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Do Good Work is not a label but a way of living.
It is the constant and diligent effort to achieve a new level of excellence in one’s own life.
It is the hidden inner beauty behind the struggle to achieve excellence.
It is not perfect but imperfect.
It is the effort, discipline and focus that often goes unnoticed.
The goal of this podcast is to highlight that drive.
The guests I have on this show emulate this drive in their own special way. You’ll be able to apply new ideas into your own life by learning from them.
We will also have 1on1 episodes with me where we’ll dive into my own experiences with entrepreneurship and leadership.
Every episode is designed to provide you with ideas that you can apply and grow in excellence in all areas of your life, business and career.
Do Good Work,
Raul
INTRO
PODCAST
Raul: Welcome back to the podcast.
Today I am talking to Robert Mangold.
Robert is the head of partnerships
at Proof Positioning, and he's on
a mission to make solid primary
research available to small business
owners who are looking to maximize
their value to the marketplace.
Robert, welcome to the pod.
Robert Manigold: Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Raul: So we, we chatted before this
and we were discussing an interesting
AI report around how your clients can
have more effective conversations.
So how pretty much anyone who
runs a service-based agency,
Robert Manigold: Yeah.
Raul: anyone at this point, if
you're working with clients, you're
talking about ai, what are the most
effective conversations to have?
Because here's the thing
that I found when you say ai.
When I say ai, when my PhD friend
who learned from the Nobel Prize
winner about AI on ai, when we say
the word, it's completely different.
We mean different things, and
that's the interesting thing about
something that's so ubiquitous, but
yet something so easily accessible.
So, Robert, could you dive in, tell us a
little bit more about what you found in
the report and some interesting nuances
that you think would be a good call out.
Robert Manigold: Yeah, since
we, we primarily partner with
agencies and consultants across
the US and internationally.
We, we saw an opportunity to uncover
some uncertainty or really to remove
uncertainty from the, the equation
around conversations around ai.
We that people, like our agency partners
didn't know how to talk about it.
what do the clients really care about it?
So we went in and we did we,
we did an extensive study.
On it was, and it was focused on
enterprise, but there were, there
are absolute nuggets in there that
are applicable across the spectrum.
We focused on enterprise because they
were, there were the large breadth.
And, and, and, and they have, you
know, like a lot of people wear less
hats than they do in small business.
And so we can isolate understandings
from like, you know, departments.
And we really found that there are
some, there are some key opportunities.
For agencies right now to differentiate
themselves because we're still, er
Well, I mean, it feels like we're a
few years in, we're still pretty early.
Our, our, our insights
uncover the fact that,
Raul: Mm.
Robert Manigold: Executive leadership
teams are owning AI policy right now.
So whether that translates into
small business, you know, like
owners, but they're owning it.
When, when these kind, when these when
the subject matter or anything like
this gets mature, it will typically,
probably ultimately either be owned by
it or legal or a combination of both.
Ultimately, you know, it
informed by legal and I.
And so we see an opportunity right now.
So especially in early conversations, and
I don't want to jump to some of the end
of it, but there were some things that we
found, we found this really interesting
opportunity early on in a conversation to
have to, to have a, to have an opportunity
for a great question that uncovers
the, the uncovers where folks are at.
And, and it was like, how eager you are.
How eager are you to adopt
AI in your organization?
Where are you at with ai, you know,
conversationally that that's, that
their answers separate them in, into
one of kind of like two buckets that we
found if they're really on fire, like,
Hey, we're gonna do this yesterday.
We're on, like, they're very forward
thinking, very technologically.
Sound, they their focus is on
implementation guidance, you know,
like getting at, getting to speed.
Like they're really wanting to capture
as much of the market as possible.
And this is, you know, on the client
side and, and when the other bucket is
when you know, a client or prospect or
a current client says, I don't know.
We're not really, we're kind of just
putting dipping toes in the water.
That gives you an opportunity to
introduce a, a, a great leadership to
that conversation because you can help
them understand the step-by-step process.
And that coupled with the most,
if you, if you if you look at our
report, if you reach out, you, you
can reach out to me and I'll leave,
have contact de details later.
But I'm, I'm gonna kind of give a
little bit of the answers to the test.
So ultimately.
What people want is transparency,
Raul: Hmm.
Robert Manigold: that conversation
with this audience of folks that are
maybe a little bit slower to adopt.
transparency builds what
we call trust units.
Like, you know, trust isn't
just this one big binary thing.
It's like brick by brick.
You build up trust units and you have a
really good opportunity to to effectively
position yourself, you know, you're,
whether you're, you know, an agency or a
consultant as as a leader to help them.
Uncover the best ways to utilize
AI to maximize, you know, their,
the business opportunities that
this client or prospect has.
And it's really interesting.
So early on, that's the first
question you should ask.
How
Raul: The transparency piece right.
Robert Manigold: Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, and then real, ultimately,
what they want to know, and this is
again, given the answers, they really
wanna know when you're using it.
It should be a topic of conversation.
Shouldn't, like, not, not
like all filled with legalese.
We didn't feel like that.
'Cause that's not who owns
it right now, it isn't legal.
That needs to see, you know,
every I, you know, dotted
Raul: It's practical,
practical application, right?
Robert Manigold: tactical for, for, for
natural language transparent conversation.
This is when we're going to use ai.
We'll you know, on these things
right here, and if we ever use
it, we're going to tell you.
And that transparency concept
is a hundred percent what the
folks are looking for right now.
Raul: It's really interesting in the
study, the companies that you work with
are a lot of those either not adopted
it or have they already tried a pilot?
Because usually the stat right now is
that about 95% of pilots have failed.
Robert Manigold: Yeah, no, exactly.
Well be, and some of it is 'cause
they don't know what to do with it,
Raul: Mm.
Robert Manigold: on things that may be
Raul: Don't matter.
Robert Manigold: yeah, exactly.
It really don't matter like.
Or realizing the thing that they piloted
on that they thought could just run
on itself needed a lot of oversight.
And so some of it, this is where this
opportunity, especially in professional
services, is to help give guidance because
for, for the folks on our, on our side of
the world who use it daily, we understand.
You have to really understand
the limitations and we really
understand the limitations.
Like if I generate anything, whether it's
a, an email or a, a summary document,
I need to make sure that it's correct.
I need to go through and look at the
out, I need to know what the output.
Has to look like as if I wrote it.
So it's it, it should be, you know,
it's like in a, a, a, a time saver.
you know, in certain ways like that
you should, you be able to gain
efficiencies with that, but it still
needs a significant amount of oversight.
'cause we're not yet to the day where I
can just have a conversation with my com,
you know, with my laptop and say, Hey,
you know, remember this conversation.
I need you to go do this and
this, and it's fire and forget.
I need to look at the outputs now.
And understand what those are.
And that's like, we're seeing some of the
folks who who've tried and piloted what
we're seeing, like really great riders
are and copywriters who, who everyone
thought was gonna be replaced immediately.
Those are being, those are in a premium
right now because really great writers
know what the output should be, but
they can actually, they can output.
know, five times more content
because they have really great tools
that allow them to produce more.
So it, it, it enables you to be faster,
to market, more responsive, and and, and
so that's, it is just one of those things.
It's, it's a tool I
like, like anything else.
And there's, there, there are respons.
Irresponsible ways to use it.
And a great agency, a great agency has
the opportunity to help guide clients
as to how to do that because we've seen
co companies like absolutely fall flat
when they just, just totally rely on it.
We in both on the agency
side and on the client side.
Because it's just, it's not
Raul: It's just a disaster if
you, if you, if you don't think,
and you outsource your thinking.
That's something that I've been adamant
about either on this pod as much as I
could be, or also in my, in my writing,
is that you can't outsource your thinking.
But going back to practical
takeaways that we can all like.
One of the key things that I really
wanted to, to bring you on here for is,
is that, is that the conversation needs
to happen around the transparency of how
we're using the technology for businesses.
'cause I think that's also
like, it's like a black box.
It can feel like I go,
how are you using my data?
Is it gonna be leaked?
What's the security there?
What is your policy?
But also knowing the nuance that the.
The, the, the client side, the people
using who are most concerned, but also
more interested to actually adopt it.
Either they have board pressure or they
need to adopt it because of cost savings,
or they wanna maximize their human human
amplification, not just a replacement.
Robert Manigold: Yeah.
Raul: which is the better
way of looking at things.
It's just like, what?
What do I not know?
So could you walk us through what were
some of the things from the report?
Like if you're guiding a client or a
prospective client, or let's say you're
doing a seminar and you got 30 minutes
and you're working, what are some of the
things to have a conversation around?
Because you mentioned that through
this report business owners are
having better conversations with their
clients so that they're able to, you
know, bridge the gap on AI literacy.
What are some of those things,
like how it's being used?
Is it data sec?
Do they care more about data security?
Do they care more about how do
we find those things that are
gonna save us time or money?
Like what are some of the biggest
things that bubbled at the top or that
fizzled at the top from the, from the
conversations and the survey that you,
or the report that you put together.
Robert Manigold: Yeah, there was a
couple things that we found there.
So they found like the the folks who were
a little more sophisticated understand
ask the question is my, is any of my data
ever going to be used to train AI models?
Like that's the one.
And that's, and for, there are some who
don't understand that, and there are
some who don't know for in, in, in your
second, it'll just be table stakes.
Like of course we don't use your, any
of your data, but that conversation,
Raul: It has to happen.
Robert Manigold: had.
Raul: It has to happen.
Robert Manigold: It has to happen.
And you need to be transparent and
upfront about how their data is used.
And what we did find that all of
the, the, the concepts we tested.
So we, we do this thing, we test
for emotional resonance to, to, to,
to value propositions and concepts.
So we look at things that people
care about 'cause that's what
drives their decision making.
Everybody likes to think that they're
super logical decision makers, but
you really, your brain makes decisions
with its emotional sin and your.
Limbic systems, you know, and
the neuroscientists proved
that, you know decades ago.
and so we were looking
at what they cared about.
What they really cared about is just
making sure that you protect their
secret sauce, that's the company,
their competitive advantage, whether
it's, you know, whether it's ip whether
it's processes, all of those things.
They wanna make sure that that doesn't go
out in the ether and train everyone else.
because we've, we've all heard the
stories of you know, let's say, you
know, an an RFP goes out and everyone
uses the same model to do it, and all
the, i, all the responses are identical.
So everyone who used that particular
tool, looked exactly the same and was
a sea of sameness because our, our job
in, in, in, in this, you know, creative
world, brand world where, or marketing
and sales is to differentiate our clients.
their key differentiators.
That that is really a, that's that thing
when you understand how to frame the
conversation around protecting their key
differentiators and, and know that like,
because that's what they wanna know.
They wanna know that you,
do you care about them?
Do you know them?
Do you care about my business?
All of those things.
Which, which, may seem odd to
have a conversation about because
you're like, well, of course I do.
I wouldn't be talking to you.
Raul: It, it sounds obvious,
but it has to happen.
It, it has to happen.
It's one of the things that I do with
clients and I talk about a lot, is that.
The the process.
So every client, if they're selling
services or whatever, they have a
unique way of doing that service.
But it doesn't matter how unique it
is, if you don't communicate it and you
don't communicate it by saying, look how
cool I am, or Look how amazing this is.
You communicate it
through the sales process.
You communicate it through your
offering, you communicate it
through the user experience.
And this is a key thing too.
It sounds obvious.
Yeah, duh.
Have these conversations, but it's also.
You're framing it in a way to build trust
without saying, Hey, you can trust us.
So say what you need to say without
saying it through the process.
Robert Manigold: Yeah, absolutely there.
That's no, that's a great, that's a,
that is a great way to put a fine point
on that because it like business is
already pretty hard, you know, like,
it, it's really challenging their
Raul: Yeah.
Robert Manigold: today.
We've just been going through our
economic forecast for, for next year
with some of our partners, and it's
already really challenging everyone like.
Folks need every single bit of help that
they can to, to eek out an advantage.
'cause sometimes, especially like in
like if you're, if you have consumer
facing products most of them are
really competitive all of the time.
All of the time and
every little advantage.
And so we get brought in to discover
how to best take this product to
market and nuance in that man.
Like nuance is where is
where that cash is because.
Companies are made up of people.
Those people are unique and,
and their process is unique.
And you marry those two things
together, and that's the, the, the
secret sauce for, for companies.
And as long as you can communicate
effectively that you understand how
to, you know, how to protect that and
steward that, like, just like you, like a
Raul: Hmm.
Robert Manigold: you would if
you're a financial advisor that's an
effective conversation and good things
will happen when you have those.
Raul: So being a fiduciary for
their data and their secret sauce,
what other, are there any other
points as important as that?
'cause there's a few other things
that I remember from the rapport that
came through with, but are there any,
let's say two or three points that
we should have in that conversation?
Robert Manigold: yeah.
So like I said, you know, you, you
start off the conversation started
early, started transparently and and be
willing to, and be willing to be a guide.
So in this case the, some of the points
that we saw that are in there is.
Your, your teams as much as possible, need
to understand the tools, understand the
tools that are out there because they're
iterating and getting better and better
every day, so that you really need to
understand like clients are expecting.
Guidance on this, especially when they're
at, when in that one bucket of like, Hey,
we don't really know what we're doing,
and they really expect expect and, and
and deserve really good guidance across
the board as to as to, you know, like
best practices, how tools are being used,
and so being, keeping your team familiar.
One of the other things is like have
an AI policy have one, it needs to
be a document of conversation, kind
of like we said in summary earlier.
Have one, have an early.
Like in your, you know, agency
and consultancy, you need to have
someone who in, in a group, ideally
it's a leader that, that, you know,
at the top of leadership in your,
in your organization, you need to
have them own, own that process.
And, and, and you need to continually
educate your entire team on tool usage.
I know there's a, there's a few folks
that have come across in our world who
are like, I never want to use that.
I hate it, you know, and, and, you
know, it's just like when, when
Photoshop came out, I hear, you
know, I heard a lot of the stories of
designers and typesetters from before
who were like, man, I, I don't know.
And some of the folks, you know,
it was just like, Hey, we, we
really need to evolve and now
they can do even more cool work.
And, and it's just one of those things
that you know, it like, it, it's a tool.
But when you know, like.
Apart from being like really transparent.
Those are, I think those are some of the
key things is that you need to own it.
You need to understand it.
It's part of our lives.
toothpaste is never going
back in that tube ever.
And being on the, honestly, being
on the forefront, educating yourself
there are like reach out to peer
groups or e like even me, like I'm
a part of an AI mastermind with.
You know, agency owners across the
US and we meet every month and talk
about best practices and talk about
new products that are coming out.
Use cases and tools to be able to level.
So this is like I said, this, you know,
part of what you do, we're tides and
shifts people, so we believe in educating.
and educating and helping em as
many people as we possibly can.
Find other like-minded people who are and,
and, and and, you know, and, and really
don't hesitate to do a lot of discovery
and ask a lot of questions because, and,
and, and, and don't be I would say don't
be super quick to settle on one tool
and go completely all in forever and
Raul: Oh yeah.
Yeah,
Robert Manigold: a three
Raul: they're, they're
gonna be ubiquitous.
Robert Manigold: contract, you know, with
some big, some big tool because I've seen.
I've seen tools get replaced
in minutes and, you know, in
weeks and weeks and weeks.
And so I, I wouldn't say be reluctant,
but an eyes wide open understanding
of the fact that we're so early on.
And so I have a, a a, you know, I
happen to have a friend who I, I went
to college with, who's now head of
creative at Nvidia for AI and enterprise.
And he, I was like, I texted him
and said, Hey, what are, like, what?
Have you seen some cool stuff?
And he is like, you, you just,
you don't even understand.
'cause he, they get to see
it months early, be before
things are coming to talk.
'cause they gotta build
creative around it.
And he was like, you,
it would blow your mind.
It would absolutely melt your brain at
what some of these AI startups are doing.
And then when it comes to opening up whole
entirely new industries like humanoid
robots and things that, you know, Elon,
those are part and parcel of our lives.
I think it's, it's really exciting.
And there, of course, there, there are
potential things that we need to watch
out for when it comes to trust and safety.
But that's really what, what clients
want in this conversation is absent just
transparency and they want partners.
Raul: Partnerships through transparency.
Having a policy, not only that
you just talk about, but that
you actually operationalize how
to use it when not to use it.
Rules and don'ts, the settings to set
up how we're not gonna share client
information to things that train
them obviously, but having that in
place, disclosing that with clients.
I think that makes it pretty practical.
'cause you can run workshops with
this, you can do lunch and learns,
learns with this as well, with your
clients or prospective clients.
You could possibly do webinars and
just like, depending on your actual
level of expertise, if you just use.
I mean, the tools outta the
boxes are chatting with it.
Maybe that's not the best use case
there, since everyone can do that.
But I, I, I'm, I'm assuming a lot
of the use cases here are developing
product or helping people actually
implement solutions that save
real, real ROI or cost savings.
Robert Manigold: And really, and that
key thing that I wanna hammer, like
again have it as a topic of conversation.
There are some folks who are really
far ahead and they've got, legally,
it's like, oh, we've got our AI policy.
We're just gonna email it over to you.
And you've gotta expect,
you know, you know, it's.
Small business owners and SMBs, right?
But they, the ones who are get, who
are getting it right, are able to
translate the complex into human
terms and to help guide or, you
know or meet, meet the, the prospect
or, or the client where they're at.
If they're going fast, you know,
they're really going to move
fast and break things awesome.
Know where they're at and
know where that's good.
And be able to be another
set of eyes for them.
And when they need guidance,
absolutely do both offer that,
you know, offer the guidance.
the support and training and
ecosystem around them because that
frankly those are the things that,
like, we all want client stickiness.
Like those trust units.
I said, when you like, consistently
build them up and to, and take care
of them day after day after day and
add more, you know, inconsistently
look out for them and add value.
That's, that's what they want.
Like they're, they're
Raul: You need partners.
They, they're looking for partners.
Robert Manigold: true partnerships.
It's really hard.
It's hard to walk away from that because.
They're, they're, they want more
ideas to come in the door for them.
You know, it's like they, they,
they're, you know, and there are some
folks who just want vendors and they
want, you know they want you to just,
Hey, knock out this ticket for me.
Okay?
But once people who want true partners
that are fantastic clients, for the folks
that we're talking to, here you, you
want, you want long-term partnerships
where there's a significant value
and you enter, you're bringing in.
bringing in great ideas that they
can use to grow their business daily.
Raul: Yeah, that's, that
is, that is the key.
You know, I love this.
So for everyone, it's, it's the report.
You got what?
A hundred, 120, 150.
Companies respond to you.
And this was back in September, so
this is still fresh, fresh research.
Robert, for everyone here on the
pod, where can people go to one?
Thank you for sharing this, and
two, learn more about you, connect
with you, get access to the report.
Robert Manigold: Yeah, absolutely.
So let me up.
LinkedIn is probably the
best way to get ahold of me.
My name is Robert Mangold.
I work for a company
called Proof Positioning.
reach out and let me know
that you saw the pod.
I'll be glad to share.
AI policy and be able to glad be
glad to answer questions and help you
out in any way that I possibly can.
'cause, like I said before, and
I've said it a couple times, we're,
we're tides and chips people.
We believe that life should
not be this zero sum game.
If when I see other good people, when I
see good people winning, then that's it.
That's a life worth living for me.
You know, like that's,
that's what I'm here to do.
Life's way too short
to do it any other way.
So reach out and find me on.
LinkedIn and and also like, gave a TEDx
talk several years ago and I was talking
about spotting opportunities for others.
I, I, it's a challenge talk, so I
would challenge you to take a look at
it, like see if you can go throughout
your day spotting opportunities for
others, not just yourself, because
Raul: Mm.
Robert Manigold: we run into.
You know a new, new business opportunity
or something that may not be perfect for
us, but it's perfect for someone we know.
Awesome.
I challenge you to live in abundant
mindset to where like, make, make
the right introductions and do that.
I since I, I, you know, I kind
of accidentally stumbled on
that because it just seemed like
it was the right thing to do.
I didn't.
Come from traditional new business.
I came from operations and it worked,
and I kept doing it and kept doing
it, and I was like, well, that's just
how I, you know, I modeled my life.
So my, I, I love waking up every day,
being able to spot opportunities for other
people and, and try honestly put more
good into the world than I take out of it.
Raul: I love it.
I love it when your work is your craft.
Well, Robert, I'll put the TEDx on the,
on the link below your email, LinkedIn.
We'll put it all there.
Thank you again for being
generous and being on today.
Robert Manigold: Thank you so
much for your time today, man.
I really enjoyed it.
I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a fan of what
you're doing and what you're putting into
the world, so keep up the great work.
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