Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
tyson (00:00.273)
because I've made that mistake before. I had Zane Robertson on a few years ago now before sort of everything went down on the podcast, maybe three years ago. And it was such an amazing chat. I got to the end of it and I said, hey, thanks so much, went to end the recording and it started the recording. And I was like, oh, you're kidding. I can't believe it. It was one of the most, it was one of those ones where you just felt like you connected while the conversation flowed. There were so many good stories.
Matt Baxter (00:20.353)
aw man
tyson (00:29.837)
And then I've never had a chance to get him back on because he was probably like, yeah, I won't make that mistake again. But no, all right, we're recording, we're good to go. Well, fellas, I'm so excited to have the opportunity to finally sit down with you. I know I spoke to Miles, one of your reps, a couple of months ago now, who sent me out a copy of the book. And I was just saying to Ron before I hit record that I'm about three quarters of the way through it. I'm a fan of NAU for a number of reasons, based on the fact I'm...
Ron Mann (00:34.5)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Matt Baxter (00:35.441)
Yeah.
tyson (00:59.465)
All regular listeners to this podcast knows that I'm good friends with Dave McNeil. He's a regular visitor here. Bert Gerstner also a regular visitor here. He was up until about 12 months ago. We're due for a revisit, but I thought as a way to start the conversation, it's interesting when you look at something so established, something like Northern Arizona University, you forget about the origin story. And what I think I appreciate so much about your book is it actually paints the picture. And I was thinking.
sort of last night as I was flicking through some of the pages is the way or the story that you've painted through the book with the creation, the development of NAU, it's almost as though you're telling the story of a great athlete themselves. Like there's always those early years, the hard years, the foundation years before there's ever been really anything established or recognised about what you're doing. But then amazingly, you fast forward a few years down the track and anyone who looks at
serious universities anywhere in the world for distance running, you're in the top three or four choices. And so I say all that to say, the conversation or the story that you guys present, it's a really interesting way to approach a story. I mean, to tell the origin story, to tell the rising story, just as a way to kickstart the chat run. I thought it might be nice to hear a little bit about what the inspiration behind putting a story like this together was.
Ron Mann (02:26.98)
Well, the original story as it came out was originated, I think, kick-started, if you will, by a podcast that Eric Hines did. And he was interviewed on a podcast and someone asked him, says, how does it feel to have started the program at Northern Arizona University? And Eric very graciously said, well, I can't take credit for that.
started the program at Northern Arizona. And so then I got on Facebook that was put on Facebook and so I got on and I said I can't take credit for it. It was actually my mentor Dr. Leo Heberlach who started the program. And so then Eric said to me, coach, if the book is ever going to be written, you have to take...
hold of it because you're the only one that knows the whole story. So I knew that I couldn't write the book because I'm not a writer. And secondly, I don't have the recent history of the program, as well as someone that has intimate knowledge of the program, uh, through the 2000s and end of 2020. And so I reached out to Eric and I said, do you know anybody that can write really well and has knowledge of it now? And.
Matt's name came up to me and I reached out to Matt and said, what do you think? And I'll let Matt take it from there and tell you how he moved on and took the, the question that I asked of him, would you be willing to write a book with me? And so Matt, why don't you answer the end of that portion of it?
Matt Baxter (04:17.378)
Yeah, so definitely when Ron had reached out with his idea about how this book was going to come together, I think there was a little bit of hesitancy on my end because I, for one, I knew bits about Ron but not a lot, not anywhere near as much as I do now, through us having gone through this process. But one of the biggest things I knew was how much something like this would mean to him. And although, I mean, I love NAU. I spent three incredible years competing for NAU.
and I have really special time on that team and even still have a really strong connection to the program. And I just thought like, ah, am I gonna be the person, am I gonna be the person who can help do this story justice? But at the same time, I just, I knew that I would regret turning this down and I knew that this was such a special project to be able to work with Ron on. And also it was an opportunity for me to learn more about a program which I hold in such high regard. And so,
I responded to Ron and said, yeah, that I would love to be able to help out if I could with this project. But I kind of signed off the email just saying, if it's not me, then make sure you find someone because this is something which I would love to see come together. And from there, me and Ron had, I think we jumped on Skype and we talked about it a bit. And then we pretty soon had a conversation with Solstice Publishing. And then I think it was, I'm trying to get the timeline right.
one about probably about March where we had kind of finalized okay this is going to happen and we're going to put this together and then it was it was a process from there almost a couple of year process of putting this thing together.
tyson (05:56.413)
And so from that initial email that Ron sent you Matt, just to say, okay, hey, this is the intention. This is what I'm thinking we can do. I mean, the conversations that come around, how to actually get to a final structure, how you actually paint a story like this is a really big conversation. A really big task of just back and forth and digging and reading and talking. And what I, what I like so much and the moment I opened the book, one of the first things I thought,
And for everyone listening, this is how it's structured. The overall structure, we've got the first steps, which is in part one. Then we have the climb, which is just you guys developing a title or a name for yourselves at NAU. And then the summit, starting to be recognized as a really big player in the scene. And so much that comes in that. The dynasty, and then beyond the mountaintop is the epilogue. And I thought, hey, what a perfect painting.
to start, it's a nice kind of a structure for people to be able to open and go, hey, well I'm actually really interested in hearing a little bit about this part of the story. And then as your education on the actual subject starts to expand and develop a little bit more, all the other parts of the puzzle start to click into place. But in terms of actually how you guys found your way to this final structure, I thought that's something that doesn't come together easily, that's taken a lot of work.
Ron Mann (07:14.932)
And it was a beautiful dance between Matt and I in that I sort of had a idea of the overall look of it. And then I knew those early years and I knew that was a part of the early structure, but then Matt took it and redefined that, if you will. And we began to come up with the idea that
I would do the video chats, if you will, the Zoom calls, and then I would record those Zoom calls and I would send those Zoom calls to Matt. And the first one that we did, actually the first Zoom call that we did was with George Young. And it was a wonderful, I went down, actually it wasn't a Zoom, I actually, cause George did not Zoom, I went down to his house in Casa Grande.
and recorded it and then I sent it to Matt. And I think Matt pretty much came alive at that and going, wow, this, what happened in 1968 was very special. And he had the understanding of the end of the story. And I think, Tyson, I think you put it very, very well in that it is the story of the program.
Matt Baxter (08:22.6)
Mm-hmm.
Ron Mann (08:34.5)
is very similar to the story of any individual athlete and their progression. There are early years that nobody sees, the medium years that get somewhat published, and then those final years that are the top of the podium. And each athlete goes through that transition, if you will. And for
people, no matter whether it's an athlete or another profession, never forget what it is that your roots are. And now the athletes at Northern Arizona and athletes all over the world have an understanding of the roots and where they came from and never to forget your roots. And whether you're in Australia or New Zealand or the United States or anywhere in the world,
in any business, never forget your roots and take a hold of the precious present, which is where NAU is now. And Mike Smith is very appreciative and knowledgeable about where he's at and the dedication and the Matt Baxter's and the David McNeils and everybody that went along with.
to get Northern to where it's at today. So yeah, it was a wonderful dance and still is.
tyson (09:58.301)
Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. Well said, Ron. I've recently been watching the TV series 1883, so I've got a real appreciation for that pioneering spirit that comes with any task. It's fresh on my mind at the moment. And the early years is one thing that I'm really keen to pick your brain about. Now, obviously, you go into great depth about the highs, the lows, the struggles, the wins, the doubts, and everything that comes with, I mean, any pioneering phase, but
with specific reference to what we're talking about here, the creation, the development of NAU. But Ron, when you think about the earlier years of this program, what are some of the standout memories or standout challenges that come to mind when you tell the story of what it is that was taking place?
Ron Mann (10:46.208)
Well, as an athlete, as a young athlete, I mean, I was 18 years old when I, I'm, when I walked into that, uh, Sechrist hall in Flagstaff, Arizona. And I walk in and the first person I meet in the hallway and his room is Jim Ryan. I mean, that's a pretty amazing, uh, initiation to Flagstaff, Arizona. And, and for anyone to have that opportunity. So those early years were.
very, very struggling for the program. I mean, it was a brand new program. We didn't have the number of shoes or any of the, you know, the things that.
that the athletes have today, the performance center and all of that. We got a pair of shoes, a pair of sweats, and you had one coach. And so to see it bloom into what it is today, it's quite remarkable. And those early years were tough ones. And I interviewed one of my teammates by the name of Steve Cross. And he remembers staying in Flagstaff over Christmas break in a snowstorm.
and all of the dorms were closed. He had very little places to eat. There weren't a lot of restaurants like there are today. And so it was, it's a wonderful time to see how it has evolved and what, you know, what there is there today. The whole town of Flagstaff has emerged into a wonderful place and, you know, a place like Buffalo Park that was really a park for buffaloes and now
the most renowned running spots in all the world.
tyson (12:30.677)
Yeah, it's interesting when you talk about altitude now, it almost goes without saying that obviously there's a benefit to performance. When we're speaking about, I don't know an endurance athlete anywhere in the world who at least at some point in their buildup or their base doesn't see the benefit of going away to altitude. And most athletes take wherever they can get it. Here in Australia, Matt, I don't know if you've spent much time at Falls Creek, but I was there for...
about five or six days, just a month ago. And we were doing a running camp up there for a number of athletes here, more community level athlete who were just interested to go up and learn about how the elites train. But I mean, for what it's worth, I'm not sure what it is in feet, but it's about 1600 meters altitude. So it's nothing incredible, but perhaps enough to get some, you know, decent physiological results from if you're spending enough time up there. But a lot of Australians, as you guys would be,
well aware, venture over to, it might be Boulder in Colorado, it might be Flagstaff where you're at because of the fact that it's so well understood. And I think a lot of that can be credited to Kenyan athletes, to the rise of Kenyans in context of how long ago we're speaking, relatively recent years, late 80s, especially early 90s and beyond. We looked at what it was that these East Africans were doing so well and beyond their lifestyle was the very foundation of the air they're breathing.
when they're running. And so I guess we look at that and we started to apply it to our own running in some regards, but I'm not sure back in the sixties, whether altitude was a really celebrated thing for endurance runners. So in these earlier years, were any athletes there for that reason, either, you know, whether it was cycling or running or any other endurance style sport, trying to get the benefits of altitude?
Ron Mann (14:26.584)
Well, it was a necessity in 1968 because the Olympic Games were in Mexico City and that was going to be at altitude. And that's what brought Jim Ryan, Conrad Nightingale, Billy Mills and George Young to Flagstaff originally because they knew that it was going to be at altitude. And there was very little knowledge about altitude. And so they had a...
physiologists that came and helped them, a guy by the name of Jack Daniels that later did a lot of research and continued to produce. And we've learned a great deal more about altitude. And in fact, in 1968 was really...
the emergence of the African, the Kenyans into the international scene with Kipchoge Keno and that whole group of athletes. And Kipchoge was the one who won the 1500 meters and of course the two Kenyans that passed George Young in the final stretch in the steeple chase. So the American athletes realized
to compete and Australians and New Zealanders as well, you know, with what Zodopec was doing and what Peter Snell was doing and all of the additional runners from Down Under, if you will, they understood that if we're going to compete at this level, we're going to have to get some altitude and many of them began to come to Flagstaff to train as well.
tyson (16:10.529)
Yeah, it's interesting hearing you speak about the athletes down under. And it was actually a nice little pivot pointing to a question I'm keen to throw at Matt. And as I mentioned briefly before, a lot of Australians, when you go to altitude, all the New Zealanders, when you go into altitude, a lot of the time, it's almost as though you go into a place of solitude. You might go up with a couple of training partners, but you're going to the mountains and you're usually going there in summer, especially here in Australia, because you're just not going to get a chance to run on trails without snow, falls, creek.
but you're going away and it can be a little bit lonely. Like the idea of going up there, even for five days, I had a great time when I was up there, but I was thinking, man, I can see the appeal of having a city at a place which is at higher altitude than this, because you get all the benefits of, you know, essentially city life with the altitude as well. So you're not having to sacrifice anything necessarily, you know, apart from going away from family or friends or whatever for a little while. But I mean, in terms of having the opportunity to build up a team and stay with the team and...
have access to everything you need, you've got that. But Matt, as a way to hear a little bit about how you got involved at NAU, what was the incentive to you? Because I mean, the history of Australian distance runners, history of New Zealand distance runners, there's plenty of class that come out of these places. But more recently, we've seen a lot of us athletes from down under make that trek across to the US to take part in that collegiate system. And...
Why wouldn't you, when you see the class of athlete that it starts to, or is really proven to develop.
Matt Baxter (17:45.67)
Yeah, definitely. I think my original idea for why I wanted to go to the US was just, I just wanted something different. I was, typically international athletes when you're 18, when you come out of high school, that's when you're starting to look at going to the US. I just wasn't ready, it wasn't something that was kind of on my radar I was interested in at that time, so I waited until I was about 21 before I came over.
which there's also merit to, because I was a little bit older, I felt like I was a little bit more mature and ready for that jump as well. And so when I was looking at colleges, honestly, I had very few options, because I was, like I said, I was 21. My times weren't quite of the caliber that colleges were looking for. And so there was only a few that were interested, and then that kind of just dwindled itself down naturally over time.
And then in the end, it was basically really only NAU that was showing real interest in me. And this was a place where I knew almost nothing about. It was kind of similar to what David McNeil was telling us, an Australian athlete who went to NAU, where he was saying, you just do a bit of Googling. And that's kind of how you're finding out about NAU. I also had, there's a New Zealander on the team at the time, Geordie Beamish. A lot of us will know Geordie Beamish now. He's, he's,
running incredibly well, he's one of the best runners in the world at the steeplechase. And so he was giving me confidence that, hey, like this is actually a really good place to come. And I really trust his word, even though I didn't really know Jordy that well, but because he's a fellow Kiwi, I trust his word more than just about anyone else's. And so I decided to go to NAU, but I just didn't know what I was getting myself into. I didn't have much of an understanding of altitude. I didn't...
know that I was going to be walking in the middle of a snowstorm and it was going to be freezing cold and it was kind of one of my first times being in proper snow. And so yeah, and it was also my first time going to the US, so there was a culture shock within that. But if you fast forward to the end of my experience, if you're looking at what I'm really taking away from when I came over to the US, first and foremost, if you're someone who's an international athlete, you're looking at going over there and you have the possibility of a free education.
Matt Baxter (20:01.238)
that's a massive thing because that's just not something we're typically getting in New Zealand and Australia. That's one, you're also getting access to a level of competition you would not get from back home. The collegiate system is world-class, without a doubt. I mean, the top end athletes within the collegiate system are competing on the world stage, and some of these people are meddling on the world stage as well. So you're competing within an incredibly high...
tyson (20:12.401)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Baxter (20:29.75)
just a high caliber, you're competing within a high caliber group of athletes. And then also you're just, you're getting tripped all around the country to go to all these different meets, have all these different incredible experiences. You get to be a part of a team, you get to invest yourself within the culture, and you just get to come away with it with your degree, with all these incredible experiences, competing at a really high level. And you also make friends where you're over there. Fingers crossed, obviously.
tyson (20:57.733)
Hehehehe.
Matt Baxter (20:57.818)
But you just can have this incredible experience. And I think that was what I didn't know when I was walking into it. I thought like, oh yeah, I'm gonna go to college and it's gonna be fun and I will get to compete at a high level, but I just had so many more takeaways. And even still now, I mean, there's a reason why I decided to stay in Flagstaff for what is now being another five years beyond when I finished college, because it's just, if I'm gonna be perfectly honest, I think it's the best place to train in the world. Flagstaff, Arizona is at the perfect elevation.
so easy to train higher, to be able to train lower. We have all the facilities you need. Like you're saying, it's a town. It's a college town. You have everything you need to be able to live your life normally, not get bored. We have incredible running trails. There's an incredibly supportive running community. I mean, there's just, there's no reason why I would train anywhere else at this point in my life.
tyson (21:49.853)
Yeah, really interesting and sort of an introduction to a topic that I'm so keen to dig down into a little bit. You mentioned a number of the factors that make it such a great place to train. And in terms of what you do get access to in Australia and New Zealand, one of the funniest things for me was, I can't remember who I was speaking to, but an athlete friend of mine years ago now made the move from Australia to America. And I was speaking to him and I said, oh, like what stands out to you about
performing or competing track and field cross-country over there and he's like man people care people watch Like that's just such an unbelievable concept for whatever reason here in Australia like the college sports system it just I went to the Australian University Games a number of times and the only spectators The university staff you have about 18 people
Matt Baxter (22:24.984)
Mm-hmm.
tyson (22:43.597)
And I mean, you watch it and you go, there's nothing inspiring about this. And you can kind of see why, because most of the athletes have gone out the night before, they're there for a holiday, they rock up on the start line, hung over, people are running six minutes, 12 for 1500 meters. Probably doesn't really justify bringing out much audience, but as you've both touched on, as I'm aware of, the international caliber of athletes that you can just look at and see in the American college system.
is obviously a huge incentive. But from what you've seen, Ron, like I know your coaching history runs deep and wide and the number of athletes that you've helped and transformed and inspired over the years is sort of endless. But from your perspective, like in terms of how the flag stuff as an actual setup has formed a foundation for what you do with your athletes, are you able to speak to that?
a little bit more because obviously everything that Matt's just said is really important to the quality of performance of an athlete to feel relatively comfortable away from home, but at altitude with everything that you need. What is it that's producing such incredible athletes from your perspective outside of you know, obviously the system and the town?
Ron Mann (24:00.632)
Well, I think that most importantly, Flagstaff, as Matt has indicated, is at the perfect elevation. And some of it we found by accident, when then it was snowing in Flagstaff, you would take the athletes, load them up in a van and go down to Sedona. And little did we know in those early years that what we were doing was using high-low. And we didn't even realize that it was high-low philosophy.
tyson (24:25.649)
Hmm.
Ron Mann (24:30.566)
And then later on, Robert Chapman did a study and found out that, you know, if you drop down to lower elevation, you have a little more oxygen. And so therefore your lactate levels don't come up as quickly. And so you can hold a lactate pace at a faster rate in Cottonwood, Arizona. And, you know, and then of course.
the idea of, you know, sleep high and train low. Well, you can go up to Flagstaff and you can, you know, get a place up towards the mountains a little bit and get another thousand feet. I had a, my home in Flagstaff was at about 8,500 feet. And so I was able to live a little higher even, and not that I was training hard at that time, but you know, you have that availability to move up and down.
And so it's just the perfect location for training. And like you said, one of my star athletes is a guy by the name of...
career, Wesley career, and he won the Boston Marathon and second at Chicago. He came that summer to Flagstaff, Arizona and was, I mean, he's Kenyan and trained very well for a long time, but having the availability to utilize all of that. Cause in Kenya, you don't have the availability to come down. So we were using high low at that point. And another guy who was training with him at the time, uh, an American by the name of Michael Eaton, uh, who qualified for the.
tyson (25:57.393)
Thanks for watching!
Ron Mann (26:06.828)
the Olympic trials, they were using that very well. And the other part of it is they made great friends with the running community and Flagstaff. And many of that running community is still there and still is able to reach out to incoming runners. And as Matt said, they're so welcoming. I mean, you know, some of the...
you can get on a track in Coconino High School or Flagstaff High School or in the NAEU. That doesn't happen in Europe. You just can't do that. You just can't jump on a track and you know if you're in Kenya there just aren't that many tracks so it's a perfect environment.
tyson (26:50.213)
Yeah. And in terms of the culture shock of training, I think in my mind, the American, especially collegiate system has a real reputation for hard work. Now, and when I say hard work, I think what stands out to me a lot of the time when an Australian goes from here to there, is that I'll look at what they've got scheduled as a relatively easy run, and I'll start seeing the times next to the runs.
that they're doing. And I'm like, okay, like there's a different mindset around what's taken place in this particular run than what's going on here in Australia. I would say Australia and New Zealand are relatively similar in terms of how we structure our weeks. And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Matt, but essentially we do our Sunday long run, Tuesday, Thursday, sometimes Saturday sessions, easy runs in and around, you know, strength work in and around. Whereas there seems to be some kind of fundamental difference with
the way that things are structured, whether it's pacing or distance. Was that a shock to you or what stood out to you, Matt, when you went from New Zealand to NAU for the first time, what was your observations around the way that training structure vary?
Matt Baxter (28:00.522)
Yeah, I would say the biggest thing is when this was kind of the first time where I was thrown into a group setting where I clearly just wasn't the best guy. And going to Flagstaff is a little more unique because you do have an adjustment period to altitude and you don't know exactly how long that's going to take. I typically say for me, it really took the entire first semester for me to start understanding what it felt like to push myself at altitude. And
what it meant when I was kind of going over the line. So it's so, cause once you go over the line in a workout, you really, it's really hard to come back. Usually you don't. And so you've got to make sure that you're staying within the zones that you want to stay in, because once that lactate spikes, it's kind of over. And so I felt like I was doing every workout and it was just all out. I was just trying to hang with the front guys and I was dying and just about everything. And Mike Smith,
who came on and overlapped for a season halfway through my first year when Eric Hines was on his way out. He had said at the end of that year that he didn't think I was gonna be any good because I was getting dropped in just about every single workout, but I was also just working harder than I'd ever worked. With that combination of being at altitude, being within a group and just...
it just gets more out of you than what you would get out of training by yourself. And I think that's the biggest difference I noticed between New Zealand and the US was I was just doing everything solo. I would occasionally meet up with some guys for the odd run but pretty much everyone has different coaches. So we're all kind of different, doing different things. And it's really hard to overlap for workouts. And then suddenly I'm put on a team with, I mean, there's probably 15 other guys and we're all doing the exact same thing. We might have different pace groups but there's always gonna be someone
pretty much performing better than you on that day for that workout. So you're always kind of getting dragged along. And it was just hard. It was just really hard work. And we pretty much had it structured of doing a Tuesday, Friday workout with a Saturday long run. And I felt that, I found that hard with the Friday workout, which is trashing your legs and then doing Saturday long run, which is typically time on feet, but that back to back was always hard.
tyson (30:07.6)
Hmm.
Matt Baxter (30:18.038)
but it also meant that Sunday would have to be relatively relaxed and just being at altitude, easy days, usually you're taking them pretty easy because you just don't want to put yourself in a hole and you have to really prioritize recovery a bit more than maybe you would at sea level. But yeah, I mean, that's just the biggest thing. It was just, the training was significantly harder than what I had endured up to that point. But once I started to adjust to altitude and I started to understand what my body could handle and what it meant when I was pushing too hard.
Um, then it started feeling better. And now, I mean, with all my workouts, I'm it's, it's still hard. It's still hard to kind of describe the difference, but it's, it's still harder than it feels at sea level, but I just, I just know what kind of paces make sense for me. Um, and that's, that was just the whole learning curve. Um, but man working, working out with a group, uh, in the U S like with these, with these collegiate guys, it's just so much fun.
I mean, that's the biggest thing. That's also why it's so hard is because I was, it might sound like two opposing things, but it was so hard because it was so fun. Like I didn't want to miss out on it. Like when the boys are rolling and they're going fast on a rep and they're pushing it, I don't want to miss out on that. Like I want to be a part of that. So often I'm putting myself out there a little bit more and putting myself into a hole a little bit more because I don't want to miss out on everyone's working hard. I don't want to be the one who's not. So.
Yeah, that group mentality and everyone working super hard, I think that also definitely brought out the best in me.
tyson (31:50.713)
For sure, and that young age, naturally, like that testosterone's absolutely bubbling. They're trying to figure out what it is that you can actually achieve as an athlete. As you say, it's competitive, it's fun, it's hard, it's almost like your own little tribe. And as a result, I've seen a lot of athletes turn out to be essentially collateral for their inability to be able to monitor when should be an easy day, when should be a hard day, and as a result, every workout.
turns into a almost race-based effort. Is there a lot of that or how, Ron, do you sort of manage that particular work ethic? Because obviously that work ethic, that hard work, is something that should be really celebrated, but I can imagine can be frustrating as a coach when you start to see quality dip in performance because the last seven days, not only have they run 100 miles, but most of it's been near the red.
Ron Mann (32:47.032)
But you know, one of the beautiful things of today's technology is the use of the watches that are available. And I utilize Garmin and I can take a look at the Garmin workout and see, well, they're out of their training zone. This was meant to be a recovery run.
So now you can monitor it on a person by person basis and, and visit with that individual athlete and say, you know, Hey, you can, you, you ran that rep too hard, your zone is more at this. And I mean, you get, uh, an extreme amount of data that is available to you in, in today's world from heart rate to respiration, to VO two levels, to lactate. I mean, you get it all. Uh, you know, one of the,
the early, one of the chapters was every Tuesday. And it was about, we got on the track every Tuesday and we ran 400s every Tuesday. We didn't know any better.
And our coach didn't know any better. That's what you did. And what Matt was just talking about, the boys all lined up and you ran as hard as you could this week and tried to beat up on the other guys and you'd come back the next week, maybe you're dead and you'll come back and try it again. And all of it, but we didn't have the technology and, and our coach just, he had a stopwatch and that was it. And now everybody's got their Garmin and.
tyson (34:07.057)
Hehehehe
Ron Mann (34:20.492)
the coach is getting the data and you can go, wow, you know, that was too hard for you. Let's back that off a little bit. So the coach athlete relationship, and that's another thing that has become.
a hallmark to Northern Arizona University, the coach athlete relationship. I was at the NCAA championships this last fall, and, and was in the hotel with Mike Smith and, and that, that group and, and the relationship and the trust level that has to go between coach and athlete is so paramount and it's so significant within any program and any coach athlete relationship, but you could see it. And I was.
to experience it as a gentleman in my 70s now to watch a 40-year-old coach working with a 20-year-old athlete. There was a beautiful relationship and trust between all levels there. Mike respected me very much and I certainly respect what he's doing.
those athletes are bought in. And that's half of the development process as Matt has found out with Northern Arizona Elite, having a group of people in Flagstaff, Arizona, that's a pro group, that's able to continue to develop is remarkable. And so I think it's so paramount of what we have in today's technology and this.
uh... high-performance center that they have in the Flagstaff you know they get so much data and the training rooms and the massage and everything that you get that's available to the professional athletes in northern arizona elite has a complete center now that they're utilizing with massage therapy and ice pools and all of the above and matt you want to speak to that a little bit?
Matt Baxter (36:21.382)
Yeah, you know, even I was just thinking as you're talking there about when you're trying to control the effort at altitude, but you're also trying to still keep things competitive and fun within the group. I always found one of the things which, which I think we did really well at NAU and even still now with NAZ is getting competitive about the time you're trying to hit as being the specific time that the coach is allocating for you. So when we're on the track.
Ron Mann (36:23.7)
Bye.
Matt Baxter (36:50.723)
you don't always want every workout to be all out because then you're just gonna put yourself in a hole. But there are fun ways of still being competitive by when someone's leading a rep and saying, let's just say they're leading a K rep and it's gonna be 250. And then before you get on the line, someone's saying, dude, there's no way you're gonna hit 250 for this. There's no way you're gonna hit 250 on the dot. And then that person's like, okay then. And then they're doing the laps and it was, they finished 249.
see, I told you can hit 250. And then you just, it's milliseconds. We're honing it on milliseconds. Someone will run 250.2. I told you can hit 250. Like it's that kind of silly fun competitiveness that you almost don't realize that you're actually teaching each other to hit the splits as you want to, but you're being competitive about trying to get as accurate on that split as you can. I've always found that's been a good way of helping pull back the...
the effort when you don't need to be going all out. But yeah, I mean, what we have at NAU is just incredible in terms of facilities. Yeah, as Ron was speaking to, the new performance sensor they have there, the altitude control chamber where they have all the older Gs set up, or the WorldWay treadmills, they have an older G in there. The team is really enjoying using the treadmills for really controlled efforts, and especially when it's been winter now.
being able to get controlled efforts outside of the dome on a pretty comfortable treadmill. Yeah, I mean, they just have everything they need. There's really good sports medicine and Flagstaff, so even if they need to seek treatment outside of the university, which sometimes you do, they have that available to them. So it's just, and it's just keep growing. Even from when I was on the team, I think during a cross-country season, we...
we might've got a couple of massages. And that was really special to us. Like, oh man, right before regionals, right before nationals, we get massages. And that was always special. And then the next season, I think we were getting five massages over a cross country season. And then my final season, we're getting a massage every week. And it's just kept growing. Cause that's something you also have to prioritize. I mean, you've got to make sure that the athletes are looked after and they're healthy. And that is something that, you know, you especially really prioritizes.
tyson (39:07.957)
Yeah, I think the psychology of what you just mentioned is really important as well. It is so exciting when you're a young athlete and you started to be treated as a professional. Something happens within you that says, okay, well, if this is how I'm being treated, obviously there's something within me that these guys care enough about to nurture. And I've had a number of experiences like that in my own career where here in Australia, we had like an up and coming program. It was called the Addi Runner where
where Adidas supported a handful of Australian runners each year, which I was a part of for about three or four years. And essentially with that program, what they did, they said, well, your gear's covered, some travel's covered, here's some... Anything that you pretty much need to be able to perform, well, Adidas looked after you. And it was essentially a taste test of what a professional sponsorship would look like. And I remember being accepted for an application of that because I thought my times were at a point where I was...
a realistic possibility to be considered for something like that. And when it was, there was something in my mind that went, oh my gosh, like, okay, like people are starting to take, it got me excited. It like further developed that sense of passion to be a professional. Was that much of your experience, man? How did you feel when you started to be treated a little more professionally than what you'd be treated here in, well, in your case in New Zealand?
Matt Baxter (40:30.814)
Yeah, definitely. And I think we still start out with relatively humble beginnings. I think the hardest thing, and it's different now, but when I first came onto the NAU team, I mean, we got, I think we got like a backpack and we got a couple of pairs of shoes and a bunch of cotton tees, which are horrendous to run in. Because as soon as it sweats, you get nipple chafing and it's hot in the summer and it's not really quite enough in the winter.
tyson (40:53.361)
Hehe
Matt Baxter (40:58.69)
So we weren't necessarily getting a lot, but it was enough to get by and we still appreciated it. And we got a gift from Adidas right before we ran nationals in 2016. And it was this awesome box with this kind of like a plaque type thing that said, ready ho, which was a really special saying that had been on the team for a while. And we got these gold-heeled Adidas shoes and this really nice jacket and.
That was really special for us because we'd never had anything like that before. And every year it's just kind of growing upon that and Adidas' support of NAU has just continued to grow. And now they're getting kitted out with everything they need. They're getting specially designed singlets before nationals. And so the support is incredible. The biggest thing you should never do as a collegiate athlete is compare what you're getting to another school. Because I guarantee there's always gonna be someone at another school who's getting more than you.
But that means absolutely nothing about the experience you're getting from your college. And that's the biggest thing. When I'm on the NAU team and I'm just getting a couple of cotton tees and a pair of shorts and someone else at another university is getting a truckload of gear and they get in shoes in every single different color, but they're not training at altitude. They don't have trails right outside the door. They don't have what we have in Flagstaff. So what you're wearing really doesn't matter because we still have things that...
that these schools cannot buy. Whereas now, NAU's kind of leveled that in terms of we get all this incredible gear and it's great, and we have all these facilities, and we live in one of the best places in the world to train. So NAU's always gonna have that advantage. But yeah, it was definitely special feeling that investment. And I honestly, I felt that investment from the moment I had signed the scholarship forms. When I look at that bit of paper,
And it tells me how much this university is investing in me in terms of a scholarship. I mean, if anyone who has seen this, you understand what I'm saying. I mean, I'm looking at this number and I'm thinking, this is incredible. Like I had no idea that a university would be willing to invest this much money in me. So I felt that immediately, like straight away, oh, if this university is gonna invest in me, then I'm gonna make sure I give, I'm gonna give everything while I'm here. And I'm gonna do whatever I can to help the team and I'm gonna be invested in the program and I'm gonna...
Matt Baxter (43:21.27)
buy into the culture and I'm gonna love it. And sure, I'm gonna have ups and downs along the way and there's gonna be times where it's challenging and maybe I feel homesick and all that. But at the end of the day, I came here and I'm gonna go all in on this university and I'm gonna spend the next, this time it was gonna be three years for NAU and I'm gonna spend three years giving my all for NAU. And yeah, I mean, getting the access to the treatment and being able to travel all around the country and everything is just incredible. Yeah, I mean, it's-
It's, you can see why people get so passionate about their schools. It's like when we're, let's just say like me and you Tyson, we're watching Australia and New Zealand play in a rugby world cup or something. And we're like, man, I want to see New Zealand beat Australia. We've got this fiery rivalry. I mean, I have that same fiery rivalry when I'm in an NAU singlet lining up against BYU or lining up against Stanford or Oregon, like I have this passionate.
intense desire to beat these other teams which never existed possibly a year before. I might not have ever heard of BYU before I came to NAU and suddenly within a year I want nothing more than to beat them because you just you get so absorbed within the culture and it becomes a part of you and even still now I'm still I still have these passionate rivalries in me and when
when NAU is lining up for a race, and I would give anything to be able to line up with them because I want to beat these other teams with the guys. And I think that's one of the most special things coming over as an international is you really get thrust into it, and if you get completely behind what your college is doing, I mean, it's such a fun experience.
tyson (45:04.873)
Man, you're making me so frustrated. I'm not 18 and running some relatively fast times because it just sounds like such an unbelievable experience. Ron, over the years, it's just mind blowing. And this is another podcast in itself. I realised that, and I mentioned briefly before the amount of athletes that you've worked with, the amount of backgrounds that people are coming to you from, you know, the different levels of talent and commitment.
Matt Baxter (45:08.162)
Hahaha.
tyson (45:32.781)
What is it that you think you and the other coaching crew are doing so well to cultivate so many different styles of athletes who are coming? Because I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that I know who have gone to NAU and have come back a worse runner. Like David McNeil, that friend of mine, I've been competing or was competing against him relatively regularly from about the age of 13. I think we raced each other.
a national 3000 metre title here in Melbourne in the year 2000. Um, I was second last in that race. The only bloke behind me, I'm pretty sure was Dave McNeil, which is mind boggling to say now he went away to NAU as a great athlete and he came back as a world class athlete and it's, it's just so interesting to see that transformation take place with so many athletes. So from a coach's perspective.
You mentioned a couple of things before, obviously the ability to see the information that technology gives access to, the trust that's required between athlete and coach. What else do you value or really hold in high regard as a coach helping cultivate the athletes you're working with?
Ron Mann (46:46.36)
Well, I think it's very well illustrated throughout the book. The fiber throughout the book is, and this is true in any organization, but creating a culture. And I think Matt mentioned it very well here in that, you know, you look forward to it. You look forward to going out there and getting your brains beat out and having fun doing it. And that's what...
you as a coach, you as a administrator, you as a builder, you build the foundation of a culture that is bigger than you are and that culture, you know, and, and
You know, you look at a Petri dish and you take that little dot and put it in there and it begins to grow. And I think that that's what you'd look at in terms of building a program, whether that's at a high school level, a collegiate level, an international level or an international business. You create a culture that is bigger than yourself.
One time someone asked me what events do you coach? And I said, I don't coach events, I coach people. And so you create a culture where the culture is bigger than any one individual. And then what happens is each individual, as they come in, they come in and they grow, and then they take away from that. And you look at...
tyson (48:01.595)
Hmm.
Ron Mann (48:18.768)
any organization like that and they're very proud of what it is that they're a part of and Matt put it very well earlier he's so proud of what's going on I'm so proud of what's going on I'm so proud of where this book was able to expose
what that fiber of the culture is. They only see, most people only see the icing on top of the cake and say, wow, Northern Arizona University and Flagstaff is this wonderful community, but they don't understand the heartache and trouble and the fire that had to be in a Matt Baxter's tummy when he stepped to the line in 2016 to put him on the.
the winning podium the first time. I tried for 24 years and could never get it done and it hurt badly. So when they finally did it, I'm going, yeah. And how many other athletes and coaches were a part of that fiber that also were going, yeah, we did it. Yeah, we did it. And it wasn't they did it. It was we did it. And that's the organization of a fiber of a creative organization that
is bigger than itself.
tyson (49:35.669)
Yeah, yeah, really well said. From a young perspective, I mean, I'm sure there's hundreds and hundreds of like, college age or nearing students who are tuned into this episode and thinking, okay, well, it does sound appealing. I know that because I'm feeling it and I'm 36 years old. But from a perspective of an athlete like that, who's thinking, okay, I'd like to consider this as maybe a next.
move in my career or education or combination of both. Where do they even start with an application process? Where do they need to be in terms of being considered? What else is it that you're looking for as an actual organization to say, hey, we'd be open to talking with you about potentially working with an athlete like you?
Ron Mann (50:22.908)
I think that it's multifaceted in that the athlete has to, first of all, in today's world, you've got to be, you've got to have a presence in the media of some sort and whether that's putting together a video of yourself or whatever, but it's also making yourself available and it's not just about the marks.
You know, and sometimes it's an opportunity and.
providing and reaching out for an opportunity. As Matt did, I mean, he was the one who reached out to Northern Arizona University, and he put his foot forward first. And so I would say to any young student is, do your Google search and find 10 universities, whether they're in the United States or in Australia or New Zealand, and find some places that you find fit your style,
those people. And then once you reach out to them, as happened with Matt, wait until somebody comes back to you and say, wow, this is a fit. And then there's a, I call them Godwinks and Matt coming to Northern Arizona University was a Godwink. Me having the availability to spend the time and energy at Northern Arizona, that's a Godwink. That's...
That's not something you choose. That's something that is ordained for you. And to be able to identify and recognize as Matt did.
Ron Mann (52:04.456)
I'm going to go for this, you know, and for Eric Hines to say, here's a young guy. And so many international students come over and they do fail. And the reason they fail is not because they failed, it's because they didn't keep trying long enough. If Matt would have looked at the end of his first semester, he would have go, I'm packing up and going home.
But he didn't, it was a matter of fortitude and a matter of saying, I'm gonna stick this out. Somebody invested in me. And having the availability to understand that people are invested in you and then writing that on out and making it not only worth the university as well, but making it worth your while.
Matt Baxter wouldn't be where he's at today if Matt Baxter wouldn't have taken the chance and kept his nose to the grindstone and continued to fight and dig and fight and dig until now he's one of the best there is in his country.
tyson (53:07.325)
Yeah, yeah, well said, Ron. Matt, just on that, before I let you guys go, when you did reach out to the few universities originally in the US, you said you weren't necessarily taking world-class times to anyone at that stage. What was it that you think made NAU and yourself such a good fit, like a combination of character and times and grades and what kind of times were you bringing to the table?
Matt Baxter (53:36.614)
Yeah, so it just, all right, in terms of the times I'd run, I'd run, I think for a 3K, I'd run 814, which was a couple of years old at that point, like when I was starting to reach out. I had run, I think maybe by the end of the year before coming, I'd run 1410 for a 5K, which is a solid time, and I'm not in any way gonna suggest that isn't a solid time, but I think the big tipping point for me going to NAU was my cross-country results.
That was what Eric was looking for. He was looking for someone, 2015 was a down year for the program, for the NAU program, and they were reloading or getting, he was getting all of his cards ready for 2016, and he was looking for someone who can help in terms of cross country. And so that was where I think that really helped me get in. There's a lot of other people who are 21 around the world who probably could run a 1410 5K, but there weren't a lot who could,
perform on the grass like I could. And so it was actually a guy, Ben Ashkettle, who's based in Australia, he's friends with David McNeil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's originally from New Zealand and he went to NAU. He was on team at the same time as David McNeil. And we mentioned that a little bit in the book and actually how important Ben was to David at the time, because David was going through a rough patch when he first arrived at NAU. He, same thing, it was a culture shock.
tyson (54:43.465)
I know Ben well, yeah.
Matt Baxter (55:05.458)
And he was young and he wasn't sure if he had made the right decision going over there. And he was in one of the coaches offices in tears because he was having this, these thoughts of, I mean, did I make the right decision? And, um, that was a perfect, uh, perfect example of sometimes you just, you're going to have that. You're going to go through those waves of like, should I have done this? And then if you stick through it, then sometimes you can come out the other side and be significantly better for it because you appreciate it. When you commit through a moment like that.
through that uncertainty of, I don't know if I've made the right decision, but you still commit and you kind of dig your heels in, then there's kind of no turning back at that point. You're like, no, I've committed. This is what I'm gonna do. And so back to the story, Ben Ashkettle, who was there with David McNeil at the time when they're on the NAU team together, I met Ben in 2015 when I was running the Australian Cross Country Championships. And so I'd had a bit of communication with Eric Hines at that point.
But nothing was set. Nothing was like, oh, I'm definitely gonna go to NAU And I ran the Australian cross-country champs It was 12k right before everything switched to 10 and I got I believe I got sixth and I'd outkicked And this is in senior men and I outkicked a guy who Been had said here run like 28 40 something for a 10k I had not run a 10k on the track at that point. And so being called Eric Hines and said hey
Like this is a guy who is gonna be good at cross. So I think it's worthwhile that you take him. And so it was basically on the spot. Ben helped me facilitate all of that. And so Eric took me. The other crazy part to the story is I've been with my girlfriend for, at this point, I mean, we've been together for about four years since we were 16. She wasn't necessarily looking at coming to college because she was a year older and we didn't know in terms of eligibility and everything. And so she's sitting there, she ran the race as well. And Ben said, oh, well,
Emily, are you going to look at going to the US? And then she was like, oh, you know, like, I don't think it's going to work out. And he's like, I'll just I'll call Eric now for you. He got on the phone with Eric. Eric said, yeah, we'll take her as well. And so suddenly. We're both on a plane going to Flagstaff. We've been together now for 13 years. We have a three year old son. I credit. I can't say all of it, obviously, but I credit a piece of it to be in facilitating all of that to Eric, taking both of us on.
tyson (57:17.509)
Wow.
Matt Baxter (57:29.562)
for our incredible relationship that we have and us being able to live and live the lifestyle we do in Flagstaff. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the big things I would say to international athletes who are looking at the collegiate system. If some of your track times aren't super strong, but you do really well at cross, really lean into those cross-country results because schools appreciate that.
If this is a school that does really well at cross country and they can see that you're really strong on the grass, then that can be one of the things that get you in the door because I genuinely think that was the thing that got me in the door at NAU. And I would also suggest cast a really wide net because realistically most colleges are not gonna reply to you. Think about how many, I mean, Ron would know this through having been a college coach and being through this, you must be getting inundated with high schoolers just within the US, which is...
I would imagine your priority pool of high schoolers within the US who want to come to your college and you've got to sift through all of this. And then suddenly you have an email from some random kid in New Zealand and Australia and Great Britain and all this as well. And so what you need to do with some of these emails, obviously cast a wide net, send emails out to a bunch of different colleges that do your degree that you want to do first and foremost, because you don't want to sacrifice that. And also do well within the sport that you're trying to excel in.
And the priorities within that email, really basic, put your times, because whenever you don't put times in, it's just, no matter whether you're proud of your times or not, put times in, put in cross-country results, because that can also be really important. Put your grades in college, and also, I would honestly suggest put an emphasis that you can't wait, or you would be really excited about competing for that college, being a part of that team culture.
Because that's the thing I think a lot of us miss is that if you can be someone who, maybe you're not the best person on the team, but you can have a massive influence on the team culture and you can make everyone around you better, you're a hell of a lot more, you're gonna be a lot more important to that team than a lot of other people, just because you're gonna help facilitate some of those performances because of how much of an important role you play within making sure that everyone is enjoying what they're doing.
Matt Baxter (59:52.502)
So those are kind of my suggestions. If you're a young international athlete and you're looking at going to the collegiate system. And the final thing I would say is that don't think that you're just gonna go to the US, get your degree and go home. And you just kind of, the most simple way I would put it is use and abuse the system. You got to appreciate what you're going into. You got to appreciate that coaches have built these programs over years. If you're reading this book, Running Up the Mountain,
you will see how much time and effort coaches have put into a program like NAU over the years and why they care about it to the degree they do. So you also, when you go into a college program, you also need to care about it like that. You need to care about the legacy you're leaving behind. You need to leave it in a better place than how you found it. And you need to have fun. Those are the biggest things. If you don't feel like that's gonna be the right thing for you, then do something else. Stay, stay back in New Zealand.
do university or stay back in Australia, do university, maybe that's gonna be a better fit for you. But if you're excited about being involved in that culture and competing in something like that, then the collegiate system is definitely something to consider.
tyson (01:01:01.185)
Yeah, super well said.
Ron Mann (01:01:02.412)
And let the coach of the places that you're interested in, do some research on that coach and that program, and let them know that you're interested in them. And don't tell the coach and the program how much you can do for them, but let the coach know how much you appreciate the program and the success that it's had in the past. Because...
Coaches get thousands and thousands of letters and yours needs to be unique. And we hear all the time how great the athlete is. They talk about themselves and rarely do they take the time to research the program and realize that just didn't happen overnight and that it's something to be revered.
tyson (01:01:55.317)
Yeah, awesome fellas. Guys, I so appreciate you taking the time to come and share your stories, your insights, your education. I know both of you actually, and if either of you are interested, I'd love to do another podcast with each of you individually, because I know you've each got an incredible story to tell of your own, but the one that you've told about the creation of a university like this, the culture is unbelievable. I'll make sure I'll link the book.
in the show notes for anyone who's interested in picking themselves up a copy. But for now, thanks so much for stopping by and yeah, I really appreciate you making the time to come on.
Ron Mann (01:02:31.885)
Thank you.
Matt Baxter (01:02:33.026)
Thanks Tyson, appreciate it mate.
tyson (01:02:36.497)
cut that off there. Fellas, that was so much fun.
Matt Baxter (01:02:40.859)
Awesome, yeah thanks man.
tyson (01:02:41.253)
That was a great.