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The advice show for creators that tells it like it is. Host Stephanie Woodin takes calls from web creators grappling with the big questions: burnout, branding, revenue, and keeping up with AI and SEO changes. Each episode, an expert guest or fellow creator joins Stephanie to answer your questions with research-backed, practical advice you can put to work in your own business.
Brought to you by Raptive, the full-service creator media company that empowers creators to turn their passions into thriving, profitable brands.
Do you have a question? Record yourself on video or audio, or write it up and email it to ctrlaltask@raptive.com. Anonymous questions are welcome!
Jess Coppom:
When I think about how many crocheters there are in the world, there's a lot of them, but there's not as many as, say, people who eat food or wear clothes or something like that.
Stephanie Woodin:
Welcome to Ctrl Alt Ask, the creator advice show. I'm Stephanie Woodin. Today's episode is all about niche. Do you have a super specific target audience? That can be a great thing, diehard fans who follow your every post, but it might also make you worry that you're too narrow for advertisers. This is the question our creator brought to us this week. So I'm pulling in MaryRay Lombardo, the SVP of advertising partnerships at Raptive. She talks to advertisers all day, every day, and is the expert on web advertising for creators. I'm so pleased to bring her in to give us an inside look at the advertising industry and help creators who have questions around niche. MaryRay, welcome to the podcast.
MaryRay Lombardo:
Hi, Steph. Good to see you. This is so fun.
Stephanie Woodin:
So fun. I love your artwork behind you, by the way. I have to give you a quick shout. That's so gorgeous.
MaryRay Lombardo:
I'd be lying if I said I sit here all the time, but for this fun moment, I thought it'd be a great background for us.
Stephanie Woodin:
Well, it's perfect. So MaryRay, thank you again for joining us. I do this with every guest just to kind of get things started on a lighter note, shake the cobwebs out, have a little fun. For today's, my question for you is, what's the last ad that got you to click on it?
MaryRay Lombardo:
Ooh.
Stephanie Woodin:
Yeah, it's a high bar.
MaryRay Lombardo:
It is, but they get me. I got Zara last night, and in one moment I clicked through and I actually browsed, I made the cart bigger than I should have, so thank you for reminding me advertising works.
Stephanie Woodin:
It does.
MaryRay Lombardo:
They get me regularly, and it was Zara last night.
Stephanie Woodin:
I need to check out their new fall stuff, so thank you for the reminder.
MaryRay Lombardo:
It's getting a little colder, and so I was like, I do need that little jacket, and then one thing leads to another and there you have it.
Stephanie Woodin:
Perfect. Okay, so today's topic is really obviously applicable to what you do every single day, but we have a creator that's called in with a burning question and we think you're the perfect person to answer it. So without further ado, let's watch Jess's question.
Jess Coppom:
Hi, I'm Jess from Make and Do Crew and we run a website that teaches people how to crochet modern projects that they can feel really proud to claim as handmade. Our audience is fairly narrow because of being focused on this very specific hobby, which has gained a lot of popularity lately, but still the number of crocheters in the world is a lot smaller than some other audience sizes. And one of the things that's happened over the last couple years for me, like a lot of creators, is our traffic has decreased for all the reasons we all know, but now I'm sort of wondering what to do about that, and one of the things that I'm considering is if we should broaden the scope of things that we talk about so that we can reach a wider audience. Should we start talking about topics that are related to crochet, but not specifically crochet like knitting or latch hook or weaving, things like that?
I recognize that by doing that, if we could increase the number of people arriving, we would likely see an increase in our ad revenue, which would be amazing. The flip side of that is that if we do that, I'm concerned that we might alienate the existing audience and weaken our overall message. So my question is, should I broaden what I talk about in order to bring more people into our world and hopefully increase our ad revenue? Or do you feel like it's better to stay with this narrower audience, but possibly lose out on advertisers who just maybe don't have an interest in targeting crocheters?
Stephanie Woodin:
Wow, big question. Jess is so fun.
MaryRay Lombardo:
Love Jess's energy, and I think it's a super fair question.
Stephanie Woodin:
Yeah.
MaryRay Lombardo:
Absolutely understand the question, and I think advertisers want engaged consumers who want to be in that experience, right? So Jess acknowledges she's had these crocheters who come to her, who look to her for advice, and advertisers want consumers who are in these engaged experiences.
Stephanie Woodin:
Yeah.
MaryRay Lombardo:
I also heard her say she thinks advertisers might... Not all advertisers want crocheters. Fair point, absolutely, but I bet everybody who comes to her site has a smartphone. So you're opening up to AT&T or Verizon or T-Mobile, tons of really big advertisers. I'm guessing everybody who comes to our site grocery shops, right?
Stephanie Woodin:
And I think that's a great way to get into this idea of what programmatic advertising really is. I think there is this mystery. To a lot of creators who are maybe just first starting out, can you really, on a one-on-one level, break down for us what programmatic advertising is? What is it, Professor Lombardo?
MaryRay Lombardo:
I'm like, I'll try to dumb it down because that works for me too. And it's really simple, it is the automated process of buying and selling digital ads. So it is a machine-powered process where advertisers and publishers or creators, some sort of inventory, are matched through pipes, right? Through a machine. And it allows advertisers to tap in and find their audiences across these websites that match with their creative messaging. And so advertisers really like it because one, it's efficient both in pricing and in activation, and it allows them to really reach the consumers that will resonate with their messaging. So it's been a great evolution in the advertising landscape that allows advertisers to reach their consumers and also allows publishers and creators to monetize every impression on their websites.
Stephanie Woodin:
That's a really perfect way to break it down because truthfully, when I started working at Raptive, I needed a one-on-one because I was like, I've heard this, I've worked in the media business forever, but I've never truly understood this pipeline idea.
MaryRay Lombardo:
We all need refreshers. So many words, so many acronyms, and so yes.
Stephanie Woodin:
Yes. And I think it can be intimidating. So when I'm thinking about programmatic, why do you think advertisers are drawn to creators, whether it's right now or in the history of the modern digital landscape, rather than maybe larger brands?
MaryRay Lombardo:
So I mean, consumer behavior has changed so much over the past few years, right? And the first reason advertisers want creator websites is because consumers want creator websites, right? Consumers love these creator environments. There's a human connection. They feel. They're part of a community. They trust and adore the creator they're getting their first Thanksgiving turkey recipe from. You never forget who helped you cook your first Turkey for your mother-in-law. You can't mess that up.
Stephanie Woodin:
Lauren Allen tastes better from scratch. Shout out. Because she is my go-to Turkey recipe three years running. So yes.
MaryRay Lombardo:
I just made her chicken tortilla soup on Sunday night. Crowd pleaser. Everybody's like, "Do it again, mom, next weekend." So yes, I mean, we are the perfect example stuff. We crave this content. It's what we love, we trust and we are the consumers. We did some research with Nielsen that actually demonstrates the power of creator websites. And so you actually see, you get 40% higher purchase intent when you have a consumer on a creator website versus a mass brand website.
Stephanie Woodin:
That's huge.
MaryRay Lombardo:
And that goes back to the human connection, right?
Stephanie Woodin:
Yeah.
MaryRay Lombardo:
We are more inclined, consumers are more inclined, to buy from an environment they trust, that is authentic, and so it really is fruitful for the advertisers, it performs, and then they continue to renew their campaigns because everybody likes an experience that performs.
Stephanie Woodin:
Of course.
MaryRay Lombardo:
That is why I would say creator websites are really dominating right now.
Stephanie Woodin:
And with websites versus social media, how is that looked at right now?
MaryRay Lombardo:
Social media is terrific and it's not going anywhere. Social media is an important piece of our landscape. Consumers enjoy it. It's a different experience than a website experience, and you use the two for different reasons. So in a social environment, it's a pretty quick scroll. It can be a mindless scroll. When you're on a creator website, you are there to usually do something or enjoy something. So you are spending more time on the creator website if you're cooking a recipe, if you are learning how to build your first fantasy team, of which I'm trying to do this season.
Stephanie Woodin:
I'm impressed.
MaryRay Lombardo:
If you're spending time... Don't be impressed yet. I'm going to have to report back. But you have to spend time on that website learning and relearning. If you are on Jess's site trying to learn how to crochet or learning a new pattern, you need to spend time there, and that has shown a 70% higher ad recall compared to a social media environment. And so the research says people remember your ad when you're on a creator website environment versus a social environment, and so advertisers are really drawn to environments that perform.
Stephanie Woodin:
Yeah, I'd love to see someone's brain hooked up while they're on social media versus long form open web because it is. It's those quick hits and it's like a dopamine hit, but when you're on a longer form, you're more invested. I mean, it's why you're there. You're reading it, you're absorbing it, you're putting your kind of faith in it. The other one is more flash in the pan.
MaryRay Lombardo:
It's a lean in experience. You're an action oriented consumer when you are spending time, you are making a list, you're about to go purchase, and so it's a very actionable audience.
Stephanie Woodin:
And I'm curious, from where you sit, how advertisers are measuring success with creator sites. If they are, they're seeing... I mean, the percentages that you're giving are pretty amazing with the return and the engagement. So what do they look at when they think about success on creator sites?
MaryRay Lombardo:
Well, they look at everything. So sometimes they're measuring brand lift, which means, are people really engaging with their brand and recalling when it comes time to remember your favorite store? Do you remember that it is this retailer versus another? So we are trying to show lift in brand awareness by being in the right place with the right audience. We have other advertisers who are looking to just drive straight engagement with clicks and conversion, and so they might have a very different media plan than the advertisers who want brand lift. We also have people who are looking at trial, driving trial. We have people looking at driving foot traffic in store to a QSR or in store to a grocery store.
Stephanie Woodin:
I didn't even think about the foot traffic idea because we're so digital, but it is, obviously that's a sense of conversion, but in a different way. It's like, are they actually going to go to the next step and come to my store? Which is, that's huge. I feel like this is all kind of funneling into this idea that advertisers obviously care so much about the audiences that they're reaching that they're engaged with creators. How do they think about targeting those audiences? Can we peel the curtain back a little bit on what brands, what advertisers do to find those audiences? If you could just kind of get into that a little bit. I feel like we're getting insider info.
MaryRay Lombardo:
I'm so excited that this is so exciting to you because this is my daily.
Stephanie Woodin:
Oh, I love it. I think it's very sexy.
MaryRay Lombardo:
Yeah. Well, it is kind of amazing. When you look at 226 million people that come to our sites, it's insane. We're a top 10 media company. We reach all these people, how do we find them and how do we match them with the right advertisers? There's a lot of work that we do to do that. So the first thing is, we were talking about it, contextual advertising. So contextual is the content on the website. So that's one area. And we can quickly use our whole portfolio to say, okay, I have a serial advertiser coming in right now who wants to be in DIY content, we look at all of our sites that contribute to the DIY content, of which crocheting can be one of them, and we target the advertising to all of our DIY content sites. So that's one way.
Stephanie Woodin:
Okay.
MaryRay Lombardo:
The next way is audience targeting. I want to reach women 25 to 54 with two kids in the house and a new puppy. We can reach that audience and serve them up some dog food. So anyway, that's audience targeting. And then the third one is unique to Raptive. We've spent a lot of time with our data studio called Raptive Intelligence, and it's where we're using the power of our contextual advertising plus our audience targeting, putting those together and using our AI model, and we call it Mindset Personas.
Stephanie Woodin:
Ooh, fancy name.
MaryRay Lombardo:
Super fancy. We are able to deliver specific personas that work for an advertiser goal. So I'll take one step back. So yeah, we'll just say in its basic form, Mindset Personas is audience plus contextual. What we're able to do for our advertisers is they come to us saying, "We are looking for an auto-intender who has a joyful vibe, and they like to drive around with their girlfriends and take road trips." They describe this persona. We take all of that into consideration with our content, with our audience, we put that into our AI model, and we are able to see a specific audience, a Mindset Persona, and we can call that a joy rider for now, that delivers this auto company, an audience they can't reach anywhere else on the web. And it has been proven that it is more effective in advertising when you are reaching a very specific audience using our first party data from our Mindset Personas with the advertiser inputs.
Stephanie Woodin:
When I think about how can AI be used for good, I'm like, that feels like a great use of it because even though it sounds like a specific person, weirdly, it's universal at the same time. That persona exists, and there's many people who would identify in that way, but it's still getting authentically into the human experience.
MaryRay Lombardo:
Well, and there was a reason I mentioned that 226 million uniques. If we were a site that reached a hundred thousand people, we wouldn't be able to effectively do that. But at our scale, we can use all of that first party data and the advertiser goals and put them all together to reach the right personas, the Mindset Personas, at scale. And that scale piece is critical for driving performance.
Stephanie Woodin:
That's huge. Okay, so we've talked a lot about the industry, what advertisers are doing, I think it'd be great to get back to Jess, who also had her big question, which is, is she leaving money on the table by being so niche as a crochet site? I would love to get your take on what the industry would say to that.
MaryRay Lombardo:
So I would say no, you're not leaving money on the table by being so niche. You are doing an amazing job. First of all, your site's beautiful.
Stephanie Woodin:
It's gorgeous.
MaryRay Lombardo:
And you are being authentic to you and to your brand, and your community senses that. And I heard you say in your question, "Are people going to start to feel like I'm inauthentic if I start to bring in other categories?" And that's where you do your job the best as the editor, as the CEO of your brand. You have to listen to your community, and if your community wants you to broaden out, and if there's demand for expanding categories, then by all means you should do it if it is authentic to your brand. But the way you will continue to attract premium advertisers is by having a clean, engaging site with rich content experiences and a community that is really, really engaged with your content.
Stephanie Woodin:
Yeah, I was going to say, thinking about crochet, and the audience. She was mentioning that there's trust there. Are there other qualities other than the trust and the engaged audience that advertisers are really looking for in creator sites like Jess'?
MaryRay Lombardo:
Advertisers want a clean and premium site when they are paying a premium for advertising. And so the design of the site I think matters. And...
Stephanie Woodin:
That's a good point.
MaryRay Lombardo:
It's because they want the consumer experience to be really positive. And so at first glance, if an advertiser is going to your site, they want to see something that has a great design, a clean experience, really fun and additive content that you came for. I think that's what advertisers are looking for.
Stephanie Woodin:
And you answered this a little bit, but is there anything Jess could do to kind of bump up her site and make it more attractive to other advertisers without sacrificing her niche?
MaryRay Lombardo:
Well, Jess, I think your site is beautiful, and I think that's one of the first things we say to all of our creators is make sure it's clean and designed forward and feels and looks premium. And so I would say keep being you, keep listening to your audience, they are clearly rapt for your content, and so continue to build on that. Give them more of what they want, hear if they want you to expand and keep bringing that authentic, rich, fresh, relevant, culturally relevant content, and it will continue to pay out.
Stephanie Woodin:
I love that. It feels like a takeaway creators could do right now, if they're listening, is just do a little bit of a, look at their site and just say, "Do I look like I'm a premium site? Do I come across?" Would that be a fair thing to say?
MaryRay Lombardo:
I think it's super fair, right? Do you want to be on your site? Do you arrive to your site and say, "This is where I want to be. It's easy to read and it feels premium, and it's bringing me the rich, relevant content."? You and I have talked about some of our favorite creators on here, and we're feeling really good about that.
Stephanie Woodin:
Yeah. The one question I think we maybe didn't get to is the idea that she mentioned, Jess mentioned, "Should I go into content that's kind of like crochet, but maybe just a hair off, like washing sweaters or knitting?" I mean, just different things. Is that relevant to this, or should she just stay on crochet? What's your thought?
MaryRay Lombardo:
Well, I wish I knew, I wish I had the crystal ball for this, but I would say if your community wants to read it, then yes, give them what they want. It seems to me, if you're creating a beautiful sweater on your site, I would want to know how to wash it, right? Or if I've mastered crocheting, then do I want to tackle knitting next? And so I think it's a really good idea if it's authentic to you and that the community wants to come for it.
Stephanie Woodin:
I think that's a great way to end it on a buzzword we hear a lot that's so applicable to this topic, which is authenticity and having that uniquely human connection with your audience. So MaryRay, thank you so much for joining Ctrl Alt Ask. This is one of the most fun conversations, and I could talk about brands and audiences all day, so thank you.
MaryRay Lombardo:
This is such a treat. I can't believe I'm sitting here in headphones and a microphone. I feel like a little Taylor Swift. I'm having my T-Swift moment.
Stephanie Woodin:
We're doing it. We'll go viral.
MaryRay Lombardo:
Yes. Yeah, completely. Maybe I'll get re-engaged to my husband after this, who knows?
Stephanie Woodin:
I love it. I love it. Thank you again, and we will talk to you soon.
MaryRay Lombardo:
Thanks for having me, Steph.
Stephanie Woodin:
For more information on everything we talked about today, you can check out the show notes or visit our website at Raptive.com Slash Ctrl Alt Ask. And you can read more about privacy-first audience targeting in the show notes. If you have a question you'd like to ask, email us at CtrlAltAsk at Raptive.com. That's CtrlAltAsk@Raptive.com.