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The HeadRush Podcast with Paul Frase and Corey Berry takes you inside the reality of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) through the lens of football and rodeo. With firsthand experience in two of the most punishing sports, Paul and Corey share their stories, the lasting effects of head trauma, and the fight for awareness and support.
0:10
This is the Head Rush podcast with Paul Freys and Corey Barry. Hey ladies and
0:16
gentlemen, today we're back in our studio and we figured out we didn't just
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have one or two episodes. We had three
0:26
>> in Tampa. in Tampa
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>> when we were at the M. Parkman Summit for repeated head impacts.
0:33
>> International Summit.
0:34
>> International Summit. The only one in the world.
0:37
>> Only one in the world. And so we got to do a little intro. This episode you're
0:43
about ready to watch is with the Patrick Reisha
0:48
CTE Awareness Foundation with Doug and Karen Seagull.
0:54
And also we also have on this is Max Gray with
0:59
>> uh CTE
1:01
>> News Facebook
1:02
>> News. Yes, he's been he's been awesome uh with social media and and pushing
1:07
stopct.org. He's been working with Karen and Doug
1:11
Zagle for quite a while and he's actually really uh uh been a great u um
1:17
advocate for the Head Rush podcast.
1:19
>> Yeah.
1:19
>> Yeah. He's been sharing a lot of our news and we we got to sit down with him
1:25
and talk with him at Tampa and it was I think it was a very it was a great talk.
1:30
>> Right. And so this episode will be with Karen Zagel, Doug Zagel and of Patrick
1:36
Richious Stop CT awareness and Max Gray with uh chronic traumatic
1:44
conceptylopathy news
1:47
>> on Facebook. So, thank you and please watch this.
1:51
>> Ladies and gentlemen, this episode is brought to you by Millennium Health
1:57
Centers, Dr. Mark Gordon at tbialthnow.org.
2:04
He signed on with us. You've seen him in our episode two with Dr. Myel Deo and
2:10
Dr. Gordon. Uh Dr. Dr. Gordon's been featured on a movie Quiet Explosions, a
2:16
documentary about TBI. Um, featured Andrew Maher, a Green Beret blast
2:21
explosive specialist. And, uh, they talk about TBI, PTSD, traumatic brain injury,
2:29
and uh, gosh, I've seen that. I've watched that movie about four times. And
2:33
I know uh, Dr. Gordon has also been on Joe Rogan six times. So he has something
2:40
good and powerful to say about c well about TBI traumatic brain injury. So go
2:47
to tbihelpnow.org.
2:51
>> Correct.
2:52
>> And make sure you get in touch with their team. Uh Dr. Gordon also works
2:57
with the military. Do you want to
2:59
>> Yeah, he works with the United States military. He's done the Pentagon. He's
3:04
working real close with them. If you're a veteran and you need help, go to
3:08
tbhelpnow.org. Dr. Mark Gordon quit his private
3:13
practice just to work with the military,
3:16
>> work with veterans suffering for with PTSD,
3:20
>> right? PTSD, TBI, and repeated headache or repeated blast
3:26
impacts.
3:27
>> Exactly. Um, so and if you are a veteran, there's nothing closer to my
3:32
heart than the people that serve our country and protect our way of right and
3:39
our way to be able to do this podcast for you. So go to tbhelpnow.org
3:47
and get the help you need. Mark Gordon, we work with him on the Brainwell
3:52
program through Myel Deo. If you go to tbhelpnow.org,
3:56
There's a list. There may be a provider in your area in Canada. He's all over.
4:03
So, go to tbialnow.org and check it out. Welcome back for the
4:09
second episode at the M. Parkman Foundation Subconussive Summit here in
4:15
Tampa, Florida. As you can see, I'm wearing a beautiful Floridaian shirt.
4:19
Yeah, you gave me some excuse that they didn't have a double XXL for me, but
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triple XL.
4:24
>> Oh. I'm getting I'm getting some rid of some
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of my fluffiness. Corey,
4:30
>> I know you've been on that uh sugar diet. How's that going? By the way,
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>> it's been going well. I feel I feel good. I've lost
4:40
a little bit of weight and um my focus is coming back a little bit. So, we're
4:45
good.
4:45
>> Right on. Well, guess what?
4:47
>> What?
4:48
>> We got another one of our sponsors that showed up. Not only does she sponsor the
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Head Rush podcast, but she is the title sponsor for the Repeated Head Impact
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Conference going on right now and repeated blast exposure
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conference going on right now here in Tampa, Florida with the Mac. Parkman
5:12
Foundation. And I finally get to meet you guys in person. It's so awesome.
5:17
I've met the grandkids. I've met the cars. I've met everything, but I've
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never seen y'all in person. It's awesome. And I just love you for it.
5:27
>> I feel like we already did. It's funny that it's
5:31
>> Well, we're we're in a small club, I think. Well, it's it's probably a lot
5:36
It's a lot bigger than we we know, isn't it? Isn't it? Um
5:40
>> Well, we're we are fortunate to have uh Karen and Doug Zagel of the uh
5:46
stopct.org or and uh the Patrick Risha um
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Foundation for CTE awareness. And Corey calls uh Karen the the
5:59
godfather godfather of
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>> CTE
6:03
>> CTE awareness. And um that we're we're here on this at this conference
6:10
for an important message to share and to get out and to make get bring awareness
6:16
to that repeated head impacts can and will cause mental health issues
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>> and brain damage. and brain damage and even to the point of of su suicide
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ideiation or actual uh suicide
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>> suicide.
6:36
>> Yeah. and Karen Karen and Doug have um
6:45
their relationship to the Mac Parkman Foundation and Bruce Parkman and his
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wife is is they are lock they have locked arms on in the fight against uh
6:58
of of raising awareness for repeated head impacts because they both lost
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their sons to suicide And uh M. Parkman, he was a young man that played uh 10
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months of uh concussive and uh physical sports in high school. And at 17 or 18
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years old, was he 18 years old? He he he decided that he um was better off
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>> not being here.
7:28
>> Not being here. And then um Patrick Greca
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uh uh he played football for how many years? How did he start young?
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>> 12 10 years old he started
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>> he started so and his final football playing days were at Dartmouth.
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>> Yes.
7:49
>> For uh he he went to Dartmouth and he played out his final days of football
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and then uh probably about 10 years later
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Yeah. About 10 years later, 10 years of steady decline in everything.
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>> Did you So, we don't we we we try to really bring the awareness to parents
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that um
8:15
>> Well, Tatiana talked about it today. Noticing the signs.
8:20
>> Noticing the signs. And Doug, I've heard Doug talk about it on the podcast and
8:26
I've heard him discuss it that, you know, sometimes and
8:33
my daughter, I love her to death, but with my mental capacity in my rage,
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um, what is that uh phrase? Uh, hard love or
8:50
tough love? tough love
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>> and that when you start seeing little bits of failure, you think it's time to
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be tough love.
8:58
>> You got to figure it out.
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>> Yes.
9:00
>> And what Tatiana was talking about and we're going to have her on the podcast.
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Tatiana McCall is Ray Lewis is what?
9:10
>> Wimberly now.
9:11
>> Wimberly. She's newly married, but she has three kids with Ray Lewis that you
9:16
played with,
9:17
>> right? And they lost Ray Ray,
9:22
their oldest, to stage two CTE care.
9:26
>> Yes.
9:28
>> At 28 years old.
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>> Mhm.
9:31
>> And how old was Patrick when he passed?
9:33
>> 32.
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>> 32. So we're not talking about NFL players right now. We're talking about
9:40
>> No.
9:41
>> College players?
9:42
>> No.
9:43
>> Because wasn't Ray Ray still in college at University of Wyoming or so? He he
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was playing semi-professional.
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>> He was playing semi-pro.
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>> Yeah.
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>> That I don't know. But I think I think you're right.
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>> Yeah.
9:54
>> But so the damage is done way too early.
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>> Yes.
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>> And hearing her talk about the symptoms. What were some of the symptoms you that
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you think back now and go, you know, this was CTE related?
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So Patrick's first symptoms, uh, I did not think it was CT. Thought
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it was teenage stuff. I thought maybe the protein drinks he was drinking
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were causing a change. I definitely noticed a change. He was
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shortertempered,
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>> almost rude sometimes. Uh, he was
10:37
>> and that that wasn't him growing up. No, he was so sweet and loving and just
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wanted to be where everybody was. And then he started to hang out in the
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basement with his buddies or by himself playing Madden football or whatever was
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going on at the time. So, um I I thought it was protein drinks. I
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studied online or maybe teenager stuff. I would talk to his dad. We got to
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straighten him out. He's not. And um
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he pulled it an incident on me that reflecting back there was a lot going
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on. He played every play in the football at high
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school football. He played 60 plays a game at least. They never threw the ball
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ever. They called Patrick the horse. And so he was getting the ball all the time.
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Every now and then somebody else, but everybody knew Patrick was going to get
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the ball and everybody went after him.
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>> And so he would come back home like a piece of meat. He was blue and red and
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just horrible. And
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um
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>> you were mentioning an incident that uh that
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>> Oh yes, I'm sorry. So um I phased out right away.
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>> Well,
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>> where am I? It's it's a long day at the Mac Parkman Foundation.
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>> It was I tell you
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>> tired.
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>> This is the first one I've been to. Your second?
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>> Yes. This Yeah. Right.
12:26
>> Right. Yeah.
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>> And my first and I'll tell you, listening to the speakers today,
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it is absolutely awesome.
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>> Yeah, it it I'm very proud.
12:40
>> Listen to Frank Lurin talking about his son.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, an incident we had, um,
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Patrick was getting beat up a lot and he was down in the basement drinking
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with his buddies and one of the kids was like 12 or 13
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years old and I flipped and I said, "What are you doing?" And I
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grounded him. And the next day at work, I get a call. Mom, I I don't want to be
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grounded. And I went, you're grounded. There's nothing else I can do about it.
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And I hung up the phone and I'm like going, "For once I'm going to be strong.
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For once I'm going to be, you know, he's not going to." And the next call I got
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was from my daughter. He had taken a whole bottle of Tylenol. The ambulance
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was on its way. So looking back,
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I think his brain was so inflamed from that whole season of trying to get
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to the championships and him always having the ball and
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getting beaten up. I think that could have been a suicidal attempt.
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And so that was a sign. And then he was starting to get in fights and Patrick
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never got in fights. And so that all kind of subsided and he went got
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accepted at Deerfield Academy, went there, was beloved.
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I didn't see or hear anything else that whole
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next year. So we're good to go. We're fine. And then he gets to Dartmouth. And
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then I start to hear different crazy things that he would do, but it was not.
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It was like college stuff. College. And my ex used to do college stuff like try
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to chew glass and do different things like
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>> sounds like a cowboy.
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>> Yeah. Who wouldn't?
14:55
>> I thought that's
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>> I never tried to chew glass.
14:58
>> Okay, good.
14:59
>> I thought
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>> you're smarter than I I thought.
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>> Just, you know, throwing TVs in the cars. Stupid stuff. guys, too. I thought
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that was just uh I would hear funny stories. We go
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>> fraternity frat stories.
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>> Yeah.
15:13
>> But his senior year at college, he couldn't pass French no matter how
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hard he tried. And he had a test done and they said he had a processing
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disorder.
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>> And I went, "What the heck is a processing disorder?" And it's the
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information they're hearing is not what's being said.
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And boy, that's CTE. If you live with someone with CTE, you can have a
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conversation and they're hearing something totally different.
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>> Gibberish.
15:52
>> So that was another sign that he was maybe starting to get CTE.
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graduated, came home, he got diagnosed with ADHD. Where did that come from? How
16:06
do you graduate from Dartmouth
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>> and now you've got ADHD? And then it was
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>> PTSD and then he was addicted to painkillers, Percoet.
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Rehab said he had um what was the anger issue? One,
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explosive disorder. I mean, these things just kept happening on top of and the
16:33
rehab places said, um, you need to
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play hard ball. You need to with the drug addiction, you need to let him hit
16:45
bottom. And two weeks before Patrick died, he said, "Mom, I know what you're
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trying to do." He said, "You're trying to make me hit
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bottom." So, he was on to me.
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>> And and to put it in perspective, that was 10 years ago, 11 years ago when he
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said that to her, we had never heard the words chronic traumatic encphylopathy.
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We didn't know anything about repetitive head injuries. And this was all
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just vapor. I mean, nobody knew. And when Patrick passed,
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one of the first things that Karen said, "If only I knew." And that's one of the
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themes here at the convention. We, you know, if only we know. And awareness is
17:36
growing. It'll never grow fast enough in our humble estimation, but research is
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roaring. You guys are doing your podcasts. People are talking about it
17:48
freely. People are beginning to understand the concept. We never
17:52
imagined it would take 11 years to even have this discussion, but we're having
17:56
it. And parents today, maybe if they become aware of the situation, if they
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have a child in gymnastics or collision sports or, you know, someplace where
18:08
they're going to hit their head and they start seeing behaviors, they may they
18:12
may start to think about, oh, the brain. We learned the hard way that the brain
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is more fragile than we've ever known. And we don't have to live. We have to
18:24
now live in a different world where we have to protect this as much as we
18:28
protect our eyes and our teeth and our ears and the other parts of our body.
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the uh so we we are okay parents we we talk about I I have kind of evolved my
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attitude towards playing football at youth you know when
18:51
when I 10 years ago I was sitting in an owner's box with Chris Nuinsky a a
18:57
football professional football team the the the
19:01
Jaguars owners box and I I was sitting with Chris and I said Chris, I I chose
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to ba play this game. And he said, "But Paul, um uh what about those
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seven-year-old kids? They're not choosing to play. They're either playing
19:16
because their fathers want them to play or their mothers want
19:20
them to play." Very few are saying
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>> friends want to play.
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>> Yeah. Very few are saying you're seeing football on on the screen and saying, "I
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got to play football."
19:31
>> Yeah. But um
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>> I think the toughest thing is when they get to middle school and I we
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experienced this with Patrick's son Payton. They get to middle school and
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uh the Cole boys are starting to play football.
19:51
>> And when you're in ninth grade, you want to be the coal kid. M
19:56
>> and um
19:59
>> it's it's it's not it's not easy in today's culture, you know, it's so
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sports concussive head related sports uh
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crazed that these kids, yeah, they're exposed to it and of course they want to
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be in the cool cool crowd, the but
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>> it's just amazing when you start learning about the science.
20:26
So, I went from I chose to, okay, maybe flag football
20:33
until you're 14 years old. Well, I didn't start playing football until 14
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years old.
20:40
>> I know. I know. I I I think Patrick's probably worst damage was high school.
20:47
>> Really?
20:47
>> Yeah. I don't think I mean I I don't know. I'll never know. But I would say
20:53
high school. I would say I I would so looking back on
20:58
our tailback at in in high school who got the ball every time because he was
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the superstar I I don't doubt that
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>> he doing now
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>> um he's he's we have we who have had repeated head
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impacts and we lose some of our executive function we can snap back into
21:23
it and be focused for a little while. Exactly. He he does he he actually runs
21:30
a successful business.
21:32
>> Um but he has the headaches he had. I mean he
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he got beat up just like Patrick.
21:41
>> But but Paul, when you decided to play football at 14, what was your biggest
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fear?
21:47
>> Not not getting my head.
21:48
>> It was orthopedic. It was breaking bones, breaking your back, being
21:53
paralyzed.
21:53
>> Yeah. You you I No. No. No. Coach told me hitting your head. I you know I
21:59
started understanding because because in college
22:02
>> I endur during double sessions.
22:05
>> Yeah.
22:06
>> I would every hit it was an excruciating pain
22:13
just you you know four Advil just to get on the field and then go through a
22:17
practice. And we we were actually
22:21
>> I think we were actually concussed while we were pract practicing. I mean
22:25
practicing when you have a lowgrade concussion or whatever, but you you're
22:30
seeing stars every time you're hitting and you're you're you're cringing just
22:34
to the pain in your head and you're like, "Oh, but still nobody
22:40
>> brave. I I got to give it to so brave."
22:42
>> Nobody said that's not good. But eventually you you you you start to
22:47
smarten up and saying that's probably not good. And and in fact in the NFL
22:52
they they started getting 300 lb
22:55
>> and
22:56
>> and Cy when you strap yourself on a on a Bronco what was your biggest fear?
23:02
>> I death.
23:03
>> The heck was it?
23:05
>> Death.
23:05
>> Death.
23:06
>> Death. Oh death.
23:07
>> Yeah.
23:07
>> Not not of the Bronco.
23:10
>> No me dying. That but
23:12
>> I've lost friends in the arena. Yes.
23:15
>> Wow.
23:15
>> In the arena.
23:16
>> In the arena.
23:17
>> Yeah.
23:18
>> Um or on the way to the hospital or at the hospital after an injury.
23:23
>> In rodeo, we have a saying. It's not a matter about getting hurt. You're going
23:29
to get hurt. It's a matter of how bad when it happens. And I've had five
23:36
shoulder surgeries. I've had a neck fusion. I've had two back fusions. I've
23:42
broken several bones. all of my ribs. I've been metaphited
23:48
and it's you look at it and I look back as a kid now and I go I
23:56
was riding that Jeep at four or five years old because my stepfather thought
24:01
it was cool, you know, putting me on a sheep and it
24:04
just goes out and runs around. you fall off and ye,
24:09
you know, but then you get to look. I can't remember when I had my first
24:14
concussion. I can't remember
24:18
most of my childhood. I can't remember. But
24:23
um you look at the repeated head impacts,
24:29
it's like I said today when they had me speaking at the M Parkman Summit is that
24:34
there's no safe age.
24:37
>> No,
24:37
>> there's not.
24:38
>> No,
24:39
>> I mean people say wait until you're 14. Paul waited till he was 14.
24:46
>> And he's pro players didn't start,
24:49
>> right? And then
24:50
>> so
24:50
>> we didn't even have a high school in my hometown.
24:53
>> If you're capable, you're going to make it no matter when you start.
24:57
>> And if so, in my book, there's no safe age. So what do we need to do? We need
25:04
to share hope. We need to share awareness. We need to share modality. We
25:08
need to let these kids know that if they get their head knocked, it's okay to
25:14
look at the coach and saying, "Dude, I can't see straight." Because I think a
25:19
lot of the problem in football is in the pop warner and the lower
25:24
>> in the lower ranks where there's no
25:27
>> there's no medical attention. There's no team.
25:30
>> And the key word for us is awareness.
25:33
>> And the awareness that we seek or at least that we've discussed is when we
25:38
say lung cancer, what do you think of?
25:41
>> Cigarettes,
25:42
>> right? Yeah.
25:43
>> And you could start when you're seven or 12 or 20, but that's what we think of.
25:48
But when we see brain injury or or repetitive head trauma or CTE,
25:55
we don't know what to think yet. But it would be awareness would be the greatest
26:00
if we automatically say, was there a history of repetitive head trauma of
26:06
some kind in this person's past that might send them to a to a less than sane
26:13
state of mind and we're not we're not there yet. We've got a long way to go.
26:17
>> I think I think too sports to your point sports could do a lot better to protect
26:24
the players. Um there's no reason to hit in practice.
26:29
>> None.
26:30
>> And that is still going on in my community. I can hear him on Tuesday
26:37
banging. And
26:38
>> I live in Texas.
26:40
>> Yeah, I know. You were you were saying you were saying
26:44
>> there's no reason those kids should have their brains inflamed Monday, Tuesday,
26:48
Wednesday, Thursday, and go into that game on Friday totally inflamed. There's
26:54
no reason for that. And I I think that's a travesty in this country. I think it's
27:01
just wrong that we're doing
27:02
>> you look at it, you know, fitness steps, timing.
27:10
>> There's so much education. You can learn your agilities and all the the things
27:17
that go your proper techniques, right? You you can practice proper tackling
27:22
techniques without hitting another player. You can you know those tackling
27:26
dummies you can easily keep your head of head out of it and use your shoulder.
27:32
But how many of these kids do you think are you were talking about the weight of
27:36
your big toe on the line putting pressure down on the big toe for a
27:42
certain move or something. That's what these kids could learn. They don't need
27:47
to learn to hit that guy. It's
27:50
>> if I move my body and use my mechanics to hit this way, it's a safer hit. It's
27:56
not It's not Hey, Johnny. I mean, I saw it on Facebook the other day. There's
28:03
two kids. I bet you they weren't seven years old helmet to helmet.
28:07
>> Well, yeah.
28:10
>> Are you freaking kidding me? And when they when they slammed in because some
28:15
people say, "Oh, the kids are they don't hit hard enough to to cause any and you
28:21
see a se five, six, sevenyear-old slamming and their heads snapping back
28:26
because their neck muscles are not strong enough to even absorb any of the
28:31
the contact or the blow. That's the the subconcussive hits that cause the metro
28:38
uh health issues
28:40
>> and the brain damage. brain damage.
28:42
>> There is brain damage.
28:44
>> Yeah.
28:45
>> So, I don't like to talk a lot about CTE because it's like I said today,
28:51
the only way I'm going to find out if I have CTE is by dying and I'm not ready
28:56
to die yet.
28:57
>> Biomarkers are on their way.
28:59
>> Huh?
29:00
>> I think biomarkers are on their way and I think a couple years they're going to
29:04
be able to say right
29:06
>> yes or no.
29:07
>> Well, we were talking to one fell
29:09
>> Yeah. about he's in Colorado, right? And he was talking about a biioarker that
29:16
they're working on
29:17
>> in I think St. Petersburg, right?
29:19
>> Or St. Petersburg. Okay.
29:22
>> Well, it it is exciting that the research is ongoing. But again, back to
29:29
there's no safe age and parents. I I love
29:33
>> I love football. I love to watch football. I love rodeo. I never want to
29:37
stop rodeo. I mean, my brothers, if I was healthy right now,
29:42
I'd be getting on a bucking horse knowing what I know.
29:44
>> Well, so, but but you you do say on the podcast frequently that um okay, if if
29:52
the parents, you know, at a certain age, if the parents want to play or if the
29:56
Johnny wants to play contact football, the parents need to have a meeting.
30:03
There's got to be a presentation of what can happen.
30:06
>> A one-day conference.
30:07
>> One day conference.
30:08
>> And bring in people like Karen. Bring in people like Bruce Parkman of the M.
30:14
Parkman Foundation. Bring in people like me or you or Chris Boyce that suffer
30:21
from it and let these kids and I make it to where I would love to see a letter
30:28
that they have to sign. the mother, the father, and the participant.
30:33
>> All the symptoms, a letter with all the symptoms to look for if you're starting
30:38
to see behavioral issues that could be brain inflammation,
30:42
>> right?
30:43
>> You don't
30:44
>> you have some documentation uh like that on on stopct.org
30:49
Mhm.
30:50
>> And we we highly recommend if you want to learn any about repeated head impacts
30:56
and and um CTE and and and and the problems that stem from repeated head
31:01
impacts, get on stopct.org and just scroll through and uh and uh
31:09
you know, you're going to you're going to learn so much about um this subject
31:14
and this topic. And if you're suffering from it or feel like you're suffering
31:20
from it, reach out to Karen at stopct.org.
31:26
And also, if you're going to if you're going to go to a doctor, she has a form
31:32
>> that she had done that you can go in and mark off all your symptoms and
31:38
everything and take that form. Whoop, sorry, guy. uh take the form to your
31:44
neurologist and say here the Karen don't like me saying it but
31:56
if you ask me who's more important in the world of CTE
32:02
CLF or you
32:04
>> oh silly
32:05
>> I pick you.
32:06
>> Oh silly.
32:07
>> Now I'm going to say something. CLF and their support groups and their helplines
32:12
and everything are phenomenal for everybody are phenomenal.
32:16
>> That's where we actually met uh on the helpline on Zoom. Yeah. And so yeah, I
32:21
mean Concussion Legacy Foundation
32:24
>> when they started that helpline, I cried
32:28
>> out of happiness. You knew
32:30
>> because at that time I was dealing well I was dealing with
32:34
>> and I'm not qualified
32:37
>> to do that and I
32:39
>> you're qualified
32:41
>> and I was stealing
32:42
>> you live through it more than most
32:44
>> a day from people needing help and and so that that helpline is a
32:50
>> like it's saving lives and I'm proud of that.
32:53
>> And the kid the kids that run it like Tyler
32:56
>> Yeah. They are they know how to counsel and they they are so affirmative. Every
33:02
guy every share and we're talking some people that are way worse that off than
33:08
Corey.
33:09
>> But but not very much.
33:11
>> Well, no, but but but Corey gets to share on the um those calls all the time
33:17
and people really appreciate what he has to say. But Tyler and when somebody you
33:24
know they're hurting, Tyler will let them speak and then he'll reaffirm them.
33:29
I'm sorry that you you you you have gone through this tragedy and this trauma and
33:34
all they need.
33:35
>> That's all they need to hear that they've been heard.
33:38
>> Nobody knows.
33:39
>> Well, and then you get someone like me on there which CLF likes. Tyler and Mike
33:45
both have reached out to me and said, "Man, we love you being on the sport
33:49
group." Because it's like, dude, you got to realize something. How many years did
33:55
you play football? How many years did you box? How many years did you do It
34:00
took that many years to get you where you're at right now?
34:06
>> We're not going to cure you tomorrow.
34:08
>> That's true.
34:08
>> It's going to take that many years to get you back. it if you got the
34:14
dedication and drive to play a sport to be in contact and I mean there's people
34:19
on there that are military and other avenues skaters and everything but if
34:25
you're dedicated enough to become the best of what you are
34:33
by gosh darn it I'm going to get riled because I do every time I talk like this
34:39
you can be that dedicated ated to get yourself healed. When it comes to
34:45
suicide, I get so pissed off because you know what? I've called this man. I don't
34:53
tell him, "Hey, I'm thinking of killing myself, you know, because I'm not that
34:59
way." But it's like, "Hey, Paul, talk to me about something. Get my brain stuck
35:03
on a subject. Get me off of that subject." And he'll hold that
35:07
conversation until we get going. Now, does he know I'm suicidal? Not all the
35:12
time and none anymore. Now he pretty much
35:16
just tells me to f off. I'm busy.
35:18
>> See, I'm trying.
35:19
>> But oh, it's him. Okay.
35:23
>> Time.
35:24
>> But you look at it. If it took you 30 years to get abused, it's going to take
35:30
you a few years. And if you can't last a day, you can last an hour. If you can't
35:35
last an hour, you can last a minute. If you can't last a minute, last till
35:40
second. What's your favorite sun up to sunset? Well, and and what you're what
35:45
you're speaking, the language you're speaking right now is the language that
35:50
we need to keep touting and shouting through the rooftops. Because if Patrick
35:57
or Mac had this outlet or had some way to communicate what they were feeling
36:04
and what they were going through, they they would have had a chance. Just like
36:09
you you guys have both said if we had only known. You already said you you
36:13
just said that about Karen. Um that she said if we if we had only known and wow
36:20
and that's what's hard is denial.
36:23
>> Right. I will admit I got diagnosed in 99 with cognitive nerve damage
36:30
from UCSF, University of California, San Francisco
36:35
of cognitive nerve damage from too many hits to the head.
36:39
Did I accept that D? No. I'm a cowboy. I'm going to buck up, shut up, and get
36:44
up, and I'm going to go live my life.
36:46
>> Did you do you see what I have to deal with?
36:48
>> Yes.
36:49
>> And then, you know, 2014 happened. Buck up. Shut up. I was in denial.
36:57
>> We watched Concuss and my wife started crying and go, "Oh my god, honey, that's
37:02
you."
37:03
>> Concussion with
37:04
>> Yeah. Concussion with Will Smith.
37:07
>> And then, you know, I started paying a little bit of attention to it in 14, but
37:13
still, you know, I got my life to live. I got to work. I got to make money. I
37:17
got to do this. I got to do this. I'm married. I have a child. I need to be a
37:22
parent. I need to be a man. And so I still pushed it off and dealt
37:27
with what I had to deal with internally. And it caused my daughter problems.
37:33
It's caused my wife problems. And we've been married almost 27 years.
37:39
And she's took through me through all of this. But you know,
37:44
>> an angel. If you have symptoms, there's hope, there's awareness, there's
37:51
modality. There's people like Bruce Parkman, people like Karen Zagal, people
37:56
like Concussion Legacy Foundation
37:59
>> Yeah. There's support groups. Like six years ago, we tried to start a support
38:05
group and it just kind of fizzled out. Now they're all over the place,
38:10
>> right? Oh, dude, they got support groups for everything now.
38:13
>> Everything. Thank God. [ __ ] Yeah.
38:16
>> But there's one thing that Karen put on the website that's I think very helpful,
38:21
which is a little bit of a tutorial on things you should say and things you
38:26
really shouldn't say to someone who's suffering mental challenges because you
38:32
can you can poke the bear or you can you can soothe the bear,
38:37
>> you know. and and uh just a few and once you read that you get the idea of how
38:43
you approach because now you're not a parent as much as you're a caregiver
38:49
>> right
38:49
>> under those circumstances and now you don't want to toughen them up. you want
38:54
to make them get through the next day, you know, or get through the next few
38:58
hours or see that there's a better way to to to handle the crisis that we're
39:04
dealing with right now, which just could be about jelly beans because it doesn't
39:09
>> and it's 100% preventable.
39:12
>> Yeah.
39:12
>> Take out practice, take out all the head hits, reduce the amount of concussions.
39:18
You can pretty much I'm not going to say 100% preventable, but you can reduce it
39:24
by 80% easy by reducing the amount of contact,
39:28
>> you know. So, it's preventable, but I want to let you guys get back to the
39:34
party because you are a title sponsored. I want you to enjoy.
39:40
>> Hot. I
39:41
>> Yeah, those are LED. They're there.
39:44
>> Oh, they're not.
39:45
>> And uh but I want to thank you again for
39:48
>> It's just being here with you guys.
39:50
>> You're warm. You warm people.
39:52
>> I want to thank you for being our sponsors again. Thank you for being a
39:55
title sponsor to this
39:57
>> sponsor. We're very proud of you and you did a good job today on the panel. You
40:02
really educated a lot of people that
40:06
>> it was a good thing in that room for you to be there and talk. What do you both
40:11
want to get out of today going forward? I mean, tomorrow going forward, this
40:16
this conference. Um, just more or where. Tell us what you're
40:23
>> um
40:25
>> I think everybody in the room pretty much knows
40:29
what we're dealing with. I think collaboration is what I'm hoping for.
40:34
>> I'm hoping more people
40:36
>> say, "Let's work together. Let's try.
40:40
>> Wouldn't that be great? Get the traditional and non-traditional medical
40:44
team together. It's like I always talk about my miracle meeting. I would love
40:48
to get like Ann McKe, Dr. Tanner, Mark Gordon, Dr. Raymond, get the Ambio, get
40:56
all this. Guess what? You got a dry run at that right here. And you know, my
41:01
takeaway from this conference is there are powerful people doing great research
41:06
and bringing hope to all of us because we're this close to to opening the door,
41:12
finding the key. So, if we can diagnose this disease, if we can if we can
41:17
understand what's going on with brain damage and brain injury, we just haven't
41:24
been there. We've been fixing hearts and lungs and livers and kidneys and knees.
41:30
Heck,
41:31
>> you can do 3D imaging and get stuff printed now to replace an organ,
41:37
>> you know. But I guarantee you, I know what the number one cause is.
41:42
I can reach in my wallet and pull out as many dollars as you want. And it's all
41:47
about the money.
41:48
>> Unfortunately,
41:48
>> that's what it's all about. You got the NFL, you got everybody,
41:53
>> all of us,
41:53
>> right? that there's progress.
41:55
>> It's going to take a village to
41:57
>> We're not the We don't have that many billions,
42:00
>> but together
42:02
>> Oh, come on.
42:03
>> We can add it up a little bit.
42:06
>> Well, you guys have been a blessing to us and uh to the whole movement of CTE
42:12
and repeated head impact. So, keep doing what you're doing. We need you. We love
42:17
you guys. And thank you so much for
42:19
>> with all our heart.
42:20
>> We love you, too. And I stole the hat.
42:23
>> You stole the hat.
42:24
>> I stole the hat. Don't knock it. You stole it or
42:27
>> I stole it right off that table at the Parkman Foundation.
42:32
>> We got it.
42:32
>> I grabbed and ran. I'm like, I'm getting it
42:35
>> in the in the offering plate. Come on. Let's thank you all.
42:39
>> This episode of the Head Rush podcast is brought to you by our personal doctor
42:44
and team of doctors. Uh Dr. Misel Myisel Deo and she's with the Paradise
42:51
Behavioral Health and we are in the Brainwell program which is also part of
42:57
the Millennium Health Center. Uh Dr. Mark Gordon, you've seen him on Joe
43:03
Rogan and even on our show, the Head Rush podcast.
43:08
Um and the hormones and Myelle is awesome.
43:15
We love her. She's she's our doctor of psychiatry. She works for the Mark
43:19
Gordon program with the hormones and uh and she she adds her twist of genetics
43:26
and um and it's it's it basically is melding two wonderful uh uh mediums
43:33
together and we're getting great help from Dr. Myisel Deo.
43:37
>> So please check out her website at paradisebehavioral.com.
43:43
>> Look up the brainwell program. get involved.
43:47
>> She's sponsoring us. They're they're sponsoring us for the next year. So, we
43:50
are excited to have them on board and uh and and shout the new the good news to
43:56
everybody uh that is watching these broadcasts. So,
44:00
>> is she helping you, Paul?
44:02
>> Absolutely.
44:03
>> She's helping me. So, go check her out. Paradise Behavioral Health.com.
44:10
>> Welcome back, folks. We're still on our second episode, but we swapped out
44:14
guests as you can see, is no longer the lovely Karen Zagel and Doug Eagle.
44:20
>> Ladies and gentlemen, this man, I got to give him a lot of credit. He started
44:24
before us. He started before a lot of people on Facebook. His name is Max Gray
44:31
and he runs the chronic traumatic and sephilopathy news Facebook page and he
44:38
shares a lot of our stuff, a lot of Chris Boyce's, a lot of other people's.
44:43
He really hones in on this disease and the brain injury so much that he came
44:51
here to the M Parkman repeated head conference.
44:54
>> And what a conference it is. He he's been So you've been um collaborating
45:00
with Karen and Doug Zagle of the uh CTE or stopct.org
45:05
for seven or eight years.
45:07
>> Yes. And um you know I kind of look at myself uh I try to provide a whole
45:12
spectrum on CTE whether it's news breaking news opinion uh just videos to
45:20
uh informative of what CTE is from trusted sources and uh so I try to get
45:27
that out so people like you can be informed to do your jobs and f and know
45:33
what's going on. Let me ask you, people don't just decide to start talking about
45:40
CTE and supporting giving support to other groups. What is your tie with CTE?
45:46
Well, uh, my nephew died in 2012 very tragically, similar to many deaths that
45:54
you've heard concerning CTE. And for a couple years, you know, we were just
45:59
numb. Uh we had seen him kind of spiral down since he was age 16 and um we just
46:07
wanted to know what happened to his life. One day I was researching and I
46:13
found uh a PBS video called League of Denial about the NFL trying to hush up
46:20
uh Bennett Malu's uh groundbreaking research on finding pathology of CT in
46:26
the brain. And as I watched those episodes, I said, "This is my nephew.
46:35
This is him." And um so that started me on CTE. And I and in 2016, I decided I'm
46:47
going to start sharing. I see quite a bit of CTE content coming out. I'm gonna
46:52
start sharing it in one place and maybe people like you will pick it up and and
46:58
just regular people pick it up and share it and we'll start learning about these
47:04
people that are playing sport and not knowing they're damaging their brain.
47:08
Parents can make better decisions, players can make better decisions,
47:12
doctors can even learn about this disease. So, I started in 2016 and I've
47:18
posted thousands of articles and research papers, documentaries,
47:24
everything you can think of concerning CTE. And um I think I've probably, you
47:30
know, looking at the metrics and everything, probably reached
47:34
3 400,000 people over that time period.
47:38
>> I bet I bet more than that.
47:39
>> Yeah.
47:40
>> Yeah. So, I'm hoping some good results came from that over
47:45
those years, but it's in honor of my nephew. I started it on Valentine's Day
47:51
2016.
47:52
>> Wow. Well, that's that's powerful because again, it doesn't just happen.
47:57
CTE is starting to affect more people, but awareness needs to be raised. These
48:03
discussions need to take place. Karen and Doug Zagal. We call them he he calls
48:09
Karen the the godfather of of the of the CTE awareness movement, right? And
48:14
obviously they lost their their dear son to a suicide and he was stage two CTE, I
48:21
believe.
48:22
>> And uh and the only
48:27
years ago when they started out, nobody wanted to hear. And I I remember talking
48:31
to uh Chris Leuh Nuinsky uh of the CLF and uh he used to get booed off the
48:38
stage when he tried to talk to coaches and parents about the dangers of uh the
48:44
CTE. I mean, yeah, you know, they're all he he was all about it was just CTE was
48:49
the holy grail. Now it's he's getting into repeated head impacts. I mean,
48:54
Bruce Bruce is uh his influence of repeated head impacts and Karen's of
49:02
repeated head impacts and repeated blast exposures, you know, regarding the
49:06
military,
49:07
>> right?
49:08
>> Um it's it's bringing a whole new light and a whole new education and awareness.
49:15
You're pumping that information out there. You're feeding us new
49:19
information,
49:20
>> right? And uh I mean that's
49:22
>> and sharing ours
49:24
>> and sharing. So please go like
49:26
>> yeah you guys have content
49:30
>> you guys are have a lot of networking uh in in your show and you are learning
49:36
things that I don't see published. So I'm I'm posting news on you guys. Well,
49:42
we hear it from the horse's mouth like Bruce Parkman and he he funded a
49:46
research at the university that 15
49:50
>> Oh, you haven't heard about that?
49:51
>> I didn't know Bruce funded it. I had I heard about the study. I had no idea
49:55
Bruce was involved.
49:56
>> Yeah. 152 under 30 30 and under dead athletes, 100%
50:04
had um 100% had brain damage and 100% had mental health issues. 40 41% had CTE
50:12
and they didn't play professionally.
50:15
>> Right.
50:15
>> Right. I don't I don't so it is a lot more prevalent and and the
50:21
awareness had please if you're a parent out there I've kind
50:30
just through speaking with different doctors and finding out that the myelin
50:35
sheath is not even started to cover the you know that's the fatty white tissue
50:42
it it it covers the axons the neuronal axons and protects
50:47
>> and it's not even for formed in these sevenyear-old kids that put the helmets
50:52
on and start banging their heads.
50:55
>> Their brain head doesn't have a chance
50:56
>> or cowboys or soccer players or hockey players or right
51:01
>> any sport
51:02
>> any any concussive sport
51:04
>> any concussive or a sport where there's a risk of injury.
51:08
>> Yeah. Um, and so getting the hope and
51:13
awareness out there, talking about it, I think is key. Getting
51:19
noticed on Facebook like you have. Your followers are tremendous. You have a
51:24
great amount of followers. I wish we had that many.
51:30
Um, but we're growing.
51:32
>> We're growing. And
51:33
>> you're growing extremely fast cuz I it's been a you know my my my graph is is
51:39
like this, you know.
51:41
>> Yeah.
51:41
>> But you guys are are going up like this right now.
51:44
>> We're getting over 100 to 150 followers a week.
51:48
>> Yeah.
51:48
>> You got a crazy
51:49
>> You guys got the personal aspect. your your podcast not only is informative and
51:56
very hopeful about this disease and and all the diseases related to repetitive
52:03
impacts, but you guys are actually entertaining too. And I watch you for
52:08
their entertainment aspect also.
52:11
>> Entertains me all the time.
52:12
>> Me tinning in again.
52:14
>> Well, we're we're uh
52:16
>> he he likes to poke the bear.
52:18
>> Yeah.
52:18
>> No, he does. He said he doesn't, but he likes to poke the bear.
52:22
>> Well, if to poke the bear, you get a response that can really be good. So,
52:29
and and that's that's what you
52:30
>> brings out some passion.
52:31
>> Yeah. And that's what that's what you're doing with, you know, you're you're
52:34
poking the bear. You're you're you're you're bringing information out that no
52:38
no people don't really see and don't understand and don't know. So, keep keep
52:44
poking the bear. Keep uh bringing the information. Well, back to repetitive
52:48
head impacts and uh Bruce's idea and and and you guys have embraced it and the
52:54
Patrick Risha and Karen and Doug have embraced it. I think it's more relatable
52:59
to people,
53:00
>> right?
53:01
>> So, you can only go so far talking about CTE or frontal lobe dementia or whatever
53:07
else because people, you know, their eyes start, you know, closing on you.
53:12
But if you talk about something as simple as getting your head racked,
53:17
>> right,
53:18
>> that happens in a lot of different situations. You get a fight at school,
53:22
you get arrested and you're drunk and you fight with, you know, uh in prison,
53:28
uh domestic abuse, and then all of the sport and activities and then the uh the
53:34
military. So there's just millions of people that are interested in repetitive
53:40
head impacts and its effect on brain health and your overall health.
53:45
>> And understand this that there is hope, there are modalities, there are things
53:51
that you can do to help your brain health and your brain heal. uh uh
53:58
inflammation is is the culprit and there's there's ways even as simple as
54:04
uh you know omega-3s that can lower inflammation in the brain. Take them
54:10
with your polyphenols though. Take your extra virgin olive oil for the omega-3s,
54:15
but they take a handful of polyphenols. Uh blueberries, blueberries, and stuff
54:19
like that.
54:20
>> Every year,
54:20
>> eat lots of fish.
54:21
>> Eat lots of fish. Every year I post at least two times the Mediterranean diet
54:27
because I continually see that it is best for brain health.
54:33
>> Yes.
54:33
>> And inflammation. So I post that two times a year. I don't know that it's
54:39
it's it's a it's a silver bullet or anything, but it it's going to stop some
54:43
inflammation.
54:44
>> Absolutely. It that that's that's a part, you know, uh we were just talking
54:48
to Dr. um Mark Gordon. You know, he's got a a term called neuropermissive.
54:54
You need to give your brain the ability to heal and you can only do that by
55:00
healing you taking the inflammation out of the brain and and the things that are
55:04
causing damage.
55:05
>> Yeah.
55:06
>> And simp as simple as a diet like that, the Mediterranean diet has proven
55:12
>> right capabilities of brain health. So
55:16
>> all the things, the bad things that happen when you get your head hit.
55:20
>> Yeah.
55:20
>> From repetitive head impacts,
55:24
>> they're being help all of that's being helped by that diet, right?
55:29
>> Whether it it's any of those diseases, any of those nerve conditions, emotional
55:34
conditions, inflammation is driving all of that. And if you're working on that
55:40
that you know, you're going right at the heart of the problem.
55:42
>> Right. Right. Well, we've we've had a great time talking with you.
55:47
>> We'll let you get back to the party.
55:48
>> I feel like I know I've known you guys for like six, seven months, which I have
55:53
over the over the internet that we just met today at the hotel.
55:57
>> Well, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for uh you doing what you do and sharing
56:02
and uh and share, like, and all that fun stuff.
56:06
>> Go to chronic dramatic and seepilopathy news. Share, like, follow. But also make
56:14
sure you go to the Headrush podcast, share, like, follow. Go to our Google
56:19
platforms, go to YouTube, do everything. Do reviews, do whatever makes you happy
56:26
because if you're happy, we're happy.
56:29
>> We're happy. And and it's about awareness and hope. Thank you. Thank you
56:33
for keeping hope alive. Absolutely.
56:35
>> Let's grab another guest.
56:36
>> All right, we'll do. Thank you, man.
56:38
>> All right. Welcome to the Head Rush podcast brought to you by the Patrick
56:43
Gisha CTE Awareness Foundation. Karen Zagel, thank you so much. So, go to
56:51
stopctte.org, learn about their foundation. Um, and
56:56
and they are sponsoring us for the next year. We are thrilled to have them, team
57:00
up with them, and bring awareness to this disease. So, please go to their
57:05
Facebook page, go to their website, check them out. Karen is very, very,
57:13
very willing to work with you. Um, contact her and if you do know her,
57:18
thank her for us or just go on their Facebook page and say, "Thank you for
57:22
sponsoring the Head Rush podcast."
57:24
>> Dude, I tell you, the two episodes, I don't think we'll be able to beat it for
57:29
a while,
57:30
>> but we will. We absolutely more great guests and more great content and and uh
57:37
yeah, we're we're here finishing up uh two wonderful episodes at the M Parkman
57:43
um summit on repetitive brain trauma in Tampa, Florida. And we've had some
57:50
amazing guests and we still have a day tomorrow to listen to more incredible
57:56
speakers and doctors and so I'm looking forward to tomorrow. Good job tonight.
58:02
>> Thank you. Yeah, the gongs in the back were getting me a little bit.
58:06
>> I bet you they were.
58:08
>> They're probably getting our sound guy, too.
58:11
>> But yeah,
58:12
>> and I want to say thank you to Transcend Studios for coming out. We do everything
58:20
through Real News back in Texas. It was just easier for us to bring out
58:26
Transcend Studios to come out here in Tampa. They did a beautiful job.
58:31
Beautiful lighting, beautiful mics. I want to give them a kudos coming up
58:35
doing a setup, doing everything.
58:37
>> Do you ever need any production?
58:39
>> I want to give cougos. I want to do something different to close out this
58:43
episode.
58:45
>> So, to close this out, y'all have never met my wife before.
58:51
>> This is my beautiful wife, Susan Barry. My therapist you've seen on the episode.
58:59
>> Our therapist.
59:00
>> Our therapist.
59:02
>> First.
59:04
>> First.
59:06
>> She's still trying to
59:07
>> I want to give a shout out to my wife.
59:10
>> Yeah.
59:11
>> She has dealt with this
59:15
>> since 1999.
59:18
>> We're getting ready to do 27 years together.
59:21
>> Mhm. She had supported me, backed me, and been through some crazy crazy [ __ ]
59:30
And now she's supporting and backing me and bringing hope and awareness to a
59:36
disease that may or may not kill me. and for her to say, "Let's go to Tampa,
59:47
you know, and do a repeated head impact and have the podcast there and learn."
59:53
She's sitting there. She ain't at the beach enjoying herself. Ladies and
59:57
gentlemen, she's sitting there at the meetings listening to these speakers
1:00:02
that Bruce brought in and educating herself on how tra
1:00:09
how traumatic this can be and listening to Tatiana McCall talking about her son,
1:00:16
listening to Karen talk about her son. My therapist has come to help me on the
1:00:22
travels and she's sitting through it and doing it all.
1:00:26
And I tell you, the only way we can get hope and awareness out is by beautiful
1:00:32
ladies like this. I was going to invite Christine to come on, but I guess she's
1:00:37
downstairs. So, I'm sorry, Christine. I tried.
1:00:41
>> I I think uh I I think Yeah. Um Susan, no, she's she's holding your feet to uh
1:00:48
Portances in a a month or so, so you guys can actually get a walk on the
1:00:53
beach together. And we're going to take your cowboy boots off and you're going
1:00:57
to ground in the in the
1:00:59
>> That's what I did yesterday.
1:01:01
>> Did you walk in the sand?
1:01:02
>> I walked I even walked into the water.
1:01:06
>> I even walked into Tampa Bay.
1:01:08
>> That salt that salt water wranglers up and walked.
1:01:15
>> Go cowboy.
1:01:17
>> Hey,
1:01:17
>> so I did some ground. I even sent a picture to Nicola Leuke.
1:01:20
>> Yeah. Okay, good. We've got to get him back on soon. So, hey,
1:01:26
great job.
1:01:26
>> Oh, yeah. Awesome job. You You did awesome.
1:01:32
>> We We just You just
1:01:35
>> You did a great job.
1:01:36
>> Well Well, that Well, thank you. That That's so nice. You know what?
1:01:40
>> Positive reinforcement. Come on.
1:01:42
>> The message makes it easy and bringing awareness. Get that book. We I've said
1:01:49
it 10 times in the last 20 minutes. Um, get awareness. Get get it get it get
1:01:56
aware of what happens when repeated head impacts affect your children and and
1:02:03
your loved ones.
1:02:04
>> I want a word from my wife.
1:02:06
>> Yeah.
1:02:07
>> On what she thinks about this weekend so far.
1:02:11
>> You got to talk, right?
1:02:14
>> It's been very enlightening. Um, I watched a very strong woman here
1:02:20
realize something in her life in the last couple of hours and also sitting
1:02:25
here watching you guys and the tears flew flew flew and flowed out today
1:02:33
realizing what everybody has lost while they're dealing with all of this when
1:02:40
people are losing their sons and their husbands and their brothers and their
1:02:43
uncles and their dads. and I still have my husband here. My daughter still has
1:02:48
her dad here. And we're still working to not find a cure. We just want to live
1:02:55
life to the fullest. And we want him to be happy and not progress as fast as
1:03:02
they think he's going to progress.
1:03:05
>> Well, I I I think the hope the the light is growing. Hope is growing. So, let's
1:03:12
let's keep sharing that. Alrighty.
1:03:15
>> All right.
1:03:16
>> Thank you for coming to Tampa.
1:03:17
>> Thank you.
1:03:19
>> Have a good one, folks. Like, share, follow, subscribe, go to Google, go to
1:03:25
all of our platforms, leave us a review or comment on who you want to see on our
1:03:31
podcast or if you have any questions that we haven't answered about Repeated
1:03:36
Head Impacts. Other than that, we'll talk to you later from Texas. And thank
1:03:42
you again, Travis and
1:03:45
>> Lucas.
1:03:45
>> Lucas,
1:03:46
>> Lucas
1:03:46
>> with Trans Studio. You guys did a great job. Thank you so much.
1:03:52
>> Hopefully next year you'll go to Washington DC with us.
1:03:57
>> Have a good one.
1:03:58
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1:04:02
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