The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
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Jen Fisher (Jen): Hi, WorkWell listeners. I’m really excited to share that my book Work Better Together is
officially out, conversations WorkWell guests and feedback from listeners like you inspired this book. It’s
all about how to create a more human-centered workplace, and as we return to the office for many of
us, this book can help you move forward into postpandemic life with strategies and tools to strengthen
your relationships and focus on your well-being. It’s available now from your favorite book retailer.
When it comes to art, I will admit I am more of a passive onlooker than a creator. But art isn’t just
beautiful and interesting to look at, it also serves as an important tool to help us enhance our
observation and problem-solving skills. Sharpening our perception not only changes the way we look at
art, but it can also change the way that we see the world.
This is the WorkWell podcast series. Hi, I’m Jen Fisher, chief well-being officer for Deloitte, and I’m so
pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things well-being. I’m here with Amy Herman. Amy is
a lawyer and art historian who uses works of art to sharpen observation, analysis, and communication
skills. She is also the author of the bestselling book, Visual Intelligence: Sharpen Your Perception, Change
Your Life, and the book Fixed: How to Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving. Amy, welcome to the
show.
Amy Herman (Amy): Thanks so much for having me. I’m thrilled to be here.
Jen: Well, I’m so excited for this conversation. We haven’t had a conversation like this yet on the
WorkWell podcast. So, I’m ready to dive in, but first tell us a little bit about yourself and how you
became passionate about art.
Amy: Sure. So, my name is Amy Herman, and I am the founder and president of my company called The
Art of Perception. And I throw this out there at the beginning of all my intros, I am a recovering lawyer. I
just get that out there. I’m a lawyer in recovery, and I’m also an art historian. And I like to think that I
took the practical aspects of each of those disciplines legal analysis and visual analysis. Because I hated
being a lawyer, I decided to do something with my legal education and combine it with all the skills from
my training as an art historian to create my company 21 years ago. It’s called The Art of Perception. And
when I left the law, I became the head of education at The Frick Collection, here in New York City, which
is a real gem of an Art Museum. It’s this tiny, amazing art collection. And while I was there, I started this
program, sort of the first iteration of what I do and it wasn’t my idea, and it wasn’t rocket science. The
idea was to take medical students out of their clinical setting, bring them to an Art Museum, teach them
how to analyze works of art, so that when they go back to the hospital in the clinical setting, they’ll be
better observers of their patients. They were doing it at Yale and with Yale’s permission I started it. And
in 2004, the whole thing exploded. It appeared on the front page of a big financial newspaper here in
New York City, and I got calls from all over the world and people said, come teach us how to see. And I
thought, wow, maybe there’s some real skills in this. So that’s what I’ve been doing ever since.
Jen: That’s pretty amazing. So, when it comes to art, are you are you an artist, are you a connoisseur of
art? How would you describe your relationship or your passion for art?
Amy: Let’s just say that I am ferociously untalented when it comes to creating art…bold, underscore,
and italicize ferocious. I wish I had the creative gen. But what I do love to do and I’m really very
fortunate because I know this doesn’t happen to everybody. I had an aha moment in college, 1986,
that’s how old I am. And I was in an art history seminar, and the professor put these two paintings up
and they literally took my breath away. I thought somebody created those, somebody painted those
with canvas and paintbrushes and my world was never the same. And I love, love, love looking at art. It
moves me in a way that nothing else does. But I also realize that it doesn’t move a lot of people, but I
know that art is so powerful. So, what I’d like to think that I’ve done in my work has channel that power
of art and brought it to people who would never ever think of looking at art as part of their work.
Jen: So, I want to dive into that, because I’m one of those people and I would definitely say much more
of a passive onlooker when it comes to art, not that I don’t appreciate it, but I have no idea how to do it,
therefore, I guess, I’ve never paid much attention. But one of your books is called Visual Intelligence. So,
tell us what that is.
Amy: Visual Intelligence it’s two things. It’s seeing what other people don’t. That’s my first definition.
The ability to see what other people don’t. And visual intelligence is the ability to filter out the noise. We
are bombarded in the world we live in right now, we’re on a 24/7 news cycle, we have social media, we
have texts, we have emails, we have phone, constant, constant, constant and our brains are physically
incapable of processing all that information. So, by giving people the tools and teaching them what I call
visual intelligence, I teach them how to filter out that noise. And the title of my presentation when I give
it live is called The Art of Perception: Seeing What Matters Now, that’s what visual intelligence is, seeing
what matters now to you. And when I have groups like you of people who say, yeah, we’re going to look
at art. What’s in it for me? My answer is always the same, after spending time with me, learning to look
at works of art and mining it as data, I promise you’ll leave the session thinking differently about the
work that you do and the world you engage in.
Jen: So, take me through that. Say, you and I are standing next to a painting at an art museum, walk me
through this process.
Amy: Sure. I’m going to add one more person to the party. So, it’s going to be me and you, and let’s say
one of your colleagues. So, I’m standing with you at the Met in front of a sculpture. Let’s say the
sculpture is a horse, and I say to both of you, I want you to each spend 10 seconds looking at this
sculpture of a horse. And the two of you, you think god, 10 seconds is an eternity what is there to see.
But when you realize 10 seconds, I have to look, I’m going to have to be able to talk about this, you
spend 10 seconds looking at the sculpture. And then I ask each of you to describe that sculpture to me
as if I could not see what you were looking at. I can almost guarantee that each of you will give me
almost an entirely different version of what it is that you’re looking at. And I say to you, you know, that’s
fine, here in the museum where it’s the three of us and the sculpture of a horse, but what happens at
the crime scene? What happens in the operating room? What happens in the boardroom? What
happens at the department meeting? When you have this assumption that everybody there sees things
the way you do, because you’ve worked together for 20 years, you’ve been through problems, you’ve
been through hell and back, when the opposite is true. No two people see anything the same way and
we have to renew that concept all the time to remember to articulate what we see and what we
perceive, because the person sitting next to us does not see the same things. As someone said to me
this week, your assumptions are like windows on the house. When you clean them it’s amazing what
you’ll be able to see.
Jen: I love that. So visual intelligence, I guess is it helping us see things more clearly or is it helping us to
see things the way that other people see things or is it both?
Amy: No. Well, some of that, but what it really comes down to, you know, what it comes down to is
effectively communicating what it is that you observe. Because 99% of the people that are in my class,
they’re already good. They already have good, if not extraordinary observation skills, that’s not the
problem. The problem as I perceive it is in the consistent breakdown of the effective communication of
what it is, we observe. So, something gets lost from our seeing eyes to our speaking mouths to our
texting fingers and our typing thumbs. And I don’t know what’s getting lost, but something really getting
lost. Have you ever heard someone speaking and you say to yourself they can’t possibly mean what
they’re saying? They can’t possibly mean it. And so, what I want to do is make that connection more
solid and say I’m going to say exactly what it is that I see and I’m going to not say what I don’t want to
say. So, what I focus on is that connection between seeing and communicating. That’s where the
problem is. It’s not that we don’t see well. What I want a single person to do, you and your colleague
before you talk about the horse is to pause for two seconds and say, let me make sure I’m saying exactly
what it is that I want to convey, because one thing that’s constant, pre-pandemic during the pandemic
and after the pandemic, time is your most precious commodity. Nobody has time to waste. So, let’s get
it right the first time, and if looking at works of art can help you do that, I’m all for it.
Jen: I’m already starting to think about art differently. So, you’re using two words here that I want to
clarify. You are saying seeing and observing, so how is seeing different from observing?
Amy: Everybody sees, you know, well, people that are not visually impaired see. We look around. We
see what’s around us, but when you observe something, it catches your attention. So, it catches your
attention, and you think about it, you focus. What happens when you become a nerd to things around
you. You stop observing around you. And so, when I give an assignment, if I have sessions over two days.
When we go home at the end of the first day, I say to my classes alright, tomorrow when you come
back, I want you to come back with one thing that you went out of your way to observe that you didn’t
see the day before. And you’d be amazed when people come back with, because the majority of us go
from point A to point B every day, point A to point B and back from point B to point A. And the longer
we do that, the more hesitant we would become to look at points C, D, and E. And there’s a lot to see
out there that can actually enrich the journey from A to B. So, all I’m doing is augmenting people’s
lenses and giving them the tools to communicate what they see when they augment their lens.
Jen: And so how does observing help us in problem solving in our jobs and our lives, in the business
world.
Amy: Well, I’m going to add to your question, and I’m going to say how does observing works of art
translate back, how’s that? How does looking at works of art translate to solving business problems. I’ll
start by saying that. I think the best things happen on the exit ramp of our comfort zone. When I take
you to the exit ramp of your comfort zone and say look, we’re all on a level playing field. Nobody has to
know anything about art. You don’t even have to like art. All I want you to do is engage and look and
follow the assignments here. When you’re all at Ground Zero, there’s nothing threatening. You can look
at the art together. You can laugh about it. You can say what you see and then when I show you what
you missed, you don’t feel dumb because nobody is an art expert. But then when you go back to your
job, you say, okay, here’s the case we’re working on, and then you step back for a second and think is
there anything that I might be missing. And then you pose the question to your colleagues. Hey look,
here’s the case is there anything any of us is missing and you’ll be amazed at what you hear, because no
two people see anything the same. And somebody may voice an observation that wouldn’t have even
crossed your brain. And what happens in the end you come up with a better solution to your problem,
because you’ve had more insights and more perspectives. Quite selfishly multiple perspectives make for
better decision making. So, when you’re looking at a piece of art together and you say, oh, I didn’t even
notice that, you know, dog in the corner. Well, what happens back in the office when someone tells you,
you know the client’s top priority is X, what if it had slipped your mind. And that colleague reminds you
of that, and all of a sudden, wow, I can make a totally better presentation because you reminded me of
what the client’s top priority is. So, it’s about looking how to ask questions, understanding that no two
people see the same thing, and being able to incorporate that into solutions to problems that you’re
facing in a business context.
Jen: You’re probably going to cringe when I tell you this, but…
Amy: If I do, you can’t see me.
Jen: That’s true, so you’ll have to make an audible… So, where my head is going is, you know,
throughout our lives and I should actually remember this, but there’s like in school and on social media
there’s always like a picture of something, and half the population sees a grandmother and the other
half of the population sees, I’m going to get it wrong, but I’m just going to say a giraffe. And then there
was one a few years ago that like half the population saw a blue dress and the other way saw gold dress.
So am I on the right path here or like can you…
Amy: Okay, you are. Let’s put it this way, you’re definitely on the right track. Those examples that you’re
giving us are optical, so let’s bring up the dress example, and it was everywhere on the Internet. I saw
blue dress, my son saw gold dress, and we agreed to disagree because neither of us was right, neither of
us was wrong, even though the dress was blue. And what that comes down to is a rods and cones issue
in the brain. How we see color? But in a bigger world, in the overarching goal, the exercises were good,
and they reminded us that no two people see anything the same way even when it’s abundantly clear to
you that the answer is so and so, you can never assume that what’s obvious to you is obvious to
somebody else. It just isn’t that way, so here’s the example. I had a job right after I left the Frick
Collection before I went out on my own to lead The Art of Perception, and the department head called
all 10 of us in and said, okay, we’ve got a problem here. We have a problem in this department and
before he told us how he was going to solve the problem he said, I want to go around this little
conference room and I want each of you to state what you believe the problem is. And you would be
amazed at the number of problems that were raised at that meeting. And this guy, everybody went into
the meeting when we heard we had a problem to discuss thinking we were going to discuss his or her
particular problem and there were probably 10 different problems to discuss. So, have you ever gone
into a meeting and come out and say what was that about? Of course, you have, everybody has. And so,
the ability to communicate what it is we see, what we notice, what we perceive, what we think is
important, and what’s capturing our attention is really what’s important to come out of this idea of
looking at art is understanding that no two people see anything the same way. And if I’m going to help
solve a problem, it is incumbent upon me to be able to articulate thoroughly and using economy of
language, my perception of a certain problem.
Jen: And so, you mentioned earlier all of the distractions in our life, particularly from technology. So,
how does, I mean, is it all bad, how does technology impact our visual intelligence?
Amy: You know what, let’s just all agree that technology is here to stay. It’s not going anywhere. It’s
really not going anywhere. And so, we’ve shaped our lives around technology. And so, the idea is to look
up from your screens when you need to look up from your screens, when you need to rest your eyes,
and when you need to think about something. As cops told me years ago, there is no substitute for a
pair of human eyes attached to a human brain. Nothing can replicate human eyes attached to a human
brain, and we need to remember that is our best weapon, that is our best source. And when you’re
having a real problem, look up from your screen, think, look, and engage, and you’ll get insights that are
right in front of you that you might not have seen otherwise.
Jen: Recently, there was a picture that was going around about it a gentleman, I think he was watching a
golf game, and everybody had their head down looking at their technology, and he was standing there
enjoying himself and drinking a beer.
Amy: I love that, I love that, and you know something I’m going to just throw this in there because it
might not have the same take away as the guy on the golf course drinking his beer, but I have a class for
a police department on Thursday at the Met, and I needed to go prepare today. And I was sort of
harried this morning. I thought it’s 95 degrees I have to go to the Met. I have to run around. I spent
about an hour and a half running around the collections, picking the paintings and sculptures and
photographs that I was going to use, didn’t consult my phone, and just looked and decided what’s going
to make for a fruitful conversation. And I left the Met in so much better of a mood than I went in. And I
was working, you know, I had to put the images together because I’m going to use them on Thursday,
but there were all these new works of art and I thought, oh this is so cool. I love this. Let me figure out
why I love it. Let me figure out how I’m going to use it, and I engaged my brain in a way that my laptop
wasn’t with me. My phone was with me, but I really wasn’t using it. And it was just amazing. It was really
incredible.
Jen: So is there any way that we can use technology to help improve our visual intelligence or is the way
to look away?
Amy: No, I think that we can use technology in a way, and this is how, when we’re facing problems, I
have boiled down my new book about problem solving. When you are facing a new problem or a new
conflict, you need to ask three questions and sometimes technology can help you answer the questions.
The first question is what do I definitively know? What do I see and what do I know? The second
question is, what don’t I know? Well, how do I identify what I don’t know? You need to identify what’s
missing, and that’s where technology can come into play. And the third question logically follows, if you
have the opportunity to get more information, what do you need to know? So, it’s what do I know?
What don’t I know? And if I have the opportunity to get more information, what do I need to know? And
it’s this really wonderful amalgamation of what do I know from seeing, what do I know from observing,
what do I know from discussions, but what don’t I know and what can I look up and use my technology
to the best of my ability to help solve the problem. Because in the end, it’s not whether I see the
problem or I look up the answer to the problem, it’s how do I get to an effective and sustainable
solution. And whatever resources you need you should use, but I want to remind people how rich of a
resource we have in our own vision, observation, and perception.
Jen: And this is from your book Fixed, you talk about how an artist creates a work of art as a template
for problem solving. So, is that the template and can you kind of talk me through the process that like an
artist would go through?
Amy: Sure, the template that I just gave you is actually something I learned from the intelligence
community about solving problems. But I applied it in the book quite a bit, and I applied it in Visual
Intelligence. The way that I use the artist process in Fixed, as I told you at the beginning of our
discussion, you and I have something in common, we are ferociously untalented and uncreative when it
comes to making things, but it doesn’t mean that I am not in awe of the artist process. Like when I look
at a painting, I think how does somebody even do that? How do you even begin to do that? And what I
did in the book is I took the artist process apart. I said, how do you get from ideation, inspiration to a
final work of art in a museum. And I traced the process using one work of art that was created in 1819
and it memorialized a horrible event in France this ship running aground, and people being thrown
overboard and had to float on a raft for 15 days, and they descended into cannibalism. It was a terrible
event and Jericho painted the picture and it was scandalous, and it made the government look bad and
blah blah blah. But what I did is I said, how did Jericho come up with this idea and how did he go from
inspiration to getting the materials to learning to paint dead bodies, to exhibiting at the Louvre. The
painting is on view at the Louvre. So, I broke the book into three big sections, prep, draft, and exhibit.
And each of those sections has subdivisions like setting deadlines and watching out for red herrings and
things that you can do within prepping, putting your ideas together; drafting, putting your ideas on
paper, throwing things away, starting again; and finally, what is exhibit involved? How are you going to
present your ideas and your solutions to the world? And it’s in such general terms that I think it’s really
applicable to a whole host of issues, problems, and disciplines.
Jen: So yeah, we’ve talked about observation, and you’ve mentioned a few times perception. So, let’s
talk about perception, what is it and is perception a skill?
Amy: I believe that observations of the five senses inform our perception. And perceptions inform our
inferences. So, observations are basically what we see, hear, smell, taste, and feel. And when we see
things that informs our observations, here’s an example. When you walk into a restaurant, if something
smells really good and you hear people laugh and you think, I want to eat here. The food smells good.
People are having a good time. I want to be part of that. You wouldn’t necessarily know that from
standing outside and just seeing the restaurant. And your inference is, if the food smells good and
people are laughing, they’re enjoying their dinner. They’re having a good time. And I too will have a
good time. But we need to stop and listen. I mean, it becomes automatic that observations inform
perceptions and perceptions inform inferences. But when people start the conversation by saying, I
don’t think we should eat here. Well, how did you get there? Maybe I do want to eat here, why don’t
you want to eat there? Back it up and say, well, you know, nobody’s really laughing, nobody’s enjoying
themselves, and half the tables are empty, back it up. And so that’s how I differentiate among the words
observation, perception, and inference and why not think about food and restaurants as a way to
explain it.
Jen: Because everyone can relate to that.
Amy: And if I can just throw this in there, I was working in London at the beginning of last week and I
arrived at 9:00 o’clock and it was 4 o’clock my time, but I had to go to dinner and I had to do exactly
what I just said. I had to decide between an Indian restaurant and a Chinese restaurant. It was a
neighborhood in London. I didn’t know, the concierge recommends it, he said oh, they’re both good and
I was just in a place. I was tired. I was jet lagged. I was hungry, and I couldn’t make a decision. So, I used
my visual intelligence. Where were people laughing? Where were more tables full? I put my head in,
what smelled good, and I made a really nice decision.
Jen: I mean that’s such a great example. And so, like if people want to improve their observation and
perception skills, what are some things they can do.
Amy: Sure, I practiced this with my son, who’s now 19, and he was raised here in New York City. And he
would come home from school and, poor kid had to grow up with the art of perception. Not a normal
mother, not a normal upbringing, always going to art museums. And I said to him, tell me one thing you
saw today that captured your attention. One thing that was out of the ordinary. And sometimes he
would have to think and then he was onto the game. And he would see something early in the day and
remember to tell me at the end of the day what it was. But he would tell me something that sort of
caught his eye or something that was unexpected or sort of overturned his expectations and that would
lead to whole conversations. And I think it makes you so much more interesting when you talk about
something that people don’t expect to talk about.
Jen: Yeah, for sure. So how could we use these skills to help one another in the workplace?
Amy: I’m going to give you a really overarching, it’s going to sound like a platitude, but it’s not. I’m going
to say, and it’s at the risk of TMI, but it’s at the risk of sounding corny, but what I’m going to say is
default to your humanity. Because before we are doctors and patients and lawyers and clients and
financial advisors, we are all human. And the example that I’m going to give you again at the risk of TMI,
but it’s had such an impact on my life. In my nonexistent spare time, I am something called a vigil
volunteer, and what I do is I spend time with people who are actively dying so that nobody dies alone,
and it’s not nearly as morbid as it sounds. There are just circumstances where people are in Hospice and
their families can’t be there. So, I fill in the cracks and I live near a Hospice, and I just go and spend time
with people that are dying. But the reason I tell you that is because when I walk into the room, most of
these people can’t talk to me. And I have to use my visual intelligence and look around and say, do they
have family members? Are they wearing their own pajamas? Are there flowers next to the bed? Are
there cards? Is their favorite mug next to the bed? And just looking around gives me insight and
information into the lives of these people that helps me be a better person sitting with them at the end
of their life. And again, I don’t say that morbidly and it’s not depressing, and it’s not selfless or any of
that. I just say that when we stop and pause and engage and look at the information that’s really
available to us, so in a business sense too, know who’s on your team, who’s going through a divorce,
who just lost their, you know, their mother in law to COVID, know all that and it makes you a better
person, a better problem solver, and gets people to engage when they know you’re engaging with them,
crazy.
Jen: Well, I mean it sounds like being human, but we’ve forgotten how to do that.
Amy: We have, and you know what the reason I love art so much, it is not only the greatest chronicle of
our time, it’s a celebration of all that humanity creates. All art is created by humans, and it puts people
in this sense, as I said, going back to my day in college, oh my god, somebody created this. And it opens
up a conversation that we’re not just talking about revenue, profit, and loss, we just broaden our lenses
a little bit to bring other issues in and it gives us the ability to see that initial issue just in a different light
and from a different perspective.
Jen: So tell me I guess what about your books, I mean, is there anything that surprised you or that you
didn’t expect in terms of kind of reactions or stories that people, as an author myself I’m always
interested in this, what resonated with people or what did somebody go and do that maybe surprised
you or you didn’t expect that’s just a great story.
Amy: Well, two things that come to mind. One is I’m always so interested to hear how people have used
this methodology, whether they’ve you know taken part in one of my presentations or workshops or
they’ve read the book. And so many people have contacted me and said, you know, I did this, or I didn’t
do this. And this is what the outcome was, and I think it was really different after I thought about doing
this with you, but the two things that come to mind, first was I was contacted by an emergency room
doctor just last week and she said, you know, we’re about to convert from a Community Hospital to a
trauma center and we’re falling apart at the seams. We’re just not communicating, and we have this
influx of patients, and we need you. And I thought, are you kidding me? I’m an art historian and I’m a
lawyer, what can I possibly do to help you put an emergency room back together? But she said, you’re
all about fixing problems and she said my emergency room is teeming with problems and I need help
from the communications between the paramedics and the intake physicians and nurses and the
patients’ families. And I’m going to this emergency room and I’m going to work with the entire staff
based on what she read in the book that was #1. And #2, I just found out last week that my book was
named at one of the top 10 books on JP Morgan Summer Reading list and I was so honored and thrilled
and sort of taken back because I thought I never really thought about this as a business book. But to
have JP Morgan’s imprimatur to say this is a book that, you know, it was clear to me that they weren’t
valuing the book for its look at art, but how looking at art can help people across the professional
spectrum solve problems. And it’s just been this aha moment for me, I mean, as I said I’m honored and
thrilled, but all these people that JP Morgan reaches out to worldwide saying here the 10 books you
should read this summer, mine is one of them. I’m like woohoo, but that’s kind of crazy that this simple
methodology of thinking about the artist process and looking at works of art can help people in all kinds
of professions, even beyond the ones that I work with help them solve their problems. So, I’m honored
and humbled and just feel really so good about the sort of validation of what this methodology can do?
Jen: Well congratulations, I mean, I can completely understand that and what I’ve heard you say is that
yes, the methodology is about helping people solve problems better, easier, faster, perhaps, but it’s also
about improving our communication skills and to me, I feel like that’s kind of the core of it, because
everything is about communication.
Amy: That is exactly right, and to share a phrase that one of my colleagues shared with me that I’ve
carried through the pandemic. It’s a Latin phrase festina lente, and it means to make haste slowly. We
all have to make haste. We all need to cross the finish line. We all have deadlines, but if we take the
time to make sure that we are in sync with each other and that we are communicating with each other
and that we’re all on the same page and we’re taking in multiple perspectives, we’re going to cross that
finish line in a much, much better way than just because we race the clock to get there. And so, I’ve
been trying to be really conscientious of practicing festina lente, especially during the pandemic.
Jen: I love that. So, kind of along the same lines, and obviously without, you know, naming any client
names, are there any, I mean, just interesting examples about how your students, used your teachings
and you talked about working with the police department, anything that just kind of blew you away and
that maybe you didn’t expect that somebody took and used it to solve a problem.
Amy: Yeah, I’m going to share a funny example with you that I put in the book. I was hired by the NBA to
do a session for the managers, all the security managers at the basketball games. You know who they
are. They’re really tall guys, with a wire in their ear, and they’re watching the players, they’re watching
the audience, they’re listening to their GMs in their ear, and they’re making sure that the game goes
forward, and everybody is safe and happy. And you can imagine how much is going on in their heads.
And I was invited to speak at their conference in Las Vegas, and here I am the opening speaker and I’m
standing between them and their big lavish cocktail party at the end of the day. And this woman
introduces me and says, yeah, Amy Hermen, here from New York she’s going to show us how to look at
works of art to help you do your job. And these guys, it was like they’re signal to start scrolling on their
phones, like are you kidding me this woman is coming to show us works of art. And so, I got up there
and I said we’re going to do an instant replay here, I’m going to have you for two hours. Yeah, we’re
going to look at art, but I’m in charge and you’re going to leave here thinking differently about the game
and your work. And all of a sudden, they were looking up like who is this woman? And I put up a slide
and they had to introduce themselves to each other, and one had to close their eyes and describe the
painting to the person next to them. They were all in. They were so all in that not only did I go to their
cocktail party with them and half of them were retired New York City cops. It was one of the best
sessions I ever did and it was just this realization that yeah, we all have something to learn if we step out
of our boxes and working with those NBA security guys they were so awesome, but just from the get go
their biases you could see their bias all over their face, like are you kidding me this woman in a blue suit
from New York City is going to show me pictures and you want that to help me do my job, and when
they opened their eyes and they were willing to go all in, I know they all left differently because I spend
the rest of the evening at their cocktail party with them, and none of us will ever be the same after that
session.
Jen: Well, that’s awesome. Well Amy, thank you so much for all of the wisdom that you have shared
with us today. I know that I’ve gotten a lot out of it, and I really enjoyed this conversation, and I am
excited, curious, a little bit scared to try some of these things myself.
Amy: Well, I’m cheering you on and I’m going to leave you with a quote from Henry James this is what
you can do, Henry James said, “try to be the person on whom nothing is lost.” And that’s not scary, you
can do that.
Jen: I will try. I got to put my phone down first.
Amy: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you.
Jen: I’m so grateful Amy could be with us today to talk about how we can use art to sharpen our
observation and problem-solving skills.
Thank you to our producers, Rivet 360 and our listeners. You can find the WorkWell podcast series on
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Please reach out to me on LinkedIn, my profile is under the name Jen Fisher or on Twitter at Jenfish23.
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The information, opinions, and recommendations expressed by guests on this Deloitte podcast series
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