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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Melissa Chandler: I am modeling for this kid that doesn't matter how old you are, doesn't matter if you don't know how to do something, trying something new, pushing your boundaries, doing hard things is always worth doing.
[00:00:09] So it was a good reminder that, like, you're modeling it whether you know it or not. So just being you, if you're worried about being a good parent, it's just like you're, doing it. So it was one of those moments, like, to push yourself and, you know, especially as starting a consultancy this year, it's a good reminder to me to be like, it's okay that you kinda don't know what you're doing yet.
[00:00:27] You'll figure it out.
[00:00:29] Mallory Lee: This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:31] Shannon Curran: This is not a parenting podcast nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public. . welcome Melissa Chandler, who is just such a dear friend of mine. We'll get into it. Uh, but, uh, we're so excited to have you here.
[00:00:53] So can you tell our audience a little bit about your family? So, exciting news everyone, we have a twin mom on, uh, on the pod today.
[00:00:57] and tell us a little bit about, uh, your [00:01:00] partner, like what your family structure looks like, and then what your work life looks like, which is also a little bit of a coming out story here. I love this. So give us an update
[00:01:09] Melissa Chandler: Lots of things. Lots of things. Yeah. So, first I'll say I am based in Boston proper, live in Dorchester for those who know, um, the neighborhood. I know Shannon, you talk about living near Boston, but you don't
[00:01:19] Shannon Curran: I don't live in Boston
[00:01:20] Melissa Chandler: So before I
[00:01:22] Mallory Lee: Getting called out finally.
[00:01:24] Melissa Chandler: out, I just want to
[00:01:26] Shannon Curran: No, it's real. It's a real thing and I appreciate you keeping me humble. I appreciate that, yeah. As someone that did live in Boston for 10 years. Uh, I don't anymore. Yeah, that's true
[00:01:33] Melissa Chandler: in terms of family structure, so I have my husband Scott, and we have our twin boys, they're five years old, Alex and Luke, as well as a dog named Scout who hates all people. So I, I know you had another guest who also had a dog who hated people, so I thought that was-- I'd share that bit of information.
[00:01:51] Boys are in full-time public preschool, so that's fantastic. We can talk all about that. And in terms of work-life,
[00:01:57] I just launched my own [00:02:00] comms consultancy, And after nearly two decades in marketing communications, primarily in tech, but also some time in financial services. So yeah, I'm mostly remote. I am desperate for human contact though, so I'm always coasting off of friends who are co-working in different places.
[00:02:16] So you'll find me bopping around Boston. Uh, my husband works, uh, full-time as well, and he is about four days in the office. He loves going to the office, so this is not a burden for him at all. And he is in finance and banking.
[00:02:31] should I say how I know you, Shannon? Is that important
[00:02:34] Shannon Curran: I c- let's do it. Let's do it
[00:02:36] Melissa Chandler: So I've been wanting to say this. I'm a big podcast fan here. I've been listening to this podcast since you launched. Um, and I know Shannon because I was the boss whose maternity, maternity leave ruined her life. So that's me. So if you heard that story the problem.
[00:02:52] Shannon Curran: Melissa didn't
[00:02:53] Melissa Chandler: the system's the problem. I guess I'm not the problem. Patriarchy's the
[00:02:57] Shannon Curran: ruined my life, not Melissa. Yeah, [00:03:00] that is, yeah.
[00:03:01] Melissa Chandler: That's who I am for all my listeners.
[00:03:04] Mallory Lee: Oh, wow. I think that was Sydney's episode. So if you don't know what we're talking about, you need to go back and listen to Sydney's episode where Shannon explained that the first time she had to fill in for a maternity leave, it didn't really go that well. And it was Melissa's maternity leave
[00:03:19] Shannon Curran: Yeah, so it went like really well career-wise. I just, burned out and died, uh, at the end. but yes, Melissa and I worked together at Quick Base. There's been a few funny situations with Melissa. I hired her as my boss, which was like a funny thing to do, at the beginning.
[00:03:33] And then we worked together for many years through COVID. Which sort of felt like 10 years, right? Because we worked together through COVID and, like, all of the hardest times. We also went through a major like crisis together, that always brings people
[00:03:48] Melissa Chandler: Not just one, I feel like.
[00:03:50] Shannon Curran: Yeah, so many.
[00:03:51] Um, if you've ever been in crisis comms, like, the kinda like the brotherhood that is built from, um, the closets in which you're building, [00:04:00] uh, statements from. So this is before Claude could write a legal statement, you know? Like, we had to write those things all ourselves. and so yeah, we've been through a lot together and, I remember the day Melissa told me she was pregnant with twins, and I was like, "Wha-" I was like, "Hold on."
[00:04:15] Like, also like, did you want to be?" I like, there's like all these HIPAA questions I can't ask you. Like,
[00:04:19] Mallory Lee: Did you do it with the twins on purpose? Was that on purpose?
[00:04:23] Melissa Chandler: I don't know. I mean, I guess you can do twins on purpose if you wanted to, but no, we did not do twins on purpose.
[00:04:28] Mallory Lee: What was it like finding out that you were gonna have twins? Tell us that story please
[00:04:32] Melissa Chandler: I fully expected you to ask me this question because it's the number one question people ask me when they find out that I have twins. So for just a little bit of context, I wasn't one of those people who was always like, "I know I wanna be a mom." I was, I've never against it. I always thought I would do it, but never, it was never one of those things I knew deep in my soul until it happened.
[00:04:55] so kind of li- you know, in a positive way, you know, pro. [00:05:00] And once we decided to have kids, Scott and I, after we got married and everything, we said we're gonna go for this and, you know, we'll see how it goes. We'll have one, we'll go from there. I got pregnant when I was older, geriatric, as you know, that whole thing, which whole other conversation. and we went in because I was an older pregnancy, they're a little bit more concerned, so they bring you in a little bit earlier. You have more ultrasounds, all of that. And they brought me in for, a heartbeat confirmation to make sure I was pregnant, and they did it and they said, "Great, fantastic.
[00:05:28] Everything sounds good. We're gonna bring you in next week to do a dating ultrasound," which was a little bit early. It was like 11 weeks or something like that. We went in, and remember, this is COVID, this is pre-vaccine, so like everything's weird in the doctor's office. Like I'm lucky Scott was even there, frankly.
[00:05:43] I was just... All I kept thinking was, if Scott wasn't here, could you imagine me calling him and telling him this happened?
[00:05:50] Shannon Curran: This happened to a friend of mine. She was alone when she found out she was having twins with her second. So she went from one to three,
[00:05:55] Melissa Chandler: what a weird, what a weird time in history, right? To be alone for those things. [00:06:00] But anyway, she's doing the thing and whatever, and she goes, "Whoa, there's two in there."
[00:06:05] And I looked at this woman, this poor woman, and I go, "You're lying." Literally my initial reaction to her was, "Oh, you're a
[00:06:11] Shannon Curran: a funny joke. Like,
[00:06:13] Melissa Chandler: It's not funny. It's not funny. I'm not ready for this." And yeah, so two in there. And at, at that point, I think it was like a year or two later is when they were able to tell early on if they were boys or girls via blood test.
[00:06:25] So we didn't even know, like we wouldn't know until the 20-week period, like what was going on in there really.
[00:06:33] But we left that appointment and we just sat in the car for a while being like, what are we actually going to do?" Like, you think about the work, the money. Do we need two cribs? Do we need two of literally everything?
[00:06:42] How are we gonna do this?
[00:06:43] we were excited, but it was just like all of that stuff just piles up quickly. And then it's like even things like you pick a name. You pick a name for a boy. You pick a name for a girl. Now we need two names for boys, two names for girls.
[00:06:55] So it just like the laundry list starts to spiral. And it was overwhelming at [00:07:00] first, but once we got comfortable with the idea, it became so much fun to tell people that we were having twins because you announce the pregnancy, but then like you slip across the like ultrasound picture and people are like, "What is this alien that has like two heads in here?"
[00:07:14] You know, kind of a thing. And then they realize like, "Oh my gosh, that's two. That's two babies in there." So it was, that was fun. Um, it was one of those surprises that like I'll never get a chance to do that kind of thing again for people, so, well, hopefully not planning on having any more so.
[00:07:30] Shannon Curran: remember Melissa telling me, she, she called me and she's like, "Hey, I have something to tell you." And I was like... Which is, well, it's funny because I'd actually been promoted like a few months before, maybe like two months before, and Melissa called me on a Friday to tell me, and I thought she was gonna tell me she was pregnant 'cause I, like, didn't know this promotion was coming at all.
[00:07:47] And so I was like, "Oh, that's like so nice." Talk about like women supporting women, a boss that like advocates for you to have a promotion that like you didn't ask for, that like gives you this thing. Like I actually can't even explain like [00:08:00] how
[00:08:00] big of a difference that
[00:08:01] Melissa Chandler: you deserve it. You earned all of it. I could go for-- You, you know, I could go on and on about you for hours. You earned that. You, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't gifted to you. You, you put in the work, and you deserve that. So
[00:08:14] don't let
[00:08:15] Shannon Curran: So I know not everyone would do it. So when I got the second call, I was like, "I'm not getting pregnant again. I can confirm that." So I was like, I wonder, and I jumped on the call and you were like, "I'm pregnant." I'm like, "Oh my God." And you're like, "But wait." And I was like, "H- what do you mean?
[00:08:27] There's like no more information to that sentence, hopefully, right?" Usually you like hope it's just a pretty easy... She's like, "There's two." And I was like, that's when I was like, wait, had you been going through IVF? Like, I had all these thoughts of like, in my mind that's like, must've been what was going on.
[00:08:40] And I felt so much like, oh my God, she's been going through all of this and I didn't know. And like, and then she was like, "No." She was like, "I just happened
[00:08:47] Melissa Chandler: But yeah, you know I'm pretty, I'm pretty open about that and, you know, uh, but because people ask that, that's like an inherent, like natural next question, and no, it was totally random, accidental.
[00:08:56] And what's funny is because when you have twins, you start learning a lot about twins and the incidence of twins, and you become that person who answers all the questions about it.
[00:09:05] it's actually interesting because today you see more twins less because of IVF, because IVF has gotten, as I understand it, a bit better and more effective, where they often don't need to implant multiple embryos. Uh, is this a science podcast now? But fine.
[00:09:18] Shannon Curran: Uh, yeah. Women in STEM. Women in STEM
[00:09:22] Melissa Chandler: Um, and I'm welcome for somebody to correct me on this information, but this is what I learned at the time. And, it's becoming less common from that experience and more common just happening just randomly because the older you get, the more likely you are to have twins. So fun fact, fraternal twins are the genetic ones.
[00:09:40] Those are the ones that happen that run in families and identical twins are not. They're completely random. It can happen to anybody. So fraternal twins, you know, you think, "Oh, who in my line? 'Cause it's my fault. I'm the reason that we have twins." Um, that it's like my, my eggs are doing a thing and I had multiple eggs drop and blah, blah, blah.
[00:09:57] so nobody in my line that we know of had [00:10:00] any twins, so completely random. It's because I'm getting older and the way my OB, oh, bless her, wish she was still there. The way she described it was, "Well, you know, your body's like having a fire sale. It's like you get an egg, you get an egg."
[00:10:12] Like it's like your body's like, "Oh, I'm pregnant," 'cause you're older. And I was like,
[00:10:17] Mallory Lee: I
[00:10:18] Melissa Chandler: I was like, "This is-- I did not expect that to be the comparison you were making to my body, but okay." But yeah, that's the best way to explain it. And that's why you see 'cause pa- women are waiting longer to have kids, you're seeing more twins.
[00:10:29] Mallory Lee: So I mean, even in our, you know, in our school we see multiple sets of twins and it's way more common than it was before, That is so cool. I saw a stat that there's like a barbell effect happening where, Gen Z is actually starting to have kids now, which is kind of mind-blowing. Yeah. But they're doing it on purpose. They're doing it on purpose. It's not like the teen pregnancies that you used to see so much. It's the, um, they're doing it for, their own volition.
[00:10:58] Then there's like a [00:11:00] flattening in the middle for millennials until you get to like the elder millennials who also have a surge of children coming along. So you're either on the younger end or you're in this like totally awful term of the geriatric end where people are waiting longer to have kids. And I mean, obviously that, that can tie into some of the career conversations that we've had before, and I know that it's a factor.
[00:11:25] but it's just, I don't know. I, I know so many people that are 40 plus that are, you know, having children and it's going fine. So I feel like we can stop, worrying so much about that maybe.
[00:11:38] Shannon Curran: I know. I went to a-- I had to go to an MFM, maternal fetal medicine doctor for my second baby, and they-- So normally people are there if they're high risk, and the guy was telling me, so like they send everyone that's AMA, advanced maternal age actually is what they're calling it now, so that it sounds like slightly nicer, than
[00:11:56] Mallory Lee: That is a little nicer
[00:11:57] Shannon Curran: so I went and the guy was telling me, [00:12:00] so I, I feel like I'm in like the median age. Like I'm like not super young or super old when I had kids, and I'm medium well. And so they-- he was like, "This is like the easiest ultrasound I've done all day." He's like-- He's like, "I just..." I'm like, "Oh, really?" He's like, "Yeah, my average age of second babies," he said like, "Average of the mom is 44."
[00:12:19] Melissa Chandler: Oh, wow. Like, well, average
[00:12:24] Shannon Curran: Yes, of the ones he sees. So he obviously sees the older, like, group, but he said there was a woman in there that was 50 that... I know. was on her fifth kid, and I was like, "That's, uh, you know, you do you, boo." But, that sounds crazy. I, I can't imagine. Like, there's... I feel like I can't imagine having kids that old or as young as my parents were either.
[00:12:46] Like, I, what I was doing at that time was not raising children. So it is interesting, though. Science has come a long way.
[00:12:52] Melissa Chandler: Yeah,even like, just to be clear, I had kids when I, I had, when I was 36 or 37, so not e- like it's just,
[00:12:58] Mallory Lee: It's like not even
[00:12:59] Melissa Chandler: I know, which [00:13:00] is why it's, it's so crazy. But I just think about, how like exhausted I am even now and just imagine continuing that as I get older. It just feels, feels so hard and it's that, like that balance of like I wouldn't trade how I've done this for anything because I wasn't ready.
[00:13:17] I wasn't ready in my 20s to do this. I wasn't even ready in my early 30s, honestly. And I needed the time to bake to become a fully formed human before I could dedicate my life to building other fully formed humans. And I think I'm a better parent because of it. Sure, there's downsides to it. You know, I, I don't have as much energy.
[00:13:33] My back hurts, you know, like whatever. But, but what I'm able to provide w- and what Scott and I are both able to provide our kids, I think just far surpasses that. It's just parents who are just, we're more patient than I think we would've been as younger parents. We have the financial resources and the means to provide for them in a way.
[00:13:51] I mean, that's huge. You know, y- sure, money doesn't have to be everything, but it's a huge part of the equation, right? Like, it just takes out so much of the stress. And I just think about, [00:14:00] you know, I had parents who had, had me pretty young, and it's like money was always a problem, right? It's like, it, it's always a, a conversation in the house and, and the fact that it's not about making like tons of money, it's just, not to make this, again, it's not a finance podcast either, but it's like ha- having that stability and that security to know like, okay, I've kind of got some things figured out, and I know we'll be okay, and I know I can create this, you know, protected little world for them, so.
[00:14:29] Mallory Lee: Well
[00:14:30] Shannon Curran: And speaking of money, we did talk about the idea of having daycare for two kids at the same time, 'cause you and Scott both went back full time. can you talk a little bit about your leave? Because you also did stagger your leave, if I remember correctly. I was in a haze. I don't know what I was
[00:14:44] Melissa Chandler: You can be like, "I was blacked out because I was doing all your jobs."
[00:14:49] Shannon Curran: guys, it was fine. It was fine. Um, it was fine. Um, and then what did you decide to do for childcare? 'cause you also live in, in Boston proper. She's a city gal, so [00:15:00] that is, like, also extremely expensive, right? So, would love to hear about, like, what the decision that you made in your village, your special village
[00:15:06] Melissa Chandler: Yeah, we've, we've, we've committed and we've dug our heels into being ci- city peeps and raising city kids til further notice, right? Uh, and like you said, that comes with its own set of challenges. So when we first found out, we immediately... I'm a, Channing can tell you this, I'm type A, super planner. I've got a spreadsheet for everything
[00:15:25] I was like, "I am on the list.
[00:15:27] We are booking daycare," you know, and everything. And during COVID it was a little bit different. I felt like there was just like some places were closed, some places were not. Some, some places had open lists, some places didn't, because a lot of people were keeping their kids home. So we actually didn't have a terrible time getting on lists, which I was a little concerned about with two kids.
[00:15:45] But we immediately said, "Okay, let's sign them up for, care." And then backtrack a bit about my leave. Well, we actually probably should talk about leave first and then get into the care bit of it. Uh, we did have a unique situation. So, people ask me all the time, "Was it hard [00:16:00] having twins? Do you think twins are harder than, two kids close in age or what you're doing, Shannon?"
[00:16:04] Or anything like that. Kids are all hard, right? They're all hard in their own special and unique way. I would not wish having twin newborns on anybody. That, I black that entire phase out and I refuse to revisit it. So maybe that part was harder. But again, every stage is hard in different ways for different reasons.
[00:16:20] So I think it's a, it's a silly conversation because it's all difficult. but in terms of leave, um, we-- I think we were pretty lucky because not only did I get a, a good chunk of leave, but Scott also had, I think he had three or four months of parental leave. He didn't even take the whole thing all at once.
[00:16:37] So, um, he was one of the first at the company at the time to actually take it. They like pushed him to because they wanted him to like, you know, take advantage of the like a newer benefit, which was good. So he was encouraged. He did it, and I-- we decided to do it together because the l- the logistics, we couldn't figure it out.
[00:16:54] And it, it was just too difficult. Like, how do you do this all by yourself? And we wanted to figure it out together. And [00:17:00] frankly, Scott wanted to be part of it. Like he wanted to be in it and be as committed and as involved as I was. And I will say, and I preach this all the time, if you can financially pull that off, I highly recommend it because it created a dynamic.
[00:17:15] There's other ways to create this dynamic, but for us, it created this dynamic in our family where there is no default parent, even to this day. It just created this like system where we were all involved in everything. So he was at the doctor's appointments, and he was learning things and, And to this day, it's, I always joke, I have friends who, before they go away for the weekend with leaving their kids behind with their husbands, they have to like prep.
[00:17:39] They have to like make sure they know where everything is. I literally walk out the door and I'm like, "I figure it out. Not my problem anymore." You know, love my kids. But it- it's the, the point being, the point being like that he-- and again, there's other ways to do that. I'm not, you know, I'm not accusing other dads of not being able to do that.
[00:17:56] Shannon Curran: But it is something that kind of set up from the get-go a [00:18:00] situation where we, we have been partners on this 100%, you know, all the way. and that's, that's the kind of parents we wanna be, so. Oh, and then what did you end up doing for daycare 'cause they didn't go to daycare?
[00:18:11] Melissa Chandler: uh, I was out for about... So Scott went back at about three months, and then I stayed out for an additional two and a half months, and that led to Shannon's ultimate breakdown and burnout. great
[00:18:21] Shannon Curran: so glad you have a great relationship with your children and I would never have it be any other way
[00:18:24] Melissa Chandler: Ultimately, it worked out. We're all good.
[00:18:28] Shannon Curran: Worth
[00:18:29] Melissa Chandler: anyway, we had signed them up for a daycare that was, like, near our house. We were-- that we, they were-- we were gonna send them to five days a week at starting at about six months, we were gonna just send them right in. But it was in that timeframe that Scott's mother, who, um, she's, she's single, and she had recently retired being a nurse, she lives in Connecticut, had told us that she wanted to move up to Boston and help us with the kids.
[00:18:56] And so we had this incredible opportunity come about, and again, this is [00:19:00] just, like, luck and, thankful that we have this person in our lives who was able to help us. She actually moved up to Boston and was taking care of our kids exclusively from six months till about two years when we started putting them into part-time daycare.
[00:19:14] in terms of the money, we saved a ton of money.
[00:19:17] and then, uh, also, uh, we were able to put them in part-time English daycare, so the transition wasn't as harsh. And then ultimately, when they went to school, at least, you know, it wasn't... It was a softer landing for them, I feel like, than if, you know, they went after two years, you know, straight to daycare.
[00:19:34] We were able to stagger it a bit, which was nice for us. So yeah, re- it ended up being a really good situation and, you know, again, as you might imagine, you know, relationships with family can be good, can be bad, can be tough at times, and it comes with all of that. But I wouldn't change a thing about it, so
[00:19:49] Mallory Lee: That's amazing. I bet that she, like, looks back at that period of time super fondly as well. You know what I mean?
[00:19:58] Melissa Chandler: Definitely. I [00:20:00] mean, there was a period of time where she knew more than I did what the kids like to eat or anything like that because she was spending so much more time with them during the day than we were. So, and I figured, hey, if it's grandma, then I don't feel so bad about it.
[00:20:15] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:18] We experienced that with our au pair. She lived with us for two years, and she was there when our youngest was born. And with the au pair program, they can't start taking care of the baby until it's three months or six months, I can't remember now. but there was a point in time where I feel like one of the kids along the way, like, called her mom or something. And I- I don't remember which kid it was. It might've been Bennett, our middle kid.
[00:20:47] Shannon Curran: blacked it out.
[00:20:49] Mallory Lee: probably. I, was devastated. I was, like, devastated. but you see it. They're like, "We want you to make eggs the way Valentina [00:21:00] does. We want you to do this the way Valentina does." And I was fine with,picking up some tricks from her.
[00:21:05] Like, didn't mind it at all, but it is a very humbling experience when you realize that someone else is with them for more hours of the day than you. and I mean, it's not that way now, but it, it was crazy back then
[00:21:20] Shannon Curran: Yeah, it's hard. I, uh, some reason found it easier when I sent them to daycare 'cause they were with a bunch of other kids and a bunch of teachers. It's not like one person was raising them, but it is hard. Yeah, I've done every variety of childcare. Well, except the, I think you and I were saying, I haven't done an au pair or home daycare, but I like have had a bunch of different versions.
[00:21:40] But, yeah, I don't think any of them are perfect. I think a lot of them are... Ev-even me, watching them full-time is not perfect, I already told you that.
[00:21:48] but, um, Melissa, I would love to transition to the topic of navigating a kind of like extra needs child. So I know that one of your kids, needs like a, a little [00:22:00] bit of extra support, and I know that this is also a conversation around t-twins are not the same.
[00:22:06] That's the other thing, you had two kids at the same time, but they are, um, they just are two different people, right? And I felt like I watched you navigate a second full-time job. Third, actually. So mom, full-time employee, now full-time advocate, for one of your sons. So I'd love to hear like about your...
[00:22:23] Well, I don't, I don't love to hear it, but I want you to share, about your experience navigating kind of the systems for
[00:22:29] Melissa Chandler: Yeah, no. And I'm happy to be fair- fairly open about it and, It's like you never want anything to be hard for your kids, right? You have these like very innocent small children come into the world, and you just want everything to be wonderful and perfect for them. But then you just learn that just like life for everybody, it's just like you just go through challenges, and you iterate and you grow and, uh, it's, it's the same no matter how old you are.
[00:22:54] And, as you mentioned, so my one son, um, he's on the spectrum, and we learned that [00:23:00] pretty young, and we were able to get him, you know, the proper supports and everything that he needed. And this is my plug, early intervention. It's-- You pay taxes, uh, at least in Massachusetts to support it, and if you ever have a concern, call them.
[00:23:13] It's free and it's-- it doesn't hurt. So highly, highly recommend that. And, starting early is what helped us see the best outcome. So if you saw our kids now, you'd just be like, "These kids are just like, you know, like they're just like every other kid." You know, they have the same like wants and needs and desires, and I credit that to, again, like, he's just like a resilient little kid.
[00:23:36] And then also it's about like the supports in the community that we've developed around our kids has been incredibly helpful to just like, you know, if somebody needs a little... Everybody needs something different, right? So it's like you provide whatever your kids need is basically the idea. You know, call it special needs, call it something else.
[00:23:52] It's the same. It's the same thing. So with that context, yeah, we, we got involved in the system pretty early, and that started with early [00:24:00] intervention. And then from there, once, um, once your kid turns three, you age out of early intervention, and then you get pushed into the public school system, where then you start the IEP process.
[00:24:10] For those who don't know what that mean, individualized education plan. I was actually on a podcast recently where I started using a lot of, um, acronyms and was called out on that. So
[00:24:19] but anyway, like, and to your point, Shannon, like, like all of this to say like it, it struck me, and I like to say that it's what radicalized me honestly about all this stuff, is that I was sitting there and I'm like, "I'm sitting on this pile of privilege," right?
[00:24:33] Like, I have an education, I have a very flexible job, I have the financial means, I have a partner who's super involved in all of this. You know, I have all of these things, and I was struggling. It's just like meetings and advocating. And everybody has their hearts in the right place. But the reality is we live in a system where these types of resources, whatever they may be, you know, depending on the need, are limited, right?
[00:24:57] There's a special education crisis in this country. It doesn't matter [00:25:00] what school district you're in. It's everywhere. It's pervasive. You know, federal funding is, is limited, like on and on and on. It spirals out of control. So it's never one of those things where I point a finger at like any school district or any teacher or any individual.
[00:25:12] It's just the whole system is just like falling apart a bit. And you end up losing kids in the cracks. And lucky for us, we have the ability to kind of like dive in there and be like, "Okay, I'm gonna be there at every meeting. I'm gonna be that squeaky wheel. I'm gonna get the people involved that need to be involved."
[00:25:29] The entire time I'm sitting there thinking, what about somebody who can't do this, who has an hourly job or English isn't their first language or literally anything on that list of things I have to my advantage and can't figure it out because it is like learning a whole new language.
[00:25:43] It is like learning a whole new-- It is, it is not like, it is learning a whole new system of legalese, you know? And we have a, we have somebody who is an expert in special education in our family, coincidentally. We have all these things and we were struggling with it and it's just requires being on top of it.
[00:25:59] So to your point, Shannon, [00:26:00] it's like meetings you have to be there or if you're not there you miss something and then you miss an opportunity to like make the case. Even things like being present in the classroom, making sure the teachers know you like more so than, you know, you might if you didn't have to advocate for things.
[00:26:15] Like you always wanna be there for your kids, but it's like, I feel like extra incentivized 'cause like I know this is going to benefit my kids. the fact that I know that I have this privilege that not everybody has, it just, it infuriates me to a degree.
[00:26:30] So Shannon, as you know, I, I can't sit around and do nothing about that.
[00:26:34] So I joined everything. I joined like the district had a, uh, special education advisory board that I joined. I joined like the, our, like the PCA and everything with the idea that I could help. Even if I can't do anything at the macro level, like I can't control federal funding, I can't control that stuff.
[00:26:51] I can vote, but, I can't really do much about that. But what I can do is be a resource for other parents who are going through this. And I found that that has been my role a lot where, you know, if a [00:27:00] new parent comes to the school or you know, there's somebody who's struggling with this and just needs a friend, I can be that person for people and be like, "Hey, been there, I can help you navigate it."
[00:27:09] But yeah, it's, it's a lot. And if you know anybody who is like working through that process, just give them some grace because they need the flexibility
[00:27:18] Mallory Lee: Yeah. I do have one friend in that position. We used to work together, and she had her son, like two weeks apart between Grayson and her son. And, she was really highly suspecting that he had dyslexia, and it took ages to get a diagnosis. And she was fighting the same battles. She was, you know, going to all the specialists and getting all the tests.
[00:27:46] And, you know, we get coffee maybe every six months or so. And so I watched this thing unfold because it was, "Oh, he's, he's having trouble with reading," to, "Oh, I'm trying to get him tested," [00:28:00] to, "Oh, we finally got a diagnosis," to now he's thriving. But it has taken, like, three years. And so I kind of watched the whole thing unfold and how long it takes, and you do have to be so relentless.
[00:28:13] and so I'm, I'm so happy that you were able to do that, and it sounds like it turned out pretty well so far.
[00:28:19] Melissa Chandler: Yeah.
[00:28:19] And, and like you said, you see them thriving now. It's like people who, who like look, they, they will see our kids. I look at my kids and I'm just like, "Wow, they're doing so well." We're at five. This is the golden time, is what I've learned. Like, I love hanging out with them right now. It's just they're a lot of fun and they're so cute, and they are just thriving and loving learning and things like that.
[00:28:40] And I just think back to two years ago, a year ago even, it was just so different. We would wonder if we were gonna make it. I mean, just even having the two of them alone, forget anything else, it's just like, "Are we going to survive this period of like two toddler boy tw- you know, twin boy [00:29:00] toddlers?" Um, it just...
[00:29:02] And then you add anything on top of it, and it's just to see like the work you put in actually pays off. And now I've got these like two amazing little humans to hang out with, so.
[00:29:13] Shannon Curran: I love it.
[00:29:24] I have one of my closest friends just had, I, I mentioned her at the beginning of this, had found out she was having twins on her second. So she had a girl and then found out she was having twin boys. And they lived in a one bed- or two-bedroom condo in the city, and they had, the boys slept in the living room.
[00:29:29] It was like a ... But we all went out to this, like, dinosaur exhibit. Uh, did you do this, Melissa? The one at the
[00:29:37] Melissa Chandler: No, I haven't done... I know exactly what you're talking about, but we
[00:29:40] Shannon Curran: Oh my God, it was amazing. It was amazing. Her boys are now, like, 18 months or something. They're like the worst, what I believe to probably be the most dangerous age of a baby, a child.
[00:29:48] And it was funny, we walked in, a- all of them just scattered. It was like everyone went in every direction. I was like, "Oh my God, how do you guys do this?" But they're just so used to it now. They're like, "Yep, this is it.
[00:29:58] Melissa Chandler: It's like that [00:30:00] no, that no fear of death age, you know, where they have no idea. And I'm just like, "Oh my gosh." Once you get through that, I feel like it starts to get so much easier.
[00:30:08] Mallory Lee: Yeah.
[00:30:12] We have one that always wanders, and it's Bennett. And we joke that he's going to find a new family because he's just, like, always randomly not with us. And we look around like, "Where's Bennett?"
[00:30:22] Melissa Chandler: It's time "
[00:30:22] Mallory Lee: Ugh, he went to find a new family again." You know, because he's very social, and so he goes and makes friends.
[00:30:28] And he is talking to, like, some other family. We're like, "What are you doing?" You know, " "Get over here." And he likes he wants to try to, like, go outside the hotel and stand on the street and, like, just see the people go by. And we're like, "That's not safe. You can't do that." And one time Brian said, "Do you even know what city you're in?"
[00:30:50] And he, like, had no clue. He's like, "No." And Brian's like, "Okay, you're in Sarasota. You need to know this in case something goes [00:31:00] wrong." Like, "You can't wander away. You don't even know where you are." And so we joke about that a lot 'cause he's always out there mixing it up with, with strangers
[00:31:10] Shannon Curran: They are who they are, right? Like, they just have such specific person-- like, you have three kids, one of them is like that, the other two aren't. You know what I mean? It's funny how they just like are who they are. Sebastian's in this newest phase where he tells me he doesn't want to do something that it's dangerous. Like, he's used that. He's so smart. He's like,
[00:31:28] Melissa Chandler: They're going to use you up against you.
[00:31:30] Shannon Curran: No, Mommy, that's dangerous
[00:31:33] Mallory Lee: He can read you like a book now
[00:31:36] Melissa Chandler: Al- Alex told me in the car yesterday, I was eating like an orange or something like that and I was talking to him and he goes, "Mommy, stop talking while you're eating or you'll choke." And I was like, "Okay, you're
[00:31:49] Shannon Curran: Also, like, fair. You know? Like, I don't, like, you should see what I, I know. It's really, I, yeah. I'm like, "Yep, that's true, buddy." Yeah, it's very, ugh.
[00:31:58] Well, Melissa, we could talk to you forever. I literally could talk to you for three hours, but we should probably do our save of the week. So do you have one?
[00:32:05] Melissa is an avid listener of the pod.
[00:32:07] Melissa Chandler: I do. I prepared for this, of course. I thought, I thought, I thought a bunch about this, and I actually just posted about this today on LinkedIn. It's actually a behavior that saved me. There's a m-- there's so many things, like there's tools and systems and people that are just like, make it possible. But this week, yesterday specifically, something I kind of ingrained is, so my one son, takes dance lessons.
[00:32:30] He loves to dance. He's very-- he's actually very musical generally. He plays piano, all this stuff. Not anything we pushed on him, by the way. He is who he is, to your point. Like, he's just that guy. And he's been in dance, and he had his recital yesterday. And I also had a recital yesterday, is the fun fact about that.
[00:32:48] To be clear, I'm not a dancer, can't dance, don't have rhythm. It's an ongoing joke in my family. Uh, but they offered this caregiver-child dance thing, and I said, "You know what? That sounds cool and fun and something [00:33:00] I could, like, bond with him over." Because finding moments where you spend time with one kid are, rare, particularly when you have twins, because...
[00:33:06] So I was like, "Let me grab on to this." And so we practiced for weeks, and I surprised a bunch of my family members by showing up on stage and doing this ridiculous dance. And he had a blast, and we had a blast. And it was one of those moments where I was like, I am modeling for this kid that doesn't matter how old you are, doesn't matter if you don't know how to do something, trying something new, pushing your boundaries, doing hard things is always worth doing.
[00:33:30] So it was a good reminder that, like, you're modeling it whether you know it or not. So just being you, if you're worried about being a good parent, it's just like you're, doing it. So it was one of those moments, like, to push yourself and, you know, especially as starting a consultancy this year, it's a good reminder to me to be like, it's okay that you kinda don't know what you're doing yet.
[00:33:47] You'll figure it out. So it's been good.
[00:33:50] Mallory Lee: That's amazing
[00:33:52] Shannon Curran: up?
[00:33:54] Melissa Chandler: Can't get
[00:33:54] Mallory Lee: Shannon, do you need to go get a tissue?
[00:33:58] Melissa Chandler: Nice.
[00:33:58] Shannon Curran: I was quiet- I [00:34:00] was quietly crying. You didn't need to call me out
[00:34:04] Mallory Lee: I never call you out. I-- But today I just felt like maybe you actually needed it
[00:34:09] Shannon Curran: I can't be the only person that teared up listening to that adorable story, okay?
[00:34:16] Mallory Lee: I'm sure not. I'm sure there's some, some fun ladies in their cars right now sobbing, so
[00:34:21] Shannon Curran: Like, um, I can give you, my save of the week is related to this, of my tears. I actually had another one, one of which was takeout, which that feels like it doesn't really count. but I was like, "I just can't do a dish this week." Um, but so I think that there's this like part of... So I have a, my second is turning one very soon, and I'm like, I didn't feel this way about my first, but I'm just like really in my feels about mothering and like parenting.
[00:34:46] And I think because my older one is like, it's very obvious that I'm his mom now, right? Like, so hard to like feel that way when they're babies. Like, they're just not like people yet, so you don't get it until they're a little older. but Noah Kahan's new album came out a few weeks [00:35:00] ago, and I was listening to, like, we were just listening to music.
[00:35:03] We love a dance party in my house as well. Uh, also, usually it's just Soda Pop, uh, from K-pop Demon Hunters. But The Orbiter came on, which is like a song on his album that sounds like a love song, but it's really, uh, he's talking about his mom, and this idea that like you are like, you're an astronaut and I'm the moon, right?
[00:35:20] Like this idea that you circle your kids and like you watch them go away and you're like this thing that like is so constant to them, right? Like that you're always there for them. And I just start crying in the kitchen, which is like a totally unreasonable thing to do. and Sebastian came up to me and goes, "Oh, no, Mommy, don't be sad.
[00:35:36] Don't cry." And I th- I had a moment of like, you know, I've worked a lot this week. Mal and I have talked about that. We're both kind of in like times in our jobs where like it's kind of crushing me, and I've had a lot of guilt about not being around enough or like not being, you know, like the things that we feel.
[00:35:55] and seeing him just like recognize me and see me in the room [00:36:00] without me like even being there, I was like, "Okay, I think we're gonna be all right. Like, I think we're gonna be..." Like, and I'm still his mom, you know? Like, even though I don't feel like the perfect version of her this week. So, I think that little moment kind of saved me, just as a reminder that like nothing is permanent and like...
[00:36:18] But other than that, like I'm his mom, and he like doesn't want me to be sad. And then, you know, like it was, it was very sweet. Um, yeah, in my feels. Go, Mal, give us something good.
[00:36:29] Mallory Lee: I kind of want to give a shout-out this week to my silly Oura ring. because, like you said, Shannon, it's been a heck of a week all around and, you know, I wasn't feeling good, like I've been sick and trying to get over that. And then I think that, being a female around our age, you start to really pay more attention to your hormones and just, you know, the cycle of life and, um, the ring really helps me do that.
[00:36:58] And there was one day where I [00:37:00] just felt... I think I texted my sister and I was like, "I'm gonna burn everything down. Like, I just need to burn my life down. Like, this is not... I don't know what's happening." And I was literally spiraling. but then, you know, I look at the ring and I look at the data and I'm like, "Ah, biology is why I feel this way."
[00:37:17] Like, I'm not insane. It's, you know. And it gives you, like, your temperature reading at night, and it tells you kind of where you're at in, in the cycle. And that is weirdly comforting to me because I love data and I love understanding. And so getting that, like, third-party understanding of what's actually happening, I think it allows me to either take it a little easier on myself or snap out of it because I'm like, you know, I'm gonna overcome this or whatever it is.
[00:37:49] Like, I just enjoy looking at that data all the time. And eventually this week, uh, starting yesterday, I went back to normal. So here we are.
[00:37:59] Shannon Curran: [00:38:00] Data shows. I love that.
[00:38:01] I switched from Oura to Whoop last week and I don't know how I feel yet. I'm gonna have to give an update, but I don't know. Sebastian asked me, he goes, "Mommy, you have a collar?" And I was like Well, I was like, "It does look like that." For our audio listeners, I have a black Whoop that looks like, uh...
[00:38:20] Yeah. But I love that too. It was so helpful to me when I was trying to have kids, Mallory. I used my Oura ring religiously. So that was, uh, yeah, I loved it.
[00:38:29] all right, Melissa, we could talk to you forever, and I just love ya. I love ya. So thank you for coming on. I know, best friends. Well, I'm gonna text you guys a picture of what my video looks like.
[00:38:39] Hopefully no one else is seeing
[00:38:40] Shannon Curran: Awesome. All right, Melissa. Well, folks, find Melissa on LinkedIn. Hire her to do all of your comms things. She is, she's the GOAT. [00:39:00] So I will, uh, will talk to you later. Bye.
[00:38:50] Mallory Lee: All right, bye gang.
[00:38:52] Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms,
[00:38:54] Speaker: We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:39:04] Shannon Curran: I feel like I haven't spoken to you in like two weeks because we've both been so buried. And I was just thinking yesterday, like I feel like we normally talk about all these things in real time, but we've, we haven't
[00:39:16] I've been just drowning. Uh, Melissa, where's your topic?
[00:39:20] Melissa Chandler: I'm like really struggling. The screen got really small and I'm like, "Where am I?" I don't even
[00:39:25] Shannon Curran: Oh, so it's gonna record the whole thing, but
[00:39:27] Melissa Chandler: okay. Okay, so I was just like, "What's happening behind me? I don't even understand." Sorry. I'm, I'm
[00:39:31] Shannon Curran: you're fine, you're
[00:39:32] Melissa Chandler: not on camera super often anymore, so