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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
Charlie Horner (00:01.542)
On Monday, a LinkedIn post announced the forthcoming departure of Tim Miller, Executive Director for Policy Development at the UK Gambling Commission. Having led the Commission's policy development for almost a decade, Miller is widely credited with overseeing key projects designed to strengthen the regulator's evidence base and improve the governance of licensed gambling. His tenure included the launch of Gamprotect's Single Customer View Initiative, the introduction of the Gambling Survey for Great Britain,
And the overhaul of the licence conditions and codes of practice. Yet his departure leaves the Gambling Commission's leadership increasingly bareboned at a critical stage in the implementation of the Gambling Act Review white paper, including the rollout of its most politically sensitive reforms, such as financial vulnerability and affordability checks.
Welcome back to iGaming Daily, supported by Optimove, the creator of positionless marketing and the number one player engagement solution for sports betting and iGaming operators. I'm Charlie Horner and today I'm joined by SBC Media's editor at large, Ted Manmuir, and SBC News editor Ted Ormclay. Ted how's things?
Ted M (01:11.384)
Very well, Charlie. Good to be back from my holidays in France and into the of the quagmire of UK politics and the governance of gambling.
Charlie Horner (01:22.74)
Fantastic. Nice good good to hear that you enjoyed your time away. Ted L C, how are you?
Ted Orme-Claye (01:27.528)
Yeah, good, thank you, Charlie. Had a refreshing weekend. Yeah, and it's good to welcome Ted back to get stuck straight into a big UK regulatory topic. So yeah, I'm sure you're thrilled, Ted.
Ted M (01:41.934)
Just the two of us, yes.
Charlie Horner (01:41.948)
Like you never went away.
Ted Orme-Claye (01:43.838)
Hehehehe. Hehehehe.
Charlie Horner (01:45.716)
All right, well first of all then, let's just have your initial reactions really to to the news that Tim Miller i is leaving the gambling commission. Ted OC, wha what was your initial reaction?
Ted Orme-Claye (02:00.148)
I was kind of surprised, yeah, given that Miller's become, you know, this year he's been a very important figurehead for the gambling commission, I think, especially since the departure of Andrew Rhodes as chief executive earlier in the year. I mean, I'm sure we'll get stuck into this more lately, but Miller's become a very, important figure for the British gambling sector in the context of lot of regulatory conversations, particularly...
the one about illegal gambling and the black market about unlicensed companies on social media and the industry's relationship with big tech. Yeah, so, you know, it was a surprise to see him go in, well, not go yet, but announce that he will be leaving in the midst of these conversations. And, you know, he's been at the commission for quite some time. I think he held some roles.
relating to gambling regulation before that. it's a sector he's been in for a bit, has some deep ties too. But as he said on his LinkedIn post, there are times when everyone wants a new challenger of their career, wants a change of pace, change of scenery. yeah, it seems that's what he's wanting to do. And all the best of luck to him.
Ted M (03:17.836)
Yeah, I'd just add I'm very surprised and being reflective I assumed he would be in contention to take the hot seat of CEO of the gambling commission. I you look at an executive who after all has 10 years in policy development and research of gambling, that's going to be hard to replace. And I feel that all eyes now are on who leads the commission.
Charlie Horner (03:17.861)
Absolutely, yeah. So
Ted M (03:41.806)
and it's a commission that appears to have kind of lost its direction and it should worry all UK gambling stakeholders.
Charlie Horner (03:49.234)
Yeah, I I'll echo that actually, Ted. I I'm I was quite surprised to to read this news and I and yeah, I I kind of assumed that Miller would be in the running to to replace Andrew Rhodes as well. but but apparently that is that is not the case. just before we carry on, just mention to listeners that if you want to go back to episode seven hundred and ninety six, Tim Miller actually joined us on iGaming Daily and and spoke about amongst other things that the fight against illegal gambling in the UK.
I and he was very open and candid in that conversation and and perhaps some of that openness and and and sort of candidness perhaps reflects that that his his time at the commission is is coming to to a close. But where where does his departure leave the gambling commission then, Ted 'cause w I said at the top of the show this is a a really important period now for for UK gambling. so how how big of is this for for the Commission?
Ted M (04:20.204)
Yeah.
Ted M (04:45.107)
It is, it's entering a critical kind of age too. And I think in every kind of regulatory episode we've had of the IGD, we keep on mentioning that this is a year of application of generational controls that will change the governance of UK gambling. We we're talking in terms of kind financial vulnerability and affordability checks and also these kind of overriding compliance controls. And look, put simply.
in a period of fracture, in a period of change, you need a strong regulatory body. And also it's overseeing kind of the other stuff happening in the background, such as the levy transfer, who can go, who can speak to regulator, who can show its concerns and how can it be trusted.
I think that instead we're in a position of total confusion. I have not seen the commission in this situation even going back to the fallout of the football index where you even had a sense that there is a continuity in the background that isn't visible at the moment. I don't know how Ted feels about this.
Ted Orme-Claye (05:52.468)
It's not an ideal time for the regulator to be, for there to be questions about his leadership. Absolutely. think Ted's, yeah, he's raised a very valid point there.
We've got obviously the new tax regime coming in, well, I say coming in, has come in. Just this morning we've seen the Social Market Foundation, which is one of the most influential think tanks around gambling policy, certainly one of the most vocal ones, make its case for another round of taxes targeting machine games in retail. You you've still got conversations about advertising. There's the affordability check, financial risk check.
Ted M (06:10.433)
Mm-hmm.
Ted M (06:31.647)
Yeah.
Ted Orme-Claye (06:32.879)
debate as well, you know, and that's not fully been implemented yet by the commission. The financial risk assessments, more stringent side of those was the implementation of those was delayed earlier in the year, which might have been related to the fact that there isn't solid leadership at the regulator, you know, to rubber stamp something to give it the green light.
Yeah, it's a tough time for the Commission to be in the midst of this, to be looking for new serious long-term leadership.
Charlie Horner (07:04.763)
Yeah, that's that's the thing. I think there's plenty of very capable people within the commission and lots lots of talent in the body, but to to not have you know, a a full time CEO and not to have an executive director of policy as as they they won't have soon, y y you get the feeling that there could be a little bit of a lack of direction. W w where where is this body going? Where you know, what how how do we you know continue to to provide
stable oversight of what is a a very turbulent time for the industry. so as we said, Tim Miller's had a a a decade at the gambling commission and you know, w we we don't have enough time to go through all ten years of his career. but I guess the n the natural question is what strategic vision did Miller have for the governance of gambling throughout his his tenure? Ted how what do you think on this one?
Ted M (07:58.766)
To me, having interviewed in various times, he always came across as someone who kind of understood the nuances of regulating a high risk sector such as gambling. And I think from the EOF, his position was always improving the evidence and insights to minimise risk onto the consumer and vulnerable players or customers.
And I think kind of that vision kind of led to the projects such as Gamperatecht, which is kind of data sharing to create kind of a single eye of the gambling customer. And I think the other big project was the Gambling Survey in Great Britain, which expanded the of the remit of gambling prevalence in the UK. And it provided kind of much needed information and insights on player or consumer engagement, choice and values, and also triggers.
His projects overall, and what I liked about them was that they were ambitious. They took on kind of new ground as into how evidence should be presented. And I think that he's a simple servant that always wanted to kind of push gaming and push via evidence towards a better platform as to how the...
a sector such as gambling should be governed. So I think he was a very kind of deep and thoughtful guy about what his policy and his role was onto gambling.
Charlie Horner (09:20.595)
Sure, I think the the main themes that I take away from that really is just a sense of that evidence based approach, that honesty, openness, transparency transparency. I guess that these are all leadership qualities that a a sector like gambling needs. Ted O. C. Why do you think it that's particularly important when it comes to gambling to have that sort of transparency, particularly at a time when, you know, the gambling act review was going on and i and is still being implemented?
Ted Orme-Claye (09:49.564)
mean any effective policy and decision making that affects...
Any business sector really, mean, know, we've said before gambling isn't exactly like a huge UK economic sector, but it is still a significant one in its own way and is very, has a lot of knock on effects on other ones, on sports, on finance, on charities and so on. Any policy decisions around a sector like that need to be underpinned by some really solid research and a good understanding of the industry, the people who work within it, what the major issues are. And I guess most importantly,
Ted M (10:09.1)
Mm.
Ted Orme-Claye (10:26.162)
of all the customers of it and what their behavior patterns are, especially with something like gambling, which...
as we know is, like Ted said, is a riskier sector. It is one that unfortunately can have some negative implications, some societal ones, ones on customers who encounter harm. This is what has obviously led to a lot of conversations in the gambling act review and a desire from people wanting to see further gambling reform. Like Ted said about looking at Miller's overview of the sector, about how he understands
the nuances of it. That's the key thing here, isn't it? If you want to make a good decision, you need to understand the nuances of the sector, you need to truly properly understand it and the people within it, the people it serves. I think Miller definitely had a good understanding of that. That was obviously part of his remit as an executive director of research and policy. If we're just going back to his role and everything, there's going to be some big shoes to fill in that one, think, for whoever they get in.
Charlie Horner (11:32.561)
Ted just before we go to to a break, anything to add there?
Ted M (11:36.235)
Yeah, let me just echo what Ted said and iGaming or gambling is a high risk sector. It has many kind of nuanced elements and in comparison to other high risk sectors, finance, insurance, credit lending, it is kind of playing regulatory catch up to other fields and we've seen that over the past five years. Put simply, kind of strong leadership is needed to create a fairer marketplace and I...
you know, in my concerns, kind of view that the situation of facing the leadership of the UKGC could turn into a tipping point.
Charlie Horner (12:15.729)
Yeah, certainly. Let's let's take a quick break and and we'll go into this a little bit more deeply because the there's potentially a little bit of concern for the industry going forward.
AD BREAK
Charlie Horner (12:36.763)
Welcome back to iGaming Daily. Now we we've we've sort of hinted at the fact that there is a little bit of concern for the industry moving forward because twenty twenty six as we as we keep saying is a is a a year of transition, a a year of implementation. The gambling act review is still being implemented. Operators are still getting used to the new tax environment. And now the gambling commission has no permanent CEO, no permanent chair.
and is now losing its director for policy. Now Ted O C, let's let's play pretend for for a second. Y you're you're a CEO of a big listed UK gambling s firm. I'm surely you're you're a bit frustrated by by the situation.
Ted Orme-Claye (13:27.922)
Yeah, I guess you would be I think there's probably a lot of things that are going to be frustrating them at the moment Yeah, taxes conversations about regulation having to Scrap it out for marketing against Companies had rather not be scrapping it out against if you catch my drift on social media
Yeah, you probably would be, but I think maybe one of the things you're to be frustrated about actually is on that point I've just made about the social media side of things and the regulated industry is making a lot of noise right now about unregulated, unlicensed platforms using social media, kind of having a scatter gun approach to marketing that is whether...
inadvertently or not getting seen by UK customers. Entain have been very vocal about this. Regulated industry has got those concerns. Tim Miller, as we said earlier, was one of the people, was probably the person at the Gammon Commission who talked the most about this, who was very vocal in the need to put pressure on big tech firms like Meta.
I think he talked about that in his conversation with you on the podcast, didn't he Charlie? There was a solid segment in that conversation about that and the fact that he would like to see Meta doing more to cut back on unlicensed platforms on all these dot com brands working with influencers. He said that in his speech there earlier in the year as well. I think with Miller leaving, the industry has, at least for now, lost a good ally in the regulator.
who agrees with them on that one specific point which is quite like I said quite a big argument they're having right now obviously you know the commission will see who they get in they could get someone in who has the exact same opinion but if I was a gaming CEO I'd probably be looking at that right now and thinking oh yeah we might have lost a good one here on that front
Charlie Horner (15:26.803)
Ted I'll bring you in on this one because y you said before the break that tough times requires strong leadership. so what do you make of this sort of uncertainty at the regulator?
Ted M (15:39.34)
I mean, all eyes for me are going to DCM is their next developments and look as a department they are lacking. And I also don't view that the inbound kind of change in premiership to Andy Burnham.
That's not going to help the situation. And again, it's I just I don't necessarily just think that it's about the UKGC, but I think it's about the overall kind of government and the government departments, especially TCMS. And if we're kind of reflective of this, look under the Conservative Party or the Conservative government, you know, I think they had what? Nine DCMS secretaries. But at least they kind of communicated where they were with the gambling review paper.
And there was kind of some continuity in that process. Labour just appears to be numb to it. Really, they don't send that kind of any clear message of where they are with UK gambling. And then it's kind of reflected in the Commons because everyone's got a different opinion on the future direction of UK gambling too.
Charlie Horner (16:44.765)
Well, did this Labour government communicate anything well? Would would be a more appropriate question, I would s suggest it because I think that's one of the big criticisms is that they just haven't communicated anything well, never mind just gambling policy. but Ted, w we spoke about this briefly last week, but I'll just get your your thoughts very quickly. Do do you think Lisa Nandy will stay in that brief? Or or do you do you think that that there'll be more flux at DCMS?
Ted Orme-Claye (16:50.637)
Ha
Ted M (16:56.779)
Mm-hmm.
Charlie Horner (17:13.905)
I w we assume no, th sorry to to Ted Ted we we assume that Andy Burnham w will take the keys to number ten. do do you think that Lisa and Andy will be moved up?
Ted Orme-Claye (17:13.969)
Was that to me? Charlie.
Ted M (17:26.013)
No, think she'll get her a new position, a new role. And I think this is what's happened with DCMS. I think it's become a transition department. And think Lisa Dindinandi does carry a status. And I think they'll probably transfer her to a bigger project, or what Labour perceives to be a bigger project, than culture and media.
Charlie Horner (17:49.81)
Yeah, if if the newspaper reports to be believed, Lisa Andy is very very important to the Burnham project. So yeah, perhaps more flux at DCMS moving forward. just how bad maybe not bad, or maybe we would like to call it bad, but how turbulent of a disruptive of a year has twenty twenty six been so far f for the gambling commission, Ted.
We've documented some of these challenges a lot this year. But i is this is this a loss of faith or trust in in the regulator of gambling, or is this just a a difficult year and something that the industry can move past?
So Ted O see, go ahead.
Ted Orme-Claye (18:37.243)
Okay, sure. mean, guess the one comment I could have there is that, know, the industry's had, it's written out regulatory storms in the past and it can do again, I guess. If we're just talking about the industry itself. The commission, yeah, definitely is undoubtedly in a transitional phase.
obviously regarding leadership with the need to find a permanent successor to Andrew Rhodes. Obviously Sarah Gardner is filling the role on an interim basis, isn't she, which is something she has done before. I think she held the interim role before Rhodes took on the permanent ones. She's a very experienced regulatory executive, regulatory leader in her own right. But yeah, the commissions, I'd say it probably is going through a bit of a tough time, but mainly just because of that.
the sort of lack of concrete leadership at the moment, which is a responsibility that as Ted said earlier, needs to fall on DCMS. But then DCMS is in turn like the rest of the government in the middle of what is basically gonna be a change in leadership as well. So.
Yeah, it's a bit of a political and regulatory mess there, isn't it? But yeah, the industry's dealt with this before and it will do again. It's just not an ideal time for it. We're having to adjust to a new pretty hefty tax regime as well and the other various conversations around it.
Ted M (20:01.481)
Yeah, I I agree, but I think speaking to leadership, that the frustrations are appearing now. And there's just so many kind of directives that just need to be finished and so many kind of unknowns with regards to the application of these controls. Also, I mean, we're reaching kind of, you know, that point of kind of no return. you know, the white paper...
and its measures be implemented or do they take it right back? We really don't know the position of this government and where it stands.
Charlie Horner (20:39.003)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, just on that, Ted, Tim Miller is on on the record as saying that the sector needs to get off the regulatory treadmill. what what what do you think he meant by that? Is that is is it what you were explaining there, that that we just need to implement it, that there needs to be some form of of final finality to this, or w what do you think he meant?
Ted M (21:00.117)
Well, when he said that statement, he was speaking in, I think, February, March at the Beddington Gaming Council Summit. And I just think that he was mentioning that, it's been five years of kind of regulatory overhaul, and this is an industry that just needs to adjust to its new terms and conditions. It needs to find its footing. And there just needs to be no regulatory rupture and let the laws kind of settle in and the controls too.
and I just think that come June, July of this year, know, that has gone into the wind. We don't know as an industry, especially for UK Gambling, in what direction the mast is sailing.
Charlie Horner (21:45.94)
Okay, let's let's bring things towards a close now and just look forward a little bit. what what can we expect to see from the incoming leaders at at the commission? Or what would you advise to to expect from from from any incoming leader? t Ted do you want to take this one first?
Ted M (22:04.65)
I know straight away, I just put them on the clock and I would just if I was leadership now, just say, just give us a straight answer. You know, is. I don't think that this is time for a guru or a guy that's going to just tell you like the things you want to hear.
I think we're reaching that point where it's, and especially with that black market encroachment, the UK Gambling needs to know where it stands.
Charlie Horner (22:36.925)
Set L C the final word.
Ted Orme-Claye (22:40.529)
I really know what more I can say other than what Ted M's just said, yeah, the industry needs to know where it stands, whether or not it will get that is obviously a completely different matter because it's not just something that is dependent on the gambling commission leadership, it's also dependent on what concrete opinion the government has on this topic as well. And like you said, we've not really been communicated with 100%.
to put it generously on what exactly the government does want to see from this.
Charlie Horner (23:15.089)
Yeah, it's uncertain times for the UK gambling sector. Uncertain times for the UK full stop. We'll see how things pan out over the next few weeks and we'll surely analyse what that's gonna mean for our sector. But for now, Ted, Ted, thanks a lot for joining me today and and explaining this one. Thanks to Optimove as always for supporting the show and to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of iGaming Daily and come back tomorrow to keep up to date with all the latest global gambling news.