Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Deep conversations with underrated lawyers.
Priyanka, I am very excited to have you on here and it's been so much fun to have her call to set up some background on your history and your trajectory here. So excited to jump into your episode.
Priyanka Timblo:Coram, it is a pleasure to be on with you. I have had a blast in our last couple of chats, getting to know you, talking about my story, thinking about my story, whatever that is. And I know that whatever's going to come out in the next two hours is also going be somewhat new. So I'm excited to see how this goes and how it evolves.
Khurram Naik:Okay, so we'll jump in from the beginning because I think there's that the chronology is really interesting. So you're an associate, you're up Paul Weiss, very strong litigation practice, and you're comfortable, you're doing well there, keep on cruising along there, but you assessed there was something missing and then you did something about it. So what was missing and what did you do about it?
Priyanka Timblo:The thing that was missing was I felt like I wasn't getting to practice and demonstrate the thing I was best at, which is being on my feet, arguing on my feet, taking witnesses, you know, that sort of stand up lawyering. And I say that because, you know, with some trepidation because I was getting so much else. I learned what excellent lawyering looks like there. I was able to work with incredible lawyers. I was able to understand litigation soup to nuts, right?
Priyanka Timblo:And all parts of discovery. And I would not be the lawyer I am today without all the incredible training I got there and mentorship and friendships that I still have today. But through that, and I think part of it was that on the hard days, right? It just felt like, oh, you know, I felt like I was not, my trajectory a bit off, I guess, so to speak, right? I wasn't getting to do the thing that I'm best at.
Priyanka Timblo:I was getting to do things I'm good at. I'm very good at managing discovery and managing large document productions and second sharing depositions. And I'm good at all that stuff. I love it. It made me the lawyer I am today, but I didn't feel like my trajectory was on track to be the kind of lawyer that in my heart I felt like that was what I wanted to do.
Priyanka Timblo:I wanted to be a trial lawyer, you know? And it almost felt like a ridiculous thing to hope for because it's big law, right? Like, nobody gets those experiences. What are you talking about? You know, if you're doing well at what you're doing, that's great.
Priyanka Timblo:And there was a very loud voice in my head that said, you should just be really grateful for the amazing experiences that you're having and the relationships you're having and this other thing that you want, it's pie in the sky, you know? But I think it kept gnawing at me, right? And I had an experience which was the New York State Bar Association antitrust training course. It was like a three day NISPA, they held a three day trial training course. Of course, Paul Weiss being really committed to developing their associates, that there was an opportunity for me and some others to go and do this.
Priyanka Timblo:And I went and it was literally practicing direct examinations and cross examinations. And they would record you on video doing them. And there would be a panel of very accomplished antitrust trial lawyers watching you. So you got two sets of feedback. Feedback from the people in the room, the panel watching you do your mock direct or mock cross, and by the way, mock opening and mock closing.
Priyanka Timblo:And then you got to take that recording and go into a room with another very accomplished antitrust trial lawyer who was not the one of the ones who just saw you and watch your tape. Right? And so I guess I, I got a little first I got a taste of it. And, and, you know, once you taste the blood, you can't go back. But also I got some feedback, right?
Priyanka Timblo:That you actually have this, you know, that not only did it feel natural, but I looked natural. And then that I was like, okay, I got a, you know, I, this is my one wild and precious life. What am I doing with it? And it inspired me to say, I'm going to work these hours and I'm going to do this law thing. Then let me try to put myself in a place where I'm doing more the the part of it that makes me come alive.
Priyanka Timblo:Right? Which is are those witness examinations, which is standing up and speaking extemporaneously to some extent, but also prepared to some extent. Right? Having to think on my feet. Because I'd gotten this feedback that I had the promise and that was what it sort of confirmed to me what I knew about my own skill set and that that was where I made a choice.
Priyanka Timblo:That I said, I think I need to, you know, as amazing as my experience in Big Law has been, and again, like I said, that is where I saw what excellent lawyering looked like. And that is a standard that I have in my head from Paul Weiss because there are just incredible, excellent lawyers. I said to myself, I got to find a place that's smaller, where they're just going to give me more opportunities, right? It's not quite the big law structure and I'm going to be able to actually take a deposition, right? Actually argue in court and maybe actually do a trial one day.
Priyanka Timblo:And even that felt like a pipe dream at the time.
Khurram Naik:So that was- So how did you make that happen? So once you assess, okay, I need to find a place that's going to set me up to exercise this skill set, how did you implement that?
Priyanka Timblo:I found a recruiter. And I actually talked to several. And I'll say this, Coram, all recruiters are supportive, I would say. I went to a Canadian law school. I had a great clerkship from Canada, but it wasn't an American law school and it wasn't a federal clerkship.
Priyanka Timblo:And I literally had someone tell me, you should look for like a biz dev job. You should be off track to that. I mean, that was told to me. Okay. So I actually had to find someone who believed in me and I did.
Priyanka Timblo:They were not the most experienced person, but I was like, this person believes in me and this is who I'm going to go with.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. And then, so when you're evaluating firms, then what was your criteria? So you knew that you want get some trial exposure. What led you to Ultima to Whole Wall?
Priyanka Timblo:So I didn't know about it myself independently. It was my recruiter that suggested it and credit to him. And when I looked it up, was like, this seems really cool. It's new, right? This was 2017 at the time, and Hallwell, Schuster and Goldberg was founded in 2012.
Priyanka Timblo:So it's five years in, it's a baby firm. That appealed to me a lot, right? And I loved the fact that it was founded by a judge. And then I kind of went online and looked at some of the partners and they seemed on the younger side. And I found that exciting too, right?
Priyanka Timblo:I said this place looks like it's special or different. And then I went in and my first interview was with Judge Hawwell. And I will tell you this: I came out of that interview saying, If they give me an offer, I'm going to take it. Just because I could tell that this was personal to him, you know, founding this firm. And the conversation that we had was more about how you think about the law and why you love it and how you- I think he even said, you know, we've talked about finding the golden thread between cases when you've finally done enough research and how exciting that moment is.
Priyanka Timblo:And I was like, I want to be with these people. And that was just after meeting him. And then I came back for a full round after that, and I met with two partners and two associates. The two associates I met with at that time are now partners. And coming out of that, I was even more convinced.
Priyanka Timblo:Was just like, these people are, they're all incredibly accomplished beyond belief and they could go anywhere. But they chose to come here and start something, you know, somewhat untested five years in new boutique when I'm sure they could go to any law firm, any big law firm and be partners. But they're coming here, there's just something fun and magnetic. And, you know, one of the partners I met with, Vince Levy, at the time, and he said, Look, this is just it's got a startup feel to it. That's And what we're I loved that too, because I want to be all in on everything I do.
Priyanka Timblo:And I got the sense that all these really smart people who could go out and do anything else were all in. And I was like, I love that. I wanna do it here.
Khurram Naik:So with that startup construct, I mean, so with the startup, there's potentially a lot of upside and then some significant downside in that there's riskiness in a startup, Paul Weiss, very established franchise, this new firm, people are very pedigreed and to your point that people can go anywhere that also cuts in the direction of, well, they could just go anywhere. If this isn't a success, they can just go anywhere. And I ran into a very similar situation to that in law school, there was a small firm that I joined that was one of the few that was hiring. Entered law school in 2010. So it a really rough economy.
Khurram Naik:So that was one of the things I assessed was, yeah, these lawyers are all very tough. They came from very big firms. They could go anywhere they want. And that's part of the risk of coming here is that that wouldn't really hold them down here. So for you, how did you in titrating that the risks and benefits, how did that seem like a fit for you?
Priyanka Timblo:I love a risk. That's just my personality. I mean it Like, it's more fun if it's a bit risky, and it's more in line with who I am. And so, yeah, that was hugely attractive, the potential for failure.
Khurram Naik:I love that.
Priyanka Timblo:So and and and but to be clear, you know, what I saw was these incredibly smart, strong, confident people that are badasses. And I was like, I'm I'm I'm very comfortable betting on this.
Khurram Naik:Look, I mean, I've seen in the people I've interviewed on this podcast, this is a very common pattern where lawyers have joined a growing franchise and said, okay, there's a lot of upside here. And so I'm gonna get on the ground floor here. So, you know, say like Neil Chatterjee, he was at Auric, and then he helped build out the Silicon Valley office and brand new tiny office. And there's these like internet weirdos in the 90s doing interesting things. And it's like, okay, that was an opportunity that he saw a lot of upside in Culpanishad Nevesen at Sussman, she joined the growing small LA office for that largely Houston presence, you know, wasn't a big firm.
Khurram Naik:And so, yeah, you see again and again, that people who take established but small and growing firms, you know, with the right DNA, that there's a lot of upside potential to that. So this is something I'm seeing is a really common pattern. And so I think we want to come to explore some more about how it patterns played out otherwise, but so very early in, you got an opportunity to to handle an arbitration that seems to me to be a major inflection point in your career. So can talk about that?
Priyanka Timblo:Absolutely. So this was about a year into my tenure as an associate at Hallwell Schuster and Goldberg, HSG as we call it internally. And it was a call from a friend, you know, one of the people you've interviewed on your show, and I won't say more than that. He, you know, gave me a call and said, we have this arbitration. And it was calling from in house saying, we want someone to handle this for us.
Priyanka Timblo:Right? And obviously, it's not like I had some great reputation as a lawyer, right? That they were, you know, calling Priyanka for Priyanka's skill sets. It was the firm, right? And I was the contact at the firm and known to that- known to him.
Priyanka Timblo:And so it not a massive arbitration. And it went from filing a complaint to the hearing in like seven months. So good speed. And I basically got to first chair it as mid to senior level associate. And I got support.
Priyanka Timblo:I absolutely got support. Judge Hallwell himself helped me with many aspects of it. And it was also where I got to start started working with Brendan DeMay, who was one of my partners here. And he and I would later go on to do another very large breach of contact case together, the Walmart case, which came later. But that was my first experience working with him.
Priyanka Timblo:And it was really awesome because it was also, you know, the nice thing about an arbitration sometimes is you are handling it from complaint to hearing, right? So every single part of the litigation process, which in the large complex cases that you typically see in big law or even high stakes litigation boutiques, they span years. But here you have a seven month timeframe and I got to handle every single part of it. And that again, that process makes you a better litigator too, right? How does your complaint play out when you have discovery?
Priyanka Timblo:How do your discovery requests play out? What kind of motions are you making, if any, right? What are the right things in your deposition? What are the admissions you're getting in your deposition that actually become effective control on a cross? And so I got to do my first direct, my first cross, actually leading the show, my first sort of full argument on it, you know, for there was sort of post hearing argument on the issue.
Priyanka Timblo:And it was a tough case. I don't think there was a lot of confidence just given given the posture, given, you know, the legal issues that nobody thought it was an obvious win. And I think there was a sense that it was, you know, very unlikely that we were going to win. And so I learned this other really critical skill was you need to do your best and leave it all on the table and just put it out there even even when everyone around you is sometimes telling you you're going to lose. How do you do that?
Priyanka Timblo:And that has been probably one of the most critical skills I've learned how to do in my life and has been responsible for my success thus far. And I learned it then. And we won. So, you know, and we won and it was a close call, but we won. We got over the edge because we made the better legal arguments and put on the better evidence.
Priyanka Timblo:And we were up against very accomplished, very fine lawyers.
Khurram Naik:If someone didn't believe in themselves in that moment, a skilled lawyer who didn't believe they could win and was listening to other people who said, this will not win. What would that lawyer have done differently? Did you do differently than that lawyer?
Priyanka Timblo:I kept working as hard as I could, and I kept thinking about creative ways to win. I kept the winning mentality in my head. I kept asking myself, how do we win? What do I do next? And I think if you're defeated, if you have a defeatist mentality or I've already lost mentality, you're like, well, how do I just like get through this?
Priyanka Timblo:Not let me think of the next creative idea. Let me let me figure out what's the next punch I throw. You're not thinking that. You're like, me cover my head and go and cower and wait for this to be over. Right.
Priyanka Timblo:But if you stop punching, then you're not going to win. And so it's that attitude that, you know, even if they land a few blows or even if people are telling you you're not going to win because your opponent's way bigger or whatever the other thing is, right? As long as you never give up the actual like tasks of figuring out what's the next, you know, strategy I have to do every single day and every moment of the trial to win. That's, know, that's the, to me, the mentality that will help you get there no matter what is being said. And even if there's a part of you that accepts that this is gonna be hard.
Priyanka Timblo:Right?
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I think that is profound because I think I read there's a book I read recently and by this guy, Edward Thorpe, who's he he was a legend in in in breaking down how to build systems around poker and how to beat casinos once you understand the odds better. Then he wrote a book about how to do that and the constant investing. And he said to paraphrase, he said, once you know there's a way to solve a problem, that does the heavy lifting of solving the problem. Like once you've decided that a problem is solvable or understand to be solvable, then that does the heavy lifting.
Khurram Naik:That sounds like you're saying here. It's just that attitude, that mental shift that spurs all this creativity and drive that just the same equally talented person would not implement. So I think that's it sounds like that's the differentiator.
Priyanka Timblo:I think that's exactly right. Once you figure out there's a way to solve the problem. I really like that. The other part of this is that I think I'm used to being underestimated, and that's really served me very well.
Khurram Naik:What are some examples of that? So you've been underestimated. What are some specific examples of being underestimated that paid off for you?
Priyanka Timblo:Well, I wouldn't say that they paid off, but I'm used to operating in a circumstance where I'm being underestimated. Underestimated. I'm I'm used used to to operating operating as as the underdog and not having that get to me, not having that take over my mentality or take over my focus on winning or my belief that I can win. And so look, it's all of it. You enter into a big law class at a place like in any big law firm and there's like 100 summers in the class.
Priyanka Timblo:I went And to the Canadian law school and a lot of people had fancy clerkships and much more fancy law school and fancy connections and fancy parents who are prominent lawyers and all of that, right? And it's easy to feel underestimated a lot of the time. And as soon as someone new works with you, what do they do? They look up your bio and they go to your law school and they may think, Oh, I haven't heard of that one. Or this person, I don't know if they're gonna do my best work for me, right?
Priyanka Timblo:And so I am used to having to prove myself with every single person again and again and again. I come into it. I know I'm coming into it from people having low expectations. That may not be very true anymore, actually, at this point in my career, but that is how it started, right? Where it was like, okay, they're not thinking they're gonna get the best for me.
Priyanka Timblo:And what I do get is I get the element of surprise. I get the, you know, I get to ambush someone and prove that. And that's fun and it works. And but I think more to go back to what you were saying earlier, I am used to operating under those conditions. I am used to being underestimated and I am being used I'm used to being told that I'm, you know, not that that I'm not the winner.
Priyanka Timblo:I'm not I'm not, you know, I'm not the lucky one who's gonna make it.
Khurram Naik:I think I'm noticing a pattern of two aspects. One is selecting opportunities. So, like, how you selected Holwell, how you sign up for this arbitration and select and identify the upside there. So there's upside to Holwell, there's upside to arbitration you could lose, but there's some upside if you want. And so that seems to be a big part of it.
Khurram Naik:Your attitude seems to be a part of it of just like having that resourcefulness of let me figure out how to make this a win. And so a question I have for you is you've identified this, so there was this arbitration, you saw an opportunity there, like you're saying an arbitration is this small defined universe where you can really own it in attractable amount of time, every aspect of it and see how every single piece of discovery you get evidences all comes together for strength. And so when there's a lot of lawyers who are early in their careers who are thinking about when they think about the opportunities they want, I see patterns of two ways of thinking one is, and frankly, this is absolutely true for me when I was a middle level associate. So I was at a middle market firm, and we were doing good work. But then I saw an opportunity to do we weren't the we were often in joint defense groups, and we weren't taking the lead.
Khurram Naik:And so there's certain firms that were taking the lead in these kinds of cases. So my former firm was one of them. And so I said, Okay, that's a firm I want to go to. And so there was a size of case that I want a type of case, and there's definitely a lot of merits to take on those big cases. But something I didn't appreciate going from middle market firm to name a 20 firm is that what often goes along with that is with these big cases that are high stakes, there's also a lot more top down direction, including from the client often.
Khurram Naik:And so I think what can often happen at big firms is that clients are sending work that's of two natures. One is one, they have pretty definite ideas about how to be litigated and other ones which are more matters first impression, we're leaning on you for this. But so I think that's something I didn't appreciate about it. By contrast with middle market clients, they are growing and they're sophisticated enough, but they don't have the expertise in house to make directions. So they're really leaning on you as a counselor.
Khurram Naik:But so I see a lot of people making selections or interest in identifying new opportunities of firms or within their firms based on the stake of the work. Often people are thinking about I want a higher stake kind of dispute. Or in this also shows up with by analogy and corporate transactions. And so you're making the case for, you know, there's a lot of value in these smaller transactions. Is that, do you observe this via pattern?
Khurram Naik:Do you think that these are relatively overlooked opportunities, underrated opportunities? How do you think about at this stage now, or like how you advise somebody who is a middle, like a mid level associate? How do you advise to think about the size of an opportunity? Because I think so many people are focusing on bigger, but it sounds like there's potential benefit in smaller. So I wonder if you can talk about that.
Priyanka Timblo:I think that this is a really excellent question because I think there's a lot of associates, and I was one of them, and I know other associates do, are always weighing that, right? There's the amazing Marquet high stakes case, right, That you can be a part of, but it's very tough. As you said, the direction is coming very heavy from the top, right? And those are larger teams or there's like a small case, right? Where there's more room for you to control things, right?
Priyanka Timblo:And direct the action. And what I would say is you need You need to have the smaller cases to show what you got and to take control and to do to learn all the little parts of litigation that need to come together seamlessly to become a really to become a smart litigator and especially to become a trial lawyer, you need to know how all the parts of litigation work, the stages of it. And small cases can teach you that really well because they move faster. Right? And because the teams are smaller.
Priyanka Timblo:And so you will be more involved in each one of those stages. And so you will get a critical learning experience. And the other part of that is you will get more you may you may get more time to shine, right? If it's a smaller team, you may get to do a witness or you may get to lead or do you know what I mean? Those kinds of things.
Priyanka Timblo:And so that is super valuable. And I would actually encourage, you know, mid level associates to seek that out. But and this is a really important but because I truly believe this The big high stakes matters are also really important because you learn how you litigate those differently. You learn how to work as part of a very large team, potentially not only as part of a large team, but as part
Khurram Naik:of
Priyanka Timblo:like one law firm working with many other law firms jointly toward a goal and how to negotiate those relationships and how to manage these enormous cases, right? And it is a different skill set, right? And if you want to do complex commercial litigation at the highest level, you do need to learn how to manage those really, how to be a part of those big cases and you need to learn how they work and their nuts and bolts and how to succeed and how to shine and become a star even on a team like that, right? A large case and a team like that, but also how to sort of respect the structure and the framework and certainly the various business interests that are at play. So it's almost like the smaller cases are a crucible of learning.
Priyanka Timblo:Right. But if you only do that and you don't have the experience on the big ones, then at some point it's going to be harder to shift over. And so this is where the diversity of cases is critical. And if you've had just the small cases with one or two partners and you're arguing stuff and taking witnesses and writing all your own briefs, that's awesome. Right?
Priyanka Timblo:You've got an incredible experience. But working on the big cases, the huge high stakes ones, the ones that make the news, right? That's a different skill set. And, you know, depending on what your career goals are, it might be really important to be a part of that too and have that experience.
Khurram Naik:And so what, why, I guess, why couldn't, what's wrong with just pursuing, like, let's say you just have total ownership of arbitrations, that, you know, let's paint a story where that's paint a picture where that's a skill set you start acquiring as an associate, you get master of these arbitrations, and then that's a pathway to partnership to say, hey, like, I am a go to person for say, arbitrations, and then that's my thesis. And then I also develop systems and patterns around this, it's very operationalized. That seems to be one vision of success and you're charting a different success, which is based on much more diversity of skill set and versatility. Paint the different paths for someone who pursued maybe, I guess you could say there's three paths, only the biggest cases and trying to figure out how to do those well, doing a mixture, doing just smaller cases where you have mastery, what are the different paths as associates partnership and then as a partner for growing from there? Like, tell me about those different visions and how someone would know which vision is best for them.
Priyanka Timblo:So I'll address the first question because the second one is much harder. Which one is right for you? But I think one perspective that it's just critical to have is that life is long and careers are long. And, you know, it's easy as an associate to think of like partnership as the end, but it is it is not the end. Partnership is what I call table stakes.
Priyanka Timblo:You got to get there to start playing in the big leagues. So but it's starting. You're not you're not ending there. And it then you have to once you're there, now you have table stakes, you know, you then you build your career.
Khurram Naik:And
Priyanka Timblo:so but I also think it depend look, it depends on the area of law. It depends on the firm that you have, and it depends on what you want out of your practice. It really is personal and specific, right? And I think that one thing about litigation, at least litigation in New York though, is that a top litigator is expected to be able to do both. Like you are expected to be able to help manage and run very large cases where there's lots of different law firms involved and joint defense groups and all of that.
Priyanka Timblo:You have to know how to do that. And that's a skill set. And if the client's like, I just have this really important matter and it's small and it's going to trial in six months. And it's like one partner and two associates, you got to need to have the skill set to do that. And so you need to understand who your clients are and what your practice what's the practice you want, right?
Priyanka Timblo:And that should inform the mix. I think there's some firms, you know, and some practices where you can say like, this is all I do and I am really good at it, right? I do like arbitrations and I can do arbitrations of this forum that exactly like this type, right? And I know everything there's know about it. And I think I love what you said before about process, right?
Priyanka Timblo:You've perfected the process and you're super efficient and like you are the go to person if they have that kind of dispute about around this size. And that's phenomenal. That is a ticket to amazing success. But that's your practice then, right? That's who you are.
Priyanka Timblo:And like I said, once you're like firmly embedded in that, can you branch out ten years into being a partner? Probably, but it's going to be harder, you know, once you get pigeonholed. And so I, from my vantage point, which is the one that I can speak to, which is, you know, a commercial litigation boutique in New York that often works opposite and alongside big law. We do a lot of the same kinds of cases, right? To me, it is essential to have the ability to do both.
Priyanka Timblo:The big marquee, huge high stakes headline cases, right? And the small arbitrations where it's a really tiny team and you've got to perfect your process and be able to do it. And so it would be very difficult for me to counsel an associate not to seek out both kinds of opportunities unless they were sure that they wanted to be like exactly this type of lawyer forever, right? If they told me that, I'd be like, go for it. You figured it out.
Priyanka Timblo:I've heard the term optionality a lot in your podcasts. And that's not the way that I necessarily think of it, but I think of it as like, I want to just do different stuff because I don't want to just do the same thing for a long time. I want to keep my options open for a new adventure, right, and a new type of case. And the way I keep my options open for a new adventure and a new type of case is to make sure that I'm always that I have versatility in my skill set and that I'm doing different types of cases of different sizes. And one really critical part of that that I'm super proud of in my practice is the plaintiff and defense side work, being on both sides of the V.
Priyanka Timblo:That has made me the lawyer I am, and it is super fun. So, and it's rare from what I've heard.
Khurram Naik:Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the optionality because that was something I was going to pick up both of you on because I did sense that your thesis is very different in that way in that. So it sounds like you believe in optionality in that you want to be well rounded as a litigator, sides of small cases, big cases. But it seems like you've made like, you've made a very specific bet on the kind of professional you want to be that you feel, you know, your comment earlier about we may not have been recording this maybe in some way we're talking about it, it's all kind of blurring together. But when you're talking about law students and have the understanding of what they're heading into, know, want it like, you know, your counsel for them is like, hey, you know, do you want to be a lawyer? Like, you have to understand you're making a very specific bet here.
Khurram Naik:And so that to me said that, okay, I'll be interested in talking to Priyanka about optionality, because it sounds like she's more a believer in making a call and a concentrated bet. I mean, arguably did that with HSD, arguably did that with saying, hey, like, say that first arbitration. So I think I'm very interested in hearing your anti optionality thesis, which is interesting because of course, you could also make an assertion that that does include some optionality in that, like, we're just talking about diversification of skill set, but it sounds like you're more a believer of calling your shots.
Priyanka Timblo:I think that is really insightful. And I almost didn't realize that about myself until you said it. So thank you. Because I think it's true. I think that's exactly who I am.
Priyanka Timblo:I, and part of it is because I want to be all in. Right? And when I'm all in, it is all in. I am devoted. I am a 100% there.
Priyanka Timblo:When I am on a case serving a client, and I've said this to my clients, and it is 100% true. I'm like, I want to win just as bad as you do. And sometimes they're like, Really? As bad as I do? I'm like, Yes, as bad as you do.
Priyanka Timblo:I want to be all in and I don't want to have one foot out the door and one foot, you know, that doesn't work. It doesn't work for me, you know, because I like I need that framework of being all in to channel my best work. And because my best work is not just the sort of legal ideas and the hours and the strategy, it is my emotional energy and my heart and that I'm thinking about those things all the time. I'm thinking about them when I am going for a run or making breakfast or something like that. Like, and I want that.
Priyanka Timblo:I want it to all be, you know, my life's work. So you gotta be all in for that kind of stuff, right? I think the way I would put it is like, that's how I know I work best. That's how I know that's what makes my work fun, right? When I am all in and I get to be all in.
Priyanka Timblo:And I don't want to work these hours and do this if it's not fun and I'm not putting my best in. So I just I need to, you know, place my bet, you know, commit to something and then and then that's it. Like, I'm in it for the long haul. And by the way, it's not that I'm like, I'm not the kind of person who deludes myself into thinking, oh, well, inevitable path is success on any given thing. I don't.
Priyanka Timblo:I don't think that at all, actually. Know, defeat has been a friend and a teacher So, in my you know, I But you're all in, and you're all in for the losses too, you know? But yeah, I think it is, it's just, it's part of who my personality and what makes this fun for me, I would say.
Khurram Naik:I think you're hitting something really perceptive, really insightful, which is that all in aspect is, I think you could reconcile. So I myself happen to be a believer in optionality. I find to be useful perspective. And I think there, and I really value your perspective. And I think there's a resolution of the two, which is when you are in something, you could be doing something for the optionality of it in your career.
Khurram Naik:Maybe your thesis is, hey, being partner at a firm is a tool that I'll use to get to other things, fine. But when you are doing it, you need to be all in. And I think that any number of lawyers view some step in their career as some role typically at a firm as a stepping stone next thing, which is fine. But I think then they don't have, they're not invested in that step. And so they're just not going to get what they need to get out of that to get to the next thing, unless you're totally invested in it.
Khurram Naik:It was so interesting how you said hearts, because I learned this concept from there's an entrepreneur named Dan Martell. And he said this concept of hearts and hands, which I find really helpful. And so there's times in a business when you need hands. So there's just like tasks to perform. And you want tasks performed well, but maybe you need a specialist, let's say with my business, my podcast is not central to my business is something that I do that because I like to do it.
Khurram Naik:It definitely has a relationship to my business, but that's not the thing. So I'm not going to have somebody who's like, this podcast is not nearly big enough to have a full time dedicated person who is thinking about the podcast twenty four hours a day. But for that, I need hands. Then for other things, need hearts, You need somebody who's invested. So it's so interesting to use the word heart because that's exactly this new idea that I've been exploring about being all in.
Khurram Naik:And, yeah, I think that's a really powerful idea for making the most of stage you're in. And then if you want more clinical concept for it, just there's Andrew Huberman, who is a very popular writer about performance and well-being. And so he just had a tweet, I think it was yesterday, about compartmentalizing. He said, this gets a bad rap. But in order to have success, at some moment of the day when you're doing something, you need to be able to compartmentalize that.
Khurram Naik:And so I think that's, if you have a take, want to take a more analytical approach at the heart doesn't resonate, that's another way getting at the same concept.
Priyanka Timblo:Yeah, firstly, I love Andrew Huberman too. I listen to him a lot. So I'm really happy to hear about that. And I think compartmentalizing is right. I also don't think, I love the way you put it, which is that there is resolution between the two perspectives of optionality versus anti optionality because it and compartmentalization is that resolution.
Priyanka Timblo:Because when you're in it, be in it, right? And maybe there's a point where that is done and then there is another step for you to take, another path for you to take that opens up. But you can't always be looking at all the options and surveying them and have your fingers in so many pies to the extent that that sacrifices your focus and commitment to the thing in front of you.
Khurram Naik:On the topic of hearts, so we talked about how any number of lawyers at different stages of career, let's say particularly, you know, mid level litigators who have some sense of or lawyers who have some sense of, of what their interests are at that stage. Something I've observed lies a lot of lawyers at that stage are thinking about the kinds of work they're most interested in. And I think there's definitely a lot of truth to on the topic of hearts that, you have to have an interest in something, you need to be thinking about it. So for me, know, I guess my measure was like, you know, what I think about in the shower, right? And so I noticed that myself when I practice law that no, I'm not thinking about my cases in the shower or on the weekends.
Khurram Naik:And so I know it's like, okay, that's not a great sign. Like, know, that's a measure of, of when you've really hit your stride, you're really honing in on the thing you should be working on. And so I think one dimension we talked about these big cases, smaller cases, that's one dimension. I think another dimension that a lot of lawyers focus on is practice area. And so again, understandably, you know, there's some practice areas are just inherently more interested than others.
Khurram Naik:But I've noticed that I think an underrated lens on choosing work is the control or what you learn from it. Think in relative terms, what's overrated is focusing on practice area and saying, oh, this is what I'm most interested in, because I think that overlooks how you litigate those cases or do that work or, you know, whatever kind of learning you're doing. But I wonder what your take on that is, is what's the role of substantive experience, substantive interest in a practice area for choosing, and then what role specialization plays in your career, either as a litigator who's coming out to become partner or as a partner, because I think that's something that can be very confusing for people to wrap their heads around.
Priyanka Timblo:You know, I totally agree. And I think that was very confusing for me as an associate. And, you know, one great thing about the firm that I am at is that we are generalists and we are sort of very firm about being generalists, you know, and within commercial litigation. So only commercial litigation all day, but within that we do a lot. But you cannot lose the need to go deep, right?
Priyanka Timblo:So I do a lot of antitrust work and I love antitrust work. And I've been doing that my entire career starting at Paul Weiss. And antitrust is one area of the law. Like, you can't be a dabbler and you can't wake up tomorrow and decide to be an antitrust lawyer. You have to have spent quite a while reading all of those cases from last century and, you know, the tweaks on it and understand the nuances of the doctrine and understand the philosophy and also exactly how it's changed over time.
Priyanka Timblo:Like this case changed the boat for this and this case the landscape for this kind of claim or these kinds of claims are going to become easier or this state's going to pass a statute and now all of a sudden it's going to completely change the ballgame for plaintiffs with a certain other type of claim. Right. And you need to have the facility having read those cases, having read the doctrine and worked with economists also, by the way, because antitrust law is a dialogue between law and economics and just like the pure economics of it, right? And you need to understand how they speak to each other to really, to be able to practice it at a high level. And so that's an area where, you know, like you got you've got a you can call yourself a generalist all day, but you want to do antitrust law.
Priyanka Timblo:You got to read the cases and you got to spend a long time kind of becoming to that point. But I read some, I read a book last month that was really interesting. And it's called The Art of Learning by Josh Weitzman, who was a prodigy chess player. I don't know if you've heard of him.
Khurram Naik:Yeah, read this book. I think about it. I'm interested in what you have to say about it.
Priyanka Timblo:Well, I'm so glad you've read it. Anyway, it's one of those books where I was like, Wow, I have so much to think about. And the thesis of that book was that the people who perform at the very highest level of their fields versus, you know, they're not just great, they have achieved mastery. Those people have more in common with each other across radically different fields than they do with people in their same fields one layer below. So, you know, the masters have more in common with the masters in a completely different field than they do with the greats in their own field.
Priyanka Timblo:And a lot of that has to do I mean, when you talk about specialization, right? I think about that a lot because it's taking your craft and what you're learning to the very next level, you know? And this goes beyond one of the things that is talked about in that book, as you know, he talks a lot about chess in the book, right? Because he's a chess player. And when you get to that level of greatness, I'm not even talking about the mastery level, the greatness is you know how to play chess really well.
Priyanka Timblo:You know all the rules, you know how it works. It's like, you've got the nuts and bolts down. Amazing. But how do you rise above? Right?
Priyanka Timblo:And to me, this is a bit of a nuance on specialisation because it's like, you have to internalise your craft. You have to take your craft and then make it one with yourself, basically. And he calls it the way that I interpret or what I learned or took away from the book was it's like you have to learn the fundamentals and master the fundamentals so that you can leave them and rise above them and make it your own and have your own distinct style that is so authentic. Right? And that is like a level of new mastery within the same craft.
Priyanka Timblo:And so in law, right, it's not just about this area of the law. Like I was talking about antitrust law, right? You got to read all the cases. You've got to know the economics. You've to do all that.
Priyanka Timblo:Yes, totally. And you've got to respect that this is its own doctrine and you have to do the learning and do the homework. You don't wake up tomorrow being an antitrust lawyer. But then there's the craft of being a lawyer, right? Which is really why I love trial law.
Priyanka Timblo:Because, you know, you even after you know how to write a really good cross examination and do a really good cross examination, each one comes out a little different. And you must have like a learner's mentality. Like the way that you get better is often at that point when you know the material inside out, when you know how to write and deliver a good cross, how do you get better at that? And the way you get better at that, I think, is almost to go inside yourself and say, what are the personal things in my emotions, in my subconscious that are not obstacles, but that are influencing my style and creating obstacles. And so you actually have to fix those to become better.
Priyanka Timblo:And I think you and I talked about this in one of our prep calls. I think about that very specifically because right now I'm in a really cool spot where I do a lot of different arbitrations month after month. And so I'm doing a lot of opening and closing statements and directs and crosses. What's great is I get to do them and then I get to do them again in a month. And so there is this unique opportunity to say, how do I get better?
Priyanka Timblo:And how do I hone the craft and rise above to that level from greatness to mastery? And a lot of that work that I've had to do to move forward has been understanding for myself, you know, how do I control the emotional tone of the room more? Which involves me being far more in control of my own emotions, right? And now that's big work. That's like the deep work I have to go do.
Priyanka Timblo:But that is the next level. That's the next level in a cross. And so when you say specialization, my mind is going there in a way too. It's going there as much as it's going to antitrust law and reading the doctrine. It's like honing your craft and having a learning mindset always.
Priyanka Timblo:And that learning mindset is you get higher and higher up that ladder, right? When you've mastered those fundamentals, the way you ascend beyond that is to know yourself more and to control the things that are invisible.
Khurram Naik:You know, it's really interesting because I, it was my birthday yesterday and so for my birthday I mostly took the day off and I sat down to read a book on Shakespeare that I've been meaning to read for a while and something, so I've liked Shakespeare, I've read his works, but I haven't really understood the historical significance fully. And so in doing a little more research on it, it seems like one of the big innovations Shakespeare had, know, took existing works and then modified them. And one of the patterns is my understanding that he modified say over say Greek plays, these Greek plays did such an interesting job of wrestling with characters wrestling with conflicts with the world. And but so one of the innovations he had was he took things that were the Greek conception for that conflict was it was much more about society, much more about, hey, like, how do my values in line with societies? Or then like how that's like, you know, tactically implemented a play as you have like a Greek chorus, who are communicating the expectations of the society and contextualize this individual's decisions in context of society or religious concepts like fate.
Khurram Naik:And what Shakespeare innovation was to internalize us. So something like that something in a play that otherwise would be given to a Greek chorus is now comes through a monologue, like Yama gives a monologue and that's communicating the stakes and so much it was more about the internal struggles and internal conflicts between conflicts of values that people have. So it just seems to me like, that is like the big bang of the modern era is realizing that the real game is internal and maybe make an economic explanation of is, is Shakespeare was in a time of kind of the inflection point of economic growth in our society. And so like, once we have certain material needs met in a mass local hierarchy kind of way, then the game becomes inner, right? So then that's where the craft comes in.
Khurram Naik:Craft is no longer, how well do you build a chair, but now the craft is like, how well do you relate to others and your own strengths? That's like in a service economy, like that's what craft is. And I'm finding that for myself, as I'm referencing, as litigator, I enjoyed so much about litigation, patent litigation, antitrust too. I only took a course in it in law school and I loved it so much that as a professor introduced me to antitrust professors and this is in 2012. And she was like, unfortunately, interest law is kind of dead right now.
Khurram Naik:So it's kind of all been settled. It's like, oh, there goes that. If I just hung in there, there have been a lot for me. But so, but you know, so like, I definitely enjoyed it analytically, for sure. But I didn't, I hadn't identified a craft in it.
Khurram Naik:And I think a big part of craft is not just what exists in the world. They say, Oh, there's a craft, I go do that. You create craft, you pull it out of the world and say, Ah, here, I'm going to create my own path here. I'm going to create the craft I'm honing in on. And I think that's when you say like, you're identifying, like for myself, you know, in recruiting, and what I'm really enjoying is the structure that we create, that's what I'm really fascinated by is, you know, when you're when you're a in this market making function, you create structure for firms, for lawyers.
Khurram Naik:And so I'm really fascinated with that and the implications of that. But no one's going to tell you that. That's not like something that someone's going to tell you. And just like when you're saying, Hey, like I have to master this emotional dimension. You're not going to learn that in law school.
Khurram Naik:You're not going to get that. There's not going to be a speaker that's going to come in at your law firm and say, Hey, let's talk about the emotional inner game here. Like, these are things that you have to identify that of all the different pieces there are in life, like, here's the thing that I'm honing in on that I'm identifying. So do feel like there was a moment where you discovered like, that's what you have to do? Like, how did you come to realize, hey, the game isn't just about the skills of cross examination and okay, well, here's how to craft effective written discovery and here's how to frame this.
Khurram Naik:How did you translate? How did you realize that you're at that threat that that point where, hey, it's a different game now. It's a game of interiority. It's a game of of of emotional energy management. Like, how did you how did you identify that point, which you're you needed to to elevate in that way?
Priyanka Timblo:I think it's a great question, but I cannot let what you just said pass without saying how impressed I am that you read Shakespeare yesterday on your birthday. I that's awesome. I haven't read Shakespeare in years, but I loved it, and it shaped me to what I am today. So just wanted to throw that out.
Khurram Naik:Anybody can do it. It's free.
Priyanka Timblo:It is. It is. In any event, so your question about how did I discover that, Firstly, your the premise of your question is the critical one, which is that it is on you to discover the craft and to discover like, the guidebook isn't showing you what the next steps are. Right? There is no book that says, first you do this and then you do this and then you do this.
Priyanka Timblo:And then to get to this level, that's your next step. Right? And even if you read, as you and I've read The Art of Learning by Josh Weitzman, woah, that book is heavy and deep and complex. And like, at some points, have to read the sentence five times because it's the concept is so ephemeral and hard to pin down, right? And so what I'll say is this, there's as a younger lawyer, one of the things that I was always attuned to was when I saw something that some other lawyer did that was awesome, right?
Priyanka Timblo:That killed it. Like a freaking awesome brief, right? Like, there's there's lots of firstly, there's a ton of guidance out there on how to write a very competent and very good brief. And everybody should read that guidance and learn it, and we can all get there. But, like, then there's some people who just have the talent, like one of my partners, Brenton DeMae, it's like his brief's just like they're otherworldly, you know?
Priyanka Timblo:And he just does it so well, and it's just, you know, mellifluous when you read it. And so when I look at that, I soak it in because I'm like, that's some genius at work. And you got to take a moment to honor the craft when you see it at that highest level, because it creates an imprint in your mind of what excellence like that mastery is supposed to look like. And it's important because you have to have that ideal floating around. You have to start, you know, building the ideal starts early.
Priyanka Timblo:And so what I would say is when you should always, you know, be on the lookout for those moments of magic when you see them in other people. And then with your own, when I was, you know, especially as an associate, right? You just spend a lot, you have to master the fundamentals. It's almost like to respect, you know, work that is magic and hits that point, you have to respect the fundamentals and respect the discipline of mastering first, just like get a handle, clean up your house, you know, figure out exactly how to do this stuff from the ground up really well. Learn the building blocks, learn the skills because you can't get to those top levels unless your mastery of the fundamental principles is not only complete, but it is profound and it is so within you and a part of you and natural that that's when you can leave it and go to the next level.
Priyanka Timblo:And what I would say is like, like with cross examination, right? I remember before I had to do my first cross, I like bought the books and I watched videos and I read everything that I could possibly read about how to do a good cross. And I practiced that and I learned rules and I could teach someone some really good rules and how to do a competent cross. Anyone can do it, I promise. If you follow the rules, okay?
Priyanka Timblo:And you got to learn how to first write a competent cross and what the rules are. And then you have to learn how to control a witness and what works and what doesn't. And you got a few missteps and you figure that out. And then the next level of that, once you know how to do all that is controlling the emotional tone of the room. Right?
Priyanka Timblo:And again, I've actually seen that done really successfully. One of my other partners, Scott Banner, just has an innate talent. It's just his personality. It's who he is. Right?
Priyanka Timblo:He's able to control the emotional tone of the room, of the judge and the witness and opposing counsel and everybody else. And he's the one in charge, but it's done with compassion. And so there's just massive control in that and massive mastery. Here's the thing. I'll never be able to do it the way he does it, and I'll never be able to write a brief the way Brendan does it.
Priyanka Timblo:And so this part, right, where you get from, I know the fundamentals to how do I figure out what my next steps are for mastery? Again, it's that going interior. It's who am I? How do I because you can't copy someone else. It's just impossible.
Priyanka Timblo:It has to be authentic or you're not getting there. And so you've got to flip it back around and go internally once you've mastered the fundamentals, right? And say, having mastered this, how do I take a risk? And how do get myself into like a mindset of flow where I can take a risk and that risk is awesome? And again, this goes back to the book I keep mentioning, The Art of Learning, where it's coming from your subconscious.
Priyanka Timblo:You're channeling the power of your subconscious, which has the body of everything you've learned. Right. And that's like risks that come from there are coming from your mastery of the subject matter and the craft over a long period of time. And once you take a few of those, you're like, this is fun and I can do this. And that gives you the confidence to take other ones.
Priyanka Timblo:And you know which ones make sense and which ones don't, right? And you know when you're ready to take that particular risk in a given moment because you're not always ready, right? And by ready, I mean like you have better days and worse days, we all do. So to me, it starts with the fundamentals and it starts with the respect for the people who do it really well. And then when you have mastered the fundamentals, you got to go inside and figure out how to bring that subconscious, how to bring that part of you that is uniquely you into the next stage.
Khurram Naik:You know, I think this ties into that question of specialization too, like, should I work on big cases, small cases? Should I work on, you know, this antitrust or some other practice area? I think the answer is there's a dynamic relationship or reciprocal relationship between the type of work and the craft. And you have to be constantly identifying what is my craft? And then what's the best substrate for exercising that craft?
Khurram Naik:You know, if my craft is, you know, how I, you know, control the emotions that I have and therefore influence people in the room. You can't be doing that if your work is like literally by yourself by a computer, right? Like that's when you're briefing or whatever, like you can't exercise that skill set, right? So like, you're choosing the wrong work if you're trying to make that your craft. And so, and then if there's cases that don't go to trial, like you won't be able to use that skill set, right?
Khurram Naik:Like, so there are constraints from the work that guide the craft and vice versa, but you like, you have to be looking for like, what is that kind the use word flow? Like, how do I get in flow with the work and my craft?
Priyanka Timblo:Absolutely. I mean, there's just like so much of, you know, I think we've talked a lot about what happens when you're in the right place at the right time, but how do you get to the right place at the right time, right? And that has been gaining people's trust, building true relationships, you know, and therefore getting to work on the right types of cases, being able to take on cases with a ton of risk, right, that give you opportunities early on. And that's how I've gotten trial experience, and that's how I've been able to build it. So it is directly related to my appetite for risk.
Khurram Naik:So you talked about, you developed a relationship with a medication funder and that was so influential in your trajectory. Like what was the nature of that relationship? Why, I mean, yes, there's, you know, your firm was selected, but you know, there's other outs, you're in New York City, right? So there's just like, outstanding firms there. So clearly, you were a key part of this, that, know, you had this relationship with this, with this person at this fund.
Khurram Naik:So how do people grow those kinds of relationships? Like, what is it that you did that was special? You know, getting this funder, he knows lots of lawyers, you know, what was it in you that he that that? What was the kernel that that grew? And what how can other people cultivate that sort of organic relationship with someone?
Priyanka Timblo:So the key word is organic. In what you said. Because I like this notion Firstly, I will speak to the fact that I'm a fairly junior partner. So when I talk about biz dev, it is talked about from my perspective and the things I know. There's a million ways to do this right, and I only know the ways I did it.
Priyanka Timblo:And in my experience, there is almost no difference between like what business development is, is building authentic long term relationships of trust with people where they have many opportunities to see your work, to see your work, to learn your work and to trust your work. And that's when they come to you. Like, it is, you know, there's there and, you know, of course, there are some amazing lawyers out there where their reputation precedes them and like someone they're going to get the cold call. Right? But me, how I got here, it's not, it was the true work of building and I have to use the word friendships, right?
Priyanka Timblo:I have like, that's the word because when someone comes to you where they're taking risk and they trust you, like that trust runs really deep, right? It's trust and competence. So they've seen your work, they've seen results and they've seen your character. And usually, though not always, but at least in my, again, speaking from me, my experience, there's a friendship that is with that, right? That is real.
Priyanka Timblo:It's not just like business colleagues. I don't know. Like things like networking and biz dev, there's a shallowness to that, right? There doesn't need to be. And I'm not implying that there always is, but that's sometimes why I shy away from those words and why I'm not afraid of the word friendship in those contexts, you know?
Priyanka Timblo:Because I do believe, to your point, okay, so, you know, we're talking concretely about, for example, the Walmart case, right, that my firm took on, that Brendan and I took on, and that we won a $101,000,000 jury verdict in Arkansas against Walmart in 2024. And it's this massive case, and it came to me with a phone call from a friend who knew my work and where we had a relationship of trust, you know, where- and part of that trust, right, is that I think that, I mean, you'll have to talk to him, part of it I know is that he knew that I go all in, right, in the sense of like, will do my best. I want to win as badly as anybody else does. There's no principal agent problem here, if you know what I mean. Know, there's no daylight between our intentions because I am not the kind of person who does that.
Priyanka Timblo:Because when I sign up, am all in and I will make it. I will do my very, very best, you know? And so what I would say, right, to your question of how does one come about to develop those relationships? It's the long way. It's the way you make lifelong friends, right?
Priyanka Timblo:It's by coming to someone authentically, being there, building authentic relationships incrementally over time. This was many years in the making. Finding opportunities to work together where they can see your work, trust your work, trust your competence and see your character as a lawyer and your character as a person. Right? Because that's that that doesn't get talked about enough, right?
Priyanka Timblo:Like values and character. But it's not just like brainpower that that that's the thing people want. They want someone who it's not just brainpower and like legal ethics. Those are important. But I'm talking about something else, which is character, right?
Priyanka Timblo:Which is the staying power, the commitment, the heart, right? The ability to get past tough situations, to work with people on something, right? And sometimes complex, difficult cases, that's what's needed as much as anything else. And so that relationship was in place at the time that, you know, I got that call and why we were the right people for that case.
Khurram Naik:So that that that outcome is remarkable because it's one of the largest jury verdicts in Arkansas and it's against Walmart, which is, you know, this, what I understand to be a beloved retailer and institution in Arkansas. So this seemed to be heroic, heroically against the odds, and then an extraordinary outcome from that. So there was Priyanka before, the litigator heading into that experience and there's Priyanka after, what was the change?
Priyanka Timblo:I mean, it definitely changed my profile. It changed, know, more people knew who I was, right? And a little bit of like, I wasn't totally underestimated every time I entered a room anymore. So that's been, it's been nice, but also maybe I'm losing my superpower on that one to harken back to our previous conversation. But actually, here's the thing is like, I look at that also as like, what can I learn from it?
Priyanka Timblo:Because we should be learned, like, it's one milestone on the journey of improving my craft, right? And so I look back and I can think of like, you know, when I wrote some of those crosses, I took risks and I did them really differently than like, I sort of like tried something totally new out, you know, with some of them. And I'm proud of how it worked out because it worked out really well. And then I'm like, okay, well, the answer is not to obviously do the same kind of strategy for the next cross. It's to trust myself to be creative and inventive with crosses.
Priyanka Timblo:Please. You know, because just to give you an example, one of our witnesses at that trial was a very, very high up, sophisticated, polished Walmart executive, you know? Just like total, you know, one of these people who, like, has control over every word. Like, and I had deposed her several months earlier, like about a half year earlier. And she was like a very difficult person to depose because she wasn't she wasn't giving anything up, but she was like not confrontational at all.
Priyanka Timblo:You know, just like ask her a simple question, you get a long speech that isn't responsive, but it's like all the right buzzwords. You know, it's like this, this is a very savvy and intelligent person. And I was like, she is not going to agree to a damn thing that I tried to do with her on Cross. I'm going to say something, I'm going to get a speech, you know, and that is ineffective on Cross. And then you try to argue with the witness, you have lost period, right?
Priyanka Timblo:The minute on Cross examined you were arguing with a witness, you have lost control and you have lost that game. And so I was like, how am I going to do this? And so I thought I'm going to get through her just the, you know, a critical issue in the case was like whether the folks, the higher up folks, including her at Walmart, were aware of what some of the lower level employees were doing on the deal. Right? And their claim was we weren't aware at all.
Priyanka Timblo:The employees went rogue. Okay? And so my entire cross was built around a series of like 30 emails that were all update emails. Okay. Where the lower level employee was updating her and a few other Walmart people.
Priyanka Timblo:And the questions were literally, you received this email, you and four other Walmart executives, including two Walmart lawyers on this date. You received this email That was one week after the last email. You and five other Walmart executives and four other lawyers. Now you receive this email. This is only two weeks later after that.
Priyanka Timblo:You and six other Walmart executives and five other lawyers. And you can see how the answer to each of those questions has to be yes. Right? And she didn't have the ability to give me a speech. And it built a momentum.
Priyanka Timblo:And I did this for, like, a lot of emails, and that number kept going up, by the way. Was all of a sudden, it was like you and 14 other Walmart executives and five lawyers, you know?
Khurram Naik:Love that.
Priyanka Timblo:And it was like weekly. And it's like the you're creating an impression. And I was you know? And so, like, nobody taught me how to do that strategy, but I came up with it. I was like, that was fun.
Priyanka Timblo:And that worked. And like, this was a very tricky witness who is one of the smartest people who was like, you know, I wasn't Believe me, any question that gave her wiggle room, she was going to wiggle. So I look at that and I say, What can I learn from that? And what I can learn is like, difficult witnesses call for very creative solutions, and I need to trust my gut and always be super creative and do something brand new and cool. And so I came Perhaps the greatest gift, right, of that victory and that experience was the affirmation that my crazy creative ideas work sometimes and having the confidence to do them again, Right.
Priyanka Timblo:And so that is what I take from it. And I get to do more of that. And sometimes I see myself like getting more risk averse. Oh, let me just write it this way. And then I'm like, no, that's not where my power lies.
Priyanka Timblo:That's not what difficult cases call for. And so the Priyanka after the Walmart verdict is more proven in concept, I would say.
Khurram Naik:I love that. And you have more confidence in your creativity. I'm thinking of like Star Wars and the original movie and, you know, he's got the ghost of Obi Wan in his ears, like, you know, just use the force, let go. And so I think that was your moment there. So let's talk about, you know, on the topic of trials, you did something that is extraordinary, where you had a trial where you're eight and a half, eight and a half months pregnant.
Khurram Naik:I've never been eight and a half months pregnant, but that sounds very difficult. So tell me about how you've managed to weave in parenting with the demands of your work. Tell me about how, at the level of performance you're operating at, how you manage.
Priyanka Timblo:So the first thing I will say is it looks nothing like the word balance. The word balance does not apply. I don't understand what like, you know, it just, that is alien to my life. It is sort of moving from one mode to another mode, right? When I am in trial for my clients, I am all in on that.
Priyanka Timblo:And I do try to call my kids every day, but I still have to be all in in the trial. And I just need to I make sure that they're, you know, they're being cared for, that they have their routine. There's a lot of setup I do before then to make sure that they have what they need. But I have to be able to pull away for trials. And so I make sure that I can because the last thing I want to do is feel pulled between two directions.
Priyanka Timblo:I will also say that, Some days I feel like I'm not managing I need to say that because I think there's a lot of working parents out there and especially working lawyers. Where it's just painfully hard and it just is It is painfully hard and I feel like I am drowning some days. The only is Those are the moments where you have to say, take a deep breath and why am I doing this to myself? You gotta ask yourself. And the answer is because I love my career and I love what I do.
Priyanka Timblo:And I am so lucky to get to live this life and do what I do for work. And I am so lucky to get to live this life and have two amazing kids that bring me joy every day. And it is really hard right now in this moment today, but I just sort of need to get past this really hard moment, right? Even when I feel like I'm drowning and even when I feel like I'm failing everybody, and get up tomorrow and try again. So, you know, there is there is sometimes when I just don't feel like I'm managing.
Priyanka Timblo:So to anyone else who feels that way, you're not alone. But I will say, in the long run, I've gotten comfortable with it. And the reason I've got I don't feel I think very early on when I was, you know, when my kids were much younger, I felt a lot of I felt a lot of conflict and resentment toward my career because I couldn't spend as much time with them. But I don't feel resentment anymore. That's not a feeling that I feel because I'm very clear about why I do what I do with my career.
Priyanka Timblo:And I'm also very clear that it's my choice, right? I chose this. This is for me and I love it. And I am grateful to be walking my path every day. And this is exactly where I'm supposed to be.
Priyanka Timblo:And I got to do it. And I'm also supposed to be Iris and Orion's mom. And that's my path too. I you know, however hard it looks and however unconventional it looks, I gotta work through this difficulty. And this is the hardest thing I do.
Priyanka Timblo:I will tell you that my doing my job is much easier than navigating or managing doing this job, you know, while making sure I'm being the parent that they deserve.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. How do you think about, you know, what what I think I've I've heard a couple of successful people talk about this concept is what do you wanna sacrifice for success? Because you can not have exceptional outcomes if you don't sacrifice something. And so how do you think about that? Like on say, like a monthly time horizon, a year time horizon, or a quarter time horizon?
Khurram Naik:Like how do you think about this is what I'm sacrificing for this payoff?
Priyanka Timblo:I think you need to call a spade a spade and and know that you're sacrificing it and don't mince words, you know? And and and that to me, that has been more helpful than anything, than like pretending I'm not sacrificing it or pretending like, Oh, this isn't going to affect them at all. It's totally okay for me to miss the first week of school because I'm in trial. Like, no. I'm making a sacrifice and it sucks for them.
Priyanka Timblo:But I am devoted to my client and their outcomes. And I need to be there for my client that week. And I worked in the weeks before to set it up so all my kids had everything there. And I sat them down and I talked to them. And I made sure that they could be everything could go as well as it could that week.
Priyanka Timblo:But yeah, no, it's a total sacrifice. And to me, as long as I'm calling a spade a spade and seeing that it's a sacrifice and even acknowledging that like, yeah, maybe they weren't best placed that week to not have me there. Right? But I am not there because I am choosing. No one is forcing me.
Priyanka Timblo:I am choosing to be there for what I need to be there for my client. Right. That's really important to me too, because like I told you, I'm all in and when I'm devoted to a client and their needs and their outcome, am devoted to their needs and their outcomes. And so, you know, just being being sort of, you know, very, very blunt and clear and and and realistic with myself that I am making those sacrifices is easier than pretending that everything's okay.
Khurram Naik:Now on the topic of being all in, so you've had this extraordinary win last year, and now you're a little less of the underdog now. Maybe you're the dog now. That doesn't really sound right. The overdog. So now, like, on the time horizon, let's say about a year.
Khurram Naik:In the time span of say about a year from now, you know, what is it that you're most excited about your progress or a year from now looking back, like what do you expect to be looking back with pride on in this coming year?
Priyanka Timblo:This has been an amazing year. This is the you know, there's a sense like, oh my god, after the Walmart win, am I ever gonna do fun stuff again? And it's just been the opposite. Like, I I have challenged myself. So like I said, this year, I've been on trial, like six or seven times, you know, I've gotten to do I've gotten an opportunity to do like examinations in very close proximity in slightly smaller settings.
Priyanka Timblo:And that has presented a very unique opportunity for me to hone my craft and to evolve as a lawyer and to also, you know, deepen my knowledge of antitrust law, which I have done. And to here's the other part of it. It's also making me, you know, the work that I was talking about earlier, how you've got to like go into yourself and do the inner work to become better at your craft, right? To become better at my craft, I've been doing more inner work. I've been doing more meditation, doing more reading, actually putting those things into practice.
Priyanka Timblo:And so this feels like a year where even though I've been working immensely hard, I've actually been caring for myself and improving my own abilities to be resilient and strong along with it as part of the work. And so doing the work and doing the work at this higher level is making me a stronger person and a better mom and a happier person. I mean, not no mom of the year awards for the mom who missed the first week of school, believe me. But, you know, I actually looking back at this year, it looks completely different than, you know, the year of the Walmart verdict, but, and it's had its own set of extreme challenges, but I've gotten to really, you know, in trying to master my craft and get better at it, get to know myself more. And that's, you know, it feels like the right moment to do that because I'm about to turn 40.
Priyanka Timblo:And that feels like a milestone too.
Khurram Naik:I think it will have a lot to celebrate at 40. Well, we're out of time Priyanka, this is amazing. We could definitely go for probably another two hours, but I know you have many of the demands of your time. But this is incredible. And I hope we'll revisit this.
Khurram Naik:You'll come back on in the coming years.
Priyanka Timblo:Coram, this was a true pleasure. Loved getting to know you in this process. I I it's really fun to talk back and forth with someone who is so well read and who has thought so deeply about some of this some of this really high level fuzzy stuff that is hard to pin down. So it's been a unique pleasure and thank you. I'm honored to be on.