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Life throws darkness but Mending Lives ignites the light within. Listen to people willing to share their real-life stories of coping with significant loss. Through inspiring conversations and a touch of spirituality, we explore themes of resilience, adversity and grief.
E4: Breaking Barriers: A Psychologist's Journey from Disadvantage to Empowerment
Jane_Houng: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jane Hong, and this is Mending Lives, where I'm talking with people from a patchwork of places. Some have had their lives ripped apart by loss, Some are in the business of repairing others brokenness. But we're all seeking to make this world more beautiful.
Asma Torkham is a Pakistani psychologist based in Islamabad. She's worked for over 10 years with national and international child and women centered NGOs. Since 2020, she's been a volunteer team member of the British Health Psychology Society and an active member of the South Asian Members UK Psychology Network.
I was drawn to her by her passionate dedication to counselling victims of sexual violence, as well as her work on the mental health of the police force. We had a wide ranging discussion on subjects such as child marriage, femicide, and gender equality, [00:01:00] as well as men's attitudes and behaviour towards women.
I believe the world needs more young women like Asma. She is outspoken, dedicated, and selfless in her pursuit of improving the rights of women less educated than herself. Enjoy listening.
So Asma, you've been up since 4am, is that right?
Yes. Because it's Ramadan and you have to eat before sunrise and after sunset and during the day you cannot drink or eat. Anything right?
Asma Toorkham: Yes, that's perfect because it's the beauty of Ramadan. I mean, we do this for the purity of our inner soul. So it is, it is beautiful that, uh, we know even right now I'm sitting in a lawn, no one can see me, even I can drink a single drop of water, but, um, [00:02:00] I'm not doing this. This perfection.
Jane_Houng: Yes. So self control and a chance for contemplation, for reflection. In the past, if you had. Any insights after completing Ramadan?
Asma Toorkham: Yes, last time, it's a great question. I was sick because I was taking medication. Um, and, uh, it was really tough for me to go through with that 13 hours fasting.
But, uh, Which gave me the energy because I thought that is for my inner self and self control, as you just said, so I can do it. So that was really hard part, but, uh, you know, that gave me courage. I can control myself. Uh, my behavior and my life, so God can help me. I think it's, uh, all, uh, related to your brain, how you think you can do it.
If you think that [00:03:00] you can do it, I think brain and even the environmental energy supports you in your positive, uh, mindset. So, uh, I was missing that how tough it was the last Ramazan. And, um, comparatively is really an easy going Ramazan this time because I'm physically, um, 80 percent fit and I can control myself better than that last year.
Jane_Houng: Getting older, more control. Anyway, you're a Pakistani psychologist who's devoted much of your life to issues of sexual harassment, gender based violence and gender equality. And it seems it all began with a bachelor and master degree in health psychology. So what strands of the degrees that you studied led you to focus on these topics, rather than others within mental health?
Asma Toorkham: Thank you Jane, really, uh, a wonderful question. First of all, I'm really [00:04:00] thankful, uh, for having me on your, the show, a wonderful podcast, Mending Lives, and thank you for being my friend. Uh, it is interesting and amazing that how we became friends. Um,
Jane_Houng: We've become friends, haven't we? So, you know, with, with the preparation for this, I feel very close to you and I'm delighted to be talking face to face now.
Asma Toorkham: Yes, yes, that's wonderful. That's, I mean, it will remain a, a golden part of my life till my last breath . Yes.
Jane_Houng: Aha. Let's hope it changes to diamond. But anyway. Yes. You and health psychology. Yes. You know, why, why focus on, um, rather than other issues in, in mental health? Was there anything in your childhood or within your society that motivated you, for example?
Asma Toorkham: Yes, Jane, I was born into a traditional lower middle class family of South Punjab, especially, uh, the Rami Khan, a vulnerable district, , where education [00:05:00] facilities are limited. Infrastructure-wise, this area is poor. In our society, being a girl was undervalued, a sentiment that persists still today. So in a patriarchal society, no one wants girls. On my birth as a fourth, again, a daughter out of seven siblings. It was really tough. It's part of my mother's life to face people around her.
Um, the family I was raising upheld strict Um, there is no permission for girls to go, , to study for school or, or university. With limited decision making, women had no right to take the decision.
Jane_Houng: So wait a minute. So, so women are blamed for the sex of their child in Pakistan.
Asma Toorkham: , Yeah unfortunately, if there are girls, multiple girls, what sign says is none of their concerns. They say why [00:06:00] a woman had, I mean, gave birth to the girls. Right?
Let me tell you the joint family structure impose new societal pressures on a woman. Then, um, I witnessed the child marriage of my elder sister. She was just 13. With the double age of her, I mean, man older than her. So, child marriage of my elder sister, uh, fueled my determination to challenge these norms. Until the age of 15, I was interested to study Urdu literature rather than psychology. But a tragic incident in my neighborhood altered my trajectory.
A neighbor threw acid, uh, on his wife, suspecting of her adultery, uh, which ultimately led her to death. So that woman often, I had chit chat with that woman who frequently visited my mother. So similarly, another girl in my neighborhood village was murdered for refusing to marry a man much older than her.
So these [00:07:00] disturbing incidents couple with my every reading of stories and novels in childhood, deeply imprinted on my memory, unable to find satisfactory answers of my lot of many questions that why, this woman goes why. So I became increasingly curious about human behavior. I wanted to understand the motivation behind such acts of violence, uh, that how one can murder a human being like themselves.
So I observed everything is associated with child, , with childhood behavior. And curiosity ultimately compelled me, , to opt psychology.
Jane_Houng: So, so Asma, you're now late 30s. You're single. You're highly educated. You have such a, a busy life. Given all the things you do, um, not just as program manager, but also as a program officer, as a social and health [00:08:00] psychologist, as a legal promoter, and even a co founder of an organization.
So, some of your work has been providing psychosocial support to over 5, 000 women and girls who suffered sexual violence or harassment in floods. There was one in 2010, 2014, and most recently 2022.
I have spent a lot of my time trying to raise awareness about sexual violence, femicide in Lebanon. And, alas, some of those problems that you've just revealed, uh, evident in Lebanon as well, punishing women, child marriage. It seems to me that there's a lot of shame as well around , with families to, to [00:09:00] speak out. So in Pakistan, What, how can you encourage women to, to tell more because that's where I believe change can begin. If people really know the facts, just like you've recounted.
How can we encourage women to speak out and be like you, you know, this, this is enough. Right. My neighbor was murdered. You know, my sister was married at the age of 13 to an old man.
You're very brave what you do. I mean, but, how can we make more of you in Pakistan?
Asma Toorkham: Thank you. Um, it's really important question because, uh, this is what I'm trying to do to make a difference for being my presence. Well, cultural factors significantly contribute to rape and sexual violence in Pakistan.
Um, individual difference from reporting, , these [00:10:00] cases due to fear of societal stigma. And concerns of dishonoring and acceptance by the society. Similarly, as I mentioned that patriarchal mindset, where men hold more power, you mentioned as in Lebanon, uh, leaving a woman vulnerable. And then gender inequality, which, , create disparities, which perpetuate unequal power dynamics, then honor and culture, then victim blame blaming, and then, , weak legal enforcement and lack of awareness.
So all these problems stems from not having the education. Pakistan has more than 50 percent of its population consisting of women, and most of them are living in rural areas. So where facilities, even if we talk about my city, where I'm right now sitting, there [00:11:00] I have to take, change two buses to reach out to my town.
So it, we are living in 21st century, it's 20, 2024, but still we don't have bus stop in my area. So what I'm trying to say, how we can produce more Ashwagandha, more brave women is the only way to get them educated. To give them at least the, , they're sure religion has given them. You're talking about Lebanon.
Lebanon is a Muslim majority country. I'm talking about Pakistan. It's a Muslim majority country. But unfortunately, the mindset, the uneducated mindset claim that is all. this is what Islam says, that, Islam, uh, barring women to get education. This is too totally nonsense. It's not, relevant to Islam. There is nothing to do with Islam. This is actually their power dynamics. We are men just want to hold, power.
So how we can make women powerful by giving [00:12:00] them education. And, um, let me tell you that, you mentioned the figures that I have more than 5000 women whom I have provided counseling. So, only two things I each time any, victim or frame or harassment used to visit me. I tell them that please, number one, you have to make sure to get education. I am here to support you. I mean, you can start non-formal education, online education, education is the only way which give you the power and strength to foresee the problems around you and then make yourself financially independent because financial independence is the actual strength is the actual power. If you are financially independent, then you can hold uh, the decision of your life. So, um, two thing first, get them educated, then, let them be financially independent.
These are the two things, uh, through that podcast, I'm [00:13:00] giving message to everyone, especially to women who are listening our podcast that please let, uh, it's, uh, it's not late if you're 40, 50, 60. Let's just get educated and make yourself financially independent. And then please challenge these norms. Let me share. Please challenge these norms. There is nothing to do with Islam or any religion. No religion barring any human being from getting their, at least, basic human rights.
Jane_Houng: And these days with the availability of free information on the internet, there is an opportunity, isn't there?
I mean, you don't necessarily have to pay to be educated. Of course you need wifi. That might be an issue in the, in, in Pakistani villages. But, yeah, education, language, ability to communicate, , to write well and yeah, financial independence. But it's a, I imagine it's a [00:14:00] tall order for many, but you have to start somewhere.
I mean, and as I say, with the internet, and all this digital new world, there are lots of opportunities, even on your phone, right? You can find out and learn so much. I suppose, , you've talked with rape survivors in, um, with the flood, I suppose you have the same message for the women, uh, who are victims of domestic abuse and violence. Um, but tell me, um, what is SDG five gender equality? And, um, what's your message about that? You spoke at a conference in 2022, you were a speaker. Um, it was an international conference and it was held on international women's day.
Asma Toorkham: Yes.
Jane_Houng: What is that?
Asma Toorkham: So, uh, you see in 2015 , um, if I'm not wrong, [00:15:00] um, nations have, set together and decided that how we can, um, make lives better of the world. So they have, uh, I've chosen 17 sustainable development goals. So, uh, I opted to, advocate or to work for three or four SJDs, like SJD 3, uh, health and wellness, because I'm a psychologist, so my focus, my degree is relevant to this.
And then SJD 5 is about gender equality, and then SJD environment, or and SJD 16 for peace and tolerance. And SGD5 is about sustainable, uh, development goal five number focus on achieving gender equality.
Jane_Houng: In United nations? Or...
Asma Toorkham: Yes in in every country, every country who is signatory of different territories with United Nations are bound to make sure that these sustainable development goals by the end of 2030 and 20, uh, 50 must be, I mean, uh, applicable.[00:16:00]
And it is have certain, uh, points how they can go, the governments can achieve these sustainable development goals. I. you are asking me that uh sustainable development goals number five, it focus on achieving gender equality and empowerment, empowering all women and girls. It aim to end discrimination, violence, and harmful practices against women and girls. And ensure equal opportunities and leadership and decision making and provide access to reproductive rights and health care.
So achieving gender, uh, sustainable development goals number five is crucial. For promoting inclusive and sustainable development worldwide. So my message in that, the gender equalities seminar was that to raise awareness inspired people, not only, women, but [00:17:00] men, because men, unless men are not accepting those, uh, DCLs or words, so there is going to be no change.
So to raise awareness , to inspire men. And people around , us so that they can take action and mobilize stakeholder to accelerate progress toward, uh, achieving sustainable development goals by and, uh, by doing so, we, I just wanted to create a more equitable and inclusive world for all, not for women, but for men, because unless the mindset of, uh, men are not going to be changed, no change can occur.
So my aim is to. cultivate and trim the mindset of voice, especially in men, because I have observed that, older men are quite, I mean, lazy to accept the change, but the youth are the catalyst of change. So I believe that one day the change will occur eventually. So that's why my focus [00:18:00] remain in that tribe on boys.
Jane_Houng: I believe that profoundly too, that youth are the catalyst for change. And you know about my Becky's Button project in Lebanon. Thank you for your interest. Thank you for volunteering to join our team. Right? We want to go worldwide and we want to spread the messages, of raise awareness about sexual. But, One thing for 2024 is that we are, we've said we're focusing on men.
Why? Because, you know, they're, they're the perpetrators and actually, and they have so much power and, I want to engage in some kind of dialogue with them. Um, just to say, Hey, you know, imagine if Becky, my daughter, imagine if she'd been your daughter or your sister or your wife, , how would you feel just to kind of ideally get some emotional reaction, [00:19:00] um, to make men think and then encourage them to take care of the women.
around them, you know, that, that they love, their family members, their relatives, and even in their community, right?
You know, if they see some women, some woman in distress, why not go up and see what's going on and help? Don't be a bystander. It's tall order to change man, men's attitudes and behavior. The more I look into this, the more I understand why basically all those, uh, reports and statements and plans, that it's very rare that they come to fruition. I mean, for example, the United Nations would, they were talking about, um, have you heard about Orange The World?
Yes. in the, you know, stamp out all femicide by 2030. [00:20:00] Well, really, I mean the numbers have, are just continue to go up, so. Let's go back to the beginning. Let's talk to men, um, in our communities and ask them to reconsider their entrenched beliefs about women.
What do you think?
Asma Toorkham: Thank you Jane. There are a lot of many answers and buts and ifs, but, uh, you know, What you said, I'm doing already because, um, I believe where I raised in the area, very patriarchal, the decision only can be taken by men. And even if I can go out, I am a 30 year old girl, but I have to keep two year old boy with me because he will protect me on the street.
I mean, what nonsense, what kind of the mindset is this? So I observed that. Instilling respect for women begins at home where mothers play a vital role [00:21:00] during my sessions with women, mothers and girls in rural village. I emphasize the importance of teaching their sons to respect their daughters, not to respect, uh, I mean, teach their daughters to respect and how to sit and stand in the society.
So I emphasize. During my sessions with that woman, please, that please understand that it's now it's 2024. You have to teach your boys, your sons, your men to take, I mean, respect woman. I mean, give them the same responsibility. You are giving this to your daughters to the girls and also burden. Uh, your sons that all the owners in, uh, of the family is on your shoulder, not on the shoulder of girls.
So, you, you pointed out very important question, uh, I mean, note, you highlighted very important point. So, this is where I'm already working. And I [00:22:00] believe that education and awareness are key components of this initiative I have taken. Additionally, I conducted sessions with boys in schools and colleges to address and improve their attitude towards gender equality.
Uh, and mentioned previously, if you go through my social media account, you have seen that even on International Women Day, Women's Day, I was talking with boys. I mean, I was talking with men, because I mentioned that, while I was growing up, I've seen the DCN, so what we are more than in numbers. Women are more than in numbers, but they're very less than in DCN Powers. So that's why, unlike other organization or other peoples, I only opted to talk with boys and men. So, whatever United Nations says, it is still a long way to go, but I think we can be, , the first drop of the rain. [00:23:00] But, , since childhood, my focus remain, remains the men, I only work with men. I mean, it's not like that. I'm not working with women or girls, but my focus is that the whole, all power belongs to men in our society.
Jane_Houng: I noticed that on your Facebook pages, for example, often. You are standing beside men. I see you talking to a hundred police officers about mental health. You do a lot of work with men, right?
Asma Toorkham: Yes, because I consider that all powers are in their heads. So I talk to community villagers, Women really religious leaders that please taught your sons how to, I mean, take responsibility of their behaviors, not, uh, I mean, teach your daughters that all owners belong to them. I mean, it's not a way that each bad things are always associated with women.
Please get them, take the responsibility. So [00:24:00] my standing from day one is that please rehabilitate mindset or restructure the mindset of boys and youngsters, not the girls.
Jane_Houng: I would agree. It all begins at childhood. It's us women that produce boys, and as a mother, we can do a lot to teach our boys to respect, not just us, the women around them.
And to have a very good connection with your mother, I believe, would help to eliminate many problems related to men becoming violent against women. What do you think?
Asma Toorkham: I totally agree a thousand times, Jane, because I believe instilling respect for women begins at home, where mothers play a vital role.
During my sessions with men, mothers and rural [00:25:00] village, I emphasize the importance of teaching their sons to respect their daughters and treat them equally. By fostering this mindset from childhood, we , can create a society and culture of respect for women within Pakistani society within and around the world.
So I think change begins at their home from childhood. So it's important.
Jane_Houng: Hey, I notice you live on Jail Road. Is there a prison there?
Asma Toorkham: It's really, uh, it's really interesting question. So, Jail Road in Lahore is a very famous place where a lot of many university and colleges are occur. So you may say it's a prison.
Well, , though I never visited that jail, but let me share you in 2015. I get a consultancy, uh, from a PhD student. She, wanted to work on homicides to see, uh, the hidden reasons or motives that [00:26:00] why men or women murdered their blood relations. So, , jail load doesn't mean that I went to that jail, but I have visited other jails and find out, find out the reasons of homicides behavior.
Jane_Houng: So have you actually worked with a man who's, who's killed a woman, you know, offered psychological help? Is that part of your service?
Asma Toorkham: Not that, that they come to me for, taking counseling, uh, I'm sorry to say, uh, it's really pathetic to mentioning that in our society, where if someone talk about mental health issues, they consider that they are insane, then they have to be admitted in the hospital.
Mental health, uh, rehab center. It's not like that. But, , yeah, as I mentioned, um, just before that question that I went to James, it was a consultancy. So I have worked with those, , homicides men. So it was really tough. Some were, uh, even not accepting their mistake, but, most of them were [00:27:00] repenting on their sin that, oh, it was, I mean, heat of the moment that, we blame them of adultery.
Mostly blame. I mean, they never say that we have committed the scene of adultery, but they always blame the woman. So I work with them.
Jane_Houng: Very good. Well, um, in Lebanon, 80 percent of femicide cases are domestic and some. Yeah. argument between a wife and I have done a little research. It seems in Pakistan, it's, it's fairly similar.
I know that you've been working with police about, um, what they can do to counter gender based domestic violence, right? You've recently conducted a session. How did that go?
Asma Toorkham: Yeah, let me tell you a story. My maternal grandmother in 2010 gifted me a small part of land before changing the ownership. It was [00:28:00] under the cultivation of her nephew.
Uh, when I went there to take control of that land, he started threatening me and there were heat of, um, some bad, words. So I went to police stations to take justice and it was really pathetic to go on. And then I went to consul, assistant commissioner, deputy commissioner, a lot of many, I mean all institution I went.
It took me 15 years. To file my first investigation police report in 2010. I was just only, uh, 20 years old. And, in 12 12th of Feb 2024, I turned, I mean, when, my FYR would get registered, I turned 35. So it's really pathetic and, hard to mention that it took me. I'm, I consider myself, uh, educated and somehow empowered woman.
So this gave me an idea that, um, [00:29:00] that what about those women who are less educated, consisting 50 percent and half of the population of Pakistan. We are two hundereds and twenty plus million a population and you will say 110 or 20 million are the woman and what they're going to do with that behavior. I am educated. I have knowledge of law.
I'm working with. Those institutions. It took me 15 years. So I decided and I talked to regional police officer where I was went on 7th February 2024 that I filed the complaint. And he was hitting my complaint. He said, Okay, what we can do. Um, to solve your matter because you complained to, uh, Inspector General of Punjab, the provincial head of police.
I said, Oh, I'm going to take my, complaint back, unless you, allowing me to help. As a mental health and emotional wellbeing session.
Jane_Houng: Well done. [00:30:00]
Asma Toorkham: Why you think we are insane? And I say, ah, I didn't say like that. It took me 15 years to file my FIR. So why not to, uh, brainstorm and have a discourse with police, uh, that how genders, how and why gender sensitive behavior are important at our police stations.
So, well, uh, after a little bit of, discussion, he agreed. And this is how I went to police station. So I think, um, it's really important to, uh, work with the behavior of police, because police are the firsthand, uh, supporter of any case of violence or rape or harassment.
Jane_Houng: Yep. So they're taking the statements.
All right. Um, I know in Lebanon, some women were telling me that even that is awful because this, these events usually happen at night and if they go to the police station that the guys are in pajamas and sleeping and very annoyed to be woken up and, [00:31:00] um, I can't imagine but, um, it's, that is the reality.
And you're telling me that in, yeah, that in Pakistan, um, it's so difficult for women. But anyway, what were your core messages and were they listening? What responses did you get?
Asma Toorkham: Well, you know, change never occurs so at one instance. It only, uh, it's a bang, which I'm in create first. So change is a gradual process, right?
Jane_Houng: Yes.
Asma Toorkham: It takes time. It's not first time that I was working with police before that. Uh, when I was working with Bidari organization, World Beer International or UNICEF or a lot of many organizations, we work with police. So it's tough for instance, for them because they are all male. And that their patriarchal mindset and their traditions, , never allow them. I mean, let me tell you, when I was just 22, I went to [00:32:00] police station, the police officers was gazing at me and he was very uncomfortable that that little girl, just 22 year old coming as to teaching us how to behave uh, in police stations, how they can be a gender sensitized while reporting or filing an FIR of a woman, especially because in rape cases here in Pakistan, mostly their negative attitude and policing system is so corrupt that major evidences of rape cases are, I mean, you may say, tampered, they are wasted because if a girl's complaining rape, so medical medical legal should be within 24 hours .
The delaying tactics, uh, results in damaging, you may say, their claims that they have been raped. So, police are, in many cases, become the perpetrator and supporter. So I think that's how.
Jane_Houng: So difficult. Anyway, alas, we're getting towards the end [00:33:00] of this conversation. And, um, I've just been calculating how old you really are.
And I, I understand that, yeah, you're, you're one year younger than my daughter, Becky. Ah, well listen, indirectly, what you and I are doing, is for her. So thanks so much for all your support and your interest in Becky's butt and we'll be in touch. Um, but if you don't mind me asking, If there is a heaven, she'd be smiling down at us, wouldn't she, listening to this and smiling.
What are your religious beliefs regarding meeting up with loved ones in another world, , as a Muslim?
Asma Toorkham: Hmm, uh, that's really touching, uh, question. I feel the pain, losing a girl or daughter, the only daughter, but in every religion, the concept of a day of judgment is universal. Uh, I [00:34:00] believe and, , significantly the accountability, uh, for once did, those who have lived virtually, uh, destined for heaven and those who have, strayed, uh, faces the consequences in hell.
Similarly, it is, um, believed that, uh, dreams reflect of one state of mind, a peaceful soul experience, uh, serene dreams while an So I'm certain that Becky, your daughter, find peace in heaven due to her compassionate work and with migrant because you are now equals your own initiative. As you mentioned earlier in our telephonic conversation, so I heard even in your first podcast.
So just as your persuasive justice in Becky's sexual harassment case, potentially preventing similar incidents like Rebecca Dykes, your daughter. So these [00:35:00] actions bring peace to our soul, I believe, and I firmly believe. Would be undoubtedly be proud of you and observing you from heaven and smiling at you and that what a wonderful mom I have.
Jane_Houng: Oh, I don't know whether she thought that at the time. But anyway, dear Asma, you must tell me if you have a dream about Becky, right? If she enters your dreams, then whoa, who knows? It's, it's such a mystery, isn't it, all this? But, hey, and another thing I haven't, mentioned, um, is that you are hoping to do a PhD in Hong Kong.
You've applied, um, and have you, has there been any news about that? Is there anything I can, any way I can help?
Asma Toorkham: Yes, you can help on our telephonic conversation. Even you said, I told you, uh, Last night I received a text from, the one of the students who [00:36:00] applied with me. He said, Oh, I'm selected. What about you?
So I said, let me tell you, Jane, in start a supervisor was, very, , I mean, okay with me. I shared my CV. I talked about with her that are you okay with. My that experience with that knowledge because university professors usually think if, the person or those candidate can, um, print multiple research paper, that's okay with that.
I said, I have ample of experience. I'm focused more on human grooming, especially for societal cause. So let me give a chance. Uh, I have published two books. I can do this. So. What I need from you is, uh, I need, your help for re selection for my PhD. If you think that I'm capable enough. With that, experience.
So I think your help me, um, help will be a vital, , for me for selection. .
Jane_Houng: I am more than happy to do anything I can, , to help you on this. So, , for the purposes of this podcast, we'll [00:37:00] say bye and I will be in touch very soon about that. Good news that at least you've got, had you have engagement with, with a potential supervisor.
Well done Asma, fantastic. Wouldn't that be amazing if. Uh, you're living in Hong Kong soon anyway. Really better go now. So thanks again for joining me and all the very best. Enjoy your weekend.
Asma Toorkham: Thank you. Thank you, Jane. Hopefully soon I'll see you in Hong Kong, and join your Becky's cause.
Jane_Houng: Okay, bye.
Asma Toorkham: Bye Jane. Take care. Bye.
Jane_Houng: And you,
Thanks again for listening to Mending Lives with me, Jane Houng. It was produced by Brian Hou. You can find relevant links to this show in the comments section. I would not, could not be doing this without many people's support and [00:38:00] encouragement. So until next time, goodbye.