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Welcome to the Lehigh Valley Arts Podcast, where we explore the local arts culture in the Lehigh Valley. We’ll be doing this through conversations with individual artists, administrators, and organizations. We’ll explore all types of mediums with the goal of enriching local culture.
0:04
Welcome to season four of the Lehigh Valley arts Podcast where we explore the local arts, culture and community in the Lehigh Valley.
0:10
We'll be doing this through conversations with individual artists, administrators, musicians, poets, actors, and arts and cultural organizations will discuss all types of mediums with the goal of enriching local arts culture. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Lehigh Valley arts Podcast. I'm Ben and today we have a very special episode in which Elise and Elizabeth interview Larry Mason, Larry Mason is a writer, musician, theatre artist and disability advocate. He works within the theater world to try to build shows that talk honestly about his history with disability and how to build a more accessible theater experience.
0:46
Well, Larry, thank you so much for joining us. We're so excited to have you on Lehigh Valley arts podcast.
0:51
Thank you very much for having me. Yeah.
0:52
What kind of art do you make? What do you do, Larry?
0:55
I am primarily a theatre artist. I'm somebody who likes to learn. And so I've always wanted to be a writer. So I'm a playwright primarily. And then I also do a bit of acting sound design, I've done some lighting work, I've done directing, I've done stage managing. If you can do it, I've tried to do it. But primarily, I'm a playwright and an actor. I also record a lot of music. I started playing violin when I was three. And so I've played music for 20 to 23 years of non stop, I learned how to read G Clef before I learned how to read English. So I always like to say music is my first language. So I play a handful of instruments. So I do that for myself, where like theater is my front facing art.
1:45
I had no idea you played the violin.
1:47
I don't anymore, because I hated the violin. And so I know, okay, like my mother. And I would get into like hour long arguments about me practicing the violin. And so and then I in fourth grade, stopped playing the violin and picked up the guitar. And then in high school, you would get in trouble. And she would say stop practicing guitar, you need to do your homework. So it's really like finding what works for you and what you attach to. So the because like, violin was not for me, I don't know how much of that was I was a five year old who wanted to run around outside. And how much of that was like me not enjoying the instrument. But I think that it has to be partially the instrument because as soon as I picked up guitar, like I would play it for hours and hours and hours. So it's just what you're compatible with.
2:40
I don't know how much this even connects to what we're talking about. But I saw there's this woman on Tik Tok or Instagram that I follow that, so I played the violin for 20 years. So one of the things that this woman talks a lot about as she calls it, like conservatory culture, and how there's like this, really, it's similar in like visual art. And there's like this fine art culture. And like, there obviously is a culture around like, certain instruments and whatever. So definitely, it's like, really fascinating. Whenever I talk to people that are like, Oh, I gave up the violin, I'm like, I wonder why like, I know why it's because there's like this. There is like a weird specific culture around it that I don't think other instruments like like was you play the guitar? And I think I think our, our experiences with like, learning music has been very different to wear, like, I think, and even you said this, like, you play it for yourself. And that's kind of where I've ended up or like, after all of these years, I'm like, I don't even want to, like play at all anymore for other people. Like, it's just for me now. But yeah, it's such a weird, like, a weird way to grow up plus, like, learning an instrument where there's like, a lot of pressure versus maybe not a lot of pressure. It's interesting.
3:58
Well... because I play... I have played, I'll put it that way, seven different instruments throughout my life. And like, I like equating music to language, because I really view it as its own language, where like, I'm fluent in three or four and then like, I'm conversational, and like piano and, and other read instruments were like, I can read, I can play. It's not going to be virtuosic, but it's going to be very, it's going to be efficient for something simplistic. But like I went to undergrad on a full ride for my persoon plane, because I played in orchestras forever and ever and ever, and I still love orchestral music. And part of the reason I was talking to Carter recently who I put you in touch with, who works with the...
4:50
Miller Symphony?
4:51
Yes, the Miller Symphony. Thank you very much. And when I moved here, one of the first places I reached out to was actually the Miller Symphony because I said and nobody ever everyone needs a bassoon. No one ever has extra Students, please, please, I play the bassoon, please use me I would love to and they never got back to me but but I played I bet I've played bassoon and theater shows. I play it all the time by myself, I have assumed coasters at home. But like part of it is like the the hyper competitive nature of violin, where like everyone's battling because he's a concert mistress is first chair violin, first chair first violin and like, I don't particularly care about that. And so I played bassoon, and the nice thing about the as soon as you either have those people who wants to be constants versus, or you have people who just picked up the instrument because no one else was playing it. And so there's like these two different personality types in double reads, because the every time you pick up a double read to play it, you have to work on the read itself, the wiring on it, and the cotton fiber as well you have to work with because every single day will react differently because the wood and how it's reacting to like biometric pressure. And so even if you make these reeds, they can last you for like six months to a year depending on how often you play, and how well you're doing upkeep to. And like you have, you have tools in your case, to work on these reeds whenever you pull them out, you need to soak them for one to two minutes, you need to work on the wires after that. And then you can play and even then even in tip top shape, there's going to be reads that are like never will sound good. And so they're like your practice rates because you can wear them out and throw them away. And then you have your performance reads where these ones sound beautiful. And so you only played them in performances, because you don't want to play in during rehearsals because it doesn't matter if your tone is perfect. And so there's also that part of the soon culture where like, and elbows too, but I played bassoon, so that's what I know. And I've just like working with what you're what's put in front of you. And this kind of no matter what you do is going to be what is going to be and so making the best out of whatever you're handed that day. And that's part of why I really liked the Zune players is because usually they're like, Hey, man, like sure my car just broke down, but I still got a slice of pizza, so it's gonna be fine. And so I've met a lot of as soon as especially higher in bussiness that are that way where it's like, I've been dealt shity shity hand but you know, I still have a cup, I have a pair in there, maybe I'll win this.
7:43
That's too funny. I I'm so glad you brought up the orchestra stuff because I've never had a chance to bring this up on the podcast. But there is an amazing organization in the Lehigh Valley that I've been involved with off and on for probably five or 10 years, called the really terrible orchestra. And it I am consistently the youngest person in this orchestra. But my mom and I go to her because she played the French horn for years. And I love the French horn. She's fabulous. But um, it's we rehearse at a nursing home in Bethlehem. So people that live in their nursing home will like come in and listen to the rehearsals. And then we play a Christmas show of a fall show a Christmas show and a summer show every year. And then I wasn't able to do it. But over the summer they had a show in the park that they did with like some festival in Nazareth. So if you are a recovering orchestra or band kid, this is something you add they have a Facebook page. It's run by people that are much older than probably most of our listeners which is awesome. So reach out multiple times email multiple times to make sure they get your information but the director is incredible. Everyone that's in it is incredible. And it literally is all people that just like want to play together. No one cares if it sounds good or not. It's so much fun. It's so relaxing. And they deserve like this this organization deserves to be like shouted from the rooftops because it is like healed my inner child musician. And my mom, my mom feels like very similarly, I think because it's just so like there needs to be more stuff like that where you can just go and like not, there is no pressure, you can just enjoy it. There's no conservatory culture around it. So just a little shout out to the Really Terrible Orchestra.
9:26
I need to look into that because that sounds absolutely fabulous. But to go back to this conservatory culture, part of the reason I like one of the places I got accepted into was Vanderbilt and Tennessee. And they're very, very good. And the reason why I ended up not choosing them and going to a state college instead is because like I was like can I double major in music composition and theater and they said you can major in music composition, and you can play the bassoon for us. Yeah, but what about this you can apply to the theater school, but you'd have to choose. And so like I also don't like the very limiting aspects of like undergrad conservatories, where they're like you are this thing. And so when I was looking for grad schools that was kind of I got accepted into a couple of different grad school programs that were very, very good. And I ended up choosing Touchstone instead. Because they believe in doing a little bit of everything, and how that makes you a better artist. And I that's something of value that I agree with wholeheartedly is that the more you know, the better you can like prepare. And also, the more you can be like accommodating and think about problems ahead of time, because there's so many people that I know that are actors that are horrible to their costume tags, because they've never had to step foot into a costume room. And so they don't know the etiquette of like, make sure that this is this way. And that's also how you get safety pins accidentally left in your costumes as being awful to your costume tax. But also, I've had pants rip on stage before and like during the intermission, I'm like, head down, stitching it back together with by hand, because I'm like, I don't want to have split bands during act two. And so, but like just having that flexibility to do anything is something I've really valued as an artist. And I think I wish more people would do that. I've definitely observed that conservatory culture outside of music as well. But when I was trying to decide, because even though I chose the school that I did, and they said, Oh, yeah, you can totally double major. It came to a point where I was having solos for an orchestra being the primary bassoon player. And I was also had a leading role in a Shakespeare piece. And there was a show during tech week. So there was this huge battle between the music department and the theater department of like, he has to come to this performance. No, it's our tech week, it's really important that he's here. And so it came down to like choosing. And what eventually made up my mind is that theater is inherently collaborative, in my experience, where people are inherently working together. And I've been an orchestra since I was a little kid. And I've seen people cut strings for violin as they knew we're better than them. I've seen people break reads or hide reads or mouthpieces for tubas they thought we're better than them. And like, there, there's like this really highly competitive nature to a lot of music that like, or at least classical mirror music. And my experience is like, really off putting to me. And so that's why I eventually chose theaters, because I just loved this idea that we were all working towards the same goal. And obviously, that doesn't always happen. That's an idealistic way to look at theater, but it's definitely What I appreciate most than what I strive for when I'm bringing together a group of people to make something
13:08
At this point in your education, you went for what specifically in the realms of the arts?
13:21
So education in general was strange to me, because I started music lessons when I was three. And so like, I've had music lessons for five different instruments, all with very different teachers. And so I was very blessed with having a lot of different teaching styles to deal with. And so I and during actual school, I was awful. Like it, I hated every second of it. Because I had a learning disability that wasn't discovered until really, really late on. And so a lot of it was like me as a kid not knowing how to articulate what was going on. While being told you need to read two chapters in one night. And like I can barely get through half a chapter like five or six pages as I can do in a night. Because also during the during high school, I was doing stuff from 7am was when my stuff started. And then I was working until 9:30pm was when my Orchestra led out after school, and then I wouldn't have a break. So I was band rehearsals seven to eight school until three than I had football from three to six. And then I immediately went to my orchestra which went on until nine 930 And then I could go home and start doing homework. And so like just in terms of being able to balance all of that was really really difficult. And so I was a B average student, but which was not good enough and all of my teachers said I wasn't embracing my, my, my true potential because The issue is I get A's on all the tests, and I never do any homework. And so I kept getting in trouble because all the teachers were like, if you just turned in his damn homework, he'd get A's and no problem. Because he clearly understands the material. He's just not homework. But like, I didn't have time. And also, like, I already understood the material. So I didn't understand why do the homework. But that's also how the system works. So, but there was a lot of it was just like, and so the arts and everything outside of it was it was like this sanctuary for me, where like, during the day, I would have to like, listen to people lecture about stuff I already understood, and that they were really explaining for like the fourth time that I understood on the second time, they explained, and then I would get to go into music. And then we get to play music. And I was really lucky to go to a high school with a nationally acclaimed band. And so like when I went to the high school that I went to, we would tour we had a, we performed in Indianapolis one or two years, because we as a city and concert band, and I had a solo in that. And a huge part of that was the kind of push because I was a better bassoon player. And not a whole lot of high schools had a bassoon player. So it made them really competitive. And so there was a lot of times that when I would get injured, like I broke my wrist when I was in my sophomore year, and my band teacher got on to me about that, because like, I compromised because we had a competition within a month. And so like for that competition, I had to take off my my splint that my wrist was in so I can play the bassoon. And so like there was all like this idea of like sacrificing for the greater pole, which I don't...
16:58
the greater marching concert band.
17:01
You need to play that bassoon really well, or else we might only get a two in our competition instead of straight ones. They will comment about how that bassoon players wrist looked funky.
17:20
This is definitely a universal experience. Because in public school, especially where they're like, Oh, you're not living up to your potential or like doing all of these things that you're supposed to be doing in an academic setting, because you have all of these incredible extracurricular activities that you're participating. That just like, I remember, we had a guidance counselor who like, would continuously try to convince me to give up my orchestra. We'd like a class during the day to give up my orchestra class for an extra math class. Well, I can't do math, and I wasn't interested in math. And it wasn't something that ever interested me. But it was like every year it was a battle.
18:02
Because our school is very, where we went to school was very versed in math and science are it. You have to be really good at this. This is like what we're known for. It's not really my thing. And it's fine. But you know, but it is very interesting, because like you had said like you did well on everything. You knew what you were doing. But yet you're still a B plus student because he didn't do your homework. It's like, that doesn't determine whether you're intelligent.
I don't know, I'm very, like, very odd with the homework thing because I get the need for it. Especially when you're younger and not knowing it. But when you get older, to have that much weight to be like you're losing potential because you don't get out your homework at night. Your B student I don't think that necessarily qualifies you as B students are exploring your individual interests, isn't it our job in high school to figure out what we want to do with their life and not just sit there and just do homework all day long.
19:11
To be fair, it started in like elementary school where I just like never did homework and like and that was always a battle that I had with my parents because it was like I cuz I just viewed it as busy work because I understood it. I am unfortunately one of those people that understands things really quickly, but like to reach a higher level takes me a while. And so I've always been unlike in life inherently a B/B plus student, like I can walk into a room and usually understand something well enough to like, be better than most but not be outstanding in any regard. And so it took me a very, very long time until I was a junior in high school to like understand that. Although you can do that you can also like, be better. And that was my bassoon teacher who told me that is that I remember so strongly this I, because my sight reading for music is outstanding. And that's something I could always cite read. And I could cite read to like performance level when I was practicing music every single day. And that was something that like, I wouldn't be hired professionally, but like I could sight read it and be at performance level. And she just remember this one lesson plane, my solo four solo and ensemble to get into the state orchestra, which was a big deal because the state I was in was really competitive, especially for bassoons, which is odd, but but she just sat for a second. And she said, you know, you can be better than this, right? And I was like, that's an odd thing to say after. I've just played like a five minute solo for you. That's an odd, like, immediate comment to make. And she said, Well, I know you don't practice. And I know that you don't really care to right now. But I just want you to understand that if you did, you could probably be first chair. And at this point, I just been like, even as a freshman in high school, I was last chair, like I was second chair, second bassoon in the lower orchestra, because there were two tears. And she was like, you could actually try. And so that year, I got first chair first bassoon in the second orchestra. So that was second best who auditioned. And I just remember that being like the first time that like, I like it finally clicked in my brain that like I could try. Because up until that point, it was never like, everything that I did was like, inherent to me. And so it was perfectly fine. Nobody expected anything of me. Everyone was expecting me to be this average person. And so it was totally, really easy to just walk in be what everyone expected me to be and then just leave. Because at this point to I was also undiagnosed with my narcolepsy. So it's tired all the time, I was in immense pain from a back injury from sports. And so like, it was also really hard because I was the sports person forever. And I was being told that as soon as I started playing football, that that was going to be my life, because like, I got football, I walked onto the field, and I was better than everyone. And then I continued to practice and to be even better than anyone else. And it was like the one thing that like it felt like that was my life. And my freshman year, I had a rib break and detach from the sternum. And it and I did tell you like where my mindset was, didn't tell anyone. And I played throughout that season with a broken rib that was not attached to my sternum. And I was alignment. So he's been hit in the chest, every single play of the game.
23:30
That like knocks the breath out of me even thinking about it.
23:33
That's how badly I wanted to hold on to it. And so and I would go home, and I would cough up blood, and I would hide it. Because like, this was my thing. This was the thing I was I walked on, and I just know. And so getting that taken away from me was like this, like this hole that was left in me. And like music is something that I've always had. But like, again, it's like language, you know, a lot of people take the language they're born with for granted, unless they talk to people from a different community, and you start to appreciate different aspects of it. And so it wasn't until after that I really started to appreciate music more. And so in theater, I hadn't even tried theatre until after I got injured in football. And so theater is a third life for me really. Because the second thing I wanted to be after the football thing clearly didn't pan out was I wanted to be a zookeeper. And so he worked for I worked. I worked at a zoo for a summer. And I worked with the big cats and I was like this is what I'm going to be and then a huge part of zoo keeping his manual labor. And so as my back problem got worse, they were like, Hey, you can't really work here unless you're like able to lift 50 pound objects regularly.
24:57
I just sat through like this whole thing. This whole webinar on, writing accessible job descriptions, and they're like, legally, you can't put in a job description, you have to be able to stand for 12 hours and lift 50 lbs. And I was just like, that makes me furious... anyways...
25:16
To be fair for Zookeeping, you do have to. Like, I can tell you from firsthand experience, we were moving feed bags, and like clearing the animal enclosures and stuff. So like, you gotta. I had this whole plan in high school, where I was gonna run away to Iceland and start a zoo there. And I was gonna have this giant zoo in Iceland, and everyone would come and see it. And I had like this whole economic reasoning behind it that I had written out and everything. I did this, instead of reading the books, I was supposed to, by the way, I would research like, Second World countries, and like how they really prioritize entertainment centers, like a zoo can be because you also have these connections to other places as well, because of the way the animal Exchange works. And it was like, this huge thing, and it was really passing an amount and then it was like, Well, I guess oh, I'll go played in a Shakespeare play now. That's a that's a big job. Well, it was a, it actually was a lot of transferable skills, because like, in theater, it's a lot of physicality. It's a lot of like manual labor. And it's a lot of like, precision work, where like, because I was also doing a lot of carpentry at the time. And so like a lot of the attention that I had to pay during football, to like this huge thing to be able to dissect a single issue works great for carpentry. Because like, if you're working on this piece of furniture or whatever, and something's not right about it, you have to be able to take a step back and see the whole of it and how the parts are operating within it to see what the issue is to adjust it. And so there was a lot of like transferable issues that are issues, transferable skills that I was...
27:07
Freudian slip.
There's transferable issues, but that's just me. My bodies are transferable issues that I'm taking every day.
27:17
It's funny because I was I had someone just told me about this online resource that is specifically designed to like help people find transferable skills across industries, and how like post pandemic there's a, there's a lot of gaps in like the art industry with people that had lost their jobs, and then left the industry to find other things. And there are so many transferable skills out of the arts industry into other industries, but also other industries into the art industry. But there's such a weird culture, like around art stuff, where people are like, like, cat has no, like, stay away. And you're like, there's but there's so many transferrable skills.
27:53
Excuse me, you didn't go to a conservatory. So you have to, you clearly can't do accounting for our gallery. Because you don't, you can't appreciate the fine brushstrokes.
28:07
Besides the fact you seem to be very much a jack of all trades, is there something you don't do, like, I feel like everything's just popping up.
28:14
I try very hard to learn as much as possible. Just because, like, like I said, in school, like I was very happy being an average student. And so and part of being average is knowing a little bit about everything. And so you never walk into a situation where you can't cover your ass. And so like, but also, I've experienced with art that because I've been a writer for so long is that I view how I viewed music was I wanted to know how all the music the instruments sounded, and how they played. And so when I wrote music, I would know the instruments well enough to be like, Okay, this isn't going to sound like this leap isn't going to work very well for French horn. Because like it, especially bassoonists. Like we deal with people who don't know the instrument at all. And it's a very odd instrument in the way that the registers break, and doesn't come in like natural like in a clarinet at like there's one break and then in the higher registers, there's a little bit of a break, but in the bassoon, there's like there's two giant breaks, and they come in really weird spots in the register of the instrument. And so I dealt with so many composers that would just be like, we're going to do this to this and I feel like how do you I don't have 20 fingers I have 10 And so because in so like, that's how I viewed a lot of life is that um, I also am somebody who like, likes to fade in the background. So like as much as I can like do to for other people so they don't even notice my existence. I'm happy to do and so they just don't Look at me and just keep walking.
That's a true theater major.
That's something that I actively tried to do. Because like is also as a as a collaborator. Because I focus on device theory is feeding, see term making, which is means you make a cohort of people, and you all come together to write the show. And so a huge aspect as to why I love that is that it promotes everybody knowing a little bit about everything. Because everyone can say, Oh, that's interesting. Well, I have this idea for the sound that's for the section that could be like noon. And then somebody with a better sound brain can be like, let me grab that. That's interesting. And there's always something to add. And, and I think that one of the major things that I work at as a theatre artist is making sure that everyone feels like they have a voice. And that's a huge part of like, what motivates me as a writer especially is like, wanting to make sure that nobody feels left out. And everyone feeling like they can say something. And so that's why devising specifically so interesting to me is that like, you can pull in people that because I founded a device Theater Company, when I was an undergrad. And what motivated me to found this company was that there were freshmen, that were black men that were being completely overlooked, even though they had really good talent. But they weren't traditional for the parts that they were auditioning for. Part of. That's typecasting, and like, there was some valid ness to it and some invalid notes to it. But it like, I knew him really well. And I knew that like, in part of it was like, because he was not being picked up. He was starting to drift away. And I could tell like his work ethic was changing, because he was he was trying so hard and not getting anything for it. So things were changing. And so I inherited. So like, there was a couple of people this was happening to so I started this company, and because like that's not right. And I really want to give him an opportunity to not only prove it to other people, but give himself a voice. So he can tell himself that he can do this. And so when I founded this company, a lot of it was making possessions that I knew he could succeed in. And so there were parts of rehearsals that I would be like, I just feel like there needs to be comedic bit here that compounds off of this, what would be a good, you know, what Jake, could you just tell me like what you think would be great. And he would like just go off. And it was like this is perfect. This is exactly what devising needs. Devising to me is. And so it's just so also having this jack of all trades. I know enough about everything to know, okay, you have a brain that's really good at this, even though you haven't tried it, I would love for you to look into it. Because I think that your brain would really understand how this works. And I've done that a couple of times. And I've and selfishly, it's been very good for the projects I'm working on. But also like, it's been really cool to put people in positions to succeed and watch them succeed and grow.
So just for those listening, can you give us kind of like a short description of what device theater making is?
It's difficult because it's a subculture of a subculture, it would be like trying to describe what pop punk is, is like, there's things to it that like you can immediately gravitate to, but there's like more granular things and specific oddities that you're like. So device theater, is when a group of people works together to collaboratively create a show. And so that means that in my experience, that I have a cohort of members of like 79, professional theatre makers, and these are technical people, these are writers, these are actors, they're everything their state managers, and we work together to come up with what's really interesting to us. And then we slowly start to build the show through like improv exercises or other devised based exercises where it's just like what pulls at you with this idea, and and that will inherently kind of make a foundation. And then in my experience, there's usually a writer too. There's a wire attacking me, there's, there's a writer too, that takes the idea and makes a fool. And so it's this, like group storytelling, more or less is like the main inherent aspect or virtue of it, that I just find so inspirational. Because there are so many people that I've known that I've pulled pulled into devising better like I'm not a story Tell her, I'm not that creative. Just give me a script and I'll go, and like they come up with these great ideas, but they would have never had an opportunity to say it and that we would have never had the opportunity to hear these stories. If there's like, somebody didn't give them the opportunity just to be like, I don't know, this might be stupid. But can you try like this? And it's like the best idea ever.
Well, it's like a very specific removal of the power structure around like art making that so traditionally exists. So that's really cool.
35:31
The thing is, is that it is that at the beginning, but like you start to integrate these more traditional roles into it, as things go on, because like leaning on people's natural talent, yes, exactly. And it comes in like halfway through the process where we're, we have a pretty good foundation of like what we understand now we're going to break into roles. So we can make this a full production. But you're not. The idea is that you're not going out to fulfill all of these roles, like within the company that created the show, you should already have a stage manager, you should already have a director, you should already have all the actors. Sometimes you cast for extractors of like, you're a five person company, and you made a 20 person show, obviously, you're gonna have to hire some actors. But the the idea is that most often this is a story that these people wrote and created. Like The Laramie Project is one of the most culturally relevant pieces of device literature, were like this company went and did these interviews and came back and the company that did the writing and the research and everything was the one who produced it. Tectonic Theater Company is the name of the people who wrote The Laramie Project.
36:48
Kind of talked a little bit about it, but I am a little curious as to how the writing portion came to be. Especially when you're you're talking about being in school and not enjoying, you know, the assignment or homework. So how does that kind of play out to eventually becoming a writer?
37:05
It was something I always wanted to do. I don't know, like, before I knew how to write, I would like have these journals. And I would just scribble in and be writing stories. I remember very strongly as a three year old like having this journal. And, and scribbling in it not any letters. I didn't know how to write at all yet. I didn't. And just writing out the story of a variation of Goldilocks, where like, the Goldilocks was a bear, and the Three Bears were people. And like I remember very vividly writing this as a, and then I remember showing it to my mom, like Yeah, read this. Isn't this real cool? And she been like, Oh, wow. Sure. And so like, um, but I always listened to audiobooks. When I was a kid, I had really bad insomnia. Some of my earliest memories is not being able to fall asleep as a kid. And so I would just listen to audiobooks non stop. And so just like, this world of written literature is just something I've always had this huge attachment to. And so, and that was always something that if everything else was like not working out, I would always get the feedback of like, whenever you write, it's great, because my voice has always been super strong when I'm writing. Because like, I am obsessive about words. That's something that I've always loved. My mom is a polyglot, and she was an editor forever. And so she spoke four languages constantly when I was growing up. And so whenever she was mad at my dad, she would speak in Spanish because my brother and I could speak Spanish. Whenever she was mad at my brother and my dad, she was speaking French, because I could speak French. And whenever she was mad at all three of us, she would speak in German, because none of us knew Oh, look up German. And so yeah, so there was like this degree of separation, and like, but like just growing up, I was always encouraged to love words. And that was something that like just wordplay has always been something pawns. turns of phrases like, also my dad's a lawyer. And so like being able to pick up on words and find loopholes was always something that I could, I could get away with something as a kid being bad. If I could logic it out via words. And so like, if I did something that I knew I wasn't supposed to, and I would get into trouble and I would go app but you said this, listen, this. Technically I did this. If I could explain it. Great enough with my words, they would be like And so like, so like this, just like love of words has always been there. And so and just this want to be gay to be able to give like people, a voice has always been there as well. And I believe in this weird thing that I'm sure that will make people think I'm a little strange, but I'm somebody who likes to believe in like, like multiple universe, whatever. And I view like people who are writing are actively seeing into a different universe and so like, and so like these people are alive and living. And so us writing down their stories is giving them life in this universe. And so like it's this act of like giving to someone else. And so that's weird.
40:52
Actually. Poetic I like it.
40:55
And so that's also like, I was talking to somebody today about, why I write, and why I write so much. And it's just like, well, for a long time, it was like this unhealthy thing where like, I'm narcoleptic, and it wasn't diagnosed until a year ago, a year ago, in a couple months. And so And the ironic thing with narcolepsy is like, you're also prone to insomnia. Because the way that your brain works, it's tired all the time. And so when you try to actively go to sleep, your brain is like, it's not any different. So you just sleep when you don't want to, and you can't sleep when you want to, here's kind of how it goes. And so, I would also, I'm also severely OCD. And so I would get to spots where like, I couldn't sleep for two days, and then I'd be like, Okay, I'm gonna write an entire play in one night. And so I'm really teaching myself how to write in a healthy way and enjoy it. And part of that is like, coming back to the pathos of that philosophy of like, this is an act of giving, is writing. And so also I write about the disabled community, in my own experience, and trying to do that is feeding into the giving aspect of writing to me. And like giving these people a chance to tell their stories, giving these people a chance to tell their voice. That's also I spend a lot of time before anything gets performed going to people who've lived these experiences and being like, hey, is this right? Does this feel connected to you? Because I think the main thing that I go for, and the main thing that would like discourage me as somebody was, like, you're writing about something that like, obviously, you have no experience. And I think that would that would be the thing that I would be immediately like, Okay, I need to reevaluate why I'm writing this.
It's a good transition to your play that you wrote the way in which I, so I, recently, fairly recently, have realized that I have some very serious long COVID lung issues. After having COVID Like for TA. And it was funny, because as you were sharing the script for your, for your piece with me, I was going through a lot of exactly what is talked about in the piece, and I don't know I like turned off my camera, we were on Zoom, because I like started. Oh, I gotta go Larry, that well, I need to. But like it's so it's such a powerful piece of theater, at least for me, it felt that way. Because people discount the importance of representation a lot. I don't know it, it like really struck me in a different way than I expected, which I really appreciated. And was and I had the opportunity to come and see a performance of it at the Ice House, which was fantastic. But I it's I don't know, if you want to talk a little bit about like the process for that or all of it.
Totally. And I primarily I want to say that the reason why think theater is so important, specifically live theater, is that like, the human connection of it, is because with movies, there's a literal fourthwall there's literally something separating you from what's happening. What's being presented to you with music, there's the separation unless you're viewing it live, but even then it's one sensory experience. Why I think theater is so powerful and why I've dedicated my professional life to it is because there are these people going through it onstage in front of you. And like your brain can't make the separation that these are fake people. And so that's why I think like, stories that work well are interpersonal dramas. That's why I personally don't like musicals as much as much as they're popular. I think they can be used greatly. But I have an issue with like spectacle being the leading force and theater because that's not what theatre does. Well. what theatre does well is the pathos and the ethos and like that interconnection between people, and that's why Tennessee Williams is really impactful. That's why Edward Alby is really, really impactful. And that's I write from a view of Absurdism. Because I've had a very difficult life. And so it's easier for me to rationalize it. Behind this view of the surrealism, which is a philosophy of like, nothing in life really matters. Everything's absurd. And so that's where plays like the zoo story come from, that's where stories plays like. Waiting for Godot, that's, that's where I wouldn't have minded. But that's where like Waiting for Godot is, and I will say, I think Waiting for Godot is a better piece of literature than it is a theater piece. Because like how it's, I think a lot of what Beckett does is really interesting. And I like a lot of what Beckett does, but I think that he's more interesting as a literary figure, because you can read it, and you can read it quickly. And you don't have to wait for a literal two hour performance of good dough to get through. And it's like, okay, nothing really happened. And like, that's the point yes. And like, yes, you can enjoy the character. And, and, and, and if they're good actors, it's really cool. Because you get to see like how this waiting for purpose tears this relationship apart. So if the acting is really great, it's a good experience. But like, because of the way American theater runs is that like, that's only going to happen in collegiate theaters. And so you're going to probably get one really good actor and one actor, that's okay. And that is something that like, in a piece like in the theater, like Beckett, you need two powerhouse actors that can hold attention. But I'm getting back to the waiting room. That was a piece that was kind of observing the absurdity of like the waiting room, in doctors offices. And so how that piece was written was it was this couple that came into the waiting room, where there's one person who is chronically ill with a back injury. And there's one person who is her partner, and is her primary caregiver. She's the one that like, around the house brings her things if she can't get up to move, she's dating, they're dating. And so the first thing is a very genuine, naturalistic to use the Seder term dialogue between these two people of like relationship troubles and like what's happening and how that can really weigh on them is because there's one person that needs a lot. And that can really weigh heavily, not only on their mental but on their partner's mental because there can be this. Yes, a partnership is supposed to be back and forth and trading. But like, it's, it's hard. Every relationship is hard. But and so having this very genuine back and forth between the two of them of like, private jokes, and having these really good genuine moments, but also like noticing, like, can I go back with you? No, I don't want you to go back to the doctor's room with me. And like, that being the hook for the audience to be like, Oh, Hi, what's up with that? Because that seems like a really firm reaction to something that it shouldn't be that big of a deal. But and so in the in the second scene, you go off into wonder land, you go off into, like, not, you're not in reality anymore. Because like, I've been in doctor's offices a lot in my life. And like, the way you color those memories, especially like memories that are traumatic is like you don't remember people as they are, you remember them as like, abstractions of like, how you remember them talking to you. And so it's almost like you're living through this memory of her going through this doctor's office of this doctor being this clownish. Ly bad doctor who's like popping pills during the, the appointments. And he's like, he's completely confused on who's in the office at first. And so it's almost like a meme, her memory of this event happening. And it's like this. And Carrie is just like, I just need you to listen to me. And this doctor is like, he's like sitting on the ground and kicking his feet and like, he'll like he's clearly in his own world. He thinks he's the most important person. And then eventually, she's like, I don't think you're taking proper care of me. And that's when he's like, Okay, I'm a real person again. We have terminated your practice here because of the way that you yada yada yada, yeah. And like, that was the moment And that like she remembers so vividly because like, that's the moment where she feels like completely lost. And so that's why it's so specific with that language is like, up until that point, he's a clown. Like he's obviously not using proper terms. He's saying weird things. There are moments of like, this is a real term. This is real term. But largely, it's like this weird, INCOHERENT BABBLE. And then right at the end, where he's like, we're terminating you, we're terminating your service. And it's all like the actual language they would use. Because that's the moment that she's like, dissociating, and like, the only thing that's left is like his voice.
It was so well integrated to it, like that point of self advocacy, where they were like, Nope, just kidding, like back to reality.
Well, like, I don't know about you, but like, a lot of my memories is like, things that I wish I had said in the moment. And so like, part of that, too, is playing with the idea of like, did she actually say that? Or is she just sitting there slack jawed the whole time? He's doing this. And he's like, and so because we can't figure out anything that's wrong with who you were terminating. You just said yada, yada, yada. And so like, it can be viewed in two different ways of like, did she actually say this? Or is this things that she desperately wish she had said in the moment? I also intentionally like this is the most I've ever talked about myself and like my writing, I don't like to do that very often. But like one of my favorite answers from any playwright ever. Edward Albee was a weird dude. And I don't like a lot of what he said. But my favorite answer from any creative ever came, comes from Edward Alby. Somebody asked him, What is the story about and he said, it's about 50 minutes. And so and I think that I think the reason where that comes from from Alby is he thought he was the smartest person in the room. So I think it's more of that from him. But I believe that all art is interpretive. And like, that's the important part. Because I believe that once it leaves my mouth, what you think of it is the reality of it, because like it for good and bad. And like that means that each piece of art is like has millions of interpretations, because what you're bringing to it is so different, and is going to color how you experience something. And so it's also like, not my, it is bad artistically, but also, I think is like not the point of art to then hear somebody's interpretation be like, well as the writer.
That's typically what this space is for.
52:35
Yeah, I know, but I still feel bad about it. We can talk more about it later. But anyways, and then the final scene is between care is between Rosa who's the primary caregiver, and this older woman who lost her husband. And he went to this place forever before he passed away. And her like reminiscing to Rosa about like these conversations they had in the waiting room. And like, how she wish she had valued that a little bit more at the time. And her actively giving her the wisdom of yes, this sucks. Yes, I know, you don't want to be here. But you need to also understand what a great opportunity this is to connect. Please don't waste it like I did. And although that kind of went away, and later versions of it that was like the like impetus of that scene when I was first writing, it was like, this older woman being like, Please value this because I didn't. And it went to further away from that as I was writing because I was like, I don't really want to be that depressed. And so she was talking more upbeat about these memories, and she but like, and it really is like this bittersweet. He's gone now. And the weird thing is, is the thing that I remember most is our conversations here. And that was my sense of normalcy when I needed it was waiting here. And, and like, I think that there's a lot of people who just view their life is like a to do list when like, you can stop and appreciate things. And I'm somebody who's lived a very difficult life and aspects. And like the thing that got me through that most difficult times is being able to like understand that the moments I have in this waiting room with a person that I love and being able to talk with them is a blessing. Being here having to be here is a curse, and I really wish I didn't have to do it. But because I'm here I get to have this conversation that I might not have had the chance to otherwise. And I think that that's something that goes beyond just the disability community is like there's a lot of people who view life As this task list, and I just wish that more people allowed themselves to enjoy the moment to moment. And so, as I was writing, a lot of it was I was talking to at least from the very beginning of, hey, I want to make the show as accessible as possible. Can you help me prepare, as I'm writing this to make this more accessible? Because the issue with accessibility in theater, probably other things, but
55:27
I know exactly, you're gonna say and it is all things.
I know. But I don't want to make the and my personal experience with theater. They're like, a week before the performance, maybe like the night before opening, they're like, oh, shit, maybe we should have some accessibility stuff for this. Hey, can you make this accessible? And it's like, Well, do you mean like, do you want ASL interpreters? Do you want an audio describer? Make it accessible? I make it look like we try. Yeah. And it's like, well, what communities are you trying to outreach here are you trying to is do you have a connection to a specific community here. And so I need to prioritize this kind of accessible while we we wanted accessible and as you're not. So lot of my, my, my work recently, has been around accessibility, just because like a lot of the hardships in my life has been around disability. And like not knowing what it is not knowing why this stuff was happening to me, it just was. And I didn't know how to explain it. And I didn't know what it was. And so a lot of my work is like trying to make examples of people and what they're going through and why. And so like a kid like me, who is 16, who is running away from everything as possible, wouldn't have to do that. Because they could understand what was going on with them. So they can explain it to somebody else who could help them. Because a lot of my issues, especially when I was a teenager was I was just in pain. And I was just tired. And I just couldn't do the work that was expected of me. And I had no clue why. And so when people were like, Why aren't you doing this, I didn't, I didn't have the language to explain to them, what was happening. And so why accessibility is so important to me specifically is like, if I was able to see the waiting room when I was a teenager, I think that I would have had a much easier time. And so it's just trying to make shows, and trying to make art that can that can connect to people to make their time easier. And so and that's also why I don't like making an overly depressing show is like, if I'm trying to help somebody, there's no point in making them slog through a half an hour of crying. But I also want to represent life. So there will be moments of sadness, there will be moments of tears. But I always want to try to leave people off on a hopeful note. And so that's why the show ends with there was audio description written into the play. And so there was a character that I played. That was audio describing the whole plate from the stage as part of the as part of the narrative itself, both in terms of like doing the actual audio description, which means I was describing the people on stage and their actions. And also there was this meta aspect of this character being somebody who was facilitating the storytelling. And so not only was this person actively telling you what these characters were doing, but he was almost like a narrator. Think Like, in our town, there's a narrator role of like, they're setting up the story that's about to be told,
It sounds very much so like the Drowsy Chaperone like, yeah, and it was such a nice surprise to coming to the show. Because there you hadn't included any of the narration or audio description in the script that you shared with me. So it was like really awesome to like, sit down and then be like, Oh, how's this? Oh, that's amazing. Oh my god, it's coming together.
I'm really glad it came together because like, it was also like super simple. I don't like to say it like that. But like, because I had a plan for it and I wanted to do it. Also like people in the accessibility space are so willing to help. And Elise is I will gush to Elise about anyone who will listen, because I think that she is one of the hardest working people I've ever met and one of the most like genuine people I've ever met. And so like any opportunity, I have to like facilitate her growth or like to make connections for her i i go into my way to do it. Because everyone I've met in the accessibility spaces like that we want to make things easier for people and that we we have to fight every single day for, for the basic needs of other people. And we wouldn't do that if we didn't care so deeply about it. And but it really was like, doing the research and doing the readings and talking to Elise and talking to an actual audio describer. And then taking a course in audio describing, like, just being able to apply it to the writing was like, there was already a function of a narrator character, it was, it was not a huge leap for the audience to understand. Okay, he's describing the actions of the characters on stage.
1:00:42
Yeah, I just Well, I'd like to throw out there for those listening, that maybe have listened to the show in the past, like, we tend to have a lot of visual artists on this podcast. And like when they come in, we will write an audio description of one of their works. One because it's an auditory program, but two, it increases accessibility. So when we're talking about audio description in the theater space, and Larry nods to saying it's simple, I will say like, in comparison to audio scribing visual art, it does take a lot more forethought. So like, there, there is a lot of credit to be given to you as the playwright and as the person that put this together that like, a lot of times the way audio description is structured in performing arts settings, is you will get to the rehearsal stage and then an audio describer will be hired to attend maybe one or two rehearsals basically memorize the entire play, and then come to a couple of performances that the theater deems as audio described performances.
1:01:38
And also write their own version of the script right to read. So they also understand what's happening on stage to interject here. So it wouldn't be interruptive to the dialogue that's happening on stage as well.
It is a very intensive process that, like with most accessibility related things, had it been baked in from the initial birth of the project or whatever, could potentially be very simple. But that's just not how it traditionally works. So I think like, I was excited to bring Liz to the performance because I was like, you have to see like, this is gonna be revolutionary in the world of theater. And not to say the other there aren't other playwrights that do this. I'm sure there are somewhere, but it was just like, I'm being loosely generous. But
From my research not really.
It's just such a nod to like, like, I see on Tiktok all the time. Like in like people talking about like dating. Like if you if you if he? If he wanted to he would like that's exactly like, yeah, how I feel about accessibility work. It's like the people doing it wanted to they would do it. Yeah. But they just don't because it's the extra step. It's yeah, this much money. It's that it's that and like, Yeah, this is turning into a rant that I could go on for an hour.
1:03:03
Yeah, I think the odd part about it is it's we label it as accessibility, but it's not accessible. It's unattainable. And majority of really any arts. It's very unattainable, because he's either a people that don't care enough to go and do it, or learn about it to begin with. B, they don't know what needs to be researched to begin with, because they're not taught it based off of anything else prior or even in. I mean, it stems from, I could do this, because I'm an elementary school teacher, it stems from your very beginning, they're like you don't really touch or touch that with a 10 foot pole, because God forbid you say anything about it. But then it's not attainable, because it's expensive. But really isn't the goal is to make it so that it is all accessible eventually, what? It is very irritating how many people don't do it. Yeah.
1:03:56
The knowledge barrier is high for a lot of this information. But like, I won't say like, Oh, it's so easy. You can just make everything accessible.
If it was planned for it would be that's what I was trying to say earlier when I said it was simple is like, because that was like, right. When I started writing the script, I came to you with like a point five draft of the script and like, I was already trying to make this accessible, what aspects of the script isn't and how can I improve that and like playwrights already meat was dramaturgs regularly while they're writing, it would not be a regular there should really a dramaturg dramaturg should be trained in accessibility as well. I think that that would be beneficial. I think that would be an easy like sub plant because a lot of dramaturgs also focus on like front of house in like display of information in front of house and how to treat the script.
I think I need to shift my career path...
1:05:00
I think you would enjoy being a dramaturg
1:05:03
college. And I didn't know what a dramaturg was until I had taken that course. And like, I was like, Whoa, that sounds cool. Now,
one of the smartest people I've ever met is a woman by the name of Rebecca Weaver. And she's a dramaturg. And she like, the good dramaturg like Rebecca can revolutionize how a play is done
I wasw going to say, maybe give us like a little definition.
A dramaturg is somebody who does the research for a place. So a dramaturg often is working with directors or playwrights about like, if, if a writer is like, nowadays, people would smoke, but like in the 1600s, like, if there was a group of men outside, what would they be doing other than smoking, a dramaturg would be able to be like, okay, based off of my information, we have this, this and this effectively, their job is to do research into things that will heighten the performance of a production or have a script of just being able to give the credibility of like, sometimes they do, Rebecca does a lot of Gender and Sexuality Studies. And so she will work often with playwrights or directors who are trying to like adjust Shakespeare into a more asexual or transsexual, respect. And so she'll be doing the research and doing community gathering to be like, Okay, what parts of this seem unattainable seem on realistic? They do a lot more than that. But really, they do the research to make plays really seem solid, they give a foundation for a play to be built on top of Rebecca, wherever you are. And Miss. Rebecca. You would love Rebecca, you really would.
1:06:53
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to say that, like, there's a lot of people like yourself that are pushing it and, and putting it out there for other people. But I also feel like there are a lot of people that haven't had the experience to be able to really understand what it is to begin with. Because both of you are coming in and myself included, just from a different perspective, or coming in with an eye and a perspective of, I've been around it, I can see like, and you have a connection with people and you build that connection with other people. But it is difficult for someone on the outside looking and like if you imagine you're someone else that's never come like, which is possible, haven't come in contact with somebody that has ever really needed that accommodation or needed that accessibility. They're not consciously thinking of it, because they haven't experienced it themselves. Which is in your, in your mind when you've been around that so often in your life. It's like, second nature in our brains, and like consciously, subconsciously, we don't even really have to think about it. It's just like, Oh, why would you not do that? Like, that doesn't make any sense? Or, like, that's so insensitive, why would you not provide that. But if you think about it, in the grand scheme of it all, there are a lot of people that have never even experienced any notion of like what any of us have experienced in life, and I think it becomes very two sided, I think I want to say I don't know if that's the right word for it or not. But there's a lot of pushback, I think from both sides, because we don't really have that middle ground or that medium where people can be like, I don't know a lot about it, I want to learn more. Or I think like some people either they just don't even consider it. And then people don't on the other side are like how dare they be so insensitive. It's like, I think that there needs to be a middle ground has to be met. But it's just that balance point. Like how do we get there? You know, what I mean? Like, is tough. And it is and can be very frustrating when you're on the other side of it's like, this is like my career like, this is my life. This is what I do all day. How could someone not know about it? But then at the same time, am I really being willing enough to teach them in a manner that is not? I'm gonna say degrading, that's not the right word. But yeah, yeah. Like it'll be condescending, but I also don't want them to under like, I don't want them to think it's fine, either.
1:09:09
You don't want to downplay it.
1:09:12
But I also want them to be like, Come and join me like... join my circle.
1:09:17
It's interesting that you say that because I often run into this issue and I it translates between all kinds of like diversity work where, especially in like work surrounding racial equity, you talk about how like, it's not the responsibility of the marginalized community to educate other people. But like, it's so interesting with disability because what's this statistic that like one in four people have some kind of disability, and some people don't even realize and like most people will face either temporary or permanent disability in their life. Most people will come in contact with someone or have a partner or a loved one or a parent that will have a disability in their life. And it just furthers your point of like the anger that there is no exposure to an early education that like, even through, at least in my experience in the public school system, and it sounds like, like, I don't think I met someone who used a wheelchair until I was in high school, like it's a, it's something you don't talk about. And people that require additional assistance in school growing up are others, so quickly
put in a different class
1:10:35
the students that are not in need of those services are already being put in like this higher position where, oh, well, now you don't even have to interact with the students that have disabilities, because that would be a hindrance on your education. And like,
1:10:53
it's like outcasting people that Oh, really never should have been to begin with. And then to look at it in the sense of, we don't want to be judgmental, but we have been taught to be that judgmental person from the beginning. But also then kind of goes back to the idea of sometimes people are afraid to ask for help. Because if you are, if you if Yeah, like if you want everybody to help, we have gone to like this weird, like, cultural thing where it's like, if you ask for help, am I going to be like other it almost. But I think that we're in the society now that I'm hoping and it's what I've been, I've seen it a little more often that we're trying to integrate it more naturally. But it's again, it's something that, you know, it's not going to happen overnight. But it's definitely something that I've seen a lot of, especially in education, like we were talking earlier, like, so young, you're afraid to ask for help. But because people have been so afraid to ask for help, I think that it's become a normalized thing to just not even think about it.
1:11:57
It definitely has. There's a reason why accessibility is lumped in and to Dei. That is diversity, equity inclusion. It because whenever I talk to my African American friends, and I'm lamenting about like, Oh, why is this difficult and yada, yada, yada? They're like, Oh, this sounds familiar. And it's like a it's very similar, because it is a cultural thing. And it is like, it's very different. Like, there is a reason why, like Muslims need prayer rugs, and this Listen, this time to observe these religious practices. And disabled people need breaks at this in this in this time do we take care of it is like, culturally, they're very relevant. Like, like, parallels. That's the word. Thank you. Yeah, thank you body for just drawing.
Thank you, yourself.
My body's like parallel lines. My brain was like, I have no clue what you're trying to tell me. But but there is a a cultural culture of hiding the disability. Because most people are five seconds away from being disabled. And so part of it is like this, this this zeitgeist of like fear around it, and just in, there's like this internal like, juxtaposition between like, this could happen to me, and I'm invincible, nothing will ever harm me. And so like when you're talking to a lot of, but in my experience, when I'm talking to a lot of people about disability, especially people who don't want to be equitable, is like this, you can see the mental gymnastics of like, Oh, that makes sense. But I don't like it because that means that we in like this, like, you can see the process happening in their brain of like the submission, and the immersion of this idea and hiding it from themselves. And it's like, if you just like accepted the words that I'm saying to you, right? wrong thoughts. I will say that I'm very new to accessibility work, I started. This was something that was introduced to me when I started grad school was something that I didn't even think about until there was a man called Todd London who came in to do a guest lecture. And he was talking to me about the show that I wanted to write, which was about this disabled father and his relationship to his kids. And like, through this lens of disability, and I was just talking about it as like this interpersonal play. And I was also talking about the, the house struggles that I was, I was having an MRI that week, and so I was gonna miss a lesson and yada yada yada. And he was like, why aren't you researching disability and accessibility? And I was like, oh, and I will say, every, like I said earlier, everyone that I've talked to in the accessibility community, really, really wants to do this work and really, really He wants other people to be as empathetic and as excited as they are. And so everyone that I've ever talked to in this community has been very, very welcoming. And there's these, there's a bunch of free resources online. The National Endowment of the Arts has a couple of Handbooks for, for accessibility design that are free on their website, there's this there was a theater, that was a accessible theater program, like they that was their prime thing. And although they're defunct, now, they have their handbook of how they designed all of their shows to be accessible on their website that you can still access now. And so there's a lot of free resources online.
1:15:50
Yeah, I will say the accessibility community is that is one thing that there is so much content, and so many resources, and so many amazing things that are out there in the world that you can find and watch and research and like, this is not something I was trained in, this is something that I have spent the last seven years of my life researching. So it's something that I'm very passionate about due to personal experience, but also just because the community is so incredible, like in welcoming and like open in knowledge sharing, and I think one of the most and I'm curious what you're, like, positive spin on, on, on this will be but like one of the things that I think if I had to boil down to like, this is something that you could do right now is like this concept of flexibility that is like so missing from our society. And I think, post COVID It's started to kind of like ease back in a little bit with like, people working remotely and changes to workplace and changes to professionalism and professional dress. And like, that's one of the things I into coming into terms with my own disability that like, I never considered myself disabled for all of the years that I did this work. And now, the more that I'm doing it, I'm like, oh, there's a lot going on here that like I identify with, I will be so forever grateful to the people I work for, because they showed me that like, I deserved this flexibility. Like, as an employee, I was doing my job, I was doing it well. And I had this other thing going on that like I deserved the flexibility of like taking care of myself, in addition to doing my job and doing all of the things that I love. So like, as an employer as a person doing arts accessibility work as an arts administrator, as a theatre person, visual artists, like, just open yourself up to like, flexibility in your work like don't hold so true to all of the things that you think are required of you like a really good example of this is we had a visitor in the museum last week who has macular degeneration. So she's legally blind, and was using a magnifier lens and standing really close to a painting. And I saw one of my student workers about to go tap her on the shoulder and say like, Excuse me, can you please back up from the painting, and I caught them just in time. And then I felt bad for not training them to not do this. But I said like, Hey, I just want you to take like, let's take a minute and notice, like why she's doing that. And the students like oh, I didn't even realize she had a magnifier. And I was like yeah, so it was like in the future. Maybe just take a second to think like why someone might be doing what they're doing. Similar to like, we have a lot of children with like sensory needs that will come into the museum. And I always just encourage like other staff that are working to like take a second to just think why that person might be doing what they're doing. So yeah, this concept of like flexibility. I don't know if that's something you ever run into in like the classroom or as a teacher, like, you never run into flexibility issues
1:19:05
I mean, even just the simplicity. And I say simplicity lightly. of I mean, I work with six and seven year olds all day. Yeah. They don't understand the concept of tonality. And just like, "that was my Why did you do that?" Like, okay, let's just stop for a second. First of all, you can use your words to describe how you're feeling and why that upset you. Second of all, let's not whine about it. Let's use a nice tone. It's just even so the simplicity of tonality and just expressing yourself is is very people weren't taught how to do that anymore. And that is so simple, but yet we gotten away from it a little bit more, but it helps them out quite a bit. I also feel like a big part of being able to teach children and just anybody who hasn't had The ability to do it before the opportunity, they have the ability, but they don't have it the opportunity is being genuine about it. Like the, the genuine genuineness that you can have for just simply asking questions, is has a huge impact not only on for yourself to learn, but for the person that you're asking. Like that can genuinely make someone's day. And even with that, then they can understand Oh, like people care? Yeah, like, let me share, I'm willing to share more now. And that is something a simple thing that anybody can really do any day. Like, if you simply ask somebody like, Hey, how can I help you? Or like, what do you need from me to be able to feel like you can successfully and like, feel calm? And just like you're able to participate in this just as simply as anyone else? And just not treating them differently? You know, like, in hindsight, yes. Am I treating them differently? In a way? Sure. But I'm not treating them differently as a person, they're still person, there's still somebody that I should be genuinely coming up to and asking, hey, what can I do to help you like, the same way I would ask anyone out, so it is no different and teaching the kids just how to do that has been really good. Like we are right next to a classroom that is emotional support classroom. And it is really interesting, because like, teaching them just to be like, you don't have to stare at them, like just walk past them, like you would walk past anyone else. You can say hi, you can talk to them, you can wave and do it ever. But teaching them so young is such a big deal. Because then they will become that person that's flexible, or it will become the person that's okay with the flexibility in the future is which is what we want what we want. So that genuineness is goes a long way, which I think is a really big deal, especially with kids. I mean, they're going to just go absorb it like a sponge, and they are going to go out in the world and show others and adults or even their parents like how to be that way. And it's it's huge because I do I have a lot of kids that don't do one doesn't speak English at all. And just even just the teaching patients like being like, oh, patients is a big thing, too. I think with that as well. Because a lot of people who go go go rush, rush, rush, like I gotta get my like to do this. I'm about to do this and things like that I got my to do list done. It's like, yes, but you can also take a minute to be patient. And observe, like you're talking about like, observe because simply observing and then being genuine be like, hey, what can we do? Like I think goes a long way. I think it's something as simple as that really is effective, especially in the long run. And if more people do it, I think we can build a bigger community that's even more welcoming, more solid to the point of being able to reach out to more people in the community than what we can do right now. And I think that that can make a huge difference in the long run, if that makes sense.
1:22:52
Yeah. I think it's creating this like comfortability around talking about disability and accessibility.
1:22:59
I mean, we've incorporated it. There's no, it's just like, yeah, and I niche right.
1:23:04
And for those that are listening, like, please, if this is something you're interested in, like, I love talking. DM me on instagram.
1:23:17
Like, meet for coffee. Yeah.
1:23:20
Oh my god. That's the dream is to just get accessibility coffee dates out. I'm just gonna say like, everyone, I know that does this work in the community, like I just met, I'm gonna shout out to Archie McCaskey, who's the new manager of accessibility at the Allentown Art Museum. Hi, we have like that we just did like our second, like coffee date meet up and just like chatted about accessibility. And like, that's something as someone doing this work that like I need so much. But if you are not doing this work, and you want to be like, I'm not going to position myself as an expert, but like, I'm happy to talk about it and point you in the right direction. But in addition to that, I think along with this episode, we will be sharing a lot of additional accessibility resources, and disability community resources. And just maybe even some organizations that are doing like some really incredible social justice and advocacy work as related to disability, and racial equity. And you know what all of it, we're gonna do better. This is here. And now we're gonna do better sharing out all these amazing resources that are in our community, because I think it's important, but in the meantime, if you just want to chat, we're here.
And I will say that I have seen, even in the last year, a major shift of interest into accessibility, because I'm working right now as the accessibility coordinator for the Atlanta Fringe Festival. And there's a huge shift in like culture in theater about accessibility, and then we lysing it whether how much of it is just political We'll talk and they don't actually care that some of it too, but there are corporations were like the Atlanta fringe incorporated a entirely accessible performance for children with sensory issues as part of their festival. And that was something that was there was this performance where half of it was entirely accessible. And half of it was more traditional. And there was a increase of people coming to the accessible first hour portion of it. And like there is a fiscal and business sense to do this as well. Because it's also like community outreach. And so like the, the, when I'm talking to businesses, the thing that like always gets my goat to use an odd expression. Give it back. See, this is what I'm talking about. When I say I'm obsessive about words, I use strange turns of phrase, because I find them amusing. Also, because my brain doesn't work half the time and gets my goat was the only thing that was accessible to my brain. But when I talk to businesses, it's it's a huge aspect of it is like, commute, the access the disabled community, or the community that is chronically ill, is so passionate about the people that are doing this work and are so willing to bend over backwards to give feedback and to give support and to lend aid. Because like any group, they are, they are wanting to speak they are wanting to go and enjoy these things. And if they see even like a little bit of inclusion they are so I don't want to say childish, because that's a little bit, you know, and for tising the community, there's like this childish glee that comes with when you see like, oh, they care. And like this, just love and like everyone that I've worked with in this community is just so grateful to have the opportunity. And it's so rewarding to be able to do this and be like, even for the selfish, like, I know that I really needed this as a kid. And like the little me is really thankful I'm doing this now is like also seeing the impact that it has this community in the community. Because as a writer, I struggled for a long time, but just writing stuff and people would come up to me and go, Oh, your writing was just so great. I love the way that you use insulin or like, yes, that's like a fun little ego boost or whatever, because I'm, I use this fight thing. But like, it's so much more impactful to me to have people come up to me after the shows and be like, I've lift this, thank you for making this performance because I felt like I couldn't tell anyone about it. And seeing the show made me feel like I wasn't as alone. And that was even the smaller crowds that came to the waiting room. I got that five or six times and it just like, didn't break my heart. But like it really really was like that's what this is all about. That's what this what this what I've been looking for, is like this just ability to finally help people not feel as alone.
I'm like furiously nodding I'm like, "Yeah!!!"
1:28:29
we are so like, immersed in like our specific things that we're doing right now. But like what about all the other things we don't know about like, that people were doing either just like this coffee shop is accessible or like, this place is doing this, I suppose as an interpreter this place had audio/visual, like, I think that we are, there's so many other people that we could like, celebrate like people celebrate them. Yeah. And celebrate the people that are looking for and that are like, Oh my gosh, you should go here. Like they have this cool thing here. And they did this. They were they were appreciate like, just like, all of it. And I think that if we have other people just message us and be like, Okay, do you want a spotlight for you know, a disabilities this week? Like who do you feel we really embraced it or embraces it throughout their like daily. And like if you've, you know, if you hear somebody like definitely like, let us know, or like if you hear somebody or even just somebody that's listening to, like, reach out to us, we'd spotlight them on the podcast, like, either shout out to them a day or like, put them on our social media. And I think it really is. I mean that even simply.
1:29:34
That's a huge part that I talk about with accessibility is that a it like you also have to do the community building aspect of it. You have to do the outreach, because there's because not only will it give you a better turnout and a good interaction with the community, but also if you're talking to these people, you'll have a better understanding of what their needs are and So you'll have a better facilitation of being like, Okay, I'm in direct, like, where I went to high school had a the largest, the largest blind college in the nation. And so like, whenever there would be shows, they're like thinking about it now, I would obviously be in connection with the college for the blind. And I would make a lot of bend over backwards to make sure that I have good audio describers. And like, just knowing the community and making that outreach, a makes your job a hell of a lot easier. But be also those people are so excited to tell you about like, and they're so willing to work with you. And like, it is so easy if you just have that in mind to be like, Hey, okay, I'm so glad that I got to talk to you. Now, I know that I don't need to worry about ASL interpreters, because there's no people who are deaf in your community that you're bringing, like, obviously, you'll want an ASL interpreter anyways. But if you're working with this specific community, you'll have a better understanding of like, okay, this is something I really need to focus on. And then they'll come and then they'll be excited.
1:31:07
I have so many things to say about this, but I'm going to try to boil it down into like, two points. The first is that, um, that what you touched upon was like having readily available accessibility. Like things in place like ASL or audio description, or whatever. Disability is a, it is a very intimate medical thing. Like the embarrassment, I don't want to say embarrassment, but I feel embarrassment a lot of the time, like when I have to ask for like a chair or something because I need to sit down the embarrassment or like the uncomfortability that comes along with that comes along with like, having to ask for something is dehumanizing.
1:31:50
Elise, I am too embarrassed to walk into my doctor's office using my cane. I understand that. And I, I had to ask permission from my spinal doctor to use my cane when I go visit him. Like I like they're like, because it's, it's like showing your underwear to someone. Like even if it's not on your body, it's like, people get tense about it.
1:32:15
It's a very vulnerable experience.
1:32:17
I've never in my life used my inhaler in public, like never in my life.
The first time seeing your inhaler so and like, it's
1:32:27
It was my first time seeing it and I've known her for, like 15 years.
1:32:34
The first time I brought it to work was when I was going through like a really bad bout of chest pain, like a couple, like a month or two ago, where I was taking my nebulizer to work and like using it in the office. And the whole time, I was just like, Oh my God,
my watch is telling me to relax, by the way so...
1:32:56
The last the last thing I will I will say in this vein of accessibility other than please reach out if you want to chat is just that there is this weird Field of Dreams, like lens around accessibility work where like, Oh, we're gonna have ASL and then people will show up, is never going to work that way. So like finding people that can support you and understanding what outreach and marketing avenues people with disabilities actually utilize is going to be barn on like one of the most important things you can do in terms of engagement. So Larry makes a really good point. And Liz makes a really good point about like, just doing this work from the ground up. But if you're an organization, or even an individual artist who's just trying to get into this sphere, like, just talk to people with disabilities. That's it. That's all. Like, just talk to them. Talk to us.
1:33:49
Talk to us. We're here. Yeah.
1:33:51
I mean, the big the biggest part is building relationships with people. You can't can make connections with anything related to someone without building a relationship first, and that's like the key to all of it,
1:34:02
and I will shut out really quickly. LVACA does a really good job recently with Jackie Schwartz. She did a Disability Pride event last year. That was really fun. I got to perform some of my music there. And then she also partnered with me to help promote the waiting room. And so they are somebody who do. They did at least I don't know if they still are. We're doing monthly spotlights on disabled artists in the community. And I was the first person that I spotlighted, actually so as part of the waiting room and I will say that Jackie's is trying her best and she's doing a really good job of like, she brought in somebody to teach a audio description class. She's doing a really good job at community building. And there I know that she has been struggling in certain aspects of it in terms of just like, read a sense from the community to like, includes some of the accessibility options. But she's done a really, really good job from what I've seen of like pushing past a lot of those barriers.
1:35:10
And then LVACA is the Lehigh Valley Arts and Cultural Alliance based in Allentown. So, Larry, I did before we finish up, I did want to touch on the show that you're currently story gathering and researching for as part of your thesis thesis.
1:35:29
I really love mythology, mythology is something that I spend a lot of my private time like reading on, just because like, I am fascinated by stories. And I'm fascinated by like, these religion and how like, impactful these stories are, and how they can shape somebody's life. And so the story that I'm working on now is kind of a combination of my interest in myth and legend and accessibility. And it's a combination of the story of Sisyphus, who was the Greek king, who tried to delight death, he kidnaps Thanatos, the god of death. And he there was this plague, where it's just people weren't dying. And eventually, Hades himself came from the underworld, which was a big deal, Hades did not leave the underworld. That was something he was not even allowed to do, technically, to come to take Sisyphus this came down to Hades. And his punishment for this defiance of death was he was to push a boulder up a hill to the precipice. And once he did, he would be done. But it is a hill that never ends. So the point of it, the punishment is that there's no point of escaping death gums for all. And so there's this almost specificity and struggle, and a lot of people who are disabled or chronically ill have this constant restart of our treatment, especially with people like me who have disabilities that cannot be cured, I have something called Crohn's disease, where there will be oral SIRs ulcers that are formed in my colon every once in a while, and they cannot solve the disease, they can't stop that from happening. But they can treat me for when that Windows Form. And so it is this specificity and of just kind of like waiting until there's something that can be treated, and then they can start treatment for it until it abides. And then we're waiting again until the next thing comes. And it's like this Whack a Mole game almost of symptoms. And so the story is I'm up until this point with the waiting room. And my play before that, called dissonance was very, very personalized to my experience with disability and my kind of experience and people directly connected to me, the waiting room, the main character of which carry is pretty much a one to one representation of me. And for us, it was a one to one representation of my partner. And there's a lot of our story and how we dealt with those issues baked into that. And so with this, I really wanted to step away from my experience to talk to other people who also have had uncurable illnesses or diseases, to see how they kind of deal with this, this specificity and task of dealing with these these diseases who cannot be cured, but that can be treated along the way. So right now I'm working on talking to people hearing their experiences, how they deal with starting over how they cope with it, how they deal with it, how it impacts their lives, and how also they can keep the hope while doing this over and over not to give up what they do to help build and not just let the boulder roll all the way back down to the bottom of the hill.
Excellent, very deep mythology embedded within the within the project. But I really love that and I think the like metaphor is very strong. So I'm excited to see that all come together. Do you have dates for when that will be?
The dates are April 4 and fifth at the Ice House Tonight.
1:39:30
April 4 and fifth 2024. And Larry, if people want to find you online or learn more about your work, where can they reach out to you?
1:39:42
They can reach out to me at LarryMasonTheatre on Instagram. I post some of my music on there to my music has next to nothing to do with any of my accessibility work. But I also there's pictures of like for the waiting room. There's fun pictures of us in rehearse saw and there's updates about what I'm doing there, but I'm not super active. I'm sorry, I'm a physical person but but I'm, I'm more than happy to point you towards people who are calling the community or resources that I have found, or even give you some bits and pieces of advice that I've found trying to make more accessible theatre.
1:40:22
Very good. And I will I will say that's Larry Mason theater theater spelled the fancy way. Larry, thank you so much for joining us.
1:40:35
Thank you very much.
1:40:36
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