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Unbound is a weekly podcast, created to help you achieve more as a leader. Join Chris DuBois as he shares his growth journey and interviews others on their path to becoming unbound. Delivered weekly on Thursdays.
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Today learn how you can create a culture of respect by leading through curiosity.
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Are you a leader trying to get more from your business in life? Me too. So join me as I document conversations, stories and advice to help you achieve what matters in your life. Welcome to unfound. With me, Chris DuBois.
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Dr. Julie Pham is the founder and CEO of curiosity based helping people in teams build trust, collaboration and inclusion by fostering curiosity. She's the author of seven forms of respect, which provides a unique perspective through experience bridging cultures, sectors and viewpoints. Julie has a natural gift for getting people to rethink assumptions about respect, inclusion and communication. And today, we'll hear some of the stories about how this has helped shape organizations for the better. Julie, welcome on, man. Thank you so much for inviting me on Chris. Yeah, this is gonna be a fun one. And
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there's, again, I feel like I say this on a lot of different podcasts, there are so many directions that we can go that this really will be fun. So just like explore the conversation. So let's start with your origin story. So a really important part of my identity is that I am a Vietnamese boat person. I came to the US with my parents when I was two months old, we fled Vietnam. That was in 1979. My father had been sentenced to he had been put in a communist reeducation camp for three years after the war. And when he was released, he knew we had to leave. And so Julie is actually my English name, I actually have a Vietnamese name, which means, which is why Hoon, and that means to remember one's homeland. And my parents gave me that name, because they knew that they weren't going to come back. And so that's a really important part of my identity. The fact that we came here for freedom and that's been a recurring theme in in my life, the my own search for in my and my wanting to help people get that to.
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Awesome. And so let's get into just that. How you are why you decided to found curiosity based? Yes. So.
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So I started well, actually a little bit more about my background is my parents founded the first privately owned Vietnamese language newspaper. So a group with hustlers they were the hustlers among hustlers, I trained as an academic, so I actually have a PhD in history. And as I was finishing up my dissertation, I realized I wanted to go into business, I didn't want to stay in academia. So I came back to Seattle 19. This is 2008, just at the wake of the great recession. And I got my real life MBA by running my family's Vietnamese newspaper. And Chris, you know, what happened in 2008, also, global decline of the newspaper industry, I worked in tech for about 10 years, and, and that last six years of that. And this gets into why started curiosity based AI. I was doing a lot of work bringing together people from different sectors. And I had also by that time, part of my getting my real life MBA was doing a lot of community building a lot of community organizing, getting volunteers to come together. And so what I saw was,
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and I actually think it this is my second real life PhD in organizational development, this, this time, when I saw some people really thrived. And some people have really struggled in this. It was a volunteer program for six months, and they had to go build something. And by the third cohort, it's like, why is it some people are thriving, and some people are really struggling? And what it came down to was curiosity. That was the difference. So the people who are struggling or just, oh my gosh, like I want that we, they were very fixated on a certain outcome. They want it to things to go according to plan. And when things didn't, it was a really, it was really hard. And then there are those who are just, oh, my gosh, look at what we're learning. I didn't know this, we created something out of nothing. And what we saw on teams was that there are a lot of kind of middle people in the middle, who could be swayed. And so we had a critical mass of people who were practicing curiosity that was contagious, and it could uplift the morale. And the inverse is true. If you have more people who are just fixated on an outcome, then it could actually take down the morale of a team. And so Chris, one of the painful things I had to learn was, and I'm sure you've experienced this, having been in the military is like sometimes we try to save people, right? Try to, oh, no, you want to be a part of this. And I spent a lot of time in my early cohorts, trying to save the people who were really struggling until I learned to ask one critical question.
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The question was, do you want to learn from other people here?
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Do you think you can learn from other people here? And if they said no. Or if they said, I don't know. Sometimes they said, it's yes, but it'll take me too long. That's when I was like, Okay, we gotta go.
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you off.
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Because if you don't think you can learn from other people here, then we got to replace you with someone who does want to learn from other people here. Because that I think, is actually the spirit of curiosity. And so that's where I was just get doing that, which is, oh, I don't want to just do this for this program, I would imagine. I mean, I'm doing this with volunteers. Imagine what could happen if we brought this into organizations where people are paid to work together.
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And we spend so much time at work, how we feel at work impacts the rest of our lives. Every other area of our life, we bring that bad attitude home to our family. And so that's why I was just,
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if we can help people feel good at work, then that is that's that's the impact, the positive impact I want to have in the world.
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Right to two things. First one, I think that's what resonated me the most during our pre interview, just that because the whole reason I got into leadership coaching was because we actually get to impact the employees. And so they get to go home and they get to spend better time and volunteer more and like, live better lives. That helps everybody, why would we not want to do that.
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But I want to go deeper on just so I reworded this, I know
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how I would say, but so if you don't think you can learn from others find a new home.
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When you get the thread that sounds like an ultimatum.
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Really, it seems to come down to the growth mindset. And just the individuals who don't necessarily want to learn from others, it's because they believe either they know better, right? Or they're just not willing to put in that effort to learn.
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And, you know, meeting with it was actually because we one of the things about this, about this programs, we tried to recruit people from really different parts in the organization, because we want it as much diversity as possible. So we had people who are super senior with people who are really junior, and people, I mean, the age caps on one, we had someone who's 75 year old, formerly incarcerated, a nonprofit leader, and a 23 year old software Dev. Right. And, and they were on the same team, what we found was,
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more often than not, it was the people who are junior in their career who were much more fixed.
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Which I thought was really interesting. And coming into the program, because this is a volunteer program, that people who are really senior were just, I just want to learn I had to make decisions all day long. I want to be in an environment where I get to be the student.
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Wow, that's a yeah, that is not what you would expect. Because I feel like most teams that I go to people almost want to discount those who are inexperienced, because it's like, they don't realize that, hey, most inexperienced people are coming in with a fresh set of eyes where they don't have any preconceived notions on how something should be done. And so they're, they're willing to learn and bring new ideas to the table. It was here, the junior ones were just like, No, they. And I thought that was really, I thought that was really interesting. They had a much more of like, I want this to be a leadership development program. And I want curriculum that looks like this. And I and it's like, that's not what this is. This is actually much more experiential. This is learning from one another. These are having conversations. And they were just No, this is not what I this is not what I expected, and wanted. Yeah, I wonder if that was, mainly because these individuals were very goal focused. And they had, they were set on that idea of what their ideal situation would be. And they just couldn't move from that where someone more experienced was like, No, I want to see every day like I'm willing to flex. Yeah, and you know, and actually, you know, I've been describing curiosity as a practice. And so, and it's something we do so I think of it more as a verb. And usually we describe curiosity as something we have as a noun or something we are as a as an adjective. And so when we think about curiosity, as a verb, we can actually it's kind of liberating because it means I'm not going to always practice curiosity.
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I cannot always practice curiosity. And, and so there are times Chris, where I'm just like, No, I'm feeling pretty closed minded right now. Like, I just want to tell that person why I'm right. And I'm thinking about that. And that means I'm not ready. I'm not practicing curiosity, and that happens to all of us. And which means none of us are perfect. None of us are doing things right. 100% all the time. Right. And, and so a lot of my work is actually also helping people kind of forgive themselves when that happens, because I think when we can forgive ourselves, we can recognize it. We can actually, it's actually in this trying to be perfect. That can actually hold us back.
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Yeah, I like viewing. I can't remember where I initially read this, like this setup, but people have opinions, beliefs and convictions. And it basically like rose in how strong that feeling is, you know,
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So like an opinion should be pretty weakly held like, you can have tons of opinions. But when you get new information, you change your mind because you learn something. And we should be constantly trying to change those, because that's what's going to develop our beliefs where we have some more experience, and then convictions, which is like, I'm going to die on this hill, right? Like this is something big has happened in my life that tells me this is it. And I think a big challenge in society today is that people are taking opinions and treating them like convictions. And they're, you know, they're willing to die on the hill. But it's something that they just gave you new information, and you're not even willing to consider it.
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And so I love that treating curiosity as a firm, I think is the perfect way. How are you practicing curiosity right now? And like making sure your opinions are the ones that you want to turn into beliefs? Yeah, I love that a finished bullets. Let's go further. I feel we're already different directions.
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So how does your background specifically
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Vietnamese refugee?
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How has that shaped kind of your views on respect and curiosity, taking that one culture and now merging it? Right? I think, yes, I think of I think of respect and respect is being much more fluid. So I think that actually in the in the, sometimes in the US, it's very much black and white winners, losers. I mean, even as a historian, as a historian of the Vietnam War, I see a lot of this, this, this is who won this is who lost. And I think of as much more fluid than that. And I think that my having, having grown up Vietnamese in the US having lived in the UK, Germany, France, and Vietnam as an adult, I would see that we just have different expectations, and it and it changes depending on the context. And so respect, I mean, we talk about respect as if it's fixed in universal as if we mean the same thing. So Chris, I could say, Chris, I need you to respect me, and you're safe. Julie, I am respecting you. And you know, what that assumes, is that we're thinking of the same thing. Now, imagine if I said, Chris, I'd like to be respected in this way, in these forms, that assumes that you want to respect me that you mean to respect me. And I'm letting you know how I want to receive it, which might be different, because we can actually agree on what respect feels like we disagree on what it looks like, and how that and how am I background, my lived experience, my community building, all of that work that I did with people from different different sectors, who have very different came from different ethnicities, different cultures, they all frictions emerge, because we have different expectations. And yet, we don't have a language. To talk about that. All we say is, we want respect. And yet we are not going to that next level of I want respect to look like this. And this is why this is why and that's the next level, not just oh, and I want it to look like this is Vinted be able to explain. And this is why it matters to me. Because if people can understand why something matters to you,
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then they will remember it so much more. This is probably the perfect time to ask about the seven forms of respect. And just getting into that framework. Can you go deeper and just explain it? Yes, yes. So it is a communication and relationship framework. And we can agree on what respect feels like what we disagree is what does it look like. And so here are the these are the seven forms. I've got a little bookmark here. And we use this. We use this acronym pika ppi, CCA, and it stands for procedure, punctuality, information, candor, consideration,
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acknowledgement, and attention. And so
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this is, I always like to say, seven forms of respect, it's more like five level languages, not like Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. So it's not about getting all seven. And some people like, oh, to be respectful, I need to have all seven. No, it's actually about figuring out what are the ones that matter to me, like really matter to me, versus what I think should matter to me.
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Because we've all been socialized to think, oh, respect, should look like this, and I should get this. And yet what we don't ask ourselves is what actually matters to me so much? How we'll do it, even if I know doesn't matter to the other person? Because it's part of how I think of myself. Not not, it's not just in relationship to that other person. Right? How, how often do these kinds of change for an individual, like all the time, because even think about our moods, right? We wake up and we're in a good mood, and we're so much more open to what people might
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some some we might get irritated, like it might be much harder to be to be irritated.
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At all also depends on who we are with. So I've talked about how respect is dynamic and that depends on these three dimensions. The first is hierarchy. The second is give versus get and the third is what
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matters to you. So that first one hierarchy, especially in the workplace, and Chris, you know this because you're in the military hierarchy exists in the world. And there are people who have more power, equal power or less power, even if I am a solopreneur people have more power than me or my clients, people have less power than me or my vendors, right? I could be working by myself. And there's still, whether we're conscious or unconscious about it. And that affects that's going to influence how we think about our expectations around respect. So you know, you asked, How often does this come up? It comes up all the time, and it comes up so
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quickly, we're not even thinking about it, we just feel a certain way. And this is why I say that respect is also contradictory. And for some people, that means Oh, am I a hypocrite, then?
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We're all hypocritical. I mean, how many times have we said, like, do this thing and we don't do it? Until someone else? Right.
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Exactly. I was about to say, so.
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And so it's about naming it. And it's also about asking myself, why am I feeling this way? So that's, that's, so you asked how, how often it changes over time? Yeah, well, in going off the, the idea of there's like constant hierarchy. I think one of the lessons that I learned from working in marketing for a while is that everything kind of ties back to status. Every purchase, you're gonna make everything you're doing, whether it's social status, or your personal status, right? The the millionaire who buys a very expensive car, because he wants people to know he's a millionaire billionaire who lives a very cheap car, it's because he wants the people who matter to him to not change the status there. I think that does tie back to the the hierarchy. And then when you look at the forms of how that actually the forms of respect, right how that influences things, I think it's a very interesting
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time towel, just like that. There's the there's like this, the expectations are uncertain hierarchy. And yet, we all also have our individual choice to, to,
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to have an individual reason. So for example, with with hierarchy of four, I remember talking to someone who said, hey, when, usually if we have to make a decision of who we're going to be late to a meeting with someone who's my boss, or someone who is, who reports to me, it's just like, someone who reports to me is going to understand, you know, someone who's more junior to me, that is going to understand, and yet there was this one person who is very high up, and she remembers when she was very junior in her career, all the senior people would constantly be late to her meetings. And so she said, When I get to that point, I'm going to be really extra intentional about being on time because other people, my peers, they can wait, I want, it matters to me, because that was her early experience. And I just want to be really clear. It's about being able to explain the story, our story, we all have our own reasons. It's not about this is the right or wrong. It's it's just, we all have our own stories. And people usually don't actually even probe into why do why does this matter to me. And so that part of
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some forms of respect is really about practicing curiosity, right. And the first part of practicing curiosity is ourselves. And it is just knowing the seven forms has caused me to be more curious about myself, where with like, acknowledgement, I will happily pass off like not like his team project, I can be leading it, I'm gonna pass the brace to everyone on the team, they did this work, it was all them. But if I ever have someone who worked on something together, or they took one of my ideas, and that they claim credit for it, it bothers me. Like, I don't know, I don't always say something. But it's like you didn't even you could have just said, like, I was talking to Chris. And we did this, but for some reason it really like gets, you know, gets after me. And I do feel like it's a respect issue. Yeah. And yeah, the thing is, Chris, when the question of what matters to you, that is actually the hardest question to ask, because we are battling it with what should matter to us. It shouldn't matter to me that I don't get credit.
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Right? Like for me, it took a long time to admit, acknowledgement is important to me, because it felt a little cringy. And yet, like, if I'm going to be honest, it does matter to me. And so, because the salt, there's also self respect in this, and I have to respect myself to be able to be honest with myself, and like, this is what I need.
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At Can I do that? Because if we can't do that, how do we expect other people to know? Right, same, same boat, it was like, I don't, I don't need people to praise me. I'm good. But it feels really good when you do and like I feel motivates me. So like,
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but then I was like, You know what, I just want you know, acknowledgement is important to be done. It's like, oh, and I just said it. They were saying what we need versus like hoping that people will guess.
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Right? So within an organization, what are some of the ways that you go about like helping a foster curiosity, right, help the team just ask the right question so that they're even just thinking they're in that mindset to think this way. Oh, my gosh, first, Chris, it starts with asking
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In questions, not even asking the right questions, because I actually think that there's no right or wrong question. There's no stupid question 70% of individual contributors say they face barriers asking questions at work. So I actually think we just have a problem asking questions at work, doesn't matter what kind of questions and, and so and we take that for granted. So I hear a lot of organizations that say, Yes, we value curiosity. Yes, we want curiosity, and then I talk to the employees. And it's just Huh, no, we're not. So asking questions. We then I mean, I think the, you know, your leadership coaching is, how do leaders model that? How do they model saying, even just, can you tell me what that acronym means?
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Right, because then it's like, Oh, it's okay to ask that not in A, because you know, there are ways we can be very pointed, and people can feel put on the spot. And yeah, if it's, I remember this professor I had, who was he was, I mean, he was a really big professor, he was knighted, okay, by the Queen. And he would just always ask this, like, these simple questions. And it was like, Oh, thank goodness, he asked, because we all had that question. And so And yet he modeled then, that it was okay to do that. So I think that it does, I think we number one, I think everyone in the org has responsibility.
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Because if you think about, say, a classroom, a teacher can say Be curious, but if they're mean kids in the class, who are bullies, then they can have an outsized influence. So I do think it's up to even peers and
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but leaders can model it by asking questions by,
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by, by even expecting, hey, I'm going to speak last.
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In the meeting, I want everyone to chime in their opinion. First.
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We can even want to one tip I really like is
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to have people rotate who's facilitating a meeting. Because oftentimes, the leader is the de facto facilitator. You can actually have other people facilitating rotate that and take on that responsibility. And then you know what, they also develop empathy for the leader to when they had to do that. Right. Now, I'm even wondering now how many times
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I had one leader in the military who would look around when there was a question propose, and he would just pick someone and say, What would you say to that? And like, just pick people it's kind of identity to show either that. We're not asking the right questions, we need to ask better questions. Some people don't understand what we're talking about in the first place.
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And just doing that, because everybody kind of come back. And let's make sure we are asking different things.
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Yeah, that
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I'm going now, I'm going off on a thought train that we don't need to we don't need to run down.
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The one of the other things I was just thinking of while you were talking was the the idea that if every, so your thoughts are driven by questions, right? Every thought you have it's because you're asking yourself something right? Am I hungry right now will drive a think a thought of going to get food.
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And so I think if you can encourage people to just be asking, asking those questions to themselves, they probably will start naturally. Asking them out loud, right?
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Until actually one of the things because, you know, I've talked about how a curiosity as a practice. And so another, I like to
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so when we're having difficult conversations, I have a structure to help people think through difficult how to have a difficult conversation. And this can be saved for my feedback, right? And usually, that's just, you did this, I didn't like it.
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Now I'm waiting for you to react. Right? And what we can do is we can ask a question, can we talk and sometimes that question is consent. Are you open to hearing more of what I have to say? Or how I feel about that? Is this an Okay, time to talk about it? It could be a leading question, hey, let's say, Chris, you were on the phone the entire time we were meeting and it's bothering me. Hey, Chris, were you checking in with your daughter? Because I know she's sick. And you can say yes or no, but now it's gonna have this initiate a conversation. Versus I just said, you're on your phone the whole time, and I didn't like it. And then that forces you to react and put you on the defensive, asking questions can actually open up this conversation? And here's the thing that I when I'm working with teams,
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because when I show this structure, sometimes there people are like, Why do I have to ask a question when it? I know why they did it?
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It seems passive. I know why he did it right. Then.
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So then, so then I so then I say you've got to ask yourself two questions before you enter this conversation. Here are the two questions. The first question is, do I want this person to learn from me?
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Yeah, I'm gonna like I'm gonna go I'm gonna teach them some things and I'm gonna give these my mind. Second question.
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Am I
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willing to learn from this person?
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Can you honestly say you're willing to learn from this person? And it's okay, if you say, No, it's okay. If you say not now, it's, it's about actually slowing down. So we recognize our emotions, so we don't perform curiosity. So we don't pretend that we want to understand when we're not ready to. And we're just listening for the parts that we're going to convince them that we're right. Because I've done that I've been there, right, where I'm actually not ready. And yet I feel like should be, and I feel like I should respond. And in those times, what I've learned to do, and what I've advise other people to do is it's okay to say I need some time.
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We don't have to respond right away. We don't have to react right away.
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Like that is so I really liked the concept that curiosity can lower someone's guard. Right? Like it, it takes them off the defensive, because most people do want to be heard. And, you know, and
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it almost gives into, like, respect, right? Like, I'm willing to hear from you, because I respect you for really probably tie that to various forms within your seven forms.
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And it shows that we're not going to assume their intention. Right, right. Because then it's just like, I don't know what you're into. And I can't tell you how many times I mean, I've, I've,
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I use this on myself, and I'm slow. And I'm like, okay, okay, well, how do I form the question?
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Most of the time, I am so surprised
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by the answer they've given me.
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It's not what I expected.
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And that's, and that's the part of just like, are we willing to be surprised? Are we willing to learn from whatever? Versus like, I know why they did this?
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Do we really know? Right? Yeah, that was, I think I've run into that battle with my children.
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So for individuals who would want to be more curious, right, what are some of the things they can be practicing like on a daily basis, just something they keep front of mind so that they're actually working on this skill? Listening.
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Listening is really big, especially the more we advance in our careers, the talking muscles more obvious than the listening muscle.
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And so to really practice listening, and as I'm listening, I'm
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trying to understand what is this person saying? Would I be able to recap it back? If I don't understand or even just to recap it back? Just, hey, because sometimes I think I really understand something, and then I play it back. And that's not what, that's not what
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what I understood, and they were sometimes it's just like, the way they explained it, there's just something lost in translation. Right. So I think that listening, even just saying, like, I am not going to ask any questions in this meeting, I am just going to listen for the first time, I'm just gonna let them talk. So that's one. Then there, there is asking questions. And so another practices. Sometimes we have, we have a statement, we want to say, like, we can't afford that.
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That's out of budget. And then how would it be if we reframed as a question?
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What do we need to do to hum? Why does it cost that much? Or are there other ways we can get that? And so it's reframing it as a question then starts this dialogue versus no, we can't afford that.
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So those are just two simple tips. Questions, breed conversations? Yes. And asking yourself actually, that's the before I accused someone else of being disrespectful,
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to ask myself and actually to I actually differentiate between disrespect and lack of respect. Disrespect is intentional. disrespect, is Chris, I know you don't like it, and I did it anyway. Right? Versus lack of respect is I didn't know that matter to you, Chris.
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And you never told me you actually said it was okay. All the other times I did it. So I didn't know. So is it really disrespectful if I didn't know? And maybe even said it wasn't a big deal.
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And so to kind of slow down and go, Okay, well, is this disrespectful? Do I think this was disrespectful? Or was this a lack of respect? And also, why does it matter to me, because I need to be able to articulate it to myself before I can have a conversation with them about it. Because if I can't say it to myself, if I can't explain it to myself, then how can I expect someone else to know why it matters to me?
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I mean, it makes perfect sense.
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All right, I'm gonna ask you another question. Or I hopefully you're equipped for it.
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The rubberband rule? Yes. Could you could you just walk through this for everybody? So the rubber band or if you're watching the video, so the rubber band rule. So this is in contrast to the Golden Rule, which is treat people the way you want to be treated because maybe they don't want that. It's also not the platinum rule, which is treat people the way they want to be treated because maybe you don't want to treat them the way they want to be treated. There are several
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rubberband roll, which shows we are stretchy, we as humans, we can stretch to accommodate. So Chris, maybe you want to be respected in certain forms, and I'm kind of ambivalent, but I'll, I'll stretch for you. And then let's say we're in group settings or at work. And there's some things that our manager really like other people really like. And like, I don't like it. Everyone's praising each other. I think that's so superficial, but I'll do it. And I'm stretching, and I'm stretching, and I'm stretching until one day
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I snap, snap and break, like a rubber band. And so the rubber band rule is about I need to know what my internal breaking points are. I need to know what's going to make me snap. And that's different for other people. Then going back to if I can't articulate that for myself, if I can't
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say that, then how can I expect other people and everyone's rubberband is different? Some people are super stretchy, and big. And other people are like, I'm gonna take little rubber band. These are my boundaries. Cool. It's about knowing that for yourself, and maybe the world brand changes for when you're with your family versus your co workers, because that can change, too.
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Yeah. So as far as like identifying your internal breaking points, are there things you should be doing to like certain questions that you recommend people ask to get after? And why? Why am I feeling what am I feeling? Because sometimes the first thing we say is we're angry. And actually what we're feeling is disappointment. Or maybe what we're feeling is envy.
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Right? There are these other feelings that are like, it's easy, I think it's easy to say I'm angry, which can feel self righteous, right? Like they did this, I'm angry. And actually what we're really feeling is like, I'm so hurt.
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And then to get at the end to get it why. And then I also think it can be really helpful. Once we get to a point we can share this with someone else and kind of talk through it with them, because it's helped me so much to just pause and talk through it with someone else to prepare myself for conversation with the person who, who I had that interaction with.
32:02
Gotcha. Awesome. Julie, this has been an awesome episode. I want to dive into my three final questions.
32:11
First, what book separate from Iran? Do you think everyone should read? So I just finished reading the good life. Lessons learned from the world's longest study on happiness? And I just thought it was I can't remember the author's are two Harvard researchers, 84 year old study hundreds of people, and they say the key to a good life is good relationships. And one of the ways to get at that is radical curiosity.
32:38
Awesome.
32:39
What are the odds they would come up with the exact answer?
32:44
All right, what is next for you professionally? Well, it's to continue growing my growing my small and scrappy team of curiosity base, we are developing a new digital course. And in a few years, I'll work on the book on some forms, respect in the home and the personal life. Right now we've focused on the work and we've been hearing a lot of demand for Hey, I think that this applies to my home life, too.
33:08
Yeah, awesome. Finally, where can people find you so you can find me at curiosity based, that's be a sed.com. You can contact me there. You can also go to the forms of respect.com website. And there's a free quiz free mini book. If you don't want to buy the book yet, you can get the free mini book, there's a free digital course. So lots of freebies. I'm really active on LinkedIn. So please find me on LinkedIn. And also we do lots of short videos on YouTube. So I would love anyone to subscribe to our YouTube content.
33:43
Awesome.
33:45
Thanks for joining me, Chris. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.
33:50
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love a rating and review on your favorite podcast player. And for more information on how to build effective and efficient teams through your leadership. Is it leading for.com As always deserve it
Transcribed by https://otter.ai