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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is, and where Bitcoin fits in. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, Australia's female-led, Bitcoin-only podcast, it cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, why the current system leaves so many people behind, and what a clearer, fairer future could look like.
Expect honest, accessible conversations with some of the most interesting thinkers in the space, the kind that take you from "I don't really get this" to genuinely curious. No hype, no pressure, just money, made clear.
Whether you're brand new to these questions or already deep in them, you're welcome here.
Joining me today is Robin Seyr.
I practiced offline and I still got it wrong.
Welcome to Honest Money, Robin. I thank
you so much for having me. I love the
title, by the way, Honest Money. I think
that's the essence of what Bitcoin
actually is because it doesn't lie to you,
it doesn't manipulate. It's just Honest
Money. Yeah, I'm so proud of that name and
I deliberately wanted to name it in case I
started this thing and I didn't want to
continue doing it long term that I could
just pass it on to someone else. So, yeah,
I still don't know what the long term
trajectory of Honest Money is going to be,
but I've committed to 100 episodes, which
is what they say to do. I think less than
5% of podcasters make it to 100 episodes,
so that's kind of my goal and then I'll
reassess what's next. But you're obviously
a podcaster as well and you mentioned
offline you reached how many episodes now
you're in? About 800. So, like, I think
800 or around that number. But I think the
number that you mentioned, the 5%, is even
more extreme. Only 3% make it to three
episodes, so like 97% of all podcasts
started stop after the third episode and
then only 1% make it to episode 20. So,
like, if you're making 21 episodes, you're
already better than 99% of all podcasts.
The number is actually accelerating as
more and more people, like, start a
podcast and more and more people try it
out. There's so many podcasts that have
just, like, one episode because they've
never got to the second one or the third
one. And I think it's a little bit like
with Bitcoin also. Most people heard about
it. Like, most people that are aware of
finances, are aware of what's going on in
the world, heard about it. But how many
people actually did the work and read five
books about it, listened to three podcasts
and did kind of the deep dive? Maybe half
a percent. Maybe 0.1%. It's like a very
small group of people. And so if you've
done both of it, started a podcast and
actually understood Bitcoin to a certain
degree, you are in a very, very, very
small elite group of people. When I came
into Bitcoin and the Bitcoin media world
also, I thought this is a big space, but
actually not that many people. Like, after
one, two years doing a lot of podcasts,
you basically know, like, 98% of everyone.
And there's like a few new people always
coming and turning in, but it's a very
small community. And people assume,
especially those that listen to those
podcasts, assume that Bitcoin is this
gigantic industry with that many people.
It's not. It's like a very few select
people that kind of steer the whole
industry. It's maybe 1,000 or 10,000
people working in the focused Bitcoin
industry. If you go a little bit further
out, like in the crypto industry and like
get, do all the, like the further out,
like it's probably like 100,000 or more
people, or maybe two, 300,000. But it's
not that many people. I mean, at the
biggest Bitcoin conference last year, at
the height of the market, we were 45,000
people. That's not that many. It's like,
okay, maybe 50% couldn't make it. Maybe
it's like 100,000. It's not that many
people. And so if you are today, 2026,
getting Bitcoin and you understood
Bitcoin, it's such a small percentage of
the total world population that you can
count yourself into. It's very, very
select few. That is so true. That is so
true. And I'm beginning to realize that
the longer I spend in Bitcoin. But in
Australia, we've got about, I'd say, on
Twitter, at least about 2000 Bitcoiners,
like proper Bitcoiners, not crypto.
They're the ones who really care about,
you know, the mission. But yeah, I'd love
to know a little bit about your early days
of podcasting. Like, why did you start? I
think Bitcoin is a very important topic.
And there's a lot of like tactical reasons
why I started the podcast. I wanted to
have an outlet. I wanted to like have
someone to talk to about Bitcoin. This was
like the main reason for me to actually
start a podcast was to talk to all those
amazing Bitcoiners, like at Jeff Booth,
that I never had the chance to talk to.
And if you just write big people in
Bitcoin, like, hey, can I talk to you for
like half an hour? Like they wouldn't
respond to you. But I was like, maybe if I
start a podcast, maybe they accept my
invite and I can have them on a podcast.
And I just did that. And a lot of people
said no, but most people actually said
yes. And I just started the podcast and
Jeff Booth was my first like target guest
that I wanted to have. And just one month
after I started the podcast, he agreed to
be on my podcast. And I was like, wow,
like that's ridiculous fast. And so I
discovered that I actually like talking to
those Bitcoiners. And that's what I do to
this day. I have now 800 episodes and it's
more fun now than it was in the beginning.
You know, some things get boring over
time. You do it more often and it gets a
little bit more boring. But actually, I
think it's more enjoyable now because in
the beginning, I was worried about what
people might think about me. I was worried
about what I say. I was worried about so
many like hundreds of different small
things. Those worries after 800 episodes,
now being about three years or a little
bit over three years in the Bitcoin
industry, they're gone. Like all the
worries, I kind of like eliminated now.
And so I can now it feels like, oh, I can
just connect with new people and make new
friends or connect with old friends. And I
just get to talk to them. And for some
reason, people pay me for that. Like
that's the part I still don't get why this
is happening to me. But I just love doing
that. And I will do it the rest of my
life. If I stop earning money with it, I
will still do it. If I earn more money
with it, I'll still do the same thing
because it's just a lot of fun doing that.
And I think that's the magic. If you find
something that you actually love doing
that you would do without making money.
And I did it for a little over one year,
having the podcast and having a Twitter
channel without getting a single euro, a
single dollar for it. Only after one year
and like three, four months, I made the
first small salary. I mean, I was so
fucking happy for that moment. Like I
worked for one year and like two, three
months in the Bitcoin industry with
Twitter and podcasting. And then I got
from Twitter my first monetization. It was
about 300 euros. And it's not huge. Like
300 euros is like not something I can live
on or like a very small part of my rent.
It's nothing actually. And at that time I
was earning quite good as an IT account
manager in an IT security company. And so
I got that check and I was the happiest
I've ever been, even though it was not a
huge amount of money. That 300 euros felt
like 300,000 euros. It was such a great
amount because it was money that I just
earned myself with something I did without
anyone else involved. Like it's just like
my thing. And I think the only thing that
got that feeling even more when I started
selling my own product with MicroSeat,
with like a company I created. Like this
was also a huge feeling when I saw that I
can make just a website. I can create a
product and people just go on that
website, put the credit card in and buy
the product and I can ship it to them.
That just felt magical to me that like we
can just do that. I mean, MicroSeat is not
just me. It's we are three, four people
now. But yeah, this is it's a magical
moment. Making the thing that you love
doing all of a sudden gives you money.
It's like if you're playing and if you if
you like playing video games, all of a
sudden people give you money for playing
video games. If you like doing like
puzzles, all of a sudden people give you
money for making those puzzles. It's a
very magical feeling. And I'm here now
with 27 years old. And in many regards, I
feel like I retired. Not because I'm not
working. I'm working more than I've ever
worked. 60, 70, sometimes 80 hours, weeks.
Like every single hour that I'm awake, I
basically think about how I can push
MicroSeat forward. How can I push Bitcoin
forward? How can I push my podcast
forward? What can I do? But it doesn't
feel like that. And I think that's a
magical thing if you if you can find that
in your life. That is so reassuring. And I
love this for you. But I'm really curious.
Is this your first time running a
business? Like before obviously you got
into Bitcoin, I'm assuming an employee.
Yeah, I had. I had when I was, I think,
like 16 or 17 years old. I had with four
other friends. We wanted to make a video
game company. And we actually were quite
good in coding. And so we actually coded a
small video game. I think actually two or
three we did. And we got some users, but
we didn't have any clue about
monetization. We were 15, 16. We had no
clue about running a business, not even
like running a business and making it
profitable. But this was, I don't really
count it. But like technically I had a
small business back then. But yeah, I
didn't make any money. And it was more a
school project than an entrepreneurship.
So this is actually the first time I'm an
entrepreneur. And this is the first
venture that I got into. And it taught me
a lot about money. It taught me a lot
about Bitcoin and time preference. Bitcoin
already teaches you a lot about money and
time preference and what you can do. But
running your own business and being self
-reliant, the main difference is if you
have a job, you can count on the next
paycheck coming in. Because there are laws
that protect you. There are things that
kind of, you are not responsible for
getting in money. I mean, maybe you work
in sales and you're responsible for that.
But even then, even a salesman that
doesn't get in numbers has a base salary
that gets him somewhere every month,
depending on what exact job you have. And
in Austria, for example, you have terms
where even if you lose a job, you still
get paid for three months or four months
or five months. And then you get like
money from the government and all of that.
So you have a lot of insurances. You have
a lot of securities. Once you are just on
your own, that all can literally vanish
next month. I've had that happen multiple
times where I had a contract with a
company and they just didn't honor that.
They're like, yeah, we have like a three
-month contract, but it didn't work out as
we wanted. So we are closing it after one
month. And I'm like, do we have a
contract? Yeah, sue us. Like this is
happening to me. Like it's happened two
times already to me. And I'm like, okay,
okay, I get that. And so I learned the
hard way in my two and a half years of
entrepreneurship that you are the sole
responsibility of getting in money, of
managing that, and of pushing yourself
forward. Like nobody will do it for you.
If you are successful, a lot of people
will help you because you're successful.
But until you're successful, nobody helps
you because nobody has anything to gain
from connecting with you. If you're
successful and if you're doing good, now
all of a sudden everything comes into
great pieces. Companies reach out to me,
want to sponsor my podcast. Now nobody
reached out in the beginning. Now guests
reach out, they want to be on my podcast.
In the beginning I had to get all the
guests. So like now, like all those, once
you're successful, all of a sudden things
come to you. I don't know if this is an
appropriate thing to say, but when I heard
it, I was just laughing so loud. It was a
line that I heard about what success and
pregnancy have together.
I don't know where you're going to go with
this, but let's go there. Please judge me
as hard as possible for that. But I just
found it funny. And when I heard that
line, I don't even know from whom it
comes. But he said, pregnancy and success
is quite similar in the sense of once
you're successful, everyone comes to you
and congratulates you and says like,
great. Like I was always like, this is
amazing. Like you did it, like all of
those things, the same with pregnancy,
like you get pregnant, everyone is
congratulating you. It's like, wow,
amazing. You get the baby, all of those
things. But in both cases, nobody has a
clue how long, how long you have been
trying for that. But what do you have to
go through to get to that point of finding
a partner, of finding a right business, of
all of those things. And the line that got
me laughing was, once you get pregnant or
successful, everyone congratulates you,
but nobody knows how often you got fucked
before. I was waiting for the punchline,
but yeah. And that's how I look at that.
So I don't know, it has not that much to
do with Bitcoin, but I just found it
really interesting because you have to do
a lot of things to get where you are. And
I'm not successful by any means. Like I
just created myself a job. That's what I
really succeeded in the last two, two and
a half years. But a stable one, one that I
can rely on at least this month. Let's see
next month. And maybe it scales, maybe it
doesn't. So I have to still see if I can
make this like an actual business with a
lot of employees. I mean, now MicroSeat,
we have four people and all of that. So it
slowly scales already. But I'm very early
in my doings in the Bitcoin ecosystem, but
I have a very long way in front of me.
Yeah. And I want to talk about MicroSeat,
but I'm actually loving this conversation.
And I know there's a lot of people in the
Bitcoin space that are curious and
interested in doing a podcast. And I think
these sort of stories are just so
important to share because, like you said,
use the pregnancy analogy. But there's
also that tip of the iceberg. People see
the success, but they don't necessarily
always see the grind behind the scenes or
that bottom of the iceberg. But I'd love
to know, like, it's very comforting for me
to hear that things get easier with time.
And what were the early days like? What
was the hardest thing? Was it staying
consistent, staying motivated? I don't
necessarily know if it gets easier. The
problems get just less existential, but
they get bigger for some reason. Yeah. The
problem is, like, in the beginning, my
biggest struggle was, will I be able to
live from it? So, like, will I be able to
make my rent all of those? Like, this is
no longer a struggle of mine. A lot of
things have to go wrong for me to say, oh,
I have to find another job. I have to find
another business to actually make up to
actually afford my rent and all of those
things. This is no longer a struggle. But
it was a very real struggle just two
years, like maybe like one and a half
years ago. And now the struggle is, how do
I get the podcast from averaging 1,000 to
2,000 to maybe, no, from 1,000 to 5,000
views per episode to getting it to 10,000
to 50,000 views per episode? How can I get
into the next step, which is a lot harder?
Like, this is a lot, a way bigger problem
to solve. It's way easier to get a podcast
from a little bit to, from nothing to a
little bit. But it's very hard to get a
podcast from a little bit to elite level.
There's not many podcasts in general.
There's not many podcasts that average out
2,000, 3,000 views per episode. And
there's very little, very little podcasts
that have tens of thousands of views per
episode that never miss. This, this is
the, this is where kind of like, I want to
go next. And then of course, there's this
like next level of like having hundreds of
thousands of views. But that's, that's
very far away that I'm getting into. And I
think I have to kind of break out of the
Bitcoin ecosystem to do that. So I don't
even, I'm not even sure if I want that.
But the problems actually get harder and
they actually get bigger. And the
struggles is like, like the, the, the
sleepless nights, you're just sleepless
because of a different reason. It's, it's,
it's not a, it's a, that's just what I
wanted to add, at least for, for me. Maybe
people have another few in that, but
that's my experience that the problems
actually don't get easier. They get bigger
and harder, but they get less existential.
I can, I can make a living pretty
comfortably, but how do I get to the next
thing? Like, like, how can I make the next
steps to getting even, even better, if
that makes sense? Yeah, it absolutely
does. And it's a different kind of stress.
Like, obviously, if you are working for
someone else, there's different types of
stresses that come with that. And then
when you're depending on yourself and, you
know, with podcasts as well, like the free
market is very like honest. And you, you,
you immediately feel the consequences of
if you do something wrong, if, if you
haven't performed the best or you, I don't
know, there was some audio visual issue. I
don't know. Like, I'm just throwing
examples out there, but you almost like
have to deal with those consequences
immediately. There's no way to hide behind
things when you're working in a corporate
environment. I mean, there's usually a
team that helps absorb some of the, you
know, the wins and, and the losses when
you're on your own, you're kind of,
you're, you're the shock absorber. Yeah.
And the free market in content creation is
even more brutal than the, the remaining
of the free market. Because with content
creation, you see every single minute of
the day, how well your video is doing, how
well your channel is doing. The click
through it, the average futuration, when
people are dropping off, you put a video
out, all of a sudden you say something
after three minutes and everyone is like
dropping off the video and no longer
watching. Like that's real feedback.
That's real hard to swallow. Like people
talk about Bitcoin being, um, an ego test
and being humbling. Try grading content
that I, that, that's one of, one of the
most humbling experiences for people. And
people are, people go two directions. The
one direction is saying the world is
broken. The algorithm banned me. Like
they're all shitty. Like everyone is
against me. That's not a good place. Like
you are just trying to blame other people
for your own failures. And then there are
the people that take that feedback and say
like, oh yeah, um, after three minutes, it
was very boring what I talked. And I mean,
this episode might actually be a good
example because people might have clicked
because of a Bitcoin conversation. Now
we're talking about podcasting. So a lot
of people actually might like drop off and
say like, hey, like I didn't come for
that. Like I was, I'm here for honest
money. And now, uh, he's talking about
building a podcast and the struggles. Like
I didn't click for that and the, the, the
real market feedback we might get from
right this here, people clicking off and
we see it in average federation. We see it
in the attention graphs that they're like,
I'm not here for that conversation. But
there might be some people that say, oh,
that's so refreshing. Like we, we don't,
we, we, we never hear about that side of
podcasting in the Bitcoin media and that
side of, of, of the story. So I'm actually
like kind of liking it. And I, I love that
conversation. So it's like, well, so you
get real market feedback every single
minute, um, of, of the day. And this is
really powerful when you use it. But if
you take it serious and if you take it as
like an attack to you, which a lot of
people, I see a lot of people do that. Um,
yeah, the, it's, it's very humbling. One,
one more thing on the banning. A lot of
people say like, oh, um, I'm shadow
banned. Like YouTube doesn't like me. All
of those things. YouTube doesn't care
about you. Like I, I see that all the
time, but there are really radical views
on YouTube out there. Like very hardcore
conspiracy, uh, extremist radical views
out there. And they get hundreds of
thousands of views. Exactly. And you
think, because you talk about Bitcoin,
that this is the reason you only got 50
views. No, you got only 50 views because
your video sucked. And that's, I think, a
hard reality that a lot of people like
can't, can't really, uh, uh, swallow. So
that, that's kind of like what I've, I've
learned from, from, from the real market
feedback that you get from, from Bitcoin,
uh, from YouTube. I, I've certainly had
that experience, not on YouTube. But I
think for now, my YouTube is performing,
but the social media. So my background is
in marketing and I was always, you know,
behind these marketing teams with huge
budgets. And we had all these agencies
that specialize in various things with a
digital SEO, social media, advertising.
Um, and it's been a humbling experience
because it's very different to be, you
know, a marketing manager armed with a
team and a budget versus having no budget
and being on the tools. So that's been a
very humbling experience. And that was me
realizing just, okay, I'm running social
media. I'm doing everything I think I'm
doing right. And then like, it's not
performing and I know it's not the
algorithm. It's, it's me, like my
content's just not engaging. And, um, that
was, yeah, that was a moment, an honest
moment I had to, um, have with myself. But
the other thing you mentioned that I
absolutely love is, um, uh, with, with
starting a podcast for me, it was about
kind of, again, learning, um, doing
something that I love as a hobby. And
hopefully monetizing that and turning into
a business. But one thing I'm really
insecure about as a content creator is
there's all these like amazing people in
Bitcoin who are so talented. They're
coders. They're working on the protocol.
They are contributing so much more and
they're so much more knowledgeable. And
here I am. This is my little contribution
to the world of Bitcoin. I'm just a
podcaster, like, you know, and, and yeah,
like, I mean, there is a space for that,
but it's just seems like in the big scheme
of things. And so, yeah, not that. You
have, um, oh shit, how's it called?
Imposter syndrome. So like, um, this is
something I, I, I love talking about. I
usually don't get the, get the time to
talk about that on podcast because we
always talk about Bitcoin. Uh, but like,
uh, so thank you so much for, for giving
that space. Imposter syndrome is something
extremely real and having it just shows
you that you're pushing yourself out of
the comfort zone. So think about it the
other way. If you didn't have imposter
syndrome at all, it would mean that you
are not pushing hard enough. So you being
on stages that you think you don't belong,
you being in places where you think that's
too big for you is the very reason why you
should be there because there is growth. I
had imposter syndrome on many occasions in
my podcasting thing. The first big one was
for me when I had Michael Saylor on the
podcast because for whatever reason, he
followed me on Twitter. And, uh, then I
wrote him, Hey, I would love to have you
on the podcast. And he just replied with
yes. And I was like, how, why is he
choosing me? There's so many other
podcasters, Bitcoin podcasters that are
bigger that want, want him also on that he
doesn't reply to. And I'm like, how, how
did he choose me? Like, how did he come to
my podcast? I, I still don't know. Um, but
it's that imposter syndrome and it shows
you, you're pushing hard enough because he
obviously, um, uh, listens to podcasts
before he goes on there. He makes his
thoughts. So like, he saw something why he
came on. He didn't just randomly choose
it. Like he has, he has a lot of better
things to do than talk with me. He has a
lot of other things that he can, he can
get into. Then another thing was the first
time I was on stage, um, at Bitcoin
Amsterdam, like two years ago now, like
in, uh, uh, two and a half years already.
They put me on stage on the main stage and
in front of, I think 8,000 or 7,000 people
plus like 15,000 watching on a live
stream. And I've never been on any stage
before. Like the biggest stage I've been
on was my school class with like 25
people. And so going from like the school
class with 25 people talking about some
weird topic that the teacher made me do,
to talking about my favorite topic in
front of like 15,000 people. That was pure
imposter syndrome. I didn't think at all I
belong there. I think I thought everyone
else is like a hundred times smarter than
me and they should actually be there. And
so for me, imposter syndrome is just you
pushing yourself out there. And if you
don't have it, it's actually a bad sign.
So if you have imposter syndrome, it just
shows that you're pushing yourself on, on,
on something that, uh, you should be
pushing yourself onto. If that made any
sense. It absolutely did. And I'm so glad
we had this conversation because I feel
like it's a conversation I needed to have
and the thing I needed to hear. Um, but
I'm really curious to know, have you,
like, I remember on Twitter seeing this
story. I think Lawrence Lepard said that,
um, Peter Schiff said to him that he
doesn't belong on a stage or in a certain,
um, panel that he was in. Have you ever
experienced that in your journey that
someone actually said that you don't
belong or they tried to humble you,
whether it was even like a friend or
someone just trying to drag you down? It's
more subtle than that. Um, there's a lot
of people that still don't take serious
what I do because I'm a YouTuber, you
know, like. Uh, actually they are like
surprisingly, um, uh, supportive, uh, my
sister also like my, my, I am very blessed
with my social environment. Um, the, the,
the, the confidence I have is coming from
my social environment, from my granddad
that put me on a tractor when I was like
eight years old. And he just said like,
you'll, you'll do it somehow. And I'll did
it somehow with eight years old, old on a
tractor that could kill people. Um, uh,
it, it, it's just like, I got very early
on from my parents, from my granddad, from
my environment, a lot of positive feedback
and a lot of confidence. And so I have
that weird voice in my head that says,
whatever you want to do, I can do. It's a,
it's a weird feeling to have imposter
syndrome, the feeling that, uh, you're not
good enough, but at the same time, I'm
actually thinking that I can be the
biggest podcast in the world. I actually
could potentially achieve that level. I
don't know if I will ever do that. I don't
know if it's something, uh, I'll, I'll,
I'll, I'll actually, uh, achieve, but my
head is so delusional to say, yeah, you,
you could do that. Like you can drive the
track with eight years old. And, uh, so
you can also be the biggest podcast in the
world. What, why couldn't you? And so I
think, um, having that confidence is very
important. Um, but it's more like the, the
wider family circle that, uh, like when I,
when I tell them, like, I'm an, I'm a
YouTuber and an influencer. They're like,
ah, like this, it's this, it's this phase
in his life, you know, like people only
take, people want you to be smaller than
them. And to follow in their footsteps.
That's what people love. If, if, uh, if,
if you come to me and you say, Hey, I'm a
smaller podcaster and I want to learn from
you. Like, I feel amazing because
immediately I feel superior to you. And,
uh, you put yourself in that position and
you can learn from me. And so if, if
someone else pursues a different way and
is maybe more successful in that different
way than you, you get a little bit
anxiety, you, you get a little bit like
bad feeling. And that bad feeling comes
out usually in a, in a sense of why would
I do that? Why would I help you? Why would
I support you? Um, it's not a good thing
that humans have, but it, I feel like it
comes out sometimes. And the best humans
are the ones that cheer you on, even
though you are more successful in a
different path and still love you and
still support you. It's, it's very hard to
come by. You, I think you will lose a lot
of friends along the way. The, the, the,
the less mainstream you're going. If all
your friends are going mainstream, normal
job and doing their things and all of a
sudden you're blowing up on social media,
you're on stages and you're doing all
those things. Most likely you will lose a
lot of bad friends that you shouldn't have
in the beginning to begin with, but
hopefully you gain, uh, some good friends
along the way. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very lucky.
along the way. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very lucky.
Like I've, I've all of my friends from
primary school and high school, I'm still
friends with them. They obviously love and
support what I'm doing. So, um, yeah, like
it, it does, it is very important to have
like a strong support circle and, and my
parents, especially as well, similar to
your parents are very, very supportive. So
that means a lot. Um, but I want to know a
little bit now about the, the seed, um,
the mini seed, sorry, the. Micro seed.
What is it called? Micro seed. Yes. Micro
seed. Mini, mini seed would also be a good
name. Um, yeah, it's, uh. Small seed.
Trying to think of all these. Tiny seed,
micro seed, mini seed. Um, yeah. So like,
I can just briefly explain. I'll just
quickly get it off.
So it's one of those rare things. In
Bitcoin. That you can actually show off.
So I will, I will just do that. Um, so in
Bitcoin, if you do self custody, you have
to stamp your seed phrase to back them up.
So if you do self custody, some people
might not be familiar with self custody.
I'll just like quickly explain it a little
bit. Um, you have usually a signing
device, which is your hardware wallet. I
purposely call it signing device because
it's signing. It is signing transactions
wallet. You kind of think the Bitcoin is
in there, but the Bitcoin aren't in there.
You're just signing transactions to move
it in a different direction. And those,
this is a treasure that people know, a
cold card that people know, a ledger that
people know, any of the hardware wallets
that you have out there. There are better
ones that are worse ones. I personally,
uh, love the cold card. It's a great
device. But the most other ones are also
amazing. Uh, the beginning. Now those
devices can break. Those devices can go
wrong. And so you want to back up. So
you're not dependent on that one device
because with that device, uh, you can sign
a transaction. But what if the device no
longer works? So you want to actually back
up that device. And this works with 12 or
24 words. And those 12 or 24 words, you
should put on something durable. Please
don't put it on paper. Paper gets thrown
away. It gets wet. It gets burned. It gets
all the, all the weird things. And so you
want to put it on titanium, metal,
something that is durable, long lasting,
and maybe survives fire, maybe survives
water, maybe survives all those, uh,
things. And we try to make it as
convenient as possible. You can just buy
yourself a metal plate from Amazon and get
yourself like something to, to get your
seat frizz in and just like put your seat
frizz in there. Like, like, like that.
It's possible. Like you, you don't need
anything else and it's a very cheap
solution, but it's not convenient. And if
you do a lot, um, you, you, you lose some
security, you lose some convenience, you
lose a lot of time of doing that. And so,
especially if you do more than once, I, I,
I always recommend to investing one time,
a little bit of money in a device like the
micro seed. And what it is, is we have
those small, uh, washers. I'll just show
it to you right here. It's such a, such a
tiny washer. It's like, it's very, it's
very small. Um, it's, it's, it's, it's
smaller than my watch. So it's like
really, really, really small. And you just
put that washer, uh, in here. Um, you have
like a small thing. You can, uh, strangle
that on there and then you have a table on
top. And what you can do is have those
punches and literally just punch those
things in there. And when you punch those
things in there, which is, uh, a letter
or, um, a number or something like that,
uh, they are then on that washer. And so
you can get all your 24 words on that one
washer. Now this one washer, uh, right now
does not have any meaningful words on them
because you always use it when friends are
here and they are putting their names, uh,
on there and some weird numbers. Uh, but
you can maybe see it a little bit. Uh, I
don't know if the camera actually. No, I
can't. Oh, okay. Yep. Yeah. Okay. That's.
Yeah. It's, it's very small and very tiny.
Um, and it's the best way to store your
seed phrase because it's durable. It's on
titanium. And, uh, uh, you can hide it
anywhere. So you can hide it under a table
behind the fridge in a lamp, uh, like
wherever you want to hide it. If you have,
if you have a home, you probably have like
a hundred spots where you can potentially.
Yeah. Like an appliance, you can just
unscrew something and then put it in and
screw it back in and no one would know.
Exactly. Yeah. And like, even if someone
knows that you have a micro seed, like
there's like 200 different spots in your
home where you could potentially have it.
And like, it takes forever to find it. And
you can even scrutinize it further. You
could put, uh, you could put your words on
here and you just remember what is the
first word. And if they just see the plate
without the numbers and you don't put the
numbers on there, you could put the
numbers on there. But if you don't put the
numbers on there, then you, they have to
figure out, okay, this is 24 words, but
what sequence? 24 words, you can put in a
lot of different sequences. So they have
to find it. You can put some additional
security packed on that. So even if
someone finds it, they don't immediately
get it. That's why I personally don't
think it's a good idea to have those
plates where there's numbers on there.
Like number one, two, three, four, five,
because if someone sees that, they
immediately know your whole seed phrase.
They know it directly. They can make a
picture. They know it directly. And they
can get your Bitcoin within seconds, maybe
like 30 seconds. With that, you can put it
on there. You don't have to number it. And
then they're like, okay, there are 24
times 24 different possibilities. That's
not easy to crack. And so knowing they
don't have that many possibilities because
they are still in the sequence. But they
have a lot of different possibilities
basically to what kind of seed phrase is
it really. So that's kind of why I'm super
excited about it because it's, in my
opinion, the best security device for your
seed phrase. I haven't found anything
better than that because you have to put
it on titanium or some kind of metal. And
another advantage is you buy that thing
once and you only have to buy the washers
again. So in the washers, you can buy on
Amazon. You can buy in your hardware
store. It's not that expensive and you can
just like get it. You can also get it from
our store. But even you can go to the
hardware store next door. So we have on
our website in the FAQ how big those have
to be and what are the dimensions. You can
look that up directly. And then you can
just go ahead and secure your passphrase
forever. And you have basically just a one
-time expense and not every new seed
phrase you have to buy another plate for
like 50, 100. I see plates with like 150
bucks. I'm like just a piece of metal. Why
are you charging me 150 bucks for a piece
of metal? I want to pay one time like 200
bucks. And then I'm good to go for like
200, 300, 400. I don't know if this thing
ever breaks because I have it since I
think over a year now. And I have done a
lot of testing with that and it just like
works since forever. So I don't know. When
you say a washer, you're referring to
that. What are you referring to? The
actual little... I will show you. That's
the washer way to... Love this demo. It's
this thing right here. So that's called...
Okay. Yeah. So... Yeah. Okay. That's the
washer. I also didn't know that it's
called a washer because I'm not natively
English speaking. That's the small little
washer. And you can get it just from any
hardware store, from Amazon, like wherever
you want to get it. You can get it from
our store. Then you're 100% sure like it
fits and all of those things. But you can
get it literally from anywhere. We made it
a standard size. So some of the hardware
manufacturer always have some specialty in
there. So you have to buy theirs. We
purposely didn't do that because we want
to have a long-term good solution where
you have to buy it once. It's a horrible
business model for us. But you buy that
thing once and you never need to buy
anything else from us again ever. That
thing will last you a lifetime. And you
can even share it with friends because a
friend does not know what you stamped on
here. So you can just give that micro seed
to a friend. He gives it back to you in a
week. You give it to your mom. You give it
to your son. You give it to an uncle,
whoever you want to give it to. And you
buy one micro seed for the whole family.
Like you can even do meetups. And like
there is like one meetup where it's just
like people get it and like put it in
there. So it's almost like an open source
project because like you can get it once
and like you can share it. You can do it
and like it's just a one-time small fee
and that's it. Yeah. And have you done
like any product testing? Have you thrown
it in house fires to see how it lasts?
Yeah. We haven't tested the thing
actually, but we have tested the washer,
of course. That's the important thing.
Yeah, that's the important thing. I'm
almost sure that this micro seed thing
holds also in fires because it's just
metal. It's actually quite heavy. So it's
almost a dangerous, if someone comes to
your home and wants to steal your Bitcoin,
you could throw it at him. It's a self
-defense mechanism built into that, I
guess. But yeah, it's very durable. The
washers itself, they are titanium. So they
hold as good as titanium holds. You can
get them from our store, from Amazon, from
all of those things. And so they're
holding very good. And we have on the
store also, I forgot how we call it. It's
a new thing. We have a box where you can
put them in. It's kind of like a tube. And
you can put in the tube your washer or
your washers. You can also put multiple
washers in that tube. And then they are
like extremely, extremely secure because
the fire has to get through that tube,
that metal tube that is very thick. And
it's so strong. A car could be on that. A
metal plug, a house can collapse on it.
That thing will survive. The other
question is, will you find it if your
house collapses? So I still encourage
people not to have everything on one
place. Because it's like you have to find
it. Like it's a small thing, which is like
you always have to balance the convenience
and the security. Because not finding it
is like a very nice security feature. But
it's also like convenience. You have to
place it things. So yeah, I absolutely
love it. And it was one big milestone
where my first time that I'm actually co
-owner of a company that I promote myself,
which was a huge milestone just for me on
the podcast. Because it was not an easy
thing to get to, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's so amazing.
Like, yeah, you should be very proud of
yourself. I mean, that's what anyone can
kind of hope for starting a business in
media and then expanding it into other
things that add value back to the
community. What has the feedback been like
from your early customers? Oh, that's the
coolest thing, actually. Because it is, in
my opinion, and also from the earlier
customers, in their opinion, the best
device to back up the seat frazz. And a
lot of those customers, especially the
very early customers, they have searched
for something like that already forever.
They try to do it themselves on a small
washer. Like, we have not been the first
one to come up with the idea of putting
that seat frazz on a washer. We've just
the first one that made that product, that
made that thing actually viable. It's not
that easy to machine. It's not that easy
to produce. We've gone for multiple
iterations. This is kind of the first
actual commercial version here. But we
have gone for multiple iterations to make
it perfect. And now we have already
launched, I think, the third or fourth
version soon in July of that very product.
So it's like keeps on building. But the
early customers love it because it's
exactly what they were searching for. It's
the tiniest possible seat frazz storage.
And it's one-time purchase and it lasts a
lifetime. It's like that's, in my opinion,
the killer argument for it because all the
other ones are costing also $100, $150.
And you have to keep on buying the thing.
If you have a new seat frazz or someone
makes a picture of it. Like if you, I
don't know, like you let your seat frazz
out there and other people were in your
home, you don't know. Maybe they made a
picture of it. Then you have to change it.
And so changing it will cost you 150
euros. And with that, changing it costs
you like 5 euros for like a titanium
washer or like maybe 2 euros, whatever the
cost for the titanium washer is at that
time. So the cost just drops 100x, which
is a thing. This is the game changer for
like self-custody backing up your seat
frazz. So I think that's the main feedback
we get. We absolutely love it. People show
it off. I have been at two conferences
where we haven't bought a booth where I
just was as a speaker there. And a guy
came up to me and said like, hey, there's
a guy that's selling micro seat. And I'm
like, that's amazing. There's a guy that
had a micro seat with him and showed it to
people because he loved it so much. We
didn't even know that guy. He just
purchased a micro seat and referred people
to our website. And that's it. And I was
like, wow, that's really cool that someone
just does that. And we also have been in
Bitcoin Mina. There was an open source
booth and a guy just featured us there. We
didn't ask him to do that. He just loved
the product. And he was like, here, I want
to show people what's possible. And if
people come by, I'll refer them to the
website. And I'm like, that's amazing that
people love the product so much that they
are promoting it without us even being in
contact with them. They don't have any
incentive. So I think we found product
market fit. It's not a product or
something that will make us extremely rich
or will blow up at any time because it
doesn't scale as good. But I think it's a
very important product to have in the
marketplace. And I think it's a very
important tool in the toolkit for Bitcoin
in self-custody. And I'm so happy that I
can provide that for people and build that
further for everyone in the Bitcoin
community. Yeah. So what is the sale
community. Yeah. So what is the sale
model? Are you selling wholesale to other
retailers or are you selling direct? Or
both? We are selling everything direct. We
might sell wholesale in the future. But
right now, it's like, I think it's
everything is, like almost everything is
direct. It's like 95% direct. So it's just
our website that sells. Yeah. And can you
teach me a little bit about metals?
Because I thought typically these plates
are like steel. What's the difference
between steel and titanium in terms of
durability? I personally like titanium the
most. We also have stainless steel. So on
our website, you can purchase whatever you
like best, stainless steel or titanium.
Titanium is a little bit better in terms
of durability. And being able to put those
things in there. But it's also a little
bit more expensive. So I think stainless
steel is good enough. In my humble
opinion, stainless steel is definitely
good enough. And you can, especially if
you have a multi-signature variant where
if that one option doesn't, if you have
like a multi-signature, let's say with
three keys, and all those three keys are
backed up with three backups, you have
basically six keys and you only need two
of those six keys to work. That's pretty
good security. If you have like just an
example for that kind of a setup.
So with stainless steel or titanium, it's
more of like the 10% extra that you get
with titanium. But I'm not a chemist or
like a chemist that could explain the
exact durability and like how it gets
together with the atoms and like the
combinations and stuff like that. I'm not
that deep into metals, even though I'm
selling a lot of metals these days with
micro seed. But the titanium, from what I
understand, is a little bit better, a
little bit more expensive. But I'm fine
with stainless steel. It's a great thing.
And with us, you can do like literally
everything. We even have nylon. That might
be interesting. We sell nylon washers. And
for some people would go now say like, why
the heck nylon? And there was a few people
that get it immediately when I say nylon
washers. Because those nylon washers, you
can stamp the seed phrase on there and you
don't see it. And the scanners at the
airport also don't see it. So you could
potentially make a nylon washer, put that
thing somewhere here on your shirt. The
scanners don't detect it. It's not metal.
So nobody will see it. And the scanners
also don't have it. And then after you
land in your target country, you can just
take them, paint with some pen on there.
And then you see it. And then you can put
it on stainless steel or titanium. So
nylon is actually an amazing way of
getting through your Bitcoin through an
airport security. Because they can't
detect that thing. And you don't even see
it. So you have to look that close and
then put a pen on it that you even see
that there's words on there. And it's like
such a small thing. And because we made it
universal, you can just make whatever you
want. You can 3D print something, put it
in here and stamp with our punches,
whatever you want on there. And so this is
the most creative, like it lets you be the
most creative. That tool lets you be the
most creative you can ever be in backing
up this feed phrase. One thing we're also
starting is special characters. And now
there are no special characters in private
keys or there are no special characters in
any of the seed phrases. But special
characters are really cool for backing up
your master password, for example. A lot
of people use password managers. And
there's one master password that you kind
of have to remember. You know, write it
down. Where do you write it down? If you
write it down in some Google Docs or
somewhere online, it gets exposed. And
then it like the password manager kind of
lost its role as a password manager. If
you write it down on a piece of paper, you
have the same problem as you have with
writing your Bitcoin seed phrase down on a
piece of paper. And so our solution also
allows for writing your master password
down on the titanium. And you can have it
on your keychain and you always have it.
And you just like look at it and like you
type it in and that's it. I mean, there
are also YubiKeys. There are also like
other solutions that kind of go into the
same direction. But if you want to be the
most secure, the most offline with
titanium, you can even do that kind of
security with your master password. With
any password you want really. Because you
have special characters and you can just
put them on your washer and you can make a
washer for your Bitcoin password, a washer
for a master password, a washer for
something important that you want to store
on the titanium, whatever you want. I even
heard people doing, they put like 12 words
on there for the seed phrase and put some
Bitcoin on there and gift it to people.
Because this is then like a physical coin
where there's, let's say, 100 euros of
Bitcoin on there with those 12 words and
you can gift it to someone. And it's like
giving someone a Bitcoin coin.
So that's another maybe customer feedback
we got is the creative use cases we
already heard with that thing is really
cool. You can even with leather and 3D
printing, there are no limits to your
creativity. The one scenario that was
going in my head when you mentioned the
nylon, the nylon washers is like having
earrings and having like a two of three
multi-sig and you're just crossing the
border somewhere. You're like, that's just
what came to my mind. That's fun. Yeah.
Yeah. Like you have like three, two out of
three multi-sig and you have like one
here, one here and like one here or
something. Yeah. Get your nail polish out.
Get the. Oh, I love it. I'm conscious of
time. I just wanted to also circle back a
little bit to the podcasting. So obviously
you've interviewed a lot of guests. Do you
still feel like you are learning new
things or you're kind of repeating the
same old things about Bitcoin?
I'm still learning new things, but it's
not as much as in the beginning. That's
for sure. But I think there's great value
in having the same people with the same
topics on over and over again. And the
reason is because people want to confirm
their bias. And there's a really good
reason for that because most Bitcoiners
out there, they have mostly no other
Bitcoiner friends. They might have like
one or two other ones, but they are
usually quite alone in their Bitcoin
conviction. Their environment, the social
environment, the parents, the daughters,
the sons, they are usually not on board.
And so if you usually don't have your
people on board, you can lose your
conviction. You can lose a little bit of
like, oh, why am I so bullish on Bitcoin?
And so having podcasts, having an outlet,
having people confirming your bias over
and over and over again kind of can keep
you sane in a very insane world. Because
you hear all those people and you hear
them kind of confirming what you already
know. But at the same time, I'm
researching a lot and I'm trying very hard
to keep on getting new topics in it. I'm
trying to get a better thinker and get a
better speaker myself to deliver more
value to my audience and deliver more
value as a speaker, as a guest, as a host,
whatever role I'm doing. To have those
amazing conversations to actually educate
people on more topics. For example, I
didn't see the value of an emergency fund
up until December. Now I see the value of
an emergency fund and why people should
have it, even if they're very convicted on
Bitcoin. So I'm still learning. I'm still
on my way. But it's not as drastic as it
was in the beginning. But it's still quite
significant because you have to keep on
getting better. I feel like as a content
creator, as an educator, you kind of have
to, you have the obligation to be the best
version of yourself because other people
rely on that. They are tuning in. I had
only one single, so I just analyzed my
videos literally today. And I had in 2025,
10% of my videos going under 1,000 views.
So 10% of my videos went under 1,000 views
and 90% were above them, which was quite
good. But I changed a lot of things and I
tried really hard to get that floor up.
And in 2026, so far, I only had one video
that was under 1,000 views, which is about
1.4% or something like that of all my
videos. So the percentage dropped
significantly. And this is in the bear
market. Last year, we had a bull market.
And so if you look at that number and you
have at least 1,000 people per episode
watching you, I feel like you have an
obligation and some kind of calling that
you get better and you learn more. That's
why I'm constantly consuming content,
reading content, researching, writing, and
doing things. And so that's just my
attempt to get better. But overall,
there's a lot of value in repeating the
basics, repeating why we love Bitcoin, why
we do all those things and kind of push
that forward. Because there's always new
people watching and the old people need to
stay convicted because it's not that easy.
It's like with podcasting. It's very easy
to stop. It's very hard to keep on going.
Well, this is my first bear market. And I
must admit, I am feeling a little bit
bearish. I don't know if that is typical
for a bear market. Or is that like a first
bear market mentality? Or is this just the
general sentiment? This bear market in
particular, I don't know. Yeah, it's
interesting. We talked about it before.
But it's such a – people have the tendency
of loving Bitcoin when it goes up and
hating Bitcoin when it goes down. I don't
hate it. But you have like this feeling of
like – What if I'm wrong? What if I'm
wrong? Am I really – like it's very hard
to question yourself if your asset just
went up like 200% in the last few months.
Then it's like, yeah, you're on a ride,
like everything goes up, like everything
is amazing. But if we're going down, your
conviction gets tested. And this is
actually the point where most people get
out. It's the point where most people
don't stay. And it's a weird thing because
if you really think about it, you
understand Bitcoin. You understand that
Bitcoin just got better the last six,
seven, eight months. There are more people
now that actually understand Bitcoin and
are convicted about Bitcoin than there
were seven months ago. And so if that is
true and Bitcoin got better and Bitcoin
advanced and the Bitcoin ecosystem is more
mature, then why would you sell if there's
a 50% discount? It's only with assets. I
made that example previously already. If
you have a toaster oven that you really
love, that is amazing, that you love the
quality of, and the toaster oven just got
a little bit better, it added a new
feature, the quality is even better, and
the price drops by 50%, why wouldn't you
buy it? It just doesn't make sense for me.
So if you're fearful of bear markets or
you're still not 100% sure where this
goes, take it as an opportunity to learn
more, to study harder and go even further
into the Bitcoin rabbit hole because this
is the only way you kind of survive.
There's a lot of tourists in Bitcoin.
There are a lot of tourists that come and
go. They come in the bull market, they go
in the bear market, and they don't come
back for like five years, and then they
have to buy back for a very high price.
And those tourists, they don't make a lot
of money. They actually lose a lot of
money. And so don't be a tourist, be
someone that hodls, that goes through the
bull and bear bear, that takes advantage,
that gets a little bit more of a cash
buffer in the bull market to be deployed
in the bear market. So you buy the dip on
a weighted average a little bit more than
the other people. And with that, you will
benefit a lot more from this bull and bear
market sentiment. So don't be afraid. It's
an easy time to lose your conviction, to
be a little bit bearish, to feel like
everything is ending. But it was always
like that the last 16 years. And if you
truly understand what Bitcoin is, you come
back to the belief of, okay, it's just a
market correction. It's very normal for
Bitcoin to be so volatile, actually.
Because if you think about it, how
revolutionary and how huge is what Bitcoin
is trying to do? No asset has ever done
that before. And what we essentially do is
we're trying to figure out what is the
price of this asset. And this asset has a
very stable price discovery, which is 20%
to 30% per year, which just goes up like
that. But because people are very
emotional with assets, very emotional with
investing, the price discovery doesn't go
up a little bit like 20%, 30% per year. It
goes up like 100%, 200%, then it goes
down, it goes up. Like it has that wave in
it. But under that wave is like a very
strong signal. I mean, the power law
people tell you about that very strong,
normal, linear growth of what Bitcoin
actually has. But in the price actually
goes up and down, up and down, up and
down. It's very emotional, but it's
normal. It's just the price that you have
to pay for being an early adopter. Love
that very much. Thank you for sharing
that. And obviously, I will share all your
website, your podcast in the show notes.
But is there anything you'd want to share
with my audience? If you haven't gotten
self-custody, try it out. I think self
-custody is very important. You don't have
to get a micro-seed. Just get your seed
phase on something durable. Get a signing
device and tinker around with self
-custody. I think that's my main message
because you probably already got Bitcoin
if you listen to that. If you don't, get
Bitcoin first, obviously. But most people
still don't have self-custody. It's a very
important topic. I agree. I second that.
All right. Thank you so much for your
time, Robin. Thank you so much for having me on