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Tap to send me your reflections ♡ In this episode I’m joined by the ever-wonderful Adam Lind - coach, author, speaker and narrowboat dweller - for a rich, honest conversation about vulnerability, creativity and the winding path toward a life of internal freedom. Adam shares the profound challenge of losing his father when he was still just a teenager himself - and how that has informed his life choices: to create a life less ordinary. We talk about writing, as a deeply personal process, the p...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
In this episode I’m joined by the ever-wonderful Adam Lind - coach, author, speaker and narrowboat dweller - for a rich, honest conversation about vulnerability, creativity and the winding path toward a life of internal freedom.
Adam shares the profound challenge of losing his father when he was still just a teenager himself - and how that has informed his life choices: to create a life less ordinary.
We talk about writing, as a deeply personal process, the pull between being of service and staying in integrity, and what happens when we start telling the truth about how we really are (even in Tesco). We reflect on loss and grief, success and self-expression, certainty and the freedom to not know - and the deeply human longing for safety in an uncertain world.
Adam's new book, Floating Home: a life less ordinary, is an invitation to seek freedom, joy, and connection, wherever you call home. And I'm honoured to say that part of it was written here, on Adam's solo retreat at Bach Brook.
As always, this is a conversation that moves gently through different spaces - from laughter to tears, lightness to depth - and lands, ultimately, in love.
PRE-ORDER
Floating Home: a life less ordinary by Adam Lind published Sept '25
CONNECT WITH ADAM
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A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Speaker 1: Our conversation
today is with Adam Lind.
He's an author, a coach.
He also has a relatively high
profile existence as someone who
lives on a narrowboat on the
waters in England England.
And more than all of this, he
is a thoroughly wonderful human
being, and I am delighted that
he's joined us today to explore
thoughts and reflections around
the idea of vulnerability and
what it really means when we
show up as ourselves.
Welcome to the Henny Flynn
podcast the space for deepening
self-awareness with profound
self-compassion.
I'm Henny, I write, coach and
speak about how exploring our
inner world can transform how we
experience our outer world, all
founded on a bedrock of
self-love.
Settle in and listen and see
where the episode takes you.
So first of all, I'm going to
welcome you properly and also
say thank you for starting a
little bit later than planned.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that and
it's very nice to see your
smiley face here and yours.
Speaker 1: So just to sort of um
center in on what we were
originally going to talk about,
which would be um, it still
feels really present for me, and
it was around vulnerability and
and I think you were saying the
last time we spoke about the
vulnerability of writing um, and
does that still feel present
for you?
Does that still feel like
something?
Speaker 2: it does, for sure,
but it also feels like
vulnerability to me, doesn't?
I feel like people often use it
as like a scary word.
It doesn't actually scare me.
It's actually where I feel most
comfortable.
Being vulnerable, like telling
anyone and everyone that will
listen exactly what's going on
with me in that moment is like a
gift.
So when we were talking about
it in the writing aspect, it
wasn't even so much from a feel
end.
It was like, wow, now I just
get to write and write about all
my vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: What a joy yeah, and
there's something, as I'm
listening to you, there's
something uh incredibly freeing
about that and about really
sinking into that feeling of
vulnerability and going, well,
what more can I notice here?
That's that really comes up for
me and there's and also you
know that, um, that expression
that you often hear in coaching
and and therapy too, around
being uh comfortable in the
discomfort there's.
That, for me, is what
vulnerability feels like, you
know, when we can kind of like
properly just get into that
uncomfortable space and go and
this is okay for sure, I also
think, for it's a real means of
connection.
Speaker 2: I was thinking about
this recently because someone
said to me like why do you think
you're so good with people?
That's not a, that's not a
slogan I give to myself, but
kindly was given to me by
someone close to me and we got
into talking about actually like
what makes a good conversation
and the art of conversation and
the art of connection, and I was
like was, like you know, I do
enjoy connecting with people, so
maybe let's actually look into
what I think does make a strong
connection or communication.
I actually said to them, I said
I think it's being vulnerable.
I said because I'm so unguarded
, sometimes to my dismay, you
know, if I can meet someone and
lead with something that, like
you know, and someone says, how
are you?
And you actually give the truth
, rather than just like, yeah,
good, thanks you.
I think you've, you've got that
connection because you've,
you've opened yourself up a bit
to them and therefore it's a
little bit of a subtle
invitation where they could feel
safe to do the same.
So I think, yeah, for me,
really, vulnerability has been a
great means to connect with
people on a level like that's
more than just you know,
superficial or small talk.
Speaker 1: I'm really mindful of
that moment when we met in the
back of our camp at a secret
garden party and Anna and I came
back from a little wander
around and there was this
strange man standing in our camp
with this enormous smile on his
face, just looking around at it
all and, just like you, were
obviously loving what we'd
created in that space.
There was that space of
vulnerability, the kind of like
the releasing of social mores
and those kind of constraints
that we can have when we first
engage with somebody, because
you were just so delighted with
what we'd created, we were so
delighted with how delighted you
were.
And then that was this
beautiful stepping off point for
a connection that has just sort
of built and built and built,
which you know, sometimes those
connections they fly by, don't
they?
But sometimes they remain.
Speaker 2: I mean, I knew the
moment I met you I was like,
okay, I am gonna infiltrate
myself into this person's life
until they become, until they
become like a pillar in my life,
because sometimes you just have
that feeling and I'm very much
like, if I feel like I need
someone in my life, it becomes
like a non-negotiable for me.
I definitely had that feeling
when I first met you and what a
nice reflection.
To think back from that
essential field dance floor
maybe two and a half years ago,
I guess to this moment is, wow,
what a journey.
Speaker 1: And so when you think
about the journey that you've
been on in that time and the
journey that's brought you to
writing the book, which is, um,
you know we're recording it now
in kind of middle of March I
think.
I think that's the month we're
in, um, and then this is going
to be heard sort of later in
April, once the book has been
published.
So talk a bit about that
journey that took you even to
writing the book, adam, like
what led you there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you
for that lovely open-ended
question.
This is the moment where I
think how to be concise in some
way.
But yeah, I think for me, the
real turning point in my life
that I guess is the grounds of
the book was when I was 17,.
I lost my father it.
The main lesson I got from it
that, I think, is the most
poignant and pinnacle moment
that led me to writing a book is
I felt like the constructs of
society and like the illusion of
what our modern society is.
These walls were just like
ripped down, because I felt,
well, you know, we are finite
and I think we often so live as
if we are infinite.
And even though maybe we use
these phrases like oh, like you
only live once and like live for
the day, like do we actually
embody them, myself included?
I'm asking that question too,
because I need to remember this
all the time.
But I really had this awakening,
I guess, of like why would I
want to spend my life working
nine till five at a job I don't
enjoy?
Not that saying there's
anything wrong with this path,
but I was observing so many
people around me moaning about
this path, people older than me
and I had this moment of like
well, my dad's gone.
I'm not sure where he's gone,
I'm not sure what happens after
life.
But this analogy of I was sorry
, not analogy this story I
always remember of like all my
friends are like wondering about
who they're going to kiss at
the club on the weekend and I'm
like where are we and who are we
?
And like where are we going to
go after this thing of this meat
, body, flesh that I'm in right
now and grief really gave me
that as a gift to be like okay,
I want to carve a life out for
myself that feels meaningful and
that's on my own terms.
Carve a life out for myself
that feels meaningful and that's
on my own terms.
Um, so that was kind of the
journey.
I guess that then led me to
meeting my wife and we decided
to go on this journey where we
were trying to hitchhike from
London to India, which there's
many tales within, but we lived
on the road for like five years
and it was amazing because when
you take away the idea of like
getting planes and trains and
buses and you run really
vulnerably, open yourself up to
just complete strangers, like we
would only use hitchhike rides,
that was the deal.
So we're picked up by like
hundreds and hundreds, probably
close to a thousand people over
the time, and it was almost like
a research project of like one
opening ourself up to strangers
to reinstate this belief that
human beings are good and also
being able to sneak peeks of
everyone's life story to carve
our own, because I remember
people would say things to me
like when are you going to join
the real world?
You know, and I'll I'll be
thinking.
Well, last week I was in like
the mountains of Albania living
with this family who, like, live
completely off grid, and then,
a month before that, I was in,
you know, the back end of
Germany living with like a
community of like 20 people that
all have children living in
this big shared house.
So it's like when you ask me
when I'm going to join the real
world, like we all have our own
version of the real world, and I
think when you're brought up in
a, a bubble, let's say that you
don't leave.
It can be very easy to feel like
your world is the center of
everything and everything
outside it is like not the real
world.
So I felt like I was on this
research project for five years
to kind of scope what I want my
real world to look like, and on
that journey had many twists and
turns, highs and lows, some
really bad mental states, some
really high mental states, but
they all kind of accumulated to
now where I currently live on my
narrow boat traveling around
the UK and wrote this book kind
of on the basis of that like of
some life lessons that are
really an invitation to look
inside yourself.
More than me saying this is
what I've learned, because one
thing I learned right in the
book is that I haven't got any
of these lessons down, and
that's the beauty of what I want
it to be.
It's like an offering, an
invitation to myself.
Actually it's a very
self-indulgent act.
It's like a big reminder to
myself that I'm hoping other
people will find useful as well.
Speaker 1: I.
I think, adam, all creativity
is that, like all creativity
unless it's something that that
we're like pushing out or or is
being like pulled out of us with
a, with a sort of tension and
resistance the act of creativity
is the act of um birthing
ourselves into being, you know,
like what?
What?
What is it?
How do we experience the world?
Who am I in relation to um
others?
You know, that's really what
creativity gives us, and I
really love the expression on
your face, as you said, because
I kind of realized, like I
literally know none of this,
because that is the ultimate
place of vulnerability, isn't it
?
It's being able to say well,
here's a bunch of stuff that I
thought I knew, but it turns out
that, as I explore it, I don't,
and yet I have a fresh
perspective on something else
you know and that really
resonates as you're talking.
Speaker 2: I think also this
idea that, like we do know it
inherently, like I know the
lessons in this book, so does
everyone else, but I forget them
.
So it came to a point last week
when I was proofreading one
specific chapter and I read it
and I thought, god, that's good.
God, I needed to hear that,
because I've so not been living
like this for the last two weeks
, like I've been completely
catastrophizing, completely
spiraling, and these words have
really helped me, even though I
wrote them so it's also this
idea that, yes, I do know them,
but so does everyone else.
Speaker 1: I get that yeah, I
get that.
So so the the first, the first
book that I wrote was my darling
girl, which was a collection of
these poems that kept, like, I
was basically like kind of
vomiting them onto the pages of
my journal.
Every now and again something
would come up and it would just
go, you know, and land in me.
And even now, like I look back
sometimes I'm like I just think
I wonder what she would say and
I'll take the book off the shelf
, I'll open it up at a random
page and go god, I literally
have no memory of writing that.
None, no, none at all.
And it is exactly what I need
to hear.
So this again, this sense that
the creativity is as much for
ourselves, oh, in fact, maybe
completely actually, because I
think there's also something
about, you know, when you're in
that process of creation, of
creation that, um, it's not
about having thousands or
millions of eyes on it, although
obviously you know it's nice
and we want the, you know the
things that we create
commercially to sell.
But the more important thing is
, like, what's the feeling, that
and the energy that's being
carried through that piece, and
then how does that resonate with
others?
Strongly, that the book has
become something that has been
really, really important to you
in your own process of
self-learning and discovery, and
that I feel that is beautiful
yeah, thank you, and absolutely
it's become like my everything.
Speaker 2: like it's so crazy,
like even the publishers have
said to me, like we're not used
to seeing people like this
invested in their own book and
I'm to but to me I'm like how?
Firstly, how are people not
this invested?
And secondly, again vulnerably,
to touch on your point it's
been a real dance for me to
remember that it's not about how
many eyes see it, because
there'd be times, even in the
creation process, I'd get lost
in, like how am I going to
promote this?
What's a good marketing idea?
What's going to get people to
buy this?
Like, because of my job, which
is essentially creating content
online, it's very much measured
and valued by how many eyes
watch it.
Like was this a success, for
how many thousands of people
watch this video I've created?
And it's been so interesting to
, as I say, dance with this idea
of remembering, actually, what
a special opportunity this is
for me to be able to do and
trust that it will be read by
the right people, and also to
enjoy the writing process and
then, when that's finished, then
focus on the marketing part of
it.
But it was amazing how many days
my mind would just wander off
into like ideas of how to
promote this thing before it was
even fully in existence.
Speaker 1: I love that, adam, I
love the vulnerability to your
point of that, because it's also
the recognition of how we sort
of segue up through, you know,
into the head and then into the
heart, and then we're like down
and like, like deep, deep wisdom
, and then up in the heart again
about like, what will people
think?
And then up in the head about
like, and these are the things I
need to do, but being able to
like, um, travel with ourselves
through those different phases
and remembering to keep
anchoring back into that place
of, you know, grounded
connection and just like.
Oh no, hang on a minute.
What we're actually doing here
is this there's something that's
been coming up a lot for me in
client conversations and also in
in friendship conversations
with some of the friends that
you know very well.
I've been saying are we asking
the right question here?
And this whole sort of this
concept of asking the right
question is something that comes
from my brand and communication
days.
You know I used to do that in,
you know, big, you know, when I
was running.
What were they called Meetings?
That's it.
That's the word.
Speaker 2: What were those
things called?
Were these people?
Speaker 1: gathering around the
table, not a retreat, wasn't
that?
It was a meeting.
People gathered around the table
, not a retreat, wasn't that?
You know?
And I'd be sort of leading
these yeah, sort of, you know,
whatever these meetings and one
of the questions I'd ask is,
like you know, are we asking the
right question?
And just listening to you there
talking about the recognizing
those times where a part of you,
for very understandable reasons
, wanted to ask the question of
well, how are we going to make
sure this is a success inverted
commas and and it would have had
its own criteria of what
success looks like and then the
other part of you stepping in
and going well, hang on a minute
, we could.
Also, how could we enjoy this
process?
Speaker 2: and that feels like a
much deeper question for sure,
and I mean this is a bit of a I
guess tangent or sidestep, which
I think is allowed on this
podcast, but it also got me
thinking, as you were talking,
something that's been coming up
for me in regards to asking the
right questions in like our
interpersonal relationships,
because you probably heard this
before, but what I tend to do is
like try and save everyone
around me.
So I had this thing with my
wife recently that she won't
mind me sharing, where she was
just in a bit of like a tiz
about something, and I was like,
well, why don't you do this and
why don't you do that and why
don't you do this?
And the magic question for me
when you ask, am I asking the
right questions?
And when I asked myself after,
what could I have asked in that
moment was do you want advice or
do you want me to just listen?
Speaker 1: oh.
Speaker 2: I love this question
and after, as I went up to her
and I said I should have said to
you would you like advice or do
you want me to just listen?
Because how often do people
just want to rant and vent and
they're not looking for you to
be like, well, how about if you
did this?
And then maybe we could figure
out if you do this?
Because that will come and
really I just should have like
allowed her to like offload.
So this idea of asking the
right question, I think comes up
to me a lot, particularly when
I have like a mind, I would say,
similar to yours, where you
know it will maybe remind us of
something or a tool we've
learned or a conversation we've
had, and it can be so good to be
like let me share this with you
, but actually is that the right
thing to be doing in that
moment or is it just absolutely?
Speaker 1: and actually I mean
and as I listen like the the
even cleaner way, potentially,
is to say what do you need?
Because often people don't know
, and so that's then enabling
them to sort of challenge
themselves into a kind of what
is it I actually?
What do I actually need?
Because often we can have a
belief you'll have seen this in
your coaching work, same as me
that someone will come and say,
um, you know, I just want you to
, to give me some strategies for
dealing with x, and it's like
well, I have some strategies,
but they're mine, they might not
be yours, so let's begin with
what your strategies are.
And you know, not to say that
you kind of withhold information
and knowledge, but, like we
always begin with with the other
person, that there's also, uh,
in the um theme of vulnerability
and um and showing up fully.
I have just been through a
really challenging place myself.
Bit of a dark night, a bit of a
dark night.
I love how I minimized it.
It was absolutely horrific,
adam.
I've been in a really, really
dark place and I've shared a bit
about it on the podcast already
.
But one of the things that I
have done so differently this
time because these, these sort
of depressive dips.
They're something I'm very
familiar with.
I've experienced them all my
life.
I recognize them, um, but in
the past what I would do is pull
down a veil and just distance
myself.
And this time and I've been
learning it for some time, but
this time it was like super
clear.
You know, people were saying
how are you?
And I'd say I am not okay.
And then I'd say, no, I am okay
, I don't feel okay and that's
okay.
And then I'd say, and I don't
need anything from you.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: And, oh my God,
honestly it's been.
It's meant I could remain in
contact with other human beings
when in the past I would have
had to have just isolated myself
because I just couldn't
tolerate their care, their
emotion, their feelings about
how I was feeling.
It's just like just keep all
that to yourself.
I can only tolerate what I'm
going through right now, and
being able to say that, express
that with love but clarity, has
been incredibly powerful and
incredibly vulnerable.
Speaker 2: And I'd hope and
imagine, incredibly inspiring
for others.
Like I have a bit of a rule
where I won't say I'm good if
I'm not good, sometimes again to
my disadvantage.
And there was this funny well,
funny, yeah, let's call it funny
period where I was in a really
down place also and whenever I'd
go into Tesco's or the
supermarket and the person would
scan my shopping, they'd be
like, oh hi, how are you?
And I'd be like, oh, not good.
And the interesting thing is
one of two things would happen.
The funniest one that I'd love
if they would go oh nice,
because they're so used to a
monotonous response that they
assume I'm gonna say yeah, good,
so I'd be level how are you?
I'm like not good you.
They're like, oh good, yeah,
I'm good, thanks.
And I'm like this is a brilliant
um visual of how we've become
as a society, really robotic and
really are we asking how are
you?
Because we care or because it's
you know this, or they would
I'd.
They'd say how are you?
And I'd say not good, and
they'd look completely shocked
and nervous and I'd be like, oh
no, no, don't worry, like I
don't, I don't need anything
from you, but you asked and I
didn't want to lie um.
And then sometimes I have these
experiences after where I feel
a bit guilty because I don't
like to put people in like a
situation like that, but I feel
like it's a disservice or a
dishonor to myself to not tell
people how I am and again
hopefully allow other people to
be okay with how they are.
I had this idea that it's really
important to ask how are you?
Twice to people, because if I'm
like, oh hi, how are you,
they're like good, thanks you.
And I'm like, how are you?
Speaker 1: and then often you
get a very different answer the
second time it's a really lovely
technique to you know, um, yeah
, or even to ask it sort of
three times, and then it's like
because it's, because often it's
like that kind of like how are
you?
And then it's how are you, and
then it's how are you.
So, yeah, I just by this, right
yeah well, I just wondered did?
Has anyone ever responded in a
different way in the supermarket
when you've done that?
Speaker 2: I think yes to memory
.
I can think because let's
branch out the supermarket as
well, because this is something
that I just do everywhere I go,
you get people being like.
I hope you're okay which is also
a really nice response and
again, there's no like savior
complex within it.
It's just like an olive branch,
I guess, if that's the right
phrase, um, but it's um, but
yeah, off.
I think the the message for me
was how that how shocked people
were shows how potentially
scared we are to say when we're
not okay and this idea that
we're so um, although this kind
of contradicts itself.
But I say sometimes I've I've
struggled with the fear of
success.
So it's like I'm really good at
telling people when I'm not
good or when things aren't going
well or when, like I was felt
skin or like this, but then
actually, when things were going
really well, I'd actually
struggle to express that.
So and I guess by saying like
yeah, I'm okay isn't saying
you're really good either, it's
just being in the middle, but
vulnerably.
I guess I have a bit of a weird
thing with the other end of the
spectrum, like when I'm in
depths of despair, I can tell
everyone, but when I'm feeling
like I'm in a success state and
one of my fears actually around
promoting the book is like this
like look how great I'm doing
thing I find much more
uncomfortable than I do.
Yeah, you know, sitting with
whoever will listen in my woes.
Speaker 1: I see this all the
time, adam, this thing of where
as a society, I think culturally
, there is something about the
British culture that slightly
denigrates success or, you know,
happiness or joy, or it's
almost like well, well, you
can't be striving hard enough if
you're in a really like upbeat
and everything feels easeful
kind of place.
That's definitely a kind of a
bit of a.
I think I have a little bit of
that story.
I don't really care that I have
a little bit of that story.
I kind of recognize it, but but
.
But you know it doesn't inhibit
me too much, but I think that's
quite common and I think there's
also the kind of that very
natural, like human tendency of
like we don't want to say that
things are really great, in case
we're, you know, creating a
sort of risk, you know upsetting
the fates.
You know going right back into
like Greek mythology and this
idea of like you know, you know,
don't tell everybody how
fabulous your cow is, because
the cow is going to get struck
by lightning, because Zeus will
be jealous of how much you love
your cow.
You know.
That's a very ancient bit in
our brain and I think it's.
I think there's something
really sort of beautiful in the
extension of this vulnerability
story, actually about what it
feels like to really sit in the
discomfort of, of that aspect of
vulnerability that's it is.
Speaker 2: I've been trying to
practice it more.
I think for me a big part.
When I tried to unpick, it was
also around.
I don't want people to feel
like I'm bragging or like I
don't want people to leave my
presence and think oh or like.
I don't want people to leave my
presence and think, oh, he's
full of himself, which has been
such an interesting process in
the book.
Because, essentially, who am I
to think?
I can write a book and people
should read what I have to think
, and with that you have to have
a little bit of like.
I believe in what I say.
So at the beginning of the book
I relay this story that
happened when I was in India and
I was living in an ashram for a
while and the guru there I had
depict to me as like the wisest
man I've ever met, because he
taught me so much and he would
give us these lectures and
philosophies about life every
day.
And at the beginning of every
lecture he'd stand up and he'd
say, just so you will remember,
I know nothing.
And I used to think how can
this man say he knows nothing,
like to me, he knows everything.
And he'd go on to be like the
more a person thinks they know,
the less they know, because
essentially, when you become the
knower, you stop becoming the
student and you stop being open
to learn.
So I start the book with this
anecdote because, again like yes
, I am happy to be proud of
myself, for where I've come and
what, the way I've developed my
mind, but none of this is like I
know this or you should this,
like for me, the words no,
should and shouldn't I've tried
to eradicate from my vocabulary,
could and couldn't can be there
when it comes to advice and
rather than I know it's, I
believe or I feel because I
think.
Yeah again, this balance or
this dance between wanting
people to read what I have to
say because I really believe
there is some value in that, but
without it being this.
You know, I was trying to
explain to the publisher and we
were talking about it.
I want to be like the anti-guru
.
I don't want to be the guru
like the all-knowing anything.
I'm like I know nothing.
But also I might have something
that might be of interest to
you.
But how do you like fully back
yourself if you're only being
like?
This might be interesting to
you, this might help.
It's way harder to sell than to
be like seven lessons to change
your life.
Speaker 1: Absolutely A hundred
percent.
So this is.
I think this is.
Maybe there's a bit of
zeitgeist-ness around this and
maybe that's just my wishful
thinking, but it is a lot easier
to sell certainty because
there's a human condition,
that's what so many of us are
looking for, because, perhaps
for very, very valid reasons, we
haven't had certainty in our
lives and and actually, with
your backstory and what you
experienced as an adolescent, it
would have been extremely
understandable if that had taken
you off in a different path,
where you'd actually sought
certainty down a path where I'm
not saying that certainty has
never been important for you,
but where you know some of those
like classic social guardrails
around certainty you rejected.
So you know hitch hiking for
five years to India.
It's not a classic path.
You certainty.
Speaker 2: So interesting to
hear you reflect this because
you're so right and I've never
framed it like that, but like my
biggest, my biggest struggle is
usually when I'm searching for
certainty, because you know
particularly, I suffer quite
badly with health anxiety.
When I like get something wrong
with me, I'm convinced I'm
dying.
It happens way more than I'd
like it to currently happening a
little bit in the last week as
well for full vulnerability and
all I'm searching for in those
moments when I'm either
scrolling through google or like
wanting doctors to talk to me,
is certainty.
Yet, like you say, my, my
actual physical life path, yeah,
has constantly been in almost
the search for uncertainty, even
living on the boat, and I've
never really framed it like that
, um, as someone that feels like
they can only really only happy
when they have certainty.
Yet I seem to have disproved
that, I guess, over the way I've
lived and also I mean the
metaphor of being on a boat.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's
literally like water, it's
constantly in a state of
balancing you know, balance as a
, as a verb, not a noun, you
know, um.
So I think that is very curious
, very, very curious, and
obviously what I'd really love
to do is dive into that bit of
the conversation.
Speaker 2: But this is a podcast
and not yeah, I was gonna say
I'd love to caveat this by
saying I'm very lucky that
obviously I've had a lot of life
coaching therapy from you.
So if at any part of this
conversation, if someone's
listening and it feels like I'm
going into these like deep
reflections, is because that's
how I'm very used to this, this
kind of style going.
So it's like this is like half
a live therapy session because
it would be in exactly the same
setup and half a podcast.
So I'm like gosh, I'm gonna
listen back to this and be like
wow, that was a tangent, like
amazing mixture of everything
that we embody together.
So, yeah, I was definitely
falling a bit into there of like
another epiphany.
Right, let's go deep into that.
I'm going to wait.
People might hear this.
Speaker 1: Well, I think and it
does it does really echo back to
what you were saying about,
about the book as well.
But this, this sort of stance,
of kind of like this, isn't
about giving certainty.
It's actually about saying well
, here's a thing, how do you
feel about that?
What does that bring for you?
That's enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's very
much also about there's a lot
in it around this idea of like
taking the first step, because
one of the things was that I
heard when I got back from the
hitchhiking trip and now we live
on the boat and we've built
this community of people online.
Everyone's always like but how
did you do it?
And there's these some
misconceptions that we were
either like given money from our
parents which, completely
untrue, like over the five years
we'd saved about three thousand
pound between us before we left
.
And when you take out the cost
of travel because we were
hitchhiking and you take out the
cost of accommodation because
we would either wild camp or
stay with strangers on this
platform called couch surfing,
where people host you all over
the world, you need very little
money to travel and so, yeah,
there's either this
misconception that we're rich or
have some kind of trust fund or
I don't know.
We have this kind of special
ability and the one of the
reasons as well I wanted to
write the book was says people
like I am no one or nothing
special and that's the best
thing, because neither are you,
so you can do all these things
that I've done.
And also, to caveat, I don't
think you want to do the things
I've done.
I think you want to just be
living a life slightly outside
the one you're living now, and
it's easier to depict that on
someone that's living what you
say is like a dream life, are
you?
This is really nice anecdote.
Can I say an anecdote that I've
written is really nice?
Speaker 1: sure, yeah, you say
whatever you like.
Speaker 2: I retold this story
in the book of how, like when
I'm it's the summer, I'm sitting
on the roof of the boat.
This is a common occurrence and
whatever I'm doing, I could be
having a great time.
I could be having a difficult
time.
People will walk past and
they'll look at me and they'll
be like, ah, that's the life,
right.
And the interesting part there
is I could have been having like
an existential crisis up there.
But what is actually happening
is when they say that's the life
, is that they're, they're
taking this man on top of this
boat is the idea of freedom
outside of their life and a life
that maybe they would love to
live but don't find an
achievable one.
So one of the chapters in this
book is to entertain.
What does freedom look like and
what's the very first step we
can take?
And that doesn't necessarily
necessarily mean leave your
marriage, quit your job, go live
on a boat or travel the world.
It could literally mean the
smallest of things.
You know, I can't think of an
example right now, but that one
smallest step could feel like
freedom to you.
But this depiction of me on top
of the boat to so many people
is freedom.
Yeah, half the time I'm up
there absolutely.
Spiraling to so many people is
freedom, yeah, half the time.
I'm up there absolutely
spiralling.
Speaker 1: So I'm just a figure
of their imagination.
Really I love that.
Anton and I almost bought a
house based on a similar thing.
We walked up to this cottage.
There was a guy sitting outside
on a sort of wooden fold-up
chair, a kind of really like.
It was kind of wooden fold-up
chair that, you know, you just
really really wanted to have in
your life.
It was beautiful, kind of like
maybe like 1930s sort of classic
design, and he was playing a
guitar and there was incense
burning and we were just like,
well, we're buying that.
I mean obviously we weren't
going to get the man Like what
we really wanted was him.
And I think obviously we
weren't going to get the man
Like what we really wanted was
him, and I think I'm not sure, I
think we might have put an
offer in and then about three
days later went oh my God, what
have we done?
Like it's completely illogical,
the house doesn't work, like
there isn't, you know.
And then we suddenly realized
we just Like there isn't, you
know.
And then we suddenly realized
we just, we just absolutely
dived into what our perception
of what his life looked like in
that moment, and then we'd gone
every minute of our life from
now on will be like that, which,
of course, course, is nonsense.
Speaker 2: It's nonsense and an
amazing gift, because what it
then makes you can allow you to
ask yourself is what feeling do
I believe that that man has and
how can I bring that feeling
into my life exactly?
I always say to people when
they're like how do I live like
you?
And I'm like well, you, you
will never live like me and
trust me half the time you
wouldn't want to, but what do
you think I'm living like?
What feeling do you think it
will bring you?
And then how do we bring that
in your life?
It's also I talk about this
when it comes to like goals,
like how can we say you know,
I'll be happy when I have this
house, or I'll be happy when I
have anything that I've never
had before, because how can I
know what feeling it's going to
bring me when I've never
experienced it in the first
place?
So then when we say, okay, I'll
be happy when I feel x, and we
use a feeling that maybe we felt
before, and then we ask ourself
okay, how can I potentially
feel like that right now if
nothing in my life changes?
I don't gain anything material
or lose anything material.
How can I bring that feeling
into my life right now?
Because we might spend 5, 10,
20 years chasing something that
we could have had right in front
of us.
Because it's the feeling of
what we believe something's
going to bring us that I think
we need to focus more on than
the thing itself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean that
I did a, an event last night,
all about intention setting and
using journaling to help us with
intentions and manifestation,
and that is fundamentally what
intentions give us, isn't it?
You know they give us this like
well, what's the how do I want
to feel?
And then we, and then we set a
statement of intent that I feel
it now and, interestingly,
actually, what?
Um, you used the word freedom
earlier and the intention that
fell onto my page when I was
because I do the exercises with
everybody was I am free, like
that, and normally my intention
is I am safe or I am calm, I am
kind, I am clear.
That's been one that's like
traveled with me for a long time
, but now it's like I'm clear.
That's been one that's like
traveled with me for a long time
, but now it's like I am free.
And I mean this is a complete,
like little sidestep all about
me, this experience that I've
had, this like dark night of the
soul that I've been through,
where it's left me is, you know,
my strong desire is to swear
quite sort of baldly right now,
but is to say I am free, like,
and fearless, and releasing so
much of that crap that still
clings.
Even with all of the work that
I've done, even with all of the
knowledge that I have, even,
even with all of the work that
I've done, even with all of the
knowledge that I have, even,
even with all of the life
experience that I have, there's
still stuff that clings.
And you know, and I recognize
this as a cycle and I'll go
through this again as I, you
know, at another stage I'll go
oh, hang on a minute, there was
still some more, I'll just
release that.
Um, but that sense of being
sort of free and fearless also
ties in to the concept of
vulnerability, I think, because,
you know, it feels incredibly
brave to say I am free, free of
what well, I think that's also
the thing is the free of
whatever it is at that
experience, because you know how
.
Speaker 2: You say we're going
to go through this again and we
will.
But I do think it is different
every time and like, as you know
, on a personal level, I've gone
through like a really, really
difficult year and you said to
me in a voice note the other day
you were like I really feel in
your energy and in your words
that you've like turned over a
page and I have, and I found
freedom in one, one aspect of my
life and in a way that I never
thought I would have found.
It really, um, a lot to do with
kind of like attachment, stars
and all this kind of like
textbook stuff that I think was
actually taught me is.
It can be quite dangerous
because for me to say, right,
well, I've got an anxious
attachment style, I've been
labeled that as myself, and when
I say I'm free, I've really
broken a pattern of anxious
attachment and feel so much more
securely attached to everyone
in my life in a way that I
thought I would never probably
reach, with the danger of
knowing that, well, I'm an
anxious attachment.
So that's just how I show up
and it took a lot of ruffling of
most my feathers to throw me
into the dark night of the soul,
to have to crawl my way out of
it as a more securely attached
person.
So that was finding freedom
right, yeah, and I think freedom
comes up.
I originally wanted to call the
book searching for freedom
because, again, a big part of my
journey was, you know, like I
said, I lost my father.
I embark on this travel around
the world in the search for
freedom and I found it
externally and then went through
a very dark mental stage.
And there's this story of me
being in a hammock in Bali
drinking from a coconut and my
wife takes a photo of me and she
puts it on Facebook and
everyone's like you guys,
freedom, freedom.
And I'm sitting there literally
having a crisis and then it hit
me like a light bulb, like I
found freedom externally but
it's going to count for nothing
until I find it internally.
And again, the premise of this
book being that is like hoping.
It's an invitation to help
people look for freedom
internally more than externally,
because that is true freedom in
my belief.
And again, so much easier
because you don't have to travel
the world for five years,
because you're not going to find
it there, you're going to find
it exactly where you are.
So you don't have to get a
narrowboat or get a camper van
or any of these things to find
freedom, because we're looking
for it again externally, but
it's, it's not there and isn't
it interesting that, um, you
know, as I A, that's utterly
beautiful.
Speaker 1: So, just really
honoring what you've just said
and as I listen and I think
about you know my, so my
background, you know, corporate
exec, you know, feels so
unlikely as I sit here now, but
was true.
And the way that for so many
people, and certainly for myself
, we get caught into systems
like that because we're looking
for safety and in exactly,
safety and freedom.
You know they're the two anchor
points and the two anchor
points.
And you know, looking for
safety in the external world,
looking for security in the, you
know the job and the paycheck
and the and the sort of the
position and the connection with
colleagues and all of that.
You know it gives this this
trap, the trappings of safety.
But we also recognize, of course
, that the world is not stable.
Nothing is stable.
You learn at a very young age
that life can be taken very
suddenly, and that is the
fundamental truth for every
single person who's ever born,
the fundamental truth for every
single person who's ever born.
And yet we resist that thought.
You know the parts of us with
these like egoic tendencies that
are so terrified about what
might happen if we don't exist.
You know we resist that so
strongly that we're endlessly
looking for this sense of safety
and and I wonder whether it
just feels like there's this
correlation between the things
that people also label as
freedom that are outside of them
.
You know, endlessly looking for
something, because then
actually you don't have to look
inside, you don't have to seek
the freedom within, you don't
have to seek the freedom within,
you don't have to seek the
safety within, because all the
attention is out there.
So I think anything that any of
us do create, share, feel,
experience, that help to really
bring our attention and our
focus like into this inner
landscape, is so important yeah,
and often it's brought to us
through, for example, a time of
adversity exactly it's like a
really common story and I like I
love adversity.
Speaker 2: There's one of the
chapters in the book is called
the gift of adversity, because I
started to notice all the most
inspirational people in my life
had a really pinnacle adverse
moment that happened to them,
which led them to become the
person they are today, and that
for me, yeah, I guess, was
losing my father, but also other
things that have happened, and
obviously it's so hard in the
moment to remember that
adversity is going to bring you
these gifts and these lessons.
But I really feel like they are
and it's.
I feel like, if we view
adversity as almost like an
opportunity, it's.
Yeah, I don't want to move into
like the toxic positivity state
of like, yay, bad things are
happening, gonna learn so much,
but there's an undercurrent of
truth that I actually feel in
that, um, and yeah, just this,
just this remembrance that it's.
Yeah, I do think adversity is a
gift.
Speaker 1: I think there's
something that really resonates
with a conversation that I had
with an amazing woman actually,
who I think you'd really love,
aisling Mustan, who talks about
going through her own dark night
of the soul, going through her
own dark night of the soul, and
the theme that really came
strongly through was this thing
about like, being with like I
have a book in me, by the way,
which is about that, but anyway,
that's a separate topic but
this sort of concept of like, of
really being with what we're
experiencing, and knowing that
if we keep going forward, there
will be light.
And what she said was that
depression is when you get it,
you're in the middle of the
tunnel, you can't see the light
behind and you can't see the
light ahead and you just stop
and sit.
But the process of like, taking
ourselves like through the
tunnel, is about recognizing
this is part of the process and
if I keep going forward, inch by
inch, maybe I will start to see
the light.
And and I think sort of part of
that to your point around um,
that kind of the power of
adversity is not about the toxic
positivity of like yay, bad
things are happening and I'm
gonna grow, but just going, like
okay, this is this is happening
.
This is happening.
This is happening, and my past
experience is that I can come
through difficult times and that
from then you know, other
things have been good.
So I will learn something.
I just don't know what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it can
almost move into this whole like
non-duality thing that I really
enjoy of like this is happening
and it's actually not good, a
bad thing or a good thing.
It's just happening and it's
how we respond to it.
Right, because it will be both.
You know, it took a really long
time for like some of my family
to accept that I would say I'm
really grateful for losing my
father, because they would be
really triggered by that and I
understood why.
At the time, of course, I
wasn't grateful and I thought it
was terrible.
Now I don't think I would have
gone on to live any of the life
I live if I hadn't.
So I can.
It can also have turned out to
be, in ways, a good thing and a
bad thing, and neither, because
it just happens and I think that
space I really enjoy of like
you know, when are we going to?
are we going to react to this
conversation, or are we to this
situation or are we going to
respond to it?
And that difference for me
between reacting and responding
is that, ok, this is happening
and I can, you know, go through
so many different doors to
choose how I'm going to respond
to it.
But let's try and make a
mindful choice and maybe visit
quite a lot of the doors and
then come to a place of like OK,
this is how I'm going to choose
to move through it.
Speaker 1: Because there's also
no right or wrong way to do it.
Again, I'm a non-duality match.
But, um, yeah, yeah, gosh, I
love I mean that that imagery of
of the doors and opening and
and the opening as many of them
as you want and choosing to
close them or to walk through,
and then to come back and then
to you know the fact that
they're one of my favorite
phrases is there are no rules,
and you know all.
All we can do is love, love.
Speaker 2: Fantastic.
Speaker 1: Let's come back to
that.
Adam, yeah, and that also
brings me straight back to that
moment of finding this wonderful
young man in our camp and Anna
and I coming in and just saying
hello and you turning and saying
hello, do you live here?
Yes, it's wonderful.
Speaker 2: And just this feeling
of like I want to live here too
.
Speaker 1: Well, that's, I think
, I think a doorway, a portal
into love opened in that moment.
And yeah, I'm sending you a lot
of love right now and so much
deep respect for everything that
you have traversed in the last
when, the time that I've known
you but and in the time before
and, and how beautiful that you
were able to find this place
inside you, for writing the book
in the way that feels so sort
of like it's really honoring
your value set and and how you
really want to be expressing
yourself.
It's beautiful thank you all
right, my darling.
So look, um, I'm gonna press
record in a minute and then
we'll do the interview.
Yeah, I was like, why wouldn't?
I was like, I'm gonna finally
get through a conversation with
you about crying.
Speaker 2: And then it was about
to come and I was like, okay,
I'm, I wouldn't.
I was like I'm going to finally
get through a conversation with
you about crying.
And then it was about to come
and I was like, okay, I'm so
glad you broke the state.
Speaker 1: Oh honey bunny.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: That was gorgeous.
Thanks, Adam.
Speaker 2: Thank you for, uh
yeah, Wanting me to be a part of
your podcast sphere.
It's a complete honour and a
privilege.
Speaker 1: Oh you.
Speaker 2: I hope people enjoy
it.
Speaker 1: It's been really
gorgeous, really really gorgeous
, talking, and do you know what.
So normally I, particularly if
I'm, you know, in conversation
with someone, I'll have some
kind of thoughts I'll have, like
you know, I'll have a kind of
arc, a narrative arc that I very
skillfully and, you know,
gently guide us through.
And then I realized, as I was,
as I was kind of moving through
today, I just kept thinking I
really do need to like write
some notes, and then it was just
like I obviously wasn't doing
it.
It became very clear to me that
I wasn't doing it and that, for
me, speaks to the willingness
back to this sort of theme of
vulnerability, really the
willingness just to show up of
theme of vulnerability, really
the willingness just to show up
and see where something takes us
.
Speaker 2: so I have loved this
traveling journey with you today
yeah, equally, I sometimes go
into a podcast thinking of like
certain points I want to say and
then just thought, nah, we'll
be all right.
I mean there's like, it's
beautiful because there's the
part trust, the part like belief
for knowing, and the part that
we both really like talking that
I just knew would just carry
everything so perfectly,
particularly the final part and
on that note, I'm gonna press
stop recording.
Speaker 1: Thank you.