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The Wellness Docket is a podcast for lawyers and legal professionals ready to prioritize their mental health. Through honest conversations with guests from inside and outside the legal world, we explore burnout, balance, and the pressures of practice—creating space for reflection, recovery, and resilience in the profession. This is a space where your wellness is always on the docket.
Tim 0:02
Erin Durant, welcome to The Wellness Docket, and I'll do a quick bio for you. Erin founded Durant Barristers after practicing law in one of the largest law firms in Canada. Erin's practice in a variety of different manners, especially disciplinary complaints, negligence claims, sports disputes, which is one that I really want to get into with you. Erin has had a lot of experience conducting trials. Also won an award, the Ontario Bar Association's David W Scott pro bono award, County of Carleton law associations, regional senior Justice Award, which is funny because I'm in the Carlton County in New Brunswick, and your county of Carlton in Ontario, and this is Woodstock New Brunswick, and there also is a Woodstock Ontario. Erin has won several other awards, the Advocate Society's Writers award, Canadian Defense Lawyers Outstanding Young Litigator award, and is also included in the best lawyers in Canada, top 25 most influential lawyers. And more importantly, for the purposes of this, Erin wrote a book called 'It Burned Me All Down'. I'm going to share a copy here, and I've just finished reading this, so the timing is perfect to have a discussion. And so welcome to The Wellness Docket, Erin. I'm glad we could finally get a chance to talk. I know it's taken a little bit of time for us to kind of get this arranged, but it's good to have a discussion.
Erin 1:38
Thank you so much for having me and thank you for founding this podcast. I think it's a very important podcast to have out there, and a lot of lawyers, as you and I both know, struggle with their moments. So thank you for having me, and thank you for all the work you're doing in space.
Tim 1:54
Oh yeah, my pleasure, and I'm really glad to have you on. So I guess let's just start off, kind of taking a step back here, and when you wrote your book, 'It Burned Me All Down'. That was kind of during the covid times where a lot of people struggled. And can you just tell us a little bit about your background story and kind of how that all came to be, and you were, I guess, pushed or decided that you wanted to write this book?
Erin 2:24
Yeah. So like many people, I had difficult times with my mental health during covid. For me, a lot of it came from the fact that my practice got extremely busy during that time. So you know, I was reaching the age and days where your career starts to take off. I was recently a new partner at the firm. This sport work that I did in particular was really starting to heat up, and there were many scandals in the news that people will remember from the covid years and since then. So you know, my mental health declined over the course of 2020 and ultimately I completely, in my book, I call it 'Burned Out'. You know, I completely burned out in January of 2021, but with the burnout came, you know, depression, anxiety and a fairly long road back. When I decided to write the book, part of it was as I was working my way through my own feelings about what had happened, lessons I could learn myself from my experience. And also, you know, I got the sense, even though not a lot of people talk about it, you know, I got the sense that a lot of people were in a similar boat, that I was, that could maybe benefit from a book like that being out there. And since I put out the book, you know, I've often thought about updating it, because I feel like, for those that read the book, it sounds like I went through this difficult time, I set up my own firm, and then magically, I was better. And for those of us that have issues with depression, it's not often that that much of a straight line recovery. So, you know, I put the book out in late 2021 but since that time, over the past four years, I've continued to have challenges with my mental health from time to time.
Tim 4:21
Yeah, and I think that that's really, you know, good on you for putting that book out. And what I really appreciate about you, and I find it fascinating, is, you know, even your bounce back emails when, when I've emailed you, you know, you you're very upfront about the difficulties you're going through, if it's something with your mental health, and please talk to the staff member. And I think that's really the place where it starts right, like you're having those discussions, just to the point of being like, listen, like I'm having a mental health issue or my health is difficult, so I will get back to you and like, I think that's that's amazing. And you're right, it's not, it's not a progression, you know, a steady path progression. It's peaks and valleys. But I think, yeah, good on you for writing that. And it does have kind of a stream of consciousness feel to it. You could tell that it's, it's cathartic for you that you were getting some of those thoughts out of what was going on around you.
Erin 5:25
Yeah, for sure. And you know, in terms of being upfront about what has happened with me, you know, I've actually found it in some ways to make the whole thing a bit easier. You know, I'm very upfront with, you know, my repeat clients that I work with regularly, you know, they know I've had my challenges, and they know that there are times that I need to be away. You know, I'm getting to a point now where those times are much less frequent than they were in the past. And, you know, I'm better able to manage through my difficulties. But, you know, it's, it's hard at first, I think, to to make those disclosures and that, and I completely understand why many people decide not to, but, but for me, it's made it a bit easier in terms of explaining things to clients and setting expectations and building a team around me that can support myself and my clients when I need to be away.
Tim 6:22
Yeah, it's, it's really something else. And so tell me a little bit about, I was interested when you were talking about, kind of what you started going through, and then, you know, telling people around you what was happening, and I take it you didn't quite get the response that you you thought you were going to get right up front.
Erin 6:45
Yeah, so, you know, and this is one area where my thinking, I think, has changed a little bit from when I wrote the book, you know, when I wrote the book, I largely felt like I had been asking for help in various parts of my practice and that I wasn't able to get it. And that is true. But I think, you know, had I gone back in time and lived through the period again, I think I might have been more open about why I needed extra help. So, you know, as an example, one of the things that were happening during that 2020 period was I was working with a brand new legal assistant that didn't have very much experience, and I was being very, you know, very busy myself. So one of the things I was asking for was, you know, either more training for that individual or to be switched over to a different assistant that had the skills required to manage my practice. But that was sort of the end of my statement, you know, I'm really busy. I need some extra help with this. I'm having trouble being organized. And what I didn't do at the time was say, you know, and because of this, I'm not sleeping at night, you know, I'm crying frequently. I'm in distress, right? So, you know, I feel like, you know, I could have gone further in my request and in talking about why I needed things. Because, especially when you work in a very large law firm, everyone is very busy all the time, and it's a very stressful environment all the time. And I'm certain that the managers in those firms, you know, daily, you know, get requests from people that need more resources and assistance. So, you know, as I was going through it, I certainly felt that I wasn't supported, and especially after my return from my leave of absence. So I took a couple months off work and went back to work. And, you know, because I was a partner at the firm, you know, it's not like I went through human resources to come back to work. And, you know, human resources isn't asking for a return to work plan or anything like that. As a partner, I'm a, you know, quote, unquote, owner of the business. So, you know, I let them know I'm ready to go back to work, and then I went back to work without really setting up anything in terms of a plan to make sure I didn't fall back into the same place. So I ended up back at work just as busy as I was before I left and with exactly the same resources as I had before I left. And, you know, I don't think it would surprise anybody that year, I ended up very quickly back in a very dark and bad place and trying to fix things while working and while struggling to stay back at work. So, you know, I think a big lesson of my journey is get all that stuff organized while you're off, you know, with your medical team and with, you know, either your workplace or if you're a partner, with your partners, so that all that, all that lined up when you do come back to the office.
Tim 9:55
Yeah, no, I think that's fair. And one of the things that I really like about your book is it in chapter eight, it kind of has, you know, some good points, and I'll get to some of those in a few minutes. Of, you know, advice that you would give to people on how to deal with things. Can you tell me a little bit about how things have changed since you kind of left what you call the big law firm and started with your own firm. Have you found that better? Or, you know, does it present other challenges as well?
Erin 10:36
Yeah, so when I was leaving the firm, you know, the first decision I made was that I had to leave. You know, I wasn't feeling that my mental health was going to improve in my existing circumstance, and I didn't quite know what I was going to do. I did interviews with a few other firms, two of which I could have joined, you know, as a partner at those firms when I left, and sort of how I was feeling at the time was that I just needed some time and space to just figure myself out and figure out what I needed. And I was very concerned about, you know, hopping out of one work environment and entering into another one that may have, you know, similar or even worse problems than the one I had just left. So I think the decision to start up my firm was largely one based on the lack of trust that I had developed in terms of the ability to work with four others and to not have full control over certain things. So, you know, I started the firm because, you know, by doing so, I could decide who I'm working for, what resources I need, what my hours are going to look like, what type of files I'm going to work on. And I felt initially that I needed that level of control to just feel like, you know, I was back in control of my life, and some of those things that were stressors that I couldn't control previously would be gone. So I'd say initially, you know, my therapist and I kind of talked about it as being like escaping the toxic cloud, you know, my initial reaction was I felt a whole lot better. You know, I felt much more relaxed. I felt able to breathe. I had no difficulty finding people that wanted to work with me. My clients came with me as I expected, and actually more of them came than I expected. So, you know, I probably had a good year or so after I left, where my health stayed pretty good. You know, I still had some some down days, as we do, but you know, generally I didn't miss much work within the first year or so of setting up the firm, once I had everything set up and things were, you know, operating smoothly, and I think some of the excitement of starting the new business had worn down. I did have a regression in my house. I had another bout of increased anxiety, depression. You know, I was back in therapy. I was getting my medication adjusted. And, you know, part of it was, I think, coming to terms with everything that had happened over the past few years and having the time to kind of think about it a bit more. There were some other challenges happening and, you know, in my life at that time, but generally, it has been better in a number of ways, in terms of just having the control over the factors that were causing me stress, and do cause me stress, that has been very helpful. And, yeah, and I don't regret the decision to set up my firm in any way.
Tim 13:45
So what are the things like that you do in your practice that allow you to kind of build a different kind of law firm that balances, you know, performance with your well being. What are some of the secrets that you would recommend that people could implement?
Erin 14:06
So one of the things that I like about our firm is we're pretty much fully virtual. We do have small office space that's available to use, but by being virtual, we've kept down our overhead expenses quite a bit. So the amount of work and the amount of money we need to bring in the door on a month to month basis, is really to cover what, whatever we're paying, salaries, our insurance, you know, kind of the big ticket items. But for most law firms, the number two largest expense after salaries is, is your premises? Right?
Tim 14:40
100% Yeah, absolutely.
Erin 14:42
We don't really. So my premises expenses are our peanuts compared to the other things that I pay. So by reducing overhead costs, you know, it reduces some of the demands in terms of how hard we all need to work. Another thing is that, you know, I've hired people that I know and that I like and I have a good relationship with, and we're all very open with each other about pretty much everything. I don't expect my staff to be telling me, you know about their mental health struggles or anything, but I think that they know that because I'm open and because I've had my challenges, if they need a week or two, or if they're going through a hard time, they're able to ask for and to take it. And I'm not going to be judgmental about those things. And I guess the last bit has been just keeping an eye on the type of work that I like to do, the type of work that makes me happy to be in the office or excited to be in the office, and doing more of that and less of the things that cause me annoyance or stress. And so one of the main things that causes me stress isn't necessarily, you know, going to court or doing a difficult investigation. I get very overwhelmed when I have too much going on at once. So when I have too many files, too many clients needing things at the same time. So previously, I primarily did insurance defense litigation, and a lot of that was motor vehicle and personal injury cases, and that type of practice, you have 100 plus files all the time. So I've moved away from that practice. I still do some insurance work for professionals when they get sued, but otherwise I try to focus my work on bigger files, bigger mandates that I can get my head in more and focus on, you know, three or four of them at a time, rather than a huge practice where I'm getting pulled in many different directions.
Tim 16:40
I think that's the hard part. And I don't know about you, but I think I'm about 13 years out into practice. How many years are you now?
Erin 16:51
Almost the same, 14?
Tim 16:55
So when you first start your practice, you're more apt to take more things, right? Because you want to make a name for yourself, you want to be able to support your family. It's harder than what I think people realize it is, you don't just kind of roll out of law school and you're, you're making big bucks. It's a pretty hard grind, and it's somewhat freeing, isn't it, that once you kind of get to a point where you're like, Well, I don't really have to take that stuff on. It's too bad, because I don't know about you, I would sometimes take other things on, but I think you have to learn to say no more, or you just, you know, you'll become a statistic. You'll burn yourself out.
Erin 17:33
Yeah, I think that's exactly right, you know. And you reach a stage in your practice, I don't know, after maybe somewhere between six and 10 years, where you go from, nobody really knows who you are. You're just doing work for other lawyers, and then all of a sudden, people start sending you work. And for me, anytime somebody sent me work directly, I, you know, I wouldn't even think about saying no to it, right? That, you know, I wanted to keep those clients. I wanted to build that client base. And that's one of the things that was happening at the big firm, you know, I had basically a never ending flow of work from the firm's institutional clients that I could have only worked on. And, you know, I would have not advanced any further in my career, but they would have kept me there. I would have made good money, and I wouldn't have to go out and build a client base. But as I started getting clients coming to me directly, you know, I would take them, I would keep them, and by the end of it, I kind of felt like I was doing the work of two lawyers. You know, I had the institutional firm clients that I needed to serve still, and then I had this ever growing base of my own clients to work for. And it took me a long time to realize that, you know, I'm a human being, and I can't do everything all at once. So by, you know, being a bit more restricted in the type of work I do, and really thinking about what makes me happy, what I like doing, that's been very helpful in terms of maintaining my health.
Tim 18:57
That's really good and how so tell me a little bit about currently, I don't want to jump around too much, but you've had a few little relapses lately. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Erin 19:07
Yeah, so, you know, I'd say, over the past 10 months or so, my health has had some different challenges. So, you know, I started having panic attacks, was one of them. So I had some treatment for panic attacks, kind of separately from anxiety. You know, I got to a point where I was panicking about panic, they call it so you get afraid of having the panic attacks, which causes more panic. So that was one situation that I had to deal with. And I had specialized therapy dealing with panic attacks. And more recently, you know, through working with my therapist and undergoing some testing, we've actually been able to identify sort of an underlying condition that I wasn't previously treating, that that is likely feeding into my general mental health. Problems, and that is a diagnosis of ADHD. So, as I said at the outset, what causes me the most stress and anxiety is when I have too much coming at me at once. I find it difficult to prioritize. I start getting overwhelmed and, you know, all of those are things that through working through treatments for ADHD and developing different skills and prioritization tactics and working with my staff, I've been able to work on that quite a bit, and it's been helping in the more recent months, ever since I've had that diagnosis.
Tim 20:37
Oh, that's really good to hear that. I think that's quite I'm not an expert on this by any means, but I think that's quite common, that there are what they call, I think so, called comorbidities, and these kind of things that there's, you know, one thing often has an underlying other issue, I may call it, so I'm not kind of stigmatizing it, but that's that's pretty common.
Erin 21:02
Yeah, exactly. And especially with women who tend to present differently with ADHD, and especially when you're younger, you know, women tend to not be that hyperactive or a bit more distracted. So, you know, for for me, once I got that diagnosis, and once I started looking backwards, a whole lot of stuff made it made a lot more sense in terms of things that have unfolded in my life, and the things that were, you know, stressing me out, because I can never quite figure out before the diagnosis, how it was that I could, you know, go do multi month trials, and, you know, deal with very intense situations in my practice, and that not caused me any difficulty or stress or depression, and you know, and yet, you know, I could turn on my email in the morning and see 150 emails and I just wanted to collapse. So, you know, for me, that diagnosis has really just helped me understand my experience a lot better, and it's helped me move forward, and it's sort of a slightly different way in terms of the treatment and the focus on the therapy session.
Tim 22:08
Well, that's, you know, that's really good. I'm really glad that you've, you've taken the time to do those things, and also that you're sharing those things, right? Because I still think that even though we're starting to do better, we're not totally talking about these things enough, you know, hence why I want to continue these conversations with people and have those discussions.
Erin 22:35
Yeah, for sure. And you know, even myself, like I've been quite open about my, you know, depression and anxiety challenges, and, you know, the ADHD diagnosis, even for me, who's been open about things, I initially was a bit reluctant to share that or to talk about that, because, you know, there's, you know, a bit of a different stigma associated with that. I had a little bit of a denial that that was my issue, you know, I, you know, I went through school with great marks. I got myself through law school, you know, how do I have an attention problem, right? So, you know, even though I'm somebody who is quite comfortable and open, I still find myself, at times, worried about the stigma. And, you know, I think the main reason why I continue to share as much as I do is I know people out there on similar journeys, and if people aren't comfortable sharing, sort of their experiences and what work and you know, what they're going through, you know a lot of people can feel, I guess, alone in it.
Tim 23:34
Yeah, no, I thank you very much for doing that, because I think that's going to continue to move things forward and make us a better profession as a whole. One question that I have for you is, what kind of things have you done to kind of mentor other lawyers, maybe in similar circumstances, and what kind of things have you seen over your time and your practice?
Erin 24:05
Yeah, so I guess I'll do it two ways. One is, you know, strangers, and the other is people that work for me, and you know, for people that work for me, like I think, I try to set a good example for them in terms of taking care of your mental health. And our law clerk, Wanda, actually does that as well. You know, if you've noticed somebody hasn't taken a vacation for a while, she's on our case to make sure we take the time off, I do that as well. You know, I try to keep track of how hard people are working. They're going through even a stressful file, you know, recommending when the file is over to take a break. So that's what we do internally and then externally, because of the book and because of some of the other things I've shared and blogged about, I do get a lot of people who reach out to me, um, for discussions, and most of them are are strangers who I've never met before. Many of them are lawyers from large law firms. And you know, they're essentially coming to me because they're going through a hard time, and want to talk about it. So I always agree to have those conversations often, you know, it's only one conversation with the person. And you know, some of the usual advice that I give is to become aware of the resources available to them. Whether, in Ontario, we have a lawyer's Assistance Program, I think across the country that exists, different companies also have benefits available to people. I also often ask the question, okay, is there anybody in your workplace that you've talked to yet about that, and often the answer to that is no, you know. So sometimes we discuss, okay, you know. Why not? Are you comfortable? How would that happen? You know, if you wanted to, if you're not comfortable talking to your partners or another lawyer about it? Is there a human resources department or, you know, some of the large firms have internal coaches that you can work with. So, you know, I try to help them brainstorm a small list of people that they can reach out to and basically create a little community around themselves. So when they're done talking to me, you know, they have other people that they have a plan to go and talk to and to get the help that they need, but it's troubling to me that many people feel there isn't a single person in their work environment that they feel comfortable telling that they have a hard time.
Tim 26:40
Yeah, I think that, you know, I guess I can't speak for other people, but I guess the worry is that if you express those things, you know, those people are going to forever look at you like, oh, that person has issues, right? And let's be honest, everybody does at some point in time or another. And so, like, I don't understand why we would have that kind of point of view.
Erin 27:04
Yeah, yeah. And some workplaces have set up a sort of go to people who are trained in Mental Health First Aid, or, you know, mental health mentors. I've heard of, you know, some of the large institutions, like the Ministry of the Attorney General here in Ontario, they actually have a small working group of lawyers who either have personal experience with mental health and wellness issues or they care about it. So, you know, I think by doing things like that, you're identifying, you know, who within the workplace is a safe space that you can go to and, you know what I tell people is, if you truly feel you can't, tell people that you need a break and you're having a hard time, you know, are you in the right place? Because there are toxic places to work and there are horrible bosses. But I think in many places, especially the bigger workplaces, not everybody's a horrible person. And there are people out there that are going to be able to help you through and give you some advice, and the trick is just identifying those people and feeling comfortable, building those relationships and you know, if you don't feel like you can get to that level of comfort in your work environment, you know, I don't think it's going to be helpful for your mental health going forward, to remain there, especially you know, as you know, often it's not you're having a mental health challenge just one month, right? It tends to be for many people, a journey, and it can pop up and down over the course of your career. So finding a place that you feel comfortable with that's going to be supportive of their people as people, I think is very important.
Tim 28:47
Yeah, for sure. So a couple really important questions here. Number one, I take it, you were a big music fan, right?
Erin 28:58
Yeah, yeah. Taylor Swift.
Tim 29:02
I was like, wow, there's, there's a lot of T swift quotes in here.
Erin 29:10
So music is one of the things I like to listen to, you know, both to calm me down and to keep my mind active. So yeah, music is definitely part of my life.
Tim 29:21
Yeah, me too. And the second question is, you're a former, or maybe still, softball athlete and huge baseball fan.
Erin 29:33
I am. My husband and I both played that baseball and softball at a very high level, and we've done some coaching. I'm happily retired. He still is out playing and hitting home runs and doing all kinds of exciting things.
Tim 29:51
So are you? You have to be a Blue Jays fan, right?
Erin 29:54
Absolutely. Yeah.
Tim 29:55
Okay, perfect. That's that's important, because if it was like Boston or something. I might have to stop the podcast right now.
Erin 30:04
No, no, they're very good. I'm bad luck, though. So if I go to a game, they lose, so I tend to try to watch from a distance so that they continue winning. But I am going through a game next week, so if they lose-
Tim 30:17
Who are they playing?
Erin 30:18
I don't remember. I don't remember.
Tim 30:23
We went. We did it. We called it the Great Canadian Culvert Road Trip. And we went two years ago with my mother and my kids and my wife, and we went and watched the Jays play Boston, and they lost five to zero. So by the time we got to the eighth inning, we were kind of ready to shuffle out, which was kind of sad. So maybe I'm bad luck too. I don't know.
Erin 30:45
Baseball people are always superstitious.
Tim 30:48
I think so. I'm pretty good at yelling at the TV. I've had to have, I've had a few talking to about too much yelling at the TV, and the family doesn't like that.
Erin 30:57
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's interesting you talk about, sort of the music and the baseball, because one of the things that hasn't come up yet in the discussion is a big thing that I've changed in terms of my lifestyle since I left a large firm, has been reconnecting with with different interests and hobbies and trying to find things to fill my time and my brain. So I'm not just thinking about work all the time, because, you know, I certainly had several years in my career where I definitely think I was a workaholic, you know, law and the practice that occupied so much of my both my, you know, work time, but also my relaxation time, you know, I'd be sitting on the couch, but I'd still be thinking of worrying about a file. So I've developed some more hobbies. So I'm a big gardener. Now. I take a lot of photographs outside now and then. For me, it took a while to find those interests that would capture my attention and keep my attention so that I had some outlets other than just, you know, going back to the office and working more.
Tim 32:05
Isn't that funny, because now that you bring that up, one of my other guests had mentioned a very similar experience with basically saying, like, once you got into this, like, a big law kind of practice, not that I'm going to knock every big law firm, but that person said that a very similar story, like, lost all your hobbies, didn't weren't able to do all these things, and then once you kind of left that lifestyle and kind of found reclaimed that, you know, I don't know about you, but for me, those are non negotiables, right? Like, I know that if I don't have, like, music, animals, family, things like that, baseball, then, you know, it's hard on my mental health, and so it has to be built into it. And like, you know, there's lots of ways to find to kind of combine those things so it doesn't interfere. And actually, I think it makes you a stronger lawyer, because you're, I don't know what it is, but I when I'm doing things with my brain other than legal stuff outside and I'm working on certain things, I think it makes me sharper on what I'm doing, because it just works on the neural pathways, or something that, rather than just kind of sitting around and doing nothing,
Erin 33:28
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And the other thing that helped me, especially with my depression symptoms, is, you know, when I'm really bad, you know, I wake up and I don't even want to go to bed. And I think that's a common thing for people with depression is just getting that urge to just get up and have a shower can be challenging. So right? You know, my gardening hobby is great for that, because now the first thing I do when I get up in the morning is I get dressed and I go outside and I spend some time in the garden, or I spend some time with my camera taking pictures of birds and other things outside. And, you know, it's a way for me to start the day that's positive, that gets me up and out. And often, you know, by the time I'm done fiddling around outside and, you know, trimming the tomatoes or whatever I'm doing, I feel really calm and happy and that I've accomplished something already with my day, and that feeling of accomplishment can be very powerful when you're going through a hard time, because I don't know about you, but for myself, it can feel like you're not getting anything done and spinning your wheels and the work building. So doing something that you enjoy, that makes you feel accomplished has been very helpful for me in terms of getting over those difficult mornings.
Tim 34:45
Yeah, that's a theme, I think, for me, and I've, I've, I'm open that I've gone through depression anxiety for as long as I can remember, but it's, it's definitely a theme that I've had to be strongly forcing myself to sometimes just step away. And what what's amazing about it is is without fail, when I'm trying to solve a problem and I just can't think of the answer, when I kind of give myself a little bit of breath and I let my subconscious mind kind of run its its program in the background, I usually figure it out while I'm doing something else, like that's the amazing thing. I'll be sleeping or playing music or watching the ball game, and I'll think something will trigger something in my head, and I'll go, oh, wait a second. I've just, you know, instead of just sitting there, like, just take the first next step, and the rest of it just kind of comes after that.
Erin 35:34
Absolutely.
Tim 35:37
My one last question, because I think we're getting to the end here is, if there was one thing that you could change about the legal profession, regarding mental health, what would that be? Or if there's one thing that you could suggest that we should be doing, what do you think it could be? I know that's a tough one.
Erin 35:59
No, it is a tough one. But you know, one thing I learned from my my senior associate, Andrew, he came to law late, and he came to law after a career in the military, and during his during his time in the military, and there was a lot of focus on mental health, because there was a recognition that being in the military and, you know, he served in Afghanistan overseas, and he did other difficult things. You know, there was this focus that it's an occupational hazard. You know, being in the military, your mental health is at risk, and we're going to focus on that.
Tim 36:35
And nobody would ever question, nobody would ever question that, right?
Erin 36:39
And nobody ever questions it, right. So, you know, I think there's enough research that's out now. You know, there was a Canadian study that was done over the past couple years, and there's been studies in the US. You know, I think it's a fact that practicing law is challenging on your mental health, and no matter where you practice, you know, you're helping people through difficult circumstances. You're dealing with difficult problems. You're dealing with stress. So as a profession, I think we need to get to the point where the military and firefighters and police officers and other professions are and really focus on our mental health and recognize, okay, it's an occupational hazard. We need to be mindful of it. We need to take steps to protect our mental health, and we need to have our eyes open to make sure our colleagues are okay as well. So I think that would be the number one thing I change is, is we need to come to terms with the fact that, you know, it's not just Erin Durant or Tim or Orlando de Silva, or, you know, those of us who have talked about it, you know it, it's most of us, the vast majority of us, are going to have challenges with their mental health.
Tim 37:49
That's really insightful. I don't think I've, I don't think I've ever thought of it that way, to compare it like to the to the not to say it's exactly, it's the same as military, but I can see your point there, that it really is, it is an occupational hazard, right? Like, and for me it's always been a little bit of chicken or egg like, are people who are drawn to that kind of profession, maybe just a little differently wired, anyways. But then you get in, you get into the profession, and you're, you know, it exacerbates that. So, yeah, no, I really appreciate that that's a very to really acknowledge that it is an occupational hazard and that we need to continue doing those things. Perfect. Well, I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me, and I'll look forward to future discussions.
Erin 38:38
Yeah, thanks for having me, and I wish you the best of luck with The Wellness Docket.
Tim 38:42
Thank you very much.