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This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.
Episode 76 (Mark Grapengater)
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[00:00:00]
Meet the Hosts
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Andrew Camp: Hello. Welcome to a special collaboration episode with The Biggest Table, hosted by myself, Andrew Camp, and Feast Days, hosted by Mark Grapengater.
So I'm Andrew Camp. in The Biggest Table, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.
And so Mark, what, what's the Feast Days podcast?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Feast Days is our podcast. It is conversations in hospitality and feasting in the church. And so we love to be able to tell stories of, of what, what people, um, in the church are doing, how they gather people around the table, how they do that either in their ministry or in their personal lives as well.
Andrew Camp: Awesome. And you and I, I think, crossed paths on social media and were sort of beginning to see each other, and then-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: Matt Erickson was like, "Hey." You know, when I interviewed him for my podcast, he was like, "Andrew, you need to reach out to Mark. You guys need to connect."
Mark Grapengater: It was, it was like we locked eyes across a cafeteria and- Yeah
said, "I think we need to get to know each other."
Andrew Camp: We do, yes. [00:01:00]
Mark Grapengater: Or maybe a restaurant. 'Cause- Maybe a bar. Who knows, though? Maybe a
Andrew Camp: re- maybe a bar, maybe a glass of wine. You know?
Mark Grapengater: Or- Do people eat in cafeterias anymore? I don't know where that came from. I don't
Andrew Camp: know.
Mark Grapengater: But
Andrew Camp: okay. I, uh, you and I are both in that generation where- Mm
cafeterias were a thing, and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: they, they, we probably still have unresolved trauma from-
Mark Grapengater: I don't even... Y- uh, hmm, yeah. Definitely.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, but the reason-
Mark Grapengater: That's what this podcast is about today, actually.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, the unresolved- Unresolved trauma ... trauma of high school cafeterias. Yeah. And which clique did you- Oh
fall into?
Mark Grapengater: Can I sit here? Is this table open? No.
Andrew Camp: Is this table open? Yeah. Pretty girl across the way, I'm too shy- Yeah ... to talk to you, but-
Mark Grapengater: Ex- always. Always. Still.
Andrew Camp: Still.
Yes. Uh, I'm glad we're both awkward.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Um, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Uh, but the reason I think you and I connected is you and I share a common passion, where we've both been to seminary, and we've both worked in fine [00:02:00] dining.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: And so we both have this common story of, okay, who are we, and how does- ... food operate? Yeah. You know?
Um, and not wanting a common, or maybe the, uh, traveling a road less traveled- Yes ... of what- Yeah ... ministry or food might look like, and hospitality. Mm-hmm. Um- Yeah ... so, you know. Maybe for my listeners, what, how, what's your story?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Um, I, I would come home from, like, high school and watch f- food or, yeah, Food Network and other food shows, and it was just kinda something, something to put on kind of a deal as I was unwinded from the day.
And, um, and then going, went to college at Kansas State, studied abroad in Costa Rica, and Food Network was one of the few show or t- channels that was still in English- Yeah ... that I could watch and understand and give my brain a break. Uh, but I lived in a dorm, um, and so I had cafeteria food and didn't have, uh, my own kitchen until I went to [00:03:00] seminary in Chicago.
And really, you know, you have to eat s- to survive, and so that became my hobby while I was in, uh, in seminary. And I'd come home and make gnocchi for, you know, three hours for myself. Uh, after studying Greek and Hebrew. It was very normal, I feel like. Uh, And then I realized you can gather people around the table too and share the food.
Mm-hmm. You don't just have to eat it all yourself. And so I began to do that, and then graduated seminary. And, uh, a v- very dear friend of mine, Kevin, who's at the church that I was, uh, at said, um, "Why don't we go out to dinner?" Um, and he was, he let me stay with him as I transitioned from campus housing off to, to my own apartment and, um, while I was looking for a place.
And he said, "This is gonna be the best meal of your life." And I was like, "Well, I'm sure it won't be," 'cause I'm very s- very skeptical. Uh, but at that time it certainly was. It was, uh, 13 courses. I never saw- Mm ... a menu or a bill. Um, and Kevin walked in with a case of [00:04:00] wine, and, um, it was, uh, the restaurant was Bon Soirée.
Um, in Logan Square, and it was wonderful, and ate there, uh, several times over the next year and got to know the chef, and he needed a pantry chef. And I had interned at a church, wasn't really the... Post-seminary wasn't the cleanest, um, experience- Mm ... um, getting into kind of a, a typical church, you know, ministry job.
And I really wanted to stay in Chicago, but I ended up working at this restaurant that eventually earned a Michelin star. Um, most of the, the cooking and things that I do now, um, continue to... I'm influenced by those, you know, six, seven months that I was there. Right. And, um, just learned a lot. It was a great environment.
I know not everybody has great kitchen experiences, but, um, it was really, um, quite, quite great for me. Um, and that began... That put me down a path of, like, experiencing hospitality [00:05:00] at that level, and it... And I truly believe they function this way, that hospitality wasn't just a transaction for them, but it was a long-lasting relationship.
Mm. And doing it in that way, in that level really shaped my own ministry and my life, and, um, my... Now that I'm married and my wife worked in restaurants as well, um, and, uh, fine dining. And so it has just really shaped, uh, who we are, um, even, even today. So yeah.
Andrew Camp: Wow. , Thank you. You know- Yeah ... like you said, yeah, not everybody has had that- No
beautiful experience, you know. Some of us, um, you know, many cooks have had trauma- Yeah ... from the kitchen, you know.
Mark Grapengater: Yep. Um- Not just from the food. Uh, but, um, I hear of other people's experiences and I'm just like, that... The experience of trauma, um, that most people, most cooks have experienced in a restaurant, I've experienced more in the church.
Um, and so [00:06:00] my, my experience has been flip-flopped a little bit, um, from, from what I would like it to be and what I'd like to us as a church to be known for. But, um, so.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. I-
Mark Grapengater: Maybe that's this podcast, maybe it's a different one, but
Andrew Camp: No, but like, yeah, like I think of, you know, some of the chefs I've worked for have been better leaders than some of- Mm-hmm
the leaders in the church I've seen.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um-
Mark Grapengater: How do I say this carefully? Um-
Andrew Camp: Yeah, how do I say this carefully?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know, where they, they, they- You know, yes, there was consequences for being under-prepped for the service- Mm-hmm ... but afterwards there was repair and there was- Yeah ... "Hey," like, "How do we help you?"
And the only thing... You know, I remember one chef, the first chef I worked for, Chef Gary. Um, he's still Chef Gary to me, will always be Chef Gary. Yeah. Right?
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Yep. Sort of like a Sunday school teacher, you know? Yeah. He's al- he's always mister, you know? And-
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: Um, but Chef Gary, you know, [00:07:00] there was one night messed up royally, had under-prepped, um, and you know, afterward he's sitting down with me talking and he's like, "Hey, Andrew, the only thing that separates me from you is I have 13 more years of effing up than you."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Like, you're like- Oh, okay. Like
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. That- Well, I think, like, I think that brings up a good point, 'cause w- like, failure happens in the kitchen almost every night. Yeah. And you sit down at the end of the, of service, and you go, "That was great. That was terrible. How do we do better the next day?" I think the trajectory in ministry is so much more intangible and, like, uh, when, when it, when you messed up, so it feels so much like a bigger deal- Right
I guess. But, like, the failure is still there. Yeah. So that's... It's, it just is more acute, um, more tangible in the kitchen life. Mm-hmm. So yeah.
Andrew Camp: Well, and- Yeah ... you know, like, I think there's that, y- like you said, the feeling of acuteness within ministry of like, hey, [00:08:00] my interaction with this person when they're going- Mm-hmm
through a crisis, if I mess it up, it's... There- Yeah ... feels a lot more at stake.
Mark Grapengater: Um- Oh, yeah. Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: but at the same time, you know, we're human, so how do we learn, you know- Yeah ... and grow? You know?
Mark Grapengater: I don't know. I, I don't do that, but no.
Andrew Camp: No. Right. Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yes. Um- Yeah ... but failure is, like, like, n- we need to have a better ability to have that conversation- Mm-hmm
um, and be a part of our vocab. I think, um, when we talk about failure, like, that tells us and reminds us that, uh, we have a need for a savior. Right. Um, and to admit that, um, can be really hard for, I think, the church in America today, um, to go, "Oh, yeah, we don't have all of our life all put together." Um, and, and that's okay, 'cause Jesus did.
Um-
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah
Andrew Camp: So. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and
Mark Grapengater: I, you know- What was your sto- Sorry, go ahead.
Andrew Camp: No, no, go ahead. Yes.
Mark Grapengater: Uh, [00:09:00] what was your story going from seminary and, and cooking in restaurants as well?
Table as Formation
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Andrew Camp: Yeah, so I, um, grew up around the table. I think, you know, my mom and my dad prioritized the table, whereas, you know- Mm-hmm
like, we didn't just eat dinner together every night. Yeah. We ate breakfast together every morning. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. And so when, even when my sister, oldest sister started high school and had to be there for zero period at 7:00- Mm ... o'dark hour, it's like- Oh,
Mark Grapengater: gosh. ...
Andrew Camp: you know, we were all up at s- you know, having breakfast at 6:30, dressed, you know?
Right. Yeah ... even though we didn't have to be at school till 8:30. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, but, uh, you know, so that just operated, you know? And my mom felt her calling was to be a stay-at-home mom. Mm-hmm. Um, so she baked bread. She baked pies. You know, to this day, when she makes- Yeah ... a strawberry rhubarb pie, it is- A taste of...
Ha- you know, it's a taste of heaven Yeah. Yeah Um, but, um, when I, after I went [00:10:00] to undergrad at Biola University, studied Bible, um, moved to China right after college to be, um, a youth pastor for missionary kids in a small town of three million- Mm-hmm ... um, in China.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: But we were known, you know, Kunming, China at the time was a, you know, sort of...
We were removed from Beijing. Um, you know, there were still horse-drawn carriages throughout. Oh,
Mark Grapengater: wow.
Andrew Camp: But, um, while there, I shared in a lot of meals, um, with missionaries and other missionaries, and- Mm-hmm ... began to notice, like, we linger at the table. Yeah. Um, we're not quick to leave the table, especially even though, like, the couches are two feet away and way more comfortable than a dining room chair.
Yeah. Like, I've never met a dining room chair where I'm like, "Oh, I could sit in this for hours." Like- Right,
Mark Grapengater: right ...
Andrew Camp: I'm just, I'm gonna take a nap here, you know? Like, there's no reclining in our, you know, modern- No ... dining room tables. No. But- Hmm ... we still stayed. Mm-hmm. And so that just had me think, [00:11:00] pondering what is food, what is table, like, what is this all about?
I was cooking more. Mm-hmm. I actually learned, I actually cooked a lot of cheesecakes in China. Oh, fun. And loved cooking. You know, they weren't cheap to make- Yeah ... but people loved them- No ... and it was a way to- Yeah ... cook, and I had a, just a little toaster oven, um, to cook it in, and it fit perfectly- Mm-hmm ... my springform pan.
Mark Grapengater: Nice.
Andrew Camp: Um, but yeah, it was at those moments, and then it was reading Eugene Peterson- Mm-hmm ... um, who I fell in love with in China as a wise person that needs to be read and digested- Yeah ... more than, you know. 'Cause in undergrad, we made fun of The Message as, like- Yep ... you know, this is just garbage. And little did I know that Eugene was wise beyond his years and continues-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Uh, Eugene Rest in peace, but I, man, that, I had a man crush on Eugene. Yeah. You know? He became the guy I wanted to be, right? Like, you know- Yeah, yeah ... he's a guy that could, could quote the deepest [00:12:00] theologians, but then he says he could also be comfortable on a river canoeing- Mm-hmm ... with men. And I'm like- Yeah
"Okay, there's something here that I want in life."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um-
Mark Grapengater: Absolutely ...
Andrew Camp: but it was one of his books where he said the Gospel writers are most fond of telling stories of Jesus around the table.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: And that just lit the world up for me of like- Oh, interesting. Yeah ... "Okay, now there's something here." Like, I had never seen it in scripture before, but- Yep
once I read that sentence, food, table, um, hospitality to a lesser extent just became everywhere for me, you know?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: It's like all of the sudden I was buying a Nissan Altima and saw a Nissan Altima everywhere I went. Yep. You know? Um, so then post-China, was in seminary, still loved cooking. Um, started- Mm-hmm
cooking and sharing meals with my grandpa- Yeah ... um, which was a huge formative- repair relationship- Yeah ... where we would just sit for four hours drinking [00:13:00] wine, eating food, and he was like, "Anything you wanna cook, I'll foot the bill for you and I'll get the wine." Uh- Wow ... which, yeah. Um, and it was great. Um, and just felt called to go to culinary school and in the midst of seminary because why- Yeah
what else would you do in seminary besides- Sure, add
Mark Grapengater: something on to it.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, like sort of like going home and cooking for three hours. Yep. And you're okay, you know?
Mark Grapengater: Yep. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, but it was just a step of faith, and so it just, yeah, it's been this journey of trying to figure out what is food, what is the table.
Um, I- I'm an over thinker, so you know, it's been, meant reading every book that comes out. Mm-hmm.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, which then led to this podcast and connecting with more people and realizing, oh, more people are considering the table- Mm-hmm ...
Mark Grapengater: in
Andrew Camp: ways that are formative for us, so.
Mark Grapengater: It feels very counterformative. I think we talked beforehand of, of the book that you're currently reading, but like it's, it's a counterformation to, to sit down at the table and to linger and to- Right
spend time there, [00:14:00] and to put the effort in making the food.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Mark Grapengater: Um, and there's a number of, you know, Instagram people that I follow that are like, "That's how people show legitimate love to one another, is by cooking a meal." It's not, you know, that's, that's a valid thing to do. Mm-hmm. Um, where I think our, our culture always, like we have three kids from seventh grade to first grade.
They're all in after school activities. Those are all scheduled when we would normally sit down at the table and have a meal. There is nothing conducive, uh, about the American modern life that makes it easy for that to take place- No ... to sit down and have a family meal. Yeah. But like, like your, your parents did for you growing up, like we, we will rage against that and make sure that that can take place so that we sit down regularly.
We're not perfect on it, but- No ... um, as often as we can, we are sitting down at our table in our home with a [00:15:00] home-cooked meal. Could be the frozen, uh, Mm-hmm. Yeah ... uh, wontons or whatever, uh, the dumplings that we buy from Costco- Yep ... uh, 'cause we need something quick. Right. Um, or it can be something that's, you know, much longer, has sat on the stove for, for a long time and, but, you know, that's- Yep
we make that a massive priority in our, our lives.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: So.
Andrew Camp: Likewise. Yeah. And we have our go-to simples. Ours-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: is the, uh, orange chicken, frozen orange chicken from Sam's Club. Mm-hmm. Our girls love it, like, you know.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: It's, you know, yeah, and like you said, sometimes it just needs to be quick. Um, because schedules demand it.
Um-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: you know, so yeah, and then there's the place for the three-hour love- Yeah ... you know, token and- ... you know, starting the pizza dough the night before so we can have pi- Right ... you know, like, you know.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: There's a place for everything. Um-
Mark Grapengater: I think that's key, though. Like, start w- like, it always felt like, like bread in particular, like doing it the day of always feels rushed.
Right. But stuff like that, you can, you can [00:16:00] do the night before. Mm-hmm. Takes like 30 minutes maybe. Right. And then you just pull it out when you need it the next day. It's like those are the convenience, like picking up some of those little things have, have transformed a lot of what, how we eat actually.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. No, and, and, and for us, it's menu planning. Like-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Yeah ... we need to menu plan on Saturday, get the groceries. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that way come Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, when we're both working- Yeah ... you know, we don't have to come home and think, "Okay, what do we wanna make?"
Mark Grapengater: Right.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, and make bad choices for our bodies.
Mm-hmm. And, you know- There's
Mark Grapengater: intentionality behind it. Is that what you're saying?
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Right. And I, yeah, like, it, yeah, and, and it works for what my, Claire and I need for us. Mm-hmm. You know? And I realize- Yeah ... not everybody can, you know, that's not how everybody can operate. Yeah. But for us, it works. Mm-hmm.
And so, like, you know, again, it's finding what works- Yeah ... and how to set up that rhythm so that you can then make the choices you want. Are
Mark Grapengater: there sacrifices that you make in that? Like, are there things that you guys choose that you can't do because of, "No, we're sitting down for a family meal [00:17:00] tonight"?
Andrew Camp: It hasn't come up yet.
Our girls are still- Okay ... you know, we're, they're eight and 10, uh- Okay ... third and fifth grade. Yeah. Um, the activities haven't converged yet on-
Mark Grapengater: Okay. Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: dinner. I think they're coming. Our youngest- Mm ... loves ballet- Okay. Yeah, mm-hmm ... um, and does ballet, and as she gets older, the classes get later.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, and so what that's gonna look like, you know, and then once our oldest starts middle school next year, what, what's that gonna look like?
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: Um, but, you know, they appreciate it, and they, you know, they're spoiled with home-cooked meals, and they're like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ... "
Andrew Camp: Oh, I just want Daddy's home cook- I just want home-cooked." You know? Like, "Can we not eat out?" Like, "Can we just- Yeah ... have a home-cooked meal?" Like...
Mark Grapengater: Yes. Yes.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Or they're like, "Daddy makes everything better.
I can't eat this." Mm. You know? I'm like- ... "Okay. If we go over to somebody's house, just be polite," you know? And-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. You... Actually, it is, it is also a skill to, like, [00:18:00] be a guest in that, that- Yeah ... space. And we, like, I learned that on, in Costa Rica as a missionary, like, someone invites you h- over into their home.
They make something for you. There's almost always food involved. Yeah. Um, and it might not be great. Um- Mm-hmm ... and it might be liver and onions, and you're eating liver and onions that night. Um- Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Right. I don't... I- Have you run into this? 'Cause, you know, when people learn I'm a chef, they're like, "Hey, we'd love to have you over, but..."
You know, it's, you know, always that. And I'm like, "No, like, the, it's not about what we eat. Like, we just wanna- Yep ... eat with you, share with you, share life together." And like any meal I don't have to cook and clean up after, it's a great meal. Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I do run into that. I r- as you're talking, I'm reminded of the Bourdain quote, like, uh, "Meals create society, but it's rarely the food.
Um, like it's spending time around the table together." Yeah. I'm paraphrasing. He says it more poetically, but- Right ... so we, we do a, a [00:19:00] dinner every year to benefit our s- our school. Um, and so we auction off tickets. Um, and we were approached to do it, and it had kind of been a pig roast beforehand, and that, that family was leaving, uh, their, their youngest was graduating from elementary school, and they said, "You, you're throwing parties.
You... Would you wanna do this?" And I was like, "Yeah. I've done pig roasts, though. Like, I wanna reach back and do a coursed dinner." Mm. And so we started doing that, but, like, that's... Like, I execute that on a fairly high level- Right ... um, once a year. Like Yeah. I'm not cooking that every, every week, and people are surprised.
Stacy does most of the cooking in our house, and, um, and you know, I do that a few times a week, but she's the one setting the table for our family usually. Uh, but they're like, "Yeah, we wanted to have you over, but, you know, you're such a great chef, and well..." I'm like, "I, I know how to cook, but, like, I just, I, I would love to spend time at your table.
Yeah, that's not-" Yeah. Um, and we, we've t- [00:20:00] I've tried to, like, except for some things, like the, the large dinner that we do or some of the parties that we do, like, we just wanna have people over and do a normal dinner- Yeah ... um, for them, just to remove some of the pretension and, and that, 'cause we wanna be invited over.
I think there's that ba- like, so I did my dissertation or my doctorate at the Eugene Peterson Center, so I'm very in line with you- Yeah ... on, uh, his influence, and experienced a lot of the same. As you said, like, undergraduate was like the message. That's not a... That's what I read most of the time right now.
So Yeah. Uh, like it just, it, it speaks on a whole nother level, like kind of the guttural level. Mm-hmm. Um, but I wrote my dissertation talking about hospitality and the pastoral vocation, and got to the, my, my main metaphor, like Matt Erickson's is the pastor is a gardener, mine's pastor is host. Mm. Um, and as soon as I was done, I felt like God said, "What about the pastor [00:21:00] is guest?"
Yeah. And to be, to, like, give up our position of power and to really be in a, a vulnerable position, to sit down at table, at the, someone else's table, and to be fed by them, to just offer ourselves, that's another level of vulnerability and intimidation, and, um- Mm-hmm ... that can be just as challenging for us, I think, today as well.
Oh, I think,
Andrew Camp: I think more challenging, especially for those of us who are pastors or leaders, right? Mm-hmm. Like, 'cause then we're re- relinquishing control.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know? And, you know, all the books are like, "Okay, who can you invite over?" Yeah. Or I remember in the missional movement of like, "Hey, have your people over," like-
Mark Grapengater: Yep
Andrew Camp: but how do we go into the world as guests? Um- Yeah. Well, and w- yeah ... and I think David Fitch talked about that in one of his books, like Faithful Presence- Mm-hmm ... or-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: sort of that third way of being, of like, okay, how do you go into the world as a guest?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Uh.
Mark Grapengater: I think if we wanna have a place at the table, we have to have that.[00:22:00]
Mm-hmm. Um, and it also means us giving up, um, well, having more intention of having space in our lives, uh, to be able to, to, to enter into other people's lives. Yeah. Um, especially you, you're in Arizona. In, in Denver, like, we're a bunch of cowboys here. Everybody's from... The question here is where are you, w- uh, where are you from?
It's not like, "What high school did you go to?" Or, you know- Okay ... anything like that. Like up, like St. Louis is always, "What high school did you go to?" But, um, it's like, "Where are you from?" But there's n- there's... It took us, it was 18 months, I think, before we were invited to somebody else's home that we didn't know before we moved here.
Wow. Um, and it took like in, like just having that space and continually inviting people over so that we could get to the place where we were being invited to other people's homes, and then leaving space for that. So we're not gonna do something this [00:23:00] weekend because somebody's gonna have us over. We're, we're gonna hope that that happens.
I don't know. Um- ... it happened last weekend and it was wonderful. It was great. It was- Mm-hmm ... we hung out and pretty much had cheese and charcuterie and wine and just hung out on the back porch. It was great. So.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Love it. Yeah. But it, like, it is a challenge, right? Like, you know- Mm-hmm ... my wife and I long to be those people, but then we realized with, you know, careers, with kids, like the pull is hard- Mm-hmm
and you're... You know, my wife's a psychologist, so the emotional, intellectual demands- Oh, yeah ... on her soul are real. And so like how to- Yeah ... like, okay, this is what we aim for, but being gentle enough with ourselves- Yeah ... to not, you know, be like, "Oh, we should be doing better."
Mark Grapengater: So you're saying you need grace also?
Andrew Camp: I need grace. Yes, yes. Yeah. As much as I love the table and want people over, I'm like, "I'm exhausted."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Like, "I can't. I can't do
Mark Grapengater: that." Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Um-
Mark Grapengater: Absolutely, [00:24:00] yeah. We, we try to schedule space in there for that as well. We're really bad at... I mean, we are really terrible at giving our own ourselves that because we're American Protestants that have a work ethic and all of those things.
Yep. Uh, but th- th- Even extending hospitality to us, like the, the fall, right, like our relationship with God is broken, our relationship with others is broken, our relationship with ourself is broken as well. Yeah. And so to be able to give ourselves hospitality- Mm-hmm ... um, and a space, you know, H- Henry Nouwen says, "Hospitality is, uh, creating space where strangers can enter, um, and change can take place."
Like, we have to give ourselves space in these things as well. Um, and if we don't do that, I don't think we can extend that to others, um, either, so.
Andrew Camp: M- no. No. You know, and then m- we're big routine people. We like our routine. Mm-hmm.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm. You know?
Andrew Camp: Uh-huh. And our girls like their routine, you [00:25:00] know, and any time- Yeah
we throw off the routine, you know.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Things, things can go sideways quick, right?
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh- Do you guys have, like, do you schedule, you know, this night of the week we're not gonna have people over, it's only family, or this is always an open night for us to be able to have people over, or?
Andrew Camp: We're not that intentional yet, Mark.
Okay. I hate to- You know, we're, it's... You know?
Mark Grapengater: We talk about it. We're not that intentional either, but we try to. Yeah. So, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Right. You know, 'cause it's, we- Like you s- mentioned earlier, the demands of life in American culture-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ... you
Andrew Camp: know, compound upon us to where all of a sudden we're like, "Hey, every weekend is already booked through-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah
Andrew Camp: Christmas," it feels like.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Or like there's an activity already happening. Oh, yeah. You know? And-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: um, you know, and, and again, it's... Some of it's good, right? Like, you know- Mm-hmm ... this October, like my wife always does a re- personal retreat down in Phoenix- Mm-hmm ... at a [00:26:00] monastery or a nunnery. Yeah,
Mark Grapengater: yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, and then I go to Theology Beer Camp every year- Yeah
in October, which... Then a- you know, those are two weekends. Same,
Mark Grapengater: same thing.
Andrew Camp: Same thing. They're both good for the soul. Like, yeah- Yeah, yeah ... diff- different, um, different avenues. Um-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: but then that just, those are two weekends we're both away, and then- Yeah ... at the end of October she has a psychological or a psychology- Mm-hmm
gathering.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know? And, and so it's like all the, all of a sudden our October's already-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: full, where we're gone every weekend.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Again, good stuff, but-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: what then does... How does that function then for us to be hospitable or to cultivate the relationships-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: we need to
Mark Grapengater: cultivate? Well, I mean, it, it...
If it recharges and energizes you- Right ... um, it feeds you- Yeah ... if we can continue that metaphor. So that allows you, that gives you the energy and the space to be able to have that for others as well. Why do, why do people schedule every... Every organization [00:27:00] schedules their retreats and their conferences in October.
I don't understand, but- I
Andrew Camp: know ...
Mark Grapengater: it's... 'Cause I wanna do all of them. That's my problem. Right. I wanna go- No ... to all the things, but yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. So. I think, you know, school has started.
Mark Grapengater: Uh-huh.
Andrew Camp: You know, people are in a routine, and then, you know, it's before the holidays 'cause you can't do anything- Right ... November.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Um, you know, 'cause, you know, November, December doesn't exist- No ... I
Mark Grapengater: don't feel like. Mm-mm, not at
Andrew Camp: all. Um, and then, you know, it's the new year, and then you're like, "Okay, when do we...?"
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, it's... Yeah, it's crazy.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know. Yeah. Or you look at February and, you know, February in Phoenix is delightful, so people should come to, you know, Phoenix in
Mark Grapengater: February.
It's usually when we have our... Our presbytery goes to Phoenix quite often in February, so-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ... it's
Mark Grapengater: great.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, yeah. I'm working with Caleb Campbell, a pastor down in, uh, Phoenix. Uh-huh. Uh, he wrote Disarming Leviathan- Um, but he, y- you know, we're putting together a conference for churches [00:28:00] across Arizona, and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm
Andrew Camp: everybody we reach out to, like, "Hey, you wanna come to Phoenix in February?" They're like, "Yes. Yes. How do I- "Yes, please. Yes. Yes. Here, here's my honorarium, but it's up for discussion." "But yes, I wanna come to Phoenix." Like
Mark Grapengater: It is really the... I mean, and it's only 90 degrees in Ph- in February. Yeah,
Andrew Camp: yeah. No joke.
Mark Grapengater: That's- That is, it is not, it's much more comfortable than, uh, even Colorado during February, so. Right.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Camp: But, so then as we think about the table, you know, and as we think about the world we're living in today-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: how, h- how do you see the table- functioning as a counter formative, counter cultural, counter narrative
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm
Andrew Camp: to, to our culture, both within the church and, you know, maybe broader.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. I think, I mean, I, I first go for, like, our family is formed by spending time around the table. Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] Um, and I know people have different family stories of why they spend time at the table or why they don't. Um, but that's where we instill our values in our kids. That's where I feel like we give them identity and dignity, uh, for what they're bringing.
And again, like, our youngest is six. Sometimes that's a lot of screaming, um- ... and not sitting at the table- Mm-hmm ... which drives me insane. But, um, we still gather. Like, he, he can act up that way, and we still want him at the table. Um, and so we try to instill that. And that formation there just says, for us, we say, "You have a place here."
Like, there's always a seat available for you, no matter what's going on. We had a, um, disciplinary issue last year towards the end of the year, um, with our son in sixth grade, and it was one of those, like, it just got way blown out of pro- [00:30:00] proportion, um, by the school and by us, uh, 'cause we, 'cause nobody fully understood what took place.
Um, but I made dinner. We had all the long conversations. We had all the difficult things. I made dinner. We sat down at the table, and w- like, it was one of the most beautiful times that we had. Everybody just was engaged. Everyone was talking. There was a lot of laughter. There was a lot of joy. And it was one of those things where we could say, "Yeah," like, it felt like our lives blew up a little bit today, but we know we can come to this place and sit down and share, uh, a meal with one another, share our lives with one another.
Um, and it really, you know, um, yeah, it was really, really wonderful and recentering for us. And I think that's what the table is supposed to do is, uh, 'cause e- it feels like so much of the world wants to [00:31:00] take from us, take- Yeah ... um, our digni- dignity, our identity, um, to give us counter values, um, and- I, I, I go back to the Eucharist all the time.
Like, this is... What we do at the table nightly is sacramental. And it's not the sacrament, but, like, the formation of what Christ said was, "Eat this meal. I will, uh, reveal myself and reveal more of you-
Andrew Camp: Mm ...
Mark Grapengater: through this meal that we get to share. And you share in my life, I share in your life." Um, and, and the world doesn't wanna share most of the time.
They wanna take, "You need to spend more money. You need to be more scared. You need more, be more fearful." Um, and for our family, the way we try to practice it is we get to bring people into- we get to bring our family, and then we get to bring other people around the table and say, "We value you. We've invited you to spend time with us [00:32:00] around the table."
Um, and it's not just a refueling, uh, uh, time for us. Um, it is, how do we sit down and have a long conversation and, and we're not just playing games. We're, like, hearing about what's going on in, in your life. It's holding space for one another. Mm. And it doesn't feel like, you know... Even Instagram I think has, has increased their reel limit, but I'm not, I'm not watching anything over, like, 30 seconds.
Like
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Um, but at the table, we get to spend that, that long time, 'cause there's- Yeah ... and it's flesh and blood, right? Like, it's- Yeah ... it's, we're material people, and, like, we can, we can be touched and seen and, um... And so that is, that is a part of what we're doing in that, so. Mm. That's, that's my experience of it.
Uh, uh, how do you guys practice that?
Andrew Camp: I think similar. You know, it's a place where we gather, and sometimes it is messy and- Mm-hmm ... sometimes the kids are hard, [00:33:00] you know? Yeah. Um, that 4:00 to 7:00 period is, the bewitching hours are real. Yeah. Um, and there are moments, there are nights more often than I wish I admit that, you know, where I lose my cool and-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah
Andrew Camp: you know, but I'm like, "I just, I, I made this dinner. Like, can we just- Mm-hmm ... sit in peace, like, once?" Like-
Mark Grapengater: Can we sit, eat in silence?
Andrew Camp: Y- yeah, you know? Yeah. But-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: then, you know, there are those nights where it's like, okay, like, we, we're here, we're talking about the day. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, sometimes we'll play games, you know, like Two Truths and a Lie.
Yeah. Which when y- when you're a family, like, you know, my wife and I start have to, like, reaching back deep into the depths and- But then it provides fun-ness for our girls, you know? Mm-hmm. And something, "Oh," like, "What? Tell me more-" Yeah ... "Daddy," you know?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, but, you know, and then it's, it's a place where there's no phones.
Like, we're not-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: you know, f- I make sure, I try my best- Mm-hmm,
Mark Grapengater: yeah ...
Andrew Camp: um, to put the phone [00:34:00] out, you know, like, not even in my pocket, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, just so if it vibrates or rings, I'm not tempted or-
Kids Cooking and Hosting
---
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: to make sure then that it's silent so, like, we don't hear the notifications- Yeah ... coming. Um, you know, but it's not always easy, but I hope that our girls are beginning to sense like, "No, this is-" This is good and we like it and-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah
Andrew Camp: um, as they've gotten older, we're like, "Hey, anything you guys want for dinner?" Mm-hmm. To involve them in the discussion of- Yeah ... hey, what are we gonna eat? Um, to give them some choice. Um-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: you know, and personhood in this so that they're not- Yeah ... like, "I'm always just eating what mom and dad tell me to eat."
Mark Grapengater: Right, right.
Andrew Camp: Um, and then there are still those guides-
Mark Grapengater: Have you got them cooking yet?
Andrew Camp: We... Somewhat, yes. Okay. They will do some -
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: cooking. You know, like, my daughter loves key lime pie, and so for- Wow ... most of her birthdays she wants a key lime pie. Mm-hmm. And so th- for her birthday she made the key lime pie.
Like she wanted to make it herself.
Mark Grapengater: That's awesome. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, and it's a fairly easy pie, which is great. Um- Yeah ... but our, like, this past weekend my [00:35:00] wife and I were on a backpacking trip and my parents were in town, and my dad made ribs. And they, we have this corn pudding recipe that's delicious- Yeah ... and easy, pretty easy to make, and so my daughter made it.
Yeah. Burned herself on the oven. But hey, you know, like- This
Mark Grapengater: is how you learn.
Andrew Camp: It's how you learn. Um, but she- Yeah ... loved it and, you know-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: ate leftovers.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Um, you know, so I think it's, it's that. And then it is at times, you know, we have then some friends that about once a quarter we'll invite over and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm
Andrew Camp: we let the girls just watch video all night, but we- Yeah. ... we share in a meal together, linger. There's usually two- Yeah ... bottles of wine. They bring a nice bottle. Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: I'll think of something fun to cook for that, you know? So it gives me that outlet- Yeah ... to create and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: experiment. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but, um, you know, people, we enjoy it, you know?
Yeah. Have conversations, um-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: together. And so I think it's, yeah, I like what you [00:36:00] said, it's a recentering of coming together.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Table as Counterculture
---
Andrew Camp: Um, saying, "Okay, here's who we want to be." Um, because, you know, as I've thought about it, something that's been lingering in my brain, and I don't know how this looks into practice, but, um, was talking with some friends and we were like, "Okay, how do we- counter an empire narrative without using empire tactics.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, like I think I hear t- you know, when people wanna rail against Christian nationalists or the u- abuse of power too quickly, we just use the same tactics it feels like at times.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Um, and I wanna speak truth to power, and I want to have those, you know, make sure leaders know, uh, hold our leaders accountable both within the church and outside the church.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: But how do I still show love to my neighbors-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: that may disagree strongly with me, and I may disagree strongly with them?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And I wonder if the table is that place where when we sit down, [00:37:00] you know, and can, like you said with Henri Nouwen, and create that space- Yeah ... where change can occur.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: You know, or they can create, they can, the creation of free space so that they become who God created them to be- Yeah ... not who I want them to be.
Mark Grapengater: Right.
Andrew Camp: Right. Um, like, I, I, that just has me lingering of like, okay, what, how do we counter, speak against empire and, you know, rage against the empire without abuse tactics?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, rage against the machine. Um, no, uh, Yeah ... I listened to them a lot in high school. That informed some of my, um, my being. But, um, yeah, I, I think the table is, is the place... It, it m- it might not do the whole job.
Andrew Camp: No. Right.
Mark Grapengater: But I think it's gonna do a lot of it for us. Um, that's what we believe.
That's how we practice our lives. That's what our- Mm-hmm ... ministry looks like, is sharing our table. Yeah. And some of that is also [00:38:00] we, like, I think, like, pushing out the, the empire wants results. The empire wants a timeline. The empire wants metrics. Mm-hmm. Um, and so in our ministry, we've had to change a lot of what our, what the typical metrics would be.
Mm-hmm. Um, not growing bigger, but growing deeper. Um, uh, who's it? Uh, shoot, I'm gonna totally forget. Uh, Andy, um- The Andy, um, who, uh- Andrew Root? Yeah. No, not Andrew Root. Uh, there's another one. They're all Andy, I guess. Um- Yeah. But he has a thing on, like, we're not going after, uh, impact, we're going after fruitfulness.
Um- Mm-hmm ... and, you know, impact is a scientific formula of, uh, power over time, and so more power over less time is a greater impact. Um, and I don't think we can totally throw out the [00:39:00] word impact, but understanding that scripture gives us fruitfulness, and so that... You know, I haven't been, but you can go to the Garden of Gethsemane and see, um, olive trees that were planted in 70 AD after the fall of Jerusalem when when- Huh
things were replanted. Or you were in, you were in Portugal and, and Spain, you can see vines that have been there for, you know, hundreds of years and- Right ... it takes four years before they're established to get good fruit and- Yep ... like these are the images that scripture gives us to be able to understand what our life looks like.
And so I was... We struggle with that. We're, I mean, we're in Denver, it's hard soil. Um, we're not seeing conversions, you know, weekly kind of a thing. Um, we're not baptizing thousands of people. Um, we... And so we were s- just in our own lives struggling with what fruitfulness looks like, and, uh, a friend of mine reframed it for me that we are the [00:40:00] ones who are bearing fruit in, um, in our place, in that we're the v- vine, uh, or we're the, we're the branches.
I'll try to be- Yeah ... exacting on on, on Jesus' metaphor. Yeah. But we're the branches as bearing the fruit, uh- Mm ... for other people to drink deeply. Um- Right ... and that, that begins to change a place. Um- Mm ... some of the things we do in our neighborhood b- have become like a liturgical rhythm for people, even though they wouldn't use that language.
So- Yeah ... we invite people over f- to feast at Easter, and we do a lessons and carol service in December, and it's very, like, garage band-y kind of thing. Like, it's not a production. Right. But people are going, "When can we come? Let us know when that is." And it might be- Wow ... cultural for them, but we think it's formative as well.
So to pour ourselves out for that, um- Mm-hmm ... is the counter, like the counter to the, the, what the empire wants to do- Yeah ... as well, so.
Andrew Camp: I love what you said, that the [00:41:00] table may not fix everything, but... And so part of me is like, the table may not be the answer to everything, but-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: the church has forgotten the table, that maybe if we start leading with the table as the answer to everything, like-
Mark Grapengater: I think so.
Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: you know. I wonder You know, I, I-
Mark Grapengater: I, I keep, I keep, I keep saying I haven't fully done the study, so I need to do the study. But nearly every... I think it's seven out of nine appearances of Christ after his resurrection, he is eating something.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Mark Grapengater: It's like overwhelmingly, he's cooking fish on the, on the beach- Yep
uh, for breakfast. He's breaking bread with the guys at Emmaus. Yep. Um, and he is revealing himself through a shared table. He's eating the fish when he walks through the wall, like Right. Uh, to prove that, yes, I have bodily resurrected. Kind of, it feels, you know, oxymoron. I walk through a wall, but I'm still...
I still need to eat this fish, so. Fish, [00:42:00] yeah. But- Right ... like, that's how he shows himself. And I, um, there's so much of what our lives and how, just how busy we are. Just, my wife and I had this conversation this morning of all the things that we have going on that are going to cut into time that we have, um, to spend around a table.
Mm-hmm. And I think the church falls into that. And even Sunday morning, like, this is, "Do this in remembrance of me every time you get together." Like, that was a main feature of the early church.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: And we're like, "Eh, once a month is pretty good." So
Andrew Camp: Or five minutes after the serm- after a- Yeah. ... you know, 50-minute sermon.
And again-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah ...
Andrew Camp: I, you know, like, the Road to Emmaus has been so f- formative for me- Mm-hmm ... of like, okay, how do... You know, like, one, Jesus explains all of the Old Testament and how- Yeah ... it points to him. And like
Mark Grapengater: Uh-huh.
Andrew Camp: We- it's a, it's a passing sentence in scripture for us. You know, like-
Mark Grapengater: Right
Andrew Camp: everybody wants that [00:43:00] sermon.
Like- Mm-hmm ... help me understand how Leviticus relates to you, Jesus. Like- Yeah. Like, or like how everything was leading to you, and we don't get it, but-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: you know, and like the disciples don't recognize Jesus until he breaks bread.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And but then they also say, "Hey, weren't our hearts burning as he-" Yeah
"explained things to us?" Mm-hmm. So, like, I, you know, again, it, the Road to Emmaus prohibits me from dismissing-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: teaching.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, you know, but it also says, "Okay, something else is going on here that we are missing-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: and we need to pay attention to."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Uh, I'm listening to A Moveable Feast, uh, by Ernest Hemingway.
Mm-hmm. And I'm getting into him lately, but one of the thing- it c- mainly, actually, I'm super attracted to his writing 'cause most of it's about food. Um, but, um, A Moveable Feast in particular, he talks about like, "We were hungry, uh, on the bridge, and so we went and we ate, but we [00:44:00] still had a feeling that was like hunger that was before."
And all the other things he does- Huh ... through that night is like, "But we were still hungry. We still had this hunger, this feeling within us, uh- Mm-hmm ... that wasn't satisfied." I wonder if that as closely relates to what they were, they were feeling, um, on the, on the, on the road, um- Right ... as Jesus was explaining that.
Andrew Camp: And I think that's like-
People are hungry, right? Mm-hmm. You know, and like they, they want something. I think most people are realizing inside, outside the church that what life is like isn't great. Yeah. Or, you know- Right ... um, I don't meet a lot of people who'd be like, "Hey, this is the best life ever," like.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, and so when you stop and you start having conversations, like, them recognizing that, like, "Oh, you're not crazy."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know? Yeah. Uh, goes a long way. Like on, you know, this trip to Spain and Portugal with [00:45:00] other, you know, wine reps from across the country, like there was only eight of us total, so it was a nice intimate group. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But like people found out I'm a pastor, like I lived in China. Mm-hmm. Like they have questions and they grew up religious and no longer religious.
Yep. And start asking me questions, and I have, we have lots of conversations that are, I don't know where those are gonna lead, but they were- Yeah ... I enjoyed them and, you know, I, how, how d- we shared in something meaningful-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: as we drank 18 glasses of wine a day. Yeah. So maybe, you know, like that always helps.
There was some
Mark Grapengater: social lubrication there, but-
Andrew Camp: Yeah. You know, as, as, as you know, Giesela says, the- Yeah ... the holy inebriation, like-
Mark Grapengater: Exactly. Exactly ...
Andrew Camp: it, I think, you know. But I, it Something does happen, and it's beautiful when it does. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't always happen, right? Like- Yeah ... and I think you and I are aware of that.
Like, some nights it's like we just need to get these kids fed and to bed- Yep ... because they need to sleep and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: I need to [00:46:00] unwind. But-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah
Andrew Camp: Well, we still need to create that space because I think, you know-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: resonance can't occur-
Mark Grapengater: Right ...
Andrew Camp: if we're not intentional. Like, I- Yeah ... can't manufacture a beautiful table set, a beautiful table conversation.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: But I can't have a beautiful table conversation if there's not a table.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You get to, we get to set the table and be ready, and I... Like, there's, there's that thing that happens for us as a host, like we need the party also. Like- Mm-hmm ... we need the gathering of people. Uh, uh, Robert Farrar Capon's, uh, thing, like 15 minutes before the people come over, uh, take your apron off, sit down, have a glass of wine.
Uh, I struggle- Mm ... with that, like- Yeah ... but it's prepare so that you can be a part of the gathering as well. Like- Mm ... people have accepted your invitation because you've extended that to them when they come over, and we need... Like, we're, we're hungry. We are people who need to eat, [00:47:00] um, metaphorically as well as actually.
Um- Yeah ... and we need that social interaction. Um, even the people that say they don't. I, Priya Parker was, said sh- uh, there was a introvert, not, like known introvert to her who was always, you know, leaving the parties early and doing the things introverts do. Um, and she started gathering people, and, uh, she was like, "Well, you, but I thought you, you don't like being around people.
You're an introvert." And she goes, "No, no, no, I, these are the things, these are the parties that I wanna go to." So I started- Yeah ... doing what I wanted for having people over 'cause I need that as well. And she- Mm-hmm ... recognized that, this, this introvert, um, not to put them all in a box or anything like that. Um, but, uh, recognized, like, I need social interaction and, but I want it on my terms, and I, that's absolutely like a way to do it as well.
Right. Um, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Camp: I veer more introverted than not. Mm-hmm. But [00:48:00] you know, like, uh, I s- you know, having two couples over is way more fun than having- Mm-hmm ... a house full of people.
Mark Grapengater: Yep, yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know? Like, I still love the conversation, like, you know, it's, you know? And so I think I love that point of, okay, what do I need-
Mark Grapengater: Yep
Andrew Camp: for my soul to feel recharged? Mm-hmm. And it doesn't look the same for everybody.
Mark Grapengater: Right.
Andrew Camp: Um, you know? And, and that's o- okay, right? Like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yep ...
Andrew Camp: you know? Yeah. Not everybody can go home and make gnocchi, you know?
Mark Grapengater: No, yeah. Nor should they. But you- But yeah ...
Andrew Camp: nor should they, yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: But you can order pizza.
Mark Grapengater: Exactly, exactly. You don't even have to make pizza, right? Like-
Andrew Camp: No ...
Mark Grapengater: order it. Like, people... I, that's what I try to tell people all the time, like it's not what you're putting on the table- is that you're, you're inviting people to it to share with you. Right. And sometimes Domino's is the best thing to serve-
um, because that's gonna get people fed, and it's gonna gather people. And then, you know, I, I mean, [00:49:00] I would always advocate for a bottle of wine, but like- Right ... that just begins to open up. There's something about, again, like it's, there's this substance that's been bottled from a place and time, and you're opening it up at a place and time, so there's like the second terroir and vintage of when you open it.
And the- Yeah ... experience of that and the sharing of it and pouring it out of a communal bottle, um, I think it binds people together. I mean, I, I love what Giesela has to say on, on all, all of that, and I believe it, so, um, I've experienced it, so.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: And
Andrew Camp: then there's the place to crack open a Michelob LIGHT with your neighbor- Yes
and just sit on, sit in the garage and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: drink.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: beer together because, you know, like sitting there will be great, and you-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: have, you know... It's again, meeting, being a guest.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: You know? Yeah. And saying, "Hey, I'm a guest." You know? Like, "Yes, I, I will meet you on where you're at."
Mark Grapengater: Exactly.
Andrew Camp: Uh, um- Exactly
and share, and [00:50:00] not... Do I like drinking Michelob LIGHT?
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: No, but-
Mark Grapengater: But I will. It's- But I will ... the best, the best beer is free beer, so it really doesn't matter. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Right. But again, yeah, like it's, it's that connection. It's that moment- Yeah ... we share together and say- Mm-hmm ... you know what? Like, yeah, like I'm grateful for you- Mm-hmm
uh, and, and your hospitality.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what they can offer you, and that's-
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm ...
Mark Grapengater: you saying, "I will be a, a grateful guest as well"- Yeah ... around another person's table, so.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and realizing too who I invite over sh- might depend on what I serve and what-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: bottle of wine I open.
Like-
Mark Grapengater: Yep. ...
Andrew Camp: if somebody's a novice in wine, I shouldn't open my best bottle.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: I can open a bottle, a nice bottle, and I want to- Mm-hmm ... but, you know, do I save some bottles for friends who love and appreciate wine? Yes, because- Yes ... the conversation will unfold differently.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: But I can still help people take a [00:51:00] step.
Mm-hmm. Of, hey, like this is a wine that, you know, and tell them a story and maybe say, "Okay, hey, what are you tasting?" Yeah. You know? Um, and educa- you know, a little education goes a long way.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Uh, can I tell a fun story that- Yeah ... about this? Like, so- And I have, I
Mark Grapengater: have one right after you, so go ahead, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, so, um, part of my job as a wine distributor is we do big events, right? Mm-hmm. And there's a big country club, gui- gated community here in Flagstaff that does probably the biggest event in Arizona every year. Mm-hmm. Like hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent on this event, and I bring out some nice bottles, and this year I was pou- pouring a, um, Burgundy premier cru, right?
You know- Yeah ... single vineyard Marssy, uh, it wasn't Marsannay. I forget where it was from, but it was a beautiful wine, drinking beautifully at this moment.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Towards the end of the night, you know, two young ladies come over, 23-ish, 24, um, and they're like, "Hey, pour me your favorite." And I'm like, "Okay, what...
Big, r- you know, light?" And they're like, [00:52:00] "Lighter body." And so I pour, pour them this grand cru or premier cru, and they're like, "Oh, this tastes like Meiomi," and I'm like-
Mark Grapengater: Ugh ... "
Andrew Camp: Oh, wait, wait, wait. No. Can... Let's back up." And they're like- ... "Actually, no. We were just, we were just being... trying to have conversation. We were just trying to have conversation."
And I'm like, "Okay, can I educate you?" Yeah. "Can I just take some time?" And they're like, "You know what? You're the first person who has treated us with respect." And not as just a 23-year-old person who's not gonna buy wine
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Ugh.
Andrew Camp: You know? That's awesome. Yeah. And so I was talking to them about Pinot and the difference- Uh-huh
and the uniqueness and what- Yeah ... Meiomi is or isn't- ... um, versus what, you know- Yep ... this single vineyard-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: Burgundy is. And they're like, "You know what? Like, we appreciate that. Like, this, this is-" Mm-hmm "... you, you're the first person who hasn't dismissed me-" Yeah "... to- tonight." Um, and so it was just like, okay, like did they buy a lot of wine?
No. No. But maybe I, I helped them a little bit. Well,
Mark Grapengater: they might. They might.
Andrew Camp: They might.
Mark Grapengater: In [00:53:00] the fu- yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: They're more educated on it, which, I- Right ... there is an education process with it, but-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Mark Grapengater: so there's, with everything, so.
Andrew Camp: Right.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: But, uh, like just that, that little moment has like stuck with me of like, okay, if I can- People appreciate-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm
Andrew Camp: a little kindness.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah And
Andrew Camp: just
Mark Grapengater: not- Well, you give them dignity in that, right? Yeah. So. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
Andrew Camp: So that's my story-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ... of- The, uh, um... mine's n- n- not quite as, as polished maybe, but, um, But my, uh, my buddy Kevin that, that let me stay with him as I was transitioning off campus, he was the wine guy in Chicago- Yeah
at our church. And every year, uh, Grace, I think they still do a wine tasting, and it was very much like... So there was al- it was always themed and, and all these things, but Kevin would host people in his, in his flat, uh, in his condo, uh, regularly, and he would set out, you know, a dozen bottles of wine for people to drink.
And you walk in, when I moved in, he goes, uh... All [00:54:00] right, his, his whole thing is just lined with wine all the way around it. And, uh, he goes, "Don't drink any of the good bottles." He goes, "Never mind, they're all good bottles. Don't drink any of the great stuff." And I was like, "Yeah. Well, I'm not opening any of your bottles when you're not here.
You don't have to worry about that." But he would have, you know, a small table with a dozen bottles on it for people to go over and, and drink it. Um, but then you wouldn't notice necessarily, and you'd show up and... Uh, there was one time I showed up a little after, you know, everything had gotten started, and, um, I go over to the, the normal table, and he goes, "No, no, no.
Come over here." And in the corner he has one bottle open, and it was something like Mercury Head from Oren Swift or some- you know, like a- Yeah ... a, a significantly very nice bottle. And he would go, "Here you go." You know, for those who know. And he would pour something. And he's like, "Those are good. That's good over there."
It's not- Yeah ... nothing's... I mean, I... I'll buy the Kirk- I think Kirkland Signature has some good stuff that they put out. Right. Also don't wanna just put out Kirkland [00:55:00] Signature things all the time. Right. But, uh, but for the value and the price and all that- Mm-hmm ... but, like, he's gonna pour something nicer for those who are going to appreciate, uh, the nuances that, that come across it as well.
Um, yeah. We, we reserve. It's, it's good to have special occasion things, um- Yeah ... for, for people, for special people that we invite over or for- Mm-hmm ... to lift the occasion up to something- Yeah ... than, than what it is. W- um, gosh, I was reading yesterday maybe, and it was like, um, wine, wine will transform a dinner into an event.
Hmm. Like, it will change the shape of what, um, what we're... how we're eating, what we're eating, um, have that conversation back and forth. Yep. Um, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. And then I've also read, why are you saving your special bottles? Like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, that's as well. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Just, just open it. Like, you
Mark Grapengater: know, like- Tuesday night, it's just-
Andrew Camp: T- yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Yep.
Andrew Camp: And, and there's, I think, truth in that too of like- Yeah ... oh, you [00:56:00] know, I can only open this on a special occasion. But if the special- Yep ... occasion never transpires- It
Mark Grapengater: makes it a special occasion.
Andrew Camp: Okay, yeah.
Mark Grapengater: So.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. And some, some days you just need to drink. something special because maybe life felt a little harder, and you just, you needed-
Mark Grapengater: Yep
Andrew Camp: to remind yourself of beauty. And I think, like you said-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: wine showcases something that few other beverages can. Um-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah ...
Andrew Camp: you know? And, and the evolution of flavors that happens, and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: what happens to a wine over time, you know?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um,
Mark Grapengater: it- God gives us delight. Like, we have a sense of delight- Yeah
to enjoy things. Mm-hmm. And I think wine is one of those things that he gives us the delight to be able to, um, uh, r- realize the gift of his grace more, uh- Yeah ... in our lives. Um- Mm-hmm ... and it can be something that, you know, gosh, today really sucked, so I need to have something that's a little bit more, that I can delight [00:57:00] in more.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, right.
Mark Grapengater: Than, than the Kirkland Signature stuff, which, you know, whatever. But, uh, um, you know, it's like, but no, this, uh, premier cru is going to give me the time and space, and to sit down... I love how Giesela talks about, like, when you go through tasting a wine, it is like you, you begin to notice, you begin to w- to wonder, uh- Mm-hmm
at what God has done, um, in, in this bottle- Yeah ... um, in this substance that, that he- Mm-hmm ... has ordained. So it's really wonderful. Yeah. No. Um, you, you were just in Portugal and Spain, and you were telling about a great meal that you had. We went over to Paris and London, but in Paris it was very particular, 'cause it's much more romantic, um, much more food-centric, uh, culture.
And, you know- Yeah ... people would be like, "Well, lunch is, you know, three hours, and you have to ask for the bill, and you have to..." You know, but they let you sit and linger around the table a lot [00:58:00] more. Right. Did you... I loved it. Like, that was like- Yeah ... oh my gosh, yeah. So lunch was our big meal of the day, and we'd go, you know, do the, the cultural thing in the morning.
And it was like 100 degrees there, so we were just sweating- Wow. Yeah ... as I'm, like, eating French onion soup, and, like, not the right food choice, but I didn't care. Yeah,
Andrew Camp: no.
Mark Grapengater: But how did, did you experience the, the, just the, the, the time and the, the space to linger around more, like-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Mark Grapengater: when you were w- in, in Portugal and Spain?
Andrew Camp: Absolutely. And especially, like, like I was telling you, w- I had a few days prior-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: um, to the trip, and then I spent one extra day in Bilbao. And so-
Mark Grapengater: Mm ...
Andrew Camp: you know, 'cause most of our time was scheduled. So, like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: um, but yeah, when I was having this meal by myself in Porto-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: um Oh, what's the ... I'm blanking on the name.
Alme- Almenha, I think Almeja was the name Okay I'll look it up. But, um, I walk in 'cause the restaurant I was gonna go to, they were on vacation.
Mark Grapengater: Oh,
Andrew Camp: okay. Um, you know, so I walk over [00:59:00] there- Yep ... like, you know, I walk a mile and a half- ... and they're like, "Hey, we're, we're gone." Yeah And like, they didn't have a website.
Mm-hmm. They only had a Facebook page. And you're like, "Okay, well..."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Oh, well. So I, I walked back to this place 'cause I'd seen it earlier in the day and it had caught my eye. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I walk in and I'm like, "Hey," you know, I walk in right when they open and I'm like, "Do you got a table for one?" I'm-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: D- they're like, "Do you have a reservation?" I'm like, "No." And they're like, "Yeah, come on in." Like, "Come on in." Okay. You know? And-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And then I figured, like, they're gonna rush me 'cause like-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: you know, they may need to turn the table, like, you know, I'm thinking in American terms, right? Yep. Yeah, very
Mark Grapengater: much, yeah.
Andrew Camp: Like, you know, and I'm, I'm sitting and I, my, my table's towards the front of the restaurant, and I walk other, watch other people walk in, and for the rest of the night they get turned a- like, I don't see anybody else- ... with, you know, get welcomed in, right? Like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: but at the same time, like they'd never rushed me.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: And so, like they just let me linger after the final dessert, and I [01:00:00] had to ask for the check, and I'm like, "Wait, this is so weird." Like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ... "
Andrew Camp: Don't you need the table?" Like I'm, I'm trying to work with, like I wanna be respectful. Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: Um, and then the last night, you know, we were in Bilbao, and you know, a few of us stayed, and so we had dinner at this restaurant, and like on the website, they're like, "Hey, you have like two hours."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know, like, "We'll give you- Mm-hmm ... a table for two hours," but three hours later we're still sitting there.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. You
Andrew Camp: know? Yeah. Having had two bottles of wine and a, you know, some, I think sherry post-dinner and-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: again, we had to ask for the check.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: It's so ... It was nice, but also like I- uncomfortable.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah. What was like- I, it- What, where was the tension for you?
Andrew Camp: I think because I didn't know the cultural cues.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Like, I, I don't know what, what's proper and what's not.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: You know? Like, I, I wanna be respectful, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, I, you know, if you need the table, like-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: I, I don't wanna take advantage.
Mark Grapengater: [01:01:00] Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Um, but at the same time, we were still eating and drinking. Like, we're not just lingering for linger's sake.
Mark Grapengater: Right.
Andrew Camp: Um, you know, 'cause I know they need to make profit.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: Like, you know? So, like, I think it was just this, like, weird having been in the industry and knowing, like, "Hey, we have 90 minutes to turn the table."
Like, you know- ... like, we gotta keep it mo- you know, like-
Mark Grapengater: Yep. Yep.
Andrew Camp: Um, y- and so, like, yeah, I think it was just that cultural counter-narrative of like, "Nope, you're, you're a guest. You're welcome here-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: until you're not, until you're ready to go."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: and so yeah, I, it was just this weird feeling that I didn't know how to make sense of fully.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Have you, did you try to bring any of that back with you?
Andrew Camp: Oh, why do you ask questions that make me like... Oh, wait, no, I forgot. I
Mark Grapengater: think, I like, I, I, we would go on vacation, and I would get back, and I would feel the rub and the tension of, you know, we had the space [01:02:00] and time to linger around the table, whether it was just us- Right
as a family eating in, in the Airbnb, um- Yeah ... or having no schedule, so it didn't matter what our timeline was. Like, oh, we need to be at the beach eventually, you know, wherever, whatever vacation was. Right. And, uh, and I've s- when I came back, that, that particular vacation when I came back, we'd been in, in Costa Rica, and I'd lived there, and it was a totally different experience g- taking my family down there.
Um, but I was like, "Okay, what, what do I need to do to be able to, like, bring- Hmm ... this not vacation spirit, but the space- Yeah ... um, like the things that I love about being on vacation into- Mm-hmm ... the everyday life? How can we make Denver like that and have- Right ... that space and, um, you know, either the gathering or the, the intentionality of time or, um, whatever that would be.
And that, it's not, it doesn't always prove. Stacy will tell you [01:03:00] coming back from Paris was very challenging for me 'cause Denver is not Paris. Um, Denver is great- No ... in its own right, but
Andrew Camp: Yeah, Flagstaff's not Spain and Porto- Yeah. ... and there's po- there's a sadness in, uh...
Mark Grapengater: Uh, uh, but, um, like, how do we, like, hold that space is, I guess that's the question, so.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Or how have you done that?
Andrew Camp: Not well, but
But how do you... Yeah, like I just, it's that how do you waste time
Mark Grapengater: w- Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: in a culture that says, "Hey, everything's gotta be planned out."
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: You know? Mm-hmm. And we're on a schedule, and I have things to do.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm. Um- Well, spend, how do we spend it differently, right? Like-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Mark Grapengater: um, what Annie Dillard's how you spend your, h- how you spend your days is how you spend your, your life.
I saw she ends one of the para- I think the same paragraph, like, "Spend your afternoon." Um, so maybe it's, maybe [01:04:00] how... Like, we, we get in this conversation with our family, like our values and how we spend our money looks differently than how other people spend it. And- Mm-hmm ... we will, you know, there's the argument around, "Well, you can't spend money on that," or, "That's too expensive."
But you, those are judgment calls based on what your values are. So-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Mark Grapengater: I've, we value good food and good wine, so we're gonna spend money on that. We're gonna spend, you know, um, and we s- value our time with our family and vacation, so we're gonna spend money on that. Mm-hmm. Um, but so how we spend our afternoon is maybe the culture would say that it's a waste, right?
Yeah. But maybe we're going like, "This is the most important thing that lines up with my values of how we could spend our, our Saturday night or our, our Thursday afternoon or whatever it may be-" Yeah ... to gather people or to, uh, provide space for ourselves as well.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Um, but it, it's what are our values and how we spend our time, and I think it's just as important as how we spend our [01:05:00] money.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Well, so my daughters, we fell into a habit maybe a couple years ago of watching The Great British Baking Show.
Mark Grapengater: Oh.
Andrew Camp: And so, well, you know, they, they ask now, like, they're like, "Okay," it comes around in the fall, they're like, "Daddy, when's Great British Baking Show- Mm-hmm ... coming out? When, when it..." Like, and so I think the new season started today.
Okay. And so they're like, "Can we watch it? Can we watch it- Yeah ... after school together?" And so, like, our Friday afternoon ritual from, you know- Mm-hmm ... as much as we're able to will be s- spending an hour watching this show bec- Yeah ... you know. And do they wanna do it because it's extra video and we try to limit screens?
Because-
Mark Grapengater: They, they're manipulating you, so...
Andrew Camp: Or yeah, like- Yeah ... or is it they like the time together- I think they like, yeah ... and they like watching the creativity- Mm-hmm ... and, you know, and it's a fun show and it's-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: you know, like, it's a nice show to watch. Um-
Mark Grapengater: Absolutely ...
Andrew Camp: so yeah. Like, it's that, you know, okay, so, like, am I [01:06:00] wasting a Friday afternoon-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah
Andrew Camp: with my girls? Maybe, but w- will they remember it and look forward to those days?
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Um, so yeah, it's that how we structure our time and what we make important-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: hopefully will pay off down the road.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um-
Mark Grapengater: The, but we have to, I mean, that, that's part of the, the faith and the hope that we have, right?
Is that- Yeah ... what we're doing and how we're doing it, um, I think Peterson leans into that a lot, of- Hmm ... it's not just what we do, it's how we do it. No. Yeah. Um, and spending time doing things that the, the rest of the culture, church and broad American culture would say, "Eh, not really important." Mm-hmm. But maybe, maybe it's gonna pay off in 10 years of we have this, "Ah, Dad, remember when we would sit around and watch the Great Ba-," you know.
Yeah. "Let's watch it again," 'cause everything's, uh, still available 10 years from now, but...
Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah.
Food Memory and Hospitality
---
Mark Grapengater: [01:07:00] Yeah.
Andrew Camp: But, but even, you know, in the book I'm reading by William Cavanaugh about-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: the Eucharist, and he's approaching it from a Catholic lens, um-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: you know, but he talks about Eucharist time, of like it's not linear, it's not circular, but it's a confluence- Hmm
of past, present, future that we're, something happens in the Eucharist, in the sacrament, that time becomes of utmost importance because we're connect, you know- Yeah ... we're connected in the past with the body of Christ- Yeah ... and we're proclaiming something future that is consummated and, but yet, not yet fully here.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: And yet we're present in the time too. And so, you know, as we, as I think about the Eucharist and, like- what time it is and how to be connected.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know, those rituals I think, you know, again, not everything's Eucharistic, not everything's sacramental. Yeah. But those moments we cultivate, whether with our kids, our spouse, our friends-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm
Andrew Camp: do they become sacramental [01:08:00] in nature where we are connected to something that is beyond time that, you know, we're, we can look back and remember and- Yet still look forward to more.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah
Andrew Camp: So yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Absolutely.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: I think that's how- Time is weird to me ... yeah. I think that's how the Psalm structure all the time is they're, you know, the, the Berakhah, the, the Psalms of thanksgiving in particular is like- Right
"Blessed are you, O God, who," you know, is creator of the universe. You did all of these things in the past- Right ... and I'm stuck right now in this spot, so do these things in the future. Because what you've done previously, like- Yeah ... that's the structure of, of what scripture has given us with our relationship with God, and to be able to pray those things to him- Mm-hmm
frees us up to be able to see what he's doing in and around us now, um, no matter what. N- whether it's watching Great British, British Baking with our kids, um, whether it's, um, gathering around the table, um, [01:09:00] those... They're real tangible things that our families, our communities can grab onto to do, um, with them.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: And spend that relational time with them.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Mark Grapengater: So, yeah.
Andrew Camp: And it will carry for- forward, 'cause again, something I w- I was reading a book about flavor and olfactory senses, and that, you know- Mm-hmm ... our olfactory senses are stored in a different part of our brain than, like, touch- Yeah. Uh-huh ... where it's a deep recess.
Like, it is in the long-term memory- Mm-hmm ... which is why when we smell certain things or taste certain things, like, we are, like, immediately- Yep ... transported to a place- Yeah ... that, that feels like there is... It's not just a taste. Like, your body-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: feels it. Um- Yep ... you know? And so what we do with food and with around the table, they may, it may...
We may not see something now, but maybe years down the road they will drink a glass of wine-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: that will [01:10:00] do something to their memory and be like- Yeah ... "Oh, I remember that time I shared with Mark." Like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: that was beautiful. Like, I wonder how Mark is. Like-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: you know? Mm-hmm. Or those wines I drank in Portugal and Spain.
Like, I was s- you know, telling, taking some samples of those wines out this week to my customers and accounts, and when I drank 'em, all of a sudden all the stories, all the places, all the- It was all back there, yeah ... m- they're back and, you know, it's... Y- yeah, it's a weird sensation that I think, again, goes back to praying the Psalms of like, "Hey- Yeah
we're connected, and what our bodies tells us in these shared experiences-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: um, connects us back to something more profound, um, than we- Yeah ... we shared originally maybe."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Yeah, absolu- Did you start speaking Portuguese while you were- Sharing the wines? No.
Andrew Camp: No, I don't know. I, I know Spanish, and- Okay
what's funny is I was the best Spanish speaker on the trip, which is- ... really bad. Yeah. Like, my wife's fluent, my mom's fluent in Spanish, and so, like, I told our... My, I [01:11:00] texted my wife, "I'm the best Spanish speaker. I'm the translator," and she just like, "Well, you guys are in trouble." Like...
Mark Grapengater: In France, I tried to do some Babbel and, like, learn some French.
Yeah. I, like, uh, I've, you know, uh, I, where's the bathroom kind of things, and you know- Right ... I know oui is yes, and the waiter would speak to me, and I, I started to pick it up. It's a Romance language. It's Latin-based, and I- Yeah ... could read some signs and placards and things and, and figure it out. But that, like, my default, uh, non-English language is Spanish.
Yeah. And so the guy, you know, the waiter would be speaking to me, "Would you like this? Can I bring..." "Yes." And I'd s- and I'd think oui, but my mouth would just go si. And- Yeah ... my wife would just look at me like, "What are you doing?" And, or merci. Uh, gracias. Uh...
Andrew Camp: Oh, wait. Nope, nope. Uh, uh, yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Ah. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah.
Sometimes I wouldn't even catch it. She's like, "You're speaking Spanish again." Yeah. Um, I, [01:12:00] so for both of us, working in restaurants and the f- hospitality industry has been so, I think, profound. It's very shaping. It's a very shaping work. Yeah. Um, do you have requirements on your kids or encouragements to the same end for them?
Andrew Camp: I actually tell people, "If you can do anything else, don't cook."
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Like, you know, and I, I joke about it, but I'm like, it is a demanding-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: profession that you're, you're cooking, you're working when everybody else is playing.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: When everybody else is celebrating, you're y- you're cultivating those, that time for people.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, but no, like, I, I... no, I want them to be them. Um- Yeah. I want them to enjoy food. I, you know, and every now and then our oldest, Hazel, like we were... They fell in love with Korean fried chicken when we traveled to- Yeah ... Washington, DC. Mm-hmm. Which I'm like, "Okay, I'm, I'm getting there." Yeah. Like-
Mark Grapengater: [01:13:00] Yep.
Andrew Camp: Um, and so there's a little Korean restaurant here in Flagstaff, and we went last weekend with my parents and, you know, they loved it.
And Hazel's feeling adventurous, so she's trying different things and some of the like, um, you know, like the little side plates and, you know, she looks at me, how, you know, as we're finishing, she says, "Daddy, when I'm 12, can we go to Shift?" You know? And I'm like, "Yes." Yeah. You know, and Shift is our favorite restaurant in Flagstaff.
Okay. It's, you know, small plates, shared, you know, unique, you know, like flavors. Mm-hmm. Um, great cooking. You know, uh, we love it, right? It's where we go for our anniversary every year.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: You know, if we're in town. Yeah. Like, um, y- and so, and I was like, "Yes, but here's the thing. Like, we will look over the menu-
Mark Grapengater: Yep
Andrew Camp: and we'll pick some things, but you will have to try-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: everything." Mm-hmm. You know? Like you just have to... You, you... You know, I won't- I, I won't go too crazy, but, like, you will have to ... You'll eat what is put, put in front of you Yep And, you know, she could ... I could tell, like, okay, like, you [01:14:00] know. She hasn't said anything since, but- Yeah
I, I think 12 is a great ... You know, I, I want that- Mm-hmm ... for my girls, where, like- Yeah ... we can go to these restaurants and share this experience-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: with, as a family, where it's not just me cooking-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: but where we can just say, "Hey, we're gonna let the chef decide-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah,
Andrew Camp: yeah ... what we eat tonight." Yeah. "And we're gonna enjoy and see, and maybe it won't all be g- Mm-hmm
our favorite, but, you know, what's the beauty that we can experience together?"
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah. W- we, we somewhat have a requirement on our kids, um, we- while they're, like, kids, um- Yeah ... to work in a front of house. Um, s- my wife worked in front of the house, fine dining. Her mom ran one of the restaurants at the Kohler, um, club in, in Wisconsin at their resort there.
And- Yeah ... her mom would have interns come in, and, uh, she'd be like, "Do you like family vacations? Do you like holidays? Do you want to spend Christmas with your family? Don't go into the [01:15:00] hospitality industry." Like, "Don't do it." Right. 'Cause you, you are, as you said, cr- cultivating and creating these experiences for one another.
Um, but we want them, we want our kids exposed to what goes into, like, the skills- Hmm ... that are learned and developed- Yeah ... in that for them. Um, that doesn't mean ... I, I, I, I don't, I don't think I would be disappointed. I would just know, like, it's, it's a hard ... You know, I think if you're gonna go into ministry, it's a hard path.
Um, all- Mm-hmm ... all vocations have their challenges to them, but- Yeah ... um, along the eating lines, we went to New Orleans, um, over Labor Day with my folks, and we went to ... They ... I was like, "I'm going to eat here." And- Yeah ... so they had turtle soup on the menu, like, almost everywhere. Mm-hmm. They had jambalaya. Yeah.
They had all this stuff. So I'm like, "I'm ordering all the weird things." If I, you know- Yeah ... very New Orleans stuff. And I had my daughter, who will turn 10 in a few days, and had [01:16:00] her try everything. Excuse me. And she was like, "Turtle soup, it's not bad." I was like, "It's very much like Brunswick stew, but with, like, little bits of turtle," which don't taste like anything.
Yeah. Um, it was very tasty. And then, but she was like, "Jambalaya, Dad. Would you, would you make that for me? Can you make that?" Um, and what are the other, the other, like, long, uh, cooking, um-
Andrew Camp: Gumbo?
Mark Grapengater: Gumbo. She loved gumbo as well. And she was like, "Can you make that?" I'm like, "I can make that for you, yeah." "Okay." And we, you know.
There's, there's, there's some good Cajun restaurants here in, in Denver, but- Yeah ... um, it was, uh... So we, I'm going to be, um, I hate even admitting this, I'm gonna be gone for part of her birthday, um- Hmm ... uh, next week. Uh, but I was like, "All right, how do I make it special? Where can we go out?" And the great restaurant down the street from us, Italian, multiple courses, they...
Like, it's really, it's very, very good. And [01:17:00] Monday nights is their wine night, though, and they have a featured, a producer or distributor or somebody doing something. Ah. And they do a, like a f- three or four course with that. And I was like, "I would really like to take her to that, but I also need to know what the menu is to..."
Yeah. I think she might try things, but the, the, the, um, the trade-off on the, uh, uh, financial front is- Yes ... always a little bit of a question, right?
Andrew Camp: It's, for sure. For sure.
Mark Grapengater: So. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: So when you and your wife go out for a celebration, do you- Mm-hmm ... what, what do you guys look for in a restaurant?
Mark Grapengater: It's so hard. Um, the last places that we have been That have had Michelin attached to them in Denver have been disappointments.
Andrew Camp: Hmm.
Mark Grapengater: I mean, it's just like, you know, like I know what a one-star, two-star should be. Yeah. [01:18:00] And I'm like, ugh, I just... I want really, I want a restaurant to be what they say they are ultimately. Yeah. So if you're a fast food Chinese restaurant, like that's what I want. Um- Yeah ... if you are gonna say, "We are putting out, you know, we're sourcing the best ingredients, and we're s- you know, technique and all of that."
Um, so a lot of it's- we've s- I've, I'm simplifying my tastes a bit. I like to go out and say, "I've chosen the restaurant, bring the food." Um- Right ... it's sometimes that's really wonderful, and sometimes- Mm-hmm ... it's, "Uh, you, you tried." Um
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Uh, that didn't really work. Um- No ... so I think, I mean, we're starting to, to go into like these are our favorite places.
Yeah. Um, and having kids at home, so it's not just paying for the meal out, it's paying for the babysitter. Um- Yep ... and I wish I made as much as babysitters make. Um, but um, you know, to be- Gone are the
Andrew Camp: days when I [01:19:00] got to charge $5 an hour for-
Mark Grapengater: I know ... you know,
Andrew Camp: f-
Mark Grapengater: I thought it was amazing, but- Yeah ... now they're like 30 bucks an hour, and I'm like-
Andrew Camp: Jeez
Mark Grapengater: I can't bill at that rate. Um- Yeah. So, um, th- yeah, so we're, we're... But we go, like we wanna go out and eat a really good food. We want smart wine pairings with it. Um, one of the best meals that we... They, they w- are a new restaurant, and they were just recognized by like New York Times or something like that- Right
here in Denver. Um, but it was just really one of those like, "Oh, this is... This was a great..." It was kinda Spanish Basque kinda- Hmm ... uh, in that kinda realm of things. But, uh, it was very simple food. It was well-prepared. Um, the wine was excellent. Yeah. Um, and, uh, real- just one of those experiences where we left and we were like, "I think we ate from, we ate from the sea, the air, the land."[01:20:00]
And it just was, they executed wonderfully, and it was just like, you know- Just really, really well done. Yeah. So yeah. Um-
Wine Journeys and Wrap Up
---
Andrew Camp: Did they... I have to ask since, you
Mark Grapengater: know- Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: we were just in Basque- Yeah ... Country and Spa- You know, like- Yeah ... our favorite little snack at all the bars was the gilda. So it's like a little tapa.
Mark Grapengater: The... Oh, God. I c- I fricking... So we did... I'm sorry. Now I'm kicking myself- No ... 'cause I know Spanish. Uh, I called it... So we ser- we did, our last meal that we did for the auction was- Yeah ... Spanish. Okay. That's right. And I served the gilda, but I kept- Yeah ... calling it a gilda because- Oh ... I'm an idiot American who hasn't, you know, it doesn't matter- Yeah
if you major in Spanish, you're still gonna screw up another language. Um, but we, it's wonderful. It's like- Yeah ... an olive, an anchovy- Two ... and this little pepper.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Perfect. It's so dumb. It's so good.
Andrew Camp: It's so... I know, and I'm like, "Ha." Yeah, like I just wanna make [01:21:00] like a big vat of them so I could just- Yes
pull one out, you know, and like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, 'cause it's briny, it's salty, it's savory, it's h- You know, I would always get the hot pepper ones.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: You know, and like they, like, yes, all
Mark Grapengater: the time. You pound them. We did that. So we served that with, um, a salt cod, uh, um, it's not a croqueta, but it's, um, a bunuelo 'cause it has egg whites in it, so it's a little lighter.
Okay. Yeah. And then we had a, um, an a, a proper aioli or, um, a-yoli, however they actually pronounce it in Spanish. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, and then, uh, like a chorizo, a fresh chorizo meatball with manchego and date. Mm. And that was like, for me, it was probably the easiest overall dish to prepare and set out for people, but just one- Yeah
of the most satisfying. Served with, served with, um, a cider. Did you have cider when you were there?
Andrew Camp: No.
Mark Grapengater: Oh, okay. No. Well, you were drinking wine, so, but, um.
Andrew Camp: We were drinking wine. Yeah, or we would, we would have- We drank a, [01:22:00] you know, that, th- a lot of Aperol
Mark Grapengater: spritzes. Oh, yeah. I, no, I'm, I will, I'm here for Aperol Spritzes, so yeah.
Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. But one of the, you know, the importer, we're, we have our big import show coming up as a company- Mm-hmm ... on Monday, and the, you know, the importer I was with is coming to it, and she's like- Mm-hmm ... "Andrew, do we just make a bunch of Hildas to, like, give with people?" 'Cause she's gonna be- Oh, gosh.
Yeah ... pouring a Basque- Yeah ... you know, wine. And I'm like- Yeah ... "Y- yes, but do we share?" Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Are you doing a Txakoli with it? 'Cause that's it. That was one of
Mark Grapengater: the other sepa-
Andrew Camp: Txakoli. Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Uh, we, yeah, and we, 'cause we went to a choc- uh, winery in Txakoli, and it- Oh ... but it was a different... Like, there's different styles we learned- Mm-hmm ... I learned. Yeah. There's, there's three different regions, and-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: um, we were in Vizcaya region-
Mark Grapengater: Okay ...
Andrew Camp: which is, uh, they do a non-effervescent, longer time on lees- Okay
so rounder shape. Yeah. The guy, the winemaker, [01:23:00] beautiful place, rolling hill. Like, it- Mm-hmm ...
Mark Grapengater: you know,
Andrew Camp: just gorgeous winery. Um, but he was like, "Hey- Or when we walk into the winery, there are 17 glasses set out for each of us. Oh my gosh. And this is the last winery of the day, of the, the trip, right? Yeah. And we're all like, "Okay," we've already been in Rioja.
Like, we've already drunk, like-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: wine, you know? And we're like, "Okay," like ma- like, "Um, let's, let's go." Like, you know? This is the job. Yep. But he's like, "I, I'm here to show you that these wines can be aged."
Mark Grapengater: Oh, yeah. "
Andrew Camp: And so, like, we'll drink a few that you, you know, you can represent, but then we're gonna have an experience."
And they start pulling out- Mm-hmm ... 2009, 2008 vintages- Wow ... that are, like, oxidized. Yeah. One tastes like pecans and like... But then as the temperature warms up on the wines, like the-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: acidity comes back. Yeah. And so it was just a mind-bending... Like, I'm like, "What am I drinking? What's going on?" Like, I don't know what [01:24:00] this is.
I... Yeah, it was one of those mind- ... melt. Like, you're just like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: I don't... Yeah, like, uh, what is this?
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. The one we served, and we... There are not a lot available, uh, in Denver. Uh, but it was slightly effervescent. Yep. It was super fresh, high acidity. Yeah, yeah. And it was... I, we did, we taste wines before that, that we choose to put out with and try to- Yeah
think through what we're serving and stuff as well. And it just... Like, uh, none of the wines were bad. Like, we've, we've pulled some from like California or w- you know, uh- Yeah ... somewhere else. But you're like, "Eh, this just doesn't fit for, you know, what we're doing." And, or it's like, "This, I don't like this.
This tastes like ketchup." Um- ... and, uh, but all of the wines from Spain that we had for the tasting, we're like, "This is, this is not an easy task. Like, this is..." And they're wildly affordable for what- Yeah ... what you're getting as well, so. Yep. I was... Uh, I'm like, "I need [01:25:00] to drink a lot more Spanish, uh, wine in particular," so.
Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yep. No, I'm, I... Spain is where I started my journey and love of wine 'cause my grandpa loved Tempranillo- Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah ... and he was always like, "It's... I can, I can afford it." Like- Yeah. ... I can drink a really good Tempranillo at half the price that I would get from California or France. Like-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: you know, sim- similar quality, but, you know, like-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm
Andrew Camp: but yeah. So, like, Spanish wines always- Over deliver for their price
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: So-
Mark Grapengater: I have like, there, I think there's a movie where, like, there's a old man that comes out and pours a wine for a kid, and he's, like, drinking it along with him, and they water it down and, you know, the whole thing Yeah But, like, that's the image of what I have of you and your, your grandpa, like, drinking wine together, just like, "I found this Tempranillo," like, deep voice and-
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Very nostalgic and romantic and- Yeah ... sounds wonderful.
Andrew Camp: It, it, yeah. It was, it was one of those times where he shared about his [01:26:00] childhood and his life Mm. And as you're talking, you know, as I'm going through a spiritual formation program and talking about family of origin stuff-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ... like,
Andrew Camp: it's like, oh, okay, my grandpa did the best he could with my dad, and my dad did the best he could with me Mm-hmm.
Yeah And so hopefully each generation we're doing better.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Um, and then I got to see how much he loved my grandma-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: and, you know, wishes he could have done better by her. Mm-hmm. You know? And, like, that broke- like, that sorrow-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: at the end of life. You know, she had passed already. You know? But yeah, it just, it was a, it was, there was, were sacred moments and He was the first person that got me drunk enough to throw up.
So there's a... You know, and- Yeah ... I, I, I was hungover for one day of- Yeah ... seminary classes. I showed up to discipleship with Mike Wilkins slightly hungover and inebriated still.
Mark Grapengater: Uh-huh. But- And you know what? You survived, so-
Andrew Camp: I survived. Yeah, you
know,
Mark Grapengater: and- There's a joyful, uh, hangover for that. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. I wasn't [01:27:00] supposed to be drinking at Talbot, but hey.
Mark Grapengater: Okay. Well, you know, yeah. So.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. It's-
Mark Grapengater: We, uh, we had- we shared our, our seminary had an undergrad, and it was like you can't have alcohol, and- Right ... but all the undergraduate students were like, "The seminarians are drinking." And they're like, "Some of them have families, and they're 50." So-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Mark Grapengater: we're not gonna
Andrew Camp: tell them- Exactly
what
Mark Grapengater: to do or not do.
Andrew Camp: Yeah,
Mark Grapengater: yep. So.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: But yeah.
Andrew Camp: Yep.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Our- I had to do 48 hours solitude retreats as part of my program, and so I did one on feasting. Um- Mm-hmm ... and, you know, then invited some friends to share a meal, you know? And- Mm-hmm ... my professor asked, like, "Hey, what wines are you gonna serve?"
And I'm like, "Can I tell you? Or like, do, do I need to be- ... discreet?" You know, and she's like, "Eh, don't-" Is this a trick question? "... like, if you didn't serve wine... Yeah, like if you didn't serve wine, I'd be mad at you." So, like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, yeah. ... "
Andrew Camp: Please... Yeah, yeah, sh- share, share." Yeah. And so I was like, "Okay. All right. Well-" Yeah
"You, you feel like this rule is stupid too."
Mark Grapengater: Were you drawn to [01:28:00] food through wine more, or were you drawn to wine through food more?
Andrew Camp: Oh.
Mark Grapengater: Did I ask that right, I think? I
Andrew Camp: was drawn to... No, yeah, yeah. Okay. I was actually... My journey started with food, so it's always been- Okay ... about food for me. Yeah. And then wine was the accompaniment.
Yeah. Um, you know, and obviously now working in the wine world-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: I, the, the level of appreciation and knowledge is exponential. Yeah, yeah. But it was always... I still think of wine in terms of food.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Like I think of- Yeah ... okay, what would I eat with this or what would I do with this- Totally ... or like-
Mark Grapengater: Right
Andrew Camp: hey, as we s- you know, move towards holiday season and- Mm-hmm ... start thinking of, you know, Thanksgiving wines, Christmas wines.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: You know, like, okay, you know. I, I, I still think in that term.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: What
Mark Grapengater: about you? Uh, w- um, probably very similar. I, I, I was always interested in wine because of, I think there was, there was just a mystique about it, but I- Started drink, [01:29:00] uh, drinking wine when I was cooking.
Mm-hmm. And that became the, the what a- what am I... Like, w- somebody who had worked in, in the industry in, in seminary was doing, I think he had been a wine rep or something similar like that. But he put together a wine and cheese event- Yeah ... for the seminarians and hosted that. And he was like, "Everybody just go buy a bottle of wine and a cheese."
And people showed up with just the most random things ever. And I'm like, "Oh, no, I'm, I'm putting effort into this." Like, "I'm gonna go-" Yeah ... "find..." And it was still, it was, uh, um, oh, I think it was a, it was a French Pinot, so it was a Burgundy, but it was just, like, nothing... You know, it was like Louis Jadot Burgundy.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: And, uh, um, and also a rotti, which is just that pairing, like goat cheese, semi-soft or semi-firm, um, French, um- Mm-hmm ... just really... Uh, or it's sheep's [01:30:00] milk, actually. It's sheep's. Um, just, they just, the nuttiness, it's still just one of my favorite pairings- Huh ... of food and wine out there. Um, and it was like, okay, this is...
They interact with one another, and they draw you back and forth, and what you wanna- Mm-hmm ... like, they, they kinda help tell the story of each other. So.
Andrew Camp: Yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Yeah. I,
Andrew Camp: I love when food operates that way of where like- Mm-hmm ... the food and the wine are... Or maybe it's a spirit, you know, like the interplay- Yeah.
Yeah ... and the conversation that ensues of like, oh, you know, I take a bite, and then I take a sip, and- Yeah ... or I take a sip and take a bite, and
the flavors- Mm-hmm ... and what happens.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: You know? It's, it's Ratatouille.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know, and like the, you know, like the-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: the fire, you know, the cheese and the strawberry- Yeah ... and what- Yeah ... his mind does-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ... with
Andrew Camp: that.
Mark Grapengater: That's so wonderful. Um, how, like, education for the e- education for you in, in the wine world, has that helped inform you, or what have you done, or, um, [01:31:00] you know- Yeah
h- and how has that influenced and pushed, I don't know. Yeah.
Andrew Camp: No, yeah. Um, one, you know, it's reading about wines. You know- Mm-hmm ... if I'm gonna show a wine, I wanna be, have- Yeah ... have the information. Um, I, I never tell my accounts flavor profiles. I'll tell them like, you know, like the technical details of like, "Hey- Uh-huh
you know, picked this time," or, you know, if there's some vintage reports- Mm-hmm ... of like, "Hey, this is what happened this vintage." Um, but then what's been the best is actually doing, being part of blind tasting groups.
Mark Grapengater: Oh, yeah?
Andrew Camp: Uh, and so there's a group that meets Wednesday. Two of, three of them are studying for their advanced sommelier degree- Oh, yeah
with The Court. Um- Yep ... so, you know, like, they, they have to do, you know, one, they have to pass a crazy theory test, and then they have- Yeah. You know, if they pass the theory test, they get to do the tasting, but then they have to do six wines in 25 minutes. Gosh. Um, you know, and so we, we do a blind tasting group, and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm
Andrew Camp: [01:32:00] um, that's been super helpful of, like, one, listening to them-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: um, you know, and hearing them describe it, and-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: then me tasting and smelling and trying to put words to what I'm actually tasting. Yeah. Um, versus just, "Oh, it tastes good." Yeah. Or like, you know? Or even like, okay, it smells like apple. Is it green apple, yellow apple?
Is it tart? Is it fresh? Yeah. Is it over- Mm-hmm ... is it baked? Um, you know, and, and so I think that's just been helpful 'cause it's helped me-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: train myself-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Camp: um, better, you know, and to pay attention more. Yeah. Um, you know, and I, a- and I love what Gisela says, that yes, we need those experts, but then also what, you know, we- you don't need to be an expert to do it either.
Mark Grapengater: Right.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um- Yeah,
Mark Grapengater: absolutely ...
Andrew Camp: but it's just been helpful for me of like- developing a vocabulary 'cause I think- Yeah ... are there people with innate tasting abilities? Probably.
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm.
Andrew Camp: Yeah. But I think a lot of us can, [01:33:00] if we pay attention and actually try and are around people who do it as well, like-
Mark Grapengater: Yep ...
Andrew Camp: I think we can learn a lot of what-
Mark Grapengater: Oh, yeah
Andrew Camp: how to taste better and to name-
Mark Grapengater: Mm-hmm, yeah ...
Andrew Camp: the flavors versus just, like, okay, a tomato tastes like a tomato. I'm like, "Well, no." Right.
Mark Grapengater: No.
Andrew Camp: Like, is it tart, ripe? You know, is it- Yep ... depending on the color, like, are we talking, you know, uh, uh, more savory or more acid, fresh? Mm-hmm. Anyway, so.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Yeah. Did you, have you done wine education yourself, like formal, like WSET or anything?
Andrew Camp: I have not. Okay. You know, friends tell me I should do, you know- Yeah ... probably something, but I'm like, it's hundreds of dollars, and- Yeah ... I don't know what it gets me. Um-
Mark Grapengater: Well, I mean, I would, yeah, I would... I did level two WSET and-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Mark Grapengater: it was, it was really wonderful. It was very education, but if- Yeah ... you having worked into it, I think you would, you'd probably ace the test right away and kind of a thing.
The great part is, like, it's and I [01:34:00] mean this in the nicest way, it's food industry standards of, like, a D is passing or something like that. Right. It's like-
Andrew Camp: Yeah ...
Mark Grapengater: and I was like, "Okay, I'm not too worried about not passing," but, um- Right ... it was very educational. And to, to the tasting thing that you're, uh, notice that you're saying, what, what they said was, what our instructor said was, it is the, the s- the m- the muscle, I guess, or the, the, the neuropathway that's the slowest is from your mouth or your, your olfactory to your brain and back to your mouth.
And so- Hmm ... like, you, you have to train yourself to go, "This tastes like strawberries and cocoa and leather," and well, you have to- Right ... name the things to develop those neuropathways. You can't just like- Huh ... and you have to speak it aloud. And I'm always like, if I'm doing a wine tasting, I'm going, "This is gonna sound really pretentious, but this is what I'm getting-" Right
and this is..." Yeah. Um, and but it's, I'm just trying to train my own brain- [01:35:00] Mm-hmm ... in doing that. Um, I would love to spend time with people who have much more training than I do. Um- Yeah ... and but
Andrew Camp: Come, come to Flagstaff and we'll, we'll do the
Mark Grapengater: Wednesday- I would love to ... wine tasting tour Next time our president- You know
series is down there, so
Andrew Camp: yeah. You, you, yeah. Our, you and I, we, yeah, we need to get our wives together. We need to hang out- Yes ... and drink. It would be great. I think there could be a lot of way too much fun and probably- Abs- Yeah ...
Mark Grapengater: I'd, well, I, I don't think you can have too much fun, so
Andrew Camp: No, no.
Mark Grapengater: But we have a guest bedroom, so
Andrew Camp: Yeah, we have a guest bedroom too, so, you know, hey, you know.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: We'll, we'll kick, you know- Yeah ... kick the kids out, you know? Yep. Like, and yeah. Yeah. I want our kids to experience stuff, but then there's times- Yeah ... where we just need adult conversation- Yep ... and-
Mark Grapengater: Uh-huh ...
Andrew Camp: you know, not worry about kids and be like, "What? What do you mean? Huh? Huh?" Exactly. "Wait, what'd you...
Yeah. What?
Mark Grapengater: What?" Exactly. That's, that's what they started doing on the, on our, our trip actually. It was like a new thing. It was like we'd talk about where we're gonna go and what we're gonna do, what we're [01:36:00] gonna eat, and then- Yeah ... they would suddenly tune in and be like, "What are we doing? What?" I'm like, "We've just been talking for five minutes.
I'm not gonna repeat the whole thing." Yeah.
Andrew Camp: Not every piece of information belongs- Yeah ... to you. Like-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. You're not making any decisions, so just-
Andrew Camp: No, no ...
Mark Grapengater: I don't want your opinion right now.
Andrew Camp: Yes. Oh, well, Mark, this has been a delight. We should probably- It has been ... begin to think about- Yeah ... wrapping up just because-
you know, I, I don't know what people's attention, you know, attention span is, but, you know, hey.
Mark Grapengater: I'm just getting started. I mean, let's
Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah, no, no ... we
Andrew Camp: haven't even started drinking yet, you know, but.
Mark Grapengater: I know. No. Supposedly- We, we- ... no. Uh, yeah.
Andrew Camp: S- um, if people want to learn more about what you're up to in this Table project- Yeah
I'd be curious, you know, where could they find you or just read about you.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Um- So our, um, we have two arms of our ministry. I didn't really quite [01:37:00] go into this, but, um, one is what we do locally is we serve and love our neighborhood in Denver. Um, most of that information is found at thetabledenver.org.
Um, and then the other side of that is that we go out and train churches and ministry leaders and provide retreats and, and wine tastings and food and feasting and all of that, um, to churches and ministry leaders, um, to, to, um, begin the thought process of what that looks like for their ministry or their own lives.
That information is at the-table-project.org. Um, there's a lot of overlap between both websites, but, um, and then we have thetableproject.substack, uh, where, uh, Feast Days lives, um, and I do occasional writing there as well. I, I need to do more of that, but those are the main areas, uh, where I can be, I can be found in that, so.
Perfect. And you, and 'cause we're posting, we're cross-posting, so.
Andrew Camp: Posting, yeah.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: So, uh, [01:38:00] yeah, The Biggest Table podcast, um, it's available wherever you find your podcasts. Mm-hmm. Um, and then y- uh, also have a Substack, um, with- called The Biggest Table. Mm-hmm. Um, like you, where I write occasionally and need to write more.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: Um, you know. I, I always long for, like, a Monday writing block- Yes. Oh, my gosh. Right ... you know, that discipline, which is what every writer says you need. Yes. Um, you know, travel, school- Mm-hmm ... everything got in the way, but.
Mark Grapengater: Yep.
Andrew Camp: So yeah, The Biggest Table, um, is where I'm at. You can also find me on- Wonderful
socials, on Insta-
Mark Grapengater: Yeah ...
Andrew Camp: Instagram and Facebook, where you'll see probably more pictures of wine and other stuff.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah.
Andrew Camp: You know, the, the bad wine I have to drink-
Mark Grapengater: I- ... which
Andrew Camp: by bad, I mean really good wine.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. It's part of the job.
Andrew Camp: It's part of the job. Yep. It is. I drink above my pay grade.
Mark Grapengater: Always, as we all should in some ways, so.
Andrew Camp: Yes.
Mark Grapengater: Yeah. Awesome. W- This has been wonderful, Andrew. Thank you so much.
Andrew Camp: Oh, likewise. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. So, awesome. Well, thanks for listening, [01:39:00] um, to The Biggest Table and Feast Days collaboration, and hopefully there's more of these in the future.
Mark Grapengater: Yes,
Andrew Camp: absolutely. Until next time, bye.