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Welcome to the Business, Enterprise and Management (BEAM) Bizcast from the School of Business at the University of Central Lancashire! Join us as we dive into the cutting-edge world of business research and policy. Our show brings you the latest insights, trends, and innovations that matter to businesses and anyone passionate about the business landscape. Tune in to stay informed, inspired, and empowered!
For more information about the BEOI, you can visit our website https://www.uclan.ac.uk/research/institutes/beoi
Okay. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the July installment of the BEAM podcast series with Adrian Wright and Sean Gammon. Today's podcast is delivered in conjunction with iROWE, the Institute For Research Into Organizations Work and Employment based at the University of Central Lancashire, of which Adrian is the director. And today, we'll be reflecting on the impacts and potential implications on some of the changes in employment relations in the UK by the new Labour government. Leading up to the recent election, the conservative party seemed to focus all their efforts on warning that the incoming labor party would just be increasing taxes.
Sean Gammon:While this narrative proved largely ineffective for the conservatives, it perhaps detracted from some of the more detailed and extensive changes that the labor party had planned for, specifically connected to, for example, employee rights. Now the king's speech, which is tomorrow, I think, yeah, is likely to touch upon some of these commitments. So it'd be interesting to see if there's going to be anything new or surprising. But one thing's for sure and that is that there's a wide range of quite significant changes in the offing. To help navigate us through some of these key commitments, we're joined by professor Richard Saunders.
Sean Gammon:He is a co author of Managing Employment Relations which is the core CIPD textbook for employee relations and he's widely published in leading international journals. His current work focuses on developing managerial capability, and he has spearheaded the development of innovative online training interventions as part of the skilled managers program, which is led by the University of West Westminster and funded by the Economic and Social Research Council. So long introduction, but, welcome, Richard, and many thanks for taking, taking some time out to chat with us today.
Richard Saundry:To be here.
Sean Gammon:Okay. So as as I mentioned, there's a there's a lot of employment based changes planned by this, new new government. And I wonder if you could pick what you think to be the 3 commitments that would make the most significant impact or the ones that we should take more notice of?
Richard Saundry:Yeah. I mean, it's there's a very wide range of changes in labor sort of what they call the new deal for working people. And I think in your introduction, you sort of hinted at this is that I think in some respects, although it's a major part of their manifesto commitments, it's a may going to be a major part of their program. I think in some ways, it's it's gone to the radar a little bit because despite some, some thoughts that it might that they've watered down some of their photos, which they have done and they may well water them down going forward. Overall, if you take the program as a whole, I would suggest it's probably marks about marks the sort of most radical changes we've had in the law and practice around employment relations probably since, you know, the right to unfair dismissal was introduced in the early 19 seventies.
Richard Saundry:I mean, it's really quite big stuff. So so isolating sort of three aspects, I think, is actually quite difficult. It would depend on everyone's perspective. Some people point to flexible working, things like, obviously, one of the things that the lower party doing are are or have said they would do is try to resolve these problems over employment status, which you've had around, you know, real real arguments and some really difficult issues around things like gig working. From from my perspective, I think 3 three aspects of this, which are which are really crucial, are the the suggestion that they might be moving towards introducing employment rights from day 1 for unfair dismissal.
Richard Saundry:And I'll explain as we go through why I think that's so important. I think that could be very, very significant and have a lot have really quite wide ramifications about people's experiences at work. I think secondly, they have suggested that they're gonna try and ban, what's called fire and rehire. So we've seen that across a number of organizations particularly during the wake of the pandemic. That's where an employer, essentially, announces to its workforce that it wants to change their terms and conditions and normally once we introduce inferior terms and conditions, the workers, or trade and trade unions sort of reject those and the employer then deals without a response to that by essentially terminating people's employment contracts and offering them new contracts on inferior terms and conditions.
Richard Saundry:And that's become a strategy which has been used over the last decade fairly regularly by organizations quite often as a tactic to sort of drive down terms and conditions. And that's an interesting one. I think it's gonna be very difficult, but again, I think it's very significant. And the third thing, I think is the more broad their broader measures around collective employment relations and particularly things like collective bark, you know, promoting the idea of collective bargaining. And arguably, I think that's the most important area, you know, I really feel like there is a real opportunity for the for the Labour government to reset relations with trade unions, And I think there are real consequences if they don't do that successfully and the number of ways in which they could do that, but I think that if they if they're not able to develop a real real sense of partnership working with trade unions, which I don't think we've had in the UK for a long, long time, even under the days of the Blair government, then I think, you know, I think there's a there's a whole world of pain there, frankly, for the Labour government.
Richard Saundry:So I think that that that that third broader aspect about the extent to which the Labour government encourage collective organization, provide a more conducive environment for trade unions to organize, I think is is crucial. Without that, I think a lot of those other measures potentially don't have the impact that they that that that that that's intended. So I think, you know, if I had to pick 3 areas, I think those would be the 3 that I'll pick. K.
Adrian Wright:Yeah. I mean, I think that I I agree that they're really key areas. I think that alongside that, and perhaps something that we can dig into a little bit later is around the way that the government are reorganizing the apprenticeship levy, for training, 50 50% on the apprenticeship levy, 50% on training. Because I think that some of that is the answer for some of the this because I think the key thing is not just what the legislation is. It's how you implement it within organizations and how you support HR to be able to actually do some of this stuff, which, as Richard said, is fairly radical with a small r, you know, in terms of what it intends to do.
Adrian Wright:But I think how it's done is import important, especially within the context of, for example, SMEs who don't have, you know, specialized HR support. Definitely. You know, how are they gonna win separate this? So, you know, dig into the the 5050 apprenticeship levy stuff in a minute. But
Richard Saundry:I I think just just to follow on from that, I mean, I think if you go back to strengthening employment rights generally. If that's going to have a really positive impact. In terms of just in terms of improving fairness and security for employees, but doing what Labour wanted to do. So Labour framed all this and it's really interesting actually. They've framed it all in terms of economic growth.
Richard Saundry:Mhmm. So if you look in the manifesto, that's where this comes. It doesn't come in terms of just like, you know, making things better for people. They frame in terms of economic growth and told you about about secureonomics, which people may have heard about in the States, which sort of president Biden and I hope his star is not exactly his highest at the moment but has been pushing over the last few years. And I think how this I think you're absolutely right highlighting sort of training development in this because how this lands and whether it has that positive impact to improving things in workplaces does depend on how people react.
Richard Saundry:Yeah. How people react is very much dependent. Do they have the skills to deal with this stuff? And I have to say one of my concerns about this is I don't think necessarily that a lot of organizations, the HR professionals, are really ready for this.
Adrian Wright:And I
Richard Saundry:think they've underestimated the impact that some of this stuff might have.
Adrian Wright:Yeah. And I think out of the consult as well. So some of it presumably will go straight through to legislation. Some of it will go through to consultation with bodies such as the CIPD and so on and so forth. How they consult and what comes out of that consultation will be really interesting as well, because that presumably will gain a temperature of what can be done and how it can be done as well, hopefully.
Richard Saundry:Yeah. I think so. I I think I I guess I I guess one one issue is that a lot of the bodies that I will consult like the CIPD, I'm not sure whether necessarily they have a great handle on, like you mentioned, how how a, you know, an SME in Lancashire, you know, employing 30 or 40 people. Yeah. How they'll implement some of these and there's a real danger.
Richard Saundry:If you take the day one employment rights for example, so I'm jumping ahead of it here, but if you take that, I think there's a real danger that that, HR practitioners and particularly people working in smaller organizations are going to see that and they're going to look at that in terms of risk and they're going to think, right okay, how do we respond to this And they are probably going to default to protection, minimizing risk, and making sure that procedures are applied and things like that. A lot of small organizations will get advice from outside consultancies, who are focused very much on minimizing the risk for the people of making workplaces better. What they should be doing is actually thinking, right, how can we stop anybody, you know, how can we prevent conflict and how can we how can we make make make the workplace a better place so that people don't want to take us to an employment tribunal.
Sean Gammon:I mean, you mentioned the word conflict there. I mean, is is there in some instances potential conflict between essentially trying to improve employment equity Yeah. And, economic growth? So is there, in some cases, a tension between those that that maybe, as you say, some organizations are gonna think, I don't like this. I don't think this is good for this organization.
Sean Gammon:Some of perhaps the potential new legislation.
Richard Saundry:Yeah. I think I think that that will be the good reaction because that's that's the approach we've had for the last 2 decades really, you know. We we, you know, we in the UK generally and a lot of people out there, particularly in businesses would probably, I don't know, they they they either dispute this or they or it wouldn't necessarily sort of fit their experience. In the UK, we have really a really low level of employment rights. If you look at employment rights in the UK compared to most of our competitors, apart from the States, apart from the US, Canada maybe, we have really low levels of employment rights, but we have really low levels of productivity as well.
Richard Saundry:So the argument that Rachel Reeves is putting forward and it's long been made, you know, by sort of economists, obvious, but it's but it's become quite fashionable is well, actually, if we have stronger employment rights that pushes employers to actually rather than compete on the grounds of, you know, whether we can employ people cheaply or hire and fire people, we actually invest. If we go into if we we need to keep these people, therefore, we're going to invest in them, so we're gonna train them, we're gonna improve their effectiveness and their efficiency. And there's and in in theory, that argument is great. What Adrian was saying earlier is the what I think sometimes is overlooked is how that how that lands in your average business. Most workplace in the UK, they're not unionized.
Richard Saundry:They're not sophisticated, you know, they're not large sophisticated organizations that have big training budgets. You know, and they there is I think the Labour government really needs to think about how is this going to land. I don't think that means watering things down. No. I think it means, you know, what you hinted at earlier, Adrian, about what else do organizations need to do to make the most of this stuff.
Richard Saundry:I think that that that's the key.
Adrian Wright:I think there's a really interesting piece on how all of this fits together. So on one side, you've got the Fair Work Agency, which presumably is gonna provide some sort of regulation or some sort of check and balance in terms of what organizations are doing. But how is that gonna be managed? The the other piece or side of it is you've got a government that's been quite vocal about its commitment to good quality jobs and good work, which then suggests that presumably, the training programs and stuff like that will focus on that. And then you've got, on the other side of it, a lot of new stuff coming into organizations where HR are gonna have to deal with that when a lot of the answers to job quality, for example, are about effective line management and decent conversations with mem with, with colleagues and doing that element of the, the of the employment relationship.
Adrian Wright:So how does it all fit together when you've got, you know, new legislation, like, for example, around fire and the hiring of fair dismissal, tribunal, employment tribunal time limits being extended and stuff like that alongside, you know, that that job quality. And then it's, I mean, it's a phenomenal piece of work to actually undertake and do. Hence, why it's the radical with the Mhmm. With the small and get maybe getting bigger are.
Richard Saundry:I think I think the the the point Adrian makes about managerial capability and it relates to lots of the research that Adrian and his colleagues have been doing in iRO and also that that I've been doing more recently. I think I think that's the the bit that really does go under the radar and is is is sort of like one of the key pieces of the of the jigsaw here. It's not very fashionable to talk about training managers or boosting managers. But the reality is is that how this is implemented, how a lot of this stuff is implemented particularly in smaller businesses will depend on managers. And there is a real danger, as I mentioned before, and I'm concerned about this, that managers who lack the confidence and the skills and the capability, that's a fairly common thing in UK workplaces as our sort of research has suggested, that they will hide behind a safety blanket.
Richard Saundry:They will go into hiding with this stuff rather than actually grasp the challenge and go, right, what we need to what this should what this should do is encourage managers to have good conversations with people, to manage performance in a constructive way, develop collaborative relationships, which go straight to the issues around job quality that Adrian was talking about. That's what should happen. But unless there's real attempts to give managers the skills they need and the support they need, and to just boost it a little bit as a, I don't know, the image of it I guess. I think that there is a there is a danger that it becomes counterproductive actually, and it worries me a little bit, you know, when you hear, you know, West Streeting recently, you know, talking about managing the health service, you know, was talking about we need to regulate managers and and just that sometimes the rhetoric around managers. I mean, Pierce Starmer, this is way before the election, but I can remember at PMQs, you know, he sort of derided Rishi Sunak as being like a middle a failing middle manager and there's this sort of really negative narrative around management and the reality is that we don't create good workplaces, we don't create good working experiences, we don't create productive workplaces unless you have effective motivated school managers and I think that, you know, the government has a role to play there and that's what I'm not hearing at
Adrian Wright:all at
Richard Saundry:the moment and that that concerns me a bit. Yeah.
Sean Gammon:So I guess we've it's it's it's seeing this, I mean, from an organizational perspective is is is viewing this as an opportunity rather than a threat. And so to to grab it and go, you know, what can we do with this? That's that's and clearly, it's gonna have benefits for the organization. Yeah. In the short term, it's gonna have benefits.
Sean Gammon:But there's also the implication of training and where does this training come from
Richard Saundry:Yeah.
Sean Gammon:Because this is new. This is some of it's new. I know you were discussing with us earlier about negotiation skills and things, but I mean there are there are new skills in which some of these managers will need
Richard Saundry:Yeah.
Sean Gammon:Different levels of management. Who delivers that? Yeah. You know, I think is a is a is a is a case in point. And also, I know we're not talking about universities, but while we're here, you were talking about the the, you know, the change in, you know, apprenticeships and, you know, that that that's gonna free up a lot more to more sort of broader training or just for apprenticeships and for different ages too.
Sean Gammon:Has that got an implication for universities? Yeah.
Adrian Wright:I mean, I think so just to reflect some on the line management conversation I think I mean the CMI did the report about the accidental manager
Richard Saundry:Yeah.
Adrian Wright:Suggesting that, you know, there's lots and lots of, managers out there that don't have that confidence, capability, capacity to be able to line manage effectively. And, and my hope is that the when we get to learn more about the apprenticeship levy versus, other training that that that they're taking out about the 5050 thing. That some of that is focused on online online management and on management skills. I'd imagine quite a lot will go into sort of focus will be on digital or or green stuff and that those sorts of things. And, obviously, they're important.
Adrian Wright:But I think the key to this is, on one side, there's a legislation and there's the regulation. But what actually happens in organizations and how you support them to implement it, whether it be HR or whether it be line managers, I think is is crucial to making all of this work. Because otherwise, you'll get, you know, the Fair Work agents you go potentially, what, go maybe going into organizations. What happens next? You know?
Adrian Wright:Is it just, you know, you're not doing things right, or is there something that that that that happens after that? If we're really gonna promote fair work and job quality, which is another thing that, you know, the link between job quality and productivity. You know, to me, this is fairly well, not straightforward. But, I mean, we've got a lack of high level, managerial skills above level 5, for example. You know?
Adrian Wright:And then we've got low productivity. So if we can sort those sort of things out, then that hopefully will most begin to improve our productivity and stuff like that.
Richard Saundry:I think I think one of the difficulties is that, you know, it's difficult to see Rachel Reeves standing up in the House of Commons or even Angela Rayner or Keir Starmer going, what we're really gonna do to to take things forward is we're gonna train managers. It's not really everyone's gonna, you know, there's gonna be tumbleweed blowing across, you know. It's not a very fashionable thing, but it it's it's it's really crucial and there's a huge demand out there. You you mentioned in in your introduction, Sean, that we've been doing this research project looking at building managerial skills to manage conflict. And when we started that, we we were really struggling to get organizations to take part.
Richard Saundry:And so we we set up like a sales webinar help with the help of ACAS actually who were one of the partners in the project and we thought we might get, you know, I don't know, 50, 60, 100 companies. And we we we focus the same, we'll offer some free training and in return we want to do some research about the impact of it. And literally we had we had a 1,000 people booked, a 1,000 companies booked onto a webinar within half an hour of that going live, of that email going. That's right. Of of us opening that out.
Richard Saundry:We had about, I think it was around 5,000 hits in the 1st day. There is a huge, huge appetite for organizations for this stuff. They know, they know that there's a real deficit. And I think it really is something that governments, universities, providers generally need to really think about, you know, and think about what organizations want. I think the other problem with this is that in the past there's been, you know, I don't know, the government's put put money in and they've thrown a lot of money at it, you know, I'm not and you know, universities have been involved in providing training, leadership training and this I think.
Richard Saundry:I'm not sure whether it's always been fantastically targeted Mhmm. In terms of what what organizations and and the people who manage them really need. And so I think, you know, there needs to be some you're thinking about this, but it needs to be on the gen on the agenda of of the government, definitely.
Adrian Wright:Yeah. And just to throw in another policy initiative while we're at it. I mean, I think that's also helpful towards things like economic inactivity as well. You know, we have, increasing numbers of people offset caused by or made worse by work. Yeah.
Adrian Wright:We've got a large number of, work work of the workforce that are economically inactive. I wonder how much of that is down to the way that we manage people and the way in which we support them during their employment and also support them to return to employment as well, which then goes on to just throw in another policy initiative, flexible work, for example.
Sean Gammon:Mhmm.
Adrian Wright:And those, those sorts of things that, you know, I suppose the the broader point I'm making about all of this is that the policy is good, and I think that, you know, we support it and stuff like that. It's how we implement it and how we make sure that we can support HR to deliver it as well.
Richard Saundry:Employment rights themselves don't deliver better quality jobs, doesn't deliver better quality working experiences, it doesn't doesn't deliver fairness particularly, doesn't deliver in itself more effective workplaces. It's how it's it's a it's a arguably a catalyst towards that. But unless you think about those other elements, then there's then it's problematic. So you take flexible providing stronger rights for people to request flexible working, a manager somewhere is gonna have to deal with that request. Mhmm.
Richard Saundry:And, you know, the the danger is is that managers will react to those requests badly or they'll avoid them because they don't want to go through the hassle of having to deal with someone's to deal with flexible working because it takes time. It gives them another headache potentially. So if you just like just throw it in, if you just throw employment rights into into our existing workplaces without doing anything else, there's the danger that it creates more conflict, that it creates people just return getting sort of going into their safe places and silos. So you, you know, there needs to be some real thought about how this stuff lands. Hopefully, in the consultations that will no doubt take place, you know, some of the organizations will who, you know, obviously, hopefully, you know, people like ourselves might might get involved in that, but also, you know, these big organizations like CIPD and the Chart Management Institute will say these things.
Richard Saundry:I think sometimes with consultations of danger, they say, yeah, we like this, we don't like that rather than actually getting looking at these these broader issues, which are crucial. It has real and it's a shame because I think the danger is is that what is a potentially really progressive agenda just has a lot of unintended consequences, which, you know, which then means that, you know, down the line people drop them, people move away from those approaches.
Sean Gammon:It seems that what's needed then is is is a cultural change, just a blanket cultural change within within management and organizations, and it's just how that's managed. Because people, you know, what we're you know, what's being asked for is for organizations, managers to think differently. Yeah. And, you know, that doesn't happen as you say, you know, that's just not something because you tell them to. It doesn't mean that it's gonna happen.
Sean Gammon:So there has to be some form of cultural change in, you know, in its broadest sense where where they where where let's go back to what we mentioned before to see this as, you know, an opportunity and to change a little bit away in in the way that they have done things in the past, especially towards employees.
Richard Saundry:Yeah. I I agree with that, but I I think part, my only concern with that is that if you say to, okay, if you say to businesses what we need to or or to government, what we need to do is we need to change the culture of how we do things. There's a danger in one of those. Oh, bloody hell, that's massive. How are we gonna do that?
Richard Saundry:It's gonna take years. And I do think I do think there are things that one can do which make a difference. I mean, again, going back to the research that we've been doing, we've in small, we've been one of the projects we're doing was was in micro businesses and we basically train, simple training package, 3 hour training program. But we train every every manager in the business, because it's a micro business, so there might be, I don't know, an owner and 3 managers, let's say, I don't know, of a carpet company in Macrington, and that's not a real organization by the way, but just the exact typical sort of really small business. Because you train everybody in having good conversations, good listening skills, giving good feedback, you train everybody at the same time in that organization who's gonna do that, I do think you can change the culture with something really quite short, sharp, cheap Mhmm.
Richard Saundry:Rather than necessarily something that's really sophisticated, takes ages, and costs a lot of money.
Adrian Wright:I think,
Richard Saundry:you know, I'm not saying that's the solution to everything, but I think we need to think about realistic ways, interventions that that we which will be different in different sectors, the different types of organizations, but be smart ways maybe of just trying to shift the thinking a bit and getting people to just just just look at things in a slightly different way.
Adrian Wright:Absolutely. I think that, I think it's what what's really interesting is I think that that there is a desire from the government to start doing stuff quickly. So when we talk about this first 100 days thing, which is, you know, get as much done as you can early on so you keep the impetus of the government. And I certainly see that's that happening and it's likely to happen. The the the questions is, can everything else keep up with that is another thing.
Adrian Wright:But I think the other thing that's important without wanting to speak, I'm not certainly not doing and gluing about all this. This stuff needs to happen. You know, we are in, really low productivity. We do need to improve job quality, all that sort of stuff. And you can see how it all starts to connect together, but it's the execution.
Adrian Wright:And I think one thing that we haven't talked about so far that you thought that you mentioned in, in the in your introduction, Richard Richard, is the partnerships and partnerships with unions. And that, the union rights and the legislation that they'll put through to support their collective employment relations. And I think that's a really important element of this
Richard Saundry:as well. And I think, you know, I'm not I I don't think this is going to, you know, take us back to the days where, you know, trade unions represented the majority of the work force or anything like that. You know, trade union membership is still relative, you know, has declined over the years and it's still relatively low. It's ticked up a little bit last couple of years, but they still play a very, very influential part in key parts of our of our economic and, you know, and and the the life of the country, you know. And the impacts are potentially huge in the doc the doc distributing the disputes in the NHS are a really good example of that.
Richard Saundry:I don't think actually the discontent that is at the root of those disputes is going away anytime soon because it reflects some really big structural problems and issues. And the Labour government are gonna have to get a grip of that. They're not going to I can't see any way they are going to start doling out really big pay increases. But there are other ways of doing this and there are ways of saying, right, okay. Well, what we're gonna do is let's sit down with you with real partnership and let's get to the root of what are the real what are the broader problems that we can fix about things like working conditions, about improving working practices, take, you know, looking at it in a in a much more in a much broader sense, being a bit more creative about it.
Richard Saundry:And I think if they do that, I think there is the chance to to really forge some proper partnership. And it's frustrating, you know, because we go back to the COVID period and this was really forgotten very soon afterwards. But the trade in the COVID period and over the furlough scheme, suddenly what did Ricci Sunak got get? He got employers in the room, he got TUC in the room, he got Francis O'Grady, he was in the general secretary of the TUC, and they negotiated and they developed something that worked in an in an emergency. And as soon as the soon as the pandemic was finished, that was all forgotten.
Richard Saundry:And I think one can take the spirit of that and say, actually, there is an opportunity again, there is an opportunity here. And I don't think I think if they don't take that opportunity, then then there are going to be significant issues down the line. And again, it comes back to training a little bit because I do think that we've had 30 years of of where employers haven't I need to think about unions, where the government hasn't really need to think about public sector trade unions particularly. Unions have been very weak. They've been probably pretty passive in many instances.
Richard Saundry:And I don't think that's gonna be the case over the next 5 to 10 years and I think HR is gonna have to up its game and upskill itself. I think government is going to have to learn how to negotiate properly. I think probably trade unions as well. I think everybody, they're gonna make the most of some of the ban I mean, they're for example, you know, they're suggesting fair pay agreements in social care. I'm a bit concerned that the very rarest parties haven't necessarily got, again, got the skills, capability, experience to really get the most out of that.
Richard Saundry:So I think there's a job job of work to be done then in terms of really boosting the, I guess, you know, the skills infrastructure that that will make this stuff work, I think.
Adrian Wright:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think what was interesting was West Streetings' first thing that you did, I think it was on a Friday Yeah. Absolutely.
Adrian Wright:Was go to the doctors union and say, right. You know, we're gonna negotiate and very publicly. And then the the BMA came out, I think, about a day later or maybe even the same day and start to say really positive things about the conversations that they had. I mean, time will tell how that ends. But but there does seem to be a change in in terms of partnership work in particularly in the NHS in England, in comparison to example from the previous government, which I think is interesting.
Adrian Wright:The other thing that I think is useful is to think, I mean, I think some of this goes all the way down to branch level and rep level, you know, of being able to unions being able to communicate with HR, being able to make sure that some of this stuff is actually not so check and balance being implemented, but but keep an eye on these legislative changes and be able to, unions play their part in partnership with different elements of the organization to make this stuff happen.
Richard Saundry:Yeah. It was really interesting that we we were both at a conference yesterday, which I wrote organized looking at, you know, employment relation in the NHS. And one of the speakers there was from Unison, And he made the point, and I agree with this, I mean, this backs up a lot of the research that we've done over the years, is that actually you get real better relationships and you get better, sort of, approaches to conflict resolution and things like that, where you have quite strong unions. Mhmm. Because where you have strong unions, you quite often have the representatives can really represent their their work, their colleagues because it's high, you know, most of them are in the union.
Richard Saundry:But also, on the management side, the management side has to listen to them properly. They take them seriously. Therefore, they have to engage in this. So I I think there's again, one of the areas of potential here is there is quite a lot in here for trade unions in terms of helping them strengthen their organization and lots of employers. I'm sure Amazon at the moment will be looking at and thinking that's the last thing we want.
Richard Saundry:But actually maybe or maybe employers like Amazon need to be essentially pushed towards realizing that they have to engage with their workforce. They have to they have to negotiate. They have to consult properly. And, you know, I think that could be a really positive change. But again, employers are gonna have to embrace that.
Richard Saundry:I think, you know, they can resist. That's one strategy or they can embrace it. And I think if they embrace it, I think there's lots of benefits there potentially for for for for all parties. But, you know, again, we will see what happens, in the consultation. So I think there will be pressure now.
Richard Saundry:Before the election, everyone wants to be nice to Labour, you know, they all wanna be not what they're saying, you know, they all want to cozy up to Angela Rayner and Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer. Now the election's done and this is a reality, we might now see some pushback from big business saying, actually, we don't want this. This is gonna impact negatively on our profits. And I I just hope actually that that, I think it's really important that on some of these issues that the the government sticks to its guns because we know from a lot of research and what happens in internationally, employers do need to be nudged to do the right thing. They're not, you know, in in the sort of economy that we have, they're not necessarily going to be they're going to adopt progressive working practices because they think it's a great idea because short term profit quite often predominates and drives things.
Richard Saundry:So employees do need to be pushed to do things in the right direction and maybe some of these measures can do that.
Sean Gammon:So as as, you know, we've we've discussed right at the beginning, there's a there's a lot happening. There's a lot going on. And I've I've, you know, I really, you know, found that, you know, your observations about it's this isn't just about management training, but it's also about the unions maybe thinking about doing things slightly different. They're in a slightly different world and maybe that they need to think about how they negotiate and Yeah. And, you know, come to some sort of resolution, which is which is acceptable to both parties just under you know, so which I think is really it's more nuanced, I think, but nevertheless, I think really is really important.
Sean Gammon:Is there something I can say this probably asked to to to both of you. Is there something that you're really genuinely excited about? And is there something in terms of these commitments and perhaps future legislation, is there something that you're genuinely really excited about? And is there something that you're a little bit anxious about?
Adrian Wright:Okay. First, it's a big question. I'm gem I'm I'm excited about the policies. I think the policies are good policies, and I think that the things like fire and rehire, workers enhance workers' rights, flexible work, all you know, there's a lot of stuff in there that for a work and employment academic is stuff that we're gonna like. I think that the key thing for me is has been the theme of this is it's about what happens in the consultation.
Adrian Wright:How does it get implemented? And, and then also how how is it gonna work. And I think there's an opportunity there, because I think part of it is, you know, for example, the, apprenticeship levy in the 5050 training. I think there's an opportunity there to where where it can work, but I think it it all constituent parts have to come along, you know, to make this stuff. Because the worst thing that could happen, I suppose, is that you do all this stuff and then you have to roll back because it's just impossible to actually operationalize, for example, or or or make work so you end up having to drop some of it.
Adrian Wright:And that would be the worst case scenario for me. I'm not saying the other thing is I'm not saying that we shouldn't necessarily do this quickly because I think there's a time to capture the, a, the public mood, but also, I think people are prepared for workplace changes at the moment with the new Labor government coming in. So I think there's a time to do it. But as ever, and not really given a very clear answer, it's the detail of how it's gonna work. Okay.
Richard Saundry:I I think my my big concern is how that that if if these measures are just simply introduced onto the statute book as we see them today. Let's let's see what happens with the constitution. If they're there's something like what we've got today and just introduced so we strengthen employment rights etcetera. My big fear is that what the the reaction to that is going to be potentially counterproductive. I'll just give you one example.
Richard Saundry:So the Blair government had tried to tried to make workplace procedures more fair and one of the things that came out of that was we had what was called the 3 step disciplinary process. So every organization had to have a 3 step process if they were going to sack somebody essentially. And everybody when it was first introduced, people thought, that's great. This is it creates fairness in all workplaces. And it was a disaster.
Richard Saundry:And it was a disaster for everybody, for employers and employees, because all everybody did, they just formalized everything in the workplace. And basically nobody had really thought what impact this is going to have. And so what happened eventually was it was just sort of eventually sort of abolished and everybody sort of forgot about it as being a slightly unfortunate experience in the past. I think that's the danger. Mhmm.
Richard Saundry:And I think what we the thing I'm excited about is the emphasis in here, which is genuinely new. Well, I mean, you know, it was previous it's been in the last couple of labor manifestos, but in terms of a lay of a government, it's genuinely it goes way beyond what the Blair government were introducing and that's about collective strengthening collective representation because that is the way which you deliver better employment and fairness in reality, where you have management and employees, you know, on more equal terms or on slightly more equal terms being able to negotiate and regulate and may try to work together in workplaces. So I think, you know, just relying on the law never really delivers for either organization or individuals. We need something else and maybe this, you know, strengthening collective organization, having stronger unions, but also as you were mentioning Sean, you know, unions who perhaps also sort of grasp the nettle of trying to work in partnership with employers, I think that that is a genuinely exciting prospect, but it's gonna be tough.
Sean Gammon:Well, I think that's a that's a that's a great time to, to to stop today because I think we could just go on and on and on. But once again, many thanks to professor Richard Sondry for sharing his thoughts and insights with us today. It's really much appreciated. Pleasure. I think we'll be taking extra notice of what the king's speech will include tomorrow.
Sean Gammon:I think I will be looking at that very closely, and we hope you've, enjoyed the discussion today. And please do let us know if you want to us to, to cover anything, any of the issues related to organizations, work, and employment by either contacting, Adrian Wright at iro or myself, Sean Gavin. But until the next podcast, it's a goodbye from us. Goodbye.