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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
Cal: On today's episode, we have Peter
Bick, the producer and director of roots.
So deep docu series.
First off.
If you haven't seen it,
you should go watch it.
You should also listen to our
conversation about it today.
We talked about what brought
him to this docu series.
Some surprising findings from it.
And what to do next.
So let's get started with the fast five.
What's your name?
Peter: My name is Peter Byck.
Cal: And Peter, what's the
name of your documentary?
Peter: The docu series is called Roots So
Deep, you can see the devil down there.
And it's available at rootssodeep.
org for anyone to go on our
site and rent it right now.
Cal: Oh, very good.
When did you start making the docu series?
Peter: Well, the team, this docuseries
is about a science project really,
ended up being much more about the
farmers, but the science is at the
core and it is a science project.
The science team got together for the
first time at the beginning of 2014.
And so that's when we started
putting the team together, designing
it, fundraising for the science.
And then in 2018, we started filming we,
we scouted in 2017 to find all the farms
in the Southeast U.
S.
And we finished filming in 2022.
Some of the science continues,
but we had enough preliminary
data to, to share it in the movie.
And so it's ongoing.
Cal: Oh, very good.
And where are the farms
located for the docuseries?
Peter: The farms are in the Southeast U.
S.
There's one farm in Adolphus
in Scottsville, Kentucky.
It's farm pairs, right.
And so that's about 45 minutes
northeast of Nashville.
Then we have a farm pair in Tennessee
and Jasper and Sequatchie Cove, which
is about 45 minutes west of Chattanooga.
And then you go down
to Fort Payne, Alabama.
That's Fort Payne, and then down
in the Piedmont Jacksonville area,
there's another farm pair, and then
Woodville, Mississippi is our fifth farm
Cal: Oh, very good.
Excellent.
Peter: which is about an
hour north of Baton Rouge.
Cal: Oh, okay.
Okay.
Yeah, if you're not
familiar with the area,
that helps out a lot.
Peter: Try to give
everyone some spots there.
So the, the Alabama farms are
sort of in the northeast chunk,
about, Fort Payne's an hour south
of Chattanooga, and Piedmont,
Jacksonville's two hours south of
Cal: Oh, okay.
Very good.
Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.
The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based
livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve
the land animals and our lives.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
week we'll dive into the journeys,
challenges, and successes of
producers like you, learning from
their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.
Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.
This is the place for you.
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10 seconds about the farm.
I finally got rams turned out.
Yes.
I'm a little later than I planned to be by
about a week, but we got them turned out.
So we're looking at may
lambing for the sheep.
Progress is progress.
No matter how small.
For 10 seconds about the podcast
have two things today at first.
The drive to 300,000 downloads.
Share this episode with someone, tell
someone about the podcast greatly.
Appreciate it.
Would love to end the year with 300,000
downloads for life of the podcast.
And secondly, The hardest part about
the podcast, producing it, getting
it together, getting it to you.
Is volume.
I checked volume levels numerous
times through to progress or process.
I'm listening in.
I'm listening to it in my ear.
And I think it sounds good.
And then I go listen to it in a vehicle
or something and there's some variation.
I would love to get any feedback
you have on the volumes.
Are they good?
Is overall it's too soft, too loud.
Or is there too much variation
between the sections?
I know I go over it a ton of times,
but that doesn't mean it just.
It just sounds different
when it's not in my ear so.
Um, let me know what you
think about the volume.
Cal: So Peter, making this was
a huge undertaking, but why?
How did you end up wanting
to make this docuseries?
Peter: and regenerative grazing and
Cal: Yes, how'd you end up there?
I
Peter: So I've always been
someone who loved nature.
My dad, my mom, we did a lot
of hiking when I was a kid.
If I ever littered, it was a big deal.
And, and actually we picked
up other people's litter.
We always left it better than,
than we found it and that was
just the way I was raised.
And.
So all my life I've felt like that
and like getting to Sequoia National
Park and Yosemite and, and just being
in nature is always my happiest place
and I don't get it nearly enough.
And, and I made a movie.
My first documentary features a
film called Garbage, which is about
garbage problems all across the U.
S.
Cal: Oh, yes.
Peter: and then my second documentary
features a film called Carbon Nation,
and that was, My response, my team's
response to an inconvenient truth,
like, okay, there's climate change.
I didn't really know about climate change.
So my first thought was, is it solvable?
Can we fix it?
What's going on?
And I know people debate whether climate
change is real or not, but we wanted
to show a film that wasn't a bitch and
moan film, but it was solutions film.
Cal: Oh,
Peter: And so in that film, we
realized there's just so many
solutions that work, whether you.
Are worried about climate change or not.
It's just a simple fact
of you want a cold beer?
Yes.
Do you want to give a kid asthma?
Getting your beer cold?
No.
Cal: Oh, you're
Peter: and do you like
clean air and clean water?
Yes.
And so we really found the common ground
amongst, The various parts of that debate,
and we were able to show people that,
Hey, you don't have to be worried about
climate change, but isn't it cool that
you can power your house with the sun?
And isn't it cool that you can lose
use less energy and still have the
same performance of whatever it is.
Refrigerators are much more
efficient now than they used to be.
TVs,
things like that in the making of
that movie is when I discovered soils
as a solution to a lot of things
and a problem for climate change
and a problem for a lot of things.
When you treat the soils
well, it's a solution.
When you treat the soils
poorly, it's a problem.
And so when Carbon Nation was done, and
we had been on the road for three years,
I started focusing in on the soils and
I quickly found that grazing, adaptive
multi paddock grazing, convent, you know,
rotational, some people call it, but you
got to be specific about the rotation.
Cal: right.
Peter: mob grazing is what a
good friend of mine calls it.
Neil Dennis called it
because he's, he's gone.
And I realized, wow,
there's something here.
And so I was fortunate
enough to meet Alan Williams.
On the phone and I said, Hey,
I want to make this film.
That's going to inspire
McDonald's and Walmart to, to
buy meat from folks growing it,
like you're growing it.
That's my point.
That's my purpose.
That was the end of 2012 and I
filmed Alan in the spring of 2013.
And then he said, well, if you film
me, you got to film Gabe Brown.
So I called Gabe
Brown, come on up.
And if you're going to film me, you got to
feel film Neil Dennis up in Saskatchewan
and Wawona and Gabes and Bismarck.
So by August of that year,
I'd filmed the three of them.
And then by December of that year, we
were premiering that short film in,
in, in actually in Johannesburg for a
Cal: Oh, yes.
Peter: and that film is
called Soil Carbon Cowboys.
It's a 12 minute film.
It was astoundingly hard
to make and I don't know.
I just remember when we were making it.
Don't forget how hard
this film is to make.
And that short film led to a
10 million research project.
No question.
And, and that short film led to nine more
short films about AMP grazing in different
regions, different ecosystems.
And so while I was working with
the science team to develop and
then fundraise for the science.
From 2014 to 2018, we made 10 short
films, the last one being we filmed in
the end of April in 2018, and then we
were filming Roots So Deep in May of 2018.
So it's very much a, a, line
and just seeing farmers succeed.
In the most trying circumstances, just by
the way they were grazing their animals,
as opposed to their neighbors, it
was so fascinating and so inspiring.
And that's why we were working on the
science, because there was no science
studying all the pieces of that puzzle.
Nature is vastly multifaceted, but we as
a team said, well, let's study the soil
carbon, soil nitrogen, water infiltration,
the plants, are they nutrient dense?
Are they covering a
lot of the soil or not?
Birds, bugs, microbes,
greenhouse gas cycling, animal
well being, farmer well being.
So we cooked it down to those
metrics and beautiful science
team came together for this.
And, and so that's what we decided to
measure on both sides of the fence, the
adaptive side, and the conventional side
and we were able to, well, the adaptive
farmers couldn't wait for science.
They were chomping at the bit.
I can say they were as impatient
as me in getting results and the
conventional farmers, you know,
we're naturally wondering what
is it you're trying to do here?
Are you trying to show us in a bad light?
Are you trying to
show that we're doing something wrong?
And we were very, it was very easy for
us to, to just say to the farmers on the
conventional side, there is no wrong.
We truly believe that we
know you love your land.
We know that every farmer I've
ever met loves their land.
Cal: Right,
Peter: It's just, we
think we found a method.
Of grazing your animals that'll
cost you less be more enjoyable
and increase your profit per acre
and possibly remove your debt.
That's the stories we found with the
short films that we were making, which
is the whole Carbon Cowboys series, which
if you go to YouTube and type in Carbon
Cowboys, you can see all 10 of those
Cal: Oh
Peter: short films.
And all the conventional farmers said,
yes, they, they felt that that was a
reasonable thing to participate in.
And so we had all these scientists on
both sides of the fence for some of
the science took two or three years.
And, and we filmed everything
and we filmed everything
Cal: How many scientists, how many people
did you have involved in this project?
Because I know from watching it,
there's a, it's a ton of people.
Peter: yet.
Not even all the scientists made it into
the movie, actually into the docuseries.
We had more than 20 scientists from
seven universities three private
research entities and the USDA
Cal: Oh wow.
Peter: and so it was a big team.
It was a lot of scientists.
So that's, I think it was 10
research entities, 10 farms, 10
different funders, 10 million.
And so it was good that I
have all my fingers cause I
could count all that stuff.
Right,
Cal: Right,
Peter: and, and, and and it was enormous
amount of work, hardest thing I've ever
done, most rewarding thing I've ever done.
And that's just from my point of view,
everybody worked on it
had their challenges,
had their complications.
And I know some of the scientists would
say it was very valuable for them.
I don't know
if all of them felt that way
at the end of the day.
But I know all the farmers still
return my emails and calls.
Cal: Oh well, well good.
that's, that's good.
Peter: to me, that's huge.
Cal: Yeah, that's
Peter: And I personally, I feel like I
made a lot of friends on the farming side.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Peter: And, and you know, for the
science team, I made a lot of friends
and a few folks, you know, we probably
realized, Hey, you know, this was good.
We did good work, but maybe that we,
maybe they want to work with me again.
Or, you know, that kind of thing.
Cal: Yeah, well everyone's
got their own personality
Peter: It's hard, man.
It's hard.
It's hard to, it's.
It's hard to wrangle that big a team.
And, you know, and scientists are
trained to be skeptical, trained to
be free thinkers, I think trained
to certainly the ones on our team.
And, and therefore they, they, they're not
easily put into a box or anything, which
we didn't do in our study, but that leaves
a lot of folks who, who might want to sort
of go it alone, as opposed to teammate,
then a number.
So we had a couple of soloists and
we had a lot of team, team members,
Cal: I Want to jump
back just a little bit.
We started this conversation and you're
you're talking about filmmaking and now
you're into the science part What what's
your true love in their true passion
Peter: Soil health and, and how it, how
it is, that's, that's, our why, you know,
soil health.
Is, is the reason why, and I thought I
was looking for a solution for climate
change I thought that was my why,
Cal: Oh Yes.
Peter: but then soil health sort of
superseded that because our soils are
in such bad shape around the world
and by healing our soils, we enable
farmers to get out of debt, create
healthy food make the land much more
resilient to floods and droughts.
And it is a powerful solution to
climate change when enough farmers
choose to adopt regenerative practices.
It's not a solution globally until
it's a global practice, Right.
But our research shows that,
that farmers can be a greenhouse
gas sink while they're creating
wildlife habitat, making more money.
Making us healthier, enjoying themselves
more, and bringing their communities,
their royal communities, back to life.
There's, there's so many positives
to, to folks working with nature.
And so that's, that's what
drives me day in and day out.
Of course, I'm a dad, and so do I leave
the planet better or worse for my boys?
You know, I'm working hard to leave
it better and that doesn't mean we'll
achieve it It doesn't mean we'll succeed
all the way across but I feel better
trying rather than not trying I am I if
I'm in action, I'm much more happy and
Cal: Oh, yeah
Peter: When I'm not in
action, I'm not that happy.
Cal: So talking about the soil health
and what you got from the docuseries,
and we'll dive deeper into that
docuseries, But did that change
your practices for your yard around
your house and what you do locally?
Peter: Cal, I am, I am such a
poor example of, of treating the
land well on my own property.
I live in Phoenix and trying to
keep a yard here is incredibly
challenging.
Cal: well Phoenix's is its own challenge.
So
yeah.
Peter: why is this the fastest growing
city in the United States when we
have such a water limitation here?
I do not know.
I'm certainly in Phoenix because I have an
incredible job at Arizona State University
that's enabled me to do all this work,
full stop.
I am from Kentucky.
I miss the trees.
I miss the seasons.
And so that's just, that's just my.
That's just how it is right now.
And I travel so much and I try to be
away from Phoenix for the two months
my boys aren't in school in the summer.
It's kind of hard to even
be a good gardener, but
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Peter: I do dream of being a bit
more settled back in Kentucky,
where I can, I can do stuff.
Now, that said, that said, I have a part
of my yard that never really seeds well
with grass and I just sort of let it go.
Cal: Oh, yes
Peter: whole lot of
plants growing in there.
And so I let that happen.
We planted trees because
that's a cooling function.
And so those are the only
things I've done here, man.
It's, you know, I have solar panels
and I have electric cars, so I'm
using photons to drive around.
So that's taking advantage
of what Phoenix has to offer.
Cal: Oh, yes, it
Peter: Our house has some energy
efficiency, some insulation that we
put in, but I need to do it around
the windows and the doors more.
But having solar energy is great because
then I do all my laundry in the daytime.
So my dryer is going in the daytime
and we use appliances in the daytime.
And so that makes me
feel better, but I fly, I
Cal: Oh,
Peter: the place.
So my, my carbon
footprint's off the charts.
And so I am in no way, shape or
form a a preacher on this stuff.
I'm a, I'm a consumer of
fossil fuels at a great amount.
And it's just the way it is right now.
I have friends that work at Boeing.
They're working on fuel cell planes.
They're
Cal: Oh, yes,
Peter: planes.
That'll be cool.
Cal: that will be.
And, you know, you're really in a
difficult environment there, even beyond
your travel and other obligations.
I can remember the first time I went to
Phoenix, I was just shocked as we flew
down, I'm looking out of the airplane,
and I'm like, where's the grass?
Northeast Oklahoma to Phoenix
is a lot different, so, yeah.
Peter: Yeah, so northeast Oklahoma, you
get, what, about 35 inches of rain a
year there.
So
that, you can do a lot with that.
Cal: Oh, yes.
And in fact, we've had 12 inches
this month, which is not normal.
It's a record month, but
Peter: But if you get healthy
soils, you'll absorb all that water.
And that's another thing about
soil health, is how much it's,
how it enables you to get all the
rain to stay on your farm, or if
it goes off your farm, it's clean.
And it's not a, it's not another
way of polluting our waterways
and killing the Gulf and all those
Cal: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Well, let's, let's dive deeper
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where we take a topic
and we go deeper into it.
So, Roots So Deep.
We've already talked about a few
things about that, but one thing
you mentioned you mentioned
adaptive multi paddock grazing.
And I know this is, is readily
apparent to most of my listeners, but
in case someone's new here what's the
difference between adaptive multi padded
grazing and what you normally see?
Peter: so adaptive multi paddock
grazing is, is a, is a method of
grazing that emulates the way the bison
wrote roamed across the Great Plains.
And of course, the bison and the
grasslands and the beaver and the prairie
dogs created an amazingly gorgeous
and the humans that were here too.
It was all, everyone was all
interacting to create 10 to 12
foot deep, 15 foot deep topsoils.
It's just an amazing system of, of health.
And so the animals go in a herd
and they're on a piece of land long
enough to eat about half of it.
And then they move on because
the food's better over there
or there's wolves chasing them.
They stomp the rest.
Their urine and their manure
has been evenly spread over
that area that they've been on.
And then they leave.
And so all those plants that have
been half munched cannot wait to grow
back, thus shooting roots even deeper
down as they're growing up, completely
fertilized, and they're just sucking
down enormous amounts of CO2, burping
out the oxygen for most of us to
breathe, and then sending carbon down
into the whole microbial community.
And that microbial community, they're
the real grazers, they're the engine.
And every farmer I know that
works in a regenerative.
fashion will focus on the microbes
and then everything else follows.
And the more plants you have, the more
diverse the microbial community and the
more diverse the microbial community,
the more protected the plants are from
pathogens, the more the carbon cycles.
And then what's really
cool was really cool.
Is the more microbes you have, because
you have more plants growing and
the more plants growing or putting
more carbon into the system and more
microbes are forming literally the
populations exploding those microbes
die and then they, they become part of
a good spongy, healthy soil texture.
And volume.
So those dying microbes
actually become soil.
And so they're building the soil back up,
these farmers.
And, and, and all of that entails with
porous soil, water infiltration, soil
holding on to water in the drought times.
And we're getting spikes of both.
I talked to a
farmer the other day who was in
drought and flood in the same week.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Well, we, we just had a real, a
flash fast drought or flash drought.
July 4th, it stopped raining and
we didn't get rain till November.
And now it started raining and we're 150
percent of our normal amount for November.
So it's kind of crazy with that this year.
Peter: So those spikes that
are happening more and more healthy
soil sort of levels off the spikes
for the farmers and gives, gives
the farmers more resilience.
And also for us downstream, it
helps reduce the flooding impact.
And it also, it also helps
provide us with healthier food.
And so, AMP grazing is a
method to get all that going.
Conventional grazing is where folks
are letting their animals roam in a
large area, not in small paddocks.
The people are building with their
polywire electric fence, but in large
areas, and instead of letting the
animals stay in that area for a day
or move their animals twice or three
times a day, I was in South Africa.
They were moving their animals 10 times a
Cal: Oh, wow.
Peter: a very semi arid area and it
was working really well for them.
It blew my mind.
So they're moving a lot, letting
the land rest most of the time.
That's the game.
That's what AMP grazing is about.
Conventional grazing, the area is
large that the animals are grazing.
And they're grazing it down pretty short.
Therefore, the roots are pretty,
pretty low, not very long.
Therefore, the carbon's not going deep.
Therefore, the water's
not infiltrating very
deep.
So the soils are getting hard and
the animals are sort of overeating
the things they like and not
eating the things they don't like.
And the cowpats aren't recycling
quickly like they do on a NAMP farm
because of all that microbial activity
and bug activity that's there.
So every cowpat that doesn't recycled
quickly becomes a part of your farm that
can't grow grass and the animals avoid it.
Then all the stuff the
animals don't like grows up around it.
You've got these little
patches of lost farm.
And so that's, that's the system
that happens in a compounding
way on the conventional side.
And, no, we've met very, very good
conventional farmers in our study,
very good conventional farmers.
But what we discovered was
they could be even better.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Peter: And
so, yeah,
Cal: with your, your amp grazing
and conventional grazing, was
that the main variable in the
two farms as they were pairs?
Peter: that was the variable, how
they're managing their animals.
We spent a lot of time scouting the farms.
We spent a lot of time then
matching soil types across the fence
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Peter: and then slope and, and, and
aspect to the sun and all those things.
In a real world study like this
where you're not on a, you know,
a farm that's built to study
one thing at a
Cal: cutter and
Peter: plots and stuff like that,
it's messy and all of our scientists
had messy moments where they're
like you know, it's frustrating.
But as much as we could, we made it
an apples to apples comparison and
in our soil types, we, you know, I
do this because the, the graph that
shows are they different or the same?
The graph was just like tight.
Cal: yeah.
Oh, very
Peter: really cool to see that
afterwards because that's what we
were aiming for, but you don't know
until you go to the lab and check
this stuff out.
But yeah, apples to apples, the
farmers needed to have been doing
their method in the Southeast.
We figured with rainfalls being
pretty good and long growing
seasons, at least seven years,
one of our, one of our adaptive farmers
had been going seven years, but everybody
else was decades on both sides of
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Peter: Decades.
Cal: And you brought in all these
scientists and, and You mentioned earlier
all the different things they covered.
Peter: hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
Cal: Um, I know from, from watching Roots
So Deep, just that initial data gathering,
the thing that surprised me the most
was the, um, the grassland birds there.
Was the, the difference in population
between a AMP managed farm and
a conventionally managed farm.
I see birds out here.
I see, we have bobwhites, meadowlarks,
of course we have keel deer that nest
in the driveway but I see these birds
out here and to me I'm, I make the
assumption that's just everywhere,
that people have it, but through the
documentary that's the thing that
stuck out, or docu series, that's the
thing that stuck out the most to me,
that across the fence line
that population varied greatly.
Peter: Three times, just across the fence,
three times more grassland birds on the
Amp side than the conventional side and,
and we knew we wanted to study birds.
We had people on our team that insisted
Cal: Oh yeah.
Peter: As a matter of fact, Steve
Affelbaum and his company, which
he's since sold but Steve insisted
that we do the birds and actually
we didn't get funded for the birds.
Like we got
everything, but we didn't
get funded for the birds.
And since his company was doing
the soil core sampling, the plant
sampling that they kind of made it
work to get the birds in there too.
They, they squeezed their budget.
And so that was actually Steve
Affelbaum's company paying for the
bird study, out of their own pocket.
They could have pocketed that money
Cal: Oh yeah.
Peter: and thank God they did because
the birds in the bobwhite quail
specifically became such a, a, a
place of interest for the farmers and
Cal: yeah.
Peter: I just didn't know that,
you know, city boy from Louisville.
I didn't know much about bobwhite quail.
I can now hear them and
I know they're there.
But I didn't realize, like you said, how
different the grazing was, like, so really
it's just, it comes down to, to height.
As much as
anything.
And if you're
letting your forage grow to
waist high, then those birds
have a nice place to nest.
And if you're mowing your fields to, to,
to bale hay, then you're not providing
that area.
But what was really interesting
was we learned our Tennessee pair,
the, the Spangler family who, who
were doing conventional grazing
then and cut their own hay and
all those things, they hayed late.
And
so they actually provided habitat
for those, for those nesting
grassland birds to then, you know, go
through that whole part of nesting.
So then the birds could fly off.
So we learned that even if you're
doing conventional grazing, if you just
wait a couple of weeks into the end of
June or whatever it is in your region,
you'll provide habitat for those.
For those grassland birds.
And like I said, every farmer
I've ever met loves their land.
And every farmer I've ever met and they,
they want to have wildlife on their land.
They, they
love it.
Cal: yeah.
Yeah.
And for me, that was the thing
that really stuck out to me was
the difference in bird populations.
What was, what really stuck out
to you or was surprising for you?
Peter: That's one of them.
That's a big one.
The other one that I was told by a
lot of people, when we made all those
short films for the carbon cowboy
series, I was told that the neighbors
thought the adaptive farmer was crazy.
Cal: Oh,
yeah.
Peter: of judgment across the
fence, just, but whispers.
And what we found in our study
was, there was a lot of curiosity
from the conventional farmer
looking over the fence, seeing
the forage so high, seeing the
animals looking good, seeing more
animals than what they've got.
I didn't know there was that curiosity.
And once I learned That there was as I was
talking to the farmers as I was filming.
I then said, hey, do you
guys want to talk together?
You guys want to ask each other
questions the conventional farmer.
Do you want to ask the
adaptive farmer anything?
Hey adaptive farmer Do
you want to hear from so
like in Woodville, Mississippi?
Wallace Ferguson was curious his parents
were curious of what the Hearst's were
doing what Cooper and Katie were doing
But they just they didn't want to get
in their business to ask about that.
They were friends
They talked about everything but
there was something That they didn't
want to get in their business.
And Cooper and Katie, they're
first generation ranchers.
They don't want to brag.
They don't want to be
seen as telling people what to do.
So
there's this, it was actually
this sort of very polite way of
treating their neighbors that was
preventing conversation about it.
It came from a good place, I think.
So that was
a huge surprise to me, that, that there
was that curiosity across the fence.
And we saw that a number
of times in the study.
That surprised me.
And I thought that was a huge opportunity,
because now that we've done the research,
I can tell you, I know farmers will
benefit if they work with nature.
I know
farmers and grazers will benefit
if they adopt these methods of
grazing that we're talking about.
I know it.
And so, if the conventional farmer
is already kind of curious, if they
have a neighbor that's doing this
work, then that's a, that's a way to,
to get folks to be open to change.
Much more than I think everyone was
telling me before I started this project.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Peter: So now I feel like it, it's kind
of my responsibility with this knowledge
to share it, and it's not just me.
There's a bunch of people.
Cal: Right.
Peter: Me personally, when you think about
what can I do, right, I want to enable
as many farmers as possible to know that
this is an option, to know soil health.
can be on their farm to know
that they can do these things.
And it's just a lot of farmers
aren't taught about their soils.
They're not taught about soil
health and it's no fault of theirs.
Now, I don't even want to
point a finger at anybody.
It's just here we are.
And guess
what?
Pretty powerful stuff.
If you see if your soils are exposed,
how hot they get in the summer
versus the area where you have grass
growing on your soils, you know, and
it could be 150 degrees on on bare
soil in Oklahoma in the summertime.
I met a guy from Texas.
It was 170
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Well, I just talked to someone a couple
of episodes ago, and his tool that
he uses quite a bit on his farm is a
Thermometer one of those infrared ones
so he can measure soil temperature
and and I'm sitting there thinking
With not that I know everything.
I I barely know a fraction, but I'm
thinking why did I never think about that?
That would be great just to have that
Observational data to go with the data
on my own place to see what I have.
So
Peter: that's a, that right there,
that right there, I think is a, is,
is a way to communicate this stuff
cleanly, simply, cheaply, quickly,
Cal: Oh, yeah,
Peter: you know, I mean, that
hundred, that soil in the summertime,
wherever you live, the covered soil
is going to be 70 to 80 degrees.
Down there and the exposed soil
is going to be 100, 110, 120,
Cal: right
Peter: killing all your microbes.
They're
either stopped or they're dead.
And it's, it's like I said before, every
farmer I know that's really working
on this regenerative way of growing
their, their food, their microbes are
their, are their bread and butter.
Cal: Oh, yeah So just getting that
conversation started, going through
this and seeing the curiosity from the
conventional and then getting the data
back to, Hey, there's some real benefits
to doing this all through the ecosystem.
How do we get that
conversation with more farmers?
Peter: I want everyone to watch our film.
I mean, our docu series
is that conversation.
It's
farmers talking to farmers.
It's scientists.
showing results to farmers.
It's, it's the game.
It's what we want.
And, you know, I'll have as
many one on one conversations
as I can have in my lifetime.
Absolutely.
But when, when a thousand farmers watch
our docu series and then we do a Q& A
afterwards, That's bigger numbers, right?
It's, it's, you know, and so when
we translate our documentary into
Brazil, to Portuguese, right?
When we translate our documentary
into Spanish, which we, we've done,
it's just, we haven't gotten that
up running yet in those countries.
Then we can get to a lot of people
and, and, I've been studying this type
of grazing 12 years now, and it just
seems to me that it's benefit, benefit,
benefit for the farmers, benefit, benefit,
benefit for the animals and the wildlife
and the people eating the food
and the neighbors of that farmer.
You know, that's another thing that I've
come to realize, Cal, you know, I've said
that every farmer I know loves their land.
Every
farmer I know also wants
to be a good neighbor
Cal: Oh, yes.
Peter: and would do
anything for their neighbor.
If asked, and might not even need to
be asked if they see that there's a
Cal: Right, if there is a need, yeah.
Peter: they'll just be over there.
What I've realized is when
you're an adaptive farmer, when
you're a regenerative farmer,
you're an even better neighbor.
You're providing wildlife
habitat that will then
improve your neighbor's land.
You're providing water infiltration
that will then not flood your neighbor.
You're actually providing a
landscape that's a better neighbor.
And so I think that when conventional
farmers understand that this is also a
way by adopting regenerative practices,
they can be a better neighbor.
I think that'll be, I haven't had that
conversation with farmers yet, but that's
something I've been thinking about is
we've, we've been on the road for
over a year showing the series in
churches and barns and universities
and companies and all sorts of places
around, you know, Well, so far to
date, we've been all over the U.
S.
and in parts of Europe and South Africa.
I'm going to go on an
Australian tour in February.
There's a guy who's
just doing his own tour.
In New Zealand right now.
He's like, I'm, I've got
to take this film around.
I think he's got seven
or ten screenings set up.
It's
amazing.
Cal: yeah.
Peter: And we, we, we want, I've
just been learning and learning
and learning on this tour.
And it's that neighbor to neighbor
piece that's, it's exemplified in
our series, but it's not spelled
out that whole idea of being a good
neighbor by having healthy land.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Peter: It's there, but it's I didn't like
highlight it or put a underline on it, you
know in the film, but I'm learning that
Cal: So for my particular case, I ran
it and my wife and I watched it and
not, that doesn't get the conversation
going to other people, but I know
you're doing screenings around.
If someone's like, Hey, we
need to do a screening here.
How do we go about that?
Peter: Yes, our website
has a lot of resources.
It's Roots So Deep org Under info,
there's a set up a screening tab
and we've got a team that'll help
And we're, we're going to expand our team.
We have just expanded our team
to help even more people do that.
So that's easy.
Cal: What kind of cost
is associated with that?
Peter: they're really reasonable.
I don't know exactly what those
costs are, but they're, if you have
10 people, it's going to be five
bucks a piece or 10 bucks a piece.
When you
spread it out, you have a
hundred people.
It's a buck a piece.
I think it's in that 200, 300, 400
Cal: Oh yeah, which is not bad at
Peter: But we've never said no to
anyone who wants to screen it as
Cal: Oh yeah.
Peter: So we, the answer is always,
yes, it's just, we're a not for profit.
So if we can generate income from
this project, that's, that's good for
everybody as far as we're concerned.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Peter: so I can be here
with you right now.
The, the website also has.
A lot of resources for folks who
want to con, who wanna learn.
So we
basically just, we just steer
people, people towards our good
friends, Alan Williams and Gabe
Brown's Soil Health Academy,
Cal: Oh yeah.
Peter: right?
Soil health academy.org.
You got a lot of resources there.
Go to one of their one, one of
their schools in an area near you.
They're doing 'em all over the country.
And and they're, to me, the best teachers.
So why?
And they're friends and, and
I've learned so much from them.
They're teachers of mine.
And they're actually heroes of mine.
And and there's other groups
that are teaching as well.
That's just the one we know best
Cal: Oh yeah.
Peter: though.
So someone watches our film, they'll
see that if anyone watches all
the way to the end of the credits.
They'll see Soil Health Academy on there.
And if you go to our
website, it's very clear.
And then if you want to dig into
the research, if you want to, I know
a lot of farmers who love reading
science, who love reading the research.
There's a research tab on our website.
And the first drop down
is published research.
That's our team.
We have 12 published papers to date.
We'll probably have six or
seven more before this thing is
done on our research.
And then we have a tab.
That is related research.
So it's just enormous amount of research.
We're just building
that and building that.
and and so we want to help connect to
resources and we also want to help people.
Our friends at Kiss the Ground, they have
a beautiful tab that shows where, where
you can buy this food around the country.
And,
and so, cause the farmers adopting
regenerative practices, that's
an action, but consumers, we
need to buy from these farmers,
Cal: Oh yeah.
Right.
Peter: that Kiss the Ground resource
we have connected on our website.
It's, it's quite good.
And and so those are the reasons.
So that's really, you're
asking like what's next, right?
What can people do?
Farmers go to SoilHealthAcademy.
org consumers check out our site, go
to the Kiss the Ground site, find out
where they can be buying stuff and,
and, and, and see, meet your farmers.
Right?
And, and what's really interesting
is if you buy the meat at a, you
know, if you can buy a quarter and
freeze it, you're actually going to
be spending less money than you think.
It'll actually be more economically viable
for you than most conventional meats.
Cal: Oh
Peter: that's, that's just
the what I'm learning.
And, and so even the cost
barrier, it's not really there.
If you can go in with friends,
buy a quarter, get it chopped up,
and then you all get your pieces
of it, you'll save a ton of money
Cal: And you're supporting a farmer
using these practices that's showing
to be very beneficial for the ecosystem
Peter: and then you're being
a good neighbor and they're
Cal: and you're being a good neighbor.
Peter: right?
And, and, and so it's, it's
a, it's a virtual cycle,
virtuous cycle of good stuff.
Cal: so you mentioned there
what's next for the consumer?
What's next for the rancher?
What's next for you?
Peter: Sleep, I actually
slept in this morning.
I needed an extra hour in
winter time, you know, when
it's dark, when you wake up, but
Cal: Oh Yeah,
Peter: I had, I had to like, I'm
like, I'm going to take an extra hour.
Cal: yeah,
Peter: Promoting, marketing,
distributing the series is top of mind.
We've got an amazing social media
team, an amazing social media
campaign that's going on right now.
So we've got it's called Carbon
Cowboys is our handle based on the
short film series.
So if you go to any of the, any of the
social channels, you'll see us there.
And continuing that filming at
conferences and getting farmers
to tell us, and ranchers to tell
us their stories, to collect
more and more stories.
We couldn't possibly film all the
success stories that are out there
right now, but we want to try.
We actually have a, a contest
right now where Soil Health
Academy is going to give away.
A a scholarship for one of
their, for one of their schools
Cal: Oh Yes.
Peter: are, if you go to root so deep.
org, you'll see our contest.
And that's, you know, the Tuesday
after Thanksgiving is giving Tuesday
where everyone's all the not for
profits saying, donate to us, which
we're, I think it's fantastic.
We've decided to flip it and
say, we're going to give.
So we're going to take giving Tuesday and
we're going to give a scholarship to Soil
Health
Cal: oh very
Peter: The contest is for
people to nominate somebody.
To get that scholarship.
So then we're gathering stories, right?
And,
and we'll pick, we'll pick the
winner, but then we'll probably go
and try to get folks to film their
stories for us so we can post them.
So then 50, 000 views can
happen, 100, 000 views can
happen.
And, and, and to date with all the
pieces on our social campaign, which
are clips from Roots So Deep, clips from
Carbon Cowboy series, Clips of people
responding to seeing Roots So Deep,
clips of people just telling us how
life is going on their farm right now.
We've got almost 90 million views,
Cal: Oh, wow.
Peter: and
it's, and
Cal: I'm not even close to
90 million with the podcast.
Peter: That's, that's what,
that's what it's about.
We
Cal: Oh, it is.
Yeah.
Peter: now we are.
And, and so hopefully we
can help everybody grow, but
what's really amazing is how you
know, everyone's saying our country
is divided and you can make the case
for it, but I actually personally
feel that we have a lot more in common
than not, if you just sit down and
speak to people one on one.
I've, I know that from my experience,
Cal: Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Peter: but what's happened with
soil health, As developed through
regenerative grazing is we're finding
that it's attracting everyone in
our social media campaign and the
responses we get the comments we get
across the channels across the board.
It is across all political,
social filters, right?
It's
everything.
Cal: Yeah.
Peter: that's, to me,
the power of soil health.
It's hard to argue with it.
It's, it's, it's easy to love.
Easy to love.
There's a Billie Holiday
song called Easy to Love.
It's easy to love
Cal: Oh, yeah.
And one last thing before
we get to the famous four.
Are you, I think you mentioned
earlier that you all released and
produced the docuseries, but you
still had more data coming in.
Is there going to be more parts to
that released or are you working
on a future project with that?
Peter: Yeah.
So the data coming in from the Southeast
project is captured in the documentary.
It's just a couple pieces of data were in
the film before the papers were published.
Cal: okay.
Peter: And so it's reflected in and, you
know, what we say in the documentary,
especially about the greenhouse gas
stuff is, you know, all science, our
science, like all science is evolving.
Cal: Right.
Peter: Here's where we're
at right now.
So if, when those papers are
published, we have to adjust
the data in our film, we will.
We'll make
it very clear.
And what I asked the scientist
who's leading that team was just
give us conservative numbers.
You know, come
in underneath what you're seeing
right now so that if they change, The
probably change where it's, the impact
is even greater than what we've seen.
But whatever it is, we'll, we'll
change it to whichever way it goes.
This is a science project, right?
But if I didn't finish the film a couple
of years ago and then start releasing
it last summer, it wasn't good for
my health to not have it finished.
Cal: Oh yeah.
Peter: I needed that.
I needed that flow of energy to get me
out of the house, out into the world.
And sharing this stuff and, and, and, and
enjoying the impact, seeing the impact
farmers are changing from screenings.
Cal: Oh
yeah.
Peter: it's, it's real.
It's cool.
It's
so cool.
Cal: Oh, I
Peter: so.
cool.
Cal: Well Peter, it's
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Same four questions we ask of everyone,
and we're going to adjust them just
a little bit for you, but we're
going to maintain that same theme.
What's your favorite grazing
grass related book or resource?
Peter: You told me to be prepared
for this, so this is the first
one, a Sand County Almanac
Cal: Oh, yes.
Peter: by Aldo Leopold.
Cal: You know, that one's
recommended a lot and I've not read
it yet, so I really need to read
Peter: Yeah, the guy was just,
he was just so ahead of the game.
And, and, and this was March 4th, 1948.
I
mean, so ahead of the game.
And then this book by Nathan Sayer
called the politics of scale.
Cal: Oh, yes.
Peter: This one's showing that pretty
much all grazing Decisions were based
on a very wet decade in Nebraska
Cal: Oh, yes.
Peter: like so many of the US grazing
decisions that are now like part of BLM
Regulations were based on one part of
the country during an abnormal Weather.
Cal: Oh, interesting.
Peter: it's really interesting.
And then this one, I'll
put this at the top.
Cal: Oh, nourishment.
Peter: Nourishment.
And Fred's, to cook it down, is he,
he, he's showing that animals know how
to balance their diet if they're given
the right choices of biodiverse forage.
They know how to balance their
diet on a daily or hourly
basis if they have the choice.
They know
what they need at that moment.
And he's asking the question,
do we as humans still have that?
With all the sort of fake food that
are coming at us and all the engineered
tastes and engineered making you feel
full when you're not full of nutrients,
all those things.
And so those, those are the
three books that I would
recommend
Cal: excellent resources.
Excellent resources.
Our second question,
what's your favorite tool?
And usually we say for the farm,
but let's just say, what's your
favorite tool for this project?
Peter: the drone.
Cal: The drone.
Peter: Yeah, my drone.
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Peter: I, it's the one I use
is called the Mavic pro by DJI.
Cal: Yes.
Peter: engineered product.
It's easy to use.
I got to film the farms from a, from
a vantage point that I don't have
that I've always wanted to have.
Cal: Oh, yeah,
Peter: I could see the difference
in grazing clearly from up above.
I, I just, I, I love drone shots.
I just like them myself.
And.
Cal: I agree.
Peter: It's such a good tool to use.
I think every farm should have
one because then you can send that
drone way away and you can see stuff
without having to go all the way out
there, especially for the ranchers
in the West who have big tracts of
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Peter: Yes, that's the drone.
Cal: Yeah that I think that's probably
the first time the drone's been mentioned
as a favorite tool But I I love my drone.
I could see yeah
Peter: And that's a, that's
a tool that works for me as
a filmmaker and for you as a
Cal: Yes, it does.
Peter: And, and just to, just to
say it at the end of episode four.
I'm showing this shot that I took
with my first drone on the film.
And then I pulled back and I treed it.
I treed my drone.
My drone got stuck in a tree
Cal: You know, that can happen.
Peter: I had to get a new drone.
That's what happened.
Cal: That can happen.
Just on, I saw a video the other day.
A guy with a drone flew it through, and
I don't know what type of drone it was,
flew it through a tire rolling downhill.
Peter: Wow.
That's
skill.
Cal: was crazy
Peter: That is, that's skill.
Cal: yeah, anyway,
what advice do you give to
someone just getting started?
And let's, let's break
that into two parts.
Peter: Right.
In filmmaking, start making a film
and there's so many applications for
editing that are real easy to use.
Just start making short, short films.
That's, that's what I would say.
Just get going, but don't
try to do a big film.
Don't try to do a 10 minute film.
Do a 1 minute film
or a 30 second film and
film people in your family.
Ask them questions.
Find out things about your
family members that maybe you
didn't even know and be curious.
Be
curious.
Cal: that.
Be curious.
Yeah.
An excellent advice.
That advice of just getting started.
We share so much just on
the agricultural side.
As, as the second part of that question,
what do you recommend for someone just
getting started in, in agriculture?
Peter: Well, I am NOT a farmer.
And so I know what, I know
what Alan Williams says.
I know what Gabe Brown says.
And so go to, I'd say
go to SoilHealthAcademy.
org, but one thing I know in animal
agriculture, they say start small, right?
Start with chickens,
Cal: Mm hmm.
Peter: and if you want to get a ruminant,
start with a small ruminant like sheep.
Don't buy land, get yourself a lease
on land and, and, and, and try to try
to, I would say from my perspective,
from what I've learned, go work
for the farmer you most respect
Cal: Oh, yes.
Peter: and learn on their
nickel while you learn
and don't worry about debt and all
that stuff yet and land acquiring.
And there are a lot of farmers in
their 50s and well, a lot of farmers
in their 60s and 70s, whose kids
don't want to continue the farming
that would love to know their
land's going to continue in this
method of farming and, and they're
looking, I, I, I know that, that Alan
talks about connecting people like that,
you know, those, those, those things,
because I, I think there's a huge need.
That I've seen where farmers need that
next generation, it's not necessarily
coming from their children, but what
I've also seen is when farmers go
towards adaptive practices, their
kids are much more it seems like much
more apt to, to come back to the farm.
Cal: I can see it because to,
to be honest, it just looks
a little healthier out there.
Peter: And the parents look a bit happier
Cal: Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
And that makes a big
Peter: and their bank
accounts a bit better.
Cal: That makes a big difference.
Excellent advice there, Peter.
And lastly, where can others find out
more about you and the docu series?
Peter: Well, if you go to rootsodeep.
org, you'll see everything you need
to know about seeing our series.
And it'll, it'll, if you've used
Carbon Cowboys as our social media
handle, you'll get a lot of new
stuff all the time, all the time.
That's really where, where it's at right
now.
Cal: very good.
Yeah.
Well, Peter, thank you for coming
on and sharing with us today.
Really enjoyed it.
Peter: Thank you, Cal.
Appreciate it.
Cal: Thank you for listening to this
episode of the grazing grass podcast,
where we bring you stories and insights
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