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Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson, developer of the Essential Dynamics Framework and host of the Essential Dynamics podcast where we learn about how things work through deep conversations with interesting people. And I'm really excited to welcome Christian Hansen onto the podcast today. Christian?
Christian:Hey, thank you so much, Derek. It's such an honor to be here.
Derek:Hey, well, joining me. First of all, can you just tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself?
Christian:Absolutely. So originally from Los Angeles, that's where I grew up, but I got my start working in higher education admissions of all things. And as I was reading and interviewing thousands and thousands of applications, I realized that I had a front row seat at learning what makes people stand out. And the thing that I noticed was that the students who are most likely to get accepted and to get it, you know, chosen were not the ones who came off as, you know, so remarkable and smart, capable, qualified, rather it was the students who came across as incredibly relatable. And as my career progressed in running MBA programs, in running internship programs, and working in ultra high net worth financial services, the same principle kept coming up.
Christian:The people that consistently got ahead and got chosen were the ones who came across as relatable, not remarkable. And so I found that the path to remarkability is in relatability. And how do you do that and how do you communicate that with people? Well, that's ultimately what I love doing and walking alongside people in different industries and teams and organizations so that they can truly become more relatable so they can achieve and do the remarkable.
Derek:That's fantastic. And so that's what we're, I think, going to be spending our next couple of episodes talking about. So Christian, you're very focused on this particular problem that you've stated you've got the solution and you're very confident in sharing it. And so I'm honored to have you on the show and the question for you is what is it about essential dynamics where you think that we can have a worthwhile conversation?
Christian:You know, the thing about, you know, essential dynamics is being able to, I think, pare back the unessential, right, and the fluff and trying to dig into what are the core things that really face people and organizations from getting to where they wanna go. And in understanding, you know, the core foundations of of what people are trying to navigate, we need to understand that at the beginning of every single interaction that happens is you have to influence people's perception about you or the solution that you offer, right? People don't choose or reject you, they choose or reject their perception of you. And so how can we really dig into some of those subtle things that get in the way of us to effectively communicate our value or the value of whatever it is that we're trying to influence people to choose and how can we, you know, become more influential. And I think when you do that, on an organizational level, that now is starting to make a difference in the organization so it stops getting in the way of itself and you as a person, it stops having you get in the way of yourself as well.
Christian:And I think it really digs into the core dynamics of what makes great organizations and great people do their best work.
Derek:One of the things that we try to do in Essential Dynamics is make complex organizations easier to understand. Yeah. And so we have, know, there's a concept of trying to get to simplicity on the other side of complexity. Yes. And I believe that you've done that in your world.
Derek:And we're trying to do it for the whole organization, which is not easy. But one of the things that became clear as I started understanding what has been working for me is that we can look at three essential elements of an organization. The purpose, the people, and then the path or the processes and systems that the people use to accomplish the purpose. And another thing that we do is that I believe that it's all based on what I call natural laws. That there's a a predictable cause and effect that you can learn and understand.
Derek:And so if we take away the unessential, like you said, and get very, very clear on our purpose, then we're looking at what are the things that we can do to move towards our purpose and what are the barriers or we call the constraints that are in the way of that. So I think that's what you do. So why don't you maybe start with the purpose of the influence mindset? Like, are what if you're using that tool, what are we trying to accomplish?
Christian:Absolutely. So, you know, we got to understand a couple things. That first, like I said, people don't choose or reject you, they choose or reject their perception of you. And so when I communicate and try and present my value, my goal is to either have myself be chosen, my idea be chosen, or the concept that I'm trying to, you know, move forward to influence people to also get on board with. Now the core issue is this, that my brain has been wired by millions of years of evolution to pay attention to certain things.
Christian:And I've discovered if we kind of boil them down, that it boils down to security, resources, novelty, belonging, and status. Okay? Now here's the deal. If my brain is wired to pay attention to those things, then that means your brain is also wired to pay attention to those things. And yet when we communicate, my brain is predisposed to communicate in ways that helps me feel great and to help me feel awesome.
Christian:That hey, I'm asserting my my status. I'm asserting how much I know so that makes me feel more secure. But the problem is is that when I'm speaking to my fundamental brain needs, that means I am overlooking your brain needs. And how can I intentionally shut off and kind of divert my insecure brain needs so I can communicate and position my message so that it appeals to you, to you and your brain needs? And that's the core issue.
Christian:So sometimes when we're presenting our value, we are getting in our own way. And we have phenomenal education systems that are really effective at training us to survive in what I call performance environments, right? Where success is based on how smart, capable, qualified and passionate you are, right? And your ability to perform. But every so often we encounter what I call selective environments where sales, right?
Christian:Leadership opportunities where I am have to influence someone to choose me. And so all of a sudden the the definition of success has changed and if I still walk in doing the song and dance of look how smart capable and qualified I am and I fail to truly persuade you, then I have gotten in my own way, I have limited the impact that I can have and I've inhibited the ability of the idea that I have to truly make a difference in the organization. So how do I communicate to you to bypass the brain's needs and speak directly to your heart and mind? That's what the influence mindset is all about.
Derek:I learned a lot from reading seven Habits of Highly Effective People and I'm sure I'm sure you're you've done that as well. And one of the groundbreaking ideas for me was this idea of seek first to understand and then to be understood.
Christian:Yes.
Derek:Now I didn't necessarily have the tools and the background that you've put into this question, but I can tell you that in negotiations and in tricky strategic situations, I have always been served very well by trying to step out of myself and into the heads of the other people in the room and understanding what they need. And really sometimes to the point, I remember some really tricky negotiations where I understood the our customer's problem better than they did. Was able to explain it better than they did and then was able to provide to them a solution that they didn't know they needed that worked for us.
Christian:That's amazing.
Derek:And I think if I'd had those tools, would have been trying to do the same thing. Is that correct?
Christian:Yes. One of the challenges that we have is that when we say I want to put myself in another person's shoes, often we do so still wearing our own socks. Right? And so if I'm gonna do that, how can I you know, I don't know what I don't know? Right?
Christian:But if I am able to knowingly say, okay, I'm gonna not just step into this person's shoes, but I'm going to also intentionally do the work to take my own socks off first. That's gonna enable me to truly sit into another person's shoes. So one of the ways that I I do that when I'm working with clients and you know, different companies is I try and help them create the operating reality of the person that you're trying to influence. Right? Again, it may be that reality may be real or maybe not, but how do we create the operating reality that they are using to try and create the decisions.
Christian:And one of those questions that I dig into is, okay, so what's at risk if this problem remains unsolved, right? But what is the existential problem that is looming in the distance to them if this problem is not solved? Right? And because looming in the distance of every single thing is a is a deep and and kind of scary thing that's in the distance. And if we can name that, then that's gonna help us truly sit in someone's shoes.
Christian:So it's not about, you know, just losing weight for, you know, for example, you know, around around the turn of the new year, but it's the fear of not being at your daughter's wedding. And you can see how that that is gonna change the the emotional drivers if we can articulate that and truly understand. So how do I take my own socks off as I'm sitting in someone else's shoes?
Derek:So you learned some of this through the college admissions process, which is I think fantastic because you had thousands of data points.
Christian:Yes.
Derek:Can you give me an example of an existential problem that a campus recruiter has that the student could get their head into and perform better?
Christian:Yeah. No. For on the student side, one of the fears that a recruiter has is, you know, we aren't just looking for a well rounded student. We're really looking for a well rounded class. And so one of the fears that we have is that someone's gonna come in and just be so focused on what they do that they are not able to then also step out and make a big difference and improve the lives of everyone else around them.
Christian:For example, there's one student who was a very prominent ballet dancer. He was very top in his state and is exceedingly good at what he did but he made no indication that he was actually gonna make the campus a better place when he came. So my the question that I always pose to students if I'm speaking to students obviously it's very different than when I'm speaking to companies and organizations is instead of you know why are you going to college? My question to them is okay so why are you hiring this college? You know, what is the thing that you're gonna come and hire them to do so that you what's the difference you're gonna make on campus and so that when you come you're gonna make that difference and then one day you're gonna leave and then turn right around and also contribute back?
Christian:But if I get the sense that you're just gonna come and be stuck in your dorm all day playing video games or coding and not talking to other human beings, that's a problem. You know, similarly, I think it's really important if we're in a corporate setting to be able to express okay this is what I think, this is why I'm hiring this company to help me get to where I want to go, this is why I'm hiring this solution that I'm proposing to help us get to where we want to go. Not just simply oh, we need to do this or I want us to do this. But we can say, no, no. By doing the solution, this is the next step.
Christian:And articulating that step beyond the the object is super super important.
Derek:I learned something from a government program representative who was trying to get us to hire unqualified people at our company.
Christian:Oh, interesting.
Derek:Because they were hard to employ. And we were we were not in a position to do that. But I did learn this one valuable lesson from that conversation, so I really appreciate, which was if you're unemployed, you have a have a lot of problems in your life. And if you get a job, a lot of those problems will go away. And so one of the problems that the candidates had is they looked across the table at the hiring manager and thought, if you hire me, all my problems are going to go away.
Derek:And so they became very self focused and they did terrible interviews. Yes. And if they could sit down across the hiring manager, put all that aside and say, since we're here, you obviously have a problem. Yes. And I here I am.
Derek:I'm gonna tell you how I can be part of the solution to your problem, then you'll wanna hire me. But if you I but you don't wanna hire me to solve my problems as an unemployed person. Is that the same idea?
Christian:Yeah. Very, very, very similar. One of the things that, you know, I I frequently talk to people, especially in the sales situations, right, is that we gotta understand that there are four stages of decision making. Okay? First, someone needs to perceive you as relevant.
Christian:Right? That you are relevant to what they're looking for. The second stage is that they need to perceive you as credible, that you can actually do the thing that you say you're going to do, right? You have the background, you've done similar things before. Stage three is they must determine that they must feel some sort of connection to you.
Christian:They have to have some sort of emotional feeling about hiring you, right, or choosing you. And then the final stage is proving that you are reliable. Not just credible, but reliable indicates that you are likely in the future to follow through, right? That the indication. So once you prove that you're relevant, credible, you establish connection and show that you're reliable, you now are able to influence someone to choose you.
Christian:Now the problem is though, is that so much of our language is based in proving our credibility, right? I've done this before. I've done this for this many years. Look at my track record. Here are the facts, figures and achievements that I have.
Christian:However, we gotta understand something that if someone is having a conversation with you seriously about whatever it is you're offering, you need to understand that more often than not, they are in stage three of decision making process which is the connection process. How do they feel about you? So for example, when I was the associate director of an MBA program in Southern California, I get an application, right? And it was a student, right? They have the background and everything, okay?
Christian:They have the scores we're looking for. This is a relevant student for what we're looking for. Next, my mind shifted, okay, are they credible? Can they actually do it? And I looked at the letters of recommendation.
Christian:I look at the, resume. Yep, they look pretty credible. Now I enter into, okay, so how do I feel about this student? Are they gonna play nice in the sandbox? Are they gonna get on with everybody else?
Christian:Well, I don't know. So I would invite them now to an in person interview. And what was fascinating is that I now am at stage three. How do I feel about this student? And time and time again, they'd come in and be playing on the first two stages.
Christian:Well, this is I'm relevant. Well, yeah, I know. That's why you're here. Well, I'm credible. Look at my background.
Christian:Again, I agree. You wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be having the conversation with you if I didn't implicitly agree that you have some basis and credibility. I'm trying to see how do I feel about you. And yet we in sales the same thing happens all the time.
Christian:Someone is saying I wanna have a conversation with you, they're in most likely a connection decision making space. And yet if you walk in playing the fiddle of saying how relevant and credible you are, you're gonna miss them to where they're at. So how can we intentionally air on the side of speak in terms of building connection? That's usually the way that always ensures that you're speaking exactly to the decision making space where the other person's at.
Derek:So what are ways to make that connection then?
Christian:Yeah. There's a number of ways to make the connection. So we we gotta understand that I believe that influence is the product of when competence is combined with connection. Okay? When you have competence and connection together, you've now created influence.
Christian:Now in isolation, k, competence without connection is just noise because everyone else is competent. Similarly, connection without competence is just charm. And again, dig into this in my most recent book, the influence mindset for sales acceleration where I cover the seven EQ brain hacks that make people choose you. So one of the steps though that we can use to create connection is first understanding number one, that my brain is seeking to be the noisy person that's making me feel great and I'm predisposed to ignore your brain's needs. So one of the ways that I help people bypass this is by asking intentional questions or I call them emotional intelligence brain hacks.
Christian:And one of the questions that I think it's important to ask is how can I help this person feel heard and understood right now? In this moment, as I'm speaking with another person, yep, I've got my graphs, I've got the charts, I've got the, you know, whatever it is, the pamphlets I'm pressing, but how can I take a moment and help ensure that this person feels heard and understood right now? And one of the ways that I do that is by saying four words, which is that must have been. When someone says something, I stop and instead of listening to the urge to hijack the conversation in my favor, I intentionally say, boy, that must have been hard, difficult, incredible, whatever it is. I'm trying to mirror their emotions and and our and and I call them parallel amplifiers.
Christian:Where if you share something, I'm going to amplify instead of piggybacking and going off in a completely different direction. I'm going to sit there and say, wow, that must have been incredible. That must have been so difficult. And I'm going to shift the energy back to you so that you can feel like I'm genuinely interested and listening to to what you're sharing.
Derek:And I suppose that works best if you are genuinely interested. It usually helps. So Christian, I want to go back to a concept that we use in Essential Dynamics a lot, which I think you can help us with. And that is that in an organization the fundamental limitation of that organization's ability to, as we try to do, achieve flow or to accomplish objectives and its purposes is the time and attention of the leadership. That's fundamental limitation because anything that a good leader pays attention to is going to get better.
Derek:But they can't pay attention to everything and they often pay attention to the wrong things.
Christian:Yes.
Derek:And so I think you said in your book that attention was the world's most important resource or something like that.
Christian:Yes.
Derek:And we're saying that in an organization it's the top leader's attention that where everything comes from. So how can we use the influence mindset to deal with that scarcity of attention in a genuine but useful way?
Christian:That's a really great question. The thing is is you're trying to say that how do we make sure that the leaders are portioning their attention in the right spaces? Is that correct?
Derek:I see it as two ways. One is they direct their attention to the right place and then when they direct it that way they're useful, like they use it well. Yeah. And so if you're from the other side of that, you need to get some of that attention and then respect it and use it well if the organization's gonna make good choices and move forward.
Christian:Yes. So I believe that attention follows value and connection. And if you want to entice somebody or persuade someone to give you more attention, you need to make sure that what it is you're offering is filled with value and also connection, right? So on one hand, the leadership side, I believe that leadership is not the ability to solve problems, but rather leadership is the ability to identify problems that no one else can see. Okay?
Christian:Number one. So the leader needs to understand that they have their role in leadership is to be not the person in the dog fight, right, but be the guy that's flying at 80,000 feet looking further than anyone else can and to identify the problems. That that's one thing. Mhmm. But in terms of helping your message catch the attention of someone else, there's a really interesting study that came out in 2013 where they interviewed hundreds of thousands of people, again, I referenced this in the book, where they asked, okay, what is the most valuable leadership attribute that you can have?
Christian:And they determined that being perceived as a strategic thinker made your perceived value increased by a factor of nearly 50 times compared to someone else who is highly skilled, right? And and more than that of of someone who's just a good communicator. So if people perceive you as a strategic thinker, then your perceived value is increased by nearly a factor of 50. And that means the value that you're off, your perceived value has just gone up, right? And that's gonna increase the amount of attention that people spend.
Christian:So one of the ways that I teach and help people really position themselves as that strategic thinker is by speaking on the level of insight and wisdom. There are four levels of information, right? You have knowledge, which is simply retained information. Level two is experience where you've applied knowledge. And then level three is insight where you've reflected on insight and then wisdom is when you connect insight into different areas.
Christian:How can we shift your language into these higher levels? Well, instead of saying stuff like, well, I've done this this many times or I've helped this many companies achieve this much in revenue. What if you shifted into this saying, you know, when you help people get these kinds of results as much as I have or when you've worked with the top five companies in the world in this industry, One of the things you notice is, one of the things you begin to see or teams typically miss this important point. Now you're distilling your knowledge and experience into a bite sized thing of insight that the other person is going to now use and pay more attention to. But if I walk into saying look how much I know, look how much I've done, that's more work on the other person's brain to process that.
Christian:But when I speak an insight, I now put a morsel of information that makes it easy for them and easy for their brain who's looking for security, status, resources, belonging, novelty, and I'm presenting something that is neurologically wired to make them go, oh, want to pay more attention to that. So that's one of the ways by shifting your language into insight and wisdom above simply knowledge and experience that you can increase your chances of catching the attention of leaders.
Derek:So Christian, I want to pull this together and so maybe what I'm thinking is let's talk about an individual and maybe the campus scenario is a good one or just maybe an example you could share with us to pull that together about how done well. And I know there's some of those in your book. And then when we get back together again, we can talk more about at the organization level. So can you give us a really good example of putting all this together in a in a campus recruiting scenario?
Christian:Yeah. Campus recruiting situation. This it comes down to how much research has a person done on the company, right? And to be able to walk in and maybe connect with a recruiter and if a candidate can say, you know, I know you're thinking about this problem but actually here's the larger problem that you may not have considered. Right?
Christian:Here's the blind spot that you may not have considered. And how do I know this blind spot? Well, it's because my unique background is a little bit different than yours and that has allowed me to see this from a very different angle that's gonna allow you to see that, right? So for example, you know, we had a student who was applying to, you know, a very successful company and he was meeting with the recruiter, right, and the student came in and he was having the normal interview and then the student said, hey, can I ask you a question? And the recruiter said, yeah, sure.
Christian:And the student said, are you guys aware of this glitch in your hiring system? And they kind of showed, oh no, I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, well this is kind of how it's coming across and because of that, here's how your brand is being influenced and impacted amongst by other students. And so if you're having a hard time recruiting students or attracting students, I think this is a really important thing. And again, look, I noticed this because I come from this background and I've worked on similar hiring things and there are lot of other companies who have struggled with the same thing but it's easily fixable and this is the kind of approach that I typically bring when I work with companies.
Christian:And that was one of those subtle things that helped him identify a blind spot that the other person was unaware of that certainly influenced his hiring and being selected.
Derek:Oh, that's a fantastic example. Exactly what I was looking for. Alright. Well, we're gonna wrap up this one, but Christian, tell us your the name of the book or the books that that you've been referring to and where we can find you online.
Christian:Absolutely. My most recent book is The Influence Mindset for Sales Acceleration, The Seven EQ Brain Hacks That Get People to Choose You and it's on Amazon. I'm also on LinkedIn at Christian L Hansen. Also my website is the Christian Hansen, that's Hansen with an e n. Know none of this o n business.
Christian:We don't talk to the o n Hansen's you know. They took our cabbage in the twelfth century. We're still pretty upset by it but no, but christianthechristianhansen.com, you can learn more there.
Derek:Awesome. That's that's great. I think I have ancestors from from Denmark as well if that's where the that's where the Hansons are from. So Christian Hansen, thanks very much for being on podcast. Bryn Griffiths, thanks for helping us out as well.
Derek:I'm Derek Hudson. You can find me at getunconstrained.com and until next time, consider your quest.