Henryetta Mass Murders: The Good Mother?: Holly Teannette Lamon McFadden

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Step into the shadows of mystery and controversy on today's riveting episode. Your curiosity will be pushed to its limits as we dissect the dark enigma surrounding one of the most contentious figures in the gruesome saga of the Henrietta Mass murders journey with us into the heart of darkness, were Jesse Lee McFadden, in an alleged act of savage brutality, extinguished the lives of five children and his wife, Holly TenneT McFadden, an unspeakable carnage that culminated in his own chilling, suicide, scattering bodies across the Erie Silence.

The vast 130 acre expanse, they called home as spring blossomed. In May, it unveiled a grim Tableau, Holly. Her three children and two of their friends were found lifeless on their homestead. Catapulting Holly into the public eye as an apparent victim of Jesse's monstrous rampage. Holly, by all accounts, was the idyllic mother.

Her friendly demeanor warmed her parents and her steadfast presence. At Michael and Tiffany's track meets painted the picture of a supportive, loving parent. She shared a love of arts and crafts.

Holly and Riley kindled their creativity together. Holly wasn't just a homemaker, though. She was an entrepreneur with her sister, Heather Pettigrew. They channeled their passion into a local boutique in Henryetta called The Mystique Emporium, selling their metaphysical products, artful crafts, and all natural skincare products.

Holly to the outside world seemed to be the epitome of the good mom, right? As we peel back the veneer of normalcy, a startling narrative emerged that shook the public's perception. Eerie footage from within our home began to flood Oklahoma news channels revealing shocking scenes of drugs and drug paraphernalia, sex toys, chains, and shackles in the bedrooms, locks in the kitchens.

Suddenly, we all stared into the abyss of possible hidden truths behind their closed doors. This jarring revelation begged the haunting question, was Holly truly a good mom? Our relentless quest to unravel the convoluted case of Jesse Lee McFadden unveiled glaring oversights in his early release from incarceration.

Simultaneously, we started a meticulous dissection of Holly's enigmatic relationship with Jesse. What we unearthed painted a chilling picture, starkly contrasting the narrative offered by Holly and her grieving family.  In this web of intrigue, pressing questions began to bubble up. How did Holly, a married woman from Arkansas find herself entangled with a convicted rapist and level three sex offender from McAllister, Oklahoma?

What drove her to invite such a vile entity into her life and worse into her children's lives, who clearly matched McFadden's preferred age bracket. Our quest led us to unbiasedly, scrutinize Holly's role in the dreadful events. Did she bravely battle against Jesse's horrific final act, attempting to shield her children and their friends, or did she have a darker role in the unfolding tragedy?

Unfortunately, those who hold the answers are forever silenced, leaving us a delve into the picture painted by the crime scene, and all of the evidence.  We speculate, we deduce, and we question based on Holly's enigmatic narrative. Was Holly truly the good mom or was she something more sinister? Join us as we delve into these questions and more in today's gripping episode.

So Holly's story starts in 1988. She was born on February 28th. Holly Tonoutte Limon Mayo, a Pisces, to both Michael Anthony Mayo, who was 22 at the time, and Jeanette Louise Pepper, who was 24 in El Paso, Texas.  At this point in time, McFadden would've been about four and a half years old. 

Were they associated with the military in any kind of way back then?

Jeanette's father died in El Paso, Texas, and something tells me that that's probably where he got outta the military. I'm not positive, but he was in the military. Okay, that would be my guess. We actually have a, a photo of one of the houses that they lived in, and so if you guys end up joining us for the live, you'll get to see that.

So in 1988, in that same year, at the time that Holly was born, they were not married. Michael and Jeanette were not married. So they got married on August 2nd of that year. She was 24, a couple years older than Michael. And, um, they married in El Paso. And Holly was about six months at that point in time.

Six, six months old. Michael had been previously married, and so Holly's older brother doesn't have the same mom as Holly. So her older brother has a different mother. What's his name? Timothy. Timothy what? Mayo. Oh, Timothy, mit, Mayo. Yeah. Okay. Holly grew up there in El Paso, Texas, at least as a young child.

There is record of both Michael and Jeanette kind of moving around a lot. So there's a pretty good possibility that Holly also moved around a lot with her brother, and then later her sister was a little bit younger than her in 1996. And the reason that we're gonna bring this up is because this has come up throughout the case.

After everything had come out. But in 1996 on October 11th, Brandi Michelle Baker, who is Michael Mayo's. So Holly's dad's half-sister. She was 14 at the time. Holly would've been about, um, eight years old. This is her paternal aunt, married Jason Philip Baker, who was 22 at the time. So Brandy was 14. This is Holly's aunt and Jason Philip Baker married her at the age of 22.

Holly's paternal grandfather and paternal step-grandmother were required due to her age to authorize the marriage. By signing for it. Jason Philip Baker would later be accused of molesting his daughters and fleeing the country. When he voiced his outrage over Holly's life, following the murders, he had to flee the country.

This is the narrative that, you know, the Mayo family has shared. And this came out when he started going to some of the group pages for the murders that occurred in Henrietta. So there's a number of group pages on Facebook where different people have shared different things about the case and whatnot.

And he started jumping on some of the pages and was talking about his knowledge of Holly, like how he married her aunt, when, you know, when Holly was young, about eight years old. And he talked about what he knew about Holly at that point in time, and then how he saw her later when, um, she had met Riley and Michael's father.

And so he just tried to provide a little bit of kind of backstory, but from the sounds of it, he honestly wasn't really present and honestly probably didn't know that much. But the family obviously got very upset when they saw the things that he was saying because he was more on the, um, side of. There's no way that Holly could have not known.

So he had a different stance than the rest of the family. Yeah. What would you expect from a guy who marries a 14 year old at 22, other than to molest other children? That already is, is a problem. 14 and 22 is a big age difference. It is a big age difference. It's also bothersome to me that you would sign for your 14 year old to get married to a 22 year old.

Like I can't imagine doing that. And that's not even that long ago. That's in the nineties, so I can't even say like it's back in the day. Yeah. And you know, it wasn't just, you know, say that the Mayo family that came forward and said anything about him, but actually his own daughters. There was one of his daughters actually on our page, on our group page on Facebook, had said that her father molested her and she put that story out publicly because she wanted people to know that like, hey, like this guy who's commenting on all of this, especially this particular type of case, he has no room to to be on here saying things.

So she asked that he be removed and a couple other people did too. So he ended up being, we ended up removing him from our page. Gotcha. You know, and I do just wanna say that initially when they were asking for us to remove him, we naturally asked for, you know, hey, like, do you have anything that backs up what you're saying?

Because we don't know that you're not just, you know, throwing some allegations out there. And though they did not provide anything, there's, they couldn't provide us anything where any charges were filed against him. But they did say that he fled the country. He is out of the country. It looks like he has a child in another country.

But we ended up removing him based on some stuff that went back and forth. And then they did provide the fact that he did marry his wife at 14. And so, and that was confirmed. Yeah. And so we made a decision to go ahead and remove him. Got it. So then in 2004, Robert Walter Pepper died on May 25th. This is Holly's maternal grandfather, and he died at the age of 66.

Holly was about 16 years old at that point in time. This is the one that died in El Paso? Yes. He's the one that was in the military. Got it. So then sometime in 2006, the Mayos took William Cody Allen, he goes by Cody, who would've been about 16 at the time. He was actually listed as a runaway across state lines.

Holly was pregnant with their older daughter, Riley. And her first child. His first child as well. I think that that they were about 16, 17 years old. They're pretty ac. They're actually pretty close in age. So they're with within probably a year, a year and a half of each other if that. Actually within a year of each other.

So they were both young? Yeah. She had Riley at the age of 18, so yeah, she was probably about 17 years old. Okay. But he was actually listed as a runaway at the time that Holly was pregnant and the Mayo family took him across state lines. That's according to a family friend. So on April 6th of that same year, so of 2006, Riley, Elizabeth, Allen, and Aries is born to William Cody Allen.

I. Who's 17 and Holly Tente, Limon Mayo, who's 18 in Amarillo, Texas. Holly had been attending a beauty school or cosmetology school as we know it according to her mother, Jeanette Louis Mayo McFadden at the time would've been 22 later that year. The Allen family helped get Holly a low income apartment with Cody so that they had a police to stay with their new baby, and Holly's family ended up moving in with them.

When you say Holly's family, you mean like her mom and her dad and her brothers and sisters? Yeah. Okay. So Timothy is Holly's older brother. I'm not too sure if Timothy Mayo actually lived with them or if he lived with his mom. I'm pretty positive that he lived with his mom. Actually, I don't think that he lived with, with Michael and Jeanette Mayo, and that's because there's record of his mom filing for child support.

So more than likely he was living with his mom. Got it. In California is where the child support was filed at in Sacramento. Got it. So in 2007, Holly is about 19 years old. She was caught with one of Cody's friends when she was supposed to be working late. This was very upsetting to the family and obviously I'm sure to Cody, I think this probably played a role in some of their contention between having Holly's family living with them and then also her being unfaithful.

I'm pretty sure that that played into the tension that kind of erupted between them. So what you're saying is in 2007, Holly, who was 19 at the time and was dating Cody and they had a, a child together, she was found to be out and about with one of Cody's friends. Yes. Is what you're saying. So she was basically cheating on him?

Yes. Okay. And somebody caught them and then that caused some problems? Yeah. In their relationship. Okay. I'm not too sure. When Holly graduated, I did see that she was, at least in the 11th grade, I'm not sure you know, that she graduated high school. I would say that she was pretty intelligent from what I've learned about Holly.

So she could have, could not have either here nor there. But in that same year, in 2007, Holly ended up abruptly leaving Cody following a fight. So they had gotten into an argument and when he turned home after he had kind of cooled off, he left 'cause he was upset. He returned home and the house was empty.

And Holly, who was pregnant at the time, was gone with Riley, their oldest child. And from that date, he actually had not seen the kids and had been kept from the kids until all of this took place. So we don't know what the fight was about. We don't. I mean, we can only, it wasn't about her getting caught with somebody else, was it?

It could have been. I mean, we can speculate that, and I don't really wanna like officially put that out there. We've tried to speak to Cody and his family and you know, Cody obviously is grieving, you know, really bad right now. And one thing he didn't wanna do was he didn't wanna put Holly in a bad light.

And you gotta think about the fact that they were both very young too when, you know, when they had Riley and yeah, when, um, she was pregnant with Michael. But I know that it really bothers him that he didn't get to have a life with his kids. One of the things that he talked about was how there was people doing the wrong things in both of their families.

And that at the time, even at his young age, he. Had the foresight to think that I'm not in a good place in my life, and maybe this is for the best. You know, maybe there's somebody out there who's providing some type of value to my children more so than I can at this point in time. And so I think he kind of believed that.

And of course that's very hard for him now. Um, Riley, uh, Elizabeth Allen's dead and Michael James Mayo's dead. Uh, I mean, I was kinda shut out of their life, so I don't know a whole lot, but what, what I've seen from a distance and what I've learned over the last few days, uh, they had a lot of friends, man.

They, they, they were great kids. Apparently they've never been in trouble. So, I mean, it's like the complete opposite of, of me and most of their family. It's good to like, see the good side of it all. Me and their mom didn't really get along too great. We, we had a big fight one night, and I, I left. And, uh, I came back and everything was gone.

And I figured she went with her dad. I tried to find them for a few months here and never could figure out where they were over the years. They started reaching out to my mom to let my mom in on their lives. But, uh, there were stipulations to keep me outside of their lives, and I don't know why. I assumed she was trying to look out for the kids.

'cause I mean, I wasn't great. I wasn't abusive or nothing like that, but I was stuck in my ways. I'm just now getting my life together. You know, I would've been the last person to be a successful father. I was waiting every day until they were 18, and the chance isn't gonna come now, it kills me. Uh, I, I don't like words, will never described the, the root regret that I had.

I should have fought harder, and I should have been there. I should have tried. I think the, the only way that any of us from the family is going to get through it in the family, the other girls, is to try to fight for justice, not just for them, but to make sure this doesn't happen again. I don't know if I could live with myself if I don't try to fight for it.

I went from being devastated, from receiving the, the first news to being heartbroken after learning the rest. And as curious as I'm, I can't bring myself to say anything or do anything. Uh, as far as hateful, all I know is that there's people that need to pay for this. His family knew he was sick. They knew he shouldn't have been around.

When Holly left Cody, where did she go? There's been some different places that have kind of popped up specifically for Holly during some of those different times, like Arkansas, Oklahoma, maybe even another state at that point in time. Like I said, there's a lot of addresses for Holly and for the Mayos and um, but they ultimately ended up in Arkansas.

And the reason that this is kind of significant is that, you know, there had been some speculation with some of her friends that she had already been talking to Joe, guess So for her to end up in Arkansas, they believed that they were already online communicating before she got to Arkansas. And so of course she gets to Arkansas and her and, and Joe guess end up getting married.

And in fact, um, they were already living together while she was still pregnant and they got married after Cody was born. The Mayo family and Holly would go on to tell others that Cody abandoned his children to include telling Joe guest this. So Joe actually believed this until this tragedy unfolded. So the narrative that they spun was that Cody is the one who abandoned the family, not none that, that Holly picked up and left.

Right. So then in 2008, um, on January 16th, Michael James Mayo, a Capricorn like me, was born to Cody Allen, who was 19 at the time, and Holly Ette Limon Mayo, who was 19. Cody would never meet Michael, and he couldn't ever find out where his children were. He did refuse to place his name on Michael's birth certificate without a paternity test, and Holly refused.

And part of that too, I'm sure has to do with child support. Yeah. So when you go to try to file for child support, of course you have to list who a dad is. And I'm pretty sure that that was part of it. So as we know Michael's last name, unlike Riley's, is Mayo and not Alan. So, right. We've heard some rumors from some of Holly's family actually, that the Allen family, so Cody is trying to do a paternity test to determine whether or not Michael was indeed his.

And I think that really has to do with closure, because especially in knowing that you weren't part of their lives for such a long period of time and really having to deal with that, I think that's just part of something that's needed for closure. She was kind of seeing other people, and I can see how that can be even in an instant like this.

And I know that this has to be just extremely excruciating, you know? On him and on his family having not been able to be a part of their lives like they would've liked to be. It's just another thing that you're having to deal with. Was he even my child, if she was caught cheating on him, is it my child?

Is it Joe's child? Is it somebody else's child? Is it the guy's child who she was caught out with when she was supposed to be at work working late? You know, those are all questions that, you know, when you're grieving and you're, and you're trying to process all of these emotions where I can see where this can be very difficult.

So yeah. So in 2008, later that year on February 20th, so Michael was born on January 16th, and so then just a little over a month later, Joe and Holly get married. They're both 19 at the time. They get married in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and shortly after he joins the military and heads out for training and they ended up staying married for a total of 14 years.

So he was in the military. That's interesting. I didn't know, I didn't know that Joe guess was in the military. What did he do in the military? Do we know anything about his service? No, I don't. And honestly, that's something that Jeanette Mayo shared. So, um, she shared that publicly. I don't know a lot of details about that.

Did they move around a lot together in the military? No. From what I can see, he's only ever lived in, so I don't know if maybe even he, he did the Reserves. He might've even did reserves. Yeah, he might've even did the Reserves or the Guard or the National Guard. Gotcha. 'cause it looks like he really spent most of his time either in Arkansas or Oklahoma.

So, and I don't think there's even a base in Arkansas, honestly. So I don't think so either. I'm pretty sure it had to be the Reserves or, or the National Guard. Gotcha. So then a couple years later, so a couple years after they had been married in 2010 on February 16th, Tiffany doer, guess an Aquarius is born to Joe and Holly.

This would be their youngest child and it would be Holly's second daughter. One of the things that a lot of people have said about Joe, you know, family members of Holly's that we've spoken to and friends of Holly's that we've spoken to, is that Joe guess really was a great dad for the kids. And he really thought of all the kids like his own.

He had even talked about how he thought he was gonna be adopting them up until even after they were divorced. Right. And again, remember he was told that Cody abandoned them. He didn't find out that wasn't true until after all of the kids passed away. So, and I could see why he would feel very connected to, especially Mike, even to Riley, because they were, were so, because they were very little.

Yeah. They were all like babies at the time. So, um, he basically did raise them from babies and they knew no other father. Right. So then in the same year, so a little, a little later in the year, so Tiffany was born in February on May 30th, Jeanette Louise Mayo and Michael Anthony Mayo officially separate and live apart from one another until they're divorced.

So they were actually separated for a while before they actually divorced. Do we know what caused that separation? We do not. And you know, I don't wanna put a lot of things out there about Holly's family. I think it's a little bit unfair during a tragedy like this to really put a lot of their business out there.

But as we talked about earlier, um, in Cody's interview that he had done, he had talked about, and everybody has this guys, like everybody has people in their family who you're not proud of or who do things or who have made mistakes. But we do know that in the state of Arkansas that Michael Mayo has. At least one felony charge.

So I don't know if, you know that could have played a role in, in why they divorced. You just never know, honestly. So it could have been, it could have been personal thing, it could have been, you just never know. So, or they could have just grown apart. Right. Yeah. Could have been something simple. Yeah. But from how it appears anyways, you know, going through this, it seems like they've, they've banded together as parents should when a tragedy like this happens.

So, yeah, I don't see that as really being, what, whatever reason that they separated, it didn't keep them from not coming together for their daughter and their grandchildren. Water under the bridge. Right. Water under the bridge. So in 2013, sometime in 2013, Holly, who would've been about 25, and James L.

Fleming, who was 26, became pen pals. And this occurred according to James Fleming, based on the fact that he, there was another inmate who he was friends with in prison who, whose girlfriend was friends with. Holly. So one thing that's, that's kind of stuck out to me because throughout looking at at Holly and learning about Holly is we really wanted to tell Holly's story very unbiasedly, be very, you know, like we, we wanna be honest, but we also wanna be very unbiased.

And so one of the things that kind of stuck out to me particularly about this is the fact that when we hear Holly's friends talking about what an amazing person Holly is and what an amazing mom she is, you have a friend who's also, who is also wanting to talk to people in prison. So it makes you think the whole birds of a feather.

But hypers lia, which is where, where women commonly, where we talk about women, but where women are attracted to men who are in prison. Um, it can, it's actually can be a sexual thing. It could, you know, biologically women. From the beginning of time, naturally want to be with men who are tough and who can take care of them and who are, who are looked at as kind of those alpha males.

And so I think that's where it originates from, like at the base level. Um, but it is a psychological disorder when you can't keep from when it's more than thought, when you can't keep from doing it. So by having a pen pal and dating somebody who's in prison like that, especially for something that isn't even a, a small crime, even James Fleming, no.

From what we know, James Fleming wasn't in prison for any sex related crime, but he there for burglary, for first degree burglary. So James Fleming, you know, just like Jesse McFadden also in Oklahoma and prison also had the same 85% rule. So he was required based on his charge of first degree burglary to.

Stay in prison for at least 85% of his sentence. Now obviously his sentence wasn't as long as Jesse Lee McFadden's, but it wasn't a simple small crime either, if that makes sense. Holly's Heber Delia could have also originated if her father spent any time in prison. The reason why I say that is because if there was a big part of him being gone, we know he had a felony in Arkansas.

If there was any type of a connection there with her father while he was writing to him, that might've been a bonding opportunity for her where she associated that communication with love. And that might've also contributed to her looking for that same type of connection, feeling from someone also in prison.

You know? 'cause you had that dedicated communication that, that attention to you and your feelings and you know, and that that ability to control that relationship a little bit more. Um, so, so we don't know that that to be the case. But when I look at the fact that her father had a felony, To me it says, well, did that play into why she was reaching out to these guys that were in prison?

Right. That is true. And you know, a lot of times when, when people are writing they're, they're better able to get their feelings out in a more authentic manner. Like when you're arguing, you know, you're arguing and sometimes you forget what you wanna say. You forget your good points. You know, when you have the opportunity to sit down and write or sit down and, and really think about something, your, the way that your emotions come out are a little bit more collected and can be very authentic and very raw.

And so that could very well be, not just that, but when you're raised around a family who, and this happens a lot in areas where you see a lot of people who are getting in trouble. Though it tends to be in a lot of your low income areas, you see where kids are used to seeing loved ones who go to jail or go to prison.

And sometimes that's looked at as street credit, a rite of passage. Right? Or being tough. And so, oh my, my dad went to prison. You know, so that could be, that could be something. Or a lot of times one of the things that they talk about with Helia is that it often can be due to being mistreated when you're younger.

It can be due to not feeling safe and secure, and so wanting that protection. And so that can be part of it as well. Yeah. I do wanna highlight that in 2013, she would've been married to Joe guess for approximately five years before she started having a, a virtual affair. Right. And y you know what's really sad?

It, because somebody can, can probably look at this, some people will probably look at this and say, No big deal. She's writing to a guy in prison. It's a pimp pal. Even if they're telling each other, they love each other, you know, like she's never gonna meet him on the outside world. And so whatever, like not a big deal.

But you can, like we talked about with the letters, you really can, can divulge some very personal information and you really can develop a very deep connection with somebody when, especially somebody who's in prison. And this can be the other thing too, is that they're not exposed to the rest of the world.

Not like, although we've learned they can be to a large degree, but they don't have the ability to like walk out and go to a club or walk out and go meet some people at the library or wherever people go to meet. Goodnight people, not the library, wherever they go to meet goodnight people. But no, I mean, really, you know, they, they don't have the exposure.

And, and both James Fleming and Jesse McFadden were in prisons that were all male prisons. So they weren't in prisons where they would see a lot of females unless they were like correctional officers or something of that nature. So you're being treated like the number one girl, you know, you're gonna be treated like the number one girl.

And they ended up dating, you know, James Fleming talks about that. James Fleming talks about how they were telling each other that they loved each other. And for him, he says that he had the mindset of she wasn't somebody who I was talking to before I came into prison. And so I just thought of her more as like a prison relationship that wasn't really an authentic relationship.

Like, and he talks about how he cares about her. Like he thought Holly was a good person. He thought that she was probably very naive. He felt like she was a good person and he knew a lot about her. He knew a lot about her family. He knew about her kids. I don't know that he knew about her husband. I would even venture to say that he did.

I would venture to say that he knew he could have. Yeah, I don't know that for sure and I haven't heard him in any interviews mentioning that, but Holly to me is a pretty girl. And James Flemming's not a bad looking guy. Cody wasn't a bad looking guy. Joe guess isn't a bad looking guy. I feel like with the way I've heard a lot of the people talk about Holly when they talk about what a good friend she was and how good she was with her kids, that she could have pulled a good guy.

You know, like that's what I think. Like I think that she could have pulled a good guy. Um, I think she did with Joe guess, and, but I think she also needed a certain level of excitement as well because like five years in, she's already starting to venture out emotionally. I. Starting to venture out. So, and sometimes people aren't built for relationships or maybe that's not the right relationship.

I, I don't know. But we, we do know that in five years she was ready to start experimenting with other, you know, other relationships. So. Right. And you know, some of the things I think that people think about when, you know, because James Fleming talks about how he's writing Holly, and so you wonder how is he writing Holly and her husband doesn't know.

And so one thing that I think is very interesting is that Jesse McFadden, when he wrote Kaitlyn Bab, or really any of the other girls that he wrote, something that you'll find that's very much so uncommon with all of them is that he had them get PO boxes. So I wonder if James Fleming had Holly get a PO Box.

So if they were writing and she was picking these letters up from a PO box, because Joe Guest didn't know about this. He didn't know about James, and he didn't know about Jesse. So, so that was 2013. So she's been talking to him for a while, right? They develop a relationship, they're going back and forth.

She visited him. He talked about her coming and visiting him. So while she's married, right? She's going and visiting James Fleming. So in 2014, sometime in the beginning of 2014, McFadden, who's 30 at the time, and James Fleming, who's 27, become cellmates. Now, one thing that I can say about McFadden that we've learned is that, and we've gotten his prison records, is that he made a lot of bed, bed changes.

In one year alone, he made 26 bed changes. Rather, that was him complaining about his roommate. His roommate complaining about him, but this is probably one of his longest cellmates that he had while he was in prison. And something that's strange is that Fleming does talk about how he was scared he had to sleep with one eye open.

He didn't trust him. He was constantly talking about sex and nothing else. He was a very good manipulator. He's always trying to manipulate me in just weird ways. We were cellmates for about 16 months, maybe a little bit longer than that. Weird sexual predator ness just like came out of him. Like everything that we talked about was it always led to like a sexual comment or innuendo.

Yeah. He made such a big impact on my life and in the short amount of time that I knew him that when I got outta prison, I contacted the cops about him. How were y'all cellmates for so long? Yeah. You know, he changed, he changed cells 26 times in one year. How were y'all cellmates for so long? For over a year and never did one of you not get moved out of the cell in that timeframe?

If you were having the issues that you're saying that you're having? Something tells me that I think they, they had actually a pretty decent relationship for a majority of their cell time until something happened, something must have occurred for them to not be friends anymore. And then, and that probably happened around the time that Jesse got transferred out.

Right. And something really interesting is that early on we had, we were trying to talk to James Fleming and we had already spoken with Crystal Strong and Crystal Strong was like, you know, I'm gonna send him a message and I'm gonna tell him, you know, it'd be a good idea for him to talk to you. He reached out to us and he said, yeah, I'm willing, you know, I'm willing to jump on and you know, do a podcast with you guys.

And I had told him, you know, I can send you an outline, I can send you the main questions that we're gonna ask. Obviously we'll ask follow on questions, but the main things that we're gonna ask, I can send you that. And as soon as I sent that to him, he no longer wanted to talk to us. And that was from seeing the questions.

And one of the things that he told me, he was bothered by the fact that I told him that, you know, our biggest goal was that we're trying to get justice for the families and he's currently on probation and he felt like he's under Oklahoma's thumb, under O Doc's thumb. And so he felt like it was a risk to him.

Didn't want to do the interview, but a lot of the questions would've been very telling as far as, and he's been in touch a lot with the Mayos, and that occurred very early on. So in one interview I heard him make the comment that he wanted to talk to the Mayos before he answered a particular question or before he talked about certain things.

And one of those was how Jesse got Holly's information. Now, just something to be aware of is that Jesse always had a phone, and so one of the questions that we were gonna ask James Fleming was, did Jesse go through your stuff and get her address or did he get it from a phone? Because one thing that we know about Jesse, McFadden is that he used everybody that he ever spoke to as a networking opportunity.

There was never one woman, there was never one person. They were all used as networking opportunities. So as soon as he, he hooked one, he hooked whoever was hooked to them. Yeah. So that was one of the things that we had asked. We also wanted to ask what he talked to Jesse about as far as Holly went and how early, you know, into his relationship with Holly.

Did Jesse know about Holly? Because when you're in a cell together and you're writing, or you're doing arts and crafts in your cell, just being in a cell, like you're gonna talk a lot. You're gonna talk and you're gonna talk about everything. And we know this. We know this about Jesse because he talked to Kaitlyn about everything.

Yes, he did. He talked to her about other girls. He talked to her about things that were going on in the prison. He talked to her about things that were going on with his roommate. Mm-hmm. So, you know, for a fact that if, if James Fleming was talking to Holly, that he was also having these same types of conversations with Holly as well, talking about his roommate, what he was in there for and, and all these other things.

I don't think that James Fleming figured out what McFadden was in jail for, and then all of a sudden he didn't like him anymore because McFadden always had the same story. He to always told the same story about, oh, it was a misunderstanding and it was this and that. That was always his story. So he would've known that story from the very beginning.

It wouldn't, he wouldn't have took him six months to figure out why he was in prison. And the other thing too is that, and don't get me wrong, they don't just put sex offenders with just sex offenders, but they do put violent criminals with other violent criminals. So you're not gonna be a violent criminal with somebody who stole some gum from a, from a grocery store.

You're gonna be in prison with somebody who also did what is considered to be in the same, at the same level of offense wise. That's who you're gonna be housed with. So in 2015, on August 21st, Jeanette Luis Mayo, divorces Michael Anthony Mayo, so remember we talked about them splitting up. They had, they had already been split up for a while, separated for a while officially, and so on.

August 21st, 2015 is when she files for divorce and they are divorced. And they were separated for five years. So they were separated for a while. So even though they were, they were legally married, they had been, they had been separated for a while, or at least that's what it says in the, in the paperwork.

And I don't know how you would make it that far back if you were being dishonest. So I would think so later that year, um, towards the end of the year, so between some, sometime between October, mid-October 2015 to like the end of December, McFadden, who would've been 31, his ex cellmate, James Fleming, receives a letter from Holly and another woman stating that McFadden had begun writing her.

You know, James tells the story that Jesse went through, Jesse McFadden went through his things while he wasn't possibly in his cell in order to get Holly's information. And so we don't know if that means that came from a phone or that actually came from written material where he just got, you know, Holly's address and started writing her.

This is in 2015. So McFadden was writing Holly or speaking to Holly on the phone in 2015. So in 2016, on January 8th is the first time that McFadden communicated with Kaitlyn Lindsey Babb for the first time. And the reason that it's important to know that is because when he started speaking with Kaitlyn, so mind you, this is just the following year after he started talking to to Holly.

So he had been talking to Holly for a little while and when he starts talking to Kaitlyn Bab, he tells Kaitlyn Bab that him and Holly had kind of parted ways that they were together for a while. And out of all the people that he talked to her about, 'cause he talked to her about other girls that he had been with.

The girl who he had been married to previously when he was younger, before going to prison, um, Stephanie McFadden. So she knew about all these other girls. She knew about, about a lot of these girls that he had been with, had been seeing who had been visiting him in prison. And specifically with Holly was one of the few people that he spoke a lot about, and not the original Holly, so not the first Holly that was in Indian, Oklahoma.

But this Holly, Holly from Arkansas and from Oklahoma. Um, he spoke about how they had been dating and that they had split up at some point in time. And when we spoke with Kaitlyn, one of the things that she said that kind of stood out is that McFadden had implied that Holly told him she didn't wanna be in a relationship with someone who was incarcerated and that that relationship could be visited at some point when he was no longer incarcerated.

Sum to that effect. Yes, that is true. And you know, and it, and it makes me wonder because I think about friends that I've had, and generally, if you're the kind of friend that is not judgmental and that is honest with your friends, regardless, even if you're not judgmental, like, Hey, do you really wanna be talking to me like you have kids?

Do you really wanna be talking to somebody who's in prison? You know, you're gonna, you're gonna feel comfortable if you have, if that's really a friend, to come to your friend and be like, Hey, I started riding this guy in prison. Maybe it wasn't a good idea. Maybe it's that friend who, who was dating somebody who was already there.

Yeah. You know, um, I don't think I wanna talk to him, you know, like, he's not gonna be out for a while. Like, I really don't wanna be spending my, my time, you know, pining away about this guy who isn't even gonna be outta prison for a while. And hopefully her friend would've had an, an open and honest conversation with her about that, especially being that she had kids.

Yeah. And also I think that, I'm pretty sure that Jesse was probably trying to exhibit some type of control. On Holly that she wasn't about to have, like, I'm not having this level of control, like you're not gonna, 'cause the way that he tried to control Kaitlyn was extreme. Like, I need to know where you're at.

I need to track your phone. Like, I'm pretty sure Holly was like, no, I'm not gonna be involved in that type of a situation and therefore this relationship can't continue to move forward. Like, you know, um, and he was very consistent. So, you know, I believe that he would've been the same way. Yeah. I believe he would've been the same way as well.

And I'm pretty sure that Holly probably put a kibosh to it and was like, no, we're not gonna be together until like, maybe you're outta jail. We can revisit the situation later. And this may might be part of why Collie's family is not familiar with Jesse in 2015 and 2016. She wouldn't have never made it known to her family that she was even having those conversations with Jesse.

This would've been something that would've come out after the fact. Well, and at this point in time, she wouldn't have been living with her family either. Right. So she wasn't in Westville, she was in Arkansas. With her husband. With her husband. So she may not have been having those conversations with her parents.

Absolutely. When Holly's family comes out and goes, well, she didn't start talking to 'em until 2019 or 2020, or whatever the case is. That's probably true to them. To them, yeah. To them. To them. Because they're unaware that there was a, there was a preexisting relationship at some point that they didn't know anything about.

Which they wouldn't, because if they knew about it, Joe probably would know about it as well. And I'm sure he didn't know about it either. Yeah. And so he starts communicating with Kaitlyn in 2016 and that same year, so the, the exact same year that he started communicating with Kaitlyn, he taught Kaitlyn how to use the dark web.

He loads spyware onto Caitlin's phone and. He even tells Kaitlin that a friend of hers who's at work was observed by somebody he sent there and knew the conversation, knew what the kid looked like, all of those things. Now, I don't know if he would've known that from the phone. So if you have spyware on somebody's phone and you have the ability to see through their camera or here through their, um, through their speaker piece, I don't know that he maybe could have gotten that information from there.

And lied to Kaitlyn and told Kaitlyn I sent somebody in there to make her think that he had that type of, um, connection. But we do know later on in Kaitlyn's story that he definitely was sending somebody to her place. So it could be either or. It could be both. Right? Um, then in August 22nd, Holly gets the speeding ticket and this makes me think that McFadden was talking to Kaitlyn and Holly at the same time.

Yeah, I. And you gotta think that you have one girl who checks all your blocks. She's young, you can control her. She's in the age bracket that you like for young kids. But then over here you got this girl who's telling you all the things that you want to hear. She's writing you letters, so you're getting more mail, you're getting more, maybe you're talking to her on the phone, but guess what?

She's not underage so she can come visit you in prison. Yeah, that's true. And if you end up getting to be with her when you get outta prison, she has kids. Yeah. So that opens you up to a whole new networking opportunity. Yeah. But it also tells me too, that there's a possibility that like Kaitlyn, he could have done the same thing with Holly that he did with Kaitlyn as far as, I'm sure Holly knew how to use the dark web.

I'm sure that there was probably spyware eventually on Holly's phone and maybe the kids' phones. There's, that's a very good possibility. McFadden had a history. Of being involved with multiple people at the same time. He did, even from a young age. Right. Even when with the first Holly, he was married to Stephanie dating Holly and then sexually assaulting Crystal Strong.

So it's very, very high probability that when he was talking to Holly, he was also talking to Caitlyn and more than likely talking to some other people as well. Right? Yeah. Very high probability. And we know that looking through his prison records, because he was also getting in trouble for, um, speaking with people who worked at the prison.

Ah, yeah, that's right. So, so yeah, he was never a one girl man or one guy man. Yeah. So in 2018, on April 17th, Holly was about 30 at the time, and Joe Gas also 30, they got a vehicle loan together, and that vehicle loan was opened in Westville, Oklahoma. So she would've been in Westville, Oklahoma in 2018. What really stands out about that is that she's been talking to McFadden since 2015, so for three years already.

She's remained married and of course she's got a child with Joe Guess, and Joe guess has been treating her other kids like his own. From everything that we've learned about him and from even everything that, that the Mayos have said about Joe Gas, he's a good person and he's a good dad. So they had a good dad and maybe that's the reason that she kept him around, even though she was talking to James Fleming for a while and then talking to, to Jesse McFadden for a while.

You know, maybe that's the case, but you know, it's just kind of sad when you think about the fact that you're being cheated on and now this person's also using your credit and getting a loan with you. But she did in 2018, and so then later that year, in July, on July 24th, Holly, who's 30 at the, at the time, appears on McFadden's updated.

Approved visitor's card for the Oklahoma Department of Corrections while incarcerated at Joseph Harp Correctional Center. Now, Joseph Harp Correctional Center is in Lexington, Oklahoma. Now she appears on there and she wasn't the only girl that appeared on there, but she was one of them. So depending on what level you are for your earning credits determines how many visitors you can have listed on your visitor's card at one time.

So the level determines how many people you can have on there. And so on. This particular visitor's card, Polly's listed along with two other females and then of course his grandmother and his mother Polly's listed as number one. She is listed as number one.

So just as we know, these are the three girls who just happen to be old enough to be on his visitor's card. So, which is disturbing 'cause there's three who are old enough to be on his visitor's card, but we know that. There's young girls that he was talking to very consistently, even during the time that he was speaking with Holly as well.

So on November 22nd, Richard Gregory Mayo, Holly would've been 30 at the time, her paternal grandfather dies in Elgin, Oklahoma. I think that's how you say it, Elgin. Mm-hmm. And he was 71 at the time, so this would've been her dad's dad. Then, um, just five days later, um, same age, Holly starts a business. Um, around that time actually it was, it actually, it might have even been in October, but some, sometime during that year, Holly, at the age of 30, started a business called Prickly Pairs.

Utterly unique hygiene with a friend, and they started making skincare products like soap. And so this site is actually still up if you wanted to go check it out on both Facebook and Instagram. And she actually has some really cool stuff on there. So she was making things like. Face masks, lotions, soaps and her soaps were really unique.

They were molded into different shapes. One in particular was a, looks like a nine millimeter handgun, which is awfully eerie to me. But she made cute little baskets like for, for Valentine's one year she had something listed where you could get a Valentine's basket for the lady in your life. And it would have things like face masks and you know, maybe a hair mask in it and maybe some essential oils in these soaps that are shaped in different, you know, things.

And then for guys, she had one that had like these soaps that were shaped like handguns and then it had stuff for like your beard and things like that. And it actually kind of cool. Very creative person. Yeah, it is pretty cool. So then in 2019, on September 12th, Hollywood would've been 31, and Joe Guess also 31, they closed out a vehicle loan in Westville.

So I don't know if they were able to pay something off or if it, I don't know if they didn't finance something for very much. That may not have been that original loan. But regardless, that was in 2019. And then in 2020, sometime during that year, the Websters purchased their home in Oklahoma. Holly, who's 32 at the time, moves to Henrietta, Oklahoma.

So this is before Jesse McFadden even got outta prison. But at this time, the time that she relocated to Oklahoma McFadden would've known. When he's gonna be getting out of prison and actually in September. So there's documentation in September that he actually, so in his paperwork when he's getting ready to process for getting outta prison and they do their little checklist of everything that he's gotta do, he does list his move-in address as LaDonna McFadden's address, which is in McAllister.

However, in September, which would've been right before he was released, he lists the 14,600 Holly Road address in Henrietta. So he was very aware that he was moving into that home in 2020, which he did. Right? So then in 2021, so on March 21st, 2021, Joe guess, and Holly guess officially separate now, this date was given by Holly on the paperwork that was filed as their date of separation.

We don't know that this is their actual date of separation. This could have been based on requirements or it could have just been b based on a date that, you know, she wanted to give to say that they had separated and basically they had, um, taken time to think about whether or not they wanted the divorce between September 7th and September 11th.

Holly, who's 33 at the time, gets pregnant and creates a baby registry for a baby girl on Amazon with the due date of June 2nd, 2022. She has a miscarriage before she delivers. So in September, do we know how far along she was pregnant when she miscarried? I don't know that. I know that they had probably purchased like half of their list at that point in time.

So the thought is that this was a baby that she was about to have with Jesse McFadden? Yes. It's so Jesse's out in October and by September of the following year she's pregnant and getting ready to have a baby. Yes. But they're not married yet? No, they're not married yet. She would've gotten pregnant in September, so she wouldn't have known she was pregnant for at least four to six weeks after that.

So then in December, oh, so she got pregnant in September. Right. So based on her due date, that's the, that's the date of, of conception based on her due date would've been between September 7th and September 11th. I gotcha. Okay. Okay. So she got, she got pregnant in September of 2021. Right. Which would've been almost a year after he was released.

Right. And he would've been living there for almost a year as well. And she uses her maiden name. She uses her maiden name, even though she's married on her registry. She was still married, but she's using her maiden name on her registry. Well, think about that. You probably won't, don't want the McFadden's to find it.

And you don't want the guesses to find it. Yeah. So, but I'm making that assumption. So yes, she's using her maiden name. Yeah. Even though she's married. But, um, This timeframe, this September, 2021 is also when he was talking to the girls at the skating ring. So when he was visiting the skating ring, and this is when Kaitlyn Babb found his TikTok account and reached out to some of the parents and said, Hey, like this is a registered sex offender.

Um, so that's when that all occurred. So during the same timeframe when he's getting Holly pregnant, he's out trying gallivanting Yeah, gallivanting. So then in December, so in, so she would've gotten pregnant in September. She would've known by the time she got to December. So December 21st, um, Joe Gas files for divorce as the plaintiff.

But all paperwork is in Holly's handwriting, eliminating the Oklahoma six month waiting period for the divorce to be finalized. The initial marital settlement agreement assigned, um, and Holly lists her address as the Henrietta address, which we already know that she was there because the kids were already going to school in Henrietta.

So then in January of 2022, Holly purchases a nine millimeter handgun. She's 33 at the time. And I just wanna point out the fact she had already been living on the property for almost two years. So she didn't get it because she's out in the middle of nowhere and is living on this large property. She didn't have a history of owning firearms or messing with firearms.

So she purchases this handgun after she gets pregnant. 'cause we don't believe that she had had her miscarriage at this point in time. She may have, but she purchases this, this handgun. She doesn't have a history of being a gun owner and she doesn't have a history of like preferring to be around guns or preferring to just kind of add out of character, right?

So she purchases this handgun in January of 2022 on March 21st. So just a few months later, Holly signs her marital settlement agreement with Joe guess then in April. Holly gets pregnant again. So between somewhere between April 17th and April 21st, Holly, who's now 34, gets pregnant and this time with twins.

So her miscarriage had happened before February. Right? So from September to about January timeframe. February timeframe, that's when she had her miscarriage from the first pregnancy probably. And then she gets pregnant again in April. And this time it's with twins. Right. And her due date is about January 10th, 2023.

She also has a miscarriage with this pregnancy as well. And this time she lists her name on the registry as Holly Gas and not Holly McFadden. Yeah. And I wonder why that is. I know why it is. Why? Is it because she's not married yet? To the McFadden? To McFadden. And he is living in the home mm-hmm. With her kids.

Yeah. And she's still married. And she's still married. So on May 24th, Joe and Holly's divorce is finalized. This time it appeared that she quite possibly could have been pregnant with boys. Um, just based on, on what's listed on her baby registry. I'm trying to understand who knew she was pregnant before she was married.

Someone knew like, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm assuming somebody in her family Oh, whoever was buying stuff on the list, I'm sure. Yeah. But people, and, and they had to say, well, who's the father? Like, who's the daddy? Who's the daddy? Who's the daddy? And who is this guy that, that you're with? And so I was just curious about that.

Yeah, that is interesting because her family does talk about the fact that they didn't know that she had been married for as long as she was. Yeah. Yeah. They said that they found out around Christmas time of the year that she got married, so, Um, which would've been like half a year after she had been married, but yeah.

Interesting, interesting to know who purchased the things from her list both times. Mm-hmm. You know, between Amazon and Walmart and Yeah. That's all just a little bit interesting. Yeah, we do know that for that second pregnancy, that, um, Tiffany Gas was really excited. She was really excited about the possibility of having, you know, a little baby brothers or sisters.

She was super excited and so I know that it was very sad for their family when, um, when she miscarried, I'm pretty sure that the kids were looking forward to that. They, they seemed to be excited. So, on May 24th, Joe and Holly are officially divorced. They go get a marriage license on May 25th. McFadden registers for the very first time in Okmulgee County as a registered sex offender.

So the day before they actually got married, he registers and he lists the Holly address. Then on May 26th, they're officially married. Then on June 24th, The first sex offender compliance check conducted, and it's conducted by Deputy Smalley from the Okmulgee Sheriff's Office. And he says that he reviewed the credit card bill, but I find it odd that he spelled his name wrong.

So was the credit card bill name wrong? And there was also a typed portion that shows how his name was supposed to be spelled. So that's kind of odd to me because typically you write exactly what you see on a bill or on an ID card, or right above where you hand wrote, where his name is spelled accurately.

This is one of the things that had come in into public light about Officer Smalley Deputy Smalley, because his mom was one of the witnesses on their marriage license, both from the Okmulgee Sheriff's Department. So October 12th, 2022 is about the time that Holly, who's 33 at the time, and her sister Heather, started business called Which way?

Selling medical, meta metaphysical products, soaps, potions, et cetera. Kind of expanding on what she was doing before. But then she also got into things like essential oils and putting together like potions and things like that, and kind of packaging them all together. Um, kind of like she was before with the soaps, but kind of added some things and got more into the medical physical type thing.

And I actually really like I've, I've looked at a lot of her products and they're really nice. They're very nice and I know that if you guys are interested in purchasing any of them, that they're being sold at the Emporium in. Henrietta. So Heather has continued to do this. This was something that they were doing together.

I know that they have a Facebook and an Instagram as well, and there's some really nice things there. And I know that I've heard a lot of people say things about it being like devil stuff or evil stuff, and it's not guys, it's nothing like that. Um, the stuff that they're selling is not anything like that.

So we brought Sage and Soul here with us today because we want to learn about the kind of products and stuff that Holly was selling with her sister, Heather and why. And I've heard a lot of negative things said about things being satanic or evil or things of that nature. I'm doing witchcraft. And so we just wanted to, to bring somebody in who knows about these things and who can kind of explain these things so that people understand and have the truth about that.

So welcome. Thank you. I wish I had go with me, but I don't. So it's just me, Sage today. Mm-hmm. And, um, I definitely wanna thank you guys for allowing me to be on your podcast and explain a little bit about this because there are lots of misconceptions regarding witchcraft, it being evil, black magic people doing curses and just spells for evil intent and bad intent sacrificing and just evil rituals.

And so, and that's what a lot of people see on Hollywood in the scary movies. So it's definitely understandable that a lot of people do have those misconception and when they think about witchcraft, that is what comes to mind. I do wanna say that a lot of those thoughts and feelings when it comes to witchcraft and what it is false, but you know, there may be.

A sense of sense to some people's practices, but a lot of people that I meet that practice witchcraft, they're really about nature. They're really about being mindful, respecting others. I have never personally met somebody who claims to practice witchcraft and used it to do harm. I think a lot of people who practice witchcraft, they are very mindful and aware, and so they know, they really understand the power of your intentions, of your words, of your thoughts.

And because of having that mindfulness and that awareness, they're not quick to curse somebody or speak negatively on somebody. And when they do, they really know the power of their words. So a lot of them will, you know, go back and speak a blessing over that person because. Are aware of how powerful your words are, your thoughts are, your intentions are.

I personally got a chance to look at Holly's website and look at a few of the things that she was selling and just from the look of it, it definitely seems like she had very good intentions with her work. I don't know her as a person or what her intentions were in life, but when it came to her work, a lot of her things were very positive.

She had looked like maybe a soap or serum. It was a find your peace, so she was about, you know, using your intentions to be in a place of peace. She had candles, she had things about self love, and so she was definitely not an equal. Person casting spells or using witchcraft for harm as far as I could see.

So some of the things I know that, you know, when they did the video in the home, one of the things that I know that the media kind of focused in on was some of the books that were sitting on one of her shelves in the house and it was things on, on witchcraft and spells and things of that nature. Um, will you explain kind of why somebody who's doing this kind of work would want to have, would want to research those things?

Absolutely. Well, knowledge is power and I personally have a lot of books as well. A lot of books about witch.

It's so great to learn from other people who have been doing this or who have a lineage who's been doing this, who can share their knowledge. I know personally, I'm all about growth and learning new things and incorporating different practices into my own personal craft. And so I'm sure he wanted to learn more as well.

Anybody like you never stop learning. Right. And I know that a lot of this, that stuff, like in Oklahoma, you know, there's a big Native American community and I know that things like sage and stuff like that, and a lot of that natural medicinal type of things and different practices and prayers are very common in that culture.

And I don't think that that's negative or that it's evil or anything of that nature. So I definitely appreciate you sharing that with us today by looking at her webpage. What could you tell us about who she was as a person? Looking over her Facebook page, her Instagram, honestly, I could tell you that she was a very hard worker.

I don't know if she was doing this all on her own or if she had a, a team or, um, I know I read that her sister helped her, but as far as my knowledge of the situation goes, I think her and her sister, I'm not sure how far or close they lived from each other. So I dunno if she was doing this on her own, but she was gonna farmer's markets every week.

She was packaging up all of her stuff, all of her bottles had labels on it, names on it. So I could tell because I go to farmer's markets and me and my sister work on our products and label everything. I can tell you it's hard work to get all of that done, to do that with kids and still have the motivation to go out and try to work for yourself and create something on your own.

Not an easy task at all. And I have one child, she had three children. To do this kind of work and have that motivation is something that not a lot of people possess. And so I don't really know much of her as a person, but just looking at her website and seeing all of her stuff, all of this costs money.

So just being able to put money to side to invest in your goals a little bit. A lot of people aren't doing that. A lot of people can't save like that. A lot of these people don't have the means to, but she was motivated to and that just shows a lot to me. That's really good. That's a really good assessment.

Yeah, it is. So now we get to 2023. So sometime in 2023 there's documentation that Riley has reported abuse to the school and to no avail. Um, according to our classmates. Now what a lot of what we have seen is that, um, it could have possibly been Westville, Oklahoma. We've heard some people say that possibly Joe guess was involved, and it doesn't seem like that's likely, but we haven't seen anything in writing to indicate one way or the other.

However, um, a lot of people have speculated that it had to do with McFadden. And, um, in January of that same year, so January 29th, there's a nine one one call that's made by an anonymous female at 8:07 PM telling the operator that a registered sex offender is in the home with three children and wanted it documented.

So we have been told by close family members of the Mayos that this call was made by Lynn. So Lynn, that we've seen on the news, aunt Lynn, um, that she was the one that made this call. And so this. Contradicts the whole. We found out on March 26th that McFadden was a registered sex offender. So this lets us know that at least in January, they knew.

The other thing is that we've been told by family members that they knew for at least a year, if not longer, that he was a registered sex offender. And that would make sense honestly, because she had already been pregnant twice by him, she had had three different baby registries already out there, regardless of what name they were under.

And unless she completely blocked her family out of her life, I'm pretty sure that somehow some way they were aware of that. So then in February, so right after the 9 1 1 call, Riley is pulled out of school and. Unofficially, we do not know ri why Riley was pulled out of school. Was it because Riley reported things to the school?

Was it because Riley called Child Protective Services, which is what some of her friends have said about things that were going on in the house? We've been told by family members that, um, Riley's window was knelt shut, that all of the kids' windows were nailed shut. Why would you nail your kids' windows shut?

What if there was an emergency and they couldn't get out of the home? Like what if they needed to get out of those windows? We were told that Riley had gotten in trouble for sexting with a boy. We had been told by family and friends that Riley had been sexting a boy sometime around this same timeframe, and that.

One of Jesse and Holly's punishments for Riley was that she not sleep in her room and was required to sleep in their room. And so if you go look at the pictures in the video of their room and how big their room is with the bed in there, there's nowhere for Riley to sleep. She would've been wedged between the bed and the wall, or she would've had to sleep in the bed with them.

You're talking about a a, a grown, she was a teenager, but she was tall. She was taller than a mom. Tall. Yeah. She was like, what? She was like 5 7, 5 8. I think she was five seven. She was tall. She was a she was not a little kid. So it's not like you're, you're making space on the bed for like a five year, five-year-old.

You're talking about a And not only that, she was 17. So you're talking about a 17 year old sleeping in a bedroom with her mother and her father. That is not normal in any kind of way. She was definitely a, a bigger girl. She weighed more than her mom. She was taller than her mom weighed more and was taller than Jesse McFadden.

So yeah, that would've been pretty awkward. You know, my daughter just turned 18 and I couldn't imagine having my daughter sleep in the bed with me on a regular basis. 'cause she was in trouble. Especially not a small bed. Yeah. It wasn't like a big bed. It was not a lot of, well, it was probably a queen. It was probably a queen-sized bed.

But yeah, you can't fit three, three grown adults on a, on a queen sized bed. You just can't. Well, McFadden wasn't, didn't look like a grown adult, but, but yeah, true, true. So then in February there's, there's some things that have hit the media that James Fleming had contacted the Henrietta Police Department to also.

So, so remember that Lynn calls 9 1 1 about McFadden being in the home. And then in February, James Fleming is contacting the Henrietta Police Department saying, Hey, do you have a registered sex offender list? And then he doesn't hear anything back from them right away. And, um, the very next day he's reaching out to Holly.

And one of the remarks that he makes that is very interesting to me, and I think very telling is that he talks about how when he sends her a message that he makes small talk because he doesn't wanna alert Jesse in case Jesse's monitoring her phone. How did James Fleming know that Jesse McFadden monitored girls' phones?

Who he spoke with? 'cause he did it to Kaitlyn because he, 'cause he did it. He's been doing it the whole time. He was in prison with all the phones that he had. How did James know that it was his mo? 'cause they talked about it and he probably was using the same phone. So then some days later, um, James Fleming gets a message back from the Henrietta Police Department letting him know that the state has a public r s o list.

And of course, when he checks it, he doesn't see McFadden. And so he lets them know like, Hey, like you have a dangerous dude there. Now this is according to Fleming, you know, Hey, you have a dangerous dude there, and I just wanna let you know that he's not popping up. So, so several times these law enforcement agencies in Okmulgee County and in Henrietta have been notified, and they do nothing.

They don't try to update the registered sex offender list. They don't do anything, right? So there's multiple times in this case where there could have been some, some measures put in place that could have prevented this, and were not, and there's multiple parties involved who, who should be held accountable, honestly.

So then on April 26th, someone purchases. A chain and two multi lock packages, they contained eight padlocks. Now what's interesting is that the chain and the padlocks that were found in the home do not match the chain in the pod padlocks that were found on this receipt. So was that receipt placed there intentionally to send the investigation in the wrong direction, or are those locks and chains somewhere else according to the search warrants so far, no.

So where are they? Well, I'm saying somewhere other than that property, right? Yeah, absolutely. Kind of, yeah, kind of, kind of fitting with what we've seen. So then, then from there, guys, I mean, we know, um, the. Kind of the rest of the way that things played out. So on April 29th, which was Saturday, is the last day that we know 100% sure that McFadden Tiffany, her best friend, Ivy Webster and Brittany Brewer were all alive.

And we know that that night that Ivy's mom spoke with Ivy on the phone through Snapchat and those messages have been verified as being valid. So like she wasn't sending an old picture, like those had been validated. And that actually went a little past midnight. So a little past midnight. We know that those individuals were all alive, right?

So then we know that on Sunday, that. Ivy's mom gets a message from Ivy's phone that morning, which she doesn't believe was her basically telling her that they were gonna be out in McAllister and that she'd be home around five or so. So then we know at five o'clock that McFadden, which was out of character for him, calls Ashley Webster to tell her that they're having some phone issues, that they're not back yet.

Kind of that whole get up. Ashley Webster thinks this is odd because typically what happens is they would, you know, have very small talk when, like he'd pick Ivy up or when they would pick Ivy up or you know, whatever. Like, there was never any, like really, there wasn't a whole lot of conversation a lot with him.

And typically, of course, her daughter's old enough, she has her own phone. She's communicating with her own daughter. So this was odd to her. And then sometime during that day, and we believe it's around 3:00 PM LaDonna says that she actually went to the house to take a quilt there that she had made for Holly.

And she says that Holly and the kids were not around at that time. She saw McFadden. That was it. She didn't see anybody else. And I guess that didn't, that wasn't alarming to her. And then of course we know that he makes the call to Ashley Webster at five o'clock and then sometime around six or 7:00 PM he's messaging his mom.

Was this message from him telling his mom that he doesn't wanna go back to prison, he's gonna kill himself. And of course, we all know she didn't do anything at that point in time either. And then of course, Kaitlyn gets a message again. Did, was he the one that messaged Kaitlyn? There was a lot of letters that were spread out that he had been writing Kaitlyn throughout the timeframe where they were not communicating.

And was somebody looking at those letters to be able to write that message on behalf of McFadden? We don't know that. Now the Mayo say that the last time they had heard from Holly and the kids was on April 27th. So on April 27th, 2023 was the last time that the Mayo family says that they heard from Holly and the kids.

And that was the day that they went to an event at the school for the kids. And they attended it. They said everybody looked normal and happy. Nothing seemed out of sorts for them. And then sometime between that time and before May 1st, they received some type of message. I don't know who it was from.

We've asked and they won't confirm that. Um, we don't know from whose phone, but they received a message saying that all that everybody's phones were smashed and in the water if they were all smashed in the water, who sent you the message? But they say that they hadn't heard anything from anybody since the 27th, which is odd because Tiffany was out and about on Saturday and had a phone.

She was also messaging other people on her phone. So that's kind of a, a weird thing in that whole, that whole scenario. But the reason that we bring all of that up is because of this, there's been a lot of questions surrounding whether or not Holly could have had anything to do with what took place. The shooting styles are very different between a lot of the gunshot wounds that were all in the head, but there's very different style.

The police that we are aware of never found the actual crime scene as in where everybody was shot, and we know for sure that just about every single body except maybe two or three were moved for sure. One was definitely moved, not close to the time of death. So were they even killed on the property?

There's been talk that Michael Mayo was found in his tracksuit. He must have been deceased prior to everybody else because he was, he had a track meet that he was supposed to be at, um, I believe on Saturday. He was supposed to have track practice on Friday, neither of which he showed for, but he was not found in his track suit.

Guys, not sure where that came from, but that was not true. We know for sure in looking at all of the autopsies, and we have most of the full autopsies, that Holly was alive, at least past one of the children by a significant number of hours. We also know that Holly does not have any defensive wounds. I don't know who put that out there, but if you review her autopsy and you look at the marks she has, and you look at the description that the medical examiner gives, she does not have defensive wounds.

However, later when you do get to see the other autopsies, You'll realize that she has far less marks than some of the other children, some of the other children who have defensive wounds, who have signs that they were fighting. So this brings us to question whether or not Holly was involved somehow some way, because there's a very high probability that there was more than one person involved, especially with all the movement of the bodies, who was the second person.

At one point in time, the owner of the property, Raymond Pageant Sr. Made a comment about another guy on the property who was that other guy.

So there's a lot of questions out there, but one of the biggest questions is, Was Holly the good mom? We know from other cases, serial killers, women who sex traffick their own children. Just because you're a parent doesn't mean that you're not capable of doing something completely awful. And just because you can be a good person to some doesn't mean that you're a good person to all.

So it's a very unsettling feeling to know that somebody that you've known, somebody that you've cared about, somebody that you called a friend, somebody that you called a family member, could be capable of taking part in something so egregious. But is it possible? We found multiple accounts where Holly has indicated that her name is a different name.

She's put out different screen names that have nothing to do with her name. And don't get me wrong, we make up screen names. 'cause we like different characters, whatever. But there has been a lot that has surfaced about her wanting her identity to be something that it's not, or her doing things that are not open and honest or don't come off as being honest, such as creating baby registries to keep people from seeing the fact that you're pregnant and you're still married, or going out of your way to have a divorce done in another state, even though it's written in your handwriting.

Because otherwise you're gonna have a six month waiting period. Or keeping from your family the fact that you're visiting an inmate in a prison. Do I believe that Holly's family is being honest guys? I don't know. You know? Um, I don't think that their stories align all the time. I think that they're grieving.

I think that they're lashing out because they love their daughter. They're always gonna love their daughter. They're always gonna love that family member of theirs. It is a hard thing to accept when somebody that you care about, whether that's a family member or a friend, could be part of something so horrific as this.

And when we talk about the families who were impacted by this tragedy, like the Brewers and the Websters, the sad thing is that they didn't just lose their kids, they lost their kids' friends, and they knew these kids. They knew these kids. The kids were out there houses all the time. So, This is hard and it's, and it's hard to think about somebody that you came into contact with so often and who smiled in your face and who was creating these nice shirts for their son when he wanted to do football, and they're being supportive and it's the same person who was baking cupcakes and planning their kids' parties out.

You look at that person and you say, how can that person be a part of something? Do we know for sure right now? No, but we know that there's a lot of things that don't align with the fact that she wasn't involved. All of the automation equipment that was found in the home, guys that was not normal. The ledger that apparently was found by the Mayos, it wasn't a ledger guys.

It was a birthday list and it had family members on it, but there had been other things that have been pushed out as well. There are friends that talk about the accounts. Holly and Jesse had together. There were friends of Holly's that talk about the relationship between Holly and Jesse. How can you have been talking to somebody since 2015 who you knew was in prison from 2015 to 2020?

How can you live with somebody from 2020 to 2023 who had a very violent sexual history?

If you could hear some of the conversations that Jesse McFadden recorded because they're out there of his sexual violence, even just on the phone, in prison, it would make you cringe. There is no way. Holly did not know who Jesse McFadden was. We've also been told that he would leave the home sometimes a week, two weeks at a time, spending a lot of money.

What was he doing? What did Holly know? He took his automation equipment with him. He took duffel bags with him. He took a cross bow with him. He returned home with a black eye. What was he doing and how did Holly not know? So it's unsettling. And as a mom, it's hard for me to think that if something were taking place and my children were anywhere around, and even if they weren't around, because I would think that if a predator is trying to hurt me, my kids are next.

You would see a lot of defensive wounds, a lot. So it's, it's hard for me to spin a narrative

that paints a different picture. And right now what we have to go off of, and for those that say, oh, everybody who is a part of this is now dead guys. We haven't determined that everybody who's a part of this is dead. But what we do know is we do know that a crime scene says a lot. Autopsies say a lot.

There's a story there. There's, there's information there. So we have some questions. You know, we have questions that we've tried to get answers to. Why would you, Mayo Family, take a 16 year old across state lines, who's listed as a runaway? Why would your family sign for a 14 year old to marry. A grown adult, why would you keep kids away from their dad?

Why would you assist your child in doing that if that person wasn't harming their kids? Why would friends and family reach out and say, the Mayos were trying to keep Joe guess, and Riley and Michael's dad, Cody away from each other. Why

and why have we not heard anything about getting justice for your grandkids? Why has everything we've heard been about defending Holly who is not here and who cannot help get your grandkids justice right now? But if she was, I would hope that she would be trying to get justice for her kids, even. If she made a mistake or made some mistakes, I would like to think that even now if she could talk, if she could reach out and say anything, it would be to fight and fight until these kids receive justice, because they deserve it and the families deserve it.

Joe Guest deserves it. Cody deserves it. Holly's friends and family deserve it. The Websters deserve it and the brewers deserve it.

So the decision's on you guys as to whether or not you believe Holly's involved at this point or not involved, or if she was complicit or if she just set by and didn't do anything regardless. Five children. Five innocent children lost their lives as a result.

And that's a wrap on today's investigation. Fellow detectives, have you found this episode both enlightening and captivating? Then please subscribe to our podcast show and our Patreon Be a review and hit that like button, share our podcast with others and engage with us on our website and social media platforms.

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Creators & Guests

Host

Crystal Garcia

Host

Jose Medina

What is Body of Crime?

Body of Crime is a true crime podcast for crime lovers. Join hosts, Crystal, Joe, and Alicia as they present cases and dissect each body of crime. Rather your love is to hear true crime stories, research, debate, and / or even attempt to solve some of the world’s most intriguing cases, we have you covered. Get ready to put your detective hats on and take some notes – you never know which mysteries will get messier with each case!

Step into the shadows of mystery and controversy on today's riveting episode. Your curiosity will be pushed to its limits as we dissect the dark enigma surrounding one of the most contentious figures in the gruesome saga of the Henrietta Mass murders journey with us into the heart of darkness, were Jesse Lee McFadden, in an alleged act of savage brutality, extinguished the lives of five children and his wife, Holly TenneT McFadden, an unspeakable carnage that culminated in his own chilling, suicide, scattering bodies across the Erie Silence.

The vast 130 acre expanse, they called home as spring blossomed. In May, it unveiled a grim Tableau, Holly. Her three children and two of their friends were found lifeless on their homestead. Catapulting Holly into the public eye as an apparent victim of Jesse's monstrous rampage. Holly, by all accounts, was the idyllic mother.

Her friendly demeanor warmed her parents and her steadfast presence. At Michael and Tiffany's track meets painted the picture of a supportive, loving parent. Her friendly demeanor warmed their parents and her steadfast presence. At Michael and Tiffany's track meets painted the picture of a supportive, loving parent, the shared love of arts and crafts.

Holly and Riley kindled their creativity together. Holly wasn't just a homemaker, though. She was an entrepreneur with her sister, Heather Petare. They channeled their passion into a local boutique in Henrietta called The Mystique Emporium, selling their metaphysical products, artful crafts, and all natural skincare products.

Holly to the outside world seemed to be the epitome of the good mom, right? As we peel back the veneer of normalcy, a startling narrative emerged that shook the public's perception. Eerie footage from within our home began to flood Oklahoma news channels revealing shocking scenes of drugs and drug paraphernalia, sex toys, chains, and shackles in the bedrooms, locks in the kitchens.

Suddenly, we all stared into the abyss of possible hidden truths behind their closed doors. This jarring revelation begged the haunting question Was Holly truly a good mom? Our relentless quest to unravel the convoluted case of Jesse Lee McFadden unveiled glaring oversights in his early release from incarceration.

Simultaneously, we started a meticulous dissection of Holly's enigmatic relationship with Jesse. Would We On Earth painted a chilling picture? Starkly contrasting the narrative offered by Holly and her grieving family in this web of intrigue, pressing questions began to bubble up. How did Holly, a married woman from Arkansas find herself entangled with a convicted rapist and level three sex offender from McAllister, Oklahoma?

What drove her to invite such a vile entity into her life and worse into her children's lives, who yearly matched McFadden's preferred age bracket. Our quest led us to unbiasedly, scrutinize Holly's role in the dreadful events. Did she bravely battle against Jesse's horrific final act, attempting to shield her children in their friends, or did she have a darker role in the unfolding tragedy?

Unfortunately, those who hold the answers are forever silenced, leaving us a delve into the picture painted by the crime scene, and all of the evidence we speculate, we deduce, and we question based on Holly's enigmatic narrative. Was Holly truly the good mom or was she something more sinister? Join us as we delve into these questions and more in today's gripping episode.

So Holly's story starts in 1988. She was born on February 28th. Holly Ette, Limon Mayo, a Pisces, to both Michael Anthony Mayo, who was 22 at the time, and Jeanette Louise Pepper, who was 24 in El Paso, Texas at this point in time. McFadden would've been about four and a half years old. Were they, um, associated with the military in any kind of way back then.

Jeanette's father died in El Paso, Texas, and something tells me that that's probably where he got outta the military. I'm not positive, but he was in the military. Okay, that would be my guess. We actually have a, a photo of one of the houses that they lived in, and so if you guys end up joining us for the live, you'll get to see that.

So in 1988, in that same year, at the time that Holly was born, they were not married. Michael and Jeanette were not married. So they got married on August 2nd of that year. She was 24, a couple years older than Michael. And, um, they married in El Paso. And Holly was about six months at that point in time.

Six, six months old. Michael had been previously married, and so Holly's older brother doesn't have the same mom as Holly. So her older brother has a different mother. What's his name? Timothy. Timothy what? Mayo. Oh, Timothy, mit, Mayo. Yeah. Okay. Holly grew up there in El Paso, Texas, at least as a young child.

There is record of both Michael and Jeanette kind of moving around a lot. So there's a pretty good possibility that Holly also moved around a lot with her brother, and then later her sister was a little bit younger than her in 1996. And the reason that we're gonna bring this up is because this has come up throughout the case.

After everything had come out. But in 1996 on October 11th, Brandi Michelle Baker, who is Michael Mayo's. So Holly's dad's half-sister. She was 14 at the time. Holly would've been about, um, eight years old. This is her paternal aunt, married Jason Philip Baker, who was 22 at the time. So Brandy was 14. This is Holly's aunt and Jason Philip Baker married her at the age of 22.

Holly's paternal grandfather and paternal step-grandmother were required due to her age to authorize the marriage. By signing for it. Jason Philip Baker would later be accused of molesting his daughters and fleeing the country. When he voiced his outrage over Holly's life, following the murders, he had to flee the country.

This is the narrative that, you know, the Mayo family has shared. And this came out when he started going to some of the group pages for the murders that occurred in Henrietta. So there's a number of group pages on Facebook where different people have shared different things about the case and whatnot.

And he started jumping on some of the pages and was talking about his knowledge of Holly, like how he married her aunt, when, you know, when Holly was young, about eight years old. And he talked about what he knew about Holly at that point in time, and then how he saw her later when, um, she had met Riley and Michael's father.

And so he just tried to provide a little bit of kind of backstory, but from the sounds of it, he honestly wasn't really present and honestly probably didn't know that much. But the family obviously got very upset when they saw the things that he was saying because he was more on the, um, side of. There's no way that Holly could have not known.

So he had a different stance than the rest of the family. Yeah. What would you expect from a guy who marries a 14 year old at 22, other than to molest other children? That already is, is a problem. 14 and 22 is a big age difference. It is a big age difference. It's also bothersome to me that you would sign for your 14 year old to get married to a 22 year old.

Like I can't imagine doing that. And that's not even that long ago. That's in the nineties, so I can't even say like it's back in the day. Yeah. And you know, it wasn't just, you know, say that the Mayo family that came forward and said anything about him, but actually his own daughters. There was one of his daughters actually on our page, on our group page on Facebook, had said that her father molested her and she put that story out publicly because she wanted people to know that like, hey, like this guy who's commenting on all of this, especially this particular type of case, he has no room to to be on here saying things.

So she asked that he be removed and a couple other people did too. So he ended up being, we ended up removing him from our page. Gotcha. You know, and I do just wanna say that initially when they were asking for us to remove him, we naturally asked for, you know, hey, like, do you have anything that backs up what you're saying?

Because we don't know that you're not just, you know, throwing some allegations out there. And though they did not provide anything, there's, they couldn't provide us anything where any charges were filed against him. But they did say that he fled the country. He is out of the country. It looks like he has a child in another country.

But we ended up removing him based on some stuff that went back and forth. And then they did provide the fact that he did marry his wife at 14. And so, and that was confirmed. Yeah. And so we made a decision to go ahead and remove him. Got it. So then in 2004, Robert Walter Pepper died on May 25th. This is Holly's maternal grandfather, and he died at the age of 66.

Holly was about 16 years old at that point in time. This is the one that died in El Paso? Yes. He's the one that was in the military. Got it. So then sometime in 2006, the Mayos took William Cody Allen, he goes by Cody, who would've been about 16 at the time. He was actually listed as a runaway across state lines.

Holly was pregnant with their older daughter, Riley. And her first child. His first child as well. I think that that they were about 16, 17 years old. They're pretty ac. They're actually pretty close in age. So they're with within probably a year, a year and a half of each other if that. Actually within a year of each other.

So they were both young? Yeah. She had Riley at the age of 18, so yeah, she was probably about 17 years old. Okay. But he was actually listed as a runaway at the time that Holly was pregnant and the Mayo family took him across state lines. That's according to a family friend. So on April 6th of that same year, so of 2006, Riley, Elizabeth, Allen, and Aries is born to William Cody Allen.

I. Who's 17 and Holly Tente, Limon Mayo, who's 18 in Amarillo, Texas. Holly had been attending a beauty school or cosmetology school as we know it according to her mother, Jeanette Louis Mayo McFadden at the time would've been 22 later that year. The Allen family helped get Holly a low income apartment with Cody so that they had a police to stay with their new baby, and Holly's family ended up moving in with them.

When you say Holly's family, you mean like her mom and her dad and her brothers and sisters? Yeah. Okay. So Timothy is Holly's older brother. I'm not too sure if Timothy Mayo actually lived with them or if he lived with his mom. I'm pretty positive that he lived with his mom. Actually, I don't think that he lived with, with Michael and Jeanette Mayo, and that's because there's record of his mom filing for child support.

So more than likely he was living with his mom. Got it. In California is where the child support was filed at in Sacramento. Got it. So in 2007, Holly is about 19 years old. She was caught with one of Cody's friends when she was supposed to be working late. This was very upsetting to the family and obviously I'm sure to Cody, I think this probably played a role in some of their contention between having Holly's family living with them and then also her being unfaithful.

I'm pretty sure that that played into the tension that kind of erupted between them. So what you're saying is in 2007, Holly, who was 19 at the time and was dating Cody and they had a, a child together, she was found to be out and about with one of Cody's friends. Yes. Is what you're saying. So she was basically cheating on him?

Yes. Okay. And somebody caught them and then that caused some problems? Yeah. In their relationship. Okay. I'm not too sure. When Holly graduated, I did see that she was, at least in the 11th grade, I'm not sure you know, that she graduated high school. I would say that she was pretty intelligent from what I've learned about Holly.

So she could have, could not have either here nor there. But in that same year, in 2007, Holly ended up abruptly leaving Cody following a fight. So they had gotten into an argument and when he turned home after he had kind of cooled off, he left 'cause he was upset. He returned home and the house was empty.

And Holly, who was pregnant at the time, was gone with Riley, their oldest child. And from that date, he actually had not seen the kids and had been kept from the kids until all of this took place. So we don't know what the fight was about. We don't. I mean, we can only, it wasn't about her getting caught with somebody else, was it?

It could have been. I mean, we can speculate that, and I don't really wanna like officially put that out there. We've tried to speak to Cody and his family and you know, Cody obviously is grieving, you know, really bad right now. And one thing he didn't wanna do was he didn't wanna put Holly in a bad light.

And you gotta think about the fact that they were both very young too when, you know, when they had Riley and yeah, when, um, she was pregnant with Michael. But I know that it really bothers him that he didn't get to have a life with his kids. One of the things that he talked about was how there was people doing the wrong things in both of their families.

And that at the time, even at his young age, he. Had the foresight to think that I'm not in a good place in my life, and maybe this is for the best. You know, maybe there's somebody out there who's providing some type of value to my children more so than I can at this point in time. And so I think he kind of believed that.

And of course that's very hard for him now. Um, Riley, uh, Elizabeth Allen's dead and Michael James Mayo's dead. Uh, I mean, I was kinda shut out of their life, so I don't know a whole lot, but what, what I've seen from a distance and what I've learned over the last few days, uh, they had a lot of friends, man.

They, they, they were great kids. Apparently they've never been in trouble. So, I mean, it's like the complete opposite of, of me and most of their family. It's good to like, see the good side of it all. Me and their mom didn't really get along too great. We, we had a big fight one night, and I, I left. And, uh, I came back and everything was gone.

And I figured she went with her dad. I tried to find them for a few months here and never could figure out where they were over the years. They started reaching out to my mom to let my mom in on their lives. But, uh, there were stipulations to keep me outside of their lives, and I don't know why. I assumed she was trying to look out for the kids.

'cause I mean, I wasn't great. I wasn't abusive or nothing like that, but I was stuck in my ways. I'm just now getting my life together. You know, I would've been the last person to be a successful father. I was waiting every day until they were 18, and the chance isn't gonna come now, it kills me. Uh, I, I don't like words, will never described the, the root regret that I had.

I should have fought harder, and I should have been there. I should have tried. I think the, the only way that any of us from the family is going to get through it in the family, the other girls, is to try to fight for justice, not just for them, but to make sure this doesn't happen again. I don't know if I could live with myself if I don't try to fight for it.

I went from being devastated, from receiving the, the first news to being heartbroken after learning the rest. And as curious as I'm, I can't bring myself to say anything or do anything. Uh, as far as hateful, all I know is that there's people that need to pay for this. His family knew he was sick. They knew he shouldn't have been around.

When Holly left Cody, where did she go? There's been some different places that have kind of popped up specifically for Holly during some of those different times, like Arkansas, Oklahoma, maybe even another state at that point in time. Like I said, there's a lot of addresses for Holly and for the Mayos and um, but they ultimately ended up in Arkansas.

And the reason that this is kind of significant is that, you know, there had been some speculation with some of her friends that she had already been talking to Joe, guess So for her to end up in Arkansas, they believed that they were already online communicating before she got to Arkansas. And so of course she gets to Arkansas and her and, and Joe guess end up getting married.

And in fact, um, they were already living together while she was still pregnant and they got married after Cody was born. The Mayo family and Holly would go on to tell others that Cody abandoned his children to include telling Joe guest this. So Joe actually believed this until this tragedy unfolded. So the narrative that they spun was that Cody is the one who abandoned the family, not none that, that Holly picked up and left.

Right. So then in 2008, um, on January 16th, Michael James Mayo, a Capricorn like me, was born to Cody Allen, who was 19 at the time, and Holly Ette Limon Mayo, who was 19. Cody would never meet Michael, and he couldn't ever find out where his children were. He did refuse to place his name on Michael's birth certificate without a paternity test, and Holly refused.

And part of that too, I'm sure has to do with child support. Yeah. So when you go to try to file for child support, of course you have to list who a dad is. And I'm pretty sure that that was part of it. So as we know Michael's last name, unlike Riley's, is Mayo and not Alan. So, right. We've heard some rumors from some of Holly's family actually, that the Allen family, so Cody is trying to do a paternity test to determine whether or not Michael was indeed his.

And I think that really has to do with closure, because especially in knowing that you weren't part of their lives for such a long period of time and really having to deal with that, I think that's just part of something that's needed for closure. She was kind of seeing other people, and I can see how that can be even in an instant like this.

And I know that this has to be just extremely excruciating, you know? On him and on his family having not been able to be a part of their lives like they would've liked to be. It's just another thing that you're having to deal with. Was he even my child, if she was caught cheating on him, is it my child?

Is it Joe's child? Is it somebody else's child? Is it the guy's child who she was caught out with when she was supposed to be at work working late? You know, those are all questions that, you know, when you're grieving and you're, and you're trying to process all of these emotions where I can see where this can be very difficult.

So yeah. So in 2008, later that year on February 20th, so Michael was born on January 16th, and so then just a little over a month later, Joe and Holly get married. They're both 19 at the time. They get married in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and shortly after he joins the military and heads out for training and they ended up staying married for a total of 14 years.

So he was in the military. That's interesting. I didn't know, I didn't know that Joe guess was in the military. What did he do in the military? Do we know anything about his service? No, I don't. And honestly, that's something that Jeanette Mayo shared. So, um, she shared that publicly. I don't know a lot of details about that.

Did they move around a lot together in the military? No. From what I can see, he's only ever lived in, so I don't know if maybe even he, he did the Reserves. He might've even did reserves. Yeah, he might've even did the Reserves or the Guard or the National Guard. Gotcha. 'cause it looks like he really spent most of his time either in Arkansas or Oklahoma.

So, and I don't think there's even a base in Arkansas, honestly. So I don't think so either. I'm pretty sure it had to be the Reserves or, or the National Guard. Gotcha. So then a couple years later, so a couple years after they had been married in 2010 on February 16th, Tiffany doer, guess an Aquarius is born to Joe and Holly.

This would be their youngest child and it would be Holly's second daughter. One of the things that a lot of people have said about Joe, you know, family members of Holly's that we've spoken to and friends of Holly's that we've spoken to, is that Joe guess really was a great dad for the kids. And he really thought of all the kids like his own.

He had even talked about how he thought he was gonna be adopting them up until even after they were divorced. Right. And again, remember he was told that Cody abandoned them. He didn't find out that wasn't true until after all of the kids passed away. So, and I could see why he would feel very connected to, especially Mike, even to Riley, because they were, were so, because they were very little.

Yeah. They were all like babies at the time. So, um, he basically did raise them from babies and they knew no other father. Right. So then in the same year, so a little, a little later in the year, so Tiffany was born in February on May 30th, Jeanette Louise Mayo and Michael Anthony Mayo officially separate and live apart from one another until they're divorced.

So they were actually separated for a while before they actually divorced. Do we know what caused that separation? We do not. And you know, I don't wanna put a lot of things out there about Holly's family. I think it's a little bit unfair during a tragedy like this to really put a lot of their business out there.

But as we talked about earlier, um, in Cody's interview that he had done, he had talked about, and everybody has this guys, like everybody has people in their family who you're not proud of or who do things or who have made mistakes. But we do know that in the state of Arkansas that Michael Mayo has. At least one felony charge.

So I don't know if, you know that could have played a role in, in why they divorced. You just never know, honestly. So it could have been, it could have been personal thing, it could have been, you just never know. So, or they could have just grown apart. Right. Yeah. Could have been something simple. Yeah. But from how it appears anyways, you know, going through this, it seems like they've, they've banded together as parents should when a tragedy like this happens.

So, yeah, I don't see that as really being, what, whatever reason that they separated, it didn't keep them from not coming together for their daughter and their grandchildren. Water under the bridge. Right. Water under the bridge. So in 2013, sometime in 2013, Holly, who would've been about 25, and James L.

Fleming, who was 26, became pen pals. And this occurred according to James Fleming, based on the fact that he, there was another inmate who he was friends with in prison who, whose girlfriend was friends with. Holly. So one thing that's, that's kind of stuck out to me because throughout looking at at Holly and learning about Holly is we really wanted to tell Holly's story very unbiasedly, be very, you know, like we, we wanna be honest, but we also wanna be very unbiased.

And so one of the things that kind of stuck out to me particularly about this is the fact that when we hear Holly's friends talking about what an amazing person Holly is and what an amazing mom she is, you have a friend who's also, who is also wanting to talk to people in prison. So it makes you think the whole birds of a feather.

But hypers lia, which is where, where women commonly, where we talk about women, but where women are attracted to men who are in prison. Um, it can, it's actually can be a sexual thing. It could, you know, biologically women. From the beginning of time, naturally want to be with men who are tough and who can take care of them and who are, who are looked at as kind of those alpha males.

And so I think that's where it originates from, like at the base level. Um, but it is a psychological disorder when you can't keep from when it's more than thought, when you can't keep from doing it. So by having a pen pal and dating somebody who's in prison like that, especially for something that isn't even a, a small crime, even James Fleming, no.

From what we know, James Fleming wasn't in prison for any sex related crime, but he there for burglary, for first degree burglary. So James Fleming, you know, just like Jesse McFadden also in Oklahoma and prison also had the same 85% rule. So he was required based on his charge of first degree burglary to.

Stay in prison for at least 85% of his sentence. Now obviously his sentence wasn't as long as Jesse Lee McFadden's, but it wasn't a simple small crime either, if that makes sense. Holly's Heber Delia could have also originated if her father spent any time in prison. The reason why I say that is because if there was a big part of him being gone, we know he had a felony in Arkansas.

If there was any type of a connection there with her father while he was writing to him, that might've been a bonding opportunity for her where she associated that communication with love. And that might've also contributed to her looking for that same type of connection, feeling from someone also in prison.

You know? 'cause you had that dedicated communication that, that attention to you and your feelings and you know, and that that ability to control that relationship a little bit more. Um, so, so we don't know that that to be the case. But when I look at the fact that her father had a felony, To me it says, well, did that play into why she was reaching out to these guys that were in prison?

Right. That is true. And you know, a lot of times when, when people are writing they're, they're better able to get their feelings out in a more authentic manner. Like when you're arguing, you know, you're arguing and sometimes you forget what you wanna say. You forget your good points. You know, when you have the opportunity to sit down and write or sit down and, and really think about something, your, the way that your emotions come out are a little bit more collected and can be very authentic and very raw.

And so that could very well be, not just that, but when you're raised around a family who, and this happens a lot in areas where you see a lot of people who are getting in trouble. Though it tends to be in a lot of your low income areas, you see where kids are used to seeing loved ones who go to jail or go to prison.

And sometimes that's looked at as street credit, a rite of passage. Right? Or being tough. And so, oh my, my dad went to prison. You know, so that could be, that could be something. Or a lot of times one of the things that they talk about with Helia is that it often can be due to being mistreated when you're younger.

It can be due to not feeling safe and secure, and so wanting that protection. And so that can be part of it as well. Yeah. I do wanna highlight that in 2013, she would've been married to Joe guess for approximately five years before she started having a, a virtual affair. Right. And y you know what's really sad?

It, because somebody can, can probably look at this, some people will probably look at this and say, No big deal. She's writing to a guy in prison. It's a pimp pal. Even if they're telling each other, they love each other, you know, like she's never gonna meet him on the outside world. And so whatever, like not a big deal.

But you can, like we talked about with the letters, you really can, can divulge some very personal information and you really can develop a very deep connection with somebody when, especially somebody who's in prison. And this can be the other thing too, is that they're not exposed to the rest of the world.

Not like, although we've learned they can be to a large degree, but they don't have the ability to like walk out and go to a club or walk out and go meet some people at the library or wherever people go to meet. Goodnight people, not the library, wherever they go to meet goodnight people. But no, I mean, really, you know, they, they don't have the exposure.

And, and both James Fleming and Jesse McFadden were in prisons that were all male prisons. So they weren't in prisons where they would see a lot of females unless they were like correctional officers or something of that nature. So you're being treated like the number one girl, you know, you're gonna be treated like the number one girl.

And they ended up dating, you know, James Fleming talks about that. James Fleming talks about how they were telling each other that they loved each other. And for him, he says that he had the mindset of she wasn't somebody who I was talking to before I came into prison. And so I just thought of her more as like a prison relationship that wasn't really an authentic relationship.

Like, and he talks about how he cares about her. Like he thought Holly was a good person. He thought that she was probably very naive. He felt like she was a good person and he knew a lot about her. He knew a lot about her family. He knew about her kids. I don't know that he knew about her husband. I would even venture to say that he did.

I would venture to say that he knew he could have. Yeah, I don't know that for sure and I haven't heard him in any interviews mentioning that, but Holly to me is a pretty girl. And James Flemming's not a bad looking guy. Cody wasn't a bad looking guy. Joe guess isn't a bad looking guy. I feel like with the way I've heard a lot of the people talk about Holly when they talk about what a good friend she was and how good she was with her kids, that she could have pulled a good guy.

You know, like that's what I think. Like I think that she could have pulled a good guy. Um, I think she did with Joe guess, and, but I think she also needed a certain level of excitement as well because like five years in, she's already starting to venture out emotionally. I. Starting to venture out. So, and sometimes people aren't built for relationships or maybe that's not the right relationship.

I, I don't know. But we, we do know that in five years she was ready to start experimenting with other, you know, other relationships. So. Right. And you know, some of the things I think that people think about when, you know, because James Fleming talks about how he's writing Holly, and so you wonder how is he writing Holly and her husband doesn't know.

And so one thing that I think is very interesting is that Jesse McFadden, when he wrote Kaitlyn Bab, or really any of the other girls that he wrote, something that you'll find that's very much so uncommon with all of them is that he had them get PO boxes. So I wonder if James Fleming had Holly get a PO Box.

So if they were writing and she was picking these letters up from a PO box, because Joe Guest didn't know about this. He didn't know about James, and he didn't know about Jesse. So, so that was 2013. So she's been talking to him for a while, right? They develop a relationship, they're going back and forth.

She visited him. He talked about her coming and visiting him. So while she's married, right? She's going and visiting James Fleming. So in 2014, sometime in the beginning of 2014, McFadden, who's 30 at the time, and James Fleming, who's 27, become cellmates. Now, one thing that I can say about McFadden that we've learned is that, and we've gotten his prison records, is that he made a lot of bed, bed changes.

In one year alone, he made 26 bed changes. Rather, that was him complaining about his roommate. His roommate complaining about him, but this is probably one of his longest cellmates that he had while he was in prison. And something that's strange is that Fleming does talk about how he was scared he had to sleep with one eye open.

He didn't trust him. He was constantly talking about sex and nothing else. He was a very good manipulator. He's always trying to manipulate me in just weird ways. We were cellmates for about 16 months, maybe a little bit longer than that. Weird sexual predator ness just like came out of him. Like everything that we talked about was it always led to like a sexual comment or innuendo.

Yeah. He made such a big impact on my life and in the short amount of time that I knew him that when I got outta prison, I contacted the cops about him. How were y'all cellmates for so long? Yeah. You know, he changed, he changed cells 26 times in one year. How were y'all cellmates for so long? For over a year and never did one of you not get moved out of the cell in that timeframe?

If you were having the issues that you're saying that you're having? Something tells me that I think they, they had actually a pretty decent relationship for a majority of their cell time until something happened, something must have occurred for them to not be friends anymore. And then, and that probably happened around the time that Jesse got transferred out.

Right. And something really interesting is that early on we had, we were trying to talk to James Fleming and we had already spoken with Crystal Strong and Crystal Strong was like, you know, I'm gonna send him a message and I'm gonna tell him, you know, it'd be a good idea for him to talk to you. He reached out to us and he said, yeah, I'm willing, you know, I'm willing to jump on and you know, do a podcast with you guys.

And I had told him, you know, I can send you an outline, I can send you the main questions that we're gonna ask. Obviously we'll ask follow on questions, but the main things that we're gonna ask, I can send you that. And as soon as I sent that to him, he no longer wanted to talk to us. And that was from seeing the questions.

And one of the things that he told me, he was bothered by the fact that I told him that, you know, our biggest goal was that we're trying to get justice for the families and he's currently on probation and he felt like he's under Oklahoma's thumb, under O Doc's thumb. And so he felt like it was a risk to him.

Didn't want to do the interview, but a lot of the questions would've been very telling as far as, and he's been in touch a lot with the Mayos, and that occurred very early on. So in one interview I heard him make the comment that he wanted to talk to the Mayos before he answered a particular question or before he talked about certain things.

And one of those was how Jesse got Holly's information. Now, just something to be aware of is that Jesse always had a phone, and so one of the questions that we were gonna ask James Fleming was, did Jesse go through your stuff and get her address or did he get it from a phone? Because one thing that we know about Jesse, McFadden is that he used everybody that he ever spoke to as a networking opportunity.

There was never one woman, there was never one person. They were all used as networking opportunities. So as soon as he, he hooked one, he hooked whoever was hooked to them. Yeah. So that was one of the things that we had asked. We also wanted to ask what he talked to Jesse about as far as Holly went and how early, you know, into his relationship with Holly.

Did Jesse know about Holly? Because when you're in a cell together and you're writing, or you're doing arts and crafts in your cell, just being in a cell, like you're gonna talk a lot. You're gonna talk and you're gonna talk about everything. And we know this. We know this about Jesse because he talked to Kaitlyn about everything.

Yes, he did. He talked to her about other girls. He talked to her about things that were going on in the prison. He talked to her about things that were going on with his roommate. Mm-hmm. So, you know, for a fact that if, if James Fleming was talking to Holly, that he was also having these same types of conversations with Holly as well, talking about his roommate, what he was in there for and, and all these other things.

I don't think that James Fleming figured out what McFadden was in jail for, and then all of a sudden he didn't like him anymore because McFadden always had the same story. He to always told the same story about, oh, it was a misunderstanding and it was this and that. That was always his story. So he would've known that story from the very beginning.

It wouldn't, he wouldn't have took him six months to figure out why he was in prison. And the other thing too is that, and don't get me wrong, they don't just put sex offenders with just sex offenders, but they do put violent criminals with other violent criminals. So you're not gonna be a violent criminal with somebody who stole some gum from a, from a grocery store.

You're gonna be in prison with somebody who also did what is considered to be in the same, at the same level of offense wise. That's who you're gonna be housed with. So in 2015, on August 21st, Jeanette Luis Mayo, divorces Michael Anthony Mayo, so remember we talked about them splitting up. They had, they had already been split up for a while, separated for a while officially, and so on.

August 21st, 2015 is when she files for divorce and they are divorced. And they were separated for five years. So they were separated for a while. So even though they were, they were legally married, they had been, they had been separated for a while, or at least that's what it says in the, in the paperwork.

And I don't know how you would make it that far back if you were being dishonest. So I would think so later that year, um, towards the end of the year, so between some, sometime between October, mid-October 2015 to like the end of December, McFadden, who would've been 31, his ex cellmate, James Fleming, receives a letter from Holly and another woman stating that McFadden had begun writing her.

You know, James tells the story that Jesse went through, Jesse McFadden went through his things while he wasn't possibly in his cell in order to get Holly's information. And so we don't know if that means that came from a phone or that actually came from written material where he just got, you know, Holly's address and started writing her.

This is in 2015. So McFadden was writing Holly or speaking to Holly on the phone in 2015. So in 2016, on January 8th is the first time that McFadden communicated with Kaitlyn Lindsey Babb for the first time. And the reason that it's important to know that is because when he started speaking with Kaitlyn, so mind you, this is just the following year after he started talking to to Holly.

So he had been talking to Holly for a little while and when he starts talking to Kaitlyn Bab, he tells Kaitlyn Bab that him and Holly had kind of parted ways that they were together for a while. And out of all the people that he talked to her about, 'cause he talked to her about other girls that he had been with.

The girl who he had been married to previously when he was younger, before going to prison, um, Stephanie McFadden. So she knew about all these other girls. She knew about, about a lot of these girls that he had been with, had been seeing who had been visiting him in prison. And specifically with Holly was one of the few people that he spoke a lot about, and not the original Holly, so not the first Holly that was in Indian, Oklahoma.

But this Holly, Holly from Arkansas and from Oklahoma. Um, he spoke about how they had been dating and that they had split up at some point in time. And when we spoke with Kaitlyn, one of the things that she said that kind of stood out is that McFadden had implied that Holly told him she didn't wanna be in a relationship with someone who was incarcerated and that that relationship could be visited at some point when he was no longer incarcerated.

Sum to that effect. Yes, that is true. And you know, and it, and it makes me wonder because I think about friends that I've had, and generally, if you're the kind of friend that is not judgmental and that is honest with your friends, regardless, even if you're not judgmental, like, Hey, do you really wanna be talking to me like you have kids?

Do you really wanna be talking to somebody who's in prison? You know, you're gonna, you're gonna feel comfortable if you have, if that's really a friend, to come to your friend and be like, Hey, I started riding this guy in prison. Maybe it wasn't a good idea. Maybe it's that friend who, who was dating somebody who was already there.

Yeah. You know, um, I don't think I wanna talk to him, you know, like, he's not gonna be out for a while. Like, I really don't wanna be spending my, my time, you know, pining away about this guy who isn't even gonna be outta prison for a while. And hopefully her friend would've had an, an open and honest conversation with her about that, especially being that she had kids.

Yeah. And also I think that, I'm pretty sure that Jesse was probably trying to exhibit some type of control. On Holly that she wasn't about to have, like, I'm not having this level of control, like you're not gonna, 'cause the way that he tried to control Kaitlyn was extreme. Like, I need to know where you're at.

I need to track your phone. Like, I'm pretty sure Holly was like, no, I'm not gonna be involved in that type of a situation and therefore this relationship can't continue to move forward. Like, you know, um, and he was very consistent. So, you know, I believe that he would've been the same way. Yeah. I believe he would've been the same way as well.

And I'm pretty sure that Holly probably put a kibosh to it and was like, no, we're not gonna be together until like, maybe you're outta jail. We can revisit the situation later. And this may might be part of why Collie's family is not familiar with Jesse in 2015 and 2016. She wouldn't have never made it known to her family that she was even having those conversations with Jesse.

This would've been something that would've come out after the fact. Well, and at this point in time, she wouldn't have been living with her family either. Right. So she wasn't in Westville, she was in Arkansas. With her husband. With her husband. So she may not have been having those conversations with her parents.

Absolutely. When Holly's family comes out and goes, well, she didn't start talking to 'em until 2019 or 2020, or whatever the case is. That's probably true to them. To them, yeah. To them. To them. Because they're unaware that there was a, there was a preexisting relationship at some point that they didn't know anything about.

Which they wouldn't, because if they knew about it, Joe probably would know about it as well. And I'm sure he didn't know about it either. Yeah. And so he starts communicating with Kaitlyn in 2016 and that same year, so the, the exact same year that he started communicating with Kaitlyn, he taught Kaitlyn how to use the dark web.

He loads spyware onto Caitlin's phone and. He even tells Kaitlin that a friend of hers who's at work was observed by somebody he sent there and knew the conversation, knew what the kid looked like, all of those things. Now, I don't know if he would've known that from the phone. So if you have spyware on somebody's phone and you have the ability to see through their camera or here through their, um, through their speaker piece, I don't know that he maybe could have gotten that information from there.

And lied to Kaitlyn and told Kaitlyn I sent somebody in there to make her think that he had that type of, um, connection. But we do know later on in Kaitlyn's story that he definitely was sending somebody to her place. So it could be either or. It could be both. Right? Um, then in August 22nd, Holly gets the speeding ticket and this makes me think that McFadden was talking to Kaitlyn and Holly at the same time.

Yeah, I. And you gotta think that you have one girl who checks all your blocks. She's young, you can control her. She's in the age bracket that you like for young kids. But then over here you got this girl who's telling you all the things that you want to hear. She's writing you letters, so you're getting more mail, you're getting more, maybe you're talking to her on the phone, but guess what?

She's not underage so she can come visit you in prison. Yeah, that's true. And if you end up getting to be with her when you get outta prison, she has kids. Yeah. So that opens you up to a whole new networking opportunity. Yeah. But it also tells me too, that there's a possibility that like Kaitlyn, he could have done the same thing with Holly that he did with Kaitlyn as far as, I'm sure Holly knew how to use the dark web.

I'm sure that there was probably spyware eventually on Holly's phone and maybe the kids' phones. There's, that's a very good possibility. McFadden had a history. Of being involved with multiple people at the same time. He did, even from a young age. Right. Even when with the first Holly, he was married to Stephanie dating Holly and then sexually assaulting Crystal Strong.

So it's very, very high probability that when he was talking to Holly, he was also talking to Caitlyn and more than likely talking to some other people as well. Right? Yeah. Very high probability. And we know that looking through his prison records, because he was also getting in trouble for, um, speaking with people who worked at the prison.

Ah, yeah, that's right. So, so yeah, he was never a one girl man or one guy man. Yeah. So in 2018, on April 17th, Holly was about 30 at the time, and Joe Gas also 30, they got a vehicle loan together, and that vehicle loan was opened in Westville, Oklahoma. So she would've been in Westville, Oklahoma in 2018. What really stands out about that is that she's been talking to McFadden since 2015, so for three years already.

She's remained married and of course she's got a child with Joe Guess, and Joe guess has been treating her other kids like his own. From everything that we've learned about him and from even everything that, that the Mayos have said about Joe Gas, he's a good person and he's a good dad. So they had a good dad and maybe that's the reason that she kept him around, even though she was talking to James Fleming for a while and then talking to, to Jesse McFadden for a while.

You know, maybe that's the case, but you know, it's just kind of sad when you think about the fact that you're being cheated on and now this person's also using your credit and getting a loan with you. But she did in 2018, and so then later that year, in July, on July 24th, Holly, who's 30 at the, at the time, appears on McFadden's updated.

Approved visitor's card for the Oklahoma Department of Corrections while incarcerated at Joseph Harp Correctional Center. Now, Joseph Harp Correctional Center is in Lexington, Oklahoma. Now she appears on there and she wasn't the only girl that appeared on there, but she was one of them. So depending on what level you are for your earning credits determines how many visitors you can have listed on your visitor's card at one time.

So the level determines how many people you can have on there. And so on. This particular visitor's card, Polly's listed along with two other females and then of course his grandmother and his mother Polly's listed as number one. She is listed as number one.

So just as we know, these are the three girls who just happen to be old enough to be on his visitor's card. So, which is disturbing 'cause there's three who are old enough to be on his visitor's card, but we know that. There's young girls that he was talking to very consistently, even during the time that he was speaking with Holly as well.

So on November 22nd, Richard Gregory Mayo, Holly would've been 30 at the time, her paternal grandfather dies in Elgin, Oklahoma. I think that's how you say it, Elgin. Mm-hmm. And he was 71 at the time, so this would've been her dad's dad. Then, um, just five days later, um, same age, Holly starts a business. Um, around that time actually it was, it actually, it might have even been in October, but some, sometime during that year, Holly, at the age of 30, started a business called Prickly Pairs.

Utterly unique hygiene with a friend, and they started making skincare products like soap. And so this site is actually still up if you wanted to go check it out on both Facebook and Instagram. And she actually has some really cool stuff on there. So she was making things like. Face masks, lotions, soaps and her soaps were really unique.

They were molded into different shapes. One in particular was a, looks like a nine millimeter handgun, which is awfully eerie to me. But she made cute little baskets like for, for Valentine's one year she had something listed where you could get a Valentine's basket for the lady in your life. And it would have things like face masks and you know, maybe a hair mask in it and maybe some essential oils in these soaps that are shaped in different, you know, things.

And then for guys, she had one that had like these soaps that were shaped like handguns and then it had stuff for like your beard and things like that. And it actually kind of cool. Very creative person. Yeah, it is pretty cool. So then in 2019, on September 12th, Hollywood would've been 31, and Joe Guess also 31, they closed out a vehicle loan in Westville.

So I don't know if they were able to pay something off or if it, I don't know if they didn't finance something for very much. That may not have been that original loan. But regardless, that was in 2019. And then in 2020, sometime during that year, the Websters purchased their home in Oklahoma. Holly, who's 32 at the time, moves to Henrietta, Oklahoma.

So this is before Jesse McFadden even got outta prison. But at this time, the time that she relocated to Oklahoma McFadden would've known. When he's gonna be getting out of prison and actually in September. So there's documentation in September that he actually, so in his paperwork when he's getting ready to process for getting outta prison and they do their little checklist of everything that he's gotta do, he does list his move-in address as LaDonna McFadden's address, which is in McAllister.

However, in September, which would've been right before he was released, he lists the 14,600 Holly Road address in Henrietta. So he was very aware that he was moving into that home in 2020, which he did. Right? So then in 2021, so on March 21st, 2021, Joe guess, and Holly guess officially separate now, this date was given by Holly on the paperwork that was filed as their date of separation.

We don't know that this is their actual date of separation. This could have been based on requirements or it could have just been b based on a date that, you know, she wanted to give to say that they had separated and basically they had, um, taken time to think about whether or not they wanted the divorce between September 7th and September 11th.

Holly, who's 33 at the time, gets pregnant and creates a baby registry for a baby girl on Amazon with the due date of June 2nd, 2022. She has a miscarriage before she delivers. So in September, do we know how far along she was pregnant when she miscarried? I don't know that. I know that they had probably purchased like half of their list at that point in time.

So the thought is that this was a baby that she was about to have with Jesse McFadden? Yes. It's so Jesse's out in October and by September of the following year she's pregnant and getting ready to have a baby. Yes. But they're not married yet? No, they're not married yet. She would've gotten pregnant in September, so she wouldn't have known she was pregnant for at least four to six weeks after that.

So then in December, oh, so she got pregnant in September. Right. So based on her due date, that's the, that's the date of, of conception based on her due date would've been between September 7th and September 11th. I gotcha. Okay. Okay. So she got, she got pregnant in September of 2021. Right. Which would've been almost a year after he was released.

Right. And he would've been living there for almost a year as well. And she uses her maiden name. She uses her maiden name, even though she's married on her registry. She was still married, but she's using her maiden name on her registry. Well, think about that. You probably won't, don't want the McFadden's to find it.

And you don't want the guesses to find it. Yeah. So, but I'm making that assumption. So yes, she's using her maiden name. Yeah. Even though she's married. But, um, This timeframe, this September, 2021 is also when he was talking to the girls at the skating ring. So when he was visiting the skating ring, and this is when Kaitlyn Babb found his TikTok account and reached out to some of the parents and said, Hey, like this is a registered sex offender.

Um, so that's when that all occurred. So during the same timeframe when he's getting Holly pregnant, he's out trying gallivanting Yeah, gallivanting. So then in December, so in, so she would've gotten pregnant in September. She would've known by the time she got to December. So December 21st, um, Joe Gas files for divorce as the plaintiff.

But all paperwork is in Holly's handwriting, eliminating the Oklahoma six month waiting period for the divorce to be finalized. The initial marital settlement agreement assigned, um, and Holly lists her address as the Henrietta address, which we already know that she was there because the kids were already going to school in Henrietta.

So then in January of 2022, Holly purchases a nine millimeter handgun. She's 33 at the time. And I just wanna point out the fact she had already been living on the property for almost two years. So she didn't get it because she's out in the middle of nowhere and is living on this large property. She didn't have a history of owning firearms or messing with firearms.

So she purchases this handgun after she gets pregnant. 'cause we don't believe that she had had her miscarriage at this point in time. She may have, but she purchases this, this handgun. She doesn't have a history of being a gun owner and she doesn't have a history of like preferring to be around guns or preferring to just kind of add out of character, right?

So she purchases this handgun in January of 2022 on March 21st. So just a few months later, Holly signs her marital settlement agreement with Joe guess then in April. Holly gets pregnant again. So between somewhere between April 17th and April 21st, Holly, who's now 34, gets pregnant and this time with twins.

So her miscarriage had happened before February. Right? So from September to about January timeframe. February timeframe, that's when she had her miscarriage from the first pregnancy probably. And then she gets pregnant again in April. And this time it's with twins. Right. And her due date is about January 10th, 2023.

She also has a miscarriage with this pregnancy as well. And this time she lists her name on the registry as Holly Gas and not Holly McFadden. Yeah. And I wonder why that is. I know why it is. Why? Is it because she's not married yet? To the McFadden? To McFadden. And he is living in the home mm-hmm. With her kids.

Yeah. And she's still married. And she's still married. So on May 24th, Joe and Holly's divorce is finalized. This time it appeared that she quite possibly could have been pregnant with boys. Um, just based on, on what's listed on her baby registry. I'm trying to understand who knew she was pregnant before she was married.

Someone knew like, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm assuming somebody in her family Oh, whoever was buying stuff on the list, I'm sure. Yeah. But people, and, and they had to say, well, who's the father? Like, who's the daddy? Who's the daddy? Who's the daddy? And who is this guy that, that you're with? And so I was just curious about that.

Yeah, that is interesting because her family does talk about the fact that they didn't know that she had been married for as long as she was. Yeah. Yeah. They said that they found out around Christmas time of the year that she got married, so, Um, which would've been like half a year after she had been married, but yeah.

Interesting, interesting to know who purchased the things from her list both times. Mm-hmm. You know, between Amazon and Walmart and Yeah. That's all just a little bit interesting. Yeah, we do know that for that second pregnancy, that, um, Tiffany Gas was really excited. She was really excited about the possibility of having, you know, a little baby brothers or sisters.

She was super excited and so I know that it was very sad for their family when, um, when she miscarried, I'm pretty sure that the kids were looking forward to that. They, they seemed to be excited. So, on May 24th, Joe and Holly are officially divorced. They go get a marriage license on May 25th. McFadden registers for the very first time in Okmulgee County as a registered sex offender.

So the day before they actually got married, he registers and he lists the Holly address. Then on May 26th, they're officially married. Then on June 24th, The first sex offender compliance check conducted, and it's conducted by Deputy Smalley from the Okmulgee Sheriff's Office. And he says that he reviewed the credit card bill, but I find it odd that he spelled his name wrong.

So was the credit card bill name wrong? And there was also a typed portion that shows how his name was supposed to be spelled. So that's kind of odd to me because typically you write exactly what you see on a bill or on an ID card, or right above where you hand wrote, where his name is spelled accurately.

This is one of the things that had come in into public light about Officer Smalley Deputy Smalley, because his mom was one of the witnesses on their marriage license, both from the Okmulgee Sheriff's Department. So October 12th, 2022 is about the time that Holly, who's 33 at the time, and her sister Heather, started business called Which way?

Selling medical, meta metaphysical products, soaps, potions, et cetera. Kind of expanding on what she was doing before. But then she also got into things like essential oils and putting together like potions and things like that, and kind of packaging them all together. Um, kind of like she was before with the soaps, but kind of added some things and got more into the medical physical type thing.

And I actually really like I've, I've looked at a lot of her products and they're really nice. They're very nice and I know that if you guys are interested in purchasing any of them, that they're being sold at the Emporium in. Henrietta. So Heather has continued to do this. This was something that they were doing together.

I know that they have a Facebook and an Instagram as well, and there's some really nice things there. And I know that I've heard a lot of people say things about it being like devil stuff or evil stuff, and it's not guys, it's nothing like that. Um, the stuff that they're selling is not anything like that.

So we brought Sage and Soul here with us today because we want to learn about the kind of products and stuff that Holly was selling with her sister, Heather and why. And I've heard a lot of negative things said about things being satanic or evil or things of that nature. I'm doing witchcraft. And so we just wanted to, to bring somebody in who knows about these things and who can kind of explain these things so that people understand and have the truth about that.

So welcome. Thank you. I wish I had go with me, but I don't. So it's just me, Sage today. Mm-hmm. And, um, I definitely wanna thank you guys for allowing me to be on your podcast and explain a little bit about this because there are lots of misconceptions regarding witchcraft, it being evil, black magic people doing curses and just spells for evil intent and bad intent sacrificing and just evil rituals.

And so, and that's what a lot of people see on Hollywood in the scary movies. So it's definitely understandable that a lot of people do have those misconception and when they think about witchcraft, that is what comes to mind. I do wanna say that a lot of those thoughts and feelings when it comes to witchcraft and what it is false, but you know, there may be.

A sense of sense to some people's practices, but a lot of people that I meet that practice witchcraft, they're really about nature. They're really about being mindful, respecting others. I have never personally met somebody who claims to practice witchcraft and used it to do harm. I think a lot of people who practice witchcraft, they are very mindful and aware, and so they know, they really understand the power of your intentions, of your words, of your thoughts.

And because of having that mindfulness and that awareness, they're not quick to curse somebody or speak negatively on somebody. And when they do, they really know the power of their words. So a lot of them will, you know, go back and speak a blessing over that person because. Are aware of how powerful your words are, your thoughts are, your intentions are.

I personally got a chance to look at Holly's website and look at a few of the things that she was selling and just from the look of it, it definitely seems like she had very good intentions with her work. I don't know her as a person or what her intentions were in life, but when it came to her work, a lot of her things were very positive.

She had looked like maybe a soap or serum. It was a find your peace, so she was about, you know, using your intentions to be in a place of peace. She had candles, she had things about self love, and so she was definitely not an equal. Person casting spells or using witchcraft for harm as far as I could see.

So some of the things I know that, you know, when they did the video in the home, one of the things that I know that the media kind of focused in on was some of the books that were sitting on one of her shelves in the house and it was things on, on witchcraft and spells and things of that nature. Um, will you explain kind of why somebody who's doing this kind of work would want to have, would want to research those things?

Absolutely. Well, knowledge is power and I personally have a lot of books as well. A lot of books about witch.

It's so great to learn from other people who have been doing this or who have a lineage who's been doing this, who can share their knowledge. I know personally, I'm all about growth and learning new things and incorporating different practices into my own personal craft. And so I'm sure he wanted to learn more as well.

Anybody like you never stop learning. Right. And I know that a lot of this, that stuff, like in Oklahoma, you know, there's a big Native American community and I know that things like sage and stuff like that, and a lot of that natural medicinal type of things and different practices and prayers are very common in that culture.

And I don't think that that's negative or that it's evil or anything of that nature. So I definitely appreciate you sharing that with us today by looking at her webpage. What could you tell us about who she was as a person? Looking over her Facebook page, her Instagram, honestly, I could tell you that she was a very hard worker.

I don't know if she was doing this all on her own or if she had a, a team or, um, I know I read that her sister helped her, but as far as my knowledge of the situation goes, I think her and her sister, I'm not sure how far or close they lived from each other. So I dunno if she was doing this on her own, but she was gonna farmer's markets every week.

She was packaging up all of her stuff, all of her bottles had labels on it, names on it. So I could tell because I go to farmer's markets and me and my sister work on our products and label everything. I can tell you it's hard work to get all of that done, to do that with kids and still have the motivation to go out and try to work for yourself and create something on your own.

Not an easy task at all. And I have one child, she had three children. To do this kind of work and have that motivation is something that not a lot of people possess. And so I don't really know much of her as a person, but just looking at her website and seeing all of her stuff, all of this costs money.

So just being able to put money to side to invest in your goals a little bit. A lot of people aren't doing that. A lot of people can't save like that. A lot of these people don't have the means to, but she was motivated to and that just shows a lot to me. That's really good. That's a really good assessment.

Yeah, it is. So now we get to 2023. So sometime in 2023 there's documentation that Riley has reported abuse to the school and to no avail. Um, according to our classmates. Now what a lot of what we have seen is that, um, it could have possibly been Westville, Oklahoma. We've heard some people say that possibly Joe guess was involved, and it doesn't seem like that's likely, but we haven't seen anything in writing to indicate one way or the other.

However, um, a lot of people have speculated that it had to do with McFadden. And, um, in January of that same year, so January 29th, there's a nine one one call that's made by an anonymous female at 8:07 PM telling the operator that a registered sex offender is in the home with three children and wanted it documented.

So we have been told by close family members of the Mayos that this call was made by Lynn. So Lynn, that we've seen on the news, aunt Lynn, um, that she was the one that made this call. And so this. Contradicts the whole. We found out on March 26th that McFadden was a registered sex offender. So this lets us know that at least in January, they knew.

The other thing is that we've been told by family members that they knew for at least a year, if not longer, that he was a registered sex offender. And that would make sense honestly, because she had already been pregnant twice by him, she had had three different baby registries already out there, regardless of what name they were under.

And unless she completely blocked her family out of her life, I'm pretty sure that somehow some way they were aware of that. So then in February, so right after the 9 1 1 call, Riley is pulled out of school and. Unofficially, we do not know ri why Riley was pulled out of school. Was it because Riley reported things to the school?

Was it because Riley called Child Protective Services, which is what some of her friends have said about things that were going on in the house? We've been told by family members that, um, Riley's window was knelt shut, that all of the kids' windows were nailed shut. Why would you nail your kids' windows shut?

What if there was an emergency and they couldn't get out of the home? Like what if they needed to get out of those windows? We were told that Riley had gotten in trouble for sexting with a boy. We had been told by family and friends that Riley had been sexting a boy sometime around this same timeframe, and that.

One of Jesse and Holly's punishments for Riley was that she not sleep in her room and was required to sleep in their room. And so if you go look at the pictures in the video of their room and how big their room is with the bed in there, there's nowhere for Riley to sleep. She would've been wedged between the bed and the wall, or she would've had to sleep in the bed with them.

You're talking about a a, a grown, she was a teenager, but she was tall. She was taller than a mom. Tall. Yeah. She was like, what? She was like 5 7, 5 8. I think she was five seven. She was tall. She was a she was not a little kid. So it's not like you're, you're making space on the bed for like a five year, five-year-old.

You're talking about a And not only that, she was 17. So you're talking about a 17 year old sleeping in a bedroom with her mother and her father. That is not normal in any kind of way. She was definitely a, a bigger girl. She weighed more than her mom. She was taller than her mom weighed more and was taller than Jesse McFadden.

So yeah, that would've been pretty awkward. You know, my daughter just turned 18 and I couldn't imagine having my daughter sleep in the bed with me on a regular basis. 'cause she was in trouble. Especially not a small bed. Yeah. It wasn't like a big bed. It was not a lot of, well, it was probably a queen. It was probably a queen-sized bed.

But yeah, you can't fit three, three grown adults on a, on a queen sized bed. You just can't. Well, McFadden wasn't, didn't look like a grown adult, but, but yeah, true, true. So then in February there's, there's some things that have hit the media that James Fleming had contacted the Henrietta Police Department to also.

So, so remember that Lynn calls 9 1 1 about McFadden being in the home. And then in February, James Fleming is contacting the Henrietta Police Department saying, Hey, do you have a registered sex offender list? And then he doesn't hear anything back from them right away. And, um, the very next day he's reaching out to Holly.

And one of the remarks that he makes that is very interesting to me, and I think very telling is that he talks about how when he sends her a message that he makes small talk because he doesn't wanna alert Jesse in case Jesse's monitoring her phone. How did James Fleming know that Jesse McFadden monitored girls' phones?

Who he spoke with? 'cause he did it to Kaitlyn because he, 'cause he did it. He's been doing it the whole time. He was in prison with all the phones that he had. How did James know that it was his mo? 'cause they talked about it and he probably was using the same phone. So then some days later, um, James Fleming gets a message back from the Henrietta Police Department letting him know that the state has a public r s o list.

And of course, when he checks it, he doesn't see McFadden. And so he lets them know like, Hey, like you have a dangerous dude there. Now this is according to Fleming, you know, Hey, you have a dangerous dude there, and I just wanna let you know that he's not popping up. So, so several times these law enforcement agencies in Okmulgee County and in Henrietta have been notified, and they do nothing.

They don't try to update the registered sex offender list. They don't do anything, right? So there's multiple times in this case where there could have been some, some measures put in place that could have prevented this, and were not, and there's multiple parties involved who, who should be held accountable, honestly.

So then on April 26th, someone purchases. A chain and two multi lock packages, they contained eight padlocks. Now what's interesting is that the chain and the padlocks that were found in the home do not match the chain in the pod padlocks that were found on this receipt. So was that receipt placed there intentionally to send the investigation in the wrong direction, or are those locks and chains somewhere else according to the search warrants so far, no.

So where are they? Well, I'm saying somewhere other than that property, right? Yeah, absolutely. Kind of, yeah, kind of, kind of fitting with what we've seen. So then, then from there, guys, I mean, we know, um, the. Kind of the rest of the way that things played out. So on April 29th, which was Saturday, is the last day that we know 100% sure that McFadden Tiffany, her best friend, Ivy Webster and Brittany Brewer were all alive.

And we know that that night that Ivy's mom spoke with Ivy on the phone through Snapchat and those messages have been verified as being valid. So like she wasn't sending an old picture, like those had been validated. And that actually went a little past midnight. So a little past midnight. We know that those individuals were all alive, right?

So then we know that on Sunday, that. Ivy's mom gets a message from Ivy's phone that morning, which she doesn't believe was her basically telling her that they were gonna be out in McAllister and that she'd be home around five or so. So then we know at five o'clock that McFadden, which was out of character for him, calls Ashley Webster to tell her that they're having some phone issues, that they're not back yet.

Kind of that whole get up. Ashley Webster thinks this is odd because typically what happens is they would, you know, have very small talk when, like he'd pick Ivy up or when they would pick Ivy up or you know, whatever. Like, there was never any, like really, there wasn't a whole lot of conversation a lot with him.

And typically, of course, her daughter's old enough, she has her own phone. She's communicating with her own daughter. So this was odd to her. And then sometime during that day, and we believe it's around 3:00 PM LaDonna says that she actually went to the house to take a quilt there that she had made for Holly.

And she says that Holly and the kids were not around at that time. She saw McFadden. That was it. She didn't see anybody else. And I guess that didn't, that wasn't alarming to her. And then of course we know that he makes the call to Ashley Webster at five o'clock and then sometime around six or 7:00 PM he's messaging his mom.

Was this message from him telling his mom that he doesn't wanna go back to prison, he's gonna kill himself. And of course, we all know she didn't do anything at that point in time either. And then of course, Kaitlyn gets a message again. Did, was he the one that messaged Kaitlyn? There was a lot of letters that were spread out that he had been writing Kaitlyn throughout the timeframe where they were not communicating.

And was somebody looking at those letters to be able to write that message on behalf of McFadden? We don't know that. Now the Mayo say that the last time they had heard from Holly and the kids was on April 27th. So on April 27th, 2023 was the last time that the Mayo family says that they heard from Holly and the kids.

And that was the day that they went to an event at the school for the kids. And they attended it. They said everybody looked normal and happy. Nothing seemed out of sorts for them. And then sometime between that time and before May 1st, they received some type of message. I don't know who it was from.

We've asked and they won't confirm that. Um, we don't know from whose phone, but they received a message saying that all that everybody's phones were smashed and in the water if they were all smashed in the water, who sent you the message? But they say that they hadn't heard anything from anybody since the 27th, which is odd because Tiffany was out and about on Saturday and had a phone.

She was also messaging other people on her phone. So that's kind of a, a weird thing in that whole, that whole scenario. But the reason that we bring all of that up is because of this, there's been a lot of questions surrounding whether or not Holly could have had anything to do with what took place. The shooting styles are very different between a lot of the gunshot wounds that were all in the head, but there's very different style.

The police that we are aware of never found the actual crime scene as in where everybody was shot, and we know for sure that just about every single body except maybe two or three were moved for sure. One was definitely moved, not close to the time of death. So were they even killed on the property?

There's been talk that Michael Mayo was found in his tracksuit. He must have been deceased prior to everybody else because he was, he had a track meet that he was supposed to be at, um, I believe on Saturday. He was supposed to have track practice on Friday, neither of which he showed for, but he was not found in his track suit.

Guys, not sure where that came from, but that was not true. We know for sure in looking at all of the autopsies, and we have most of the full autopsies, that Holly was alive, at least past one of the children by a significant number of hours. We also know that Holly does not have any defensive wounds. I don't know who put that out there, but if you review her autopsy and you look at the marks she has, and you look at the description that the medical examiner gives, she does not have defensive wounds.

However, later when you do get to see the other autopsies, You'll realize that she has far less marks than some of the other children, some of the other children who have defensive wounds, who have signs that they were fighting. So this brings us to question whether or not Holly was involved somehow some way, because there's a very high probability that there was more than one person involved, especially with all the movement of the bodies, who was the second person.

At one point in time, the owner of the property, Raymond Pageant Sr. Made a comment about another guy on the property who was that other guy.

So there's a lot of questions out there, but one of the biggest questions is, Was Holly the good mom? We know from other cases, serial killers, women who sex traffick their own children. Just because you're a parent doesn't mean that you're not capable of doing something completely awful. And just because you can be a good person to some doesn't mean that you're a good person to all.

So it's a very unsettling feeling to know that somebody that you've known, somebody that you've cared about, somebody that you called a friend, somebody that you called a family member, could be capable of taking part in something so egregious. But is it possible? We found multiple accounts where Holly has indicated that her name is a different name.

She's put out different screen names that have nothing to do with her name. And don't get me wrong, we make up screen names. 'cause we like different characters, whatever. But there has been a lot that has surfaced about her wanting her identity to be something that it's not, or her doing things that are not open and honest or don't come off as being honest, such as creating baby registries to keep people from seeing the fact that you're pregnant and you're still married, or going out of your way to have a divorce done in another state, even though it's written in your handwriting.

Because otherwise you're gonna have a six month waiting period. Or keeping from your family the fact that you're visiting an inmate in a prison. Do I believe that Holly's family is being honest guys? I don't know. You know? Um, I don't think that their stories align all the time. I think that they're grieving.

I think that they're lashing out because they love their daughter. They're always gonna love their daughter. They're always gonna love that family member of theirs. It is a hard thing to accept when somebody that you care about, whether that's a family member or a friend, could be part of something so horrific as this.

And when we talk about the families who were impacted by this tragedy, like the Brewers and the Websters, the sad thing is that they didn't just lose their kids, they lost their kids' friends, and they knew these kids. They knew these kids. The kids were out there houses all the time. So, This is hard and it's, and it's hard to think about somebody that you came into contact with so often and who smiled in your face and who was creating these nice shirts for their son when he wanted to do football, and they're being supportive and it's the same person who was baking cupcakes and planning their kids' parties out.

You look at that person and you say, how can that person be a part of something? Do we know for sure right now? No, but we know that there's a lot of things that don't align with the fact that she wasn't involved. All of the automation equipment that was found in the home, guys that was not normal. The ledger that apparently was found by the Mayos, it wasn't a ledger guys.

It was a birthday list and it had family members on it, but there had been other things that have been pushed out as well. There are friends that talk about the accounts. Holly and Jesse had together. There were friends of Holly's that talk about the relationship between Holly and Jesse. How can you have been talking to somebody since 2015 who you knew was in prison from 2015 to 2020?

How can you live with somebody from 2020 to 2023 who had a very violent sexual history?

If you could hear some of the conversations that Jesse McFadden recorded because they're out there of his sexual violence, even just on the phone, in prison, it would make you cringe. There is no way. Holly did not know who Jesse McFadden was. We've also been told that he would leave the home sometimes a week, two weeks at a time, spending a lot of money.

What was he doing? What did Holly know? He took his automation equipment with him. He took duffel bags with him. He took a cross bow with him. He returned home with a black eye. What was he doing and how did Holly not know? So it's unsettling. And as a mom, it's hard for me to think that if something were taking place and my children were anywhere around, and even if they weren't around, because I would think that if a predator is trying to hurt me, my kids are next.

You would see a lot of defensive wounds, a lot. So it's, it's hard for me to spin a narrative

that paints a different picture. And right now what we have to go off of, and for those that say, oh, everybody who is a part of this is now dead guys. We haven't determined that everybody who's a part of this is dead. But what we do know is we do know that a crime scene says a lot. Autopsies say a lot.

There's a story there. There's, there's information there. So we have some questions. You know, we have questions that we've tried to get answers to. Why would you, Mayo Family, take a 16 year old across state lines, who's listed as a runaway? Why would your family sign for a 14 year old to marry. A grown adult, why would you keep kids away from their dad?

Why would you assist your child in doing that if that person wasn't harming their kids? Why would friends and family reach out and say, the Mayos were trying to keep Joe guess, and Riley and Michael's dad, Cody away from each other. Why

and why have we not heard anything about getting justice for your grandkids? Why has everything we've heard been about defending Holly who is not here and who cannot help get your grandkids justice right now? But if she was, I would hope that she would be trying to get justice for her kids, even. If she made a mistake or made some mistakes, I would like to think that even now if she could talk, if she could reach out and say anything, it would be to fight and fight until these kids receive justice, because they deserve it and the families deserve it.