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A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.
Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
tell real stories about faith, failure,
redemption, and those "Lord, I'm gonna
need you to explain this one" moments.
Some stories are inspiring, some
are messy, some are miraculous,
and some probably should have
come with a warning label.
But through every chapter of
every story, God has a plan.
And he's never been
afraid of a little chaos.
We're Jill.
And Kerrye.
Let's turn the page
Well, we're here today with,
uh, a repeat guest, and that's
Pastor Thomas Hale and Dr.
Travis Arterberry.
We're so excited to have
both of y'all here today.
Um, and what would you like to talk, what
chapter would you like to talk about in
life, in, in your experiences, whatever?
Okay.
Well, I thought I'd just
give my testimony with- Yes.
Perfect ⦠y'all with me, since
nobody knows me, I- Yeah ⦠I,
I think that would be good.
Yeah, yeah.
So, uh, however you want me to
start on that, I- However you
w- wherever you wanna start.
Okay.
Tell us about yourself.
Well, well, first of
all, I'm, I'm married.
I've been married 62
years to the same woman.
Congratulations.
Yes, that's an
accomplishment in these days.
Yeah, and, uh, I have, uh, two sons and,
uh, four grandchildren, and, um, I've
got, uh, one great-grandchild on the
way, and so we're excited about that.
But, uh, uh, we've lived in
Russellville for now since 1970.
Mm.
So we've lived here a long time, and I was
a professor at Arkansas Tech for, uh- Okay
20 years, and then- Nice ⦠I
started a consulting firm and did
that all over the United States-
Mm-hmm ⦠and, uh, in ergonomics.
And- Oh, okay ⦠yeah, in fact, I,
I did, uh, two years, uh, release
from Arkansas Tech to work for Tyson.
Okay.
Uh, they, they asked me to come on
and as a consultant with them for
two years, and so I've been in all
of their plants all over the country.
Plus, I, you know, it expanded
and I started doing that.
I left Arkansas Tech and did that
consulting, uh, full-time and so forth.
So, uh, that's kind of my, my Who you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, uh, what I'd like to talk about
is my spiritual life, and- Okay.
Mm-hmm ⦠you know, I, I grew up
in Texas and, uh, didn't actually
go to church until I was 10.
Um, my parents, we had,
uh, uh, rural paper routes.
We delivered papers- Okay ⦠and
we had early morning delivery, and
on- Mm-hmm ⦠Sunday we were up
at 2:00 to take those papers then.
Mm.
So we didn't, uh ⦠When we got
through, everybody went to bed.
And- Yeah ⦠so, and we weren't atheists.
We just didn't- Yeah ⦠attend church,
but I never did attend till I was 10.
But- You know, when, whenever I was
10, I, I attended, uh, a church for the
first time, and, and I've, I'd never
heard what they were talking about.
I- Yeah ⦠it was just new to me.
Oh.
But, uh- What, what kind of church was it?
It was a Baptist church-
Okay ⦠in, in Texas.
Okay.
And, uh, I went to a, a Baptist encampment
one summer, and in that c- uh, en- that
camp, I, I really came under conviction.
It was a, um, just a arbor type thing,
open air- Mm-hmm ⦠type thing,
you know, and, and sawdust floor and
all- Yeah ⦠that kind of stuff.
And I, I remember being under
conviction and stepping out and going
forward, you know, to where they
were, uh, giving the, uh, invitation.
But, uh, for some reason,
it's just like a blank.
I never, never knew what happened.
Uh- Wow.
Really?
⦠from the time I stepped out into the aisle
to, I never remember talking to anybody.
I never remember anything.
Wow.
Um, it's just like a blank.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, the next day, I did the
same thing, and a minister came
and asked me about it, and I said,
"Well, I did that yesterday."
And they s- they, so they
assumed that I'd been saved.
Mm-hmm.
And so I assumed- Yeah.
Yeah ⦠and I, you know, I
was baptized, and I grew up
and thinking that that was it.
Mm-hmm.
But I'd never had peace about it.
Mm.
I just, something was wrong.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, so anyway, uh, married and,
and, uh, went to, went to college.
I, I, I was an athlete.
I, I had a full ride
ba- to play basketball.
Okay.
And so- Nice ⦠I did, I did
that, and I was very fortunate,
uh, to, to be able to do that.
And so after marriage, we, my wife
and I, we moved to, uh, Tyler, Texas.
Mm-hmm.
And she taught school,
and I taught school.
And, and then, uh, I felt like I needed
to go back to graduate school, and
so I went back and completed a PhD.
And- Mm-hmm ⦠and we had our two
boys, and then we came to, uh, Arkansas.
And so- Mm-hmm ⦠uh, we've,
we've been here ever since.
We found a place.
We found a good home.
But, um, my spiritual journey began,
uh, I began to feel the, the drawing
of, of the Lord, and I really didn't
know what I was supposed to do.
I thought I'd done what
I was supposed to do.
I- Yeah ⦠you know, uh, whenever
you'd ask somebody, say, "Well,
uh, did you pray to receive?
Did you, did you, uh, were you baptized?"
Mm-hmm.
"Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah."
But I punched all the- Yeah ⦠the,
the things, but- Mm-hmm ⦠uh,
something wasn't right.
And anyway, I decided I, I, uh I was in
a meeting at, uh, First Baptist here in
Russellville, and, uh, it was a luncheon.
And, uh, they started singing a song,
does anybody here wanna live forever?
Say I do.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Anybody here want a home in glory?
Mm-hmm.
Say I do.
And something in me like just screamed,
"Oh, God, I want, I want that."
Mm-hmm.
"I really want that."
And so I decided I would,
uh, read the Bible.
And so I started in Matthew.
I thought that was a good place.
Yeah.
And so I was reading, didn't really
understand much, and I got over to
about, I think it's about chapter
10, 9 or 10, and I read a, a passage
that said, "He that loves mother,
father, uh, husband, wife, children
more than me is not worthy of me."
Mm-hmm.
I just stopped.
I said, "Well, I know I
love my wife and- Mm-hmm
I love my children more than I love God."
Yeah.
"I know that."
I, and so I just, I said, "Well,
I, I can't be a Christian."
Mm-hmm.
"I, I don't.
I, I don't- Yeah.
Mm-hmm ⦠I can't, I can't
do anything about that."
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, and, uh, so I, I just closed the book.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, and then I, I'm, uh, you know,
I, I was active in church and, and,
uh, I mean, they even made me a deacon.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
But I'm like, "Ah, I don't know."
But I, but you know, I
was, uh, going along.
But I was visiting my mom in, in
Texas, and she had been saved and
baptized in the Holy Ghost, and she,
she s- ⦠had explained it to me.
And- Yeah ⦠and I'm
like, oh my goodness.
Now, my mother, uh,
she was something else.
She was- And, uh, so she's asking me,
uh, about, uh, speaking in tongues.
And I said, "Well, Mom, I, uh,
whatever God wants from me,
it's good, that's good for me.
I'd, I'dâ¦"
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And boy, she, she took that as a yes.
Well, good for her.
She said, "Okay."
She took that as a yes.
Yeah.
And I mean, she's up, she's
making an appointment for me to
see her, her pastor and all this.
And anyway- She's like,
"I got you covered"
a, a, um, a journey started.
Oh my goodness.
I, I went to meet him and,
and he explained things to
me, and he laid hands on me.
And I'm gonna tell you, it was-
I, I don't-- I've never, I've
never had anything like it.
Mm-hmm.
It was a, a force of power that
swirled around me that was incredible.
I, I, I mean, it-- The only thing that
I could, uh, any experience that I'd
ever had that was similar to it would
be, I like to do a lot of canoeing.
Mm.
And sometimes you get caught up
in the rapids, and the- Yeah.
⦠the rapids would beat against
you so, you know, rip.
Yeah.
Well, it was kinda like that.
It was justâ¦
But it wasâ¦
I mean, it was powerful.
I was absolutely- Wow.
I couldn't move.
It wasâ¦
Anyway, um, and so, um, I, uh, the
ne- I was scheduled to go and, and
play golf with a friend of mine at the
university where I'd gone to school.
And, and, and so I was, I was miserable.
That was on Friday that, uh,
that I met with the pastor,
and I was absolutely miserable.
I didn't sleep any Friday night.
And, uh, so I'm driving
about 50 miles to play golf.
Yeah.
And, oh, uh, deep, deep conviction
would come on me, and I would
cry so hard I couldn't see.
And I'd- Wow
pull my car off the road, and
I would just sit there and cry.
I just- Mm ⦠like, I, it was
just blackness coming up out of me.
And I'd get back on the road, and
I'd drive for a while, and, but I
was crying so hard I couldn't see.
I'd pull off again.
I don't know how many times I did that.
Wow.
And, um, so I get, I get to
where I'm playing golf, and I
had a miserable day playing golf.
And, uh, anyway, uh, on
the way back, same thing.
Oh, I cried so hard I couldn'tâ¦
I just couldn't, couldn't go.
And, and finally, whenever I reached my,
my parents' home, I walked in, my mother
said, "Oh, son, you're under conviction."
I mean- She knew right away.
Oh, she, sheâ¦
Oh.
And so she's on the phone.
She-- This is a Saturday evening, and
she had me scheduled to meet at the
church, and- Let Mom take care of it.
Oh, oh, whenever I got there, I
mean, the church was full of people.
They just came to pray for me.
Aw.
That's amazing.
Uh, uh, oh, it was absolutely amazing.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, I was-
I was there.
I mean, and, uh, people around
me praying, laying hands on me.
It was, uh, uh, some
of it was distracting.
I mean, a lot of people
speaking in tongues- Mm-hmm
that I did, I wasn't-
Yeah ⦠familiar with.
I didn't know what that
was- Yeah ⦠really.
And, but, uh, you know, I'm seeking the
Lord and, uh, so I don't know, it was
like, uh, well, uh, nothing happened.
So we- Wow ⦠I go home and I, I sleep,
I do not sleep on Saturday night, so I
go with my mom to church on Sunday, and
they give the invitati- invitation and
I, I hit the altar and, and oh, I mean,
the church fell out and began to pray.
And the Lord, uh, began to
speak to me, the first time I'd
ever heard the voice of God.
Mm.
And, uh, uh, I, Iâ¦
Whenever, uh, whenever I was, uh, you
know, uh, there, the Lord began to take
me very, to back to the very passage
of scripture where I quit reading.
Mm.
Wow.
You love mother and father.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and he said, uh, uh, uh,
"You love your wife more than me."
And I'm like, "Oh, God."
And so I would, in a spirit, I would take
her and I would put her out on the altar.
Mm-hmm.
And then I'd bring her back.
Mm-hmm.
Then I'd put her out there.
And I'd bring herâ¦
It was such a battle.
It was, uhâ¦
Finally, I just surrendered
and gave her to him.
Mm-hmm.
And then he said, "Do you
love your boys more than me?"
Mm.
Oh, I can't tell you the pain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just can't tell you.
Mm-hmm.
And I just back and forth, uh,
and finally I released that, and,
and then, then he said, he said,
"That PhD means nothing to me."
And I had a, I had a-- My wife
had given me a ring that had a
diamond in it for, for graduation.
Mm-hmm.
And he said, "It means nothing to me."
And in a moment of I, I could tell
what the, uh, what I had, what
that was compared to who he was.
Mm-hmm.
And it was n- Yeah ⦠it was nothing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was absolutely a microdot.
Yeah.
And I'm like, "Oh."
And so I reached over and I, I
took it off, and I put it in my
pocket, and I never wore it again.
Wow.
And, uh, so, uh, I get up and, uh, the
church that I, I was in, they believed
you had to speak in tongues to be saved.
Mm.
And I didn't.
Yeah.
And so they told me that I wasn't saved.
Now, here's the irony of it.
I went to the Baptist church, uh, they
told me I was saved, and I wasn't.
Then I went to the Pentecostal church,
I got saved, and they told me I wasn't.
Yeah.
So
Yeah.
And so I was like- And that just
lets you know ⦠wow, okay, so-
It's not anybody else's decision or-
they don't have the authority ⦠so
I, it was really, you know, and so, uh,
uh, I left there, but- Well, that day,
I had never had a cassette tape ever-
Mm ⦠of any preaching or anything.
Mm-hmm.
I g- I got one that day.
Mm-hmm.
And on one side of the tape, it was
speaking in tongues, and the other side,
it was being filled with the Spirit.
Wow.
And I'm, I'm like, "I,
I never had one before."
Mm-hmm.
"And, and I've got, I got one."
You know?
And so anyway, um, it started a
journey, and the Lord began to
disciple me with cassette tapes.
I, I probably, I had 4,000 or 5,000.
Wow.
No, no, I tell you, I, I was
actually discipled by some
of the best teachers ever.
Mm.
I'm telling you, they, they- But where do
you keep 4,000 or 5,000 cassette tapes?
Oh, oh, I've- You know?
Don't-- I don't wanna
bring that up to my wife.
Those little drawer things.
But, uh- I used to have them.
Well, I mean, you have
them, like, 4,000 or 5,000.
Wow ⦠I, I, I was, uh, I was never
in my car if I wasn't listening.
Yeah.
I had, I had one going all the time,
and I was, I was growing so fast.
But I had such a hunger.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I heard that there were three,
uh, ministers preaching in Little
Rock, uh, on, uh, on the same night.
Mm-hmm.
So I said, "I got, I gotta go to this."
Yeah.
So I, I go to Little Rock,
and I'm, I am, uh, listening.
I'm just, uh, soaking up
everything I can hear.
And, um, I'm telling you, uh, the, uhâ¦
One man stood up, and I mean, one guy
was preaching, and he said, "Well,
I've just gotta tell you, uh, what,
something that happened to me."
And, uh, he said, "I, I was
preaching a revival in Texarkana."
And he said, "I was staying in
the home of, uh, the pastor."
And he said, "After the service one
night," said, "we were having some, uh,
uh, dessert, some pie and so forth."
Mm-hmm.
And, and he, the, the pastor said,
"I, I just gotta con- uh, convey
to you the h- hurt in my heart."
He said, uh, "My-- I've got a daughter
in the bedroom in there that's dying."
Mm.
"Uh, she's anorexic."
Said, "We've had her to every
doctor we know to get her
to, and, and she's just- Wow
she's down to, like, 75 pounds."
Mm-hmm.
My goodness.
And said, "We-- She's just dying."
Mm-hmm.
And he said, "I, uh, I w- would like for
you t- if you would, if we could go in
and pray for her before we go to bed."
And he said, "I went in there," and
he said, uh, "I began to pray for
her, and I began to rebuke, uh, the
spirit of anorexia, and her knees
came up in her chest, and she gave
a sigh, and she straightened out,
and she never, she never woke up."
And, um, the next morning she
jumps up out of bed, she runs
into her parents' bedroom.
She says, "I'm hungry, I'm hungry."
And she was totally healed.
That's amazing.
And, and it was talking about, uh,
this spirit that had invaded her life.
Yeah.
And I'm like, "What?"
I'd never heard of anything like that.
Yeah.
I mean, I ju- I, I don't know.
I've, uhâ¦
Being in church, I, I don't think
I'd ever heard the word demon.
I don't know.
I, I'd never heard my- Or
stronghold or anything like that.
I, I'd never heard of anything like that.
Mm-hmm.
Any kind of a stronghold or a possession.
I, I didn't know anything.
Wow.
And so, I mean, it's a
whole new ballgame for me.
And so anyway, I'm, uh, um, the dean of my
school at Tech, uh, uh, I was teaching at
First Baptist, uh, one Sunday night, and
in the, in the teaching I was outlining,
uh, a testimony, your personal testimony.
And, and the personal testimony included
things like, uh, uh, the drawing of the
Holy Spirit, uh, to the Lord- Mm-hmm
and, uh, the events that led up to
it, and the actual event of your
salvation, and then your life afterwards.
I was giving, I think there were
five different steps- Mm-hmm ⦠that
I was going over with people.
And I said, "This would be your
testimony, how you would write
your testimony and so forth."
And so That was on a Sunday night.
And then on Monday, uh, my dean, who was
a personal friend of mine, he calls me
and he says, "Can I come to your office?"
I said, "Well, of course."
You know, and he comes over and he sits
down, and he said, um, whenever we were
writing out the testimony, he said,
whenever it came to the part where what
happened when you actually got saved, he
said, "I didn't have anything to write."
He said, "I signed a card.
I, I went forward in the church, and
I met somebody, and they said, 'I'm
glad you came,' and signed this card."
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
He said, "I, I never did pray a prayer.
I never did do anything."
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, "Hello, I think
that's kind of what happened to me."
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, and I s- and I mean,
immediately the Lord said s-
uh, 7:00 tonight at the church.
I heard, heard Him say clearly,
"Get, get the people together,
7:00 tonight at the church."
So we gathered together and, and, uh,
I said, "Here's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna get down here on the altar."
I had four, five, six people that
came to pray with him, and I, I said,
"I'm gonna be right here by you, and
we're gonna pray until you meet God."
Mm-hmm.
And so we're, we're praying, and,
uh, he reached over and he grabbed
me, he said, "I just got it.
I, I just met the Lord."
Wow.
And so h-he w- his life
was totally changed.
Well, now then, we are-- After
I-- He w- he's the dean of the
school, and he calls me and he says,
um, "I just gotta talk to you."
He said, "My student
worker said she wasâ¦"
It's a, a, a girl.
"She was in my office and said
we were talking, and said we were
talking about spiritual things,"
and said, "She went into a trance."
Uh, and she's just sitting
there on the couch in my office
and she goes into a trance.
And he said, "I, I
didn't know what to do."
He said, he said, "I had another meeting.
I, I just kinda laid her down on
the couch and took my coat off
and covered her and left her."
And, uh, and, uh, uh, he said,
"What do you, what do you think?
What do you think that is?"
I said, "Well, I'd, I'd just been to
Little Rock and heard the guy talk."
Yeah.
I said, "Well, that's,
that sounds demonic to me.
I don't know.
I, it's, I don't think
that's God, that's for sure."
Uh, so, uh, when he came back,
well, she was gone, you know?
And, and so that rocked on and
then about, I don't know, it was,
it might've been a month later or
something, um, I was asleep one night
and about midnight my phone rang, and
that's always kind of disconcerting.
Yes.
Yes.
And, uh, it was my dean,
and he said, "Listen."
He said, that student worker, she
had gotten married and she was
living in married housing- Mm-hmm
uh, on the campus.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, Fremont Apartments.
I don't know if you're
ever familiar with that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But anyway, uh, he said, uh, her husband
has called me and said they were talking,
uh, they were, uh, having a prayer
time at, at home and said she went
into a trance and he wants us to come.
And I'm like, oh, boy.
Here we go.
Oh, boy.
You know?
Yep.
And so, uh, I sit up on the
bed and I said, "Oh God, you're
gonna have to help me here."
Mm-hmm.
Y- you know, I don't know.
And so we go And I walk in, we walk in,
and my dean, he, he knew the husband.
I didn't know any of them.
But they started talking, and, uh, the
wife, she was sitting on the couch.
She was just sitting up real
straight and stiff, like a statue.
Mm-hmm.
And she, she was looking off in a
direction away from us over toward
the wall, and s- she was just staring.
She was in a trance.
And so I'm-- while they're talking,
I'm, I'm walking back and forth,
and I said, "Lord, who do I call?
Who, who do I get?
Uh, uh, help me here.
Who do I get?"
And the Lord said, "Why do you, why
do you think I got you over here?"
Yeah.
And I'm like- They called
you ⦠"Lord" You're the one.
"Uh, Lord, I, I don't know anything.
I, I don't, I don't know
anything about this."
And so I walked over in front of her,
and I, I, I spoke to her husband.
I said, "Uh, I think we have
a demonic problem here."
And whenever I said that, this ne-
this, this girl, she's sitting up
straight, she's staring off in this
direction, and she never moved a
muscle, but her eyes turned and looked
toward me whenever I said, "I believe
we have a demonic problem here."
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, "Oh, wow."
It, it heard you.
It heard me, and it-- and so I just
stepped up, and here's my witness.
The hand of God was in my back.
I could feel- Wow ⦠his hand in my back.
And- Like you're doing this, yeah ⦠and
I, I said, and I've, I'd never done this.
I never heard anybody do it.
I said, "Demon of hell, I'm a son of God.
I have authority over you."
And whenever I said that She's sitting
straight and she goes down the couch.
She never moves a muscle.
She goes down the couch, zoom.
Oh.
And then she comes back, zoom.
Oh.
And then she went down the
couch, and she came back.
She made two full trips down that couch.
And I said, "You come outâ¦"
Oh, Holy Spirit.
"You come out of her," and
boom, up in the air she went.
Uh, she went up in the air
and she went over likeâ¦
It's like you wad up a
piece of paper and toss it.
Wow.
That's the way it went.
She went up in the air and over
into the floor, and went up in a
ball and screamed and went limp.
Mm-hmm.
And her husband fell on top of
her and he said, "Oh, she's dead.
She's dead."
And I said, "No, no, no.
She's fine.
She's fine now."
Mm-hmm.
And she sat up and she looked around
and said, "What are y'all doing?"
She didn't even know.
What, what, what?
And she saw her, her dean at the-
Yeah ⦠"What, what are you doing here?"
Yeah, and who are you, sir?
Yeah, who are you?
What- Wow ⦠what are
you, what are y'all doing?
Wow.
And, uh, so, you know, and
then she said, "I'm starving."
She hadn't eaten in two or three days.
Wow.
But, oh, my goodness, I, I remember
we, we got in the car and my dean,
he's, he looked over at me and he
said, "I might be, I might live to
be an old man, but I'll never deny
the power of the name of Jesus."
Yeah.
Whenever I said Jesus, oh, my goodness.
If, if people, if, if church-going
people could see a demonstration of
what the name actually will do- Yeah
oh, it's so powerful.
And so, my goodness, I, I just
like, you know, Lord, what?
So now then, I'm, I'm sitting,
I'm sitting at my dining table.
Uh, I, I went home for lunch one day.
I checked the mail and I was having
a little lunch, and I was sitting
there, and Lord gave me a vision.
And in the vision, I heard him
say, "Out of the abundance of
the heart, the mouth speaks."
And I, I saw myself with a notepad,
and I was, I was listening to someone
speak, and I was writing something.
Mm-hmm.
And he says, "If you'll listen to people,
I'll show you what their heart is."
Yeah.
And so I said, "Okay.
Okay."
So then a friend of mine c- uh, came
to me and, uh, he said, "Travis," he
said, uh, "the Lord spoke to me and
he said, he told me to help you."
I said, "Wellâ¦"
His name is Ken.
He was a, he was a professor also.
He- I said, "Ken, what am I doing?
You're gonna help me do what?"
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Okay, what are we doing?
He said, "I don't know.
All I know is he told me to help you."
Yeah.
I said, "Okay.
Okay."
So then I, I, I get a
call, uh, from a woman.
She went to our church, and she
was, she was needing some ministry.
Well, Iâ¦
Okay.
So I thought, well, Ken said
he wanted to help, so Call him.
So I called him.
Yeah.
I said, "Uh, Ken, I, I, I've got, I
got a woman that needs, needs prayer.
Uh, do you want to go?"
"Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah."
And so we go, and so we're, we're
ministering to her best we knew how.
We didn't know much.
And, um, so I, I mean, I'm
going until I hit a wall.
I'm like, as far as I know, I don't,
I don't know what else to do here.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I said, "Lord,
I, I gotta have help."
Mm-hmm.
And the Lord said, uh, "Ken's got it."
Ken's got it.
I said, "Okay."
Excellent.
So I, I j- All right.
I, Iâ¦
Okay.
Uh, Ken, I said, "Uh, Ken,
what do you, what do you got?"
Oh, he didn't want to tell me.
He said, "Well," he said, "there's
a big bear standing behind her."
He said, "He's got real long claws."
And he said, "She's got a scar
on her back, and he reaches
up and he claws that scar.
And when he does, it opens
up and flies come out of it."
Ooh, wow.
"And then after a while, it will
heal up, and then he reaches up
and he claws it again, and it
opens up and flies come out."
And he said, "I have no
idea what that means."
I said, "It's okay, I know."
Lord gave me the interpretation
of what he had just seen.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I asked her, I said, "Okay, um,
something has happened in your past.
There's something that's hard for you to
talk about, but we need to talk about it.
Wh- what happened?"
And sh- oh, she began to weep.
Oh.
And she said, "Oh," said,
"My father molested me."
And she said, "I, I get over
it, but then it comes back."
Mm-hmm.
"Then I get over it, and it comes back."
So we prayed, started praying for
her, and the power of God fell
on that woman, and she got free.
She jumped up.
She started running around the house.
"I'm free.
I'm free.
I'm free."
And so- Wow ⦠it was a glorious-
experience.
And so then I get home and I'm
like, "Lord, I, I need, I need a
television like Ken's got, that
I can see in the spirit realm.
I need to see-" Yeah.
"⦠be, I need to see, be able to see that."
And, and, uh, Lord said,
"You don't need two TVs."
I said, "I don't- I'm
just asking for one."
He said, "You've already got one.
You've got Ken."
I said- Wow.
"Oh, okay."
Ken has been with me for now 35, 40 years.
Wow.
We've ministered toge- together over
hundreds, literally hundreds of people.
Wow.
And he sees in, he sees in the spirit.
He's got the gift of discerning of
spirits, and he can see these things.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, he, Lord's given me the
authority to, to move them out.
Mm-hmm.
He sees them.
Weâ¦
But, uh, anyway, so we've got
one coming up Monday night.
It's, uh, a referral from counselors
across Arkansas that they can't
do anything with this woman, and
they want us to deal with it.
So he'll be there.
And so- Wow ⦠we'll, we'll be going
after it again- Wow ⦠coming Monday, so.
That's amazing.
Mm-hmm.
But, uh, anyway, um, uh, so
I, I got, I started getting
notebooks and filling those up.
Mm-hmm.
And I've kept them, and, uh, I've got
well over 100 notebooks that I filled up-
Wow ⦠with, with the page after page
after page of people that have been free.
But, uh, uh, the Lord
just starts sending them.
They just starts coming from everywhere.
I, I've ne- never any advertisement
or anything like that.
Mm-hmm.
It's just all at once people s- I
don't know how they would find out.
But they, they'd call
and say, "Can I come?"
Uh, fr- People want freedom.
Yes.
Yeah.
There's a woman came from Oklahoma City.
I don't know how in the world.
She had 31 personalities.
Oh.
31 different personalities.
Wow.
Oh, my goodness.
And we ⦠She, her, her husband
came and, and oh, it was one,
it was a bizarre situation.
But, you know, we started casting
those things out and- You know,
and then, then it, one would speak
and say, "Well, you know what?
I, I know this man.
Uh, he's not my husband.
I was at the wedding, but I didn'tâ¦
I'm not the one that married him."
You know, it's stuff like that.
Oh my goodness.
Oh, it, it w- I mean,
it was, it was amazing.
How many hours does that take?
Like- Oh, well, you know, I
usually set aside two hours
for a- Mm-hmm ⦠a ministry.
Yeah.
But, um, I don'tâ¦
Sometimes they, they get longer.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
But, uh, uh, two hours it- is
about, about the length- Mm-hmm
for most of them.
But it, uhâ¦
And I always like to
minister at, at my home.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, the reason I do that is
because I know what's there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've already- I know what's
there ⦠prayed over it and- You're,
you're, you're on my territory.
Yes.
Right.
You're the authority there.
You're in my place.
Yeah.
And I know what goes on here, and
I know what doesn't go on here.
And so, uh, people come, I,
uh, whenever people would come,
I would light up the place.
I mean, it, I had every light on.
There's no darkness anywhere.
Mm.
Uh, and, uh, people would come and, umâ¦
I had one woman that came,
she had actually destroyed
a church in, in Akron, Ohio.
I talked to her pa- the pastor of
that church, and he said she showed
up one day and said the demons
manifested, and we couldn't do anything.
They, they, itâ¦
She just destroyed the
church, tore up everything.
Mm.
Now she's sitting in my living room.
It's not gonna be up there.
I, I, I actually didn't
know that at the time.
Yeah.
I didn't know all that.
I found all that out later.
But anyway, oh my goodness, that
woman was so demonized when sh-
when we started ministering.
Always will, uh, whenever I'm, uh,
pretty sure that it's a demonic thing-
Always make the declaration right off
that, uh, uh, I have authority over you.
You will not, you will not
make any outward demonstration
unless I give you permission to.
Uh, you will speak whenever I tell you to
speak, and you'll be silent other times.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
A- and, uh, so we start
ministering to her.
Well, bam, she goes to the floor,
starts writhing like a snake, and
then she starts trying to hit me and
scratch me and get up in my face and
say, "I'm gonna claw your eyes out."
And I'm like, "No."
Mm-mm.
"No."
And I, I have purposed that I'll
never move a muscle on that.
I'm not gonna- Mm-hmm ⦠move one muscle.
Mm-mm.
Wow.
And, uh, the reason I do that is
because the Lord gave me the scripture
when Jesus came back, I believe it
was the 70 returned, and, and He
said, "I give you authority to s- to
tread on serpents and scorpions and
over all the works of the devil."
And this is the part that
really resonated, "And nothing
by any means will hurt you."
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm like, "You can't touch me."
No.
Yeah.
You cannot touch me, and I've
had many, many, many try.
Yeah.
Try to, but they can't touch me-
Yeah ⦠because He said they couldn't.
Yeah.
And so, uh, one of the things that
really became to, it came into play
a lot, I, whenever I have a, a person
that I know I'm gonna minister to,
like I have one on Monday, I will, uh,
get alone with the Lord, and I will,
I get my noteput, pad out, and I s-
I, I pray this prayer: "Lord, is there
something I need to know about this?
Th- this person that's coming, d- is there
something I need to know about this?"
And the Lord starts giving me words
of knowledge that's just abâ¦
It's the most incredible thing.
The Lord starts showing me
something about the person there's
no way that I would ever know.
Mm-hmm.
And most times, it's like
nobody knows except them.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
It, it's justâ¦
I'll tell you, that gift is so precious.
Yeah.
It's just so precious.
Yeah.
And so tho- those, uh,
things start coming.
Uh, it, it's, uh, uh, um, like
one guy, he came, I mean, the Lord
gave me a word of knowledge, and,
uh, I saw him in a, a playing.
He was in a baseball uniform, and he
was a small boy, maybe 10, and he was
in the outfield, and something happened.
And so when he came
I said, uh, "Did anything happen
to you when you were about 10?"
Oh, he asked me the-
He said, "Yeah."
He said, "I was, I was playing baseball."
He said, "I was in, in the outfield."
And he said, "I needed to go to the
bathroom, and I c- I couldn't wait."
He said, "I just soiled my
uniform and everything."
Mm.
Oh, no.
And said whenever I came in, they, they,
um, my dad just berated me, and all
this- Oh, no ⦠kind of stuff happened.
And his whole life was on that issue.
Yeah.
You know, there's no
way I would know that.
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
And, and there's no way anything like
that would come up in, in a conversation.
Right.
Yeah.
Who wants to tell that?
It- Yeah ⦠uh, just,
just the Lord, you know?
Yeah.
I'm, I'm ministering to a, a couple,
uh, and they had trouble in their
marriage, and they, uh, they wereâ¦
Anyway, we, we had talked about a
lot of different things, but the
Lord had given me a, a t- a name
whenever I was praying,
and, uh, before they came.
And, and, uh, so after a while I said,
"Do y'all, d- do y'all know a, a Brenda?"
Oh, when I said Brenda, it wentâ¦
I mean, they looked at each
other like, "Do we know Brenda?"
She had, that, that woman had
really damaged their marriage.
It wasn't a, a, an affair.
It was s- she was just
meddling in their business.
Mm.
Yeah.
You know?
And well, how would you know that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they, they certainly didn't tell it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But wow.
Had another, uh, guy that came.
He was a, uh, it was a, a older man.
And, uh, so the Lord had given me
a, a, a name of Patsy, and whenever
we were talking to him, I s-
after a while I asked him, I said,
uh, "Well, do you know a Patsy?"
He said, "That's why I'm here."
She's the problem.
Said, "That's, that, that's my daughter."
Oh.
Oh.
She's been a problem.
"And this is what happened to her."
Uh-huh.
And- Goodness ⦠I'm telling you,
it's like, Lord, I don't know.
I, you know.
He just needs somebody- Yeah ⦠to be
a willing vessel so that he can- Yeah.
Yeah.
And so- Wow ⦠uh- Make himself real
⦠I had a, a another woman I was, uh,
going to go pray for her, and I saw her
as a little girl, uh, about 10, maybe
8, and she was looking up like this.
And I'm like, what, what, what is that?
She was hearing something.
So whenever we got to minister to her,
I, I asked her, I said, "Did, did you
hear something when you were about 8?"
Oh my goodness.
She said, "Yes, my dad was
talking to a group of men and he
said, 'I wanted, I wanted a, a,
a perfect son, and I got this.'"
Oh.
Talking about her
And the hallmark of her life was
that she had spent every waking
moment trying to be perfect.
Perfectionism had absolutely
ruled, ruled her life.
Mm.
And it's all because of
that one conversation.
Yeah.
And Lord, there's no
way I could know that.
Mm-mm.
And so that, the word of knowledge is
such a precious gift, uh, especially
in a, in a ministry where you're gonna,
you know, minister to other people.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so, you know, we,
uh, people start calling and asking you
to m- to minister, and so I had a m-
a man call me and, uh, asked me if I
would minister to a, a man that he knew.
And, uh, I said, "Uh, sure.
I'd, I'd be, I'd be glad to."
And, uh, whenever I hung up, oh, I,
I tell you, I just, I just broke.
I just like, "Oh, God"
My thought process said, "Yeah.
Yeah, you called the right guy.
Yeah, I can do that.
Yeah, you, you, you, you made
a good choice to call me."
I'm like, "Oh, God.
Oh, God, forgive me.
Forgive me."
And I fell out in the floor on
my face and I said, "Oh, God.
I c- what am I doing?
I can't do anything."
Mm.
"I can't do this."
Yeah.
I called him back and I said,
"I'm, I'm sorry, I can't come."
I'm not, I'm not going under those
circumstances that I can do something.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, oh, I, I, I mean, it broke me.
I mean, that I would entertain any
kind of a thought like that after
watching the hand of God whenever I
had nothing to do with it except just-
Yeah ⦠you know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And so after I had repented sufficiently,
I, I called him back and I said,
"Well, I think I can do it now."
And so, um, we met at the
church, and Thomas actually
was, was it there on this one.
And, uh, when he, uh, the, the
young man and his mother came into
the church, he wouldn't look at me.
He, he wouldn't, he wouldn't
even look toward me.
And, um, uh, so the- there were--
we s- we sat down at a round table,
and I began to, to talk to him.
And, and I was going on the, what
the Lord had spoke to me at the, at
the beginning, out of the abundance
of the heart the mouth speaks.
So if I can get them talking and telling
me what's going on, I can find out
what's going on and what really- Right
what is in the heart.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm doing what I
call the interview process.
And so I'm talking, uh, to this
guy, and somewhere in the course of
the conversation, uh, he made some
kind of a statement and I said,
"Well, you've got a free will.
Uh, you, you can choose.
You can choose."
And I heard a, a growling
voice come out of him.
He said, "You don't understand."
I'm like, "Whoa, I'm not talking, I'm
not talking to the real person here."
Yeah.
And all at once he morphed.
I could actually see he morphed to me.
I could see another person-
Mm-hmm ⦠inside the person.
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
And I'm like, "Oh my goodness,
I'm talking to a demon."
Mm-hmm.
I'd been talking to a
demon for 30 minutes.
Yeah.
I had no knowledge.
I had no, I had no knowledge that
what I, that I was talking to a demon.
Mm-hmm.
It sounded like a g- a person.
Yeah.
And so I got up, I
walked around behind him
And I began to come afterâ¦
Ooh, Holy Spirit again.
I began to come after that thing.
You come out of there
in the name of Jesus.
He starts screaming.
Right.
He starts screaming.
I, I believe if you could've been a block
away, you could've heard him scream.
Wow.
And, uh, he starts going
down like this and screaming.
And oh, I mean, it was a battle.
And I, I remember at one point in
the process, I'm like, "You know,
I may not be able to do this."
Then I said, "No, it's not me."
Right.
Yeah.
"It's not me."
Right.
And so I kept going, commanding
that thing to come out.
His, his head gets all the way to
his knees, and he just goes limp.
And whenever that happens, I generally
know that the demon has left.
Mm-hmm.
And I said, "Do you want Jesus?"
"Yes, yes, I want Jesus."
"Lord Jesus, save me.
Yes."
Yeah.
And so he, he raises up, and
his mother comes around, and
she says, "Oh, my goodness.
His eyes have turned back blue.
They were black."
Wow.
Wow.
His eyes had gone black, and
now then his eyes are blue.
Oh, my.
Wow.
Isn't that right, Thomas?
That's right.
Wow.
And, uh- And then he
didn't know where he was
he didn't know where he was.
He said- Didn't know what had
happened ⦠10 out of 10.
And, uh- Wow ⦠so, yeah.
So those are kind of some of
the more notable deliverances.
Yeah.
Uh, but what, where are we on time?
Uh, let me g- I'll give you a couple of
other things that weren't deliverance
that I really enjoyed the Lord doing.
Uh, I've seen so many miracles,
but, but, uh, I was, uh, shopping in
Dillard's in Little Rock, and, uh, I was
looking to buy a pair, a pair of pants.
And there was a, a precious,
uh, Black girl there.
Uh, sh- she was h- waiting on
me, and, and the Lord said, "Uh,
I want you to speak to her."
And I said, "What, what
do you want me to say?"
I didn't get anything
She gives me a pair of pants, I go
try them on, and all the time I'm in
the dressing room, I'm like, "Lord,
what, what do you want me to say?
What do you want me to say?"
And, uh, so I come out and always have
to, uh, kinda, uh, showcase them to my
wife to make her approve them, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
You know, see if she likes it.
Well, and, and I, so we get another
pair, I go and, you know, I'm
in there again, I'm like, "Lord,
what, what do, what am I saying?
Nothing."
And, uh, s- I did that three times.
Third pair, I decided I'd buy those.
And every time I come out, I'm like,
"Lord, what do you want me to say?
I don't get anything."
So now then, I'm up and, you know,
they've got a top up here, and then
down below there's a place where
they do their business, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm standing there and I'm,
I'm crying out in the Spirit, "Lord,
what, what do you want me to say?"
Mm-hmm.
It's nearly over.
I'm gettingâ¦
Yeah, you fixed the lean.
Yeah, and, uh, so she rings it all
up, and I've given her my card,
and she's handing me the stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And I heard myself say, and I, I d- I d-
I'm telling you, I did not think this.
I said, "I see light in your eyes.
You must be a believer."
And when I said that, there was a
wind from behind me, started blowing,
and it went by me, and it hit her,
and boom, down she went- Oh, my gosh
on the other side over there.
It disappeared.
And, and I'm like, "What?
What ha- what happened?"
"What happened?"
Yeah.
And, and all at once she sprang up,
and she looked at me, and, uh, and
we were both like, we're stunned.
And, uh, sh- and she said, "Yes, I am."
"Yes, I am."
And she reached over and got a
card, had her name- Mm-hmm ⦠and
everything on it, and just poked
it at me like that, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And I just grabbed it and ran.
I justâ¦
I didn't run, but I, I was
like- Yeah, you're like, "All
right" ⦠"Well, I don't know."
And so, I- ⦠I g- uh, my wife had,
wasn't actually there at that time.
After I had selected the pants, she
started shopping somewhere else, you know?
Mm-hmm.
But, uh, on the way home, uh, I'm
like, I told her what happened,
and I'm like, "Well, I, I, I don't
think she knows what happened."
Mm-hmm.
"So I need to probablyâ¦
Well, I've got this card."
I had it in my pocket.
"I, I'll just write her
a, a letter- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ⦠and explain
to her what happened."
So, when I get home, I get on my computer,
and I, I type it all up, and I, I,
I go in detail what I just told you.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, so I send it to the
address that was on her card.
And so, uh, the next time I was in Little
Rock, my wife was going for treatment.
She had breast cancer, and we
had gone, was going to Little
Rock quite often- Mm-hmm
for that.
And, and so I, I'm, I go back and
I'm looking for her, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And when I walked up to the place
where I had met her before, she
was waiting on another person.
I don't know really what happened, but
the person who was being waited on,
boom, she, something happened to her.
Mm-hmm.
I, uh, but she looked at me
like, "What is happening?"
Iâ¦
She's like, "You got a quick moment here."
But she didn't say anything.
Yeah.
And she left, you know?
And so I'm talking to, to this
woman, and she said, "Oh, come here.
Come, come with me."
Said, "I, I gotta talk to you."
And so she took me back
in the storage area.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, wow.
She didn't even wanna talk to
me- She said, "Oh, listen."
She said, "Your letter," said,
"Your letter didn't come to me.
It went to my boss."
He said, "The manager
of all of Dillard's."
Oh.
Oh, no.
It went to all of Dillard's,
and he opened it and he read it.
Gosh.
That, and everybody in
Dillard's knew about it.
Wow.
He, he s- he told it to every employee-
Wow ⦠what, what had happened.
Wow.
And she said, "Iâ¦
When he came down here with that
letter, I thought that I was
gonna be fired for something.
I didn't know what."
Mm-hmm.
And he's, and he's telling
me, "Look at this."
Said, "How'd this happen?"
Mm-hmm.
And so she had to tell
her side of it, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And so, uh, she said, "I, I called
my s- my son in Kentucky, and
his whole family were impacted."
Uh, it, it just went everywhere.
Wow.
And I, I, I don't know.
There's something about if you'll
just be, if you'll just obey.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lord, I'llâ¦
Okay, what do you want me to say?
I'll do it.
Mm-hmm.
Now, I could've said, "No,
I'm not gonna do that."
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
But I just kept saying, "No, Lord,
what, what is it you want me to say?"
Yeah.
And what, and I'm telling you what.
It's at, at the right moment,
bam, and the wind blowing.
I'veâ¦
Has anybody ever had that
except in the other room?
I don't know.
Nah, not me.
I, you, you know what I'm saying?
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm like, "Lord,
you can do anything."
Mm-hmm.
There, there's nothing that you cannot do.
So then- I'm, I'm at my home and the Lord
says, "I want you to send her $204.36."
I'm like- That's specific.
So, I always check with my
wife on stuff like that.
She said, "Well, if the Lord said
do it, well, you know, do that."
Mm-hmm.
So I, I sent it.
Well, the next time I go, she said,
"You are not gonna believe it."
I had a bill for that exact amount.
Wow.
Isn't God good?
He is so good.
Oh, my goodness.
He is so good.
He's so good, and, and, uh, I just--
Whenever He speaks, just do what He says.
Mm-hmm.
I, I think- Yeah ⦠you know, that's
what, that's what Mary told the, at the
wedding, says, "Whatever He says, do it."
Yeah.
You know?
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, I, I tell you, that
is good advice right there.
Yeah.
And so, I don't know, that, uh, um,
was just a powerful, uh, I don't know.
It was, it was a testimony to
them, but it was a testimony to me.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Uh, to me.
And, uh, so, um, I'll just tell you maybe
one other thing, and maybe we're running
a little out of time here, but, uh, and,
uh, we, we, uh, moved from a larger house
in town to a s- smaller place, a condo.
It was out by the country club.
And, and, uh, there was a screen
on the garage that it was torn, and
so I took it to have it repaired.
Mm-hmm.
And so I, uh, I went into the screen
shop, and so I'm talking to the woman
there, and the woman stutters so
much that I could hardly understand
what she was trying to say to me.
Mm-hmm.
She was just, I mean,
really, a, a- Bad stuttering.
Yeah.
And we, we worked through leaving the
screen, how much it cost, and when I
could pick it up, and all that kind
of stuff, phone numbers and stuff.
And after I f- we finished all
the business, I, I asked her,
I said, I said, uh, "What-- I,
I see you, that you stutter."
Mm-hmm.
I said, "How, how long
has that been going on?"
She said, "My entire life, 56 years."
Wow.
I said, "Really?"
I said, "Well, could I
pray for you about that?"
She said, "Yeah."
So I walked around the, the desk down be-
behind her, and I started praying for her.
Bam, no more stuttering.
Wow.
No more stuttering.
That was the end of it.
Wow.
Was she a believer or just-
Uh, yeah, she was then.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean- She wasn't
before, she was after.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh,
I mean, just 56 years of torment.
And, uh, when I got in my
car, I, I just began to weep.
I'm like, "Oh God, I'm thankful for what
you did," but what I was convicted of
is how many people have I passed that I
could've seen the same type of thing if
I would've only stood, stepped forward
and said- Yeah ⦠"Can I pray for you?"
Mm-hmm.
I- if I-- how many have I passed?
Yeah.
And, and I was, I was so burdened
by the fact that I, I didn't know of
any specifically, but how many times
have I seen somebody in a wheelchair
at Walmart or wherever, and I, I
don't take the time to say, "How,
how long has this been going on?"
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
"How-- Could I pray for you?"
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I, I don't know.
I don't-- I think that we could, we would
see, I'm just saying for me, I, I think
I could see a lot more if I just- Take
time to- What we have is- It's incredible
⦠it's more than silver and gold, you know?
Oh, absolutely.
We just need to share it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'd, I'd entertain
any questions you have.
I mean, how, what's yourâ¦
Well, how do you prepare for
these types of encounters?
Like, I know you spend a lot
of time in prayer, obviously.
Yeah, yeah.
Is there, like, do you, does God
t- tell you to fast certain times?
Like, I'm just wondering- Well,
that- ⦠how do you prepare for this?
⦠that's an interesting point right there,
and I know that whenever Jesus cast
the demon out of the epileptic boy,
and the disciples ask about it- Yeah,
that's what I was thinking of, like-
he said, "Uh, this kind come
out only by prayer and fasting."
Now, I don't know.
I've heard a lot of teaching on that,
and I'm not, I'm not sure that, uh, the
deliverance is what he was talking about.
I think it's the, the doubt and unbelief
comes out by prayer and fasting.
Okay.
It, it co- That's, uh,
yeah, that's interesting.
You see what I'm saying?
That is interesting.
I think, I think he had really talking
about- Them ⦠this, this kind,
uh, uh, so the- Like- Okay, like
the, I was awakened at midnight to
go to the first one that I went to.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't have time to do either one.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And, and then, uh, the, the one that,
uh, I talked about with Thomas, I
didn't, I didn't fast or pray on that.
Uh, I, I prayed.
I was praying, but I, I don't know.
I'm just saying what, what the enemy will
do, he's the accuser of the brethren.
He will accuse you.
You're not ready.
You're not ready.
You don't, you, you didn't fast enough.
You're not qualified.
You, you, you didn't qualify.
You're not qualified.
You, you didn't pray enough.
You won't be able to do this.
Mm-hmm.
You, you, you know what you've done.
You, you know, you know what you thought.
You know, Iâ¦
One of theâ¦
Let me tell you this story.
Maybe that'll help a little bit.
I had a guy from Second
Baptist here in town.
He, he called me at 5:00 in the morning
And he asked me if I'd
come over to his house.
There was a woman over there
that she had a demonic spirit.
And so I got over there to his house.
We started fighting that thing.
And, uh, we, we moved from
his house to the church.
And we, we es- essentially went
from 5:00 in the morning till 8:00
that night fighting this thing.
Mm.
We went almost- That's a long day.
And my dean, he took my classes at Tech.
I called him, and he took my classes.
And so anyway, um, we're in
that, we're in the battle.
And in the midst of the battle, this
demon speaks out to, to my friend, and he
says, "You don't have authority over me.
You've got a Holiday Inn
towel in your closet."
And I'm like, "Oh, God."
Ah.
Oh, boy.
Oh.
I'm like, uh, uh, I'm like, I, I wasn't
concerned about the Holiday Inn towel.
I was, I was concerned about
what he's gonna say about me.
You know?
I'm like, oh
my goodness, what, what,
what's he gonna say about me?
Yeah.
And so he said, "I do
He, and then he said that, "My
sin is none of your business.
I'll, I'll take that holiday, I
don't know where I got it and when
I got it, but I'll take it back,
but my sin's none of your business."
Yeah.
I said, "Praise God.
Praise God my sin's
none of your business."
Wow, that's a good answer.
Yeah.
It really is.
My sin is, my sin is
none of your business.
That's between me and God.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I tell you that, every t- the
accuser of the brethren, he will come,
he will tell you that you can't do this.
Mm-hmm.
And he'll tell you about what you've
done, what you've done wrong- Yeah
what you've thought, and
all that kind of stuff.
And that has resonated me, "Devil,
my sin is none of your business.
It's none of your business."
That's a great answer-
Yeah ⦠to the harassment.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And so I, I just, uh, I go on.
I, um, before I go into a ministry,
I put on the armor of God.
Mm-hmm.
And I do that in the very
presence of the person.
The he- I always start at the top.
I, I dress from the head down.
I put on the helmet of salvation, and I'm
always so thankful that God called me and
wrote my name in the Lamb's book of life.
And then I put on the breastplate
of righteousness, and I thank
you, Lord, that I, I don't have to
stand here in my own righteousness.
Mm-hmm.
I stand in, clothed in your righteousness.
And then my loins are gird with truth.
Your word is true, and I'm
here only because of your word.
Your, your word is true.
Mm-hmm.
And I can do what it says I can do.
Yeah.
And so I'm doing this
because you said I could.
Yeah.
Yeah
Yeah.
That's, that's the tr- my, my
loins are girded with truth, and
then my feet are shod with the
preparation of the gospel of peace.
I'm not here to condemn, judge anybody.
I'm here to set a person get free.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and so I'm not here
to judge you in any way.
Yeah.
I don't, I don't care what you've done.
Mm-hmm.
And I've had people
that have killed people.
I've had people that, oh, well,
I'm not gonna go into those
things, but I've had every kind of
thing you could possibly imagine.
Mm-hmm.
But I'm not, I'm not here to judge you.
Mm-mm.
And I'm, I'm like, I always tell
people, uh, that Ken and I are a
couple of beggars that found bread.
We don't have bread.
Well, you know, who does?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And we, we are, we're priests.
A priest is a go-between.
Mm-hmm.
They, they, they get the hand of the
need, and then they reach up and get
the hand of, of God- Mm-hmm ⦠and they
bring the need, the supply to the need.
Mm-hmm.
That's what a priest is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's what we are.
And so I'm not in the business of
trying to judge this situation.
I'm in the business of trying to get
the need, need met by the power of God.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And it's, it's, uh, real simple that
way, 'cause I don't, I'm not in it.
I'm, I'm just the go-between.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, so we, we, uh, I forgot
what t- story I was telling there,
but, but, uh, we've had, oh, so
many people, so many people through
the years that have been set free.
Did that man finally get
delivered, or the woman?
Which one?
Uh- The one that you spent
from 5:00 AM- Oh, okay.
Yeah The second time ⦠oh, got it.
I, I- Yeah ⦠didn't finish that story.
Yes, uh, we, well, I, that was
early on in my, in my, my journey.
Uh, but it come by to find out it
was a lying spirit, and it would
lie about ev- I mean, it would
take you around the mulberry bush.
I've dealt with one of those.
And, uh, some, uh, pastor in Knoxville,
somebody called and, uh, got him to come.
He came, and in 30 minutes it was over.
Mm-mm.
Wow.
And, uh, it's because he recognized that,
that it was a lying spirit- Mm-hmm ⦠and
we didn't have to put up with that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, but, see, we were saying, well,
okay, it, the, this spirit's saying this.
Well, then we'd chase that.
Then we'd have to chase this.
Then we'd have to chaseâ¦
Well, we did that for
about 12 hours- Yeah.
Wow ⦠or more.
And, uh, so
The thing about, uh, all this
process, I learn something every
single time that I minister.
Yeah.
Every time.
And so you can't go in thinking
you know how to do it- Mm-hmm
'cause you don't.
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
You, you're getting see, you're
getting ready to see something
you've never seen before.
Yeah.
And so, um, there's just lots of things.
So other questions you have?
Just like how many years have you
said you've had this ministry?
Oh
I was saved in 1975,
so that's 25, 51 years.
Um, I, I would say I started pretty
close, maybe the first two or three years.
I mean, the Lord started me
on a journey immediately.
I mean, uh- Wow.
I did, I just-- My feet
just barely hit the ground.
You're a willing vessel, though.
Yeah.
And said, "Watch this."
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, just, uhâ¦
Oh.
You know, He, He changed me from
the top of my head to the sole
of my feet, everything about me.
There was nothing-- I mean,
I've-- Oh, there's so many
miracles, so many miracles.
I mean, um, but, um, you know, Iâ¦
Some of them I don't, I don't understand.
I don't understand them.
Um, I had a, I had a call one day.
I was sitting at my, my desk at Tech,
and this phone call came and said, "Dr.
Arberry, Dr.
Arberry, this is so-and-so."
I'm like, "Uh, I don't know."
You know?
Yeah.
He said, "You, you, you remember me?
I, I, I used to be at the BSU.
I used to beâ¦"
And then I said, "Oh, yeah."
I, I didn't remember.
"Oh, oh, oh."
He said.
Oh, okay.
"Oh, okay.
Okay."
Yeah.
All right.
He said, uh, uh, like,
"Listen, I, I'm in Austin."
And he said, uh, uh, Austin, Texas.
He said, "I'm, I'mâ¦
I, I need $75.
I, I need you to wire me $75."
And I'm like, "Wellâ¦"
"Wellâ¦"
I said, uh, I told him, I said, "Well,
listen, I, I, I'm not gonna do something
like that unless I talk to my wife."
I said, "We, we are always in
agreement on stuff that we're doing."
And I said, "I, I, I'll, I'll, I'll
see if I, if I can, if that'd be okay."
And so I hung up.
So I called her and she said,
"Well, uh, it sounds okay to me."
And so I said, "Lordâ¦"
Uh, before I called her, I
said, "Lord, is this whatâ¦
Is thisâ¦"
I, uh, I heard a scripture, "He that
gives to the poor lendeth unto the Lord."
Mm-hmm.
And I said- Yeah.
So I said, "Lord, do you
want me to loan you $75?"
I said,
"That's what the scripture says."
Yeah.
Yeah.
I said, "Oh, Lord, do you
want me to loan you $75?"
And so He said, "Yes."
And so I, I called my
wife and she said, "Okay.
The Lord said yes, okay, let's do it."
So it was Sunrise Hotel out here.
I had a, a Western Union.
So on my way out there, I'm thinking
Well, if I send him $75, he'll
probably think, "Well, he probably
didn't want to, but he did it anyway."
But so I think, I think what I'll do
is I'll send him more than he asked
for, and that way he'll know that I
didn't care, I didn't mind doing it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know?
And then, of course, I
had to pay to, to send it.
Mm-hmm.
And so I don't know what I ended
up sending, but anyway, I sent
it And then I'm driving, I'm
over there actually at McDonald's
where, in that area right there.
Mm-hmm.
I was driving in my car, and
Lord said, "I owe you the 75."
He said, "I owe you the 75."
But he said, "Because you gave that
other," he said, "I'm free now to
bless you as much as I want to."
Wow.
I, I don't know, I don't
know how that works.
I really don't.
Mm-hmm.
I've thought about that a lot of times.
I, I don't know how- It's like
offering- I don't know how
that- Yeah, above and beyond
how that re- I don't know how, I
don't know how it frees him to do it.
You see what I'm saying?
Yeah.
It was like I, I freed him to
do that, and I'm like, "What?"
Well, it's because, I, I
mean, I don't know anything.
Yeah.
But I would think you
were obedient in the 75.
Right.
You went ab- you went beyond-
Right ⦠the obedience.
Right.
And, like, your question to him was
not, "Do you want me to give you?"
You said, "Loan you."
Yeah, right.
And so he's like, "Yes, I do."
And that, that is a contractual-
Right ⦠transaction, right?
Right.
You're loaning me, I'll pay it back.
But you went beyond that.
Right.
So now I, I owe you 75.
Yeah, I can go beyond.
Yeah.
But, uh, you've opened the door
for me to do anything I want.
Exactly.
'Cause you did anything you wanted.
Yeah.
Like, you went above and
beyond what I asked for.
And, and he's done that.
So I'll get to do that back to you.
Yeah, he's done that.
Well, that's good.
So, uh, so anyway, that's,
uh, yeah, that's good.
I'm glad you cleared that up.
I mean, I don't know if I know anything,
but it seems like it made sense to me.
Uh, huh.
Yeah.
Okay.
I just have a lot of questions.
I mean, and I don't even know if
we have time to talk about it.
Uh-huh.
But when Thomas was here, um,
previously, he talked about the house.
You know, you said, "I
want to have, uh, Dr.
Arterberry come and talk aboutâ¦"
I don't even remember what it was,
'cause we, your episode hasn't aired,
so I haven't listened to it since then.
But you drew a house, and you were
like- Oh, yeah ⦠the different-
Yeah ⦠levels of a house and- Yes.
Yeah, the, the four
floor- ⦠like the generations.
The, the, the- The what?
the four floors of the house that
you use- Oh ⦠in your ministry.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, I, I know this is a little
controversial, and I've heard a lot of
people throw rocks at this, but I've
seen it demonstrated so many times.
But, uh, generational sins
and generational curses,
uh, I, I've seen it happen.
I've, I've watched it in my own life.
Uh, I know the things that I
deal with, my father dealt with-
Mm-hmm ⦠uh, and his father dealt
with, and his father dealt with.
And- Yeah ⦠and some people
say that that's more genetic,
but I don't think it is genetic.
I think it's a spiritual transfer,
and I think it's, uh, the sins
of the fathers are visited to
the third and fourth generation.
And, and- Because those
spirits are hanging out.
Yeah, they're hanging out.
Yeah.
And, and so- Whenever I, uh, the
thing that, uh, the, the way I
start is I draw a, a rectangle.
And, uh, so what I, what I always
say to everyb- person that I'm
ministering to, what we want to
determine first of all, we're gonna
say that this is a piece of property,
and we're gonna let it represent you.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, so what I wanna know
is who owns the property.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Now, uh, there's only two owners.
It's either Jesus or Satan.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Okay.
So whenever I'm talking to a person
and getting ready to minister to them,
I wanna know who owns this property.
Yeah.
And if they give testimony
that they're a believer and
that Jesus is Lord, then okay.
That's, that's it.
But if they don't, then I'm gonna
present the gospel right there.
That, and I have led people- Mm-hmm
⦠to the Lord whenever they said,
"Well, I believe I belong to Satan."
Okay.
There's where I'm gonna
present the gospel.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I'm not gonna do any kind of,
uh, prayer of- Yeah ⦠against
strongholds or whatever.
Because the most important
prayer is that of salvation.
I'm just gonna give them the gospel.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now then, if they say that
they are a believer Then what I'm
gonna say is, here's what we know.
You're not your own, you've
been bought with a price.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So this property, uh, you, you don't
belong to your husband, you don't belong
to your wife, you don't belong to your
children, you don't belong to your pastor.
If you have been purchased by the blood
of the Lamb, you belong to Jesus Christ.
He bought you.
He bought you.
He paid for you.
It's a legal transaction.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
A legal tr- He, you may have, you may
have experienced some emotion, like I did,
but it's actually a legal transaction.
Right.
It's entering into a covenant- Right
is what you've done.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, if you've given your life, he's
given his life, an exchanged life, and
so what I wanna know is who owns it.
Now, if they have given testimony,
now what I wanna find out next is,
is there something on the property
that doesn't need to be there?
Now, the Bible refers
to these as strongholds.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, oh, there's, I've, I've,
I've got a list in my Bible, uh,
of about, oh, 150 strongholds that-
Goodness ⦠you know, you could have.
Mm-hmm.
And so they, they colonize.
They'llâ¦
If you have depression, then you'll have
despair, loneliness, suicide, death.
Yeah.
They'll all go together.
They'll all gang up together.
I like that- Yeah ⦠terminology,
that they colonize.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They colonize.
Mm-hmm.
And so if one comes in,
others will fall in.
Mm-hmm.
Same, same route, and they, they'll,
uh, so- You have squatters there.
Yeah.
So what, what I try to determine,
what I try to determine is,
okay, the, the devil's outside
the s- the rectangle, okay?
Now, what we know about the
devil is that he has no power.
The Bible clearly says that Jesus
has defeated him in the pit of hell.
He stripped him of all power.
He made an open show of him, and he
triumphed over him in the victory.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So the enemy cannot break in on you.
Right.
He c- he cannot break in,
but he can walk in- Right
through an open door.
Right.
So what I've, what I wanna d- what
I wanna find out in ministering to
you is what is on the property, okay?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
We wanna identify what's on the
property that shouldn't be there,
and then I want to find out what
door the enemy came through.
Yeah.
What, how did he get in here?
Right.
Okay?
Okay, now what we're gonna do, I have the
authority- To, to expel, to cast him out.
Yeah.
Right.
But then you gotta close the door.
Yeah.
Then we're gonna close the door.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
We're gonna cast him out, and we're
gonna close the door, and we're gonna,
we're gonna sanctify the property,
and you're gonna be whole and health-
healthy and without strongholds.
Right.
That's what we're gonna do.
Is that okay with you?
Mm-hmm.
Yes, it's good- Yeah ⦠with me.
So, well, but then I say, "Now, here's,
here's another p- point, though.
Um, maybe you didn't open a door.
Maybe, maybe you didn't,
uh, invite the enemy in.
Maybe you didn't do that.
Maybe it happened upstairs.
Maybe, maybe in the four-story
building that you live in, maybe
it came down the staircase."
Yeah.
"It didn't come through an outside door."
Wow, that's good.
"It came through the, down
the staircase to you."
Gotcha.
And so now then, what you're dealing
with is something you didn't do.
It's what your mom and dad did.
Yeah.
It's what your grandparents did.
It's what your great-grandparents did.
Yeah.
And I, I can't tell you how
many times I said, "Okay nowâ¦"
And where I, where I start with
this, it-- We got time for this?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Where, where I start with
this is I, I will say, "Do you
have any brothers or sisters?"
Okay, yeah.
"Do they have any
similar to that problem?"
Okay.
If they do, it's like, okay, it's
a, it's a, it's a- It's a familial
thing ⦠it's, it's a familial spirit.
It's a- Yeah, yeah ⦠okay.
Uh, then another clue is, "When
did you first notice this?"
"Oh, ever since I was a little kid."
Okay.
You didn't open the door
whenever you were six.
You were little.
Yeah.
No, you didn't open the door there.
Right.
It, it came down through the
stair- So I start asking those
type questions to identify where,
where did this thing get in?
Mm-hmm.
Okay?
And so, uh, we, uh, just interviewed
and they said, "Well, oh, well,
they s- they s- I don't, I
didn't know my great-granddad.
They said he was a warlock."
Really?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Brings in a lot of things.
I, I- Yeah ⦠I don't
know- How about that?
⦠I don't know my grandmother, but
they said that she had more h- more
men than, than, uh, you could count.
Yeah.
Uh, she was very promiscuous and
oh-- And I'm like, "Well, duh."
Yeah.
That's what, uh- Yeah ⦠okay.
So we, we've got- Yeah ⦠a
generational, uh, issue here.
Right.
And so, um, whenever we, uh, put
the armor on and then when we start
into the, to the actual battleâ¦
Now let me, let me s- just mention this
Laying on of hands is
not a symbolic thing.
Uh, we had a, a man recently, we asked
him if we could lay hands on him.
He was-- he had the worst, uh,
stronghold of pornography I,
I believe I've ever heard of.
And, uh, so we asked him if
we could lay hands on him,
and he, he gave us permission.
We always ask.
Yeah.
Some people say, "No, I
don't want you touching me."
Yeah.
Okay.
So but anyway, he said okay.
We lay hands on him, and the demon
started screaming, "Get your hands off me.
Get-- Don't you touch.
Get, yeah."
I'm like, "Wow."
Mm.
Laying on of hands is not symbolic.
Not, yeah.
There is a- It's
powerful ⦠there is power.
Ooh, Holy Spirit.
There's power being released.
There's power being released.
And, uh, so anyway, this guy, he got free.
He got free of it.
But, but we always ask if we can,
we can do that, but I forgot where I
was going with that testimony, butâ¦
I mean, I, I mean, that's-- I feel
like somebody needs to hear that.
You know, like, you have, if you
are a Christian, you have that
authority to pray for somebody,
especially people in your family.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Like- Um, I mean- And when
it's open when you're a little
kid, I mean, little kids can't.
Yeah.
Right.
A, a lot of them can't.
I mean, I'm sure there are some that
can, but, um, they don't ha- they
don't know to- We had a- ⦠to take
authority over a demonic spirit.
We had a woman, I had a couple.
They c- they called me, and they wanted
to know if we'd minister to their son.
He was, like, uh, four, I guess, maybe
five, and said he had been biting.
He w- if he gets around
kids, he bites them.
He bites any, all kids.
They can't keep him, they can't let him
be around any other kid 'cause he'll bite.
And they'd had him to psychologists in
Little Rock, and, and a psychologist
in Little Rock said he believed
that the boy had a demonic spirit,
and he need, they need to find
somebody that could deal with that.
So, so they- Boy ⦠so they called
me and, and I'm like, "Well, thanks."
But, uh, so we went up, went to
their house, and, um, we, we just
don't like to minister to kids.
It's kinda like, do they understand?
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So what we've done is that, uh,
we, we will anoint handkerchiefs.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, so anyway, we met with this
couple, and I, I told them, I said,
"What we'd like to do is we'd like to
pray over a handkerchief and let you put
that in your, your son's, uh, pillow."
Mm-hmm.
"Let him sleep on that,
and let's watch God."
And so they agreed, and so, uh, we
anointed it and laid hands on it,
prayed, came against that spirit.
And, uh, so they put it in the child's,
uh, pillow, and the next day, the,
the wife, the mother, she called me.
She said, "What?
What is going on?"
I said, "I don't know.
What?"
She said, "We put that
in our son's pillow."
And said, "We went to bed."
And said, "Shortly after we went
to bed, he comes in and he throws
the pillow into the bedroom,
says, 'I'm not sleeping on this.'"
Mm.
And we're like, "Oh, boy."
So, said we put him back in
bed, and after he g- went to
sleep, we took it back in there.
Second next morning we go in, he's
on the opposite end of the bed away
from the pill as far as he can be.
Wow.
That reminds me of what Denise said when
she and Randy prayed for Pastor Chris.
Yeah.
And they anointed some,
put it in his pillow.
Yeah.
And when they'd wake up,
he was like a teenager.
And when they'd wake up,
he'd be asleep on the couch.
Oh, yeah.
And he's like, nope.
He was like, "Mm-mm."
Uh, nope.
And they moved shortly after that,
moved to, uh, Green Bay, Wisconsin,
and she c- sent me a letter.
She's saying her son was totally
free- Wow ⦠from that thing.
Yeah.
And so we've, we, I don't know, we've
sent, we've sent, uh, handkerchiefs.
We've sent them to Australia.
We've sent themâ¦
We're, we'reâ¦
If you can't get to them-
Mm ⦠it's what we used to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's very- So.
That's a good, good thing to do.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Um, well, I feel like we need to, like,
book you for another time because- I know.
I really, really wanna know- I know
⦠more about this, the strongholds and,
like, how we, the colonies and stuff.
I feel like there's tons
of questions that I have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I'm also like, "Wellâ¦"
Okay.
Yeah.
Uh, but yeah, I would love to.
And this, this was a, I mean,
really informative and just really
challenging because especially
the part where you said, "How
many people have you walked by?"
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And notâ¦
And that's really, like,
brought conviction to my
heart 'cause I was like- Yeah
yeah, how many have I?
'Cause I, sometimes I don't view myself
as any, anybody that could do anything.
Yeah.
But it's not me.
Yeah.
Right.
So.
But yeah, that's, that's a
very good challenge, I think,
for everybody who's listening.
Like, you have the most
powerful- You have authority.
Yeah ⦠being in you
if you've accepted him.
Right.
That's who you share, you know?
Yeah.
Thank you.
It's not you, it's, it's him.
I always view myself- So ⦠as
a, as a glove with his hand in it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good picture.
That's a very good picture, but-
I'm- ⦠thank you so much ⦠I like it
And I, yeah, I want to, I want to book
you again so- Yeah ⦠soon so we canâ¦
And you, Thomas, you didn't say very much.
I know.
Well, this is- Do you have anything you-
Yeah, but I can make a quick addendum.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
You know, um, Travis and I are
in legacy season of our lives.
Mm-hmm.
He's a little ahead of me.
He's- We don't talk
about age on the podcast.
We don't, yeah.
It's ruled for our podcast.
All of your life, you might have, you
probably, you might have four or five
people who have really marked your
life in- Mm-hmm ⦠profound ways.
Itâ¦
This is one of my- Mm-hmm ⦠five, what
I consider- Yeah ⦠my five greatest
influences in my life, you know,
because, uh, my life changed when, this
was way back in 2014, when he invited
me to come into one of his sessions.
That changed my life.
But anyway, uh, so legacy is to
convey to the upcoming generation.
So one of the thing, three
years ago We recorded Dr.
Travis six hours of recording, and
as you would expect from him, uh,
I don't know what we call this.
I, I hesitate to call it a method.
It's more than, it's more
than, it's more than six hours.
Well, no.
It was about six.
There's six hours
of video.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So Dr.
Travis hasâ¦
And so, uh, you know, part of my gifting
is publishing and editing- Mm-hmm ⦠and
all this kind of stuff like that.
Mm-hmm.
And so I have, uh, published his
materials that he uses- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ⦠both in what he does when he
ministers to people, but also it's, uh,
it, it's also can be used to, to, for
others to learn how he, how this- Yeah
works.
Okay.
And so I have a website, and I, I
put a whole page dedicated to Dr.
Travis on my personal legacy website.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And so there's six hours of,
of, that we've recorded of
video, and then all of Dr.
Travis'- I'm going to listen to it.
⦠materials.
Yeah.
Let us, let us know what that
is, and we'll link it- Yeah
in the show description.
Well, I think I wrote his
website down last time.
Yeah, so it's thomasthale.com.
Okay.
In your episode it'll be linked
in there, but we'll do it again.
And then it's under the library
tab, and then it's a page that
is dedicated- Okay ⦠to Dr.
Travis.
Yeah.
Okay.
And all because I, I want the world, and
I'm always, I'm on him about this a lot.
Sure.
He needs to write a book,
and I'm gonna say it again.
Uh- I'm surprised you haven't ⦠he
needs to write a book.
Yeah, you need to.
I agree.
And, uh, so I'm trying
to help him to do that.
I, I genuinely, like, I can
understand the, um, the thought
that, like, it's not you.
So you don't wanna write a book.
Yeah.
You don't wanna bring any, any,
you know, attention to you.
Right.
But I do think that it's important for,
like Thomas is saying, future generations
to be able to look back and say,
"Okay, this is, God's been doing this."
Yeah.
"This is not new for God.
He's always been handling this.
He's always been available."
Absolutely.
"And here's how they did this."
Yeah.
So, I mean, you know, the, part of
the reason that we even started this
podcast, and, you know, Kerrye and
I talked about how important it was
for us to be able to capture the
testimony of the older generation- Mm
so that we don't lose those
stories, we don't lose that legacy
and the history of what God has
been doing through all of time.
Right.
Yeah.
You know?
And we want our kids, and I'm a grandma.
Yeah.
I want my grandkids to know,
you know- Mm-hmm ⦠what, who
God is because I just want that.
Like, I want- Right.
I wantâ¦
And hearing- Yeah ⦠people's
testimonies in, for different
chapters is just faith building.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just so faith building to me.
Yeah.
Like- So encouraging.
Yeah, it is.
Well, thank y'all so much, and
I do want to- Thanks for asking.
Before you leave here today, we're gonna
get another date, but- Yep ⦠thank you.
It was great, and can't
wait to, to hear more.
So.
Yeah.
I agree.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Bye.