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The Moment explores the pivotal moments that changed the lives and careers of the world’s leading CEOs and defined their leadership journeys.
Claire Blake (00:04):
From World 50, this is The Moment where we explore the pivotal moments that changed the lives and careers of the world's leading CEOs and defined their leadership journeys. I'm your host, Claire Blake. Today we're talking to Andrea Young, president and CEO of Grameen America, former CEO of Avon and board director at Apple and Wayfair.
Andrea Jung (00:26):
I didn't want a single person to say really, really where should my loyalty lie because I think that ends up being distracting, energy-draining, away from driving results was just what the company did to do.
Claire Blake (00:37):
The year was 1998. Andrea Young was poised to take the corner office at Avon, the beauty and cosmetics company that had recently celebrated its centennial. But when Avon's board appointed another CEO candidate, Andrea would face a decision that required her to rebalance her personal ambitions of leadership growth with her passion for a corporate mission she loved. It's a moment that reflects Andrea's loyalty, grit, and long-term vision, and ultimately what helped her become the longest serving female chief executive in the Fortune 500. In this episode, Andrea takes us through what it means to follow your compass, not your clock.
(01:09):
You had a signature lipstick shade at Avon that was President's Red. How did you choose that shade? Was there pressure to choose that shade or that was like a natural shade for you?
Andrea Jung (01:22):
The actual real backstory on that is a pretty fun one. When I was in the retailing business in my younger days, Estée Lauder herself was, when she was still alive, still doing visits to stores. And I was working as a senior merchandise manager at I. Magnin in Union Square. And it was one of those days when the Lauder company was coming to do a visit with a personal appearance with Estée Lauder herself. And so we met and I welcomed her at the very front of the store and she just pulled me aside and she said, "Come with me." And she took me behind the counter, wiped off my lipstick, which at that time was probably more of a peachy pink color. And she pulled out a Lauder at that time, red, and she put it on me herself. And she said, "With your skin tone and your hair, this is the color you should wear for the rest of your life." So it was personal advice from Estée Lauder.
(02:19):
So I wore that lipstick. And then when I went to Avon, of course, I had to wear Avon lipstick, but we didn't have exactly that shade. So we took it to the lab and recreated the shade and they named it up at the lab President's Red. And I've worn that since. I get to tell a fun story about the inspiration, a beauty founder on my career that Estée Lauder had herself, but including my signature look.
Claire Blake (02:46):
That is amazing. Your first job was waitressing at a lobster restaurant doing kitchen detail until 2:00 AM. So I think the logical question is, can you still eat lobster after that experience?
Andrea Jung (02:58):
I did have a job at very famous seafood and lobster restaurant on the wharf in Boston called Anthony's Pier 4. It is no longer there anymore, but it was a famous destination tourist spot. It was known for lobsters. So I've served four and five pound lobsters to a group of 10 people from Texas who just wanted the biggest lobster that we could find in the tank. They were absolutely not going to hear anything about actually if it's a smaller lobster, it tastes better, but it took me a while after that to actually eat lobster again.
Claire Blake (03:35):
What made you pivot from potentially going to law school? I mean, you were an English literature major to ending up in retail.
Andrea Jung (03:42):
Coming out of Princeton with an English major, I actually wanted to get a job in journalism. I thought that Connie Chung, who was the only Asian American woman to have broken through to the top in her field, was a role model. And it's interesting because you really only aspire to what you see. And there were no women CEOs at the time, no women at the top of the C-suite echelon. Connie Chung was someone who looked like me, who had the same kind of background and had broken through in journalism. I was promptly turned down from a job at the Boston Globe. So taking that rejection, I was offered a job at Bloomingdale's in retail, marketing and merchandising. Friends of mine who were the sons of Don Fisher, who started and owned The Gap, had graduated from Princeton and gone into the Bloomingdale's training program on their way, if you would, to long careers that they held at The Gap.
(04:36):
But they said it was an incredible training program. And if you really wanted to get on-the-job, immediate management training, it was a great program. So that is how I ended up taking a very different departure than I had originally thought.
Claire Blake (04:49):
Frankly, you've been an instrumental leader at some of the most influential global companies in the world for the past couple of decades, really, Andrea. I mean, you were one of the first women to lead a specific Fortune 500 company. You've been on the board of Apple since 2008, vice chair of Unilever since 2021. But I want to take us back to 1993 for a minute when you first joined Avon because I remember hearing an incredible story about your first interview and seeing a plaque with four footprints.
Andrea Jung (05:17):
I had the opportunity to interview for a marketing job at Avon in 1993. I was in the office of then CEO and he had to step out for a minute. Behind his desk where he had been sitting was a plaque and it simply had four footprints. It was a barefoot ape and then a barefoot man, and then a wingtipped man's shoe and then a high heeled pump, and these were footprints in the sand. And across the four footprints, it said the evolution of leadership. And this was 1993, and there were no women in the top spots. So when he came back into the office, I said, "I just do have to ask you before we start again, that plaque behind your desk. I mean, do you really believe that?" And this was a leader ahead of his time.
(06:05):
And he said, "I really do believe it. Today we have millions of Avon representatives around the world. All of our customers are women, and yet I'm the eighth CEO and they've all been men. So someday a woman should lead this company." I hadn't even gotten a job offer yet, let alone any kind of aspiration to be that CEO. But as life would have it, after I did become the CEO of Avon, I got a little present delivered to the office, and lo and behold, it was that plaque. So it does sit behind my desk now and lots of memories back to that time.
Claire Blake (06:43):
That's such a beautiful story. And it is completely wild to think about that vision in '93 and to put it so boldly on a plaque behind this was Jim, yes?
Andrea Jung (06:53):
Yes, it was Jim Preston.
Claire Blake (06:54):
Which is remarkable. Kind of fast forward a few years, you do join the company, let's say '98, I'll go to that. You were on your way to become that first woman CEO of Avon in its 100 plus year history. And frankly, there was a lot of media attention. People are abuzzed with the idea that this is going to be the moment when a woman going to take the helm of a company that specializes in women's products, just as everything we're talking about. But suddenly the rug gets pulled out and someone else becomes CEO, not you, not a woman. Tell me about when you found out that someone else had been named for that top job.
Andrea Jung (07:29):
I had been told that in short order I would be getting the job and the company was going through some external challenges. The environment was difficult. There were devaluations of the dollar. I mean, some things never change and the board made a decision to go left instead of right and actually appoint one of the board members who had been a former CEO. He was 53. I mean, he was just in the early part of what would hopefully be for the board a long tenure. So it meant I really was being passed over for the job. And it was probably one of the most important inflection points for me as a person as well as for me as a professional. And I have learned a tremendous amount from that moment.
Claire Blake (08:14):
What was your immediate reaction? I mean, how did you feel about that?
Andrea Jung (08:17):
When they told me that, my immediate thoughts were, "Well, then I should probably leave." I mean, I think it's a natural thing to think about. While on the one hand, I never came to Avon for that corner office and I didn't have just a beeline ambition to become the CEO. Once you've been told that that's the job that you're going to have, I mean, there is that expectation. And then more importantly, that aspiration that, "Hey, listen, if I'm able to do this, maybe I should do it someplace else. Maybe this just isn't the place for me."
Claire Blake (08:52):
Right. And that someplace else existed. I mean, you did get other job offers at the time. So it actually has me thinking in this podcast, we talked to CEOs about the pivotal moments in their lives and careers. And while not getting the CEO job in 1998 was actually a moment in itself, I do want to understand more about your decision to stay afterwards. Why did you choose to stay?
Andrea Jung (09:11):
I had received, because it was all over the press then that a woman was passed over, that this individual got the job instead. I received two CEO job offers, and one was a retailer and one was a very large brand. And it was obviously, on the one hand, tempting because it wasn't, "Let's wait." I mean, they were right there and I felt like I could do the job. But I did have a mentor in that moment who said to me, "You know what? Follow your compass, not your clock."
(09:42):
And that single piece of advice was something that I really ruminated on for a few days. And it was very, very career changing and life changing for me because in that deep dive, I realized that I really wasn't there in the company to get a specific job. I was there to help the enterprise. I loved the mission of the company. I loved the people in the company, and it was a difficult time, and I felt loyal to the team, and I felt like this is when they needed me the most.
(10:11):
I also felt like the purpose of the company was something that I deeply believed in, that it was a passion, not just a career or a job, but it's something that I deeply believed in women's economic empowerment, actually changing so many women's lives around the globe. And I felt like there was actually more than a title and an office and all that comes with it, that if I were to stay and play an instrumental role helping transition to a new leader, which has always got a level of drama and cultural shift, that I could be not only useful, but play a very important, even more important contribution in this time as a leadership member.
(10:52):
So out of love for the company, loyalty to the people and not putting myself first, but putting the company first, I made the decision to stay.
Claire Blake (11:05):
It's remarkable in so many ways. I think in the work I do here at World 50, I have the privilege of walking alongside division presidents who are making that decision and making that leap. And for everybody who I've seen get the job, I've had somebody who didn't. Frankly, it's fascinating to talk about what happens after you stay because staying meant dealing with the aftermath, not just personally getting passed over because I can imagine the disappointment, but externally with employees, with stakeholders, with everybody who's been abuzz about this, I am curious, what were the people around you saying?
Andrea Jung (11:39):
Many people, industry people saying, "Why?" I mean, because they were aware that I had other ... "Why did you stay?"
Claire Blake (11:44):
What's wrong with her?
Andrea Jung (11:45):
I mean, why wouldn't you take one of these other opportunities? I mean, what was it that made you stay or you shouldn't have stayed? I mean, why did you stay? Because you can't make the ultimate decisions. The company in that moment, which is the reason that I didn't get the job, is facing some challenges. And if the person at the top can't make those critical, strategic and operational calls, then the company may not succeed. And what's the point, whether it's 18 months or five years later? So there was a lot of skepticism and/or naysaying of the decision that I made, including in my own family. I mean, people who were thinking, "I'm surprised that you stayed." I do think that from the people in the company and the team, there was gratitude. So one of the things that kept me going was that there was a tremendous amount of loyalty in reverse, not just mine to the team, but the team to me.
(12:36):
That actually caused some issues with the CEO. I had to work hard to make sure that the loyalty could shift because they had wanted me to become the CEO, but the loyalty would shift to him because he, A, needed that and deserved that. And so I had to work extra hard on his behalf and sometimes not deservingly so. But I felt like that was my job as the number two person in the company. So I felt like I was always threading a needle for, certainly a couple of months after he took over the role and I became the number two in charge, not the number one.
Claire Blake (13:10):
And I think in reality for you, once you make the decision to stay, his success is your success.
Andrea Jung (13:14):
His success is my success. My job is to make him successful. And I think that that is the key learnings that I had and that kept me going at all times was the constant reminder that the enterprise comes first. He's the leader of the enterprise. Once you stay, you're committed to the enterprise and to the leader. If you're not, I should have left. But I made the decision and don't look back on that even today. But having made the decision, I'm going to stay, then the loyalty has to be to him, to the enterprise, and to do every single thing in my power to make it successful for him.
Claire Blake (13:49):
There's 100% having to check the ego and, frankly, the emotions at this point. You mentioned kind of threading the needle and the conscious behavior you had to have. Now that you have the benefit of looking back, what were the very practical things that you did to do that, if you do recall?
Andrea Jung (14:05):
In many cases, giving him credit for decisions or actions that I was making or that he wasn't necessarily as involved in, but for the team and the team below, letting them feel and believe that he was driving those strategic and personnel decisions was one very, very important way to start to begin to drive loyalty towards him. That is a conscious effort to take the blame and always give the credit to somebody else. I mean, that's what they say comes with the leadership mantle, but I think you have to work extra hard when you are in that liaise position. He was an outsider. They didn't know him. They knew me. And so you've got to sort of step away because it's easy for them to come to your office. I didn't want a single person to say, "Really, really where should my loyalty lie?" Because I think that ends up being distracting, energy draining, away from driving results, which is what the company needed to do.
Claire Blake (15:00):
I mean, it's remarkable. When I look at the fact that you made the choice that benefited the enterprise, which I do want to talk about, just the purpose that was behind that, but it's a conscious choice that benefited the enterprise over your own career. I do want to ask, looking back, what did that cost you personally?
Andrea Jung (15:15):
It's interesting because my reflections on it now are that it made me a better CEO when I finally did get the job, which was not something I was anticipating. That adversity, if you would, and that career step that you're not anticipating, that is not what you thought or that is extremely challenging. They are often, and I would say almost always the most beneficial grit driving experiences that make you even more ready for the real job. It was defining, that period in my life, in a way I had to do the job without having the title and work through it to make sure someone else was getting the credit. And those skills are invaluable. What does command and control mean anyway, even when you are the CEO? Technically, every single person in the entire company reports into you with a solid line. It doesn't work that way because people don't follow unless they want to follow.
(16:12):
But I think this concept of how to influence when you don't have the job is one of the most extraordinary lessons that I learned. And I use it today even in my judgment of leaders, whether I'm doing that as a board member and we're looking at succession or whether it's as a leader today of a nonprofit looking at performance and promotions. It is a very, very clear truth amongst all the leaders that I know, phenomenal leaders, is that at the end of the day, you can have the same IQ, you can have the same skillset, but the people who put the enterprise first, and it is not about themselves, are always the best leaders.
Claire Blake (16:53):
It's interesting because we were just talking about what you're seeing now in business. And I think I'm reflecting you're now on the other side of the table. You have a completely different perspective. I mentioned on the boards of Unilever, on the boards of Apple, big brands that are influencing a lot of life. But I am just curious how this experience has influenced those that you're mentoring who either get the job or who don't.
Andrea Jung (17:18):
When you observe somebody who doesn't get a role and yet is able to continue to contribute, it's almost prove you wrong that you chose the wrong person. You end up seeing some of the most brilliant performances. Those who don't handle it as well, it almost validates the decision. It's that aftermath, it is how you handle that. The truest hallmark of professional maturity and EQ that is as important in the long run if it's a marathon, not a sprint, of assessing who's really ready for a job.
Claire Blake (17:52):
That's so profound. It's so simple, but yet so profound because you don't see it very much. Let's give the spoiler alert. 18 months later, you do become CEO of Avon. I love the story where the chairman calls you and says, "Congratulations, Madam CEO." Since then, you've gone on to serve some of the most influential boards we just discussed. You're now the CEO of Grameen America, which is a nonprofit microfinance organization providing business loans to women entrepreneurs. This moment of choosing to stay says a lot about who you are and where your loyalties lie. You feel very compelled by purpose and by mission. I just want to understand if there is anything more on where does that loyalty and service come from.
Andrea Jung (18:31):
I mean, I really owe that all to my parents. My father passed a couple years ago and my mom, I'm hugely fortunate she's going to be 94, but she is still here and still as proud of the work that I am doing today as she was when I first got that job. But they always instilled a sense of perseverance and giving back. You know just as a woman, my mom was a chemical engineer, the only woman who graduated in her class. Couldn't even get a job when she got out in the 50s because at most of the chemical plants that hired only men engineers, they didn't have women's bathrooms. We've come a long way since then, but I owe a lot to them because I have a younger brother and they always believed that girls can do anything that boys can do. And were just dogged about making sure that I felt like I had the equal opportunity to my brother.
Claire Blake (19:25):
It sounds like living up to those high expectations has been a core ideal for you. I would love to dig into another core value that you seem to hold. You mentioned earlier that one of the reasons you stayed with Avon's mission and purpose was how much you believed in it. What does purpose mean to you and why is it so important?
Andrea Jung (19:41):
I feel like the passion and the loyalty, you have to love what you do. To find the purpose in the work is incredible. I think sometimes the concept that for- profit companies is a different choice than a nonprofit company is something that I'm doing now. But I found purpose in both. I mean, sometimes it's about big, bad companies now. That really bothers me because having been involved in companies, running a company, being on boards of great companies, the role of corporate contribution is essential in our world and companies can and should do good. In a moment of a narrative sometimes that goes against that, I think it clearly takes away from the critical role that corporate leaders and corporations play within community and society and growth as a whole. But I think having a personal passion and purpose and finding that allows you to have loyalty to the people that you're serving, loyalty to the employees and the teams that is the joy of the work.
(20:43):
Everything else pales in comparison. Whether I've been on boards for many years or in companies for decades, I mean, I think what drives that longevity is being able to see the arc of progress, being able to kind of see things that don't take just one year or two years, but often take three to five years to completely transform and feeling a satisfaction in that. But it's always about the people at the end.
Claire Blake (21:06):
Yeah. I love that. Speaking of purpose and mission, talk to me about the work you do today with Grameen America, because I understand there's a deeper story behind your involvement.
Andrea Jung (21:15):
My grandmother was actually an entrepreneur. My grandfather came to America to work on the railroads. I mean, he worked for years to get $5 to pay for a new pair of shoes that didn't have holes in it, but it was my grandmother, not my grandfather, who knew how to do hair. And somebody gave her an informal loan and she opened a tiny little one chair salon in the back of a Chinese grocery store. The rest is history for my family because my dad went on to MIT and then I got two generations later the chance to have the education and the opportunities I had when they were definitely a family not speaking a word of English. And it was through her getting a small amount of loan capital, a hand up, not a handout that changed their ability to have the American dream. And so it is kind of full circle that I am doing this work.
(22:08):
I feel really lucky. You look at the news every single day right now and it's almost surreal. I feel extremely fortunate that I get to do the kind of work where I feel like every single day we're making some difference to a lot of people in their lives. And that is selfishly a way to move forward and to have hope and optimism in the middle of lots of just uncertainty.
Claire Blake (22:32):
Well, and I love the thread for you of the boards I serve on, or whether it's the work that I'm doing, providing a hand up in Grameen America, there's incredible impact on both sides. I just do have to say, I wrote down, if the hallmark of professional maturity is high EQ, I think you are literally at the top of the charts, but I think it's such a remarkable reminder for all of us that leadership really at the end of the day is never about us. It's always about the people we serve. Thank you so much for sharing your story. This has been awesome.
Andrea Jung (23:00):
Great to do this with you.
Claire Blake (23:04):
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