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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our
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So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
My guest today is Eric Robertson,
who was a family lawyer, a read into
that divorce read into that warring
family, civil war within families,
frequently, sadly, and has now
become a family therapist in Austin.
Kind of drawing on that experience
from the trenches of trying to resolve
conflict rather than exacerbate
conflict, and has now taken that into
work specifically in the male domain.
We've had a feminist movement over
the last century, but we haven't
really had any equivalent movement for
males, and I think we're seeing the.
Results of that in both my
generation of males and the younger
generations of males as well.
There is a, there is a, a sort of
disorientation perhaps, I think
is the easiest way to put it.
So I'm really intrigued to have
Eric come and give us his insights
over a lifetime of working in
the field of conflict resolution.
So if you've, if you've been
through a divorce, if you've gone
through a divorce, if you're going
through a divorce, listen up.
If you are a, a male who
feels, what's my place?
How, how am I even relevant these days?
Listen up.
Eric has a lot to say on these things.
So, Eric, thank you for coming on.
Can you just give us a bit of a
bio on, you know, who you are and
Eric Robertson: how you've arrived
at
Rupert Isaacson: this point?
Eric Robertson: Well, I've, I've made
a securous route to where I am today.
I started out years ago thinking
I wanted to be a psychologist.
I was in a graduate program working toward
a PhD, and I was married at the time
and my wife got accepted to law school.
So I took my master's in psychology at
that point and moved with her to Austin,
Texas so she could go to law school.
I used to hang around at the law
school with her thinking, well,
you know, this is pretty good gig.
Maybe I ought to try this.
So right after she finished, I went
to law school, and from day one
after I got my license, I started
practicing divorce work and family
law work, and did that for 33 years.
And there was something about the
conflict and everything that's going
on in a divorce that at some point
made me rethink where I was headed.
And made me think about
the, what had taken me into
psychology in the first place.
So I went back to school and, and got
another master's degree in clinical
mental health counseling and am now
practicing as a licensed professional
counselor associate in Austin, Texas
with a focus on doing work with men and
some marriage and family counseling.
You know, seeing how people act in
divorces was really eye-opening to me.
As you can imagine in your listeners,
probably can imagine men and women go
through that prop a process differently.
And what I saw was pretty
normal from my perspective with
regards to women, but with men.
They weren't doing a very
good job going through it.
They weren't expressing the emotion
that women did at the process,
and it really made me think
about what's going on with men.
And that kinda led to my interest
in, in doing, doing the kind of
work that I, I do now with men.
And I wanna share with your listeners
some facts that may surprise them
or, or may, they may not, if they're,
they're going through this kind of
process or if I've lived some of this.
But as anybody that's watched the news
knows, boys and men are experiencing
higher levels of loneliness and
mental health risks than ever before.
Some of these facts come from the
American Institute of Boys and Men.
But 15% of young men have recently
reported not having a close friend.
That's a fivefold increase
from what it was in 1990.
Now, when I grew up and when you
grew up, we probably had mates
and friends that we were close
to, and we developed friendships.
That's not happening now.
And there's, you know, there's a
number of reasons we can talk about
but that, that, that doesn't happen.
And, and the question is, why is that
important as we look at what's going
on with, with men, and the reason it's
important is that men are four times
more likely to die by suicide than women.
That, and when I learned that that's a, I
thought that's a pretty astounding fact.
In, in 2023, it was reported that
80% of suicides were men, and
that men were far less likely to
seek any kind of help for that.
Than, than women are.
And you think about that.
So in 2023, it's reported that
39,000 men died from suicide.
In the US worldwide
that number was 535,000.
That's an astounding number and it shows
what's going on in our society with men.
Loneliness and isolation may seem sad
to some people, but their health risks
young men often feel disconnected
from their community and emotional.
They have no emotional support.
And that contributes to anxiety
and depression and all sorts
of other mental health issues.
So, and I wanted to know why is
it that men don't get out there
and get the help they need?
And I think there's, a
number of reasons for that.
Statistically, 67% of teenage boys between
the ages of 15 and 17 reported struggling
with something emotional, but didn't
feel they needed any professional help.
70% didn't even know what a
mental health professional was.
So there's a lack of education in our
society, in American society especially
about what to do when, when you're having
mental health issues when it comes to men.
We don't, we don't, you know, we,
we, we recognize that in women,
but we don't recognize that in men.
A lot of it's because men show
up differently than women do.
When there's mental health issues
society, societal messages play into that.
The Man up, men don't cry.
Work through it.
Just muscle through it.
Those are, those are the messages
that, that I got growing up.
And I I suspect you did too, Rupert.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Eric Robertson: I, and did, didn't help.
Didn't help.
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
Eric Robertson: The other thing It's
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Go ahead.
Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah.
The other thing is, it was surprising
to me as, as I went into this new
line of work, is that at least in this
country, mental health professionals
are overwhelmingly female dominated.
Ma men make up a minority of, of
the practitioners, psychologists,
psychiatrists, therapists, counselors
I think something like 26% of mental
health professionals currently are men.
26%.
And I don't know about you, but
the likelihood that, that I'm
gonna go in and lay out everything
that's going bad in my life to a.
Another female is probably not
attractive to a lot of men.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Question.
What is the reason why many of these
men or younger men don't even know
what a mental health professional is?
That's surprising to me because
it's so much a part of the
conversation on social media.
Social media is all about
mental health, right?
Eric Robertson: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Everyone talks
about their mental health.
Given that there's that exposure, how does
that, how does that knowledge gap happen?
Eric Robertson: Well, I think
there's a couple reasons for that.
I think the traditionally
men have been.
Trained not to think of about problems
that they have that might require a
mental health professional so they
don't learn about that sort of thing.
I think that is changing.
You're right in, in social media.
That's a, that's a big deal.
And it's, it's changing somewhat, but
I think that the, the messages that,
that go out in social media about
mental health issues and where to
find help for many, many years were
oriented towards, towards females.
And as you mentioned earlier on, you
know, we've had a feminism movement that's
been going on for a number of years.
And, and I don't have anything bad
to say about that, I think in, in,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, no,
it's a necessary thing.
Sure.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a necessary thing.
But men have been left behind and so the
messages often are oriented towards women.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: Not towards men.
And the other thing is, is, as
I'll point out a little bit later,
the, the, the issues that men have.
Although they may be the same
as the issues that women have,
they show up in a different way.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you
elucidate on that a little bit?
How, how do they show up differently?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
The one of the things that that I think
people don't recognize is that there is
a difference between men and women in
terms of how they represent themselves
when mental health issues come up.
The, one of the one of the things that men
tend to do is externalize their emotions,
whereas women tend to internalize those.
And for women that, that
shows up as the, the emotional
outbursts and the psychological.
Feelings of being extremely
depressed and sad were for men.
It, it, it shows up in a different way.
Men show up the psychological
psychologically, they
show up as irritable.
So, they may show a lot of anger.
They have a lot of emotional
numbness or flatness.
We've all heard men, especially
boys, when you ask 'em what's
wrong, they'll say nothing.
It's fine.
I'm fine.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: How are you doing?
Well, I'm, I'm doing okay.
Or I'm, I'm angry that that's,
that's what you get from men.
They're, they're, they tend to be
withdrawn from their relationships
and activities when they get
depressed rather than showing signs
of depression they, they turn that
into overworking and maybe compulsive
productivity and inability to rest.
There's increased risk taking by men.
Okay.
Which you don't see in, in women.
ESCAP.
I've definitely
Rupert Isaacson: been guilty of that.
Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Eric Robertson: Escapism all the,
all the gaming, the porn the doom,
scrolling, isolation, those are
all things that manifest for men in
that's much different than with women.
Do
Rupert Isaacson: you not feel that
women also though, I mean, I've known
women who've been going through mental
health struggles who've absolutely
been extremely irritable and who have
also used those same escapist tactics
the exact same ones you described.
Eric Robertson: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: So
what is the difference?
Because I, I do think one could say
the same about both genders there.
Eric Robertson: Well, I, I think
you could, and I think that
with the advent of social media.
And artificial intelligence mm-hmm.
Everything that's happening to
us digitally, that perhaps those
behaviors are moving closer together.
But generally and historically, I think
that men have responded differently.
And you know, I, I use
depression as a good example.
With women, usually you get a
persistent sadness or tearfulness.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: You have
excessive worry or rumination.
They show signs of guilt and worthlessness
and self blame, fear of abandonment.
Mm-hmm.
Those are not how men exhibit
their depression generally.
They, they generally exhibit
that in a, in a different way.
How, how do
Rupert Isaacson: they, how do men
normally exhibit it, would you say?
Eric Robertson: Well, they exhibit
it with increased conflict with
their partners and families.
Okay.
Emotional distance or checking out
difficult tolerating, perceived criticism
feeling misunderstood, but unable to
explain why they're, they feel that way.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: You know, they,
they talk about being a burden.
They, they start giving away possessions.
When it gets to an extreme you
know, they have, they manifest it
in physical symptoms like headaches,
stomach problems, chronic pain, sleep
problems, fatigue that sort of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: Women are
just, it's more externalized.
And with men, women,
it's more internalized.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But you say that the suicide, figures
are higher for men at this stage.
Yes.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So that's so interesting.
So, yeah.
'cause I, I'm just thinking if, if
I was perhaps not male listening
to this thinking, well, hold on.
You know, I mean, both genders go
through all this kind of thing.
Okay.
You know, it's, we should, yes.
Perhaps, you know, help men out
more, but I think it's good to
bring it down to a bottom line.
If more men are killing themselves,
then clearly we've got a problem.
Are more people are more men killing
themselves than they used to.
That's the, the next thing.
And do we have any
statistics to back that up?
That you know of?
Eric Robertson: I'm
sure they're out there.
I don't know of those I've, I've kind
of focused on the current, current
state of men's lives right now.
Uh mm-hmm.
I think there's always probably
been a skew towards more
suicides in men than women.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: But that, that's something
that would be interesting because it's
Rupert Isaacson: so interesting.
I, I know so many people who've made
suicide attempts, but when I think about
who they are, they're almost all female.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The suicides
that I know of that did it,
just doing a little check here.
I do think, yeah.
I think most of them are men.
It's true.
And what's interesting too is
that some of them were men who
were outwardly quite successful.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it wasn't that they
were necessarily lost boys in
their mom's basement gaming.
They were, they were men who
one thought, well, hold on.
You know, successful life
ticked most of the boxes.
In your therapy.
So in both your family law practice
and your now in your therapy practice,
you must have come across many of these
types of men to the fact that someone
could even afford a divorced lawyer
means that they've reached an economic
bracket where that's even possible, right?
Sure.
Laws are not cheap.
And then now that you are a therapist,
you're kind of presumably often
dealing with the same demographic.
Why are successful men so messed up?
Eric Robertson: I think they're a product
of their own success in some respects.
There's.
I think one of the things you have to
look at is what got them to that point?
What drove them to be successful?
What is it about their upbringing,
their, their childhood, their life
in general that pushes them and
drives them towards that success?
What is it that they're in their
life that they're trying to fill?
And oftentimes what you
see is that these men
succeed and they become successful,
but they're not filling that hole.
They're not getting what
they're really looking for.
Whether that's validation from,
from people that are important
to them or whatever it is.
And is,
Rupert Isaacson: is that, is
that a, a thing that really comes
up a lot validation from people
that are important to them?
Eric Robertson: Yes.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me
about that talk that, that, that,
that's not something I think we
should just let go in passing.
What's I express.
Eric Robertson: I'm sorry,
Rupert Isaacson: what?
What are they expressing
when they say that?
And
Eric Robertson: they
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah, yeah.
They're, they're expressing that
they're, they're doing all this
and, and sometimes it's misplaced,
but they're doing all this.
And the people that are important
to them aren't showing them the
validation that they think they deserve,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Eric Robertson: And oftentimes the people
around them aren't doing that because this
person is working 24 hours a day almost
to succeed, and they are letting their
significant relationships fall apart.
They're not spending the time necessary
to maintain those relationships
or to grow those relationships.
And so they interpret that when people,
their spouse or their family or their
friends don't spend a lot of time
throwing admiration at them as a lack
of validation when in fact they're
probably too busy to receive it.
Most of the time,
Rupert Isaacson: have you suffered from
any of this yourself, would you say?
Eric Robertson: I think there
was a time when that I had those
feelings as well when I was at the
height of my career as a lawyer.
And you know, success is a tricky thing.
You can get to the point when
you're successful that you start
to believe, if you'll pardon the
expression, your own bullshit.
And I, I think that, that that has some
negative impacts on my relationship
with my wife at that point, and
on how I relate to my daughter.
So yeah.
Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: What would you say
in, in your own life, could you put
a number of years on that period and
at what point did you then notice?
I think, and then from
noticing to doing something?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that there was probably a, a
period of about 10 years when I was at
the height of what I would say was a
successful career as a divorce lawyer.
And I was more focused on maintaining
that image than really spending time
outside of my work environment listening
to what's going on with my wife and
what's going on with my daughter.
And I think that that wasn't until maybe
about five years ago when I started
thinking seriously about making a change
in careers that, that it really hit me.
And I think that was one of
the reasons why, why, why
Rupert Isaacson: did it hit you?
Like how did, how was it that you noticed?
Why, why did you think Actually
Eric Robertson: I had a, yeah.
I had a kind of a dissatisfaction
with what I was doing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: As, as you
know, I see clients all I well,
seeing clients all day long and.
Was dealing with not only my client,
but the attorneys on the other side.
And I, I started personalizing what was
happening in my cases, which is a very
dangerous thing for a lawyer to do.
You know, you, I like my clients.
I always like my clients, but you
have to keep a distance between what
you're doing for your client and
your relationship with your client.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Eric Robertson: And I, I started taking
every every accusation that came across
from the other attorney personally.
Not only You hadn't
Rupert Isaacson: done that before.
Eric Robertson: Pardon?
Rupert Isaacson: And you hadn't
done that before, earlier in your
Eric Robertson: career?
I hadn't done that before.
No.
You know, for the first, why did
Rupert Isaacson: it creep up on you?
Eric Robertson: I don't know.
For the first 15 years, it was just
learning the process of being a good
lawyer and going into court and doing
my thing and doing it, almost wrote by
memory, you just had this muscle memory
of what to do in a case and how to do it.
And it was not, not uncommon for me to
get bad things from other attorneys about
my clients, and I would just kind of sh
shuffle those off and not think about it.
But there was a point where I really
started taking that personally, and
it was almost like the accusation
they're making against my client
was a personal reflection of me.
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder why that became
that way if you could, because I, I,
I should imagine that there must be a
lot of men and we, we, we are talking
about men at this point in middle age.
And I think we should you know,
after this, we should, we should
begin to talk about young, the
younger generation too, but just
staying where we are for a moment.
So the majority of your clients would've
been men and middle age, or, and women.
Do you think there's something in
that age bracket that brought you
to this point where suddenly it
was personalized, suddenly you were
taking it like a, a personal attack?
Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah, yeah.
Well, it goes back to what I said earlier.
There was, I was in this mindset
that I was going to be one of the
best divorce lawyers in Austin,
Texas, if not the state of Texas.
And I got myself involved in not only
state organizations that supported that
mindset, but national organizations.
I mean, I got to be a member of
the American Academy of Matrimonial
Lawyers, which is this group of.
Less than 2000 of the best family
law lawyers in the United States.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: And I got to be
on the, on the board for the Texas
chapter of that, and the president
of that and all that kind of stuff
was going to my head and I'm thinking
Rupert Isaacson: basis.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Gosh, I'm, I'm some
level one of the best of the best.
And again, you start believing that stuff
and it drives your life and you, you
think, okay, what's the next thing I can
do to make it even better to show even
more success at, at, at my chosen career?
And it, it takes a hold of you.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think
though that relationships are
always more than one person?
So do you think that also your
wife and your daughter played
into that to some degree?
Were there expectations on you?
Was love.
To some degree con conditional to
you showing up as this sort of,
you know, millionaire provider?
Or did you just perceive that it might
be, or was there even some truth to that?
Were you all
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Playing
into that to some degree?
Eric Robertson: No.
I, I really don't.
I think I was to to use a much
overused term, I was caught up in
my own narcissism at some level.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: And
Rupert Isaacson: it's so interesting
that you say that because I, I've
known you for some years and I last,
I think narcissist is, is the, is the
last word I would use to describe you.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Well I think you, you, you came along
at a time when I had decided that all
of that wasn't really what I wanted.
And of course the other thing that
really helped me was I had a good mentor.
You, you've met him?
Rupert Isaacson: I do know him.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And and, and he was
he was always there reminding me that
the, this is, this is not who you are.
This is what you do.
And there are other things in
life that are more important
than than, than being the best.
Talk to us
Rupert Isaacson: a little bit about Tom.
Because I think, I think one of the things
I'd like to go to in this is mentorship.
I think mentorship is something that
every human needs, like we need oxygen.
And I think particularly for men,
it's kind of fallen by the wayside.
Talk to us about this mental,
Eric Robertson: yeah.
Yeah.
So, when I started practicing family
law, I practiced with my wife.
We, she was a lawyer at the time.
We practiced together for about seven
years and we had an opportunity to go
to work for another family lawyer in, in
Austin, Texas, who had made us the offer.
He was pretty well known as well, been
around for a number of years and said,
look, you guys come to work for me.
I got all these cases coming in, you work
'em, and I'll take a percentage of it.
And I had just tried a case against
Tom in a court just up the road.
And he, he kicked my butt pretty well.
And so to her credit, my wife said, you
know, before we even think about this
offer from this other attorney, why don't
you ask Tom about that and ask him about
this guy, and if this is somebody that
we want to essentially join forces with.
And so I did.
And he, he, you know, as
gracious as he is, he, he came
and picked me up at my office.
When I called him and took me to lunch
and I asked questions about this other
lawyer, and he answered 'em honestly.
And then he drove me back.
And when he dropped me off, he said
before you respond to this lawyer I want
you to think about it for, for 48 hours.
Don't rush in there and pick up the
phone and say yes or no or whatever.
Just think about it.
And I did.
And less than 24 hours later, he called
me back and said I wanna offer you
a job to come over and work with me.
And, and my other partner at that time,
he had one other partner and Tom Practice
law with that partner and his daughter.
And so, you know, I, I talked to
my wife about that and we decided
that's what I wanted to do.
And it was because he was
an incredible gentleman.
The way he dealt with people including
people on the other side of cases.
I tried a case against him that, that one,
I, I mentioned it was very contentious.
I had a very bad client and
he was incredibly gracious to
me through that whole process.
He was able to make the distinction
between my terrible client and the
lawyer who was representing him.
And that, you know, when I came
over and, and, and started working
with him it was, it was just
like stepping into another world.
It, everything didn't
have to be adversarial.
He mentored me on how to deal with
difficult attorneys on the other side,
how to deal with difficult clients,
how to deal with difficult judges.
And that was probably the reason I
rose to the level I did in the family
law practice because of his mentoring.
Rupert Isaacson: I think specifically
what you're, you're talking about
here is conflict resolution, right?
Right.
And we're so used to thinking
of particularly divorces as
defacto conflict escalations.
Couple of questions.
First question, what
makes a terrible client?
You said, I had a terrible client.
Is a terrible client, someone who,
who's going in wanting conflict?
Is, is, is And that is, is that kind
of what makes a terrible client?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Well, let me tell you what, for me,
made a terrible client early on in
my career and how that's changed.
A terrible client.
Early on for me was one that was
not open to taking advice that
did things that just the opposite
of how I advised them to do 'em.
That created bad facts all along the
way, including during their divorce.
They would continue to behave poorly
during the divorce, even though you'd sit
down and explain to 'em that this isn't
gonna come out very well if you continue
doing the kind of behavior you're doing.
Usually the a bad client's
just one that doesn't listen.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
But that's still, that has to come from,
like, you then have to ask the question,
why, why doesn't that person listen?
Right?
If they've hired you, they're, they're
spending all this money on you.
They know deep down that you're
trying to act in their best interest,
Eric Robertson: right?
Rupert Isaacson: So therefore, if
they're not following your advice
on a kind of pathological level,
not perhaps on an impulsive.
Angry in that moment, passionate,
you know, expression of pain thing.
But consistently then surely,
does that not mean that what
they're after is conflict?
Eric Robertson: It could.
It could.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it, you know, there's, I, I recently
wrote a, an article about why revenge
wasn't a good strategy for a divorce.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Eric Robertson: And
Rupert Isaacson: why isn't it?
Tell us.
Eric Robertson: Well, it's, it's
because it never comes out the
way you think it's gonna come out.
You're never gonna get it, number one.
And secondly, at the end of the day,
you're gonna pour all these resources
into trying to get that revenge.
You're not gonna get it, and you're
gonna look back at what you did and
feel incredibly stupid for doing it.
And so, but those clients are out there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And the the choice is
you can continue representing those
clients and continue to give them good
advice and continue to try to get them
to focus on resolving their case rather
than going war to see what happens or
you can terminate your relationship
with them and, and let them move on to
somebody else who will have you done that?
Take their money, take their money,
and do do what they want 'em to do.
Oh, yeah.
The, you know, one of the things
that my mentor told me early on was,
firing a client is never a bad thing.
If you get to the point where you
can't communicate with that client
effectively, and they won't do what's
in their best interest that's not only
good for them, it's good for you that
they, that they move on somewhere else.
Rupert Isaacson: I dunno if it's
Confucius or if it's just an old Chinese
proverb, but it, it's the one that says.
When you begin a journey
of revenge, dig two graves.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And cycles of feud are so interesting
because the, as you know, I've spent some
years living with koan, bushman, hunter
gatherer peoples in Southern Africa.
So I've been lucky enough to see what
the blueprint of human society is.
These are the oldest
societies on the planet.
They predate agriculture, they
predate ownership of things
other than a few personal items.
And they are a very good
advertisement for our species
because they, the entire culture is
based around conflict resolution.
And it really comes to a very practical
thing, which is that if you are living
out there in Africa with a spear.
And your family.
You are not the top of the food chain.
You are mid-level.
And the only thing that will put
you on the top of the food chain
is a community with whom you
can communicate and strategize.
So if conflict within the community and
it will happen, gets beyond a certain
point and the community fragments, then
every single person will be eaten by
hyenas without a shadow of a doubt.
So over about 300,000 years, which
seems to be about as old as this
culture is, and we all from other
ethnic groups share DNA, an old common
DNA with this group of people, that
goes back to a female actually living
in what's now Botswana 60,000 years
ago, which is still relatively recent
by the, the standards of this culture.
About every 10 days they
have a shamanic ceremony.
Where it's kind of like the psychic
dirty laundry of the, of the
group gets a chance to be washed.
So that conflict just doesn't
get beyond a certain point.
And they're really good at this.
And this is the entire focus as soon
as agriculture came in, everything
when the exact opposite direction.
So I think a lot of us feel were,
were sold a bill of goods growing
up that about human nature.
And we were all told that human nature is,
is grasping and selfish and I want mine.
And look at the conquest of the
American West and look at England's
colonial past and look at Rome and you
know, it's all there in front of you.
And while those things.
True.
They're not the whole truth.
And I do think that everybody deep down
actually wants to resolve conflict.
Everybody deep down knows
that it goes nowhere.
Yeah.
But they just can't
get off that bandwagon.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And when you were
a lawyer, I guess you were trying to
advise people to not climb onto that
bandwagon, not burn the house down.
I've, I've heard you say it's
a great term, like resolve this
without destroying everything.
But now you've moved into the therapy
sphere, presumably people are coming
to you specifically for conflict
resolution, or do you see the same cycles
repeated where people are coming in and
they're wanting affirmation from you
for conflicts that they're involved in?
And they're sort of
wanting validation in that.
What, what's, how's your
experience with this?
Eric Robertson: Well, yeah, a,
a little, a little bit of both.
People still come in initially
with with ideas of what they want.
You know, the therapist's
role isn't to tell people what
to do to make things better.
The therapist's role in mind, dammit.
I
Rupert Isaacson: was hoping
you were gonna do that today.
Eric Robertson: The therapist's role is
to try to get people to understand who
they are and how they can resolve and
come up with the strategy strategies to
resolve their own mental health issues.
So, you know, yeah, I, I do work with
people going through divorces and.
They're, they're, they're mad and angry.
Mm-hmm.
And they, they don't like
what's happening to 'em.
They don't like what, what
they're gonna have to give up
to try to settle their case.
And, and we talk about that, but what
we're talking about in the therapy context
is a little bit different than what,
what I used to talk about in the divorce
lawyer context, in therapy context.
We're talking about those emotions.
I'm, I'm validating those
emotions and letting them know
that it's okay to feel that way.
And trying to get them to
understand that they have choices.
They can continue to be that way or they
can move into some other a mother arena.
They're not, that's similar to some of the
things that I did as a divorce lawyer, but
from a divorce lawyer standpoint I was a
little bit freer to say things like you
know, I don't think you want to do that.
And here's why.
If you do that, the other
side's gonna do this, and you're
gonna get really pissed off.
And if we, if we get to the courthouse
and we have to have a trial in front of a
judge, they're gonna be really pissed off.
And you're going to feel the brunt
of that, and you're gonna come out
on the losing end of that stick.
So don't do it in a
Rupert Isaacson: Now
that's really helpful.
Is that not by its definition,
conflict resolution, right there?
Eric Robertson: It, it is, it's
part of what what I would put in
the umbrella of conflict resolution.
But from a therapeutic standpoint,
that's not what a therapist would do.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Do you
Eric Robertson: know now again,
some of the other things, some of
the other stuff I did that I do is,
as we've talked about, is divorce.
Divorce coaching.
Okay.
Which is which is helping people when
they're in the midst of the divorce
to provide them support as they're
going through the divorce and to
try to get them regulated if they're
dysregulated emotionally, so that they
can make good decisions and so that
they can listen to what their divorce
lawyer is telling them and follow
their divorce lawyer's, legal advice.
See that that's, that's the, the
difference between being a divorce
coach and being a lawyer is the
lawyer gives legal advice and gives
you a legal strategy and does all
these things that the law requires.
As a divorce coach, I'm, I'm
there to kind of support them and
help them understand that this
person that you've, you're paying.
Large amounts of money to, to
help you through this divorce is
giving you, for the most part good
advice, and we need to understand
why you're reluctant to take it.
What is it that's keeping you
from doing what your divorce
lawyer is telling you to do?
And, you know, I'm, I'm not
really a therapist in that role.
Yeah.
A hundred percent, but I'm not, it's a
Rupert Isaacson: great hybrid role.
I think it's a really, it's a
really needed one because I think
you can, you can really help people
to not destroy their families.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And themselves.
As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,
either who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed
approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.
It's almost laughably simple.
The important thing is to begin.
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
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Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
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Take the online movement method course.
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Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.
What are your strategies do you have
like a, a go-to, like do, I presume
you must see patterns in clients like
personality type one, personality
type two, personality type three.
Just over the years, these
things must have, there's always
patterns, you know, to everything.
And then do you have.
Strategy patterns.
And I'm just thinking if someone
who's watching this and listening
to it, they might recognize
themselves in one of those.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And might be able to draw
some really useful insights from that.
And now as they're listening to,
and, and then just before we go
there to these patterns and how you
approach them, is the divorce coaching
thing quite a recent phenomenon?
Because it's not something I've
heard of before, but it does
sound something very useful.
Eric Robertson: Yeah, it, it's a,
it's fairly recent phenomenon, I'd say
within the last five to eight years.
There's, there's not a lot of people
out there that do divorce coaching.
There are there are some unfortunately
there's a lot of people that.
Got into divorce coaching after they
went through a bad divorce themselves,
which is probably not the person you
need to, you need to choose to do that.
There are also hybrid therapies
that kind of work along with
things like divorce coaching.
There's a a concept called
divorce discernment counseling.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: Where couples who are
having difficulty, who aren't wanting
to go into marriage counseling, go into
divorce, discernment counseling for a,
a number of sessions, a finite number
of sessions to determine whether or
not they want to get a divorce or not.
And I think at, when you talk
about conflict resolution, that's
one of the, the first places a
lot of people might think to start
in terms of divorce coaching.
I don't know that I
have any set strategies.
I mean, obviously, as you know,
every case is, is different.
Every person that comes in the office is
different, presents, different issues.
My my mode of working with people
is the first session we'll spend
an hour to an hour and a half
talking about their divorce.
Normally they're already in the
divorce, and what got 'em there what
the issues are in their divorce what,
what the the struggles are that they're
going through in the legal process.
And then we address each of those
in the, in the subsequent sessions.
And o oftentimes the first session
is somebody coming in and just.
Laying out every bad thing that's
happened to him in the process leading
up to the divorce and during the
divorce, and how awful the other side is.
And this is what I want to have happen.
And then we have to talk about,
well, what kind of advice are
you getting from your attorney?
Are you following that advice?
Why not if you're not?
And one of the things I've found over
the years practicing law as a divorce
lawyer was every client that came
into the room, had five or six shadow
advisors that were feeding stuff to
them about what they ought to do and
what they shouldn't do in their divorce.
And so when that comes into
the room in a divorce coaching
situation, we have to unpack that
and we have to talk about that.
Who's giving you advice?
Where did you get that?
Who told you that?
Why do you think that's
important for you to do?
And and then we have to really examine
that in the context of what is best
for you as you go through your divorce.
Do you really think that you ought to be
listening to your sister or to your best
friend give you advice about your divorce?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: And, and, and most
of the time people come around to the
idea that, well, as, as I was fond of
saying when I was a lawyer, you know,
you're paying me $600 an hour for
my advice and you're not taking it.
Is, is that really a smart thing to do?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I've got a question for you
which I just wrote down here.
So why is, is counterintuitive, why is
someone who went through a bad divorce
perhaps not a good divorce coach?
Because let's say you're in
aa, you would want your sponsor
to be an alcoholic, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if they don't, if they haven't
gone through it, what resources
have they got really to offer you?
Eric Robertson: Yeah, I just wrote
an article about that, that was
posted on a somebody's LinkedIn and
I'm happy to share it with you, to
share with your, your listeners.
But
I'm not saying you can never hire
somebody that's been through a divorce
to be your divorce coach, but what
I'm saying is you need to be careful
people that go through a bad divorce.
Come into the process with a bias,
they're already pissed off at the
process or pissed off at their ex-spouse.
They're mad and angry sometimes
at, at their attorney or the judge.
And so they come in with their own
agenda and a lot of times they're
projecting their own stuff onto your
case, and the advice you're gonna
get may not be the advice that you
need from somebody that doesn't
have that kind of emotional baggage.
So you need to be very careful
when you choose a divorce coach.
And if somebody says.
On their website or in their materials
that they've been through a divorce, you
need to ask them some strong questions
about, well, how did that go for you?
You know, ideally you'd, if you hire
somebody like that, you'd find somebody
that went through a, some sort of a
collaborative process where they had very
little conflict and they resolve things
amiably and, and they're just there to
help other people learn those techniques
and go through the divorce The same way.
You don't want somebody that the
first thing they tell you after you
ask them about their divorce was,
well, my spouse was a real no good
SOB, and I got taken to the cleaners
and the judge gave her everything.
And that's, that's the in no sure that,
Rupert Isaacson: that, that I
could see, but I could see someone
of real value saying, well,
no, I had a terrible divorce.
You know, and but.
During this, I tried to make it as un, you
know, as un terrible as possible and tried
to listen to my lawyer in this way and
tried to resolve the conflict, you know?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: As we best we
could and got did the best we
could with the situation, you know,
that would reassure me, you know,
Eric Robertson: or somebody that
recognizes that I went through a
bad divorce and I behaved poorly.
Right.
And I didn't follow my lawyer's
advice and I came out of it
badly, but it was my own thought.
You'll do what I did.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, that would make sense.
So, okay, let's, let's go back
to the, to the, your therapy hat.
I think men from our generation,
it's, it's pretty clear, you
know, what the issues are.
We were brought up brutalized I.
I know, you know, I went to a certain
type of military school in the UK where
physical violence and assault was daily.
And, but from every level, from the
teachers, from the other boys, from
the older boys to the younger boys
from, and it was all encouraged.
And it was, you know, actively the culture
because it was supposed to make you tough.
And what it did was it created all
sorts of dysfunctions naturally,
but its purpose was clear.
It was supposed to be preparing
boys to go out and run the British
empire, even though the British
Empire didn't actually exist anymore.
And although you could
argue it became a bank.
But, and a lot of my friends went into
the armed forces or into banking and.
The point was that it was gonna produce
an officer class of young men who would go
out and like run a portion of the Sudan,
possibly die at the age of 32 of malaria
or killed in a tribal conflict, and sort
of be able to do that with a kind of a
confidence and a belief in themselves
and a, a certain willingness to die.
And we were told, we're gonna
break you down to build you up.
And, and they certainly did
break us down and what we were re
composited as was a motley
collection of stuff.
But I think that the stuff facing
younger men today, and I'm the father
of a 25-year-old, it's different.
It's about an, as you said
earlier in the conversation about
anxiety, it's about loneliness.
It's about isolation.
And I think this is something I'd ask
the readers and the, the, the, the
viewers and the listeners to consider.
If you are, are you, do you know, are
you this parent or do you know someone
who is this parent that you, they have
perhaps two girls and a boy of young
adult age and of the two girls, one
is at college, one is beginning her
career doing quite well, and the boy
who's a young adult is in the basement
and won't get off the computer game.
Is this, is this a familiar scenario?
Mm-hmm.
I would posit that quite
a few hands would go up.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Give us
your thoughts on this.
Eric Robertson: Well, I have a,
I have a couple thoughts on that.
Number one, I, I don't think that.
What you've explained about your
growing up and to some extent the
way I grew up in, in, in the United
States is is completely gone.
Yet I think that there's still this,
these traditional norms of masculinity
that we teach boys early on and
you know, things like strength and
equal self-reliance and we need to
be in control with our emotions.
We frame vulner vulnerability as often as
weakness or, or dependency or, or mm-hmm.
Some sort of failure, which it isn't.
And so I, I don't think that
those things are all gone.
Rupert Isaacson: A hundred
Eric Robertson: percent I do.
Yeah.
I do agree that there, there's this
new thing that's come in that's, that's
allowed boys to try to escape from.
The world the, the video game
stuff and, and social media and,
and everybody's got a cell phone.
And of course the, the kind of
bullying that goes on, on social media
with with kids is, is horrendous.
And I think that, that, that drives
a lot of young men into, into
the basement with a video game.
That's, that's where they can get away.
They can get on these action games
online and present whatever they think
their view of masculine masculinity
ought to be in that context.
And they're, they're
doing that on their own.
There's no, you know, even though
you might be in one of these games
where you're engaged with other
people online, there's no emotional
connection with those people.
There's no friendship.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it, you're not out there.
With your best buddy talking about
how bad things are at home or what,
what's going on at, at school or
Rupert Isaacson: sharing a goofy laugh.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Or sharing
a goofy laugh with somebody
that's, that's not happening.
And I think you know, I think that
that's problematic and I think, you
know, for us to turn that around, I think
the most important step for parents,
and, and I would put this out to your
listeners, is to start early developing
some sort of an emotional literacy.
With with your boys.
This means helping them name emotions
other than it's fine, or I'm mad,
or I'm tired, and, and doing so,
and doing so without shaming them.
That's, that's the other part.
Adults should model that emotional
language and normalize all the emotions
that that, that your kids your boys
especially carry and not try to assign
that as being some sort of a weakness.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Eric Robertson: One of the phrases
I like is focus with boys especially
focus on connection before
correction, when, when they act out.
Okay?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: Because I think in, in my.
My growing up, you know, if I did
something wrong as a kid, I got the belt.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: That, that, that dates me
a little bit, but that, that fits in with
the violence that, that you talked about.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And when they act
out, there's a natural tendency
to want to scream and shout
and, and correct the behavior.
But we need to understand what's
going on first, and that's
where the connection comes in.
Rupert Isaacson: You
talked about mentorship.
I think, I know, I observe that
weirdly, this is getting harder
and harder to find, it seems.
And because we've had a feminist
movement, I'm wondering if it's easier
for females to find female to female
mentoring, particularly intergenerational.
The elders, you know,
why, why don't we have that for boys?
Is it because men are working too hard?
They're too checked out.
They're not available.
They're not there.
Why is it?
Eric Robertson: I think that's part of it.
I think men of childbearing age now
are, are real involved with their
careers and with other things and
not necessarily available to mentor.
Rupert Isaacson: Because it seems to
me there's been a double standard,
which is that, I mean, we, humans are
great at double standards and I've
produced many double standards myself.
But the double standard is, is
that as a male, now you're supposed
to be available vulnerable.
Communicative, compassionate.
And absolutely, you know, equal
rec, you know, work an equal
thing between the genders and on.
However, at the same time, you're
actually still supposed to be the red
winner and you're judged if you're not
by females as much as by other men.
And
Eric Robertson: it's funny you should
say that, that I, that is something
I experienced as a divorce lawyer.
So we're all familiar with this
in the United States with the
concept of the stay at home mom.
She's a mom that stays at home.
She takes care of the household,
she raises the kids, she does
everything in the household,
Rupert Isaacson: and we honor that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And we want her there.
And I'll throw this out to feminism,
and she's not appreciated as
much as she ought to be, perhaps.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Eric Robertson: But.
Every once in a while I would get a
case where those roles were reversed
and the female was the high wage
earner and they had made an agreement
that the male would stay home and be
the house husband and raise the kids.
And the, the, the funny thing that
happened with that is in the context of
the divorce, that female acted just like
men act in, in the reverse situation.
They took on the same traits as men.
They resented the fact that this person
stayed at home and didn't do anything even
though they were at home doing things.
They resented the fact that they had
gone out and earned all this money
and now we're having to split it
with this person who stayed at home.
And even though they made that
agreement seven years into it, when.
That she didn't like it anymore the
female would have the same complaints
that men had in the same situation.
So what, what that told me was in those
circumstances, there really isn't much
of a, of a difference in how men and
women respond in those circumstances.
Although societally, I think there has
been it's, they're more open to it now.
There was a tendency to think that men
that were staying at home doing that kind
of stuff were kind of freeloading and
not really living up to their potential.
And, and of course I, like I
said, I think that's changing.
But it, it was, it always interest me
that there was really, when you're in the
thick of the conflict, the same things
you hear from men, you'd hear from women,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
And, and.
That's a good insight that it's, it's
more a human thing than a gender thing.
But that also, I think the gender
roles that, and expectations that
we're all brought up with can backfire
I think to some degree on males
because yes, you are still expected
to behave in that stoic manner.
You're still supposed to be more
the strong, silent type you're still
supposed to go out and earn and provide.
And one of the difficulties about that
is that, and that's why I asked you
questions earlier in this conversation
about whether there had been some of
those expectations on you because, or
whether they, they'd been projections.
Because I think the reality
is that for a lot of.
Meant those expectations are still there.
And what that does is it means that they
can't actually be that available to their
kids because the time that it takes and
the energy that it takes to be that sort
of stoic breadwinner, unfortunately,
does take time away from where they
could be vol, you know, a available
Eric Robertson: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: To their
spouses and children.
How does one resolve this?
Eric Robertson: It comes down to making
a choice about what's important to you.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: You know what?
You have to examine your own values
in terms of having a family and having
children, and having boys and what you're
willing to do to make sure that you
raise the best possible young man you can
with the best possible emotional health.
That you can, you can instill in them.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, that's a different
thing 'cause we're you know, I like
to think of, of, as you put it,
how man has developed over history.
And we've moved from what you
described with the bushman
to an agrarian to society.
And now I'm gonna get a lot of flack for
say in this, but now we're a society,
a world society driven by greed.
Okay?
That's the focus.
The focus of life is making
as much money and accumulating
as much stuff as possible.
Now, there's always exceptions to
that and there's a lot of people out
there that don't live that kinda life.
But if, if you look at the news
in the United States, that's
what you see all the time.
That's a measure of success.
And as we talked about earlier, the way
to get to that success is to work as
hard as you can, as much as you can.
And you know, there's 24 hours in a day
if you assume that you're asleep for
eight of it, you don't have a lot left.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Eric Robertson: To work and then
to devote to to mentorship of
your, of your children or, or other
people's children for that matter.
And so that, that's, I think
that's the, that's the problem.
I don't think there's an easy
way to turn that around if you're
not willing to make the choice.
Now, one of the other things that
I think is really interesting is,
and, and I'm sure you know this, but
fewer and fewer people are getting
married today and having kids.
In many countries, including the
United States, the birth rate is down.
And if you talk to people that
are living together, or even some
that do get married, they have
no interest in having children.
And that, that's a whole different issue.
But I think we would, you know, five
years from now, 10 years from now,
we'll be having a completely different
conversation about this because we'll
have screwed up this generation and
there may not be another generation.
Rupert Isaacson: What
conversation will we be having?
Eric Robertson: I think we'll be having
a conversation about why people don't
want to procreate, why they don't
want to have a, a son or a daughter,
why they don't want to have children.
What is, what is it?
Rupert Isaacson: Why,
why do you think it is?
Why do you think people don't?
Eric Robertson: Well, I think
I'll go back to the greed thing.
I think a lot of it has to do
with, in, in Austin, Texas.
I will tell you, a lot of it has to do
with, it's so expensive to live here.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm
Eric Robertson: And that the idea that
I can barely afford to live with this
partner that I have, let alone bring
another person into the world and
have to cover the expenses of that.
Mm-hmm.
For a lot of people is is really daunting.
Plus, I think that some of the things
we've talked about, about how young
people, young men in particular are
pulling away from connection with other
people is going to lead to some of that.
You know, as I was going through
the the, my last master's degree
program, I did an internship at the
University of Texas seeing college kids.
And I gotta tell you, it was, a little
bit depressing what comes into the
room with college kids these days?
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me
Eric Robertson: they have difficulty
again, these, all these same things.
They have difficulty making connection.
Even those that want it, don't
know how to go out there and do it.
And how to, how to connect with other
people, how to find other people.
There is probably twice as many women
on college campuses now than men.
And so the, the, the dating pool for men
may be big, but if you, if you do the, the
math on it there's, there's not a, there's
not a, a girl for every boy on campus.
And so there's, there's a lot of things
that, and, and even in, in college
after COVID when people were all kind
of taken away from having any community
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: To being online
a lot of those people started.
In high school and then transitioned
into college during that period of
time, they completely lost out the
learning curve that they would've
gained if they were going to school
every day and out there in public.
And
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, that, that
learning, the, you know, it's
interesting 'cause I went to an all
boys school for a long time, and I
remember when I came out of that I was,
I didn't go the full trajectory to 18.
I got, I came out at 16 and went
transitioned to a, an early college where
there were girls and I didn't know how
to talk to this alien species because I
just had not been exposed to them at all.
Yeah.
It resolved itself over, over time, but it
wasn't disrupted by something like COVID.
I think that the, yeah, the
inability to actually physically
meet and talk to each other.
Meant something rather cataclysmic
for the our generation.
And it seems though that it's not
that girls haven't come out of
it with that, with mental health
problems, but it does seem that the
boys seem to be more impacted by it.
And I wonder why that is.
Is it because young males need
biologically seem to, need
biologically to go out and sort
of have these adventures together,
these physical adventures together?
Some people do it through sport and like
heavy contact sports or some people do it
right going hunting or some people do it
through, you know, we're all skateboarding
at the park and some people do it through
this and some people do it through that.
. I think that young men
in particular need risk.
They need risk, like they need oxygen.
Mm-hmm.
Because again, having lived with
hunters and gatherers, what one
observes is that hunting and gathering
roles are not completely gender.
Assigned, but they're largely gender
assigned, just purely by convenience
in that, let's say you have a baby
at hip, you're not going to, or
you're pregnant, you're not going to
run down an antelope at that point.
You might do it as a young
girl before you got pregnant.
But gender.
And then of course when you go out
gathering for wild foods, which ends
up being a predominantly female thing,
it doesn't mean you're never hunting.
And interestingly, you know, as a male,
you're, you are also gathering as you
hunt and noticing where wild foods
are and you're gonna report that back.
And so, so there, there is crossover.
However there, there are a certain
amount of gender roles and young men
know that they're going to have to face.
Animals to hunt that will hunt them back.
That's the crucial thing.
So I've observed this when you go and
you hunt some, it's not lions, you're
not hunting lions, but you might
have to go chase lions off a kill.
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And the lion will
have something to say about that.
And you will encounter an antelope
like hems book or bush buck, that there
are these particular types of antelope
that are known that when they, once
they figure out that you are hunting
them, they'll turn around and hunt you
back and they've got a pretty strong
likelihood of getting it and you need to
know how to dive, lean into that risk,
et cetera.
So it seems that over however many
hundreds of thousands of years
young boys have need risk taking.
And it's interesting that
you were talking at the.
Early part of this conversation
about elevated risk taking as
a as a mental health deficit.
But one thing I know is that risk
taking is necessary as well, but it's
supposed to be done under mentorship.
You're supposed to go out with the older
hunters, just as you go out with the older
gatherers and say, no, not that mushroom,
but that mushroom, that mushroom,
there's gonna kill the entire family.
That even though it looks similar to that
mushroom there, you, you need that one.
Similarly with the hunting, you don't
just blindly go in and take these
risks, but there will be a point
where you will have to do it solo.
And so you're gonna get there gradually.
And this involves, of course, tribe.
This involves community.
This involves actual people
showing you what to do and actual
risk in a natural environment.
So the boys at the skate park
who are risking breaking their
legs as they're skating down, you
know, the courthouse steps mm-hmm.
Are fulfilling a biological need
and they shouldn't be chased off.
Eric Robertson: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: They're actually
doing it quite creatively 'cause
they're harming no one but themselves.
It's why young men also go
out and get into fights.
It's, it's all of this stuff and it
doesn't need to be antisocial, but
whether you think it should be there
or shouldn't be there, it's there.
Yeah.
And that's why the video games
present as they do and all of that.
So in the absence of that
what, how do you help people?
So for example, in my work, you
know, so much of what I do is
reconnecting people with nature.
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And saying
before we have any discussion over
your endocrine system, which is
producing the moods that you've got.
We need to be in an environment
that's working for us, not against us.
And I remember this when I was
going through talk therapy and
it wasn't really working for me.
I remember asking the therapist,
I can see the woods outside.
Eric Robertson: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I know
something about neuroscience.
Please, can we not be in this?
I'm sitting here, you're sitting there.
Thing where I'm feeling, I'm
itching to get out of my skin and
I'm feeling a bit shamed anyway.
And can we not go out there
and walk under the trees?
It will go better if we do.
Eric Robertson: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: And I
couldn't get this guy to do it.
And finally I said, I'll pay you double.
I'll pay you, I'll pay you for the,
an extra hour for the 10 minutes
it takes us to walk out there.
And the 10 minutes walk back.
And where I think he was uncomfortable
with it is, I think it actually affected
the power balance that he rather
liked that this can happen in therapy.
That, that the therapist
has a certain power and.
It became a little bit more collegial.
So I couldn't really persuade him to
keep going, but I probably, I know I got
more out of the few sessions I managed to
Eric Robertson: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Bully him to go outside.
If you made it this far into the podcast,
then I'm guessing you're somebody
that, like me, loves to read books
about not just how people have achieved
self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,
what started Live Free Ride Free.
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing
Land, which tells the story of.
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.
Come on that adventure with me.
So talk to me about this because you know,
you, you know as well as I do that Yes.
Males kind of need this.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Don't get it.
It then turns weird.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You are
now in a therapy situation.
What do you do?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, let me, let me start
by saying this because I, I
agree with what you're saying.
I think that we need to provide
male affirming spaces where boys
and men can talk while doing
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And, and I, I, I think
that in a, in a traditional therapy
practice, that that is often hard to do.
I mean, if you're lucky enough to have an
office that's next to a a nature preserve
or a hiking trail or something like that
I think, I think that's, that's great.
And I think that I'm, you know, as
an attorney, there was definitely
a hierarchy and a balance of power
between the attorney and the client.
And when I left that and got into therapy,
I got into therapy with the mindset
that I'm, I'm doing away with that.
There's no longer gonna
be a balance of power.
It's just me and this person
who's come to me with particular
issue that wants to work on that.
And I don't, I don't know more,
any more about that issue that
he's struggling with than he does.
So I need to be in the room and
present and acknowledge that that
we're, we're on this journey together.
You know, there, there's.
Without going into all of the, the
different modalities that, that
I, I was taught in school or that
I've picked up after getting outta
school that I, I practice with you
know, I, I like to use skill-based
therapies where there's some engagement
with the other, with the client.
I've always thought I have an interest
in, in weightlifting, and I always
thought I, I would love to have my own gym
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: And have a therapy
for men that, like that kind of thing.
Because I think that's, again,
that's what you're talking about.
You're, you're engaged.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Why not do that?
Why not do that?
Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I know, for
example, you're also a boxer.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Why
Rupert Isaacson: not?
Why not introduce that
into a therapy session?
Eric Robertson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, for me right now, the, the problem
is just having the facilities to do that.
Now again, that, that,
that's a, that's something.
That I, I think would be great, and
I'd like to do that and, and perhaps at
some point would be able to do that, but
I, I think it is, I important that you
explore those things with the client.
Mm-hmm.
You know, that, that's parting to getting
to know the client in the very beginning
is what is this client all about?
What do, what do they enjoy?
What do they like to do?
Unfortunately, therapists see a
lot of clients that are just so
disengaged with the world that they
don't know what their interests are.
And so a lot of what we
do is try to explore that.
What are your values?
What are your goals in life?
Where do you want to be in five years?
And to get some idea
of who that person is.
But I, I, I hear what you're saying and I
think it is important, and I would never,
Rupert Isaacson: there's, there's
been, there's been some interesting
science come out of it lately.
You know, as you know, I do
a lot of work with equine.
Mm-hmm.
A recent study got published which is to
do with domestic violence and perpetrators
of domestic violence, by the way.
Both male and female.
And
the results showed that after a five week
intervention, it was once a week, I think.
This is through the University
of Bournemouth in the uk.
There was a 51% decrease in re-offending.
Mm-hmm.
A year after finishing
that short intervention.
And that most of the people who
had attended that equine thing had
dropped outta talk therapy because
they just didn't want to do it.
And what they found was that not
only did the horses provide all
these interesting metaphors and.
There was nature going on, but that the
relationship that the people formed with
the horse made them want to come back.
But they couldn't really
empathize with the therapist.
So the therapist could get out
of the way and they could form
a relationship with horse.
They actually wanted to come back
and spend time with this horse.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And so therefore
they finished the program.
'Cause as you know, a lot of people in
programs drop out and I wonder about this.
You know, we had recently here
on the farm where I'm living, a
friend of mine brought her son who
was not coming out of the room.
And we were lucky.
We had three weeks.
And I said, just bring him, because
the way of life here, I think
will begin to sort it out because
there's no heating in this house.
And if you want to be warm and it's
winter, now you have to cut wood.
And you have to make a fire.
It, there is just no alternative.
There are no radiators.
It's a 500 year old house
and it has never had heating.
Mm-hmm And to get the wood, we have
to go up on the mountain and we have
to cut it and we are not doing it
in a kind of a depressed, oh shit,
this is terrible sort of a way.
Right.
We're having a bit of a laugh
while we do it, but if we
don't do it, we won't get warm.
And that's before you look at the
other things that we do on the farm
that there is just this bottom line.
And it was very interesting.
We left him alone a bit at first and then
he came out of the room saying, I'm bored.
And we said, great.
Let's go do something then.
Or you can go back to
your room if you want.
We went force.
Be
Eric Robertson: bored.
Yeah.
I
Rupert Isaacson: don't want to go
back to the room 'cause I'm cold.
Fantastic.
I have a solution.
We were just about to go up
the mountain to get some wood.
I don't really want to do that.
Okay, fine.
No worries.
You don't need to do that.
We'll go up there and we'll bring some
down, but we'll see you in an hour.
So of course that happened.
And then the next time he came up the
mountain, and then before you know
it, he was up there chopping wood.
And what was interesting is that
when he went home he then became more
and more engaged in what was going
on and then went out and exploring.
He's now gone back to his suburban context
where he doesn't have those resources
available to him outside the front door.
So he said to his mom, oh, but don't worry
if I fall back in, I, I'll always go back.
I can go back to that farm and reset.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So what I'm
wondering is, because you know
the value of these things.
Yeah.
And you now have this new
career in front of you.
Are you looking at partnering
with nature-based things and
equine things and that sort of
thing and sports-based things?
Eric Robertson: Sure, sure.
And
Rupert Isaacson: and
Eric Robertson: yeah, to the extent,
to the extent those are out there,
and I can find those, I think those
are something that I would like
to integrate into my practice.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: You know, I think
programs that combine mental health
support and mentoring and coaching
and vocational identity and other
activities are very important for men.
I think they, they, they have a very
good chance of, of higher engagement.
Mm-hmm.
With men especially.
And obviously as I go forward and,
and build a practice with that
focus, that's gonna be important
to look out there for, for that.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
The, the kids that were
coming to you in the.
That internship that you
did at the university?
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: How many of
them had gone, had parents
who'd gone through bad divorces?
Eric Robertson: There were several.
There were several.
Yeah.
I, I couldn't say it was a
majority, but there were several.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you
notice a pattern there?
Were there patterns of certain
types of behavior or emotional
state that you could say
Eric Robertson: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that,
Eric Robertson: yeah.
Not, not that we're significantly
different from those whose
parents were still married.
Okay.
Now, again, I don't know you know,
you're, when you deal with young
people, it is sometimes difficult
to get them to give you all of the
information that you would like to have.
So I don't know how many of those people
whose parents were still together.
Or could describe their parents'
relationship as being a good one, right?
Or not?
Yeah.
You can ask those questions and
a lot of time they say things
like, yeah, they're, they're fine.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: That, that doesn't
give me a lot to work with.
But that's just the nature of
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Dealing
with somebody who's frontal
cortex isn't fully developed.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And that, that's,
Rupert Isaacson: talk to us
about that actually, because not
everybody knows that neuroscience.
So, talk to us about the development
of the frontal cortex versus the
limbic system and why this matters.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Well, the, the
frontal cortex doesn't fully
develop in humans until they're
in their mid to late twenties.
Rupert Isaacson: And what
does the frontal cortex do?
Eric Robertson: The con that, that
is the higher level of thought.
That's where your higher
level of thought comes from.
And your rational thought comes from
Rupert Isaacson: figuring shit out,
Eric Robertson: figuring shit out.
The limbic system is that part that,
what I call the reptilian brain that is
involved in the fight or flight, right?
When you're faced with something
terrible, you either shut down you,
you explode and fight, or you run off.
So the, for young people, they're
not operating on all cylinders, so to
speak when, when they're faced with
a crisis and they're not able to to
really think through rationally what
their options are and how, how they're
gonna solve the, whatever the issue is.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: No, absolutely.
And this is obviously something in our
work, we look at all the time that yeah,
it's a little bit like in adolescence.
Your nose gets a bit big and then
another part of you gets a bit big
and then the rest catches up and
it's exactly the same in the brain.
And when the limbic system is ahead of the
CEO of the brain, the, the frontal cortex.
Things get funky and people get
overactive and self-absorbed.
And then we are hard on young
people for this, but actually it's
exactly how nature has designed it.
They have no more choice in the
matter, right, than a toddler does.
Right.
She's going through actually a
similar type of thing, and as you
say, it doesn't resolve itself
until the mid late twenties.
So that thing of figuring shit out
and handling your shit, emotional
regulation, you can't do that
actually when your limbic system
is in, is overtaken in the race.
But now some people seem
to stay there though.
You know, one, one meets quite a lot of
56 year olds who are still mentally and
emotionally where they were at 12 to 15.
What do you think is going on there?
Because you see those clients,
those are the clients that are
not listening to you as a lawyer.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
You know, it, it's really,
I don't know that I can say that the
development hasn't happened so much
as sometimes the Olympic system just
kind of overwhelms the court, the, the
frontal cortex and, and they just, they
get so overwhelmed with what's going on
around them that it kind of goes offline.
Rupert Isaacson: What is your strategy
for helping them get it back online?
Eric Robertson: Well, we do a
lot of emotional regulation.
We, you know, a lot of times
people come into the office and
they're just so dysregulated.
We have to do some breathing exercises
to begin with, or we have, I have some
other exercises that that I, I use to
help some tapping, self-tapping apps
exercises, which are that come out of the
EMDR area that help people tell us about
Rupert Isaacson: tapping.
Why does tapping work?
Eric Robertson: Bilateral tapping
allows people to, not really sure
how it works, but it allows people
to to regulate their emotions in the
moment and to bring themself back
to a more state of stasis and calm.
And it, it's worked.
It's worked for a lot of my clients
Rupert Isaacson: and
it's a guided process.
Right.
Eric Robertson: And it's a guided process.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Just take a
two, a minute or two, guide me
through one, take me through a
Eric Robertson: time.
Okay.
Well, I actually happen to have one
right here that I use with the client.
This morning.
And
so we start with identifying whatever the
issue is that is causing the distress.
And we bring, we name it,
you name that in the room.
I'm having s severe anxiety
because I failed a test.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: And then you
rate the intensity of your
anxiety on a one to 10 scale.
And then with the tapping, you can
just start by one easy one is just
tapping the top of your head and
repeating a little mantra that it,
even though I deeply, or even though
I feel or think or have anxiety over
this test, I deeply and completely
love, forgive, and accept myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Even though I'm
having anxiety over this test, I deeply
love, forgive and appreciate myself.
Eric Robertson: Yes, and then
you move down to your temples
and repeat the same thing.
Even though I feel or think or
have anxiety over this test,
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think
or feel or have anxiety over this test,
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive, and accept says self.
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply
and completely love.
Forgive and accept myself.
Eric Robertson: Move to your forehead.
Same thing.
Even though I feel thank or
have anxiety over this test,
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think,
feel or have anxiety over this test,
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive, and accept myself.
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself.
Eric Robertson: Then we move down to right
under your eyes and you do the same thing.
Even though, even though I feel, think,
or have anxiety over this test, I
Rupert Isaacson: feel, think
or have anxiety over this test,
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself
Eric Robertson: then
right under your nose.
Even though I feel, think, or
have anxiety over this test,
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think,
feel or have anxiety over this test,
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive, and accept myself
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself
Eric Robertson: and then under
your mouth, on your chin.
Even though I feel, think, or
have anxiety over this test,
Rupert Isaacson: people
have anxiety over this test.
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself.
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself.
Eric Robertson: And if the
person isn't fully regulated,
we'll go through that again.
Rupert Isaacson: It does feel better.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I would argue that
there's yeah, a creation of endorphins
there and what's called BDNF, brain
derived neurotrophic factor creating of
new neurons, novel movement, new pathways.
But I can definitely feel a difference.
And you know, I've, I do know people
that do this, but I haven't actually
done one of those for a while.
And I have done them in times of
high anxiety and they really do work.
Do you find that men
resist this stuff, or,
Eric Robertson: yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
You gotta get past that touchy feely.
Kind of mentality.
How'd you get
Rupert Isaacson: past it?
Eric Robertson: Well, a lot of times
I say, Hey, I do this, I do this.
I used to do this before I'd go to trial.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Eric Robertson: I'd be so overwhelmed
with anxiety going into the
courtroom that I would find a space
someplace and I would do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you get overwhelmed
with anxiety going into the courtroom?
Eric Robertson: I did.
I did.
Yeah.
I, I would tell I, same thing.
I would tell my clients, I would
tell any lawyer, any young lawyer,
if you don't get nervous or if you're
not nervous when we're walking into
the courtroom, I'm really concerned.
Okay.
That's, that's an instance where anxiety.
Is probably helpful.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: Now you don't
wanna be so anxi anxious that
you can't answer a question.
Or you can't as a lawyer,
you can't ask a question.
But I would do that to relax myself
before I would start a trial.
Rupert Isaacson: This actually could
be quite healthy to people listening.
What is healthy anxiety?
We're generally told that
anxiety is unhealthy.
What is healthy?
Anxiety?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
I, I don't believe that
all anxiety is unhealthy.
An look we evolved with anxiety.
Mm-hmm.
And anxiety serves a purpose.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: Using your metaphor
of hunter gatherers out on the,
on the field.
If you're anxious, you're hyper
aware of what's going on around you.
And there's a protective aspect to that.
If, if you're in a bad situation
and you're anxious and there's,
you're, you're hyper aware of what's
happening, if you are faced with an
emergency, you're not gonna get stuck
in some fight, flight or freeze mode.
You're gonna be able to think about
how I'm gonna get out of that.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
So yeah, healthy, healthy
anxiety allows strategizing,
Eric Robertson: right?
Rupert Isaacson: But if you have unhealthy
anxiety, something like this, emdr,
Eric Robertson: it overwhelms you.
It overwhelms you, and you
can't think, and you can't
figure out what you need to do.
Rupert Isaacson: It is interesting.
I was going through a really
anxious period and I know someone
who does EMDR and I said, hit me.
Let's see if this works.
Which was a slightly different, you,
you know, it's a slightly different
one where you are doing bilateral
stuff with your eyes and, and, it
took my anxiety about this particular
thing from a 10 to a two in about
10 minutes.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I was quite shocked
at the simplicity of it actually.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And reassured,
I know that you need to wrap this up
shortly, that you actually, it's the
middle of your working day and you have
a client that you need to go and see.
Do you have any closing advice for
men, young or old or fathers or, and
people, men going through conflict,
whether it's internal or external?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Leave us
with your elder advice.
What to do.
Eric Robertson: What
Rupert Isaacson: to do.
Well,
Eric Robertson: I would say this when we
look at the things that actually help men.
There are things like learning
how to normalize emotions without
forcing verbal vulnerability.
That's, that's difficult for a lot of men.
Rupert Isaacson: How does
one tread that line though?
Because how do you not become
emotionally vulnerable when you
Eric Robertson: Well, that they may
at some point, but when you're working
with men, your role is just to normalize
whatever emotions they're feeling.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: And with, without
trying to force them into, I see
vulnerable position focus on function
goals and relief rather than feelings
talk initially when you're with them,
as you, as you pointed out, sometimes
talk therapy just doesn't work.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And it's interesting too, I think as a
bloke, I definitely like to be focused
on solutions and strategizing solutions.
Eric Robertson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Allow parallel processing.
This is the talking while doing.
That we talked about.
I think that's real important.
Reduce the shame by validating effort.
Not the weakness, by not
talking about the weakness, but
validating somebody's effort.
And gosh, you showed up today.
I'm, I'm really glad to see you
good thing, that sort of thing.
And then frame help as skill building,
not ne necessarily pathology.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: You're
here to learn how to cope.
I want to help you.
I want to give you the skills that you
can use to help you cope with that, with
this situation, rather than saying, well,
you're, you're depressed and we need to
figure out how to treat the depression.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
Yeah.
All of those resonate with me.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Men don't need less empathy.
They often need empathy
delivered differently.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Yeah.
I guess we're all a bit autistic.
Yeah.
We learn differently.
It's so true.
And because even though Yeah,
psychotherapy, that whole field started
with men, Freud young, as you say,
it's become a largely female dominated
field and perhaps the approaches
need to be modified for our gender.
Yeah, yeah.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
So work in progress.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Well, I look forward to
seeing how it develops.
Eric, thank you posted so much.
This has been
Eric Robertson: You bet,
Rupert Isaacson: extremely insightful.
Eric Robertson: Thank you for having me.
Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.
I shall see you in Austin, Texas.
Eric Robertson: I'll see
you in April and Austin.
Rupert Isaacson: Now, before
you go, just the plugs.
How do people contact you?
How do they find you?
Eric Robertson: Www.robertsonct.com.
It's my website.
Rupert Isaacson: Robertson ct.com?
Eric Robertson: Yes, as in
Robertson Counseling and therapy.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And if people want to reach out for
you for, as a client, but also for
mentorship, all of that stuff, do
you offer trainings of any kind?
Do you offer workshops?
Eric Robertson: I don't, but I'm
actually with encouragement from
somebody that I've been talking with
over the last couple of months thinking
about writing a book on divorce,
coaching oriented both towards clients
and towards people that wanna do it.
Rupert Isaacson: I would
encourage you to write that book.
Yeah, absolutely.
I would,
I would also encourage you to, to create
some workshops and retreats around this,
Eric Robertson: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I think there's
a, a massive need and I think that
the outcomes for families and the
kids involved in all of that could
be very positively impacted by
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What you're doing.
So thank
Eric Robertson: you.
Well, perhaps I'll start a podcast.
Rupert Isaacson: Hey, great idea.
Get it
Eric Robertson: out.
Alright.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, my friend.
Eric Robertson: Thank you,
Rupert Isaacson: Ruper.
I'll see you soon.
Bye-Bye.
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