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How to Humanist asks life’s questions big and small with the help of brilliant humans along the way.
ANNOUNCER: If you're listening to this podcast, you probably care about science, bodily autonomy, and treating people with empathy. You probably believe you can live a good, meaningful life without religion. The good news is you're not alone. How to Humanist is a program of the American Humanist Association, a nonprofit that defends the separation of church and state, protects freedom of belief, and advocates for policies grounded in reason and human dignity.
We show up in the courtroom to protect the separation of church and state. We advocate in workplaces and schools to defend our freedom of belief. We work on Capitol Hill to shape the kind of country our kids inherit, and we build a community of people who share your values. But it only happens with your support.
If this podcast resonates with you, take the next step. Go to americanhumanist.org/join to learn more about our work and to become a member. Whether it's five dollars or fifty, you'll help fund the legal fights, the advocacy, and the community that makes a more humanist world possible. Join us at americanhumanist.org/join.
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SHAY: Welcome to How to Humanist. I'm Shay Leonia, your host. Happy freaking Pride Month, everyone. Oh my goodness, I cannot believe the guest that we have for you today. If you don't already know about who he is, it is time you remedy that.
Cain Culto. Holy shit. Cain Culto has joined me to kick off Pride Month on the podcast. He is a former worship pastor turned queer renegade, has established himself as a peerless artist blending left field pop and hip hop with global influences. Raised in a Colombian-Nicaraguan household, he grew up between Florida and Kentucky absorbing salsa, bluegrass, and evangelical culture. After breaking with the church, he emerged as a fearless DIY maverick, crafting provocative music and visuals that challenge faith, politics, and capitalism, fusing protest, satire, and undeniable — shit, the bio — that's the second time that's happened to me where the bio just runs out of characters. I'm so sorry, Cain. Well, people are gonna get to know you through the music anyway, so that's the most important part.
What I will say is my love language these days is just putting people on to Cain's music. In this conversation you'll hear me say I don't claim to call him a humanist. However, his ideologies align so well with humanism that it just made perfect sense for me to have him on the podcast. And I was so excited because Court, my supervisor — hi, Court, I know you're listening — Court is always very grounded and even-keeled, except for whenever they have to roll out the jade roller. But when I tell you — they had a meeting with me and I was just giving them the random updates, and I was like, yeah, you know, Pride Month, we're gonna do this and that and the third. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna start off the month with Cain Culto as the podcast guest. And they did a double take so quick. They turned beet red. They were like, wait, wh- Cain Culto! Oh my God. I've never seen Court so animated in my life. It was awesome.
So that tends to be the reaction of everyone who has ever heard of Cain, because he is just — oh my gosh. All right, well, enough talking. Let's enjoy this interview.
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SHAY: Oh my God, you're here. I'm not even — I can't even look at you yet. Wait.
CAIN: Hi, Shay.
SHAY: Hi. Oh my gosh.
CAIN: Oh my God, I'm so happy to do this.
SHAY: How am I gonna make it through this interview?
CAIN: I love your nails. Oh my God.
SHAY: Oh, thank you. I did a little like pop art action.
CAIN: Lovely.
SHAY: Oh my God. I love it. And you're so nice. Oh my gosh. Okay. How am I gonna do this right now? I'm so happy to do this. Thanks for reaching out.
CAIN: Thank you for saying yes. I'm like, get it together. Okay. Hi. Are you used to this happening yet? Like this kind of reaction? Has it hit you yet that people react this way?
SHAY: It's been crazy. I mean, when I — yeah, I'm always so surprised, you know? Because things go viral and move online, and comments feel a certain way, but then to actually experience someone's energy in person and just their excitement, their belief in me — it makes me really emotional. Yeah. So when I've been playing live shows, it's been so fun. And I guess I didn't realize how much my art was connecting with people in such an honest, real way. Even my managers were kind of surprised by it. They were like, yeah, we've seen bigger acts, but your music, even though maybe it's not reaching the numbers of other acts we have, it's really speaking to your base in a way that they feel really connected to you. And it made me so emotional to realize that. Yeah, it's been so special.
SHAY: I'm mad that they were surprised. I'm literally holding back tears right now because —
CAIN: Aw, oh my gosh.
SHAY: I'm a musician as well.
CAIN: Oh, cool.
SHAY: And I've been doing this for years, like so much of my progress I have stunted for myself because I was like, I don't have the resources, I'm not gonna do it right now. Or I would put some dusty, crusty man in front of whatever I wanted to do, and I would listen to them and then let the world fall apart. And I would just not pursue what I wanted to do. Fortunately, I ended up building this wonderful, beautiful network around me that still believed in me throughout, but I would always tell myself, ugh, it's too late, it's too late.
And then here comes you — and feel free to tell me if I should edit this part out — but I see you making your announcements at Sprouts and restocking the shelves at Sprouts on TikTok. And mind you, my first impression of you was KFC Santeria. This song that I have never heard the likes of in my life. And I consider myself to be so eclectic, and I've never heard anything that sounds like this before. And you're working at Sprouts. And I'm like, oh my gosh, he is creating visuals all from scratch, doing everything that he can with what he has, and he's making it happen. And now look at you. You are like a magazine centerfold's wildest dream because you just have this vision that every aspect of your music has. It's like I haven't seen something so start to finish since Michael Jackson.
CAIN: Oh, my God. You are so sweet, Shay. Thank you so much. Like what you were saying earlier of, oh, it's too late for me, the self-doubt — I think every artist has to confront that in their work. And for me, I had to really believe that I can constantly reinvent and start over.
So I had a whole era of my artistic journey where I had built up a sort of career that was gonna be the path for me — in the church as a worship pastor, worship leader, in a band that was beginning to talk with major labels. Like, that was gonna be my path, and then it all just crumbled. That's when I moved out to LA and started over, and I was like, well, I don't have that income anymore. And then I'm like, I know I could just get a different job, go into marketing or something, but music is my path, and I wanna devote myself to that. So in the meantime, you humble yourself, do whatever. I'm scrappy. So it's like, job at Sprouts, you know? And it was actually a really special time.
What was funny was one time at Sprouts someone recognized me from my Christian band, and they're like, oh my gosh, were you in that Christian band? And I was like, yeah. And it kind of hurt. Like, they saw me as this successful musician, and then I had to start over. But it put things into perspective, and I had to really confront like, wait, why am I doing this? It's for the love of the art. And I was like, you know, even if I am working at Sprouts my whole life — which I loved, I made so many friends in that era of my life, and it was such a grounding time — I think it actually set me up to move at the pace that I'm moving now, because it was a time of planning.
Even while I was working there, it was always about checking in for a couple hours, and then my mental space was free to fully devote to creating the visuals of KFC and stuff like that.
But yeah, I think so many artists, and a lot of the artists that I look up to, have this thing of like waiting to find the right team, to sign the right deal, to make the right pitch deck. And I think I wasted at least two or three years with that mindset until something shifted. I'm like, what am I waiting for? No one's gonna come save me. No one's gonna come make me a pop star. It's like I just have to work my ass off. And it's been fulfilling. It is exhausting this year. These last two years have been just so much labor and so much on my shoulders, and now I'm in the phase of learning how to expand into empowering a team. Like, it can't actually just be me. I need to empower other people on my team, and that's been a whole other learning curve.
But yeah, this has been the journey. I love that you've been witnessing it since Sprouts. It's so good.
SHAY: I am so happy I've been witnessing it. I put my sister onto you because my sister's a Gen X-er, and she loves to be up on the music that I'm loving. And she was so excited that you're coming on the podcast.
CAIN: Oh, yay.
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[SHAY interjects: Obviously I was gonna give my sister Seren a chance to share her love, our shared love, of Cain Culto's music. So here's what she had to say.]
SEREN: When I watch Cain performing, it's like I'm watching Prince. He gives me that kind of a vibe. Just so incredibly, outrageously talented and creative and stylish. The kind of talent that nobody else can touch, where it's just so different and so exciting to watch. The way he presents himself is just so different. I love it. It's like he's a piece of art on two feet, and his music backs that up. I've never heard anything like it. He's just awesome and incredible, and I can't wait to see what he comes out with next.
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SHAY: So I have to ask you, because you have such a fascinating religious background that we're definitely gonna get into — are you familiar at all with humanism and why I possibly would have wanted to bring you onto this podcast?
CAIN: Yeah, I mean, I've heard of humanism as an ideology. I didn't know that it was such an organized movement in the way that it seems like you all have. So yeah, once you reached out I quickly was like, wait, let me look into this. And I was like, ideologically, that's my vibe. And I was like, I'd love to learn more. But yeah, it seems like you guys are doing a lot of the things that to me are really valuable about organized religion — pouring back into community, community work, organizing. That's what religion offers a lot of people: a sense of purpose, a sense of, well, we're all here in this world, how do we make it a little more bearable? To me that is what's magic about religion and what it provides people. And then all the other bullshit about it can be also extremely harmful. So it's interesting to see what you guys have been doing. That's dope.
SHAY: Yeah, because I saw several statements that you made about your belief system being in people, in us being kind to one another. And I was just like, ooh, that's humanist as fuck. I'm not gonna go out and say that somebody is a humanist, but things that you say can be deeply humanist. And so I was just like, oh, gotta bring him on. I would love for you to share — the Santeria part had me intrigued, and then learning that you were a worship leader. What's the difference between a youth pastor and a worship leader?
CAIN: I was a worship leader employed at a church, and then working within the local — there were a lot of house church movements, and I was really plugged into the South Florida church scene, kind of as a worship leader that would play at different communities. But then I did have my home base church. And then I was also in university at the time, so I was the young adults' worship night organizer. And so weekly we would have live music sets, and I would be putting that all together, and sometimes I would preach too. But really just trying to serve the student body through music and art specifically was how I approached it. But yeah, it was church community type stuff.
SHAY: Were you closeted at the time?
CAIN: Yeah. I mean, I didn't always open up to everyone. But yeah, especially towards the end of my time I was a lot more vocal. And at the time I was really ideologically broken. I was conservative. I was fundamentalist. And I hold a lot of guilt for the things that people came to me as a leader for, and I was guiding them — to the best of my abilities but in the wrong direction, because I myself was repressing. I held a lot of shame towards my own sexuality.
So I was part of kind of like the ex-gay movement, or in the church spaces we called it, you were same-sex attracted. And it was very much like, I struggle with these feelings, but they are not my identity. They're not who I am. Yeah, it was really — clearly it led to my mental break. So it did not work for me.
I'm encouraged sometimes because I see friends, people that were with me at that time, they made their way out too. And that makes me feel happy. But yeah, I was totally going in the wrong direction, really spewing harmful things. And I think that's what's led me to now have to be so radically honest about my new beliefs, because there's guilt that I hold and there's a sadness of like, yeah, I caused real harm. I did.
SHAY: Mm.
CAIN: And so this is like a way for me to kind of restore that.
SHAY: Well, I wanna let you know, you already know that you're not alone there. But I wanna connect you with Luke Wilson. We had him on not once but twice, and he edited a compilation of people's stories called Shame, Sex, Attraction. And he's working on his anthology right now looking for more stories like yours.
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[SHAY interjects: Okay, this might be somewhat of a tangent, but I think it's important to point out. As I learn more and do better, especially in these recent years, I'm learning that I have a tendency to offer help where it hasn't been asked. And you might be thinking like, oh well, we're humanists, not everybody's gonna ask for help, we're gonna have to show up and help. Yes, but there's a big but there. When people haven't asked for help, you're assuming the kind of help that they would even want if they were to ask for help.
In this moment, Cain is sharing this very vulnerable thing, and instantly I think, oh my gosh, well at AHA we are friends with Luke Wilson, who is amazing. But that's not what Cain was asking for. I mean, yes, Luke specializes in the harm of these religious institutions and conversion therapy and all the things related to what he was saying, but that was not the appropriate time for me to jump in and say, oh, I'm gonna connect you guys. For all I know, the help or even the unspoken help that Cain might have been seeking was just for somebody to hear his story.
And that's something I'm learning also from talking to my nieces — sometimes they just want you to be a really good listener, and that doesn't change as we get older. So I just wanted to share that with you all. I feel like a lot of people might also be in my shoes, where they think that offering help where it hasn't been asked is automatically always helpful. And I just wanna let you know that's not the case. So let's try to be more present, and I will do a much better job of that in future conversations.]
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CAIN: I think because in those spaces you're — I was taught so much to not trust my intuition and to kind of superimpose the belief system that I'd been handed through scriptures and these very rigid frameworks — like, that is my reality, not my lived experience, not listening to my body, not listening to my mind.
Yeah, that really severs a person. It makes them fracture and split off in so many ways. And you become — I had so much cognitive dissonance. I didn't realize how scary it could get and how broken someone can get from that.
It is important to tell those stories, because I think that's what helped me begin to trust myself little by little. Because you meet people, and I remember meeting so many friends — new acquaintances at the time — and their energy just felt right. I felt like there was something healthy and right here. But then they were saying like, well, yeah, I accept my gay friends, and the way I see God or my belief system has space for all of that. And I remember being so closed off and being like, well, no, that's sin. You know, this is broken, and this is something that God and Jesus has to restore in the world.
And so I remember having a couple of interactions where I was so shut off and even offended just by their openness and kindness. It's so sad to think about. But if I look back in hindsight, those moments — even though I wasn't ready to embrace that and open myself up to their energy — it did impact me, and I couldn't shake it. Because something about them felt right. They felt open. They felt good. They felt really healthy.
So yeah, those were the little moments. Just hearing people's stories, experiencing their presence. You can be told to believe things, but once you feel love and you feel goodness, you're like, well, this is what it's about.
SHAY: I've never heard it put that way, but that's so true. Like, that unencumbered love — it's so overwhelming and can be offensive to somebody that's trying so desperately to keep a guard up.
CAIN: Totally.
SHAY: Because it will break down your guard to be approached with that.
CAIN: Well, that's what it is. It's like, someone who is open forces you to confront all the places that you are not. An open heart confronts the things that you haven't dealt with. And when you see someone step into their power and their confidence, sometimes people are — you know, it's offensive, because a part of them longs for that but is too hard to admit, or the journey to get there seems too wide.
So I understand it. And I think that's why I do troll online, and I get hate comments of course. But it doesn't ever really — I think because of my journey and who I have been in different seasons of my life, and then even in the journey to becoming this new version of myself, facing moments of real pushback and backlash and rejection from community and from important voices — I know hate. I know what it feels like. And you can't internalize it. It's what people are carrying, and it doesn't actually have to impact your knowledge of self.
But it requires something that I didn't have — a deeper belief and groundedness in who I am. Not needing other people to affirm that. Not even needing people to understand it. It's okay to be misunderstood because I know who I intend to be in the world. And I know when people meet me that they feel that, and regardless of what people wanna project upon me, all I can do is just stay true to myself.
SHAY: Did you find that your music was able to follow suit with that once you reached that place? Because the music that you're coming out with now is so deeply — like, every single song that you put out now can be an anthem. But then I go back to a song like Lotus Soul and I'm like, ooh, that's another crevice. That's another itch that you scratch too. And you're just capable of casting such a wide net for every color in the spectrum that a human emotion can need. And I'm just wondering if you always had that, or if it was something that you needed to do some work to get to.
CAIN: Thank you, Shay. The deep cuts, so you've been listening to the music.
SHAY: I've been a fan since Sprouts.
CAIN: That's so sick. Thank you, babe. I don't know. It's funny that a lot of what has unlocked opportunities for me this year has been with a song that I think people would have never expected me to be making — such loud, abrasive, even angry at times, but confident music. There's a rebellion in it. And I think I have always been rebellious, but it's always been cheeky. Like, I call it mischievous. Cheeky and chibi.
SHAY: Which by the way, you have my girl Baethoven in your latest video.
CAIN: Well, I love her. She's the best.
SHAY: Isn't she? She's so cool.
CAIN: Yes. Yeah. We've been staying in contact and she's another person who literally just does whatever the fuck she wants. I think that's what we were laughing with her about — when we were casting people for the Bim Bam Bam music video, we were looking at her page and we were like, I feel like she just does whatever she wants. Like, she'll be at a wedding one day playing the fiddle, then she's twerking with people, then she's at a wrestling mat. She's just the coolest person ever.
SHAY: She absolutely is. Can confirm.
CAIN: Yeah. I think especially with my record, I wanted this album to really allow me to establish myself as someone who wants to, in their career, not be boxed in. For me it's about the full range of what it means to be a human. And sometimes I can hone in on something and stay in that vibe for a little bit. I intend to probably for future records do different things — maybe I'll have an acoustic, softer, more ballad album, or an exclusively rap album. That's all part of me, but I wanted my first statement, this album that'll be out this year, to prepare people — because this is my first album — to prepare people to expect surprises from me. To know that Cain Culto as a project, as a musician, isn't just one thing. There's a lot of room for me to play.
So I just wanted to establish that with listeners so they're prepped for that. But yeah, my older stuff — I think you can hear it on the Ordination EPs — I was really in just a fragile place in my life. So fragile. And I still hadn't stepped into understanding who I was going to become. I just knew who I was wasn't gonna be me anymore. So it was more of deconstructing and tearing apart the identity that I had built before. And you hear that. Like I'm so fragile in that music. Even in my vocal performance, there's a brokenness. And my co-producer Bala Mandala definitely helped me in that season and created a safe space for me to feel that, even though these were things that I was actively processing.
Some lyrics were really scary for me to say even though now I'm like, they're so tame. But that felt like me really breaking away from an old mindset.
Yeah, so I don't know. I'm just authentic to wherever I am. And right now I'm in a season of radical confidence, just stepping out and being seen and owning the loudness of who I wanna be and the freedom that I felt like I was always so afraid to or always tempered myself to fully express. I'm like, no, I'm just gonna fully surrender to that in this record.
SHAY: And talk about being seen. I saw Joy-Ann Reid repost you like —
CAIN: Today.
SHAY: Oh.
CAIN: I know. Yes. Yes. So yeah, I saw that today and I was like, oh my gosh. Just, ugh, you've got legendary news reporters posting your stuff.
SHAY: It means a lot.
CAIN: It means a lot because I feel like my work is resonating with people that I respect so deeply. And so to me that means okay, my core message and my core heart is coming through, because these are the people that I feel like I'm a part of, and for them to see that within me is so affirming.
SHAY: Yeah. Yeah. You were talking about this background that you had in this religiosity — you're first generation, right?
CAIN: Yeah, born here in the States.
SHAY: So was it your family that was deeply religious, or did you find this on your own?
CAIN: Yeah, my family was for sure. My grandparents were Catholics that then converted to Protestants. My grandma was almost a nun — she almost went in a full different path. I think it was right before they do confirmation to be part of the convent. The story is that all the elder nuns were like, oh, she has what it takes to be Mother Superior, she has the grit. But they were like, okay, before you commit to this, spend a year away and just see if this is gonna be your path. And then she fell in love with my grandpa, of course. So that was a different journey for her.
Both sides of my family come from quite — religion has been their source of healing and purpose. And my parents met in church, in a house church in Florida. They raised me in that. And I've seen the goodness that can come out of that. Although I disagree with my parents on a lot of things, I do think the person I've become is because of the principles that they raised me with. This true, not pressured, but genuine taking pride in service and truly serving community and serving those in need — not out of obligation but out of a real experience of love. With their idea of God or whatever, some experience had led them to fall in love with humanity, and I see that in my parents. It's real.
Even though they have some bigoted beliefs that are rooted in fear and a lack of understanding, they do love people. They taught me to prioritize that even as a kid.
But yeah, they raised me in religion, but I noticed I took it up a little bit more radically than even maybe they did. And I think it was because I'm queer, and that meant being Christian meant not finding a romantic partner. And so it really severed me from the opportunity to be like, yeah, I can live a life, find a wife, and be happy, and just be a church member. I had to confront like, oh, I don't fit into this institution. So either I have to really change myself to conform and be functional in this institution, or I have to reject it. I didn't have any other opportunity.
And so my first attempt — because I think people think I'm naturally just like a punk or a rebel, and I have become that. But I am such a soft people pleaser. Maybe had self-doubt or maybe — not all of it is bad. Some of it is just understanding that I was a young kid at the time, and older people tend to have more wisdom. So part of it was me just trying to submit to leadership and be like, hey, these people seem like people I respect and are doing great things from my perspective. So I was trying to submit and be a young leader submitting to elders and people that I perceived as having wisdom.
That's why I really tried to just dive into the church and give it an honest attempt to be a really good Christian. But little by little I just started to see the cracks in the institution. And it's not black and white. I know these people are not horrible evil people. I believe some of the ideology is quite harmful and hurts people — it hurt me. But they're doing their best. There's a fear that prevents them from seeing the world in a more clear way, is how I see it.
SHAY: Was there any part of that experience — and this is interesting, hearing you bring up how you revered the wisdom of the elders. That's something that we've spoken about on the podcast before, about how shitty particularly white Americans are about how we treat our elders. And a lot of that is systemic. For anybody in America, the fact that we are just not where we should all be economically — we aren't set up for success when it comes to taking care of our elders. So we all just have to put them away somewhere and forget about them, because they are unfortunately a burden for the way that things are set up right now.
But like I envy other countries and cultures that are able to just still soak up every drop of wisdom they can from their elders. Was there any part of your first generation experience that was able to inform your experience there?
CAIN: Yeah, totally. I think because my parents moved the family out to Kentucky away from all the extended relatives, I didn't see my grandparents as much. It was only on summers when we were back in Florida. But then around high school and university, we moved back — because my parents knew that their parents were getting older, and so there was them stepping in to support. Both my parents are the youngest in their families. And so they were like, okay, it's time to serve our family and carry our weight, and others' weights.
But it's funny because my dad also confronted and was honest. He was like, you know, partially we did move away because we also saw how our family fought, and we kind of didn't wanna expose you guys to the other side of family that's broken. Like, siblings not talking for a year because someone said something at a party and then it gets explosive. And my parents are not like that. They are not explosive people. I'm the same way — I don't like fighting in that way.
But then at an older age, they were like, yeah, it's time to go back and help them out. I did get to see my grandparents in their last years of life. I still have one abuelita alive, and we have a deep connection still. I love her so deeply.
And it's sad because for the first couple years of moving to California, I had to block her number, which was just such a hard thing to do. Because I think she sensed that I was going in a different path, and she was so afraid for me. Partially because she was so involved in supporting my Christian music — even my aunt and my grandma financially investing in studio time for me. They saw that as missionary work. They saw me as like a missionary really with my music. And then when things began to shift out of that framework, there was fear and kind of disappointment and offense.
But I don't know how much my grandma is seeing of my work now. I hope not. But my memories with her are that she's so fun, that we would dance, that we celebrated in that way, that she's such a kooky lady in her own way. It's just tough that an ideology can sever just the beauty of human connection. Because I'm like, oh my gosh, if we move away from all our ideological differences and we're just dancing, music is a great unifier in that sense. It's just human connection, right? Beyond language, beyond all of this.
But the truth is, religion is how she coped as an immigrant, as a single mom, as a divorced woman coming to the States. That's how she coped. In some ways I don't even want to say that isn't true for her. I think it did work for her in many ways. But things that work in some seasons don't work in other seasons. And I think that's what's beautiful about generations — it's like every generation is almost confronting what didn't work in the previous.
Gen Z talks about millennials, and both millennials and Gen Z talk about boomers. Every generation is gonna have their shortcomings, where they really failed in certain aspects. But you have to see they were probably pendulum swinging from the previous.
So the truth is there has to be understanding. And I do think the story of humanity — if that's what we're gonna talk about — it's like each generation completing the unfinished work of the previous. The work is never finished, and some people can only get it so far. But then what? We're just gonna disgrace them for only getting so far? They only saw what was before them.
I guess I just see movement forward, and everyone is at their own pace. I have hope also. Sometimes it seems like things are getting worse and only becoming more unraveled. But I think if we zoom out, things are moving in the right direction. I have to stay hopeful.
SHAY: Oof. Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh gosh, you're such a deeply kind and compassionate person, and that's coming through so strongly. Oh my God. How do you explain to people who might get a first impression and be jarred by the imagery that they see of you? Because so much of — and I don't wanna diminish the artistry that you're putting into it — but a lot of the portrayals that you're doing are maybe considered demonic-looking or scary or frightening. How do you make that connection for people of that particular expression of your artistry?
CAIN: I think my artistic sensibilities and my style leans towards the taboo. And I think it's all also an extension of shadow work. Everyone loves the light and loves the good, but I've seen — like, integrity is one thing. You can say beautiful words, but it's really through a lived experience that words carry weight. And maybe I have that perspective from being in church spaces. I've heard pretty words. I've heard pastors say encouraging things, and then it comes out that behind the scenes there's corruption.
So I think my artist project is non-duality through polarity. It's using extremes, and it's also poking a joke at appearances. Things may seem one way, but then the truth is much more big —
Do you have a cat playing with a toy offscreen?
SHAY: I fully have a cat playing with a toy.
CAIN: Let me get this ball. I'm so sorry.
SHAY: No, it's fine. It's just so funny.
CAIN: I fully — Mezcal, my little cat. We just had to get him fixed.
SHAY: Mezcal.
CAIN: Yeah, he's so cute. He has a little cone on right now because we had to get him fixed. Poor little guy. But he's healing. He's very loopy because he just had the procedure. He's a little drugged up.
SHAY: And now we just took away his toy after you took away his cojones. Poor Mezcal. Yeah.
CAIN: Poor little guy. He has nothing.
SHAY: He's the cuddliest.
CAIN: He's the cuddliest. Yeah. Shadow work. So it's like — in the West, we're so afraid to confront death. It's such a taboo. We don't talk about it. It's uncomfortable, that thing that we all wanna avoid. But I actually find death as a part of everything, just as much as life. We love the beauty of birth and life, but I think there's a wisdom that comes from understanding the hard things, the ugly aspects of life, the brutality of life. All these things I make sure are part of my understanding of everything, so that it gives my art context.
I'm very much about, what is the thing I'm afraid of? What is the thing I'm resisting? What is the thing that is hard for me to accept? And how do I confront it and then present that in my work?
I don't know if that's why maybe my aesthetics seem that way. I think it all makes a lot more sense when you hear the album, because I'm confronting a lot more harder topics and experiences that have been really painful.
Even Cain Culto, right? Cain is this kind of villainous character in the Bible. He ends rejected — rejected from God and his family — because he murdered his brother. He did something quite unforgivable in the eyes of God. But then I see all these other characters find God's forgiveness, and then I'm like, well, what about Cain?
And so something about that was me taking such a dark name that holds all this negative energy and asking, how do I transmute that name into writing a completely different narrative? It's this bold, like, let me take the ugliest thing and just write what I want to write over that name.
SHAY: Wow.
CAIN: Yeah, that's really where it came from. I related to his rejection. I think my story is one of feeling quite rejected. And it's like, so then what? What comes? What's the other side of that? What's the fulfillment of that, and how do we transmute that? I think my work — talking about shadow work — it's a practice of transmutation. And that's really how I view everything that I create.
And so yeah, I think even just as a name and as a symbol, it's kind of this radical belief in beauty, really, is how I see it.
SHAY: To live inside your brain for one day — like, what is the dumbest shit that you do? Like, when you just wanna be just freaking dumb, just fucking useless —
CAIN: I love coconut water. I love Trim. Do you know Trim on TikTok?
SHAY: Wait, Trim on TikTok?
CAIN: Trim is this new rapper, and she's the coolest. And I love that — you said, like, what's the dumbest thing? I love that I saw this article about vocal stimming, like how a lot of songs are breaking now, and I love vocal stims. It's meaningless, and it's just silly and goofy and catchy. Wait, have you seen the Mango Chutney guy?
SHAY: Yes. Yes, I have. He's making beats and just —
CAIN: Yeah. Yep. I love that shit. And she has this song Coconut Water, and I'm thinking, I wonder if coconut water sales are up from this song, because I'm at the grocery store —
SHAY: That's not dumb enough for me. You're still thinking about sales. I need you to be freaking dumb.
CAIN: I don't know. I love goofiness. I think Chismosa was — do you know that song of mine? I think it was one of those songs that I wanted to contrast. I wanted it to be so simple and just goofy. Obviously it's referencing Dora and SpongeBob and all that. There was something where I wanted people to know that my work can be so lighthearted and just stupid. Like, we were shooting the video and I think at the end of the music video we're just cracking up because we're in full costumes with socks on in the pool, just acting cunty with our unfunctional nails. We literally — you hear us laughing.
Anyways, we don't have to make silliness deep, but I do think it's so profound and powerful. Because I think one thing about me — I'm gonna be honest — I sometimes take life too seriously. I'm a very intense person when it comes to my art.
SHAY: Really? Well —
CAIN: Yeah. With shoot days I'm so hyperfocused. It's like —
SHAY: I can imagine you being like a Stanley Kubrick type.
CAIN: Yeah, I get very robotic in some ways, just because I'm juggling so many things and it's all about — well, you're lighting yourself on fire —
SHAY: Yeah.
CAIN: Yeah. I get very rigid. And I'm trying to learn how do I, hopefully when I have more team and less pressure solely on me, become more lighthearted. But I'm very ruthless in my pursuit of the perfect vision and really executing it right. My sets, I think everyone would say they're fun, but also I'm gonna push everybody to really challenge themselves, because I'm pushing myself and my limits every single time, every shoot. To exhaustion. And so I expect that from collaborators.
The vibes are fun and exciting, but they're also gonna feel exhausted afterwards, and I push people. And I mean, what was the question? Oh yeah, silliness. But I can get very — I'm silly, but I'm working on maybe taking the stakes down a little. I mean, I also get intense because we're working with bigger budgets, at least for me now. So okay, we're spending 8 to 10K on a music video — this has to work. So I get quite intense about it. I wish I could still be more fun, but it's work. And so I do lock in in that way.
But yeah, my natural state, I love to be silly. And I think the friends that stay in my life are those that have that energy, because I crave it too. I hope I only grow to become more goofy in this life. I really hope.
SHAY: There you go.
CAIN: That's my goal. I wanna be a goofy old man one day. That's my goal.
SHAY: You could do it. But I also wanna encourage you — one of my all-time favorite artists, George Michael, he fired 15 saxophonists before he landed on the 16th to do the Careless Whisper sax line.
CAIN: Yeah. Yeah.
SHAY: He was notorious for firing background vocalists over and over again, kindly and professionally. But he knew what he wanted and what he was looking for.
CAIN: Yeah. That's something that I'm still learning how to do because I do care about people. But I notice the moments when I get — yeah, sometimes I care about my art more, honestly. And that's hard. It's me figuring out the lines of what is important to me and how do I care for the people on my team's wellbeing, because that is a priority. But at some point when things come between me and my vision and my art, a different side of me comes out that I didn't even realize was there. Those are things I've had to confront this year within my own shadow.
What's really important in the end? I have a line at the end of the closing track of this album, and it says, I'm gonna turn to dust, I'm gonna rot in a coffin, and everything I've done is gonna be forgotten. And then it says, but it's okay, it's kind of beautiful that way. And I think that's something I still haven't fully unpacked in myself, because the art is so valuable to me. But in the end, it all is forgotten in time. Maybe a really good piece of art will last generations, but in the end it will be forgotten. And so then what does matter? It's really only the present moment and how you make people feel. The presence is really all that we have.
I think there's more for me to explore in that truth, because sometimes I am living so much for this temporary creation that I'm making, and I place so much weight and importance on it. And it is in its own right, because it feels like part of my purpose. But also it's not. And so those are just some things that I'm thinking about within my own life right now.
SHAY: I had just one more topic that I really wanted to get into.
CAIN: Yeah.
SHAY: One of my favorite songs of yours — I guess because I can semi relate to it a lot — Chiquilinda. Oh, do you mind telling me about that song? What it took for you to go there? Because you mentioned earlier you were nervous about saying certain things in your music. Was it hard to go there in that song and talk to her?
CAIN: Yeah. I wrote it so many years ago, even before releasing it. I remember it being really painful writing that. A lot of tears. And also mourning. It's really about my two younger sisters. One is four years younger, and the other one is 12 years younger. And it started from mourning the missed years of my youngest sister, really missing so many of her formative years and me having to move away. And going no contact with my family, but then also — she's a kid, you know? She doesn't really know what's happening. And not being able to explain everything because she's a kid. She doesn't get it.
So it started from the mourning of that loss, and I still feel that loss. Even now that I'm talking with my family, I'm still really mostly close with my middle sister, the one who's four years younger. So I'm still working on how do I — it is, I guess, as simple as reaching out, but we feel like strangers in many ways. So that's still something that I'm working towards, repairing those relationships. And not only repairing, but just fighting for closeness again.
But so much good has come out of that song. It's one that my parents can listen to again.
SHAY: Really?
CAIN: Yeah. And my sister loves it too. And I think because of that song she — she's very avoidant, more than me, and I can be avoidant as well. I think the song, I was so embarrassed to show it to her. Not embarrassed, but just like, I don't know, I couldn't get myself to do it. But for some reason I can share it on the internet for everyone.
But she was telling me when I saw her in Florida that she was like, yeah, I saw it immediately. She was like, honestly, I've been watching all your stuff. She was like, it just felt silly that I was always watching the videos and I just should tell you. She was like, yeah, I saw the song and it means a lot. And from there we were just both kind of owning our parts in it, like why we'd become so distant.
In many ways I hold a lot of responsibility because I feel like the older brother. But I think because I was in such a fragile space, I couldn't be the person that was reaching out and checking on my younger sisters. I just felt too fragile, and I felt angry at them because in many ways I saw my sister Allison kind of aligned with my parents. And it hurt. But now we're at a better place, and it's been nice to see that she's on her own journey. It might not look the same as mine.
And I told her, I was like, Allison, I know you see me and my life might look scary to you because of how I present. And I was like, don't ever feel like I'm gonna pressure you to exist in a way that's not authentic to you. I just want you to feel like you can express and be and question and be curious about life. Don't limit yourself. But don't think that even if you are finding some of the holes within the framework that we were raised in, it has to be as extreme as my journey. Mine has been a surrender for the sake of art almost. Your life can look however it is.
So there's been a lot of repair there. A lot of care. And I feel much more positive about it. On a lot better terms with my parents.
SHAY: Wow.
CAIN: Yeah. It feels good. Even I've been telling them about all the Pride shows I'm about to play. And it's funny because I hold all this resentment sometimes towards them, or I did more, because they still believe certain things that I find harmful. But then I remember their personality and how fun they are, and sweet, and I'm surprised by how open they can be at times.
Like, I was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna be performing at St. Pete's Pride in St. Petersburg up in North Florida. And I said, I can get you on the guest list if you guys wanna come, but I don't know what's gonna be happening. It's Pride. Like, my set's gonna be family-friendly, but I don't know what other people are gonna be doing, so I can't be responsible for what you guys are exposed to.
And then they were cracking a joke. My dad was like, well, I might just have to show up there in a G-string or something to shock you. And I'm like, okay, Dad.
SHAY: I'm like —
CAIN: And to me that felt like healing, just like us joking. Like, even when I do it it's for just the ridiculousness of it. And so it's cute to see my parents begin to accept my art and who I am in the world, and my queerness I guess in some ways. Yeah, it's cute.
SHAY: That's so beautiful.
CAIN: Beautiful, my dad in a G-string.
SHAY: No, but just like the remark of him meeting you at that halfway point, inching towards you — that's wonderful.
CAIN: Yeah, even him saying like, yeah, let me go, and honestly saying like he might come to support me. That means a lot. That's amazing.
SHAY: Huge. Are you gonna be doing any Pride shows in New York? Because I will be at New York Pride.
CAIN: I don't know if this year we had a New York date. Actually, maybe. I think my booker did just — we were emailing about something. I don't know if it's in August or something about adding a New York date.
SHAY: Okay, because I'm taking a family member of mine who just came out, and I would love to celebrate by being front and center screaming at you.
CAIN: Oh, that'd be so fun. Yeah.
SHAY: Yes. Okay. So your album is coming out when? Please let the listeners know.
CAIN: It'll be out in September, right before my headline tour.
SHAY: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Me too. I'm so freaking excited. It's gonna be fun. I can't thank you enough for being here. Like, you're here. This is — thank you for reaching out. You were so generous and encouraging with your emails and everything, and yeah, this was great.
CAIN: And not creepy at all.
SHAY: Not creepy at all. No. So sweet. Yeah, I'm excited. This was great. Thank you for just chatting. And clearly you've been listening to the work, so it means a lot just to — I feel understood. Really fun time.
SHAY: I'm so looking forward to the world continuing to hear you and see you, and just get some healing from this art that you're putting out. Because I know that you're just gonna help save the world one song at a time.
CAIN: Aw, that's so sweet. So no pressure. Like — I used to think that way, of saving the world. But really, what it is, it's creating work that heals yourself. And as you're healing yourself in the work, people receive that and pick up whatever they want to. But that's been the shift. Because I used to think like that — oh my God, as a Christian, I was a missionary saving the world, right? But it's different. It's about becoming the best version of myself. And the art helps me through that.
And it's funny, I was talking with my partner Omar about the test of fame, and how as things begin to grow, now is the test of your character. And so that's been — we're on the journey. So y'all gotta keep me accountable.
SHAY: Yes. We absolutely will.
CAIN: Yes.