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The Sword&Spade podcast is about...
Jason Craig (00:00.086)
If you don't have sympathy for modern young Marxists, I don't think you spend enough time with them because they actually do have, they've experienced a lot of them, whether they, mean, maybe they're just, you know, from super wealthy, you know, home and they just went to college and got brainwashed. But my experience, a lot of them are drawn to actually really feeling a sense of imbalance through the suffering of other people. And they at least have an intellectual structure provided through them through Marxism that helps them fight for something. It seems a lot better than let's say the other extreme of a libertarian upbringing.
Jason Craig (00:45.016)
Jared Stout, my friend. Dr. Jared Stout, welcome to the Sword and Spade podcast. Yeah, people don't know this if they're listening or watching, but you're my neighbor now. At one point you were my enemy, which was when I was trying to get in the Augustan Institute. And I'm only telling this story because it's related to the book that you wrote we're going to talk about. And you, after a long conversation, you didn't think I should get in. You allowed me in on probation.
Dr. Jared Staudt (00:49.534)
Thanks for having me from down the street.
Jason Craig (01:13.858)
And then the first paper I wrote for you was on the virtue of religion.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:19.95)
It's called sucking up.
Jason Craig (01:21.582)
I can't remember if I knew though that that was your thesis or if for your doctoral thesis or if I was sucking up actually but since then yes I have everything I've written including recently published books you know I put a little footnote of where I've quoted you in there and that is completely just it's unnecessary it's just for your sake or for my sake.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:45.368)
Thank you. I'll say it's for my sake. I appreciate it.
Jason Craig (01:49.09)
I'm still sucking up to just get in the school. But the story is, yeah, you were the academic dean at the Guzman Institute. And I was trying to get in and maybe didn't have all that I needed. But we worked.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:59.864)
Well, you didn't have a bachelor's degree, right? You had an associate's degree. And this is what pushed me over the edge is that you almost had enough credits for a bachelor. So I said, okay, fine, I guess I'll take you into the school. Yeah.
Jason Craig (02:14.45)
In which case then you became a neighbor because we lived in Littleton and then now we're both in North Carolina living the easy leisurely life of homesteading. I'm saying that because there's more to it than that.
Dr. Jared Staudt (02:28.236)
And it relates to our topic of the virtue of religion. Yeah. Because, you know, we're going to get into what the virtue means, but the broadest sense is that everything that you do should become an act of worship and honor for God. And that's very difficult to do in the modern world. And I think ultimately that's why we're here, you know, trying to live a different kind of life.
Jason Craig (02:50.882)
All right, you're already getting ahead. we, you know, infriternus and you're fraternus brother now, you've moved here. You know, we just go endlessly around these virtues with the different topics. so let's just acknowledge something I think upfront that your thesis, the virtue of religion, most people aren't gonna know what that means. And it essentially puts our acts of religion. So the reason we go to church.
The reason we go to mass, the reason we worship God. If you ask most fathers out there who are trying to raise their sons and have a vibrant family, they're gonna say, this is a matter of faith, which it is. You're saying the virtue of religion falls under justice.
Dr. Jared Staudt (03:37.262)
Yeah, it's an important point, especially if we're talking about religion as a virtue. Most people today would say religion's a vice, right? You know, it's like something we're trying to overcome, right? Like religion is bad. And it's interesting because I mean, there are bad religions out there. And because there are bad religions that encourage people to do evil things.
Jason Craig (03:58.242)
band isn't it?
Dr. Jared Staudt (04:00.234)
You would know better than I would.
Jason Craig (04:02.094)
So, don't make you do evil things.
Dr. Jared Staudt (04:04.59)
Yeah, there are religions like that, or there are others that really have been created to prop somebody up and to create a corrupt system that really is just duping people. so people look at religions like that and they just say, well, that is religion. That is the essence of religion.
Jason Craig (04:25.066)
So that's the broad idea of religion. think there's also people as I, I mean, as I studied, as I learned, it was fascinating to me because I had, come up in the United States and we have what I think it's Christian Smith dubbed therapeutic moral or therapeutic deism.
Dr. Jared Staudt (04:41.39)
Moralistic therapeutic D is MTD. For all those who watch MTV or is that still a thing?
Jason Craig (04:51.628)
Played religion. And I became a, you know, I didn't really grow up with any kind of church and I became an evangelical Protestant at one point and then just living in the, you know, the United States. So for the purpose of religion, for some people might be propping up this system, religion for other purposes, whatever the religion in the United States, especially around Christianity, was that God would make us feel better about our problems and would fix our problems.
And the reason you go to church is because you get something out of it. so I mean, I'm formed and I can't not think something, you these these air we breathe, we don't know. And this affects how we do catechesis, how we teach our families, how we communicate the gospel itself. So I want to ask you more about what it actually looks like, because a lot of that's really attractive in the form like the evangelical world. You know, they're just very good at communicating. You have a void in your heart.
For God and this there's a lot of this is true. There's a void in your heart. It's God will fill the void therefore. You should give your life to Christ. He will fill that and in my kind of research and like I don't know understanding examining things like how we communicate in the world that has been like the word youth ministry or catechesis that God has actually become. A really good choice among other choice that you should make because the return is great like.
ultimate fulfillment in peace and contentment. And there might be there's some truth we can talk about in all of that, but it's very different to tell someone you ought to go to church because you owe God devotion. And so tell me like what the difference is and like,
Dr. Jared Staudt (06:40.314)
How many hours do you have? can read the book. It's thick one if you really want to get all the details. I want to take a big step back though, because why is it that let's say Joseph Smith could come up with something like Mormonism and fool a lot of people or Mohammed could draw people into religion that spread through violence? think ultimately,
Jason Craig (06:45.868)
It's not
Jason Craig (07:05.694)
Isn't both of them they have angels with golden tablets that are now lost?
Dr. Jared Staudt (07:09.528)
Well, I mean, that's the first one, but I mean, but there are striking similarities in those experiences for sure. But if we take a step back farther from that, why would somebody even be able to corrupt religion? It is because there is something in us, you know, and I think this comes even from the natural law that points us to God, that there is a creator. We don't just come from nothing. That's not even possible. And that
everything that we do is ultimately ordered towards something bigger than ourselves. And in the ancient world, I mean, if you had that sense, but you didn't have God's revelation, you you wouldn't know what to do exactly. But I think this is where people had this idea that God is remote from us, but that we should honor him in some way. And the major way that people have honored him throughout history is sacrifice. To say that
I'm going to give up something that's important to me. I'm going to offer it to God to show that he is greater than anything else. That seems to be the kernel of religion throughout the century.
Jason Craig (08:18.668)
purpose, so just to ask that question, because I hear that quote a lot, I'm not sure we in our modern minds can easily say that, right? Who was it? Somebody who in an Eastern religion in the last century, said something like, one of the worst things about modern man is he has disconnected sacrifice from religion. Why was it? Why is sacrifice such an obvious thing to do that I think now we would make fun of it? Or I think plenty of people would say, why, you know, why are you
throwing a virgin in a volcano to appease what? why is that happening?
Dr. Jared Staudt (08:53.784)
Well, appeasement is one, maybe, aspect of sacrifice, but I think it actually comes more fundamentally from the fact that we set certain things apart for God. And so that's what the word sacrifice means, to make holy. It's as if we're saying that this world needs some kind of action to be done to it to order it to God. I think that's the heart of it.
But because there are problems that come up, whether it is like a plague or famine or acts of evil, that's where then the reparation comes in. you know, I mean, it's yes, people have done things like throw virgins and volcanoes, but in that case, what are they saying? Like we're giving to you what is most pure and most innocent, most beautiful offering it up as a sacrifice that we're, you know, of reparation. But, you know, even like that.
Seemingly silly example though points us to to Christ already, know that the very Greatest thing within creation God himself coming into creation You know that he is willing to offer himself up and reparation for all not just to appease an angry God but to sanctify it and I think that's where we come back to the bigger understanding of sacrifice now you were asking particularly about You know MTD moralistic therapeutic deism and in this
religion that's focused on self. And I would say that in my opinion, and I think this is something I taught at the Augustine Institute, that the whole modern world is really focused on the self. That's kind of what the modern world is. It's like a revolution against the past that is seeking to reorder society, reorder religion, reorder politics, economics, the family, everything to be ordered towards achieving my own
personal good.
Jason Craig (10:50.926)
So reoriented towards us. So yeah, I recall you taught this. And I think we've discussed it over the years. There's the revolt, the Protestant revolt against the authority of the church, the revolt, the French Revolution against the authority of the state, the the technology or the state. I'm getting ahead of myself. Industrial revolution, sort of a revolt against the home in place and the technological revolution that we're still living in, which is even turned
Dr. Jared Staudt (11:10.744)
Is it industrial?
Jason Craig (11:21.59)
against us, our own, we were mutilate our own bodies. Against any limits. So we've kind of cast off all these authorities that would have ordered us towards, let's just say back in their wholeness and perfection towards God. And it's really been a reordering back towards us, which is why I think this, I don't know, the selfie becomes the icon of it's our highest form of art right now. Was it, but we're, swimming in those waters.
Dr. Jared Staudt (11:24.438)
revolt against the limits of nature.
Dr. Jared Staudt (11:50.732)
Yeah, think how serious this is that the fall is a great rupture, right? That disorders everything and breaks relationships. I think religion, even natural religion perfected by the religion of Christ offering himself on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, it's all ordered towards reconciling, like our alienation ultimately from God, but also with each other and with the earth.
It's trying to bring everything back together. But the modern world, to me, seems like it's doubling down on these divisions that sin creates. And it wants to say that those divisions are actually good, making them the goal.
Jason Craig (12:29.344)
It's it's. Which is why the Wendell Berry calls us that we live in the age of divorce and divorces and the sexual revolution, everything around it is still communicated as a means of freedom for the individual, not as a division of something that ought to be together. I mean, it's it's even it's only just now that there are even books coming out that saying, you know, from from children of divorce say this hurt a little bit. You know, this was.
Dr. Jared Staudt (12:58.402)
Yeah, a little.
Jason Craig (12:58.83)
This was not okay. Yeah, these. But these divisions are still. Categorize being categorized as freedoms, so even the division of your ego and yourself from your own body in the form of you know, and this is the most extravagant example right now, I think in the. Trans world to actually rebel and divide from the reality of your own body.
Dr. Jared Staudt (13:01.122)
We both experienced that.
Jason Craig (13:28.216)
for your own sake. Sort of this presumption St. Paul even makes in scripture or that our Lord makes multiple times that a man doesn't hate his own body. Like that's the beginning of just, you you're gonna take care of your own body and your own children and what are you gonna give them? Scorpions? And it's almost like now, yeah, I will. I will give them a scorpion and I will hate my own body if it gets in the way of myself.
Dr. Jared Staudt (13:53.46)
And then to connect this all back to the virtue of religion, right? I mean, there has been this insight throughout human history that the way of overcoming these problems within us and around us is by reordering things to God. And I would say, what is moralistic therapeutic deism, which is, I think Christian Smith argues pretty convincingly that this is the religion of America. It's our religion today.
I would say it's the reordering of everything, including God towards us. And is it true that the deepest longings of our heart and even our deepest wounds, you know, can be healed through God? Yes. Like our deepest longings can be fulfilled through Him. But that's not it. Right? mean, simply it. Right? The way that our longings are fulfilled is not by making God
you know, into a being who is meant to serve us. I think that's even the satanic, really, fixation of the modern world. You know, that we could be a god unto ourselves, and that, you know, if there is a god out there who maybe created everything, in some way, he is meant to serve me.
Jason Craig (15:11.95)
And then his greatest failure though is if he doesn't. If these things don't work out, if life becomes difficult. the problem with the moral therapeutic deism is that when it doesn't work, rejection of God is pretty easy. Because if his job is to be ordered towards my happiness and my welfare and I find myself, I don't know, on a cross, then he's not very good at his job. So I'm going to reject him, right?
Excuse me. It becomes very, again, he becomes almost like a cohabitating boyfriend or something, right? Where he's like there when it's good, but then we can part ways if it doesn't work out.
Dr. Jared Staudt (15:56.312)
And here's the crazy thing about that is God came into the world and rather than presenting himself as like a glorious king, he presented himself as a slave and he performed even a slave's work at the Last Supper, stripped himself down and he washed the feet of his disciples, which was the most menial thing to do, which is why Peter originally says, no, you can't do that. God.
coming in the flesh and emptying himself completely and serving me. So God does wanna be my servant, but not like a genie in a bottle, right? And the self-giving of Jesus Christ is actually meant to enable me to do the same, right? What I have done to you, so do to one another. Like that's the goal of Jesus' service is to enable us to love and to serve as Him.
because that is the way that the deepest longings of our heart will be fulfilled. But we say, no, no, I just want whatever my longings are, like God can conserve those things. And that's actually the problem because when we think about people today wanting God to fulfill their longings, we say, well, yes, yes, except the human heart is evil.
Jason Craig (17:15.756)
And we don't even know we're masters of self-deception.
Dr. Jared Staudt (17:18.68)
follow your heart. And I said, well, what does the Bible say about following your heart?
Jason Craig (17:22.978)
Well, I remember, so I've always been, you know, since at the time of the AI, which was in like, what, that was 09?
Dr. Jared Staudt (17:31.822)
A little bit after that, yeah.
Jason Craig (17:34.914)
Just the language and the flair of catechesis and formation, because I'm a father and we work with fraternists, I'm thinking about these things. So I love reading older catechisms, not just for the sake of, more than, I'm not talking about just the Baltimore catechism, just the way we communicated things. And it's fascinating by about the 80s, the way we started communicating.
especially 80s and the 90s, is exactly what you're describing of God will be there to serve you. But what that means is you're essentially your self-esteem, material prosperity, fulfillment. there's something about, you know, there's complete lack of the words, words like obedience and actually sacrifice and death. it becomes
just personally fulfilling. guess I can't, that sounds like I'm just going in circles.
Dr. Jared Staudt (18:31.722)
And it is personally fulfilling, but not in the way that we understand it. So that's what we need to correct. And the way that I explain the virtue of religion to the average person, I'm just giving a general popular talk is to say, why do you go to church? And you hinted at this already. And we say, well, I go to church because it's what we do, right? Or something like that. Or I want my kids to have values. Or I feel good about myself.
I you don't go to church for yourself. You go to church for God. say, well, what does God need? You know what mean? I'm not going to church to fulfill some lack in God. But what it is is that we owe God the honor and glory that he deserves from us. Like that is something that is due to him. It is just. And that's why the virtue of religion is an expression of justice.
It's not religion is not just like a human institution. That's how people usually think of it today. Right. You know, I mean, we do have to find ways to express it. Right. And that's where the humanist comes in. But there's the core of religion is the recognition that there is a God and that I owe him things. And even in Jesus Christ, right, it's this is the way in which we as Christians express the virtue of religion. We offer the son to the father.
Because what can I really give to the Father to express the debt of love and obedience and reparation that I owe him? mean, ultimately, I can't do very much about that, but God has given us.
Jason Craig (20:17.858)
So you have the need to do it, so he provides you.
Dr. Jared Staudt (20:20.138)
Exactly. On our own, and that's where people ended up doing crazy things. This goes back to those distortions of religion. We recognize that we need something. And when people even see that, you know, okay, the religions that I see before me aren't fulfilling some deep need that I experience inside of myself, well, then that's where they go after all these other things. And this is where Newman actually said that there was no mean between atheism and Catholicism.
What did he mean by that? Either there is no God and then atheism would be right, but obviously that can't be true because nothing would exist if atheism was true. Or the Catholic faith is true and then that is really the only thing that will ultimately fulfill our deepest needs in a genuine sense and our ability to worship God the way that we're supposed to. He said anything else in between atheism and the fullness?
has some kind of internal flaw that will make it fail. And when people experience that, right, that's where they will be in danger of either falling into atheism or some other corruption of religion. And so the way that we think about religion so often today is through this jumbled mess of all these improper expressions of it.
sometimes even in our experience in the church, right? Because we, sometimes we go to Mass, especially in the past decades, right? And everything was so human centered. And so therefore we do think that Mass is about us. Well, now the priest faces me and he tells funny jokes and he's, know, everybody's trying to teach me all these things that are even about my own personal fulfillment and self-expression. And so it just reinforces sometimes even in the church, me, me, me, me, me.
Jason Craig (22:16.088)
So what do you say? think at this point, that's intuitively true. And if people haven't seen that, it's because they haven't yet experienced how disappointing that becomes. I read an amazing article by someone who was talking about being a part of one of the most vibrant youth movements in a big evangelical church in California or something, and how she was researching and tracing her own community and how, and then that.
a lot of evangelicalism, which is built around a lot of like, they're really good at making you feel good at being there, you know, some of them, some of them is just, but, and she was, her research was sobering because how many people once it wore off had very poor foundations of living like longterm as a disciple of Christ. So, but what do you say to those who, or what you're describing could easily be, you know, back to you like, okay, so
I don't need to have a vibrancy of feeling or consolations or an enjoyment or love of God. It's just like, just, got to go pay my debts to God. Like that seems like a, that doesn't seem like the religion of St. John at the cross or, know, these ecstatic, okay, you can answer it. It doesn't seem like the vibrancy of love doesn't love the form of all virtues. And you're just making like, I have to go to church cause I owe God. That seems a little, I don't know, like I'm.
it just being like some rote, you know, box checking Christian that, all right, I paid my debt.
Dr. Jared Staudt (23:54.478)
So the goal of the Christian religion, if we could speak that way, is not paying God what is owed to him. So that is an important expression of these religious acts and of sacrifice. But ultimately, it is about love. But you did a little switch on me there though, because you started talking about feeling, like in consolation. And John of the Cross, of course, is the expert at saying,
that you have to give up those things in order really to have love. So he talks about the dark night. I can't see anything, but I'm simply abandoning myself to God in love. No, but a good example, because that actually helps us to sort this out, because religion is not ultimately about my feelings. I recognize God is God. And whether I feel like it or not, whether I...
think that I'm deriving something out of it or not, which of course you would be through worshiping God, right? But whether I recognize that or not, I do owe him things. He is my God, my creator, my redeemer. Aquinas, when he talks about religion, says that it recognizes God as origin and end. That is the one from whom I come and the one to whom I am going, you know? And so, as religion,
Right? It may be an expression of justice, but it is ultimately ordered towards union with God. And if we just had natural religion, it actually would just be a matter of justice. It would just be, well, there is a God who created me, you know, and He's still my end in so far as my actions and the virtues that I have are meant to honor Him. That's a goal, but we wouldn't really be able to say that we are entering into the life of God.
Jason Craig (25:45.964)
was just natural. Participate in the local pagan sacrifices would have been similar to paying your taxes. Right. This is something we have to do. just works. Right. Just we've got to pay these taxes. But you're making a great point that it's not that.
Dr. Jared Staudt (25:56.374)
It's right and just.
Jason Craig (26:05.384)
When we speak of, do, God, worship. And let's say we're beginning there and not, hey, God's a good choice and Jesus will really fulfill all your magical desires. Or no, your desires for.
Dr. Jared Staudt (26:18.028)
You will fulfill your desires beyond your comprehension.
Jason Craig (26:20.622)
Yes. And whenever I hear that now, I'm thinking, wow, you know, what you're describing, the actual experience of the Christian life is that God does give us constellations when we approach Him. Those graces very often come, especially early in conversions and things. how you in a great spiritual writers tell us this and warn us this, when those go away is actually when you're getting serious, when God pulls.
in a sense those constellations further back. What it causes you to do is like when you're in darkness, you know, what do you do is you reach out.
Dr. Jared Staudt (26:54.26)
And it's not just a matter of justice. I mean, it is in that point. You're saying I'm doing this because it's the right thing to do. But even there, why am I doing these things? Just because it's a matter of justice or just because I'm seeing consolations or is it because I really do love God and I'm seeking him with my whole being? And John and the cross would say in a way you have to have everything else pulled away so that it really can be a pure act of love where you're saying
I just love you for who you are, not for what I'm getting out of it. Not even because I owe you these things, but because you are God and you are good and I am willing to do anything and everything just to honor you and give myself to you. That's the goal. You are the sacrifice in that sense.
Jason Craig (27:39.726)
Right, so it does. And because you're united with Christ, that sacrifice becomes united with Christ. It becomes more more perfected as it's brought.
Dr. Jared Staudt (27:50.284)
And how could I offer myself as a sacrifice to God on my own? Right? We know we have so many sins and imperfections and God is seemingly so far away from us. Right. And so Jesus Christ is the bridge that enables us to enter into the heart of Father. Right.
Jason Craig (28:05.73)
So what is the, I don't know if this has been your experience, but when I was, in the early 2000s, I mean in the 90s, like the Billy Graham Crusades, when you read, I'm sorry, when you hear what the pitch of the gospel was, and even in the ancient world, the...
When it comes to justice and we're getting into like reparation and the fact that we sense and feel this burden of sin You know GK Chesterton said original sin is that one doctrine no one ought to have to defend right that it's the most obvious thing It seems to me and this is my I don't know this is your experience that that is actually a coming becoming harder To communicate where people's longing to make right? Get right with God would have been something you know from the south so that hey you you better get right with God was
That right, as in justice, something's out of balance. Christ paid the way the evangelicals, he paid that fee. So you better make sure you take that check and hand it over, right? That seems to be falling away where people's desire or sense that to say, hey, why would I follow God? Well, to have your sins forgiven. They would go, huh? It's not a motivating factor.
Dr. Jared Staudt (29:26.094)
I don't have any sense.
Jason Craig (29:29.176)
So there was the motivating factor of, just sense that, you know, like Paul and Romans, they can see it from the beginning of the world. They should all forgot Thanksgiving. He's manifested clear in the creation. And then there's the sense of our experience that I am a sinner and I need to be made right. Not just I need to be fulfilled or made whole, but I need to get things right. I'm out of whack. Just like when you feel like I owe my neighbor something. In fact, as you were coming over, I owed Daniel, I think $143 or so.
I want to pay that it's an imbalance I owe Daniels Jared son who helped us edit a book and I owe him money. I want to make that right I want to pay him it doesn't seem. Now like that's a motivating factor anymore that's your maybe it's just the circles I'm in but we.
Dr. Jared Staudt (30:17.646)
We could characterize this even as the modern worldview has been, people say disenchanted or demystified or anti-sacramental in the sense that, if you look even, my favorite historian is Christopher Dawson, talk about him all the time, but when he looks at prehistoric or aboriginal cultures, he shows how they're very similar. They had a very spiritualized view of the world.
They didn't understand natural causalities and they attributed everything to a kind of, you could call it divine causality, but that might be different kinds of spirits and things like that. We have now swung to the exact opposite extreme. Well, you know, we can explain everything without God. And this even goes back to the moralistic therapeutic deism. Deism is this absence of God. I mean, the universe is a self-contained unit.
that is governed by physical laws. And those laws now can even explain the workings of our brain and our emotions. And so a lot of people would say even these feelings of guilt, well, this is really just some kind of holdover from previous times. And you just are responding to natural stimuli here and blah, blah, those kinds of things. I would say that
Yes, with this kind of pseudo scientific worldview, I say pseudo because, you science doesn't really, you know, chase God away. It's our own misunderstandings of the scientific worldview that do. So the pseudo scientific worldview that's been overly psychologized. And now even you have the, you know, the dominance of technology over our lives, which makes
probably divine causality even seem farther and farther away. We're in our own, not just the natural world with its own laws, but now we're in this artificial self-constructed world with its own laws and dynamics. And it just makes God feel farther and farther away.
Jason Craig (32:26.454)
Yeah, well, guess even you just said it great. What is the technological order, you know, is that that in frame or that that it's in the box, it's in the box in the realm of our control. And therefore, the deficiencies of whatever we living before is that we weren't in control of it yet. So why not upload the mind to the cloud and then be fully liberated from the constraints of things that are harder to control or explain, you know, stuff?
And you're right, the purpose is that Neil Postman, the therapeutic anyway, he talks a lot about this is a therapeutic society. The purpose of everything. And this is related to the deism. The purpose of everything is to make me feel better about my problems. And the best way to feel better about your problems is to explain them not to be problems. Right. Right. So if your sins are really just you wrestling with
an unnecessary guilt complex in that if you can just overcome that deficiency, it doesn't involve, maybe you should repent to someone or God. Everything is ordered towards making you feel better about those. It's therapeutic in that sense. So not that there isn't need for actual therapy, right? For actually helping or the psychological studies or mental health, but that ultimately though the purpose of of Netflix or my psychologists or
God himself or my church or everything is to make me feel better about my problems, which is very different from I have a problem. I have a debt I can't pay. So it really takes it completely out of justice has nothing to do with it. Is why would
Dr. Jared Staudt (34:10.39)
And justice itself doesn't make a lot of sense when everything is ordered towards me. Even our understanding of politics, in a way it's more Machiavellian than ever in the sense that I don't know if we have an understanding that the common good is necessary for us to achieve our own good. We tend to view the state as simply an agent for achieving individual rights and securing them and protecting them. Not.
that I need to grow in virtue by serving a good that's greater than myself in community with other people. Do I need other people or are they simply a burden?
Jason Craig (34:53.656)
That's a really good question. I? Because we don't think.
that this this topic of burden and do I need other people and all these things that gets into justice. What do I owe anybody? Right. And the goal would be to not owe to feel no obligation. Right. I mean, isn't that the
Dr. Jared Staudt (35:12.29)
think we do feel that way. What do we owe our parents? In some ways, you know, young people can even curse their parents and say, they're the ones who got me into this mess. Yeah. And but there isn't a sense that I owe something to my parents. There isn't a sense that I owe something to my country. This country, fatherland, right? Don't speak of fatherland any longer. So you're smart.
Jason Craig (35:27.512)
So why then does it?
Jason Craig (35:31.918)
You just want all these realms of justice, but we, hear that word all the time, right? Social justice or, or not in the Catholic, but in in the public world, justice for this person, justice for this group. What do they mean by that? That maybe you're not saying, cause I hear the word justice a lot. And then it sounds like we're saying, well, no one cares about justice anymore. It seems like that's all they care about.
Dr. Jared Staudt (35:52.238)
It's very ironic because the justice even of family members, which of course we would want to say it's love, but on a fundamental level, no, there is justice to honor your father and your mother. That is right and just, just like worshiping God. know, it's right and just. Because... similar to the reason of God. Yeah, we owe our existence to them, right? And so it's an honor. It's a matter of piety. So the social justice movement...
Jason Craig (36:07.991)
Why is it?
Dr. Jared Staudt (36:21.848)
doesn't usually focus on actual relationships. And I would say it is related to individualism. I find my meaning in being able to stand against the whole, more like maybe even against my family, against my country, to stand up for these people.
who do not have their individual rights respected. And so really it's just more a matter of this individualism. Like I am choosing to associate myself with this marginalized group rather than the people that I'm actually bound to as a matter of justice. And so it does become, I mean, we do have a sense for justice, right? That things should be right. mean, justice in a way is a balance.
equalizing things out so that there isn't a debt and one side's not lopsided. And why do all these young people think socialism is a good idea? And I think we could sneer at that. Socialism promises equality, and equality is justice. Now, we would say, okay, but they aren't respecting the difference of natural gifts. They're not respecting private property. We could say all these things, but at the end of the day, there is an
instinct for justice there that is good, it's just misplaced.
Jason Craig (37:46.69)
Yeah, I think actually that if you don't have sympathy for modern young Marxists, I don't think you spend enough time with them because they actually do have they've experienced a lot of them, whether they maybe they're just, you know, from super wealthy, you know, home and they just went to college and got brainwashed. But my experience, a lot of them are drawn to actually really feeling a sense of imbalance through the suffering of other people.
And they at least have a intellectual structure provided through through Marxism that helps them fight for something. It seems a lot better than, let's say, the other extreme of a libertarian upbringing of my ultimate freedom is to know is to owe no one. And no one owes me. And we're all on our own. And the more we leave each other alone in that fact, the better. Right. Would clearly be Marxism. I mean, I have no problem saying.
Dr. Jared Staudt (38:37.196)
which is closer to the truth.
Dr. Jared Staudt (38:41.934)
You might say socialism, maybe not Martin.
Jason Craig (38:44.398)
There's a reason it becomes attractive. mean, you know, well, that might be a whole other topic, but there's a reason it becomes attractive to stick to the justice thing is that they perceive an imbalance that they would like to make right. That's one thing we didn't actually define justice at the beginning. And you just said it. It's it's actually a necessarily Christian understanding of virtue because we're saying the source of our equality is God. That doesn't mean sameness, but that before him were equal.
And for me to create an injustice or to create an imbalance of justice, you know, I think the way Aquinas would describe, I have to actually take something from you or lift myself above you, which is the same as taking something for some. The imbalance is created in some way, and it can be somewhat innocent the way someone might do something very kind and noble for you. And you might say, I now have a debt of gratitude that person and their goodness created an imbalance.
that I would like to balance out by saying thank you, right? So thank you isn't just being nice. Like gratitude is actually, I think that's actually what St. Paul says when he says they recognize God and didn't offer him gifts of gratitude.
Dr. Jared Staudt (39:54.796)
You know, the the Latin word for justice, very similar to English is Eustitia. And Aquinas defines it, drawing from Cicero and others is just rendering the debt to another, you know, giving to another what is owed to him. But there is a word that Aquinas uses that we translate as right. And I think it's very misleading for modern people. It's just use. Right. I US use and it's
Eustitia is like the response to that, right? I respond. So what would use be? It is something that I recognize that another possesses that I need to respond to. And so we might say like human dignity. That's like a use. And you can say, what's a right? No, human dignity is not a right, right? But it's something that I am honoring that I'm responding to. And a use could be a kind of debt, right? That there is a debt that is another. So out of Eustitia, I respond to that.
And so I think young people want to respond to what they see in others. But I think the modern world is just such a tangled mess because in the past, when you were rooted in a community, everybody knew that there were certain people that needed help.
And there were even confraternities like in Catholic countries that would even be dedicated to responding to the needs of those people who were, you know, kind of outcast or abandoned. But today, I mean, we might say that there's homeless who are living in big cities and things, but these cities are so large that these people become anonymous and even almost like objectified in that sense. those homeless people living down the street. And so we no longer can respond within our own communities.
And so it almost seems like we have to be about some kind of social justice movement.
Jason Craig (41:47.426)
Because I that becomes more of advocacy. It's abstract and I don't owe.
Dr. Jared Staudt (41:49.89)
Yeah, and it's abstract. There are people out there somewhere who need help.
Jason Craig (41:55.83)
Yeah, I even, I mean, when I, I am a convert and I have just always loved the New Testament, right? Which is an over and over. I am amazed at how we don't read the obvious lessons of it of if you want to know what God wants you to do, look around. There are likely persons that need your help, right? And there's that obligation, especially we have received so much from Christ.
to make sure that we either make sure that no one else is, you know, we wanna make things right now because in the end, God will lift up the lowly and cast down the mighty. So I wanna make sure I'm on the right side of that, lifting up and casting down, right? So it becomes obvious. But when I get like appeals for even my local diocese, and I wanna be careful, I'm grateful for a lot of this work, but I don't wanna make any enemies and injustice here.
But when I hear the abstracted charity and justice of give your resources so that we can help this group of people, there's a goodness in that. And the church has done that for a long time. The deacons of the early church gathering up resources to the, like we can, we can pool our resources to do greater good for greater groups of people. But the problem can become, that's how I do charity.
Dr. Jared Staudt (43:18.457)
Drop it off over here.
Jason Craig (43:19.506)
I drop it off over here. It'd be similar to I will offload the formation of my children. I will offload. It's like almost like again, that individualism of the highest good is to dis dis burden ourselves from the burdens that we might owe our parents. I want I want them in a home as soon as possible so I don't have to take care of them, which injustice.
Dr. Jared Staudt (43:36.882)
And how often does Paul talk about taking care of widows? Right. I think how many widows or widowers are there in our Catholic parishes? You know, that maybe they're coming to daily Mass. Maybe they're no longer able to come to daily Mass. there's something very concrete in our own communities. And it's not people aren't rallying together to say, let's take care of all the widows. You know what I mean? They're probably going to be campaigning for somebody across the world.
Jason Craig (44:03.66)
And while that's obviously charity, I do, and we make it, I think people are wrong to think it's a reduction of goodness to call justice. Charity goes beyond justice, but justice is really good. It's a really good baseline and you don't want to be on the wrong side of that. But you were just mentioning in our own community, in the past, it's hard because we're not formed to think in this way.
that the community you come up in, you owe. Like you owe them. We have inverted it. mean, and it begins even in the family that the, know, a child growing up in the family in the past would have felt an obligation as soon as his strength was capable of helping out because he sees and knows, not abstractly, right? But he sees and knows the work and the sacrifice that's going on and out of justice.
Right? He would have had a sense that I better pull my weight. Whereas today, I mean, I hear even the way we describe it as well. You know, my parents weren't they never they never supported me in this or I never felt supported in that. And I hear you. Maybe you weren't encouraged in one of your interests, but did you support your family? Like, there's no sense that a child should be his primary purpose. The primary purpose of the members of the family is to support the family.
We inverted that the family is there to support the individuals in their pursuits. So when we talk about within our own community, the best way to de-abstract charity is actually to, if you felt, I think your average guy, your man, if he felt like I owe these people, I bet he'd pay the debt better than, when you feel real good and charitable, go do good things.
Dr. Jared Staudt (45:50.604)
And I know there's a bunch of people too that tell me, well, yeah, I really want to support the church, but you know, we're just not able to because we have all these financial demands and these are people who are wealthy, who are saying this, you know, it's not like they're literally destitute and can't pay their rent. No, they own large houses. They have nice cars and they're like, yeah, I just can't really afford that. There's just so many demands. And I know, that's an Aquinas actually says that tithing is an expression of the virtue of religion. Right.
Jason Craig (46:12.046)
and pay it later.
Dr. Jared Staudt (46:20.654)
And so we could look at this in number of ways. It's not just going to mass. It's not just even fulfilling the precepts of the Church, although tithing is a precept of the Church, right? But if we really thought, what do I owe God, like in the broadest sense? What do I have that I have not received from another? Right? Is there anything?
Jason Craig (46:43.47)
We live in a constant state of debt. mean, that it really changes. I am a constant state of debt. I'd like you to talk more about the tithing because it was fascinating to read in the sum of the difference between generosity, which is what I think a lot of people think with tithing they're being and we even use it in our language. Be generous. Whereas that would that is not the Catholic sense. It's always giving is that's all. Rosity that I don't owe you this. I'm going to give it to you. And although
Dr. Jared Staudt (47:08.248)
homesgiving is generosity.
Jason Craig (47:13.772)
You know, we got in a debate, think, with a friend or emails. And even the sense of generosity in some moments of the church has been articulated with like, no, you owe the poor that God has given you. You owe them. But don't get distracted there. OK, the tithing thing. It is an act of religion tied to worship. And for Aquinas, it's basically Catholic worship ain't free. Right. I mean, there's there's things sacraments, a sacramental world has.
things involved with it and to not tithe and to go to church is to be a pretty bad freeloader, right? And to cause an injustice.
Dr. Jared Staudt (47:54.168)
Let's look at this in terms of worship, right? I mean, it could seem even tacky to pass the basket around during the offertory, right? You know, we're about to worship God and, you want me to get my wallet out at this time in the liturgy and like put money in, but what's going on in the offertory? I actually view it as our sacrifice because the, the Eucharist, right? At the moment of consecration, that's the sacrifice of Christ. And of course we're invited to.
fully pour ourselves into that so that his sacrifice becomes our sacrifice too. But what's happening at the offertory? Bread and wine don't fall out of the sky. You can't find bread or wine in nature. We have to make them. Now, a lot of times it's religious who are making them for us, but nonetheless, this is what we bring. We have to procure these gifts. And I think they even represent all of our work.
all of our effort. And we even say the work of human hands, And the new mass, right? The work of human hands. So this is what we bring. And I think this is the time that we don't just offer up the bread and wine, you know, because at that point, they're bread and wine, like, God, we're bringing this bread and wine to you, we're offering it to you. But we are offering our own intentions, our own selves, so that they can be drawn up in the sacrifice of Christ. And that's why we pass the basket round at that moment. Because it is
expression of religion. It is an act of worship to say, I'm not here just to give you this little smidgen of my time. And some people even speak of prayer as a tithe of time, which it can become. But I am here also to offer you some portion of my earthly goods. Like I'm a sacrifice that actually makes these goods holy, right? That's what sacrifice means.
Jason Craig (49:25.282)
Right.
Jason Craig (49:45.966)
Also, because I owe you.
Dr. Jared Staudt (49:48.678)
Yeah, and Aquinas, so it's not just, I owe this to God because that's true. So I'm taking a portion of what I have earned of my own work and I'm dedicating that to God. You know, a tithe literally means a tenth. And so in the Old Testament, there was a literal tenth that was required. The first fruits, you know, of the harvest and of the flocks, right? That was the tithe. But when I do that now,
the whole of my possessions and my work can be sanctified through that offering to God. It's not just a portion that I give, but it's actually blessing the entire part of it. But it's also, as you said, a recognition and justice that if I'm a member of the body of the church and the church is serving my spiritual needs, you know, that we have a parish and I receive the sacraments, you know, I was just reading Philomon with my kids this morning.
And here we have.
Jason Craig (50:49.742)
Because you wanted to read an entire book of the Bible.
Dr. Jared Staudt (50:52.512)
Exactly. Well, we read a whole book today, but it is on justice and actually in what goes beyond justice because you have Anesimus, the slave who runs away. Right. But Paul actually baptized Philanin, right? so, and then Anesimus runs away and he's baptized. And Paul says, yeah, you know, I want you to free him. And I know that there's costs associated with that, right? I mean, there is an economic cost of a slave.
He says, you can put that on my account, but just so you know, you owe your whole existence to me. Your whole life has been given back to you through baptism. That's what he's referring to. And so in that sense as well, where would we be without the priests who have been given to us by God and without the sacraments that they have offered to us?
Jason Craig (51:44.472)
And I think that's what Aquinas says, right? They're paying you something you can't give yourself. So then you have to pay them back. And that sounds like, I think to our modern ears, like Simon and your son, like you're paying for holy things. And I would say, no, it is that our worship is tied to an actual offering. And then we would like to offer what we have. So we do have this in our disposal. And the purpose is not to make them, to enrich them.
Dr. Jared Staudt (51:49.582)
Yeah.
Jason Craig (52:14.126)
That would be, I don't know, generosity or spoiling. We're actually just talking about justice. owe. So if we treasure the spiritual good that they give us, we want to pay back in means that make sense for us. And we have economic reality that we're going to offer that. And maybe if there was a time where we had more than money, where we actually would be offering our crops, the bread, the grapes for all of that. But also people like to have beautiful liturgy, right?
comfortable building with air conditioning and there's just a reality that this is a good this is not just hey we pooled our resources and we like our little our holy club here this is something this is a service being offered to me and nobody would have a service render you know someone who a plumber who comes and does something you can't do for yourself because you don't understand plumbing he comes and he fixes it you wouldn't just give like well you know if I decided to be generous maybe I'll pay him for that
Right, and I know this sounds sacrilegious to compare plumbers and priests here, but there's a relationship to that is the service and the work. The priesthood is work, right? It is, the liturgy is their work and they're doing that work on our behalf and for us and oriented towards us and giving us sacraments and we pay them.
Dr. Jared Staudt (53:30.848)
And it's not only to support them, but as we said before, it is also to support the charitable mission of the church. Paul, when you really read his letters, it's amazing how much he actually talks about collections. He does. And it's not only like... He does speak about the need to support ministers. He the labor deserves his due, he says, even though he himself refuses to take any payment.
Jason Craig (53:46.219)
Great length, actually.
Dr. Jared Staudt (53:56.706)
which is amazing in a way he's even representing like the religious of the church and their absolute poverty, right? So he supports himself, but he says, it is just to support your ministers. But, you know, he writes often about supporting the poor ones back in the Holy land, right? So he takes up this collection for the church, you know, around Jerusalem.
Jason Craig (54:16.366)
So it's not just that you're pointing out that it's not just, we're praying, we're paying for pretty vestments. There is the sense of the connectedness of the church itself. That yes, we will take something from here and give it to the body over there because we're connected and we want to make sure that these things are taken care of.
Dr. Jared Staudt (54:35.022)
And we need to point something out here, at least in the United States, Catholics are among the worst givers. We don't give a lot of our income. And I've seen it because I was actually running a school. And so I would see the financial aid applications and wealthy families were getting like nothing. Because that's part of what we saw in the financial aid application. How much are you giving to the church? Yeah. And it was very depressing.
Jason Craig (55:01.23)
This is related to a huge problem that I had a friend who was on the board directors for fraternists. And he said, and this is really, this was just his observation. He said, at some point we all thought spiritual stuff should be free. And what he meant was that they actually, not in the sense, of course there are people that are, know, that give themselves radical poverty. But it actually, have, it's not that sense. It actually is more of, I'm a spoiled brat.
And that everything should just keep coming to me should be excellent. And I don't want to pay. I'm not going to be. We're using the word generous, but actually we're talking about unjust like and that's why a child who doesn't recognize the generosity of their parents is spoiled. So he demands more with less demand on him. So our religion as we have made it easier and this is part of the religion of oriented towards me, we've made our religion easier. I don't I think by removing the the cost of it.
That's another way of just making it easier on us so that we become spoiled, expecting brats.
Dr. Jared Staudt (56:05.454)
I think that's essential to the American psyche today. But I think there's another element of it as well. And in a way, I think we've been a bit brutalized by the demands of our culture, because it's extremely expensive to live in America. You want to send your kids to Catholic school, especially. my goodness. I you're making a huge sacrifice for that. And just the cost of living in terms of housing, know, cars.
you know, gas, insurance, taxation, I mean, all these things, it can feel overwhelming. And so this is very important in terms of religion. You know, you say you trust God, you say that you believe in him, that he's the Lord of your life. Put your money where your mouth is. Like, do you believe? This is an act of faith and it is a matter of justice as well. But it's both. Do you believe that God will provide for all of your needs, that he will give you your daily bread?
If you do your part, what is simply just? And then by the way, during the season of Lent, we do emphasize almsgiving, which is an expression of charity. Now, whether or not that that, I mean, I would say that can be even almsgiving can be seen as a matter of justice in the sense that what Christian could say, I am a Christian, but I did nothing to help the poor. That's where we were talking about this debate that we had before. Sure. Is it?
Jason Craig (57:24.044)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jared Staudt (57:27.758)
a matter of justice that Christians need to give alms as well as tithing to the church? I would say yes, in a broad sense, right? We owe the poor our support. And it's not a strict matter of justice like tithing is. Let me tell everybody who's watching this, right? If you're a Catholic, it's a strict matter of justice that you must give money. I mean, traditionally it's a tenth. The church doesn't specify that. But I think we really need to pray. mean, anything less than 5 % is, I mean, you're just...
thrown out little bits, you know what mean? So I would seriously pray about that, especially as an act of trust and surrender to God of your finances and your earthly life. But what about almsgiving? And, you know, unfortunately, it's like, you know, I keep track of, here's all my charitable giving that I did this last year so that I can pay less, you know, taxes to the IRS and et cetera. But almsgiving isn't like that at all. Almsgiving is...
Jason Craig (58:09.688)
Right.
Dr. Jared Staudt (58:26.016)
You know, there's somebody down the street who needs food. And so I am taking some of my groceries this week and I'm giving to them. And, know, it's just a totally different thing. Right.
Jason Craig (58:36.024)
So yeah, we're talking, mean, we don't need to put these things as either ors. We have to start at the baseline of justice, right? And then we can ascend to charity because as St. Paul would say, well, a man who doesn't take care of his own family is worse than an unbeliever. It doesn't matter if he's being generous to the whole world, if he's really causing grave injustices elsewhere, which is like what we see in these corporations that hugely exploit human persons over here, but don't worry, they're giving generously over here. So they're balancing out this.
Dr. Jared Staudt (59:04.974)
But on the other hand, so you could take that and say, you know, you have to support your own household first. And we could use that as an excuse to say, yes, but there's all these financial demands, like I've already said, and I just, I'm struggling to take care of my family. Okay. But can you make sacrifices using that in a different sense, but it's related. Can you make sacrifices to be able to make a religious sacrifice? Because that will support your salvation.
and will be better for your kids. Maybe they won't have brand new clothes as often, or you can't have as nice of a car or as big of a house. But where are your priorities? I think that's what we have to think about with the virtue of religion. Is our life actually ordered towards God? Because the purpose of the virtue of religion is to say, I'm going to make these particular acts to honor God. But the goal, we kind of started here and you say, wait, wait, wait, we need to step back. But what is the goal? Aquinas says,
that the virtue of religion can make every other act religious. That is, everything we do can be offered to God for His honor and glory. But that's not going to happen unless we make explicit acts for His honor
Jason Craig (01:00:16.78)
And we would the thing is to your point about it's very expensive to live here. Sometimes I mean, I think we can boil down those things and a little like, okay. Why is your house so big? You know, why is yours is in my I've been there. But my, you know, good friend, Danny Snyder, who's the national sage of return us and he's, know, just kind of like a, you know, like all American kind of guy and his kids are in sports and he's in Nashville and he.
When we do things with fraternists, we go to the fraternist ranch or something, which is we keep doing the surveys. We're always trying to stay like 40 % under the average summer camp costs. It's very affordable, but we deal with a lot of families that have a lot of kids. So it gets expensive. And he hates that conversation because he lives and breathes in the world of sports. And he says the hundreds of dollars a month, the thousands of dollars, the camps, what people will offer to their religion.
That's not how he puts it. But he said, can, you your money is where your heart is. They will they will spend extravagantly on things that are not necessary. And we're saying if we're talking about justice, that actually your religion is necessary. Your acts of religion is necessary on you. And then everything else becomes, as said, becomes religious in that.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:01:35.928)
for you.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:01:41.228)
And I think there is something very American about the fact of saying, well, I do believe in God. I do accept him as the Lord of my life, but I don't need to follow that up with concrete actions. You know, maybe I'll miss church to go to a sporting event, which is a grave, a grave act of injustice. And I don't actually need to give my money to God because he, well, he has my heart. Well, it's like baloney.
You know what mean? you can say, well, he has my heart. But if you really did love him more than anything else, you would act upon that.
Jason Craig (01:02:17.826)
your faith, it's going to be embodied. It's going to actually have, you know, tangible actual effect on the way you live your life. And it comes down to for us as man, a lot of us, are in, we have a lot of influence on the economics of our home, how we use our money. We have a lot of power there. And to just deny that reality, think it's, know, Mark Barnes is also like, it's like this sacrosanct line. You're not allowed to talk about my money.
You can talk about my heart and my faith in forming my kids, but you will not talk about my right. It's like this. And that's where we're going a lot on tithing here, but that's where people can think it's optional to tie. So, all right. That being said, let's set aside money now that we've made up, you know, offended people. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. Challenging. That's the word is the formation. So as fathers,
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:03:09.997)
Challenge people.
Jason Craig (01:03:18.648)
You know, as you know, I'm a first generation Catholic raising children. What does it look like for us? hear when I hear and read in the world of like families, especially like in the evangelical Protestant world I was in and even Catholic world. It's like they're wanting to motivate their children to keep the faith right to go to mass. What does that look like? Just in our our households and our families to sort of
view our faith as an act of justice. Obviously not, not, when we say that, we hopefully we've explained in the pot, it almost sounds like, just checking the box, but no, how do we form our families to have the virtue of religion that they sort of understand, their, their obligations towards God and one another.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:04:09.74)
Kids will see what their parents prioritize. And I think, well, you mentioned Christian Smith, of course, with Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. He has other books like Young Catholic America. He has a report that came out of Notre Dame on Catholic religious parenting in America. So it's not that exact title, but it's something like that. And he gives evidence that if he basically even lays out these different pathways.
right? You know, things that you can do to ensure that your children, to the best of your ability, will continue the practice of faith. And he said that there's three things. The first is not just that we're showing up at Mass, but he says it's mentorship, something that I know is very dear to you as a fraternist. But he says, parents have to be mentors because
He said there's a lot of mentors that can be out there, you know, but he says it's not the priest or the youth minister who are the primary ones. And he said in all of his research, they're not even the ones that show up as having the most influence, right? His parents. And so parents have to view the transmission of the faith as like an apprenticeship, that they need to be trained up. And yes, there are boxes to check, right? We've got to say that in pejorative sense, but on the other hand,
There are certain things that you need to make sure that you are doing. And going to Mass on Holy Days of Obligations without fail is something that we need to ensure, but beyond that. Christian Smith gives an example of how parents mentor in the faith. He actually has a whole nother book about this, which I can't remember the exact title of it, but it's... There's so many of them, right? But it's just having conversations.
Jason Craig (01:05:55.394)
Poor GavCam and Minion is titled.
Jason Craig (01:06:02.382)
about faith. I was hoping you were going to say that because when we say, I have experienced what is the, all right, we're going to check the box and go to mass, but then the guidance, the mentoring, especially of the father becomes laissez faire. So when I say check boxes, I actually am thinking of the failure of the relationship to be engaged in conversation.
And when I talk to men and I'm always asking people because you know, I care about my children. I love God. I do love God and I want my children to love God. And I can I know the data right. We're kind of geeks in this room like I know that. Hey, just because you're homeschooling or just because you're going to this mass or that mass there's actually that's not the only factor. And he's right. The fact when I as I talk to men having the right conversations at the right time and continuing to help children understand.
and articulate their what's going on in all of reality, their life with God, their life with is necessary. So I don't know if it makes that like you go to church and then you're mentoring them. But the men that I know, I'm talking about the men that have adult children who are both still practicing, but also have a strong bond with their parents. That's a common theme that the strength of the bond is maintained and that they are
actively guiding their sons and daughters, the particular stages of their life, not just trying to give them all the information. But as we talk about, I like to think about it as it's not actually information, it's initiation to bring them into more and more of the active life is a form of mentoring, just like you would do at work. Hey, come next to me. I'm going show you how to do this. That's that is actually when I say the checkbox that
The other thing I've seen is the Laze Fair, where we're going, we're around good churchy people, we're going to the potlucks, we are going to mass, they're serving. But that's we don't have a lot of times, but you actually have to continue that conversation in the form of explicit mentoring with the kids.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:08:16.238)
Absolutely. The second thing he says in that pathway is then getting them involved in like educational things, youth ministry, those kinds of things. But he's very clear that that's not one and mentorship to mentorship is one. And then those things support the mentorship because I think a lot of times we think, well, if I just get them into a Catholic school or Sunday school or youth group, that that'll do the job. And he says, Nope, it's number two, not number one.
Jason Craig (01:08:45.837)
And that is super common with, um, when I was first hired as a youth director, a sin I've repented of, um, I, sorry, pause, make sure they were recording. When I was hired as a youth director, I look back now and realize that people that were most interested in getting that youth department going were the people that were really struggling with their kids. So they, a lot of times they think of it as, as the primary thing, if they're just a new group in their, that
First one is not.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:09:16.174)
almost like Catholic daycare in that sense. And then the number three thing, which I think comes back to that mentorship of the parents is he said, experiencing the faith in daily life. And that is daily prayer. So if we're going to talk about the virtue of religion, how can the kids learn that? Pray in the home every day. You know, so I mentioned that we were reading Philomont today, right? But we pray morning prayer and then do Alexio Divina.
as a family. And then in the evening, we pray the rosary and just have some night prayers, kind of an abbreviation of the actual of Compline. And so that's what we're doing. So we're praying in the home every day. but they also, you he mentions, you know, friendships and other things to say that this is something that isn't just a Sunday thing. You know, so yes, maybe Sunday is the height of our expression of the virtue of religion offering.
to the father, his son. I mean, yes, that is the eye to the virtue of religion, but that's not it. And so it's really shaping a Catholic life in the home. And there's a lot of different ways of doing it, but it really does make a difference so that they don't think, well, faith is over here at church, and then the home is in a way secular, right? I mean, because Pope Benedict defined secularism as living as if God did not exist.
He called it also practical atheism. You can go to mass every Sunday and say that you believe everything that the church believes, and then you could still live as if God did not exist and the rest of your
Jason Craig (01:10:54.37)
Yeah, so these three things to make that it would be, I mean, I guess that's obvious, but we need to just say it. The exact, not just the example of the parents, but the teaching of the parents. So they have to have some competency in articulating their life and God.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:11:12.226)
They are the leaders of the faith life of their children.
Jason Craig (01:11:15.426)
which is not driving them to things.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:11:17.9)
Right. It's part of it. But it's not the essence of it. Right.
Jason Craig (01:11:21.474)
I guess we'll say that's the second thing. And to make that less programmatic sounding, mean, the way I've come to understand it within fraternists, because a lot of times this happens, but the, I'm thinking about in human development, I'm thinking of the risk of education, Josani Giuseppe. He talks about that as you get older, when you're young, you just receive what your parents tell you is true.
because they're giving you food and you're alive and they like everything just seems true. And then in adolescence, we think about it as like rebellion, but it's actually not rebellion. It's where, okay, my life is becoming more social and public and I'm now taking these truths and banging them up against reality and seeing if they hold together. And it's in that stage where the mentoring becomes critical. And a lot of parents, they might either not be doing the guidance here or they're actually not careful to select and build the bridges.
of their children to the mentors. So then they might, for example, send their kids off to the world to be mentored by anybody versus ensuring that I know my sons need like to know people so that as I T and as they're getting older, this becomes more true. I can say something like, can you imagine Mr. Stout doing that? Can you imagine Mr. Tafaro, our shared neighbor, doing that? Can you and
Having those mentors, that relationship is critical. I'm blown away. I've known it intellectually, but I'm watching it unfold. So we're forming them and teaching them. The mentors are there, especially during the stage of development when they're banging the truth up against reality, seeing if it holds. And then that lives life. We're going to say it's the family, the shared way of life. And that last one sounds like it's when it cements into what you would call culture.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:13:14.498)
Right.
Jason Craig (01:13:15.468)
lived actual reality that we can presume upon and live and be be firm in those kind of things all and that's reciprocal they're going to need all those things.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:13:25.77)
And in his report on American Catholic parenting, you know, which I mentioned from Notre Dame, Kristen Smith actually calls the home a culture building project. Yeah, because culture means a way of life. So every family does have a culture. How do you live together as a group of people? What do you prioritize? And, you know, coming back to the virtue of religion, it's, you know, it might be something that we only do 10 % of the time. And that's pretty robust, right?
Jason Craig (01:13:36.654)
what is there.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:13:54.702)
but it's the top of the pyramid. And obviously you sleep a third of your life away. So even that's the base, but the most important things are at the top. Everything else kind of points towards those things.
Jason Craig (01:14:07.372)
No, that's excellent. I I had just really good mentors when I first became a Christian and they they said, if you don't pray every morning, you won't stay Christian. That was just like their simple message. Sure. That was ingrained in Katie and I, my wife. it's as our so we've maintained that. And now, but it's awkward at times because then kids start waking up and ruining everything, which is their habit. And but now we have a critical mass of older kids.
So as the younger kids waking up, this is totally different from when our family was mostly young. There's like a silence in the home that they tiptoe into because then somebody will start talking and you can just say, they're still praying. So we don't do a shared in the morning. We do some shared prayers together, but actually it's just the general sort of holy silence. I'm like, just let me finish my coffee, my prayer.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:15:01.75)
I was going to say, that's so beautiful. And then you said that.
Jason Craig (01:15:05.564)
it's not always pretty. It might be beautiful, but it ain't pretty. But that that yeah, I'm not trying to that's been something for us to see it become a culture. Yeah. And how now that is forming the younger kids. Whereas when they were younger, it's like you're fighting. They're waking up. You're trying to pray and like you got to get up at three a.m. to get ahead of the baby who's like reverse cycling and vomiting or whatever. Anyway.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:15:08.974)
you
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:15:32.59)
It's not pretty as you said.
Jason Craig (01:15:34.446)
It's beautiful, but it ain't pretty. We should make it. That sounds like a good T-shirt or something. We wore T-shirts. All right, Jared, any last words?
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:15:42.476)
Yeah, I would say that as Catholics, there's a lot of reclaiming that we have to do, that we are being raised in a very secular culture and in a way that affects our thinking, it affects our habits. And the virtue of religion, the reason why I even chose this topic to write for my doctoral dissertation, and of course, now it's been published, that's what you have here, The Primacy of God.
the virtue of religion and Catholic theology.
Jason Craig (01:16:12.616)
By your own, don't share it. It's very different.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:16:15.158)
from the original dissertation in some ways. But what I'm trying to the reason why I chose this topic is really about where we landed its its culture. You know, Catholic culture is not just rediscovering, you know, flashy things that we hold up, you know, during a procession or something like that. That's part of it. Right. But it really is saying that no matter whether you live in the early church or in the high middle ages or today,
the faith is something that has to be lived. And John Paul II said, if faith doesn't become a culture, it's not fully thought out, it's not faithfully lived. And so we have to make faith into a culture so that not that everything we do is explicitly religious, but it's still motivated by charity and order towards God in the end. I think that's really the goal and why this is a really practical topic.
Jason Craig (01:17:10.05)
You're describing, it's not just theming ourselves with Catholic stuff, but it's actually, that is our shared way of life. And I would agree, I think what you're challenging, and I appreciate you being on the podcast, because I think what we're talking about is we are formed by a culture. think the question is like, which one? So that's a good challenge that we want it to be actually formed by our faith and recognize where we're being formed. So, all right, thank you, neighbor.
Dr. Jared Staudt (01:17:35.566)
Thanks for having me.