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Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
[00:00:07.12 - 00:00:10.05] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:10.10 - 00:00:13.14] Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on business
[00:00:13.14 - 00:00:15.22] leaders who are creating intentional cultures.
[00:00:16.12 - 00:00:18.23] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I'm your host.
[00:00:18.23 - 00:00:23.12] I'm the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that aims to help create 1 million
[00:00:23.12 - 00:00:26.09] healthier, more fulfilling work cultures.
[00:00:26.22 - 00:00:29.09] Today I have the pleasure of welcoming Sandy Hall.
[00:00:29.09 - 00:00:34.00] She's the owner of re/cognition, a leadership development consultancy and a
[00:00:34.00 - 00:00:36.02] resilience specialist.
[00:00:36.12 - 00:00:42.12] She ran the best workplace program at IBM for New Zealand for a few years.
[00:00:42.18 - 00:00:46.18] She also has a passion for neuroscience and how it intersects with leadership.
[00:00:46.18 - 00:00:48.11] She's going to tell us more about it.
[00:00:49.04 - 00:00:53.19] And as she tells me, she's excited as she's about to go for a three day back
[00:00:53.19 - 00:00:59.23] country walk in the rainforest of the South tip of New Zealand and swim with
[00:00:59.23 - 00:01:01.05] Hector dolphins.
[00:01:01.05 - 00:01:03.13] So that is an amazing intro.
[00:01:04.02 - 00:01:07.00] Very welcome to the Rethink Culture Podcast, Sandy.
[00:01:07.13 - 00:01:08.13] Thank you so much.
[00:01:08.13 - 00:01:12.01] I'm really honored and humbled to be here today, Andreas.
[00:01:12.01 - 00:01:14.05] And excited to talk to you.
[00:01:14.05 - 00:01:18.01] You're so easy to talk to about these things because we have mutual passions.
[00:01:18.01 - 00:01:18.22] Indeed.
[00:01:19.09 - 00:01:23.09] And, uh, these are culture and neuroscience among other things.
[00:01:23.09 - 00:01:26.23] And I also love walking, uh, and hiking.
[00:01:27.22 - 00:01:32.00] So starting, starting with, uh, where should we start?
[00:01:32.04 - 00:01:35.17] Starting with, um, culture.
[00:01:35.17 - 00:01:37.16] When did that become important to you?
[00:01:37.21 - 00:01:42.18] I think I've been observing people, leaders, culture all my life if I'm really
[00:01:42.18 - 00:01:43.18] honest with you.
[00:01:43.18 - 00:01:49.02] I remember as a small child my parents were very religious and I grew up in the
[00:01:49.02 - 00:01:54.19] church and I used to watch these preachers and watch them preach from the pulpit on a
[00:01:54.19 - 00:02:00.01] Sunday and be really fascinated by the cultures that they were forming and the
[00:02:00.01 - 00:02:03.02] churches that they were building.
[00:02:03.10 - 00:02:07.03] And my father and I would, at the end of...
[00:02:08.05 - 00:02:13.12] our lunch, which we always had together on a Sunday, my brothers would be bored by
[00:02:13.12 - 00:02:17.23] this, my mum would have drifted away from the table, we would be dissecting
[00:02:17.23 - 00:02:21.18] everything the pastor had said and everything that was going on in that
[00:02:21.18 - 00:02:23.03] church culture.
[00:02:23.08 - 00:02:29.03] And I think that sparked my interest in leadership development and culture and
[00:02:29.03 - 00:02:34.05] accountability and ownership right back from a very early age.
[00:02:34.15 - 00:02:35.14] That's so interesting.
[00:02:35.14 - 00:02:40.07] How were these cultures different to the cultures you work with today?
[00:02:41.00 - 00:02:42.00] The church cultures.
[00:02:42.00 - 00:02:44.14] Quite different, I have to say.
[00:02:44.14 - 00:02:49.21] And the church turned out to be a little bit disappointing in my experience.
[00:02:50.02 - 00:02:54.10] It was a Pentecostal movement that I was brought up in and my parents didn't stay
[00:02:54.10 - 00:02:59.12] in that movement over time because what happened is due to lack of accountability
[00:03:00.05 - 00:03:04.19] those leaders who became worshipped by their congregations, the good ones that
[00:03:04.19 - 00:03:13.10] were good at being impressive and engaging people, didn't always do so for the right reasons.
[00:03:13.10 - 00:03:19.16] And so I just became fascinated by humanity and who steps up to be a leader.
[00:03:19.16 - 00:03:25.13] And back then in my childhood, it was a tall male who would be able to step up as
[00:03:25.13 - 00:03:30.04] a leader inside that culture. And they didn't get a lot
[00:03:30.04 - 00:03:36.18] of really good support so as a result they became vulnerable to their own inherent weaknesses.
[00:03:36.20 - 00:03:41.14] Did you take any lessons for how a culture should be or should not be from those early days?
[00:03:41.14 - 00:03:43.00] A lot of lessons.
[00:03:43.00 - 00:03:44.16] I learned so much.
[00:03:44.16 - 00:03:49.13] I think that the biggest lesson is my mantra that we have as one of our core
[00:03:49.13 - 00:03:51.11] values at re/cognition.
[00:03:51.11 - 00:03:53.13] We believe that no leader should lead alone.
[00:03:53.13 - 00:03:58.14] That they need a peer group, they need people they can share with, they need to
[00:03:58.14 - 00:04:01.22] be continually learning and developing, and they need support.
[00:04:01.22 - 00:04:03.07] They need a support network.
[00:04:03.12 - 00:04:08.07] It's very easy for a leader to get to a point in their career where they know
[00:04:08.07 - 00:04:12.12] themselves well, they can be self-aware, they can develop the skills and be a
[00:04:12.12 - 00:04:16.05] passionate and vital leader inside an organisation.
[00:04:16.08 - 00:04:20.13] But unless they've got a safe space to unpackage things and grow and develop and
[00:04:20.13 - 00:04:25.23] learn how to handle tricky situations, they can very easy forget how the world
[00:04:25.23 - 00:04:27.12] perceives them.
[00:04:28.00 - 00:04:31.04] And that can be a really difficult place for a leader to get to.
[00:04:31.14 - 00:04:37.04] So that's a very interesting thought because leadership development, which you
[00:04:37.04 - 00:04:40.17] specialize in is usually on point.
[00:04:40.17 - 00:04:46.11] Like you, you intervene, you walk in a few months later, maybe you walk out, but that
[00:04:46.11 - 00:04:49.03] safe space needs to persist, right?
[00:04:49.03 - 00:04:54.08] It needs to be people, friends, psychological support, professional support.
[00:04:54.08 - 00:05:00.03] Mentors, coaches. Mentors. Feedback mechanisms.
[00:05:00.03 - 00:05:05.10] And not all of those leaders I was exposed to as a child were bad people and became corrupt.
[00:05:05.10 - 00:05:09.11] Many, many of them stayed good and quality leaders.
[00:05:09.11 - 00:05:14.02] But there were a lot that fell by the wayside because they didn't have decent
[00:05:14.02 - 00:05:18.05] systems of support and they had no way of getting realistic, meaningful feedback.
[00:05:18.15 - 00:05:27.07] Some of the leaders that had the safe space or this network of support, how were
[00:05:27.07 - 00:05:28.05] they supported?
[00:05:28.05 - 00:05:31.09] Like what structures or what people did they have around them?
[00:05:31.09 - 00:05:34.13] Governance structures, boards, mentors, coaches.
[00:05:34.13 - 00:05:36.12] Hmm.
[00:05:36.12 - 00:05:41.01] And were they intentional about that or was it the environment they found
[00:05:41.01 - 00:05:42.01] themselves in?
[00:05:42.09 - 00:05:43.23] They were intentional about it.
[00:05:43.23 - 00:05:47.17] Most of those church structures, going back to what I observed as a child, had
[00:05:47.17 - 00:05:49.07] something that was there.
[00:05:50.03 - 00:05:54.19] But if they didn't take that, and the feedback wasn't meaningful, because
[00:05:54.19 - 00:05:59.05] obviously it was a variable quality when we're talking about a religious feedback
[00:05:59.05 - 00:06:04.14] mechanism, and it could be that those governance structures weren't effective,
[00:06:04.18 - 00:06:07.05] and you see similar things inside businesses.
[00:06:07.05 - 00:06:08.15] There's a lot of parallels.
[00:06:08.15 - 00:06:17.13] So today's leaders that you work with, what are some of the examples you have
[00:06:17.13 - 00:06:26.04] seen where, let's take an extreme example, someone that was resistant to being told
[00:06:26.04 - 00:06:34.16] what to do, to be shown their blind spots, but then came to see a bigger picture
[00:06:34.22 - 00:06:37.05] after an intervention?
[00:06:37.10 - 00:06:41.21] Have you seen people change as a result of leadership development?
[00:06:41.21 - 00:06:48.19] Yeah, I got to witness this in an organization that I sat on the executive
[00:06:48.19 - 00:06:53.19] team of when I was the head of people and culture at Leading Edge, when we became a
[00:06:53.19 - 00:06:55.06] best workplace finalist.
[00:06:55.06 - 00:07:00.22] And initially when we started on that program of work, I had a CEO who was
[00:07:01.16 - 00:07:06.15] someone who had the ability to coach and bring out the best in his leaders.
[00:07:06.19 - 00:07:11.10] He was strength-based without being even conscious of it, but he could also take on
[00:07:11.10 - 00:07:14.06] board feedback and he was good at giving feedback.
[00:07:14.11 - 00:07:19.05] But some of his leaders paid lip service to the Best Workplaces program and they
[00:07:19.05 - 00:07:22.23] didn't see the value of it, but they knew they were on the journey and they had to
[00:07:22.23 - 00:07:24.11] be committed to it.
[00:07:24.11 - 00:07:28.03] And so they did and they were cynical, understandably cynical.
[00:07:28.13 - 00:07:33.10] But as we started to grow, and it did take five years, it wasn't a quick process, but
[00:07:33.10 - 00:07:36.11] as we started to shift the culture,
[00:07:36.18 - 00:07:41.17] people, run focus groups, get feedback, build mechanisms and when we took on board
[00:07:41.17 - 00:07:45.17] their feedback and we started to make the changes that we needed to make to build
[00:07:45.17 - 00:07:51.02] this really engaged culture, those leaders started to come on board and they started
[00:07:51.02 - 00:07:56.19] to recognize that this was a really good tool for them to get meaningful feedback
[00:07:56.23 - 00:07:58.22] that was enormous.
[00:07:59.13 - 00:08:05.04] And it gave them this reflective space to go, well, actually, I've got to fix this about me.
[00:08:05.04 - 00:08:09.00] And I've actually got to go and do something different in this area here.
[00:08:09.00 - 00:08:10.17] And this is valuable.
[00:08:11.02 - 00:08:14.11] I've now got the safe space in which to reflect and grow.
[00:08:14.18 - 00:08:18.04] And I don't think any of them didn't actually shift over time.
[00:08:18.04 - 00:08:21.19] They all started to see what would happen when their teams got really engaged in the
[00:08:21.19 - 00:08:27.09] energy and the extra effort they would go to, to go above and beyond once they were
[00:08:27.09 - 00:08:28.22] fully engaged.
[00:08:29.14 - 00:08:34.02] leaders were able to enable that engagement was game-changing for them.
[00:08:34.08 - 00:08:39.22] Was it traumatic for them to see how people perceive them and their blind spots
[00:08:39.22 - 00:08:41.08] that they weren't aware of?
[00:08:41.08 - 00:08:42.01] Yeah, it's hard.
[00:08:42.01 - 00:08:43.12] It's hard getting that feedback.
[00:08:43.12 - 00:08:45.02] It's very painful.
[00:08:45.02 - 00:08:46.12] Feedback's hard.
[00:08:46.13 - 00:08:48.13] Really good feedback is painful.
[00:08:48.13 - 00:08:54.06] I remember the first time I had a leader who could give me good feedback, just that
[00:08:54.06 - 00:08:57.14] sort of feeling that occurs.
[00:08:59.16 - 00:09:05.11] And I'm happy to share the details of that first solid piece of feedback I got.
[00:09:05.11 - 00:09:09.13] Over the years, I've had leaders who've given me feedback, but this leader...
[00:09:10.09 - 00:09:17.15] He was a CEO and he, within one week of me being hired, I ran a session with the
[00:09:17.15 - 00:09:22.15] leadership team off site around what we needed to do to fix the recruitment problem.
[00:09:22.15 - 00:09:24.14] We had 50% turnover.
[00:09:25.04 - 00:09:28.23] And I needed to model and work out what they needed to be hiring, work out what
[00:09:28.23 - 00:09:34.07] was broken, implement a recruitment process and shift the bar, raise the bar,
[00:09:34.07 - 00:09:35.08] get it higher.
[00:09:35.08 - 00:09:39.19] And in that session, I managed to get everything through and all the work done
[00:09:39.19 - 00:09:42.17] that I wanted to and the outputs there.
[00:09:42.21 - 00:09:47.10] And afterwards he sat me down over lunch and he said to me, how do you think it went?
[00:09:47.13 - 00:09:51.22] And I was candid and I said, well, it was tough because I don't know you very well
[00:09:51.22 - 00:09:53.14] and I don't know the team very well.
[00:09:53.14 - 00:09:55.09] And we got there in the end and
[00:09:55.09 - 00:09:58.16] we've got a bit of a blueprint of what we need to do to fix it and it'll be a
[00:09:58.16 - 00:10:02.16] starting point and probably I'll need to fine tune it and change it but we've made
[00:10:02.16 - 00:10:06.00] a start and he said you want me to tell you how it went?
[00:10:06.12 - 00:10:06.20] Hahaha
[00:10:06.20 - 00:10:11.02] I didn't know that this was going to be an ongoing process.
[00:10:11.02 - 00:10:12.13] And I said, yes, please.
[00:10:12.13 - 00:10:13.19] And so he said, well, you did.
[00:10:13.19 - 00:10:16.04] You did all of those things and you did well.
[00:10:16.04 - 00:10:20.11] But there was one point there where you put up some stats and some figures about
[00:10:20.11 - 00:10:22.15] what had gone on historically.
[00:10:23.01 - 00:10:26.06] And actually, you might have thrown some of the leaders that you're going to have
[00:10:26.06 - 00:10:29.07] to work with really closely under the bus when you did that.
[00:10:30.08 - 00:10:32.13] And I went, oh, no.
[00:10:32.13 - 00:10:34.16] And I knew I knew he was right.
[00:10:35.04 - 00:10:39.15] and because I could feel the tension in the room and my mind went back and I yeah
[00:10:39.23 - 00:10:47.05] and he said but don't worry we're gonna fix us and he sort of he kind of he could
[00:10:47.05 - 00:10:51.07] see I was shaking because I was I was wanting to do a good job and I was I was
[00:10:51.07 - 00:10:58.07] intentional about you know wanting to fix this problem and grow their culture and he
[00:10:58.07 - 00:11:00.02] said come on what we're gonna go and do
[00:11:00.11 - 00:11:02.05] is I'm going to point out who you need to talk to.
[00:11:02.05 - 00:11:06.01] You're just going to go and say, hey, I'm sorry if you feel like I threw you under the bus.
[00:11:06.01 - 00:11:09.06] That was a really rocky era and my apologies.
[00:11:09.06 - 00:11:12.22] And he said, just go around to da and he pointed out and he said, I'll be here,
[00:11:12.22 - 00:11:14.09] come back and talk to me afterwards.
[00:11:14.09 - 00:11:15.13] I'm in your team.
[00:11:15.15 - 00:11:17.02] We're on this journey.
[00:11:17.09 - 00:11:23.02] And so I went and literally did that, and it shifted the dynamic for me immediately.
[00:11:23.06 - 00:11:27.13] And then I learned that every time I did something, this would happen, but then
[00:11:27.13 - 00:11:31.13] every time he did something, he would come and say to me, how did it go?
[00:11:31.23 - 00:11:33.11] What could I do better?
[00:11:33.23 - 00:11:40.16] And so together we went on this journey, and he allowed me to give him feedback,
[00:11:40.16 - 00:11:43.12] which was awesome and...
[00:11:43.21 - 00:11:49.11] I became more and more and more open to really, really good, courageous conversations.
[00:11:49.12 - 00:11:52.04] Radical candor like Kim Scott calls it.
[00:11:52.12 - 00:11:58.13] When it's really radical, it lands hard, but it allows you to embrace it and learn.
[00:11:58.20 - 00:12:07.09] It's heartwarming and it must have been shocking, but the combination is so powerful.
[00:12:07.16 - 00:12:16.03] The shock with the hand holding, say it's alright, we all make mistakes.
[00:12:16.18 - 00:12:19.04] What are the elements of good feedback in your mind?
[00:12:19.11 - 00:12:23.08] Oh, I think it's simple.
[00:12:24.02 - 00:12:28.15] It is simple because the key elements, it needs to be really quick.
[00:12:29.09 - 00:12:34.01] Like if he'd left it till the next day, it would have festered for the others.
[00:12:34.16 - 00:12:40.22] It needs to be candid, so on point, not ruinous empathy, but really real.
[00:12:42.14 - 00:12:45.19] So it's got to cut right into the heart of the matter,
[00:12:45.19 - 00:12:48.19] which is normally that double edged sword thing.
[00:12:50.09 - 00:12:54.14] and I think you can gauge it by the ears of the receiver.
[00:12:55.01 - 00:13:01.10] Now bear in mind, I hadn't worked with him very long, so I hadn't built a close
[00:13:01.10 - 00:13:08.01] relationship with him, but boy, we got close really fast, because I knew he was
[00:13:08.01 - 00:13:14.06] in my team, and that he was gonna help me solution the fix, and then every time I
[00:13:14.06 - 00:13:15.22] got feedback, I knew that would happen.
[00:13:16.05 - 00:13:18.14] So quick, fast, on point.
[00:13:18.18 - 00:13:20.08] Does it need to be personal?
[00:13:20.16 - 00:13:21.10] Yes.
[00:13:21.15 - 00:13:28.01] Because I feel if you talk about a situation or a task as opposed to talk
[00:13:28.01 - 00:13:31.17] about the person, that's one.
[00:13:31.17 - 00:13:36.01] And secondly, if you talk about your feelings, like my feelings as an observer
[00:13:36.01 - 00:13:45.09] giving the feedback, I think when I do that, this puts me in a position of
[00:13:45.09 - 00:13:48.11] vulnerability because talking about feelings is vulnerable.
[00:13:48.11 - 00:13:49.07] Yeah.
[00:13:49.13 - 00:13:55.18] And by talking about a person specifically rather than a situation or a task requires
[00:13:55.21 - 00:13:56.20] courage.
[00:13:57.21 - 00:14:03.00] So I'm doubly exposed when I give that feedback if it's personal and if I share my feelings.
[00:14:03.22 - 00:14:10.18] So maybe it's also another ingredient of candid feedback.
[00:14:11.17 - 00:14:19.09] I often see articles where they talk about trust as checking the boxes.
[00:14:19.23 - 00:14:30.06] So taking care of people and having open communication channels and talking about,
[00:14:30.06 - 00:14:36.12] you know, putting the programs in place, but
[00:14:37.09 - 00:14:39.15] In my experience, it's never about that.
[00:14:39.16 - 00:14:46.19] It's about, like Patrick Lencioni says, it's about admitting weaknesses, admitting
[00:14:46.19 - 00:14:54.07] mistakes, being candid about how you feel and what's wrong.
[00:14:54.18 - 00:14:57.00] And it's really hard to do.
[00:14:57.17 - 00:15:00.06] I really love Brené Brown on this subject.
[00:15:00.06 - 00:15:01.13] She does a lovely little video.
[00:15:01.13 - 00:15:04.09] You know the difference between empathy and trust.
[00:15:05.12 - 00:15:07.06] Sorry, empathy and sympathy.
[00:15:07.06 - 00:15:11.02] It's really easy for us to find a place of sympathy for someone.
[00:15:11.06 - 00:15:16.16] But you have to dig deep to your own personal experience to find empathy.
[00:15:17.13 - 00:15:19.18] And when you use true empathy.
[00:15:20.14 - 00:15:25.03] and you can put yourself in their shoe and you can be alongside them in their
[00:15:25.03 - 00:15:26.16] vulnerability.
[00:15:26.16 - 00:15:29.20] That's when oxytocin, the neurochemical,
[00:15:29.20 - 00:15:34.01] the moral molecule as Paul Zak would call it, turns up.
[00:15:34.17 - 00:15:36.00] And it's airborne.
[00:15:36.00 - 00:15:40.07] So when we have it there, when we're able to be vulnerable with each other, that's
[00:15:40.07 - 00:15:42.15] when trust gets built.
[00:15:44.01 - 00:15:51.01] So I want to dive more into neuroscience, but also I want to add to what you said
[00:15:51.01 - 00:15:52.07] about Brené Brown.
[00:15:52.11 - 00:16:02.07] I love her teachings and how she's humane, direct, and very vulnerable about herself
[00:16:02.07 - 00:16:05.18] and how she communicates.
[00:16:06.04 - 00:16:09.23] So she says about sympathy versus empathy,
[00:16:12.03 - 00:16:17.03] looking at someone who's fallen in a well and saying, Oh, you poor thing.
[00:16:17.10 - 00:16:20.11] I hope someone comes over and rescues you.
[00:16:20.23 - 00:16:22.17] And empathy is like.
[00:16:22.19 - 00:16:30.22] you must be in pain all over your body and you must be scared and you must be feeling
[00:16:30.22 - 00:16:33.06] so lonely at this moment.
[00:16:33.06 - 00:16:34.23] It must be dark down there.
[00:16:35.08 - 00:16:42.16] And in her definition, I think empathy is feeling what the other person is feeling,
[00:16:44.00 - 00:16:52.12] which to me really explains how you need to understand human connection.
[00:16:53.23 - 00:16:55.23] It's feeling what the other person is feeling.
[00:16:55.23 - 00:16:58.00] It's not sitting in judgment.
[00:16:59.08 - 00:17:00.13] or observation.
[00:17:04.08 - 00:17:12.06] So, on to neuroscience, which is fascinating, creating a connection between...
[00:17:12.06 - 00:17:13.12] leadership and neuroscience.
[00:17:13.12 - 00:17:17.22] So one of the things I didn't know, I learned it from you, you said that
[00:17:17.22 - 00:17:23.11] oxytocin, which is a neurotransmitter, is airborne.
[00:17:23.11 - 00:17:24.08] Yeah.
[00:17:25.05 - 00:17:28.11] You can detect it in our blood as well, but you know, have you ever been in a room
[00:17:28.11 - 00:17:31.10] when a baby's just been born?
[00:17:31.10 - 00:17:32.05] Yeah?
[00:17:32.05 - 00:17:34.07] It's flooded with oxytocin.
[00:17:34.20 - 00:17:35.12] Mmm.
[00:17:36.15 - 00:17:42.08] It creates human connection, it creates a bond, but it is also what turns up in
[00:17:42.08 - 00:17:45.04] teams when they trust each other.
[00:17:45.04 - 00:17:52.08] So Paul Zak, he started experimenting ways to detect it when he was researching
[00:17:52.08 - 00:17:55.03] oxytocin or trying to find the moral molecule.
[00:17:55.07 - 00:17:57.10] And he got invited to a wedding in the south of England.
[00:17:57.10 - 00:18:01.06] It was a small wedding and I think they might have been neuroscientists as well.
[00:18:01.18 - 00:18:05.19] And he said, I'll come to your wedding from New York if I can test everyone's
[00:18:05.19 - 00:18:07.21] blood before and after the ceremony.
[00:18:08.03 - 00:18:11.17] And this story always sticks with me because of course the oxytocin levels
[00:18:11.17 - 00:18:12.17] spiked afterwards.
[00:18:12.17 - 00:18:14.20] He was able to detect it in their blood.
[00:18:14.20 - 00:18:19.00] But you know when you go to a wedding, and I was in one on the weekend actually, and
[00:18:19.00 - 00:18:23.09] you know that moment when the bride walks down the aisle, that moment of absolute
[00:18:23.09 - 00:18:28.14] vulnerability, I myself got the tears behind my eyes.
[00:18:29.16 - 00:18:32.19] And I could see the groom, welled up, everybody did.
[00:18:32.19 - 00:18:35.20] She did, it was a beautiful moment.
[00:18:36.18 - 00:18:37.21] Oxytocin.
[00:18:39.06 - 00:18:42.18] So how to use neuroscience when you work with leaders?
[00:18:42.23 - 00:18:44.11] Do you use it consciously?
[00:18:44.23 - 00:18:48.09] I do, I use it around four key ingredients.
[00:18:48.09 - 00:18:50.05] I call it your daily dose.
[00:18:50.05 - 00:18:55.23] So I think leaders need to understand this because in a way, if they think about
[00:18:55.23 - 00:19:01.10] everything they're doing in terms of the daily dose of neurochemicals that we need,
[00:19:01.10 - 00:19:06.05] and these neurochemicals have multiple applications, but if you think about these
[00:19:06.05 - 00:19:11.16] four neurochemicals and how they integrate with the way we work,
[00:19:11.22 - 00:19:16.01] you can see that the right balance of them is good for us.
[00:19:16.01 - 00:19:19.17] So dopamine, for example, that's the D in dose.
[00:19:19.17 - 00:19:22.06] I'm very cheesy, I like anagrams.
[00:19:22.07 - 00:19:25.18] So dopamine is a neurochemical that...
[00:19:26.03 - 00:19:27.20] It drives us to do things.
[00:19:27.20 - 00:19:29.19] It's an achievement neurochemical.
[00:19:29.19 - 00:19:33.15] They have multiple applications, these neurochemicals, but in relation to work,
[00:19:33.15 - 00:19:38.03] leaders need to understand that they need to give their team members achievable work.
[00:19:38.03 - 00:19:41.01] They need to coach and develop them so that they're at the right point in their
[00:19:41.01 - 00:19:44.23] career to do that achievable work, and they need to not overload them.
[00:19:46.06 - 00:19:50.08] So giving them the right amount of work so that they can actually achieve the
[00:19:50.08 - 00:19:54.13] outcomes, get that sense of achievement, drives them with dopamine, pulling them
[00:19:54.13 - 00:19:59.14] back when they start to work too long and too hard, and actually make sure they take
[00:19:59.14 - 00:20:05.00] right breaks and that they're working effectively is also a key understanding
[00:20:05.00 - 00:20:08.04] because you can drive someone with dopamine to the point where they become
[00:20:08.04 - 00:20:10.09] addicted to it.
[00:20:10.09 - 00:20:12.18] And that's when you get the workaholic.
[00:20:13.14 - 00:20:16.18] So they've got to understand the balance of dopamine.
[00:20:17.03 - 00:20:20.20] Oxytocin, that's a neurochemical responsible for trust, and I think that
[00:20:20.20 - 00:20:25.09] leaders set the tone for this if they themselves are vulnerable.
[00:20:25.17 - 00:20:31.20] and they build a culture of vulnerability where feedback is common and candid and
[00:20:31.20 - 00:20:35.23] frequent but done in a way that honours the status of those individuals so that
[00:20:35.23 - 00:20:38.18] people aren't exposed or made fools of.
[00:20:38.22 - 00:20:43.20] They're pulled into that inner sanctuary, that place of trust, and the leaders build
[00:20:43.20 - 00:20:45.06] it consistently.
[00:20:45.06 - 00:20:49.08] They'll avoid that blame culture.
[00:20:49.08 - 00:20:53.09] Serotonin, the neurochemical for romantic love.
[00:20:53.09 - 00:20:55.06] That's how we commonly know it.
[00:20:55.06 - 00:20:58.18] It also turns up in your brain when you're in focus flow.
[00:20:59.03 - 00:21:03.17] And in flow, that's a neurochemical state that Jamie Wheal and Steven Kotler
[00:21:03.17 - 00:21:08.08] researched with the flow genome project with Google and Microsoft.
[00:21:08.12 - 00:21:13.03] You get a dose of serotonin that opens up the pathways in your brain.
[00:21:13.03 - 00:21:17.08] So remember the last time you were in romantic love, and I think all of us can
[00:21:17.08 - 00:21:20.06] remember an experience like that.
[00:21:20.08 - 00:21:23.11] We literally become the best version of ourselves.
[00:21:23.11 - 00:21:24.14] We can't help it.
[00:21:24.14 - 00:21:26.01] Our pathways all open up.
[00:21:26.01 - 00:21:27.04] That's why.
[00:21:27.09 - 00:21:32.06] So we are firing on all cylinders and it's quite a delightful experience.
[00:21:32.06 - 00:21:33.17] It's very addictive.
[00:21:33.18 - 00:21:35.23] Some people get addicted to falling in love.
[00:21:35.23 - 00:21:38.14] But when we fall in love with another person,
[00:21:38.14 - 00:21:40.10] that’s designed to make us bond.
[00:21:41.01 - 00:21:44.03] Serotonin at work doesn't quite turn out the same, although it can do.
[00:21:44.03 - 00:21:46.13] People do fall in love at work, and I'm not talking about that.
[00:21:46.13 - 00:21:50.10] I'm talking about when you're in focus flow and serotonin's turning up in the
[00:21:50.10 - 00:21:54.23] team and everyone is in sync, and they love what they're doing because they love
[00:21:54.23 - 00:21:58.16] their roles, and they know what they need to do.
[00:21:58.18 - 00:22:01.04] So that's a key ingredient.
[00:22:01.08 - 00:22:06.22] And both oxytocin and serotonin are social bonding agents, and they're designed to
[00:22:06.22 - 00:22:08.17] actually make us work well in groups.
[00:22:08.17 - 00:22:12.18] We're designed to be in community and workplaces are communities.
[00:22:13.16 - 00:22:15.09] Final one is endorphins.
[00:22:15.09 - 00:22:17.07] Yeah, I was waiting for the fourth.
[00:22:17.07 - 00:22:20.10] Yeah, so they're the neuro cannabinoids, they're painkillers,
[00:22:20.10 - 00:22:22.15] they turn up when we exercise.
[00:22:22.17 - 00:22:25.10] If you've got a physical role they're going to turn up there, but the great news is
[00:22:25.10 - 00:22:28.22] they also turn up in your brain when you go into flow.
[00:22:28.22 - 00:22:31.22] When you go into focus flow you get a dose of
[00:22:32.22 - 00:22:38.17] dopamine and endorphins and in that state, an anandamide, which kind of acts like a
[00:22:38.17 - 00:22:43.12] bonding agent and suddenly you are focused on problem-solving and so actually work is
[00:22:43.12 - 00:22:44.07] good for your brain.
[00:22:44.07 - 00:22:48.18] There's some positive neurochemicals as long as you don't flick over into workaholism
[00:22:49.06 - 00:22:54.21] which will ultimately lead to burnout, but you stay looking after yourself and you've
[00:22:54.21 - 00:22:59.21] got the social neurochemicals as well which happen in collaborate flow then you
[00:22:59.21 - 00:23:03.02] are actually building positive mental health.
[00:23:03.07 - 00:23:08.00] And there's a strong co-relationship between highly engaged workforces and
[00:23:08.00 - 00:23:09.19] positive mental fitness.
[00:23:09.19 - 00:23:12.12] I've seen it, I've been in it, I've witnessed it.
[00:23:12.12 - 00:23:16.05] I know the difference it makes in the lives of the individuals that work there,
[00:23:16.05 - 00:23:19.14] their careers, the business that makes commercial sense.
[00:23:19.14 - 00:23:22.02] Plus it riffles out into the community.
[00:23:22.13 - 00:23:33.10] Have you seen the change of teaching neuroscience to your leaders?
[00:23:35.13 - 00:23:41.11] Have you seen the change as a result of understanding neuroscience or as a result
[00:23:41.11 - 00:23:48.05] of understanding themselves and becoming better leaders and then translating into
[00:23:50.02 - 00:23:52.07] your observations in neuroscience?
[00:23:52.14 - 00:23:58.18] I think it's a combination of a whole lot of factors for a leader.
[00:23:58.18 - 00:24:01.17] I think that's just one tool set.
[00:24:02.12 - 00:24:04.08] I think that alone is not enough.
[00:24:04.08 - 00:24:06.05] Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:07.11 - 00:24:13.16] Um, who are some of the leaders in neuroscience that we need to learn more
[00:24:13.16 - 00:24:16.03] from, that we need to read up on?
[00:24:16.03 - 00:24:21.12] Definitely Stephen Kotler and Jamie Wheal, who've done a lot of work in the flow space.
[00:24:22.08 - 00:24:29.16] I think Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is another absolute thought leader in that space.
[00:24:30.10 - 00:24:36.10] Brené Brown in terms of that culture of trust and vulnerability.
[00:24:36.10 - 00:24:39.00] Kim Scott on radical candor.
[00:24:39.12 - 00:24:39.20] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:39.20 - 00:24:45.00] Because what they do is practical and you walk away from reading their work or they
[00:24:45.00 - 00:24:51.12] share so much online for free that you can literally build it into your practice.
[00:24:52.02 - 00:24:56.18] You can absorb it online and then you can apply it straight away and that's what
[00:24:56.18 - 00:24:58.04] makes a difference.
[00:24:58.12 - 00:25:03.19] I think Matthew Townsend and his neuroscience work around sleep is also
[00:25:03.19 - 00:25:10.09] fundamental because as you work your way up the leadership chain you will be under
[00:25:10.09 - 00:25:16.03] more and more pressure and you need to become resilient yourself in order to
[00:25:16.03 - 00:25:18.03] create resilient cultures.
[00:25:18.18 - 00:25:23.16] The other thought leader I really like is Salim Ismail.
[00:25:24.09 - 00:25:29.19] He wrote Anti-Fragile, which is a really interesting piece of work around resilience.
[00:25:29.23 - 00:25:32.21] And the new science of becoming anti-fragile.
[00:25:32.21 - 00:25:37.01] And Nassim Taleb, sorry, not Salim Ismail.
[00:25:37.01 - 00:25:41.19] Salim is the guy who started up a university.
[00:25:41.19 - 00:25:42.16] Singularity University.
[00:25:42.16 - 00:25:48.12] Yeah, which is also a really great source of research and free resources.
[00:25:48.17 - 00:25:53.14] Yeah, but Nassim Taleb's work around both Black Swan, that accidents don't happen
[00:25:53.14 - 00:25:57.21] accidentally and actually we can check back and review how things went wrong in
[00:25:57.21 - 00:26:00.10] order to find out what we can do differently,
[00:26:00.19 - 00:26:04.08] which is a great principle for anti-fragile as well.
[00:26:04.08 - 00:26:09.17] That ability to bounce forward under pressure and to develop not just our IQ,
[00:26:09.17 - 00:26:15.21] but our EQ, and our AQ, and our SQ, which leaders have to be able to build.
[00:26:16.23 - 00:26:24.05] If we move on to leadership development, Sandy, I know you have a very practical
[00:26:24.05 - 00:26:27.00] framework, but also one which resonates with me.
[00:26:27.00 - 00:26:34.19] And you talk about leading self and leading others and leading the community
[00:26:34.19 - 00:26:35.21] in the business.
[00:26:37.04 - 00:26:38.08] Can you tell us more?
[00:26:38.15 - 00:26:41.10] Yeah, so I'm very passionate about this.
[00:26:41.18 - 00:26:48.02] I think that organizations need to articulate really clearly to their leaders
[00:26:48.02 - 00:26:51.07] how they want them to lead in those three key areas.
[00:26:51.07 - 00:26:56.04] Every leadership, every company should have a leadership development framework in
[00:26:56.04 - 00:26:59.13] place that says really clearly how they want them to lead around leading
[00:26:59.13 - 00:27:05.14] themselves, leading others, leading the business, and specifically in some key
[00:27:05.14 - 00:27:07.16] areas in each of those topics.
[00:27:08.05 - 00:27:12.12] When it comes to leading the business, obviously the key fundamentals of what is
[00:27:12.12 - 00:27:16.09] the commercial acumen you need to have to be a great leader in this environment,
[00:27:16.09 - 00:27:19.23] what is the strategic and business planning processes, the budgeting
[00:27:19.23 - 00:27:25.22] processes, the P&L, all of those kind of things, along with how is performance measured.
[00:27:25.22 - 00:27:29.13] Those are the ABCs and when I first started out as a leader, that was what I
[00:27:29.13 - 00:27:31.01] thought I needed to know.
[00:27:31.14 - 00:27:34.17] But I discovered that actually it's the soft skills.
[00:27:35.21 - 00:27:39.15] Even if you look at leading others, there's some really clear transferable
[00:27:39.15 - 00:27:44.01] skills that you can go and get training on around recruitment, development,
[00:27:44.03 - 00:27:50.14] inductions, orientations, career pathways, career development for your team, and then
[00:27:50.14 - 00:27:54.16] communication systems and processes, how to run effective meetings all the way
[00:27:54.16 - 00:28:00.07] through to communicating in town halls and being able to present on the organisation
[00:28:00.07 - 00:28:03.20] externally, and then courageous conversations.
[00:28:03.20 - 00:28:05.18] That's a key soft skill,
[00:28:05.18 - 00:28:09.21] from dealing with difficult people to coaching and developing others and then
[00:28:09.21 - 00:28:14.02] actually being able to have those tough conversations and good robust feedback all
[00:28:14.02 - 00:28:19.10] the way through to maybe having to set someone free if they're not working out
[00:28:19.10 - 00:28:20.16] ultimately.
[00:28:20.16 - 00:28:23.16] But you've probably got a people and culture team that will support you through
[00:28:23.16 - 00:28:27.00] that process and that's the last case resort.
[00:28:27.20 - 00:28:32.06] But the key area is actually leading yourself.
[00:28:32.06 - 00:28:34.07] That's where it should start.
[00:28:34.10 - 00:28:39.05] I just did a leadership development framework for WOOP, the food box company
[00:28:39.05 - 00:28:43.00] here in New Zealand, and they literally put that as a top.
[00:28:43.02 - 00:28:48.08] Being able to lead yourself, lead others, and then lead the business, which I
[00:28:48.08 - 00:28:51.00] thought was a really nice way to put it.
[00:28:51.10 - 00:28:53.20] And leading yourself, what does that mean?
[00:28:53.20 - 00:28:56.19] It means actually understanding how to be resilient.
[00:28:56.19 - 00:28:58.18] What are you doing to look after yourself
[00:28:58.18 - 00:29:02.14] so that you're showing up and bringing the energy into the room, that
[00:29:02.14 - 00:29:09.07] you are able to be there for your team, that you actually have good mechanisms in
[00:29:09.07 - 00:29:14.20] place to take breaks, to look after your own mental fitness and that you're on a
[00:29:14.20 - 00:29:20.03] journey of doing that, that you sleep well, that you eat well, that you focus
[00:29:20.03 - 00:29:25.17] well, that you're actually able to take time off and go and do things for yourself.
[00:29:26.16 - 00:29:29.16] And then your values, what are your values and how do they align with the
[00:29:29.16 - 00:29:30.11] organization?
[00:29:30.11 - 00:29:32.00] And what if you hit a value conflict?
[00:29:32.00 - 00:29:32.21] How do you deal with it?
[00:29:32.21 - 00:29:37.10] Where's a safe space for you to process that and actually resolve that?
[00:29:37.15 - 00:29:41.15] And then also, how are you going to be as a leader?
[00:29:41.15 - 00:29:44.03] What kind of legacy do you want to lead?
[00:29:44.03 - 00:29:46.15] And how does that organization need you to lead?
[00:29:46.15 - 00:29:47.23] What is the leadership culture there?
[00:29:47.23 - 00:29:49.13] Is it servant leader?
[00:29:51.07 - 00:29:56.07] All the way through to Patrick Lencioni's building cultures of trust and building
[00:29:56.07 - 00:30:01.06] the blocks around understanding the neurochemistry of leadership, but also the
[00:30:01.06 - 00:30:06.13] practical skills around showing up every day as a leader and leading a legacy in
[00:30:06.13 - 00:30:08.14] the lives of your teams.
[00:30:08.14 - 00:30:12.17] Because we all remember those amazing leaders that could give us good feedback,
[00:30:12.17 - 00:30:17.08] that were there for us, that could connect with us, that knew how to practice real
[00:30:17.08 - 00:30:21.07] deep empathy, and they didn't rescue us.
[00:30:21.16 - 00:30:24.23] They helped us step up and grow our careers.
[00:30:25.08 - 00:30:30.16] How do you help someone discover their own leadership style, their own comfort zone
[00:30:30.16 - 00:30:32.02] when it comes to leading?
[00:30:32.03 - 00:30:35.16] Because there's too many examples out there.
[00:30:35.16 - 00:30:40.07] Yeah, so there's a variety of components.
[00:30:40.07 - 00:30:45.07] There are a lot of different tools you can use, all the way from your Working Genius,
[00:30:45.07 - 00:30:51.00] from Patrick Lencioni to DiSC or HBDI.
[00:30:51.12 - 00:30:53.01] Yeah, there's lots of those different tools.
[00:30:53.01 - 00:30:56.10] And I think they all have a little bit of value that they can add and they can give
[00:30:56.10 - 00:31:00.04] you different lenses to look through so that you can understand the way that
[00:31:00.04 - 00:31:03.15] you're gonna work with your team, but also understand yourself
[00:31:03.15 - 00:31:07.07] and see objectively how you're coming across.
[00:31:07.07 - 00:31:12.04] I think 360 tools are really valuable too because at the right point in someone's
[00:31:12.04 - 00:31:15.12] career they need to be getting that feedback from not just their manager,
[00:31:15.12 - 00:31:19.13] their self-assessment and their team's assessment and their peers assessment to
[00:31:19.13 - 00:31:23.19] create a space where they can look and see the areas that they need to grow in and
[00:31:23.19 - 00:31:24.15] develop in.
[00:31:24.15 - 00:31:27.01] and get feedback from other perspectives.
[00:31:27.01 - 00:31:32.02] And then there's also a really good culture tool that can measure what's going
[00:31:32.02 - 00:31:33.10] on in their team.
[00:31:33.10 - 00:31:37.14] Like I talked about at Best Workplaces program, that was an employee engagement
[00:31:37.14 - 00:31:41.13] survey, and I think they need to be measuring that and seeing that and getting
[00:31:41.13 - 00:31:43.15] that anonymous feedback as well.
[00:31:43.15 - 00:31:47.06] Because sometimes there's things that people just aren't brave enough to tell them.
[00:31:49.04 - 00:31:56.16] Um, I personally found more about my own leadership style in, uh, Entrepreneurs’
[00:31:56.16 - 00:32:01.14] Organization, EO, and I know you've worked with a few people who are members of EO.
[00:32:02.18 - 00:32:10.17] And to me, it was purely because I, as a CEO, I ended up reporting in someone
[00:32:10.17 - 00:32:16.06] else's board to another, um, to the team leader.
[00:32:16.14 - 00:32:21.07] And as a CEO, I never had the opportunity, or as long as I was CEO, I never had the
[00:32:21.07 - 00:32:22.19] opportunity to report someone else.
[00:32:22.21 - 00:32:23.13] And
[00:32:25.18 - 00:32:30.06] I did that a few times and every time, every committee I was serving in, I was
[00:32:30.06 - 00:32:39.19] observing the leadership style and I was picking up one or two things from each leader.
[00:32:39.21 - 00:32:44.20] From one leader I can remember, I picked up a question which is, how does that
[00:32:44.20 - 00:32:45.20] sound to you?
[00:32:45.20 - 00:32:47.20] How does that sink in with you?
[00:32:47.20 - 00:32:49.14] How does that resonate with you?
[00:32:50.03 - 00:32:53.19] He was throwing an idea and he was just, he was not asking for my thoughts.
[00:32:53.19 - 00:32:56.03] He was asking for how this was resonating.
[00:32:56.09 - 00:33:04.19] And I felt, you know, this, this triggered empathy, um, in, in so many ways.
[00:33:04.19 - 00:33:10.15] And I, I basically, uh, ripped and ripped off and duplicated it.
[00:33:10.15 - 00:33:12.01] I R and D'd it.
[00:33:12.16 - 00:33:19.22] Um, and similarly with other leaders, I was looking at one or two things
[00:33:20.04 - 00:33:22.11] from their leadership style and coping it.
[00:33:22.14 - 00:33:29.16] But that's the only way I found I could develop my own leadership style because I
[00:33:29.16 - 00:33:40.10] was fed with Western literature about leadership with role models being Steve
[00:33:40.10 - 00:33:45.10] Jobs and Bill Gates and all that, being in the tech industry myself.
[00:33:45.21 - 00:33:49.14] And these were for me the wrong role models in many ways.
[00:33:50.18 - 00:33:57.19] And I remember when I was teaching, so my role was a leader of students.
[00:33:58.16 - 00:34:07.20] I thought that, you know, this omnipotent role of a leader was one that knew everything.
[00:34:07.20 - 00:34:10.07] And so I felt I had to know everything.
[00:34:10.07 - 00:34:13.19] So when I made mistakes, I couldn't own up to them.
[00:34:14.09 - 00:34:16.00] And that made me look silly.
[00:34:19.03 - 00:34:22.13] And so it took me a long time to
[00:34:22.18 - 00:34:33.00] do away with this initial set of role models, which I read up on from, again,
[00:34:33.18 - 00:34:42.00] Western male leaders into ones that were much more closer to what I feel my own
[00:34:42.00 - 00:34:42.19] leadership style is.
[00:34:42.19 - 00:34:44.10] So it's a lot of work.
[00:34:45.22 - 00:34:47.16] It's a good to great leader, isn't it?
[00:34:47.16 - 00:34:55.11] The leader who can be humble, who can actually grow the careers of those around
[00:34:55.11 - 00:35:01.22] them, that takes the time to access that deep empathy and can be vulnerable with
[00:35:01.22 - 00:35:03.21] their own team.
[00:35:04.09 - 00:35:09.13] And that builds a culture of vulnerability and real and authenticity.
[00:35:09.13 - 00:35:13.17] And when you have that, you get the human factor turning up.
[00:35:14.10 - 00:35:24.16] Um, and we have very few to even zero role models like that in the press, uh, in the
[00:35:24.16 - 00:35:32.01] public sphere, uh, because for some reason, these are not, uh, these cannot be
[00:35:32.01 - 00:35:38.19] associated with a successful go getter, uh, who, you know, uh, builds amazing
[00:35:38.19 - 00:35:42.06] technology or who, um,
[00:35:42.14 - 00:35:47.00] scales their business or who makes a quick exit or whatever.
[00:35:47.10 - 00:35:52.11] We don't have role models of servant leaders, of humble leaders, of leaders who
[00:35:52.11 - 00:35:55.04] take you by the hand when you've made a mistake.
[00:35:56.15 - 00:35:58.04] These are not the leaders out there.
[00:35:58.04 - 00:36:04.00] And this was, to be honest, my motivation for starting the podcast because I wanted
[00:36:04.00 - 00:36:11.01] to surface those leaders and have more people become aware of what
[00:36:12.07 - 00:36:17.03] I think real leadership is about which is becoming a leader or helping others become
[00:36:17.03 - 00:36:21.08] leaders in your absence.
[00:36:24.09 - 00:36:27.21] So enough about me.
[00:36:27.21 - 00:36:37.11] I would like to hear more about culture, Sandy, and what makes you passionate about
[00:36:37.11 - 00:36:39.04] culture, company culture?
[00:36:40.08 - 00:36:43.17] Well I know that when you get a positive company culture, and bear in mind only the
[00:36:43.17 - 00:36:50.08] top 20% and they're now saying the top 17% positive, you know, would really get up
[00:36:50.08 - 00:36:56.10] there in terms of being able to win awards for having a fully engaged and enabled culture.
[00:36:56.12 - 00:37:02.13] But I see the products of that when I go and work in organisations that do that well.
[00:37:03.09 - 00:37:07.06] And I had the chance to do that at Leading Edge or to be part of that journey and to
[00:37:07.06 - 00:37:10.16] observe it from the engine room.
[00:37:10.16 - 00:37:15.16] And then I also got to see it at IBM when I was working across multiple cultures.
[00:37:15.16 - 00:37:20.13] And then I get to see that inside my clients that achieved that difficult benchmark.
[00:37:20.13 - 00:37:21.22] And it is a journey.
[00:37:22.04 - 00:37:23.14] There's no silver bullet to get there.
[00:37:23.14 - 00:37:28.00] You have to measure, remeasure using a culture tool.
[00:37:28.00 - 00:37:31.03] And then you have to actually take on board the tough learnings and then you've
[00:37:31.03 - 00:37:33.05] got to do a programme of work that's
[00:37:33.05 - 00:37:35.08] related to those tough learnings.
[00:37:35.08 - 00:37:41.13] So it's not easy but what I see in those organizations is the leaders growing their
[00:37:41.13 - 00:37:47.05] careers and I see that the people are growing their careers and I see the
[00:37:47.05 - 00:37:49.00] spin-off of the
[00:37:49.01 - 00:37:51.22] the side effects of that in the positive mental health.
[00:37:51.22 - 00:37:54.16] And I think the two are inextricably linked.
[00:37:54.18 - 00:37:59.05] And the longer I work in this field, the more I think that given that mental
[00:37:59.05 - 00:38:02.20] distress now is running at an all time high, and the data tells us through the
[00:38:02.20 - 00:38:08.00] Resilience Institute that definitely one in three, if not one in two, are gonna
[00:38:08.00 - 00:38:11.02] experience mental distress in the course of their lives.
[00:38:11.02 - 00:38:15.18] If they're working for an organization that has got a fully engaged culture, and
[00:38:15.18 - 00:38:17.04] that top 17%,
[00:38:17.04 - 00:38:19.12] they are going to have the resources
[00:38:19.12 - 00:38:25.11] and the support that they need to actually resolve that quickly or to function as
[00:38:25.11 - 00:38:28.07] well as they possibly can in that environment.
[00:38:29.04 - 00:38:31.22] Because in there is immunity of support.
[00:38:32.19 - 00:38:37.20] And that, I was going to say the key to that is actually leaders knowing how to
[00:38:37.20 - 00:38:42.01] balance performance with care, which is a fine line.
[00:38:43.01 - 00:38:46.19] Good leaders care about their people, but they also need to get them to perform.
[00:38:46.19 - 00:38:50.21] And the skills to be able to do that and to be able to understand how to deal with
[00:38:50.21 - 00:38:54.06] complex situations have to be taught.
[00:38:54.08 - 00:38:56.03] It's not obvious.
[00:38:56.11 - 00:38:59.00] How do you instill a sense of ownership?
[00:39:00.10 - 00:39:04.06] So of course you have to take care of your people but you have to ask your people to
[00:39:04.06 - 00:39:05.10] take care of the business.
[00:39:05.10 - 00:39:06.19] How do you do the latter?
[00:39:08.09 - 00:39:11.06] Well, I think if you're looking after your people and they're proud of the
[00:39:11.06 - 00:39:15.23] organization and you've got the key ingredients right and the culture is
[00:39:15.23 - 00:39:20.05] positive and strong, they'll have that sense of ownership because they'll feel
[00:39:20.05 - 00:39:21.21] proud to be part of it.
[00:39:22.00 - 00:39:24.08] I don't think you can superimpose it.
[00:39:24.23 - 00:39:26.17] I think it comes from within.
[00:39:27.07 - 00:39:30.08] It's intrinsic, like motivation.
[00:39:31.11 - 00:39:33.14] There's that side which is...
[00:39:39.02 - 00:39:45.08] people feeling the need to reciprocate because you've taken good care of them and
[00:39:45.08 - 00:39:50.17] you've given them autonomy and you've given them the space to be themselves and
[00:39:50.17 - 00:39:52.01] to do great work.
[00:39:52.04 - 00:39:57.19] And there's also a part which has to do with giving them the tools to act like owners.
[00:39:58.09 - 00:40:04.13] And one of my favorite books there is the great game of business.
[00:40:04.13 - 00:40:05.20] Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:05.20 - 00:40:12.07] which basically says, make people aware of finances.
[00:40:12.07 - 00:40:17.22] What does it mean to turn a profit for $1 of revenue?
[00:40:17.22 - 00:40:20.04] How much profit is a business generating?
[00:40:20.14 - 00:40:25.14] And then the second one is, well, now how does this apply to our business?
[00:40:26.16 - 00:40:33.21] And the third one is, can you make people responsible for leading indicators,
[00:40:34.11 - 00:40:37.22] sales leads, stock time,
[00:40:42.07 - 00:40:49.05] warehouse issues or whatever else that lead to a profit?
[00:40:49.09 - 00:40:54.21] So how can you make them responsible for these metrics which then translate into profitability?
[00:40:55.18 - 00:41:02.15] And it's a really good way to let people know how their role connects to the vision
[00:41:02.15 - 00:41:08.11] or the strategy of the business and how it actually generates revenue and how it
[00:41:08.11 - 00:41:09.19] minimizes cost.
[00:41:09.19 - 00:41:15.11] And then when they actually understand, people feel like they're included, they're
[00:41:15.11 - 00:41:20.09] involved, they're being developed, and then they're able to grow within that.
[00:41:20.09 - 00:41:22.14] Hmm.
[00:41:22.14 - 00:41:23.14] Absolutely.
[00:41:24.08 - 00:41:33.00] Um, Sandy, as we wrap, um, I meant to ask you about this game I love to play with,
[00:41:33.00 - 00:41:37.00] with guests, and I know you love to play with your clients, which is Two Truths and
[00:41:37.00 - 00:41:42.05] One Lie, uh, because it's a great way of getting to know you a little better.
[00:41:43.10 - 00:41:48.03] So what are Two Truths and One Lie in no particular order about you?
[00:41:48.18 - 00:41:53.05] So a fun fact, and I often say this when I'm running a workshop, is I introduce
[00:41:53.05 - 00:41:55.00] myself with my nickname.
[00:41:55.00 - 00:41:56.08] So this is a fun fact.
[00:41:56.08 - 00:41:58.10] My nickname is Mama Trampel.
[00:41:59.05 - 00:42:05.02] Don't Google it, though, because there's also a porn star called Mama Trampel.
[00:42:05.02 - 00:42:06.11] I'm a roller skater.
[00:42:06.21 - 00:42:08.20] I grew up roller skating.
[00:42:09.01 - 00:42:11.02] My daughter became a roller skater.
[00:42:11.02 - 00:42:15.21] And I also like to deep sea dive.
[00:42:16.12 - 00:42:20.02] I'm quite a physical person, I like getting out in the environment.
[00:42:20.05 - 00:42:22.19] So if I would guess the lie would be the third one.
[00:42:23.17 - 00:42:25.12] How did you do this so fast?
[00:42:27.06 - 00:42:33.17] Well, the first one, the first one you said about the porn star and I knew there
[00:42:33.17 - 00:42:37.20] was a story behind it and you knew about the story so you could tell it comfortably.
[00:42:37.20 - 00:42:47.02] And the second one you said about your daughter, so it wasn't just yourself, you know.
[00:42:47.12 - 00:42:52.07] But then the third one, I knew you were into hiking but then I thought maybe she's
[00:42:52.07 - 00:42:55.01] not into deep sea diving.
[00:42:56.05 - 00:43:00.16] Which you must get amazing opportunities to do that in New Zealand, right?
[00:43:00.16 - 00:43:03.01] There must be coral reefs around there.
[00:43:03.01 - 00:43:07.18] I have dived once off the Great Barrier Reef, and I hated it.
[00:43:07.18 - 00:43:09.06] It was terrifying.
[00:43:09.20 - 00:43:14.14] Not only did you have to wear a suit to stop the nasties from getting in and
[00:43:14.14 - 00:43:21.07] biting you, I was surrounded by sharks and all sorts of venomous creatures and I
[00:43:21.07 - 00:43:23.03] couldn't wait to get out of the water.
[00:43:23.03 - 00:43:27.06] Not to mention the fact that they tell you before you go under and do a deep sea dive
[00:43:27.06 - 00:43:33.09] that if you hold your breath too long you will probably asphyxiate.
[00:43:33.09 - 00:43:40.05] And so the whole dive surrounded by these beautiful, colourful fishes, I was terrified.
[00:43:42.10 - 00:43:42.21] So I don't like...
[00:43:42.21 - 00:43:45.08] Don't do this at home.
[00:43:45.08 - 00:43:46.02] Yeah.
[00:43:46.22 - 00:43:47.23] Wonderful.
[00:43:48.03 - 00:43:55.12] So, um, Sandy, when, when you, uh, encounter a leader who is not intentional
[00:43:55.12 - 00:44:01.15] about their culture, what do you like to, to whisper to them?
[00:44:01.15 - 00:44:06.03] What do we need to be more, um, thoughtful?
[00:44:06.03 - 00:44:08.18] What do we need to rethink about culture more?
[00:44:09.20 - 00:44:14.10] So generally speaking, if I encounter a leader who's not intentional about
[00:44:14.10 - 00:44:22.03] culture, I would whisper to them that leadership can be lonely.
[00:44:24.01 - 00:44:28.07] And I wonder what your people think of you.
[00:44:29.02 - 00:44:30.19] I wonder what you don't know.
[00:44:31.13 - 00:44:35.20] And quietly, most of them are worried about that.
[00:44:39.01 - 00:44:40.16] That's so powerful.
[00:44:42.00 - 00:44:47.07] And you did almost whisper it as you would to someone's ear.
[00:44:47.07 - 00:44:51.01] And I think it goes deep.
[00:44:51.14 - 00:44:53.08] And what if you didn't have to lead alone?
[00:44:53.08 - 00:44:54.22] What if it could be different?
[00:44:56.00 - 00:44:56.22] Amazing.
[00:44:58.02 - 00:45:04.02] It reminds me actually of when we built the first leadership framework at Leading Edge.
[00:45:04.02 - 00:45:08.00] I had the wonderful opportunity of going back and building it after running the
[00:45:08.00 - 00:45:12.12] Best Workplaces program and I got to hire an L&D manager, an industrial
[00:45:12.12 - 00:45:17.00] psychologist, so I can't claim to building that framework all on my own.
[00:45:17.00 - 00:45:17.18] But...
[00:45:19.07 - 00:45:25.17] I came across this fundamental internal values conflict in myself where I'd grown
[00:45:25.17 - 00:45:30.20] up in the Pentecostal church, I wasn't in part of that movement anymore, I didn't
[00:45:30.20 - 00:45:38.23] believe in that anymore, but I still had this weird internal value in me that came
[00:45:38.23 - 00:45:43.10] from that world where, from a religious perspective...
[00:45:44.09 - 00:45:48.03] humankind is not capable of leading themselves.
[00:45:48.03 - 00:45:51.20] In fact, if you look around the planet, you can see many examples of how we're not.
[00:45:52.00 - 00:45:55.01] But we actually need a transcendent higher power.
[00:45:56.01 - 00:45:57.16] And I thought, well, hang on.
[00:45:57.16 - 00:46:00.15] If I'm sitting with that, that's not actually helpful.
[00:46:01.20 - 00:46:02.20] That's not helping me.
[00:46:02.20 - 00:46:04.13] And how many religions believe that?
[00:46:04.13 - 00:46:09.22] And I looked across all the religions and many of them fundamentally instill that
[00:46:10.21 - 00:46:11.23] into their...
[00:46:12.12 - 00:46:14.22] congregations and their followers.
[00:46:16.14 - 00:46:20.20] And I had to kind of weed it out of myself and go, it's not true.
[00:46:22.13 - 00:46:29.16] Actually people are inherently able to choose to have a growth mindset.
[00:46:31.03 - 00:46:39.15] So people can choose to be effective leader if they choose to.
[00:46:39.15 - 00:46:41.08] It's not about good or bad.
[00:46:42.06 - 00:46:46.23] And I wondered to myself, well, I'm probably in this unique position where I'm
[00:46:46.23 - 00:46:51.08] looking at it at a very fundamental level, and I had to kind of deal with that
[00:46:51.08 - 00:46:52.21] internal conflict.
[00:46:53.01 - 00:47:00.02] And I wonder how that influences people in those tough times when I've seen many
[00:47:00.02 - 00:47:02.16] amazing leaders crack under pressure.
[00:47:03.02 - 00:47:07.08] You know, they've either burnt out or they've gone down a pathway they didn't want to.
[00:47:07.11 - 00:47:11.03] They've had an affair or they've done something that actually they never
[00:47:11.03 - 00:47:14.23] intended to do, but they cracked under the pressure.
[00:47:15.05 - 00:47:16.14] And I wonder if...
[00:47:18.06 - 00:47:21.20] If they had that space where they didn't have to lead alone, where they were
[00:47:21.20 - 00:47:25.22] supported and encouraged, and they could grow and develop those skills.
[00:47:25.22 - 00:47:30.16] That's one of the things I love about EO, is it creates a safe space.
[00:47:30.16 - 00:47:32.07] Because leadership's tough.
[00:47:33.21 - 00:47:36.11] But it's also a very, very valuable journey.
[00:47:37.03 - 00:47:41.22] And it also reminds me that we should lead with love and not fear.
[00:47:44.10 - 00:47:46.16] Love of being ourselves and...
[00:47:46.20 - 00:47:52.06] without the fear of judgment, failure of not being good enough.
[00:47:53.05 - 00:47:56.17] And with that, I'd like to thank you, Sandy.
[00:47:56.19 - 00:48:04.09] Um, we could maybe go on for another episode, but I think it's time we wrap.
[00:48:04.16 - 00:48:06.11] I'd like to keep these short.
[00:48:06.13 - 00:48:15.01] Uh, and thank you for your, uh, your insights on neuroscience, your
[00:48:16.05 - 00:48:24.23] wisdom of how you train your leaders, your stories of compassion and of learning,
[00:48:25.10 - 00:48:26.18] learning the hard way.
[00:48:28.18 - 00:48:39.15] Um, and, uh, yeah, I hope more leaders lead from a place of compassion and love,
[00:48:39.15 - 00:48:40.17] but not fear.
[00:48:41.13 - 00:48:42.03] Yeah, I agree.
[00:48:42.03 - 00:48:49.15] Cultures of growth and love and compassion create really amazing environments that
[00:48:49.15 - 00:48:52.08] are commercially sensible as well.
[00:48:55.04 - 00:48:59.20] And with that, thank you for everyone listening.
[00:49:00.16 - 00:49:05.14] If you want to keep in touch and not miss any of the next episodes, you know you
[00:49:05.14 - 00:49:07.16] need to hit that subscribe button.
[00:49:08.12 - 00:49:13.18] And I always love feedback and learning, so don't forget to tell us what you think
[00:49:13.18 - 00:49:23.01] by emailing rethink{rethinkculture.co and keep leading with love and not fear.
[00:49:23.01 - 00:49:24.11] Thank you so much, Andreas.
[00:49:24.11 - 00:49:26.05] What an honor to be part of this.
[00:49:26.05 - 00:49:27.01] Thank you.