the bottom line, what we're saying is you don't need that. They're blessing to go forward.
Brian (29:46.277)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Travis (30:15.351)
definitely heed what they're saying and take, it to account. And the last thing I'll say, and I want you guys to weigh in as well, but is I do think it's also a place where you and your, if you have a partner that you guys are on the same page of navigating this external feedback, because if, for instance, if it's maybe your wife's family and you're the one really on board as the husband or whatever,
Brian (30:34.535)
Hmm.
Travis (30:41.621)
And then she's kind of really hearing that advice or that, you know, her dad is worried about this and, you're kind of now me more conflicted. Now it went from both being in unison to now you're wanting to, but then you're then that's really going to get dicey maybe for your own relationship. And anyway, that's where some of the complexity of all this comes in. But what do you guys think?
Brian (31:04.711)
Well, you're not as dumb as I thought. Actually, it made some sense. Yes, okay. All right. High praise. High praise.
Courtney (31:06.988)
Yeah.
Travis (31:07.039)
Well, I...
Courtney (31:12.182)
Yeah.
Travis (31:14.507)
I'll take that. I'll take that. High praise. Yes.
Courtney (31:19.668)
Yeah, I do get this.
Brian (31:22.053)
Well, I would say, if you do have a partner or spouse, they need to be on the same page, though. Yeah,
Travis (31:33.665)
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Courtney (31:36.728)
And I think it's wise, again, when I do foster care classes, people, we ask this question, like, are your friends and family members on board? And every single class, we have multiple people say, no, my mom is against it because of this or that. Usually it's something rooted in fear. And I think what you said, Travis, is so wise. It's different than a friend. And I'll tell you a story. We had friends, husband actually worked for my husband. We were really good friends, went to church together years ago. And they came to us and told us they wanted to become foster parents. And we knew.
Brian (31:47.184)
No.
Brian (31:51.43)
Yes.
Courtney (32:05.442)
some stuff behind the scenes that were going on in their home, you know, that was going on. And we said, we just don't think this is the best time for you guys. They asked us to be references. They put us down as references. The county reached out to us. We told them our opinion and we gave them a very honest opinion of why and some things that we knew. And they licensed them anyways. They took a couple placements down the road. The mom drove drunk with the kids in the car. Thanks to Lord, nothing bad happened, but got their license removed. They're now divorced. Like just a sad story.
Brian (32:23.227)
Mmm, of course.
Travis (32:31.267)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Courtney (32:35.406)
We knew them, we knew things that the general public would have known about them. And I wish that they and the caseworkers would have listened to our concerns rather than just, hey, we need families, we need families. So there's a difference between we have a concern, a true genuine concern for your family based on something we know or season of life, whatever it might be, versus a family member's fearful that you're gonna bring in these bad kids or, you
Brian (32:50.32)
Okay.
Travis (32:51.682)
Yeah.
Travis (32:57.675)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's yeah, exactly. Because I and that's part of the education side too. And I think at the end of the day, like, there's nothing in life that good or that stepping into help is not some risk. mean, of course, there's a risk here. And but that's part of I think, the education and also on your own end, being preemptive to sort of set up, you know, whether it's you know, if there's concerns about
Brian (32:58.747)
Yeah, yeah.
Travis (33:24.833)
your own kids in the house and maybe you are fostering out of order or something, you have an older child come in that you are taking measures and steps to be more protective in the house than you just would otherwise. I so some of this is you're also, I think, talking about like the ways that maybe you're dissuading what was a fearful observation, but you're saying, well, here's, here's also what we're doing. I appreciate that. But at the end of the day, as someone said, living on earth is a dangerous way to spend your time.
Courtney (33:49.774)
Yeah.
Brian (33:50.951)
Hahaha
Travis (33:51.583)
So many activities in just living are at risk. They're not, you know, so.
Brian (33:56.231)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, we each got one more. So Courtney, we'll start you off with what another you don't need.
Courtney (34:05.422)
One thing I think about is my husband, grew up in a pretty abusive home and it's affected him for years. And when we first started this journey, were, again, we didn't get a lot of training on trauma. We were living in North Dakota at the time, this is 17 years ago. So we traveled around to go to conferences to learn more. Like we wanted to be educated. And one of the very first things we learned was you need healing from your past before you can foster or adopt successfully. And so we're like, boy, my husband had to do some...
Brian (34:11.815)
Hmm.
Brian (34:31.239)
Hmm.
Courtney (34:33.856)
exercises of going through, really doing some journaling and some even talking out loud with me of some things that he's gone through. Some things that I didn't even know what that point is. I mean, I knew generally, but I didn't know some certain things that he had gone through. so he went through that process. But as he's explained to me, he's still not over it today. And I do talk to families who are like, well, I had this in my past and I feel like a good spot, but I don't feel like I could ever foster because, you know, I have this in my background.
Brian (34:43.463)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (34:51.195)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Courtney (35:00.046)
Again, you know yourself, you know where you're at mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically, and your partner and spouse if you have one, ask those people. But like I said, my husband would say, it's helped him to have some experiences he had growing up because he could connect with these kids in a way that I can't connect with them. Right. He's able to have these conversations to say, hey, I went through this and I know that you are going through similar and this is what I'm still struggling with or how I've dealt with it.
Brian (35:21.383)
Mm. Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (35:26.808)
So again, but it still affects him today. So to think that he's gonna be completely healed from that, never thinking about it again, never affect his parenting or his emotions, it's just not reality, right? All the therapists in the world, that's not gonna completely remove those things. So there's that balance again, I think maybe a keyword for today's balance, right? There's a balance between being really affected by your trauma and emotionally not able to care for others versus I've gone through hard things and...
Brian (35:46.62)
Hmm.
Courtney (35:56.054)
I'm at a point of I can live in secure relationship even though that has happened.
Travis (36:01.357)
Right. Yeah, I love that. I think it's also the difference between not being healed. Because like you said, like it's impossible to be fully healed probably from, you know, severe trauma. But that's different than not being healing, being in the process of healing. Because that's the other ditch is for those that, you know, aren't even dealing with their trauma or haven't. I think we'd all say you have to be on the journey of healing.
you know, and not necessarily healed yet. Because if you're not doing that, as Brian, you kicked off this podcast episode of like, you are going to be triggered in ways that you may never have for years because kids coming from hard things and stuff also know what buttons to push and are in pain and you're going to be a recipient of that at some point.
Brian (36:37.393)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (36:49.647)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'll do mine is you don't need to be a savior. And in fact, I hope you don't have that point of view. And Travis, you you mentioned at the beginning about being rooted and foster pairing is about being present and not being perfect. And it's not about heroism. It's about being humble and
And I have a little diagram where I talk about the people involved in foster care and it's a three ring target. And in this center, the bullseye, there are heroes and it's not the foster parents, it's the kids. It's the kids who've been in battle, wounded warriors. And the next group out are the foster families and I've labeled them as the healers. I personally,
I like that moniker for foster families is you're not coming in trying to save anyone, but you are taking a posture of, want to provide an environment, a tone, words, security that gives us youth, this child, a place that's safe enough where healing can happen. And you don't have to be a therapist. And again, if you have gone through some trauma like...
according to your husband has, there are some things that God can use your bruises to help in that healing. But even just providing that place of where a kid feels safe and there are some boundaries and those kinds of things, healing can start happening. so just create
Go in with those expectations. If you go in like, hey, I'm going to have a cape on my back and win the day, go back to the starting line and then rethink your motivation.
Courtney (38:59.576)
Yeah, without a doubt.
Brian (39:02.469)
All right, Travis, you're gonna close us out with our last You Don't Need.
Travis (39:09.833)
this episode maybe we'll have another one of more don't needs but yeah yeah but yeah so i think kind of the last one to maybe close on is you know more of really a practical thing but you don't need to be a stay at home parent just be present when you're home the so we we know that you know and a lot of people don't know that you know they're like you can have child care you can you know yeah and cortney you could speak to you know
Brian (39:10.471)
Yeah, right.
Courtney (39:11.586)
Yeah.
Brian (39:24.967)
Hmm.
Travis (39:39.509)
And every state's different probably on their child welfare policies. But as far as like, you know, sitters and being trained or how that looks or whatever to be, or then the respite care and things of that, but that you don't, this isn't on your shoulders 24 seven, with, with work and other things where you know, you can do those things. I, fact, I always go to an example of I've got a, a really good friend who's a great single foster parent dad, and he's a small business owner. So he's, he's juggling all of that and able to do that.
Brian (40:07.079)
Okay.
Travis (40:08.909)
But yeah, you do have, I mean, do you want to speak to anything practically about support Courtney or?
Courtney (40:16.044)
No, I think this kind of ties into the one about you don't need to accept every placement. There are certain placements and there is some reality. Like, hey, and this is what I people in classes too. You say you only want infants, but you also work full time and it's really hard to find childcare. That might not be a reality, right? It might not be the best placement for you. So being mindful of what is going to work. Yeah, you can work, but what's the schedule going to look like? Because you do have to be committed as well. You don't want to take a placement and then a month down the road be like, well, I don't have time for this.
Brian (40:31.719)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (40:45.804)
So again, talking to foster families, what does a week really look like? Talking to one that works if you work. What does your week look like? How does this work for you? What's your support system? And knowing those things ahead of time so you can be successful when you're at work and then trying to be present at home at the same time, you know, when you're at home, like you said.
Brian (41:03.527)
Well, Travis and Courtney, again, grateful for your wisdom and helping people think through some of their assumptions of what they have to have in order to do this and you saying, no, you don't need that. And so if you're listening to this and you've heard something that you're like, gosh, I did think I needed this and now I'm hearing something different, then I hope that inspires you to say, okay, I'm ready to take my.
next small step and that next small step might be talking to family, might be signing up for a class, who knows what what in the world is going on? Was that your gunk? And then and so you can find more insights at our website americaskidsbelong.org and and we'll probably like
Travis (41:45.923)
scare me.
Brian (42:01.713)
Travis said, we might have a part three to this at some time. again, Courtney and Travis, thank you for your wisdom.
Travis (42:10.838)
See you guys.
Courtney (42:11.628)
Yep, good conversation.
Brian (42:11.909)
All right. Bye.
Travis (42:14.723)
Bye.