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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Jordan Maney (00:00.801)
my god. Hi Becky, hi Tyena.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.91)
Hi Jordan.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:05.058)
This is Jordan Maney, Breast Lab. Before you introduce yourself, I just wanted to say, yes, who's also, who is a little tardy in arrival because you were doing what?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:05.672)
I.
Our good friend, Jordan Leading.
Jordan Maney (00:08.096)
Jordan Maney (00:14.574)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was resting. A little too hardcore.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:18.572)
I love you!
Taina Brown she/hers (00:20.574)
Little two on the nose.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:21.794)
You rested too close to the sun, huh? But it's perfect. What a better reason to be late for our discussion about rest than because you're resting. that's great. Well, tell the people who you are, Jordan.
Jordan Maney (00:23.4)
I did. A little two on the nose. That's so funny.
Jordan Maney (00:31.624)
thing.
Hi everybody, my name is Jordan Manie, AKA the Radical Joy Coach, and I help people who I call bleeding hearts, AKA people who give a damn, center, rest, joy, and care in their own.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:46.43)
you're here. You don't look like you just woke up. Maybe that's because you got that extra rest. You look well rested.
Jordan Maney (00:47.762)
Thank you for having me.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:51.026)
you
Jordan Maney (00:51.84)
You know, this is not SponCon, but I know it's so dumb because it's literally naive backwards that Avion water spray. I put that on and then I quick moisturize it really quickly. I just like I look a little. You know.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01.549)
at the end.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01.597)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:11.726)
I'm so cool. I didn't know what spawn con was sponsored content. got it now. I'm not hip to the spawn con lingo, but anyway, well, we're glad you're here. We're going to talk about rest and you just sent out a podcast episode slash sub stack post, which will link to your sub stack in the show notes about rest. So you can rage. think that was the, so Tyene and I both listened to that last night in preparation of this.
Jordan Maney (01:16.58)
Mm-mm.
Jordan Maney (01:29.788)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (01:34.28)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (01:40.982)
And it just feels like a really great place for us at least to start because I don't know. I assume that everyone listening and both of you are fucking raging all the time. Like I feel like I am constantly having to in a way resist my rage, but then also leaning to it in the places where it makes sense and all that. But the world is a shit show. And I think is making most of us like filled with fury and anger and frustration and all the feelings. So talk to me about why rest.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:53.745)
.
Jordan Maney (01:55.504)
Mm.
Jordan Maney (02:05.255)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:10.274)
matters for those of us who are raging.
Jordan Maney (02:13.49)
So in that podcast episode, I watched this interview. Have you ever watched an interview before where you're just kind of like, my God, this is going to change me. I watched this interview with Merle Evers Williams, the surviving widow of Medgar Evers, who was horrifically assassinated in their driveway in 1963. And Gayle King asked her, like, have you ever wanted revenge? Like, did you ever want revenge for?
what was taken from you, how this traumatized you and your kids. And she said, yes, I wanted revenge, revenge by doing well. And I was like, hold on. And she continues to talk about her legacy and all the ways that she.
focused her energy, her rage into her work. And I think especially when I talk to baby community organizers, newbie activists, folks who are just getting into perhaps protesting or showing up in those types of ways, anger is a really great initiator. And the way that I will draw the line between anger
and rage is rage is something that actually can be sustained. Anger is not anger runs you run out of that real quick. And so I don't think it is a bad thing if it helps you initiate getting involved at a community level, whether that's volunteering, whether that's organizing, whether that's going to a protest, whatever that looks like. But I do think what ends up happening is people have so much
valid anger, that they let that lead and try and let that be the thing that sustains them and then they don't take care of themselves. And then like their body starts to break down or their mind starts to break down or they're just like so focused on doing so much that they're not really effective. And rest so you can rage.
Jordan Maney (04:29.736)
came to me, I think that was like last year, where I was thinking about rest. The whole reason why I do this work, rest, care and joy, is because those things help us navigate the rage, help us navigate the grief, help us navigate the really yucky, icky, uncomfortable feelings. And they're necessary to be able to sustain any type of change, any type of advocacy.
And so, So You Can Range is really about like, take care of yourself so you can continue to do this work. Channel all of that anger into something that you can sustain, into a role that you can sustain for a long time, for your lifetime. There are a lot of people who like, who want to do it for a longer period of time, but they approach it from that kind of like,
I'm mad as hell, I'm showing up to this thing and I'm sure y'all can relate, I'm sure listeners can relate. There has been at least one protest or action that you've gone to and like anger was the thing that got you there, that initiated you getting there and then it was over and you were like, okay, so now what? What am I supposed to do now?
And I'll use a cute little anecdote, not anecdote, but like a little snippet. There's a Black Lives Matter protest here locally in San Antonio some years ago. And the group, they're trying to take down this Confederate statue in this park. Our city council for the most part is pretty progressive. And they were already going to take it down. But, you know.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:20.026)
you
Jordan Maney (06:26.694)
They had to go through the process of doing that. So the guy who led the Black Lives Matter side of the park and protest, he was like, we're going to take it to the streets. We were like, OK, so we go to the streets. We get the picture, all of that. And then we all go back to that side of the park. And he sits down and he like eats a granola bar and drinks a Capri Sun. And we're like, look at Adam like.
What are we supposed to do next? And he's like, chill for a second. Like eat a snack, hydrate, like take a break. And I remember that pissed me off so bad in the moment. Cause I was like, no, we need to be doing, you know, X, Y, Z have our lists and all that. And he was like, you can take a break. You need to do that. So rest so you can reach is really about how can you take rest.
care, joy, and use those things to sustain, go from anger to rage and sustain that work over your lifetime.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:37.474)
Yeah, I love that. It brings to mind, one, several conversations that I've had with my therapist about anger, about being angry about certain things.
But it also brings to mind, have you read Uses of Anger by Audre Lorde?
Jordan Maney (07:55.385)
No, love Audre Lorde. I need to, needs read.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:57.578)
you have to read it. You have to read it. you know, the one thing that my therapist and I talked a lot about in terms of anger is like anger is typically a masking emotion. Like it's a secondary response to an initial feeling. And because we jump to anger, we're so used to jumping to anger so quickly. Sometimes we don't know what that primary emotion is, right? And so there's work that needs to be done to kind of uncover
Jordan Maney (08:08.744)
Mmm.
Jordan Maney (08:13.032)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:26.158)
the root of what we're feeling that's making us angry, right? So sometimes it's grief, sometimes it's betrayal, loss, sometimes it's, you know, whatever, whatever it might be, you know? But I think one of the things that like really, that I try to focus on a lot with when it comes to any kind of emotion is that like it's all information, right?
Jordan Maney (08:52.392)
Mmm, I love that.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:54.616)
Like our feelings, our information, there are bodies way, our minds way of like telling us that like something outside of like baseline is happening and it's affecting us in a certain way. And so if you're angry about something, then that's an indication that you need to pause, right? To figure out what is this.
external or internal thing that's happening, that's sending, that my body is sending these like signals to my brain to make me angry about like, what do I need to be, what do need to know right now in order to be able to move forward? And I think because we live in such a culture of just like move, move, move, move, move, whether it's anger or happiness, right? Quote unquote, good or bad emotions, right? And I don't like labeling emotions as good or bad because they're all information.
Jordan Maney (09:42.578)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:49.399)
Right? And so I think when we label them as good or bad, then we assign these moral judgments to our feelings. And so when we have bad emotions, then we feel bad about having bad emotions and then guilt creeps in, which then also masks the anger, which then also masks the original emotion, right? Which makes it harder to figure out what's really happening. But without having that time to like pause to figure out what's really happening so you can decide how you want to move forward.
Jordan Maney (10:14.311)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:19.895)
Like we're just storing up all these feelings and eventually they do bubble over, right? And this is why people have outbursts. I mean, I have angry outbursts all the time because I'm not, I'm still in my forties, still not used to taking that time to pause. And I think what you're saying about like having that time to rest, that's part of that process, right? Of like making sure that you are pausing, that you're giving your body and your mind time to like slow down.
Jordan Maney (10:38.887)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (10:49.713)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:50.051)
So you can tap into that information and understand what's happening for you and what's the appropriate action to take. In Uses of Anger, Audre Lorde talks about how anger, god, there's a specific quote. I just wrote about it in my newsletter last week, so I'm so glad that we're having this conversation. she says, I'm gonna have to look it up. Becky, I'll let you go while I look this up.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:17.806)
Well, I don't want to veer us too far off topic, but I'm gonna while you're looking up anger I hope this doesn't get us way off a field though or I can just let you know what let's just wait because I'm gonna go there anyway, but I wanted to wait so we don't miss this but I'm gonna let's just Hey future Becky edit all this out Well, I'm the looks it up
Jordan Maney (11:28.711)
No, and now I want to know. Now I want to know. Oh, okay.
Jordan Maney (11:42.184)
I was gonna say when you were talking about that, it made me think about the emotions wheel and how like anger, like you were saying, could be like a bunch of different things. And I was talking to a friend earlier this week about it actually, and how I think I'm like a preacher's kid. like growing up black and Baptist and a girl, I wouldn't even, I didn't even know until maybe five years ago.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:48.14)
Yes, I was thinking about it too.
Jordan Maney (12:12.145)
when I would say like, I feel blocked. I was angry. I got so good at like swallowing anger. I'm just like, no, that's not, cause I can't feel that. I'm supposed to be like happy and chipper and grateful and focused on the good like all the time that like negative emotions are something that like a man can express. But like I don't. And that was never overtly sad. It was so.
underlying but
Becky Mollenkamp (12:44.302)
Well, I think those powerful to put tiny because I think about the times when I do get angry and so often it's usually I'm actually disappointed or embarrassed and anger shows up instead because that emotion feels a little easier in some ways, even though in the same way most women I think we were not given anger, we weren't allowed to have anger. But in some ways,
that feels easier because it feels external. Like my anger, I'm going to have this anger and shoot it out at someone versus dealing with my own disappointment or my own embarrassment. So I think it's interesting you mentioned that. Did you find it, Taina?
Jordan Maney (13:10.673)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:22.303)
I did, I did. she talks about how there's one specific line where she says anger is loaded with information and energy. And then at the beginning of the piece, and this is actually a speech that she gave at like the National Women's Studies Association Conference. And she's talking specifically about how women respond to racism and, know, Audre Lorde, black lesbian. This was, think in the seventies, maybe late seventies or early eighties, 1981 in Connecticut.
Jordan Maney (13:30.695)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:52.631)
And so she's this black lesbian woman invited to speak to what I'm assuming is a majority white audience, right? Given the time and also given the context of what she says in her speech. But there's this one paragraph, I'm just gonna read it really quickly or try to paraphrase it where she says, my anger is a response to racist attitudes and the actions and presumptions that arise out of those attitudes.
And then she says, my anger and your attended fears about that anger are spotlights that can be used for growth in the same way that I have used learning to express anger for my growth, but for corrective surgery, not for guilt. Guilt and defensiveness are bricks in a wall against which we all flounder and they serve none of our futures. And so she's talking specifically about how
If you feel guilty about your anger or if someone responds to your anger with defensiveness, right? It's like, well, why are you angry? Why can't you say that nicer, even though you're calling out racism, right? Which is a conversation that we see happen all the time. You know, when someone is the one who's doing the calling out, other people tend to try to police how that calling out happens.
Jordan Maney (14:51.068)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (15:09.094)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:10.878)
Right. And she's addressing that specifically, you know, and she, she goes on to like list specific examples of that. Like she literally says, so I can put your mind at ease. I'm going to give you some examples of how this has happened in the past. Right. And so, and just thinking about, you know, this idea of just like feeling guilty about your anger or people being defensive against your anger when it's a type of righteous anger, right? Like, obviously we're not talking about like fly off to handle.
like violent kind of anger that is just a trigger response or a trauma response to, you know,
Becky Mollenkamp (15:47.304)
We're talking about rage against your rights being systematically stripped from us. Yes, yes, yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:50.558)
Right, right, right, right. We're not talking about like physical anger. We're talking about, you know, just like being righteously angry about things that are wrong in the world. When people get defensive about that, right? Like it's also a spotlight for that also in that situation, not just for the thing that you're angry about, right? Like it's a way to know where that person is in their journey towards
Jordan Maney (15:51.293)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:21.106)
figuring out how to navigate oppressive systems, you know? like, I think this is really important because sometimes people who, the bleeding hearts, right, that you probably work with a lot, but even in day-to-day situations, right, whether it's with family or friends or even at work, right, if you notice something and you call it out.
Jordan Maney (16:33.094)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:45.49)
and someone gets defensive about how you call that out or just the simple fact that you are calling it out, right? Like that's information for you to know, like whether or not you need to be aligning yourself with this person, right? Like where this person is on their journey so that you can better navigate your relationship with them, right? Like, cause to me it's like, if I'm at work and something problematic happens and I like,
Jordan Maney (16:51.57)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:14.752)
call it out and someone is like, yeah, that just happens all the time. You know, it's just, is what it is. And I'm just like, okay, well you're not my ally. Like, I clearly can't trust you to talk about these things and to be able to step in if something were to happen, right? And so having like approaching those kinds of situations, approaching those feelings and those scenarios in that way is really important for people who are doing activist work or who are trying to be like.
Jordan Maney (17:19.176)
No.
Jordan Maney (17:36.839)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:43.569)
the person in the office or the person in the friend group or in the family who is like the one who is like trying to call attention to the problematic ways in which relationships and systems sometimes or not sometimes but all the time right operate yeah
Jordan Maney (18:03.544)
When you were talking about that, it made me think of...
the one you said the guilt and what was the other one our bricks defensiveness defensiveness I'm thinking about this color wheel I think defensiveness I think a lot of like guilty type ways that people will position themselves when you you call out racism or sexism or homophobia or transphobia
Taina Brown she/hers (18:15.667)
Defensiveness.
Jordan Maney (18:36.806)
I think of that initial defensiveness, a lot of that is wrapped up in shame. And it's interesting to see that reaction from, because it gets, what is it the, God, there's a quote. It'll come to me later, but it's interesting to see how people, instead of being like, my gosh, thank you for checking me. I did not know that what I said or did, I do you feel uncomfortable or was?
a slight against a community and don't intend for that like that type of thing people go into like you don't know me my best friend is blah blah blah blah I would never
Jordan Maney (19:18.312)
And like, where is that coming from? And also when you are the person who is being policed with shame, like the reaction to that can be that anger, can be that rage. it feels like it's shame, like it's two sides, perhaps of the same coin and how the reactions are like.
I think it was Katya, one of my favorite drag queens that talked about and sexual interactions with maybe men who are like not out after it's like after the deed is done so to speak watching when they were worked as a sex worker like watching the ones whose shame would rise up real quick because that's when the danger happens and just seeing how like that is such an imp like
shame is so intrinsic to oppression. It's so necessary to continue to oppress people. If you make people feel ashamed for their bodies, if you make people feel ashamed for the way that they look, if you make people feel ashamed for where they come from, like, and you you really, really put that in people, you'll continue to police yourself. So it's just interesting when you're saying that, just that idea of
how shame, how we learn to react or act with shame based off of like kind of where we are. But yeah, I love that. I love Audre Lorde.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:55.95)
Well, as the white lady in the room, I will say I know the defensiveness thing real, well, because it used to be my M.O. back in the day when I was not a safe person for someone to be around because I was practicing good white feminism without really understanding intersectionality, without really having done any real work beyond being the kind of person who's like, why can't we all just get along? And I love everybody no matter the color and all that kind of stuff, right? Which still very much is rampant and exists.
Jordan Maney (21:16.722)
Hmm.
Jordan Maney (21:20.658)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:25.806)
And I think you're right, Jordan. It's shame. It's shame. It's is fear and shame when you are in that place of defensiveness of, well, but you don't know me and it's not me because he's putting it all back on this self and not being able to see, not being able to step outside of yourself to say, this isn't even about me. This is about systems. This is about the issues and my part inside of that. But me acknowledging those things isn't the same as saying I am bad.
Jordan Maney (21:32.541)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:55.47)
But because we live in such this individualistic world, everything is about me, right? And so I can't hear you talk about these issues without it being like, if you're talking about white people, I'm hearing you, Becky, right? You, Becky. And so then my response to that is like, the shame starts to come up. The fear of being misunderstood, the shame of someone thinking I am bad, I've done bad things, I am bad. And so my response to that like,
Jordan Maney (22:01.298)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (22:06.684)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jordan Maney (22:19.346)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:24.194)
Whenever we're in a shame place, we often grab what is a tool we know and one that we learn, at least as white people, is defensiveness and like this, no, no, no, you're wrong, like gaslighting, all that stuff, because we're trying to shield ourselves from that horrible, because shame is the most, like I'm a big fan too, Taina, of all emotions are valid, and I think all of them actually serve a really good purpose. Shame is one of the only emotions that I say doesn't really serve a good purpose. there can be little places for shaming, right?
Jordan Maney (22:31.183)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (22:37.937)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:52.93)
But not in the way that we think of shame, I don't think. I think it's more of embarrassing can sometimes maybe be like, gonna embarrass you for your bad behavior. But shame is about like me as a person, not what I've done. And I just don't think it's healthy. I don't think it's a good space to be in. And so when you're feeling that you're doing anything to get out of it. So I know that feeling so well as someone who used to like occupy it a lot. I would be like not all white people, right? I would be that person, not me, I'm not like that.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:15.822)
You
Jordan Maney (23:18.992)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:21.026)
that need for the exceptionalism because it allows me to not feel shameful, right? It's not helping. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:24.73)
Yeah. I think the interesting thing though is like, obviously we don't know unless you have like an intimate relationship with someone like an incredibly intimate relationship, you're not really going to know someone like fully and even an intimate relationship. So like, mean, my wife and I have been together both married and married for a little over 11 years now. And I still feel like there are things about her that just puzzle me. I'm just like,
Jordan Maney (23:25.212)
Yeah, that's such a great point.
Jordan Maney (23:41.512)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:53.904)
What? Like, who are you again? But, right, right, we can never really fully know anyone but ourselves. But I think even in those moments where people do get defensive, whether it's because of shame or not, I think, I just recall so many instances where I have, someone has responded to me, right? Usually a lighter skinned person, usually white, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (23:57.422)
We don't know anyone but ourselves, really.
Jordan Maney (23:59.271)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:22.873)
or like a white Latino or something. And I know that it's coming from that place of like, well, you don't know me. And I'm like, but you just showed me part of yourself. Like you just showed me a little bit of who you are by how you responded to me, right? By what you said or by your body language or your facial expression. And so there are these like little ways that we show the world who we are.
by how we respond to situations and circumstances. it's like, sure, that may not be the fullness of who you are. And I get it. There are times where I have what most people would call gut reactions. It's your go-to. That's how you respond or react before you have a chance to think about what actually happened and what you really want to say or what you really want to do.
But the thing is that those things, those reactions are so intrinsically tied to who we are. Those reactions form out of habit. And habit comes from a place of doing the same thing over and over again because of who you are, because of the things that you believe, because of the way that you feel like you should be responding.
or the way that you feel like is necessary for you to respond to other people and the world around you. And so, and I feel like this conversation is getting like really meta and like really philosophical or deep, yeah, I mean, I have, I mean, I have like just one example that just keeps coming to mind, which I won't really get into because of time and it's just unnecessary, but I think.
If we want to show the world, right, like the best parts of who we are, then it's important to take that time to rest, to understand how we're feeling.
Jordan Maney (26:18.235)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:21.152)
I was going to say is, can I just quickly one more, just as the person on the room who is like not like the others, right? Like one of these things is not like the other. I just wanted to say, as you're talking about these things and me having talked about the defensiveness, what comes on the other side of that then is I'm basically taking my shame and putting it onto you, right? Like I'm throwing it you. I can't deal with this shame. Well, I'm going to make you deal with it instead, right? And because I have that privilege to be able to do that.
Jordan Maney (26:21.379)
I wanted to, go ahead, go Becky. Yeah.
Jordan Maney (26:30.439)
Thank you.
Jordan Maney (26:40.529)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:48.238)
then you're in that position. And all I can say is that as I'm hearing you to talk about these things, I'm thinking, oh, that feels so heavy. Like it just feels so heavy. What a weight. And all of these interactions, the additional work. And again, this is where misogynoir is so important. And white women have got to understand and learn these things because, yeah, I deal with my interactions with men and all of the weight that comes up with that. And I get that. And that is real. And I don't also have to have every interaction in my life.
Jordan Maney (26:55.655)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:17.302)
be filtered through this, like, what does that, what did that glance mean? What did that shift of the head mean? What did that like, you know, as you're describing that, it's like literally every interaction, you don't get a safe space other than with other black women to be able to be like, Okay, I can breathe here and know that I'm safe. Like I get to have that when I'm with you, you don't get to have that when you're with me. And what heaviness that is, which brings us to so Jordan.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:20.764)
. .
Jordan Maney (27:23.409)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:44.684)
Talk about rest as resistance, Trisha Hersey, which you mentioned in that episode, and why that's so important for black women.
Jordan Maney (27:50.817)
Okay, even when you said you don't get safe spaces, unless it's with other black women, I was like, and then you have some black women who are homophobic and transphobic and you have some black. So like, it's it's you're constantly like sussing out space. And one thing that's still relevant and to the point that I'm trying to make with rest as resistance to what y'all were saying earlier, when I dipped my toe into DEI, I like really dipped my toe and then I was like, that's not the first step.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:01.326)
Absolutely.
Jordan Maney (28:20.124)
I had this program called White People Rehab. I love that name so much. I will die on that hill. It was such a fun name. But I noticed that I had a lot of hashtag well-meaning white women in the group. And getting over that initial like when you are called in or called up or called out.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:24.852)
Okay.
Jordan Maney (28:41.596)
The translation isn't this was done or said, and I need you to make amends for it. The translation was I'm a bad girl. I'm a bad girl. And like you said, you want to take the shame, you feel the shame come on to you. It's not being thrown on to you. But we live in a very punitive world. don't know. We don't have like restorative justice. We don't really even have justice.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:45.768)
. .
Jordan Maney (29:11.898)
in this country, y'all. We have accountability from a punitive lens. I remember growing up, and this was never in churches where my dad preached, but other churches, especially when I was in college that I went to, where people would stand up horrifically. If they were teens and they had sex or somebody got pregnant, they would stand up and the accountability felt more like a stony.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:33.647)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (29:41.245)
then it felt like, dang, that's not really in line with what we do here, but I love you and we got your back type thing. so, so a lot of times when we feel called out, when we feel exposed, when we feel singled out, when someone says you did something, we hear, I'm a bad girl. That's the worst thing growing. When you're socialized in patriarchy, that's the worst thing to be told that you're a bad girl because bad girls get treated worse.
And so I think sometimes like, cause they deserve it, right? So sometimes it's like, oh no, I don't want the bad thing to happen to me. So it's like a push, I'm gonna push that shame back onto you. It's your fault. Like I didn't have anything to do with it. And that's such a very interesting like defense mechanism because in that way, one, you never have to feel.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:12.012)
because they deserve it.
Jordan Maney (30:33.672)
And two you never have to acknowledge that there are parts of yourself That you didn't see because Tiana you said like you know, you can never really know anybody I think you said you never really know anybody other than yourself And then I wanted to say and a lot of times we don't even fully know ourselves Right there. I was telling this to a friend. I was like self-perception is so incomplete because you can think of yourself of like as one way and then
someone else gets another angle of you, somebody else, a friend gets this, a partner gets this, a coworker gets this, those are all still sides of you. And the reason why, you know, did, I think I did white people rehab for about six months and I was like, we're not getting through this first hump. Like people are not able to absorb like this first part because they don't know how to be in their bodies. They do not know how to sit with an emotion.
They do not know how to sit with thoughts that are not fun sometimes. They know how to keep it moving, but in such a way where they're ignoring a whole other aspects of themselves, which is like the connection between your mind and your body and your spirit. And so for me, when we talk about like rest as resistance and when we even look at resistance movements historically, especially black resistance movements historically.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:44.846)
Okay. Okay.
Jordan Maney (31:58.653)
There has always been an element of connecting to something outside of yourself, something bigger than yourself. Civil rights movement heavily influenced by the Black church, right? Not saying that's what we need here right now. But Juneteenth started with a hoodoo ritual. The Haitian Revolution started with a hoodoo ritual. I'm not saying again, I'm not trying to prescribe to you.
any one belief system or something, but sometimes that belief is just believing in a future. Sometimes that connecting to something outside bigger than yourself is connecting to humanity. And I often feel like rest is one of those ways where we recognize our own limitations and our own mortality and it's an opportunity and a space to pause so that we can refuel.
so that we can get some perspective, so we can review, so we can reassess, so we can reevaluate, so we can check in with ourselves and be like, yo, are you good? Are you feeling okay there, buddy? You're kinda acting up. Is everything okay? And the bigger part of rest as resistance is that when you really give yourself, allow yourself to even imagine, maybe you're in a position where you can't fully yet.
but to even imagine like rest for yourself, you also recognize that like the idea of doing this alone is a lie. There's no resistance that's like, my God, it's all on me. And we're still in that head space in the United States right now. Like it's just gonna be a bunch of rugged individualism and there's no collective like action thought.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:34.686)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:44.193)
Taina Brown she/hers (33:50.96)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (33:53.065)
Um, there's no, how do I, in telling people who are in that space very similarly of, you called me out and I have to throw this back onto you, who are in that space of like, oh, I just woke up and I'm ready to go do some stuff. And it's like, hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up. Do you even know where you're going? Do you even know? Um, I saw this, I don't want to say it's adorable, but I saw this with some of the, um, no Kings protests where.
You know, people had never organized before we're making websites with registration.
Little registration tabs, put your name and your address and your email. Baby, what are you doing? That's so dangerous. That's not how that's not it. But like you go into like I have to act. So I'm going to be you go into like efficiency mindset. And what you need to go into is slower and in a lot of ways more annoying because you want to have a quick solution, especially here. We always want to have a quick solution, especially when things are as scary as they are.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:30.895)
No, no, no, that's dangerous. That's state sanctioned. Basic election.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:46.636)
No.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:59.262)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Maney (34:59.698)
How do we fix this quickly versus how do we actually fix this? Because quick solutions, that's duct tape. Duct tape don't, go ahead, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:09.774)
but also that, yeah, what feels like a white response in that it suddenly feels urgent to white people, where it's like, no, this is insane.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:09.802)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (35:15.644)
Yeah. What's that? What's that, JG? What, what worse? It's my money and I want it now. It's my country and I want it now. Like I want it fixed right now. And it's like, you.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:16.896)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:21.311)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:21.838)
Right? Well, eight, one, three. It's because we're finally affecting white people. And so now they're like, this is urgent, but this is hundreds, this is centuries. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:24.512)
Yeah, well, I think people mistake.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:31.158)
This is, yeah, been going on longer, longer than your social security check. Well, I think sometimes people mistake efficiency for simplicity, right? And I think, I know I do that all the time. I'm like, well, what's the most efficient way to do that? Because that'll be the easiest, but that's not always the simplest, most like sustainable way to move. Something, something, I was gonna say, like, I'm so glad you brought up this.
Jordan Maney (35:32.347)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (35:39.901)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:42.175)
Mmm, so true.
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (35:49.191)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:59.606)
connection between the mind and the body because I think when it comes to understanding your rage, understanding your anger and any kind of emotion, like we grow up, like we live in a society that is so mind-body detached, right? It's that whole premise of like, I think therefore I am, right? This like elevation.
Jordan Maney (36:15.474)
So mind-body detached, my god.
Jordan Maney (36:21.776)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:24.043)
almost worship of like rationality of like logic of like being in your mind and thinking through things instead of feeling your way through things and not that those two things are in opposition to each other like those two things work in tandem and I think that's what we get wrong right like we live in a culture where it has to be one or the other as opposed to well how do these two things interact with each other and it's one of the reasons why like I
started looking for somatic training because I was seeing, well, one for me, I have a big mind-body detachment myself, right? But I was also noticing with a lot of clients that I'm working with, there is a sense of mind-body detachment because we grow up in this culture where it's like, no, you're supposed to think, you're supposed to think your way through things and feeling your way through things feels dangerous.
Jordan Maney (37:04.401)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (37:21.724)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:22.003)
It feels unsafe, right? Because we're so not used to feeling our way through things. We're so not used to understanding where our feelings are coming from, how to manage those feelings, and then how to think about those feelings, right? And so this premise of like that rugged individualism that you were talking about, right? Like that it's all tied up with that.
as well, right? Like if you can think your way through it, then you don't need anybody else because it's just your mind that's doing the work.
Jordan Maney (37:51.09)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (37:58.749)
Which is so crazy to say out loud. Because this is impacting so many more people than just one person. But people approach it from that way of like, okay, well, I'm gonna do what I can. Never, I'm going to do what I can with other people. I'm going to do what I can and be like, okay, well, I tried.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:10.483)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (38:24.658)
That's just, I was looking at my phone for a moment because I read this on Substack by Jamila Bradley. Joy is a strategy, the white leftist struggle with spirit. And I will give y'all the link. It's such a good read. Cause she talks about how in other resistance movements, particularly resistance movements that have impacted people of color, queer people of color.
There has to be something outside of your present circumstances that keeps you going. It can't all be logic. It can't all be efficiency. It can't all be rationale because that's not how humans function. Like, nobody...
Taina Brown she/hers (39:09.346)
Mm hmm.
Jordan Maney (39:14.662)
Rationale wasn't what got us here. Justifying bad stuff is what got us here. divorcing yourself, yeah, divorcing yourself from like the feeling of it is what got us here. That's not gonna be the solution out of this. And so it's slower to get people to understand that. it's one of the things, talking about rest as resistance, it's one of the things that I'm...
Taina Brown she/hers (39:16.413)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (39:22.188)
Which is illogical.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:28.877)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (39:44.489)
I don't wanna say struggling with, but I'm wrestling with is the idea that amidst so much urgency, I as a single human being cannot fix every single thing, that urgent thing that is happening right now. How do I make peace with my limitations, make peace with my...
my finite capacity and how do I work with other people on those issues in a way that I can sustain. Because if I get to a place where I am so burned out on helping, on caring, on giving, I don't want to do it anymore, how is that helpful? I think a lot of people get so.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:33.353)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (40:37.446)
the action is present now. That they're not, I hope I say this in a way that people understand, don't intentionally misunderstand. How do I do, how do I get everything done now so that I don't feel uncomfortable in the future is where a lot of people are coming from. And my approach is, I know that these issues are decades long in solution. Not because I want them to be, not because of people suffering.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:38.345)
You
Jordan Maney (41:05.97)
from these, want them to be, but because of the power structures that we're coming up against. How can I both help now and be ready to help in the future?
That's a different pace. And I know I'm not tiptoeing here. I'm trying to use like a scalpel. I know that there are people who hear, rest as resistance means rest that bypasses what's happening right now. They hear an opt out. They hear, I'm gonna take a nap, girl. I don't have to engage with what's going on right now. I can just, you know.
What was that? What was that baby's name? Rip Van Winkle, the one who fell asleep and like woke up five or 10 years later. I could just like be on snooze mode the whole time. It's like, that's not the point. Like do what you need to do. Do your inner work right now. And not right now, but do your focus on like how you want to move forward with the changes that are going to be here 10, 20, 30 years from now.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:11.661)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:12.386)
Yeah, this is the perfect.
Jordan Maney (42:13.7)
And, okay, sorry, sorry, and localize it. Please localize it. Like, that is where one, you're going to have the most impact and the thing that you can you can touch and show up to. My friend, Juanita Torres, low key. I'm really hoping this becomes president if we still have the United States.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:17.108)
No, no, no!
Jordan Maney (42:41.764)
or whatever the new country is going to be called. I hope she becomes president or least you have staff to a president. She's so freaking brilliant. But I remember this quote that she told me in like 2020 when they go low, we go local.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:53.948)
Hmm. Okay.
Jordan Maney (42:55.632)
Where is your energy, attention, and time most going to benefit you, this cause? It's locally. How can you show up there? And a lot of times people think local isn't enough because these big things are happening on a federal level. But when our cities and our states are like, nah.
There's power there. So anyways, go ahead, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:24.27)
because this is a perfect place to bring up something I want that my left turn but it's not a left turn now which is you mentioned.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:29.352)
Well, can I say something real quick before you veer yourself a little bit? Well, I just want to point out that even that idea of people thinking that rest is bypassing the work, that's still operating within a, it has to be one or the other thing instead of looking at rest as part of the process of doing the work. Right? And so I just want to make that clear. Rest is part of the process. Rest is part of the work. It's not in an
Jordan Maney (43:40.752)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (43:48.705)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jordan Maney (43:55.528)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:57.892)
It's not antithetical to the work. It's part of the work.
Jordan Maney (43:59.783)
It's not at all. And when people think that, I always like to kinda agitate a little bit and ask, where did you learn that from? Who benefits from you being unrested? Where has that ever, like what, who's lying to you about the fact that they pick themselves up by their bootstraps and like,
Taina Brown she/hers (44:15.835)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (44:27.954)
They just hustled it out, not that their daddy gave them an emerald mind. Mine, excuse me.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:32.814)
Well, that's exactly where I want to go because yes and yes, yes, yes. And we have to take an intersectional approach to this conversation that you're talking about around bypassing and it being part of the work and all that, because there's a lot of discourse going on threads where I hang out. And I'm sure everywhere about the idea of rest as resistance. And yet again, white women coming in and trying to co-opt that concept and use that concept.
Jordan Maney (44:39.228)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (44:47.879)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:55.495)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (45:01.202)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:02.406)
And there's, we have to look at privilege, right? And, and oppression and who needs rest and how much rest because yes, I'm a woman. I need rest. I, know, I have, I have a fight and I've been fighting, but my fight looks very different. How long have I been fighting? How long have my ancestors been fighting? What is the ancestral trauma that I've inherited? What is, you know, that epigenetic piece of this, the daily, what do I face and not face that part around the extra
Jordan Maney (45:10.194)
care.
Jordan Maney (45:18.408)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (45:31.298)
weight and burden that certain people have to carry that other people don't based on privilege that causes a true need for more rest. It's fucking exhausting to have to spend every moment of every day with every interaction having to evaluate harm. And if I'm not having to that with every interaction, every moment, every day, I have a little less need for rest, right? And I think it's just so important that we acknowledge too, like, because I think too often white women here
Rest is resistant, I'm a good white liberal and I'm part of the resistance because I went to a protest. I need to take a nap, right? Like, and not to belittle like napping, we all need to stop. But you can't just show up and say as a white woman, but rest is resistance. And so I'm part of the resistance because I'm at home napping all day. Really? Are you part of the resistance? Are you showing up or are you bypassing your responsibility here? Because I do think in certain cases,
Jordan Maney (46:02.205)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:09.642)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:26.594)
that rest is resistance can be bypassing if you're not looking at it through that lens of what are my overlapping identities? Where do I have privilege and where do I not? And am I leaning into that privilege a little bit by saying, I'm just gonna take a nap and excuse myself from, because it doesn't really end up affecting me if nothing happens, right? So yeah, what are your thoughts about that? Because that's a big discourse I'm noticing lately around white women suddenly wanting to be a part of the resistance by resting.
Jordan Maney (46:37.169)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:42.114)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Maney (46:44.616)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (46:56.504)
I think that's something that I'm wrestling with in general because there's the intersectional lens of it. also you might be in a season in your life where there's chronic health issues, divorces, deaths in families, all these other types of things that are impacting you. And so I think when I think about
rest as resistance, it's an opportunity to evaluate like where you are and how much capacity you have to give at this point, right? For anybody. And then I think about like based off of that capacity, how am I showing up? And I think where a lot of hashtag well-meaning white women get messed up is the idea that like rest is like a pass.
Like, well, I really do need to like rest and it's not because of I'm really going through something or health or anything like that. It's to avoid. And so where I am trying to what I'm trying to untangle for myself personally and so that I can communicate is knowing the difference between when you are resting to avoid and when you are resting to sustain and what that
looks like because I think some I know that there are a lot of people who don't want to do the uncomfortable work of being called out showing up putting your body in places that might be unsafe or dangerous even if it's just the perception of not being in a safe place even if it's the perception of danger and a an interpersonal situation right like Taina you said at work and realizing someone is not safe after
I said this. There are people who feel that shame so fast they lock up and they're like unsafe unsafe unsafe unsafe right? I think it's interesting to see the people and I
Jordan Maney (49:10.0)
Maybe I'll save that for another podcast. I'll save that for another episode when I come back. But like, I do think it's interesting that people that I've seen who said like, girl, I'm resting. I'm out on this one. And it was like, you were never showing up. Anything before? What are you talking about? You rested. No, you wasn't. You've been resting, babes, you've been out. And so like, how do you how to how can we better define?
Taina Brown she/hers (49:32.029)
You've been resting.
Jordan Maney (49:40.597)
One, rest. Two, how do we better define the difference between when we're doing it to avoid something with the intention to avoid something and when we're doing it to survive and sustain. And I think it's a fine line because sometimes there are going to be moments in life when things are incredibly urgent on a global, national, regional scale, right? And you ain't got it.
You don't have the capacity for it. And so like, I'm not going to guilt or shame you if you say, I can't show up for that right now. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:11.544)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (50:22.428)
I, for me, and sometimes when I hear that type of reaction, Becky, it still feels like there's like that shame piece to like, wake up bitches, like we've got work to do, which is like great. And at the same time, like no one's going to be shamed into positive action. Like most people don't, shame is like not a sustainable motivator. It might.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:30.852)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (50:33.742)
Thanks
Becky Mollenkamp (50:50.37)
For sure. For sure.
Jordan Maney (50:51.302)
Like it might get you up, it might get you out for a second, but it's not gonna sustain anything. like, and at the same time when you're saying this, and I'm saying all this to say like, I don't have a clear answer. I remember going to, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:04.488)
But I love what you said about discomfort, about like our avoidance, because I think it goes back to what we were talking about with white women and white women have been, the privilege that we hold allows us to move through life with very little discomfort. And that can be so hard for white women to hear because we think we do move through life with a lot of discomfort. And I'm not saying there isn't discomfort. I have been sexually assaulted. I know the discomforts of living in a world with men very, very well.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:06.862)
you
Jordan Maney (51:15.144)
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Maney (51:19.111)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:31.99)
I also know, especially the more that I learn and I surround myself with people with different lived experiences, that I also my proximity to whiteness and the white male need to protect white women. I also know the great deal of privilege that I hold and that has allowed me to avoid so much discomfort. I've had discomfort.
But I also know there's so much discomfort I have avoided that I don't realize that for the longest time I didn't realize I had been avoiding. So my discomfort felt very real until I saw, shit, you mean there's these other women who are dealing with all these other things on top of that same discomfort I've been dealing with? That discomfort alone felt so fucking heavy. How are they dealing with this on top of that, right? So like that.
Jordan Maney (52:08.2)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (52:12.966)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:14.07)
And we don't know how to be in discomfort. It's awful because we don't have to very much. Right. And I think that's that key difference where because we've never had to, we don't know how to be with it. And when it comes up, we we have the privilege to opt out. And so, like, I get you, I don't want to shame people, but I also think white women need to sit with some of this and think about it because I have been guilty of some of this propaganda around rest is resistance. I try to mostly do that for clients of mine who are black women, who are queer women, who are. But
Jordan Maney (52:16.914)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (52:28.263)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (52:33.693)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:33.889)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:43.726)
I've also used it with white women and needing to do a little more like through this lens of intersectionality to be, we need to start getting real honest with ourselves as white women. How much rest do I actually need? Yes, I need rest. I'm not saying we don't, but my needs are probably different because also I don't have 400 years of ancestral trauma. I don't, and again, like that way we move around the world.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:03.427)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (53:04.04)
Yeah. And I think also like, okay, so that's a question that comes up, has come up so many times. It's like, well, like, am I resting too much? Am I doing too much? How much rest do I actually need? That's answer between you and your body. I can't answer that for you. So my approach is less like, and I think it's also because like, my approach is less, I'm not going.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:14.439)
you you
Jordan Maney (53:35.251)
police these folks because my approach is based off of like who's showing up. More than likely the people who are comfortable with stopping at like, Rest in Substance and I'm gonna rest my ass right over here and y'all do what you gotta do over there and I'm fine over there. They're never gonna listen to me anyways and I don't, my work probably isn't for them. They stop at that like, I get a pass. I feel like a lot of times and I have to qualify more.
I have to be better about qualifying because then people do hear that and think like, it's easy street. For people who don't take breaks, for people who like executive directors of nonprofits who are also impacted by the cause that they're trying to fix with their nonprofit and feel like I can't stop. It's for the people who are so afraid to take their foot off the gas because they think everything will fall apart with that out them that need
Taina Brown she/hers (54:12.098)
Yeah. .
Jordan Maney (54:34.844)
that need these breaks. Everybody needs rest. Rest is a right. is a necessity. I'm not the radical joy police. I'm not gonna tell somebody like, girl, you don't, cause I don't know your individual situation. Yeah, I don't know your individual situation, right? And rest is so many things. Rest is socializing with your friends. Rest is taking a walk in the park. It's not just sleeping.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:42.402)
Yeah.
You're resting the wrong way.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:01.983)
Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Maney (55:03.816)
So I'm not gonna police what an individual person needs, but I'm going to talk to the people who are showing up and the people who like gently, lovingly have put so much blood, sweat and tears into stuff already that like, yo, you can take a break. You can take a long break if you want.
You can take a short break if you want. Like I'm not here to judge which direction you go on that. But that is available to you because if we, when I hear the like, you don't need that much, it feels like a pendulum swing and it still doesn't. The point is to work to live in a world where people can get what they need. I can't tell you what you need. Even,
Taina Brown she/hers (55:38.848)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:53.952)
Yeah.
Jordan Maney (55:58.479)
As a white lady, I can't say, girl, you only need eight hours and then I need you back in these streets like picketing or something like that. I can't do that. You can. I can't do that. Go ahead, Tanya.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:04.79)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:06.092)
I'll say it then.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:08.053)
Yeah. Well, think, well, I think, yeah. No, was going to say, I think that brings up, you know, a really good point that like a lot of times when people hear rest, they think you're not doing anything. That is the absence of doing things. And there's so many different ways to rest, right? There's creative rest, right? Like if you're a writer or a painter or a poet, like engaging in some of those creative activities can feel really restful for you. That doesn't mean that you're not doing something. It means that you're filling yourself up.
Jordan Maney (56:25.16)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:37.036)
with something that's gonna help you thrive in the future. Rest is not always the absence of activity. It's leaning into the things that help you feel like a whole human being. So when you engage with the world outside of yourself, you're better equipped and you're better able to sustain that engagement. I wanna say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:58.446)
Can I just quickly say one quick thing because it's really I just love thinking of rest as short for restorative because then that changes. It's anything that feels restorative like you were saying that brings you back to yourself. So that does exactly can look like anything. Sometimes it can be really hard things too. Like I think it can be exercising when you don't feel like it or you moving your body. I feel like it because it brings you back to you. So anyway sorry.
Jordan Maney (57:05.064)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:09.227)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:14.485)
Yeah.
Therapy. Yeah. Yeah, therapy is a form of rest, right? It's type of emotional rest, like being able to come back to yourself. Anyway, as we're wrapping up, I want to say, I'm glad you brought up this concept of intersectionality when it comes to a concept like rest. Because, Becky, because I think a lot of times when people hear intersectionality, they think, because we exist in a binary world,
where things are mutually exclusive and there's this rugged individualism where it's like, if it's not me, it's you, right? Where things are so opposing. When they hear intersectionality and they think, well that means this person's getting something, which means I'm not getting what I need. But the beauty about intersectionality is that it's dynamic, it's contextual. You getting what you need does not invalidate the fact that somebody else also might need something different.
Jordan Maney (57:53.096)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (58:15.391)
and still has their needs. And them getting their needs met doesn't invalidate the fact that you also have needs, that you need to get met. And that is missing in a lot of conversations about intersectionality because of the way that conservatives, the right, the quote unquote anti-woke agenda, right, whatever you want to fucking want to call it, has co-opted intersectionality and framed the conversation around it to be so far.
from what it originally came from. And so if your understanding of intersectionality is like, it's only about black people, or it's only about white women, or excuse me, only about black women, then you have missed the point, right? Like you have been misinformed about what intersectionality is, because it's really about how all of us exist in a way where these intersections create gaps.
and us being able to get our needs met, regardless of your race, your gender, your sexuality, you know, like how you identify and how others perceive you in the world.
Jordan Maney (59:13.298)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jordan Maney (59:23.846)
Yeah. One of the things that I've been talking about more is rest equity and how like we've created laws in this country about when people are allowed to rest at work and our, I'm in Texas, our governor don't even get me started. Voted on a law last... Girl.
Taina Brown she/hers (59:46.932)
Good old Governor Abbott.
Jordan Maney (59:50.857)
voted on a law last year that limited the amount of water and water breaks that construction workers and people who work outside can take in Texas. In Texas. So like, it, when we have this con, it's, it's evil. It's just evil. When we have these conversations around rest and we have these conversations around intersectionality, about rest from an equity lens, from
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:05.8)
That's Voldemort level behavior.
Jordan Maney (01:00:20.74)
to Becky's point, talking about it from a place of how do we help those who have probably never felt that, have never felt restful or restored? How does that work of reclamation tie into this? And that's, I think, where the starting point for my work is how to help you reclaim yourself in all of this.
in a machine that's gonna keep grinding, right? But how can we stop grinding ourselves?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:55.532)
Mm-hmm. That's a great way.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:57.23)
This was such a good convo. We could talk forever. You're right. We can have you back. I know there's so much like talking about the different kinds of rest was something I wanted to get into. we because you have a thing about like actual buckets of rest. But we don't have time. And that was amazing. And I want this to be required listening, viewing for white women, especially who are still in some of that. Because I think so much of the talk around the defensiveness and
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:01.628)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:22.764)
I just, know there's parts of this that many white women who are still earlier in their learning journey and their unlearning journey and their reclamation journey, whatever, they need that. They need to hear some of this. I just think it's so important, but also I'm sure, you know, for black women to also hear and remember rest, rest is resistance. Thank you for being here.
Jordan Maney (01:01:41.938)
Yeah. Thank you all for having me.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:42.933)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and if you have not checked out Jordan's podcast, it's amazing. Great. Rebecca and I were just talking about you have such a great podcast voice. It's so soothing. And the fact that it's about rest. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:51.725)
Rest well.
Jordan Maney (01:01:55.912)
I put my MPR voice on. Thank you. Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:59.298)
You'd do a great job of it. They should have hired you.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:02:02.078)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the fact that it's about breasts too is like...
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02:03.886)
Yeah, so we'll link it in the show notes.
Jordan Maney (01:02:07.72)
Good. Okay. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02:07.79)
You're like a big warm hug. We'll put it in the show notes rest lab and your sub stack as well. So thank you.
Jordan Maney (01:02:15.593)
Perfect, thank y'all for having me.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:02:15.848)
Yeah.
Thank you.