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This episode marks the Accounting Leaders Podcast’s 50th release. To celebrate, we flipped the tables on our show host and Karbon CEO, Stuart McLeod. No question was off limits. In this episode, Karbon’s Content Marketing Specialist, Jess Marcello, and Marketing Development Manager, George Connor, had a lively conversation with Stuart about the hardest part of running a growing firm, how to find meaning and purpose in work, Karbon’s culture, Stuart’s favorite Karbon employee, and everything in between.
Join Stuart McLeod as he interviews the world's top accounting leaders to understand their story, how they operate, their goals, mission, and top advice to help you run your accounting firm.
Jess 00:00:00.092 G'day. This is Jess and George from Karbon.
George 00:00:02.301 Hi.
Jess 00:00:02.970 This episode is a milestone for us at the Accounting Leaders Podcast. It's 50 episodes. So we decided to do something a little bit different and flip the tables on our host and Karbon CEO Stuart McLeod.
George 00:00:13.950 And we had a really good time. But unfortunately, it was recorded just before some layoffs at Karbon. And we just wanted to flag that up top since this episode's pretty light in tone and it might feel a little jarring if you've read news about it.
Jess 00:00:26.737 We're going to put a link to Stuart's letter that he sent to all Karbon employees in the show notes, including a list full of excellent employees who are now looking for a job.
George 00:00:35.711 We hope you enjoy listening to a couple of Aussies and a Kiwi, that's me, chat about old tech, culture, and hydrofoils for some unknown reason. See you after the intro music. [music]
Stuart 00:00:52.631 Hi. I'm Stuart McLeod, CEO and co-founder of Karbon. Welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast, the show where I go behind-the-scenes with the world's top accounting leaders. George and Jess welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast. The 50th episode no less.
George 00:01:11.504 Wow. Lovely to be here coming to you from what appears to be a broom closet in sunny downtown Nelson, New Zealand.
Stuart 00:01:18.663 It's a lovely looking broom closet.
George 00:01:20.426 Yeah. Thank you.
Stuart 00:01:20.981 Jess so good to see you. Welcome.
Jess 00:01:23.024 You too, Stu. Thanks so much. I'm pumped for this. This is going to be good.
Stuart 00:01:25.688 What the hell are you doing here?
Jess 00:01:27.581 That's a good question. I ask myself that every single day. But hopefully, we're here to have a real nice chat with you. Stu, deep dive?
Stuart 00:01:37.076 I would love that, Jess. That's sound great. Now let's start at the start. And ladies before gentlemen. Jess, when did you join Karbon and what is your role today? And no pressure. Are you still having fun?
Jess 00:01:48.749 I'll leave that part of the question 'til later. [laughter]
George 00:01:51.261 Ouch.
Jess 00:01:52.674 No. I've been here I'm nearing on two years, actually. I was one of those lucky people that sort of changed jobs in the midst of the pandemic. So it was - sorry - 2020 when I joined Karbon. And I'm the content marketing specialist. So that means anything in Karbon Magazine really is there because I wrote it or edited it or put it there in some way. That's a plug right there. Karbon Magazine. That's at karbonhq.com/resources, so.
Stuart 00:02:22.655 There you go. Slash resources. It is fair to say that the Karbon Magazine is fucking great because of you. And for that--
Jess 00:02:27.992 Thanks a bunch.
Stuart 00:02:28.858 --we are eternally thankful and grateful.
George 00:02:31.744 I helped as well. I just want to [crosstalk]--
Stuart 00:02:33.374 Oh, did you? Are you sure?
Jess 00:02:34.238 George also helps. No one would be able to actually read Karbon Magazine if it wasn't for George.
George 00:02:41.838 Well, I have written an article.
Stuart 00:02:43.757 Somebody's got to get it up there.
Jess 00:02:45.290 Yeah. But we see it because of you.
Stuart 00:02:48.270 George is definitely a Karbon veteran. Do you recall the date that you joined Karbon George?
George 00:02:53.785 Well, let's see. No. That's how long ago it was. My first lot of shares have finished vesting. So I guess that puts me at over four, five years. I think that's probably about right. I'm coming to you live from sunny Nelson. Beautiful downtown Bridge Street in what - I was just thinking about this this morning - might be Karbon's longest continually inhabited office.
Stuart 00:03:23.343 Oh, that could be true.
George 00:03:25.234 I think the Nelson office--
Stuart 00:03:26.575 It was well and truly pre-Sydney.
George 00:03:29.422 Pre the current Sydney.
Stuart 00:03:31.406 Yes.
George 00:03:31.578 Post the Ultimo office.
Stuart 00:03:34.310 Yeah. And then I've moved around. And we've opened and closed offices all over America. Melbourne we've never had, really, enough people to sort of-- and Melbourne nobody wants to get on the eastern for an hour and a half, and then up--
Jess 00:03:48.239 Yeah. Exactly right. Yeah.
Stuart 00:03:51.472 Then up Punt Road that nobody calls Punt Road anymore. And then--
George 00:03:55.367 Oh, what do they call it?
Stuart 00:03:56.434 Oh, George. What rhymes with punt that makes you [crosstalk]--
George 00:04:00.761 Oh, my brother used to live off Punt Road right down by the water. Oh, that's funny.
Jess 00:04:06.517 But I feel like if we're going to be talking about offices and particularly the Nelson office, I think is a really good opportunity to explain the origins of the Nelson office George.
George 00:04:14.671 I think Nelson and Australia content is great international podcasting material. It's right up there talking about the weather in LA.
Stuart 00:04:23.420 Yeah. Yeah. And the movie that just came out. I don't know. Do you guys listen to Conan? I never liked Conan O'Brien's Tonight Show on telly, but a great admirer of his Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. And Gert Gourley, who's a well-known podcast producer, Matt Gourley, and he is constantly schooling Conan on evergreen content. And would be very disappointed in us if we talked about, say, politics of the day or something like that.
George 00:04:54.607 Oh, right. Okay. Well--
Stuart 00:04:56.437 But geographical content is okay because we do-- my mum lives in Australia, so we've got at least three listeners. But I actually did want to ask, Jess, now you're in Ringwood, aren't you?
Jess 00:05:08.911 I'm actually, as of Saturday, in Warranwood.
Stuart 00:05:11.749 In Warranwood?
Jess 00:05:12.227 Just--
Stuart 00:05:12.496 Okay. So you were in Ringwood?
Jess 00:05:13.189 Yeah. So 10 minutes up the road. Yep.
Stuart 00:05:15.730 I spent nearly every Sunday of my early childhood driving in a-- well, I didn't drive because that would be illegal. First, in a purple Valiant Charger, and then I reckon in a Toyota Corolla station wagon from Mount Waverley to Ringwood to visit my dad's grandparents. And nanna made the best scones on earth. Scones--
Jess 00:05:44.299 Of course.
Stuart 00:05:45.000 --or biscuits if I'm translating.
George 00:05:47.841 Don't do that.
Stuart 00:05:48.710 But Australian grandma-made scones are the most beautiful, light, fluffy things in world history.
Jess 00:05:56.032 [And jam?].
Stuart 00:05:55.936 With jam and cream. And they live just near the cricket ground in Ringwood, which you would probably know.
Jess 00:06:01.310 Cricket ground in Ringwood?
Stuart 00:06:02.173 Yep. Or not.
Jess 00:06:02.958 Where's the cricket ground in Ringwood? No, I don't. Okay. See, where is that in relation to Eastland? That's my--
Stuart 00:06:08.965 Oh, okay. No. All right.
Jess 00:06:10.713 But it's been a minute since you've been to Ringwood though.
Stuart 00:06:12.785 A long minute.
Jess 00:06:14.644 Yeah. It's a bit different now.
Stuart 00:06:16.066 At least 15 years probably.
Jess 00:06:18.687 Yeah. It's very different now. Yeah. It is packed. It's proper packed there. Apartments, units, townhouses, all of that. We've just moved out of an attached townhouse out there. And it's very concrete jungly for the outer eastern suburbs of Melbourne.
Stuart 00:06:36.425 Yes. I bet. I bet. I bet. No, it was pretty--
Jess 00:06:37.772 Yeah. But it's so convenient.
Stuart 00:06:39.442 Was pretty open and very suburban. I mean, it was literally the outskirts of Melbourne 30-odd years ago. So there you go. I'm sure even more. 35 years ago. Fuck I'm showing my age.
Jess 00:06:51.610 Oft.
Stuart 00:06:53.562 There you go. I thought I would try and--
Jess 00:06:55.128 Yeah. There you go.
George 00:06:56.079 Can we circle back to Delilah for a minute, please?
Stuart 00:06:58.453 Yes. Of course.
George 00:06:58.953 This dog of yours, did that make it onto the Karbon pet page?
Stuart 00:07:02.585 I don't know if Delilah's on the pet page. Delilah is our second Bernese Mountain Dog.
George 00:07:08.565 [crosstalk].
Stuart 00:07:09.329 The first Bernese Mountain Dog Darius was a well-known Xero at first in Hawthorn and then Karbon dog. The reason that the Xero office in Hawthorn exists is because it was a 15-minute walk from my place. And Darius would often walk with me in the morning to the Xero office and sit under my desk very scared. He's 110 pounds of wuss. Everything that moved scared Darius.
Jess 00:07:43.084 Oh, Darius.
George 00:07:44.534 I can confirm Delilah's not on the Karbon pet page--
Stuart 00:07:48.205 All right. Well, we--
George 00:07:48.561 --which is a great shame.
Jess 00:07:49.410 We should rectify that.
Stuart 00:07:50.670 We can rectify that. We also have a cat called Walter who I call the death animal. I'm quite allergic to cats. And you can see how democracy works in my house. I lose.
George 00:08:02.655 You're not tempted to get one of those cats with no hair like Jourdan's one?
Stuart 00:08:05.596 Oh, fuck. I think I'd just have to-- they're silly. He's so--
George 00:08:09.526 Go on. No, tell us what you really feel.
Stuart 00:08:12.003 But I just don't get it. I don't get it. I appreciate why people might do it, but it's not for me.
George 00:08:19.306 Just because of the hairlessness?
Stuart 00:08:20.668 Well, just because I mean, I don't like cats to start with. Even good-looking cats. Stupid-looking cats even. Just doesn't make sense.
George 00:08:28.587 This is going to tank the ratings. Unbelievable. Cat slander on the air.
Stuart 00:08:33.687 We've lost both listeners.
Jess 00:08:34.448 Cut. Cut. Cut.
George 00:08:36.424 Yeah. So as you know I've just come out of isolation for a horrible sickness which has left me with a very crappy brain which is incapable of doing anything but one of the things that it did give me was time to write down some questions in no particular order. 20 COVID questions. Should we get into it? We say a hard one. Do you want to do a hard, serious one or a hard, not serious one?
Jess 00:09:02.098 Let's go hard serious. Let's just throw him in the deep end.
Stuart 00:09:04.229 Okay. Start off.
George 00:09:05.094 Okay. What is the hardest part-- I'm going to start with a-- I'm going to start with a puff piece. We're going to start with a Karbon-related question. What's the hardest part of running Karbon to get right? And I want to preface this by saying, obviously, you're not the only person who runs Karbon. It's a team effort. But from where you're sitting, what's the thing that's the biggest lift?
Stuart 00:09:23.292 Oh, alignment. I just think that the hardest transition-- and this is related. I'm not obfuscating the question. The hardest transition to make, I think, as we grow or as any company grows is sort of the constant abstraction of your meaning. Do you know what I mean?
George 00:09:44.148 No. [laughter] [crosstalk].
Jess 00:09:46.038 With 10 people, we can sit down in a room, hopefully, either virtual or physical, and I can talk about where we're going and what we need to be able to do in the next sort of one week, one month, one year. And that, generally speaking, is what people hear because of the intimacy of that room and that those people would get to know me and get to know each other, and we understand more the way that those people view the world through their own lens. You can tailor the meaning by which you're trying to relay, right? But when there's 200 people, I don't understand people's worldview. I can't relay what I'm trying to articulate in so many ways that everybody comes away with the same message, right? So I can say 1 thing, but 200 people are going to take that 200 different ways. Hopefully, a little bit similarly, but not always, right? And so what I find the hardest is to keep 200 or 20, 200, 2,000, hopefully not 20,000 - I never want that many people - people aligned in the direction that we want to take Karbon and focus on the things that we need to get done and make sure that we're doing the right things at the right time in the right order. That's the hardest thing.
George 00:11:11.425 I feel like it's further exacerbated, right? When there are 10 or 15 of you, which is in some ways a great time--
Stuart 00:11:19.003 Oh, isn't it? Yep.
George 00:11:20.288 Well, kind of everybody's doing a bit of everything, right? The lines between people who create content, people who write code, and the people who deal with clients, all those things are a lot blurrier and there's a lot more bleed over. It's a lot easier for someone to have a holistic idea of what the hell's going on, right?
Stuart 00:11:35.413 Correct.
George 00:11:35.789 Which is something I struggle with now having been here for a while. When I started, it was very easy to kind of have visibility across all the things that are happening and now stuff just turns up kind of whole cloth. Initiatives have been run. And it's [net?], obviously. We can do so much stuff. Stuff just turns up and you're like, "Well, what the hell's this? How did I not know about this thing?"
Stuart 00:11:57.539 Yeah. But I experienced the same thing, George. It's not just you, right?
George 00:12:02.240 I'm sure it's not. Well, I mean, it's exacerbated because I'm not really paying attention a lot of the time.
Stuart 00:12:05.684 Oh, no. But that comes back to alignment, right? Somebody might have a great idea and execute really well, but if it's not leading up to what the company is trying to achieve-- or any organisation for that matter, right? It doesn't have to be a so-called for-profit. Although we're pretty much not-for-profit, mostly. It is difficult to keep-- it takes longer, it takes more energy, and more effort to keep more people aligned. And I reckon somebody a lot smarter than me would have a-- it's not linear, right? The energy required to keep 200 people aligned is greater than 10 times the energy that it took 20 people to stay aligned, if you get what I mean?
George 00:12:47.713 Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, every layer of kind of management adds another layer of noise, right, to the signal?
Stuart 00:12:53.079 Yep. And we try--
George 00:12:54.446 [crosstalk].
Stuart 00:12:55.195 --and stay pretty flat, but it's hard.
George 00:12:57.697 If we're talking about how to keep everyone aligned, how do you keep everyone happy Stu?
Stuart 00:13:03.038 Ha! You can't. You can't.
George 00:13:06.500 I can't even keep myself happy.
Stuart 00:13:07.892 [crosstalk]. You guys' aren't paid therapists, but you can speak to my therapist about happiness. I don't think it's my job to keep everybody happy, right? That's kind of the, "Do you like or respect your leadership?" And I'll take respect over like every day of the week. I would prefer people are happy. And I want to create a work environment - we want to create a work environment - where people are happy and that they enjoy their work and they get meaning from their work. But if you're not, please, your mental health, your physical health, your own life is your own life, right? Everybody - not just Karbon people, but everybody - should be seeking work where they gain purpose and meaning because that typically contributes to your happiness and your mental health.
Jess 00:14:03.648 Yeah. Taking responsibility of your own--?
Stuart 00:14:06.384 Yeah.
Jess 00:14:07.044 Of your own happiness and--?
George 00:14:07.706 We should all be so lucky as to be able to seek work that we find meaningful and gratifying.
Jess 00:14:12.687 True. True.
Stuart 00:14:13.153 Well, I mean, let's get into that. I still find meaning and purpose in what we do, right? And that's genuine. I'm not bullshitting. I'm not making that up. If I didn't, I wouldn't want to do it, right? And I've actually found-- and again, this is not bullshit. I've actually found more meaning and more purpose as we've grown and our reach expands.
George 00:14:34.986 Oh, that's interesting.
Stuart 00:14:35.975 The effect that Karbon has on our firms, our clients, is true and is important. Because without us, their journey is not as good, right? They'd probably still be-- there's probably accountants, they're probably still doing great things in the world, but they're not enjoying it as much or they're not as efficient or as effective. Their contribution isn't as great. Their morale in the office or virtual environment is not as significant or it's not as impressive as it otherwise might be. And I still get joy and meaning out of that. And this podcast has opened my eyes a lot because nearly - not quite. Nearly - every partner of a firm that I speak to just exudes joy when they talk about the successful journeys that they've been on with their clients. And I love that. I really do. And I think we have an outsized role to play in creating those journeys, and I think that that has meaning and that has purpose. That's what I get out of bed for. And everybody else needs their own purpose and their own meaning. But that's what I do. That's what I get from it.
George 00:15:49.340 Yeah. I mean, it's alignment again, right? Understanding the problem that we're actually here to solve and measuring the success in some way.
Jess 00:15:54.448 And the role we play. Yeah.
George 00:15:56.802 Yeah. Exactly that. It's so easy to get stuck.
Stuart 00:15:59.323 It is.
George 00:15:59.546 I mean, Jess and I are both in-- we both work in marketing in different parts of the thing. Jess creates content. I write code for the most part. Well, I go to meetings for the most part. It's very easy to lose sight-- well, at least for me. I mean, Jess, you could speak to your experience. It's very easy for me to lose sight of what we're actually doing because I mean, I-- like you say, Karbon is a-- it's a good product and it does meaningful stuff. It does actually help people. But at the end of the day, we make a product and we sell it. And I don't even make the product. I just make the thing that helps sell the product. So it's very easy for me to lose sight of what my contribution is to the actual thing.
Stuart 00:16:43.187 Completely.
Jess 00:16:43.101 Yeah. The big picture.
Stuart 00:16:44.298 Completely.
George 00:16:44.543 Yeah. And I guess that's an alignment issue, right? Making sure that people like me know why they're doing the stuff they're doing besides [crosstalk] for it.
Stuart 00:16:51.896 Completely. Absolutely.
Jess 00:16:53.469 Yeah. And I think with Karbon Magazine, it's an extension. Our values and mission and what we're doing over at Karbon Magazine it's an extension of what we're doing at Karbon Karbon. It's all to do with the global accounting firms. Accounting firms right across the world. Accounting leaders. Whereas Karbon makes the way they do their work easier, more fulfilling, and all the things that you spoke about Stu. And Karbon Magazine really is just a support for that. It's there to educate, inspire, motivate, and help firms that don't use Karbon as well. You don't have to be a Karbon customer to come to Karbon Magazine and get value. So I wouldn't be able to do or to produce half-decent content if that wasn't at the forefront of my mind all day every day for articles that I do run, articles that I don't. Everything that passes through to the publication, like the publication process, always has to tick those boxes. Always.
Stuart 00:17:55.002 And the work that you do for Karbon Magazine and the work that you do for the-- I mean, George was the only website person for a long time. And--
Jess 00:18:05.196 Really long time.
Stuart 00:18:08.320 I don't know if this helps or hinders, but in my mind, there is-- and I learnt this from the Sharkey brothers who built Autopilot. They were Aussies in San Francisco. I think they're back home now. And he said to me - and I've embraced it ever since - is, "It is our responsibility to put Karbon in the hands of as many people as we possibly can so that their life is furthered. That they gain the joy and the momentum and the morale, and the peace of mind, all the benefits that other firms are getting." And each and every one of us plays a role in that, if nothing else.
Jess 00:18:48.846 That's right. Absolutely. I feel like now's a good chance, while we're sort of talking, gone deep a little bit into Karbon, let's pivot ever so slightly and have a chat about culture because everyone likes talking about culture.
George 00:19:00.295 Yeah. Stop talking about the product.
Jess 00:19:02.183 Yeah. So we're growing, and everyone knows that we're making waves. We're doing our thing. So in that, how do we preserve our culture and our personal relationships as we do grow and keep going along our trajectory?
Stuart 00:19:16.974 Well, it's fucking hard, isn't it? We work every day to try and do so. I think the pace that we've grown this year has made that job extra hard. It's really hard. I mean, I don't think we've had any major fuck ups, disasters, implosions or anything like that, which is a relief. I've noticed sort of, as we grow, there are processes, procedures, and red tape. Not much, but just you bring in different people. You bring in people with different experiences. You are going to get a different work experience. And that's absolutely normal, and it's fine and it's to be expected. How do we maintain the thing that we-- or improve the culture that we have worked so hard to keep? Well, at the end of the day, there's a lot of us that are core to Karbon that are here. The original founding team. The founders. The early employees. The Georges, the Saras, the Paxs, the-- no true. The Tims, the Lachie's of the world. All these great people will - and have - ensure that we still have a great work experience. And while those people are still at Karbon, I think our culture is going to be one of pretty unique. We do have a unique culture. We do things our own funny way.
George 00:20:46.913 Do you think we should have a shot at articulating what that kind of culture is for people who-- I'm hoping that there are people who don't work at Karbon listening to this, so. Not just your mum, right? [laughter]
Jess 00:20:58.063 [crosstalk].
Stuart 00:20:59.454 I think mum gave up a long time ago, anyway. [laughter]
George 00:21:00.872 [crosstalk].
Stuart 00:21:03.621 Well, okay. So we have three company objectives this year. The first one is build the greatest practice management platform in the world. The second is become one of the industry’s greatest employers. And the third is build the Karbon Operating System. The Karbon Operating System, part of that was to try and codify our culture. Is try and write down what makes us great. It's not what we do, but how we do it. So yes, I think we should have a go at writing it down and trying to instil our rituals and those kinds of things.
George 00:21:36.342 It's dodgy terrain, isn't it--
Stuart 00:21:38.027 It is.
George 00:21:37.969 --codifying a culture?
Stuart 00:21:39.252 It is. It is. It's--
Jess 00:21:39.271 Yeah. It's hard to articulate, hey?
Stuart 00:21:41.307 Well, it's also arguably an oxymoron, right?
George 00:21:45.604 Yes.
Stuart 00:21:46.422 Codifying a culture is the antithesis of actually a culture. Or ours, anyway.
George 00:21:53.474 Yeah. That's right.
Jess 00:21:54.374 I don't know if I read it somewhere or heard someone say it or something, but I feel like the OG Karbon culture, which I think is still prevalent today, is no dickheads.
George 00:22:05.777 No dickheads. Well--
Jess 00:22:06.652 No dickheads. Don't be a dickhead.
George 00:22:07.998 I mean, the original dickheads are-- and the original dickheads are grandfathered in, but no dickheads. [laughter]
Stuart 00:22:11.959 Yet. I'm still here. [laughter]
George 00:22:15.105 [crosstalk]. [laughter]
Stuart 00:22:18.322 No matter how big the effort was. [laughter]
Jess 00:22:22.135 And it's just another element-- when you're hiring and you're picking the people that you'd like to be on this journey, it makes it more specific, arguably harder, but I think 100% worth it.
Stuart 00:22:35.228 I think if you-- I mean, we say that facetiously. And I was the one that sort of introduced that concept, and I introduced it because I had worked with people that I didn't enjoy working with. And at the end of the day, you have to enjoy the journey. We have to be able to get up in the morning and enjoy more days than you don't, right? And if I'm working with arseholes or idiots or people that I just do not enjoy spending time with, then what the fuck, right? It's just not worthwhile. So we don't say it in a way that it's-- we don't mean it in the way that it sounds, right? Like we're trying to be exclusive and isolationary to people with unsavoury personalities, but-- [laughter]
George 00:23:21.993 But yes, we are.
Stuart 00:23:23.205 But yes, we are. [laughter] It is our choice. It is our choice with who we work with. And again, it's sort of funny the-- as we've got bigger, people sort of don't love us sort of articulating it like that. So I'll try and unpack it for you a little bit and say, okay. Well, perhaps a better way of saying it these days might be like just hire people that you want to work with. That you enjoy working with. That challenge you. That are intellectual. That do great things. That do great work, and that you can rely on. You can trust. Articulating it like that is probably a much better--
Jess 00:24:01.312 Much more diplomatic, Stu.
Stuart 00:24:02.947 Yes. Yes. Yes. See how I've grown over the years? [laughter]
Jess 00:24:06.099 Oh, so grown up. [laughter] I think that's a good opportunity. Let's go a little bit away from Karbon because, arguably, it's consumed your life for nearly a decade. But when you were growing up in Melbourne - the greatest city in the world in my humble opinion - what did you want to be when you grew up? Is this it?
Stuart 00:24:27.300 Yeah. Yep.
George 00:24:29.914 Asked and answered. [laughter] Next question.
Jess 00:24:32.505 Basically. [laughter]
Stuart 00:24:33.542 Yeah. Yeah. I had an Apple IIe in-- fuck.
George 00:24:41.064 '82-ish.
Stuart 00:24:42.390 No. '82. No. I was only eight. My wife was one. That's funny. I was eight. I reckon I was about 12. At the end of-- the end of high school. No. The end of primary school, I reckon. So yeah, about '84, '85. We couldn't afford a proper IBM, and so we had an IBM-- a 386 clone. You guys are too young for all this stuff.
George 00:25:15.557 No, I'm not.
Jess 00:25:15.981 I'm way too young. This is just gibberish right now. [laughter]
George 00:25:19.815 I had a Commodore 64.
Stuart 00:25:21.358 Yeah. Nice. Nice.
George 00:25:21.381 That's what I cut my teeth on.
Jess 00:25:23.581 Next door had a Commodore. The boy's next door had a 64 and the green screen. They even upgraded to a two colour, green and orange, at one stage. That was a big deal.
George 00:25:31.782 Oh, dang. That's flash. On the weekend, sometimes I was allowed to take the TV upstairs so I could play in colour.
Stuart 00:25:36.309 Oh. I don't think our--
George 00:25:38.860 A special treat.
Stuart 00:25:38.900 --GPU ever did colour. You were lucky. The floppy disk. The 5 1/4 floppy disk. The 3 1/2 inch, which--
George 00:25:47.430 Oh, you didn't have a tape drive?
Stuart 00:25:49.400 We had cartridge, but never a tape. Never tapes.
George 00:25:53.727 You weren't missing much.
Stuart 00:25:55.928 But more to the point, we-- as a Melbourne growing up in Mount Waverley, which was pretty-- you can't get much more sort of middle class than Mount Waverley. I sort of looked at San Francisco and-- I was always interested in tech. I did an IT degree at Swinburne, which I always wanted to get into. It actually paid you to go and-- to go to college. Which I did a work experience at Oracle, and I really enjoyed that. And that ended up being my first job and gained a huge amount of experience there. It was a great learning environment for somebody like me. And then always sort of looked at San Francisco as the centre of the technology world. I read a lot about tech and just sort of always wanted to be a part of it and be amongst it. And it turns out that I just wasn't a very good employee. So it wasn't that I wanted to be a CEO or anything. And I wish somebody had of kind of helped me with this actually, but I never really sort of sat down and worked out a very considered career path. I never sort of said, "Oh, okay. Well, I'm going to do this for five years, and then I'm going to do that. And then I'm going to be this and that." It's something that I try-- my kids aren't quite old enough to be thinking about that stuff, but it's certainly something that I wish that I had at 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Something, "All right. Be a bit more strategic about what you're going to do." But anyway, I'm happy with where it's-- how it's turned out. And yeah, so I did. Yes, I always wanted to be involved in technology and part of it and amongst it.
Jess 00:27:32.479 Was there a defining moment where you realised that you weren't a very good employee? Was there one--?
Stuart 00:27:38.164 When I got sacked. [laughter]
George 00:27:40.730 [crosstalk]. [laughter]
Jess 00:27:39.780 Where you were like, uh-oh. Hang on a minute? [laughter]
Stuart 00:27:44.520 My first job was at a petrol station. It was the graveyard shift, and I fell asleep and got sacked. And then, yeah, just in Oracle, I'd sort of done nearly four years, five years, and then I just felt constrained. I don't think there was a single moment. But they were getting a little bit frustrated with me and sort of said, "What do you want to be in life?" And I'm like, "Well, I feel sort of hemmed in here." And then even, I'm sure that some people at Xero probably got frustrated with me at the end. It was sort of-- when we started there, it was sort of 90 staff. And then when we finished, it was sort of like 1,200. And I'm like, "Oh, God. I remember why I can't work for big companies." Was sort of not fair on them, but I'm just not made-- I'm just not built for it. If you've ever done the Enneagram, I'm an eight. And things that are out of our control is a very anxiety-producing. And so, as an employee, a lot of things are outside of your control. As an employer, a lot of things are outside of your control, only slightly less. Just a little bit less. [laughter]
George 00:28:58.962 So Andy, who works in my office - Andy Biggs. Previous Karbon employee. Previous Xero employee - now works for a company called SpeedCurve. They have a very strict no-growth policy. They have decided that they're never going to make their company so large they all can't fit in one vehicle. That's their metric.
Jess 00:29:18.899 Wow!
George 00:29:19.121 They want to make sure they can always go on a road trip together.
Stuart 00:29:21.679 Good on them.
George 00:29:22.006 Just gets me wondering. Do we have a cap? You say you don't want to work for a 1,200 or whatever, right? How big is too big and what do we do when we approach the target?
Stuart 00:29:30.253 Yeah. I did say 20,000; I think the tape will say. But--
George 00:29:32.775 Oh, okay. My brain is not a brain.
Stuart 00:29:37.219 Do we have a cap?
George 00:29:38.543 Or do you have a dream size, I guess, maybe, is better than that?
Stuart 00:29:41.199 Well, I do think the journey from 10 million to say 30 million or 10 million to 50 million of run rate is probably the most-- the fun, right? I've experienced that before. And you've got the resources to produce what you want to be able to produce, to be able to hire more or less what you want to be able to hire, and get done what you want to get done without too much bullshit getting in the way. And I think--
George 00:30:07.039 Yeah. That'd be great.
Stuart 00:30:08.125 --hopefully, we've maintained that more or less and will for some years to come. Past 100 million is - probably sort of 5, 6 hundred people, maybe more - starts to get a company size that's a different type of organisation. And you do see a lot of turnover as companies progress through that kind of area. I don't think we're the type of company that would look at it as a people cap. I do think that our goal is to get Karbon into the hands of as many accountants as we can possibly do or as we can possibly manage. And kind of everything flows from there, right, rather than sort of looking at it the other way round.
George 00:30:47.660 Hey, Stu?
Stuart 00:30:49.887 Jess?
George 00:30:50.258 What scares you?
Stuart 00:30:52.839 Climate change.
George 00:30:56.468 Word.
Stuart 00:30:58.074 Go back to my Enneagram type. The things that are positively outside of my control or actively outside of my control can be anxiety-producing and can be worrying. Like the Earth that we're leaving for our kids and their kids and their kids. I'm heavily involved in the ski team where I live. It's like, "Okay. Well, how many years have we got left of snow? Are we going to see-- are we going to get a season in my lifetime where there's no snow locally?" Selfishly, that's scary.
George 00:31:32.717 Oh, snows really, really important for lots of reasons.
Stuart 00:31:35.751 Well, I realise it might sound facetious, but it is. [laughter]
George 00:31:40.961 No, no, it really is.
Stuart 00:31:42.739 The lake that we live in or-- live in! We don't live under-- we don't live in it. We live near it. [laughter]
George 00:31:48.576 Bottom of a lake.
Stuart 00:31:50.069 Our podcast gets a little bit burbly sometimes. Relies on the snow melt for many living organisms and all this. The ecosystem of snow is really important where we live. And it would be tragic if that doesn't happen. So there you go. That's my answer.
Jess 00:32:09.786 Yeah. Wow. Let's pick up the mood now. I'm sad. Go, George. Quick.
George 00:32:16.516 Free will or destiny? I'm picking things out of my list now.
Stuart 00:32:19.749 Oh, is this the first thing that comes to your mind?
Jess 00:32:23.052 Yeah. Let's go rapid-fire.
George 00:32:23.651 Well, yeah. Well, you can ask clarifying questions if you want to.
Stuart 00:32:26.340 Oh, God. I've never done that one. Destiny, I think.
George 00:32:30.667 Okay. All right. [crosstalk].
Jess 00:32:32.277 Yeah. I like that.
George 00:32:33.849 You like that?
Jess 00:32:34.952 Yeah. I don't know. Something romantic about destiny.
George 00:32:36.376 That's what frightens me. Really?
Jess 00:32:38.997 Yeah.
George 00:32:38.940 At the expense of free will, though? Not really being in control of your own life?
Jess 00:32:42.521 I think the free will's built into destiny. I don't know. Yeah. That's all I've got. I've got no clarifying on that. That's what I feel.
Stuart 00:32:52.182 I think some things are a little bit preordained by the things that motivate you, and therefore, that feels more destiny than free will.
George 00:32:59.041 Yeah. I mean, I guess, for me, it comes down to, is the human brain just a state machine? Given that you know-- if you can know everything about your brain and you know everything about the inputs, can you reliably determine the outputs, if you can?
Stuart 00:33:12.216 Are we in a simulation?
George 00:33:14.581 Yeah.
Jess 00:33:15.923 Are we though?
George 00:33:17.117 Well, there's only one way to find out, and that's to build another simulation.
Stuart 00:33:20.439 To watch the Jim Carrey movie again. Yeah. No. Is everything preordained? No.
George 00:33:27.379 No.
Stuart 00:33:27.614 But I think we have-- we have a path that is optimum. I reckon that's what I believe. And sometimes you have to fight to stay on it and be brave and have tough conversations and make difficult choices. But, yeah. There you go. I'd never thought about the alternative, so.
George 00:33:49.548 Wow. That's pretty good off-the-cuff for a yes or no question.
Jess 00:33:52.658 Yeah. Well done.
George 00:33:54.248 How are we doing for time, Jess? You've got a hard out, right?
Jess 00:33:56.537 I do have a hard out in about 13 minutes.
George 00:33:58.540 13 minutes? All right.
Jess 00:34:00.536 Oh, well, yeah, 12 now.
George 00:34:01.865 What do you want to do now?
Jess 00:34:02.411 So let's rapid fire.
George 00:34:04.597 We're going to do some rapid fire?
Jess 00:34:05.786 Why not?
Stuart 00:34:06.740 Go for it.
Jess 00:34:07.258 Tofu. Yes? No?
George 00:34:07.488 Shall we go--?
Jess 00:34:08.706 Oh, George.
George 00:34:08.947 Shit.
Jess 00:34:11.254 Pretend you didn't hear that Stu. Don't come up with an answer first.
George 00:34:15.935 [crosstalk].
Jess 00:34:17.534 [crosstalk].
George 00:34:17.783 I was going to say, do you want to go-- do you want to go round the horn? We could take it in turns to ask questions.
Jess 00:34:21.262 Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm going to go first. And Tofu. Yes? No?
Stuart 00:34:26.239 No. No fucking way.
George 00:34:27.981 Yes.
Stuart 00:34:28.672 No fucking way.
George 00:34:29.011 Yeah. All the time of the day.
Stuart 00:34:29.967 It's rubber.
Jess 00:34:31.451 I had it for dinner last night.
George 00:34:31.583 False.
Jess 00:34:32.737 It was fanfuckingtastic. Delish.
George 00:34:35.786 What's the most trivial thing that you're passionate about right now?
Stuart 00:34:39.074 Foiling.
Jess 00:34:41.663 Oh, what?
George 00:34:43.472 Foiling?
Stuart 00:34:44.022 Behind the boat.
George 00:34:45.273 Hydrofoiling?
Stuart 00:34:46.322 Yeah. On a surfboard.
Jess 00:34:48.947 No. No, I don't know what that is.
Stuart 00:34:49.877 [crosstalk].
Jess 00:34:50.411 Hang on. Explain.
George 00:34:51.492 You know the America's Cup boats, how they go up on the thing?
Stuart 00:34:54.500 Yes. But this is four-foot long, right? So you know wake boarding behind a boat?
Jess 00:35:00.416 Yeah. Yeah.
Stuart 00:35:01.526 Yeah. And then there's wake surfing, which you sort of just surf a short board behind the boat. There's a surfboard with a foil attached to it and you can sort of elevate out of the water being towed by the boat.
George 00:35:15.218 If you're very, very talented at foiling, you can kind of pump it, right?
Stuart 00:35:18.621 That's right.
George 00:35:19.098 And self-propel.
Stuart 00:35:20.766 Yeah. Yeah. You just--
George 00:35:21.030 Look extremely stupid. [crosstalk]. [laughter]
Stuart 00:35:22.662 It does look a bit silly. Yes. But I find the technical and skills challenge of it difficult, yet achievable, and therefore, invokes a trivial passion.
George 00:35:36.054 Love it. Got a question, Stu?
Stuart 00:35:38.259 No. I didn't prepare any.
Jess 00:35:40.850 That's okay because we have a few more.
Stuart 00:35:42.790 Go for it, please.
Jess 00:35:43.212 Do you ever get bored?
Stuart 00:35:44.422 Yes. I bore easily. Yeah.
George 00:35:47.404 Oh. No.
Jess 00:35:48.174 I'm not surprised by that, Stu.
Stuart 00:35:49.940 Yeah. I do bore easily.
George 00:35:52.129 I don't. I don't get bored.
Stuart 00:35:53.548 Always want a new challenge or a new thing to work on or something else to tick off. Yeah.
Jess 00:36:02.021 Yeah. I don't get bored. I feel like I've always got--
George 00:36:04.828 Ever?
Jess 00:36:05.882 No. I've always got something on or something to distract me from, well, I guess, yeah, boredom.
George 00:36:14.347 What about in a synthetic environment? If you were put on a beach with nothing and you just had to sit there all day?
Stuart 00:36:21.594 Yeah. Oh, I can't sit on a beach. Nah, I can't sit on a beach for a day. Nah. Never.
George 00:36:26.237 Can't vibe it?
Stuart 00:36:26.784 Nah. I'll go windsurfing, surfing, sailing--
George 00:36:29.609 Foiling.
Stuart 00:36:30.009 Foiling. I struggle to read a-- I struggle to even read a book these days. I'd like to be better at that.
George 00:36:36.591 Yeah. Books are great.
Jess 00:36:37.697 That's a habit. That's like a muscle. A reading muscle you have to--
George 00:36:42.365 I used to be awesome at reading books, but I've just stopped doing it. Yeah.
Stuart 00:36:45.061 I reckon--
Jess 00:36:45.182 You've got to get back on the horse. It's a 10-minute everyday kind of thing and then you'll--
George 00:36:48.479 Yeah, you're right.
Jess 00:36:48.747 I mean, obviously you need good material. That helps.
Stuart 00:36:51.694 I reckon phones are the foil of books. Different context of foil. We're so distracted. We're so multi-task. So just to sit down with a paper book in your hand is the antithesis of what the human form has grown into.
George 00:37:09.407 Don't mind it. Oh, shall I go?
Stuart 00:37:12.234 Yes. Go.
Jess 00:37:12.653 Yeah. Yeah. Go.
George 00:37:13.713 Yeah. Okay. Apart from people on this call, who's your favourite employee?
Stuart 00:37:16.613 Oh, you can't ask that.
George 00:37:17.802 Of course, I can.
Stuart 00:37:18.752 Oh, I don't know. There's so many to love.
George 00:37:20.831 Is it Dom? It's Dom, isn't it?
Stuart 00:37:22.592 Oh, there's so many people to love. And that goes to what we-- there is a lot of love in our company, and I really--
George 00:37:28.669 That's such a dodge. [laughter]
Stuart 00:37:29.898 No, no, no. I can't name one. Honestly. Andis, Doms, Ians, Johns. The love between John and I is deep and long. But it's like any marriage, you really got to work at it. [laughter]
George 00:37:41.095 That's a great sound-bite. Thank you.
Jess 00:37:42.699 That is a good sound-bite. I think we should wrap-up because I really like this next question. George, do you have anything to add before we ask our final question?
George 00:37:52.783 No. I mean, I've got a ton of questions, but they're all pretty stupid.
Jess 00:37:55.998 All right. Are we ready? And if we had one of those soundboards, I would press the drum roll button. But I think this is--
George 00:38:01.907 Okay. We can add that in later.
Jess 00:38:02.926 This is a classic-- this is a classic George question.
George 00:38:04.512 [DS?].
Jess 00:38:05.816 [inaudible]. [laughter]
George 00:38:05.653 Yeah. Can you put a mark in here, please? [DS?] for the drum roll.
Jess 00:38:08.639 Need some drums. But this is a classic George question right here. Would you rather have a magic sword or a magic shield? And why? George can provide any clarifying answers.
George 00:38:21.883 Clarifying question. Yep.
Stuart 00:38:23.570 Well, I translate that into defence or attack. Oh. Today, shield, I think. But my answer would probably change over either the day or the week or the month of the year. I feel like there's so much violence in the world that less swords is probably better. So there you go. Magic shield.
George 00:38:46.524 I think it says more about you than about the world, though, that the only thing you can think of using a sword for is attacking.
Stuart 00:38:51.830 Well, there you go. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe--
Jess 00:38:54.539 What else would you use a sword for? The magic sword, George?
Stuart 00:38:56.745 The magic--
George 00:38:56.862 A magic sword?
Jess 00:38:57.929 What else would you use it for--
George 00:38:58.398 I don't know. I mean--
Jess 00:38:59.248 --other than attack?
George 00:38:59.831 If it's infinitely sharp, splitting atoms or something.
Stuart 00:39:04.480 Atoms? Yeah, I was--
Jess 00:39:05.762 Cutting up some cheese.
Stuart 00:39:06.257 I went straight to cutting people's heads off, so. [laughter]
George 00:39:07.577 Cut cheese? Yeah. [laughter]
Stuart 00:39:11.546 So maybe that is more about me than anticipated, but--
Jess 00:39:16.906 So George, does that mean you're a shield or are you a sword?
George 00:39:21.288 I wouldn't trust myself with the sword, to be honest. I'm pretty sure--
Jess 00:39:24.966 Oh, because you're clumsy, right?
George 00:39:26.406 Yeah. And stupid. Yeah.
Stuart 00:39:29.887 Oh, that's exciting. [crosstalk].
George 00:39:31.449 What the hell is that thing?
Jess 00:39:32.477 Yeah.
George 00:39:32.715 Oop. [laughter]
Stuart 00:39:35.312 Did a press a--?
Jess 00:39:36.290 [crosstalk].
Stuart 00:39:36.603 Did somebody--?
George 00:39:37.114 I don't know. For listeners at home, the podcasting software just took a photo of us all without warning.
Jess 00:39:43.600 Well, we did get the warning, but we weren't pre-warned about the warning.
Stuart 00:39:45.583 Yeah. That was--
Jess 00:39:46.650 How much warning do we need?
George 00:39:46.883 [crosstalk]. Blaming you
Jess 00:39:48.999 That's so funny.
George 00:39:50.119 Do you have an answer for that question, Jess?
Jess 00:39:51.977 Yeah.
George 00:39:53.241 You'd be a sword girl, surely?
Jess 00:39:54.832 No. I'd be a shield girl because I figure my--
George 00:39:59.592 Jesus. Jeez, Louise. [laughter]
Jess 00:40:00.786 --shield-- yeah. My shield would have sharp edges. So although those sharp edges wouldn't be quite magic swordy--
George 00:40:09.177 They wouldn't be magic sword level.
Jess 00:40:11.461 No. But they would, I feel, cut my cheese and do what I needed it to do.
George 00:40:16.625 You seem very, very concerned with cutting cheese.
Jess 00:40:19.235 Yeah. I just can't stop thinking about cheese.
George 00:40:21.957 That's fair.
Stuart 00:40:22.480 There's a famous tweet--you might have to edit this out. There was a famous tweet that went very viral that said, "The thing that most surprised me was the price of cheese and everybody does cocaine."
Jess 00:40:38.011 I just wasn't expecting that to go that way.
George 00:40:41.445 Wait. What?
Jess 00:40:42.142 The delivery was so good.
George 00:40:44.642 That's great. The price of cheese is a little bit out of control, though. I mean, you want to talk about things that are wrong with the world. I mean, you can pay $20 for a kilo of cheese here.
Stuart 00:40:52.906 That's what surprised this person the most about adulthood. It's very funny. And it's still going around today. You Google that and you'll-- careful what you Google on your work computer. But you will.
George 00:41:04.365 Are we being watched? Is there--?
Stuart 00:41:05.913 Well, not--
Jess 00:41:07.127 That's what Stu does all day.
Stuart 00:41:07.896 --that anybody in our organisation could be absolutely be bothered what you look at, but--
George 00:41:12.956 That's good to hear.
Stuart 00:41:12.827 --we don't want excuses to have to do so, right? [music] Thanks for listening to this episode. If you found this discussion interesting, fun, you'll find lots more to help you run a successful accounting firm at Karbon Magazine. There are more than 1,000 free resources there, including guides, articles, templates, webinars, and more. Just head to karbonhq.com/resources. I'd also love it if you could leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to this podcast. Let us know you liked this session. We'll be able to keep bringing you more guests for you to learn from and get inspired by. Thanks for joining, and see you on the next episode of the Accounting Leaders Podcast.