Speaking Municipally

Council took some steps toward funding a comprehensive BRT and pedestrian realm project along Whyte Ave, but we also learned that the city will continue to make some piecemeal changes this year. Plus, The Quarters CRL isn't doing so well, and the city wants you to build the budget.

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (01:31) - Ad: GoodMorning
  • (02:12) - Whyte Avenue transit priority measures
  • (22:08) - 101 Street bus priority lanes
  • (27:32) - Army & Navy building
  • (29:56) - The Quarters CRL
  • (38:48) - Budget engagement
  • (40:37) - Close

Here are the relevant links for this episode:

Water update
Whyte Avenue transit priority measures
101 Street bus priority lanes
Army & Navy building
The Quarters CRL
Budget engagement
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Creators and Guests

Host
Mack Male
Co-Founder and CEO of Taproot Publishing Inc.
Host
Stephanie Swensrude
Stephanie is a curator and reporter at Taproot Edmonton. She attended NAIT's radio and television program and has worked at CBC, CFJC in Kamloops, and 630 CHED.

What is Speaking Municipally?

Taproot Edmonton presents a weekly discussion on key stories in municipal politics. We pay attention to City Council so you don't have to! Join us as we delve into conversations about the context surrounding decisions made at City Hall.

Mack:
The water is safe to drink. This week, we learned that the eggs at PIP are the only things that are going to be scrambled on Whyte Avenue.

Stephanie:
Plus, the quarter's CRL isn't doing so well, and the city wants you to build a budget.

Mack:
Hi, I'm Mack.

Stephanie:
I'm Stephanie.

Mack:
And we're…

Both:
Speaking Municipally.

Mack:
Welcome back to Speaking Municipally, episode 349. I suppose technically PIP is not on Whyte Avenue, but that's okay.

Stephanie:
It's the closest to what we will be discussing, so yeah.

Mack:
Absolutely, and we're gonna get into that. But first of all, the water is safe to drink. If you've turned on the faucet recently, you might have smelled that chlorine smell. It first hit me on Saturday, and I thought it was because I was in the pool in the morning, but no, it's actually spring runoff. EPCOR says this is normal. There's just more organics in the water at this time of year. I think it'll go on longer because of this snow and then warm and then snow and then warm and then snow and then warm season we seem to be having. But anyway, if you like the smell of chlorine, yay for you.

Stephanie:
.

Mack:
And if you don't, it's short-lived and you can drink the water. It's perfectly safe.

Stephanie:
We have great tap water here in Edmonton. Everyone says this.

Mack:
Yeah, it's one of the things that makes Edmonton, I think, a little special. Sunshine and really good tap water. All right. We're gonna get into the Whyte Ave stuff, but first, we have an ad for you this week.

Stephanie:
This episode is brought to you by Good Morning, one of Canada's largest mattress retailers, founded right here in Edmonton. Good Morning's flagship retail store is now open at 170th Street, Mayfield Common Shopping Center. It's the best place to see, touch, and test the best mattress collection in Edmonton, from the best-selling Douglas to the award-winning luxury Logan and Cove mattress. Staff at the store don't work on commission. There's no haggling. The price in the store is identical to the price online, and you can take home your mattress the same day. Best of all, the company's famous risk-free sleep trial, up to 365 nights, applies to in-store purchases just as it does online. Learn more at goodmorning.com. That's goodmorning.com.

Mack:
Last week, in case you missed our episode, we talked about Prioritize Whyte Avenue, which is a campaign to encourage city council to invest in infrastructure improvements and other things along the Whyte Ave corridor, and we had Andrea Donini, who's the, interim executive director of the Old Strathcona Business Association, on the show. It was a really great discussion with Andrea and we learned quite a bit. And, I see this item is connected this week, our first item, because as you pointed out in that episode, council was gonna be talking about some stuff. So, tell us the context here, Stephanie.

Stephanie:
So, the context is that I was working on my story about, you know, some Whyte Ave improvements. On Monday, March 23rd, Urban Planning Committee made some decisions. We will get into those, but I don't want to bury the lead here, because something very drastic is happening on Whyte Ave, in my opinion. As I was like finishing up my story on what happened at the committee meeting, I was looking at some transit priority measures that are already planned and happening for Whyte Avenue, and I discovered that the city is going to be pretty massively rearranging Whyte Avenue at Gateway Boulevard, Calgary Trail, and 105th Street. So, that little stretch, that, you know, it's kind of the most densely, like, the most dense commercial, you know, it's…

Mack:
It's very lively. It's the part that people…

Stephanie:
Very lively.

Mack:
Think about in their heads when you say…

Stephanie:
Exactly.

Mack:
Whyte Ave, right?

Stephanie:
Totally. So, the change that caught my eye is that the city is taking out the scramble crosswalks on Whyte Ave. I know. I was…

Mack:
I am upset about this, but just in case somebody's listening and they don't know what a scramble crosswalk is, maybe make that clear for folks.

Stephanie:
Yeah. So, at a scramble crosswalk, all the vehicles stop, allowing pedestrians to cross the intersection in any direction, including diagonally. So, it separates vehicle traffic and pedestrians entirely. The intersection goes through three phases. It's like east-west traffic, north-south traffic, pedestrians. And it makes it safe, because, pedestrians and vehicles never share the space. Whereas at a typical intersection, you know, if you are crossing and someone is turning either right or left, they have to cross, the crosswalk while you're in there. And they're like, you know, they could be waiting for a spot between pedestrians to go. However, with a scramble crosswalk, it removes that, you know, conflict point entirely. So yeah, when I saw that they were removing the scrambles, that was all the information that was on the website, and I was so shook, and I thought, "There's got to be more information here. There's got to be something else that's happening." I'm sure that just taking out the scrambles is not the whole story. So, I reached out to the city. I spoke to Shaffiat Hussain, who is the engineering project manager with transportation planning and design at the city, and yeah, my instinct was right. They're not just converting it back to a typical crosswalk and saying, "Every man for themselves." they are implementing turn restrictions. So, there will be no right turn on red at these intersections, and there will also be left turns only with an arrow. So, the only time that cars will be turning across the crosswalk while a pedestrian could potentially be in there is if they're doing a right on green. So yeah, Mack, you said you're a little upset. What are your thoughts on these changes?

Mack:
Well, first of all, just a clarification. The rationale that, the city provided to you for this change is Do they think this will make it safer? Is this about traffic flow? Why would they take the scrambles out?

Stephanie:
Yeah, it'it'it's said to be a transit priority measure, which there'a transit priority measure has two separate but related goals. One is in the name. It's to give transit the priority. And we will get more into other changes that are definitely very much a transit priority measure.-But the removal of the scrambles is simply just to speed up the buses. And, at the same time, it speeds up all the other traffic along the avenue, like private vehicle drivers as well. Combined with all of the changes that are happening, that we will get into, Hussein said the analysis from the city estimates it will reduce delays by between 30 and 50% at these intersections.

Mack:
Which depending on your goal, maybe is good. If you want to slow down traffic because it's safer, then that's maybe not a good goal. Scramble crosswalks have been, I think, a hugely successful addition to our infrastructure in Edmonton. There's a couple that are along Whyte Avenue or have been along Whyte Avenue, and there's some downtown too. So, I use one every single day here at 104th Street and Jasper Avenue. It's really fantastic. There's another one that gets used every single hockey game by 20,000…

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mack:
Plus people at 104th Avenue and 104th Street, and I don't know how you would manage that number of people in there, without that scramble crosswalk, but it's super handy to have at other times too. Just that separation of traffic flows makes you feel so much safer when you're not in a vehicle. I get that it can slow things down when you're in a vehicle. If anyone has driven down 104th Avenue at any time in the last couple of months, you've really experienced this because they've changed all of the signals so that the phases are more independent, kind of like they are in a, in a scramble crosswalk. And so that means you could end up waiting a little bit longer before it's your turn to go. But it makes such a difference for safety. And I have to imagine that the Prioritize Whyte Ave folks that we spoke to, that campaign, they were advocating for, you know, investment. They want improved transit, along the avenue. But I'm betting they did not think that what they would get is the loss of the scramble crosswalks.

Stephanie:
Yeah. I'I was trying to think of a good analogy for this, and, it was the, what came to mind is like, you've been begging your boyfriend to take you on a date for months and months, and he's like, "Okay, I'll take you on a date tonight," and you get ready, and then he takes you to McDonald's. Like, "Oh, I was asking for this, and this is what I get?" that was kind of the analogy. Yeah, I know, I, so…

Mack:
And to take that a little bit further, it's like, there's nothing wrong with McDonald's. I like McDonald's. But it's not what you were expecting, right?

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mack:
And same thing here. It's like, okay, we're getting some transit priority measures, but that's not what we were expecting.

Stephanie:
So, what you're saying really aligns with what I heard from Paths for People. I spoke to the board chair, Brandon Kwong, and he said the group is gutted to be losing the scrambles. While the new configuration does maintain the separation between vehicles and pedestrians in most instances, except for the right turn on green, the group questioned why the city would revert to traditional crosswalks in an area with high pedestrian volumes, especially because last year the city reached its highest number of traffic deaths in a decade. They, shared with me a letter that they wrote to the city opposing the changes. They said, "Even with the planned measures in place," no right on red, "we are knowingly increasing the risk of injury and death by installing traditional intersections. How can that decision be justified when we are already failing to meet our Vision Zero goals?"

Mack:
Absolutely. I mean, we are not on track for Vision Zero. We've talked about that on this show before. This seems to take us in the opposite direction. And I think the other thing that comes to mind for me here is, like I mentioned, we've had these scramble intersections now for a few years. It has taken that long for some people to learn how to use them. I mean, it's nice to say there will be no right turn on reds. But in practice, that's not gonna happen, because at every other intersection in the city, you're allowed to turn on red. People will do that. People come to the scramble intersections that we've had for years now, and they still turn right on a red light because they haven't yet learned that you can't do that in a scramble intersection. So, it's nice to say that we're gonna do that. But in practice, I'm not sure that's actually gonna make a huge difference for people. The arrow, left turn arrow is maybe a little bit better, but the right turn on red, you know, and there are some jurisdictions where you can never turn right on red. If we did that across the city, that would be a huge improvement and would, I think, really take us closer to Vision Zero. But this sort of some intersections you can't, but most you can, it's not actually probably gonna work in practice, in my estimation. What else did the group tell you?

Stephanie:
So, speaking of, like, no right on red citywide, another action from, you know, generally from pedestrian and active transportation advocacy across the city is to change all left turns to only be during arrows. So, you know, aligned with what we're seeing in this upcoming project. They, Paths for People last year analyzed the 32 traffic deaths that we had in 2025. 13 of the deaths, so nearly half, involved a left turn. That includes four motorcycle riders, three micro-mobility users, and three pedestrians, and then the rest were fellow drivers. And, Brandon said, "At an intersection like Whyte, where there are so many people moving in so many directions at so many times a day, it can be a really stressful maneuver to make as a driver who's looking out for traffic, coming in at a high speed potentially, watching for pedestrians that are constantly streaming everywhere." Now, like I said, the left turns will be only with an arrow, which will, make that safer. But some, advocacy groups are calling for all, left turns to only be with arrows to, like, avoid that, at least in the most dangerous locations and maybe even citywide.

Mack:
Yeah, absolutely. And I, the other thing I've talked about before is we should be able to use this traffic infrastructure for our broader mode shift goals. And I think if we want more people to feel comfortable and safe using active transportation modes, these left turn signals can be a key part of that. There is obviously the safety that comes from allowing, only allowing left turns when there's an arrow. But it also means we can change when the arrow appears. And I've argued before that when the temperature is minus 30, part of our extreme weather response should be that pedestrians do not have to wait for a left turn arrow to cross the street. Allow people to cross quickly. That would make that mode of transportation, safer, more enjoyable, more comfortable. You're in a warm car, you can wait an extra 30 seconds when it's minus 30 outside, right? So, I'm in favor of making infrastructure changes for safety reasons. If we could also, in the future, think about how to use them to, you know, forward some of our other goals, I think that would be pretty positive. Now, back to our other goals. What are some of the other transit priority measures that they are going to be making on Whyte Avenue? So, there's getting rid of the scramble intersections and there's the no right on red and the arrows, but there's some other stuff too, right?

Stephanie:
Yeah, definitely. So they're going to be getting rid of In this little stretch, they're gonna be getting rid of, like, the bus pulling out and then entering back into traffic. I don't know what bus pull outs? I don't know what they're called, but basically the sidewalk is going to be widened, in this little stretch anywhere there's a bus stop, and instead of pulling out, the bus is just gonna stop in the driving lane. Which means Now this is what I mean when it's a It's very much a transit priority measure. Because cars have to wait behind the bus and it's not the bus sneaking out and then going, "Oh, can I come back in please?" No. "I'm stopping and you have to wait for me." See? And then it's very much the definition of transit priority. I know people gon' be mad about this one though.

Mack:
I love this one. I experience this, in the winter every day on Jasper Avenue. So when you're heading, when you're heading west at 112th Street and Jasper Avenue, there is a bus stop. And I believe they changed this in recent years so that it is exactly like this. The bus no longer has to pull in, it just stops in traffic. If you're in the lane behind it, you've gotta wait until the bus goes, and that means the bus doesn't have to do this in and out thing. Across the street on 111th when you're going east, they don't have that. The bus has to pull in and then pull out. And I think at that stop it's probably because when you have multiple buses servicing that, stop, it's a little bit harder to do and you need some room for the buses to go. But the experience is you're waiting and the bus has to try to inch its way out or hope that someone's gonna let it in. Like, it absolutely does not give priority to the transit driver, right? And so I love this change on Whyte Avenue. I think it's very positive. It's better for pedestrians as well because now we end up with actually a bit of a wider sidewalk.

Stephanie:
Yes.

Mack:
Which is fantastic for that area of Whyte Avenue that is so full of people walking to the businesses and all of that. Makes room for bike parking, which we've talked about on this show before, actually is a positive for those businesses. People will bike there if there's a place to lock up their bike. And so these wider sidewalks make those kinds of things possible. So I'm a big fan of this as a transit priority measure. Okay, so we've got a few transit priority measures coming to Whyte Avenue. When is this happening?

Stephanie:
So, the city told me that construction could start anywhere between summer and fall of this year. They, the designs aren't finalized yet, so they're not 100% sure when and they also don't have a contractor yet, so they don't know when it's gonna be done. So big question mark. But it's looking like the last day for us all to scramble is gonna be time in the next six months or so.

Mack:
Scrambled egg party, that's what we gotta do.

Stephanie:
Ugh, I was actually thinking, I genuinely want to hold a funeral for the scrambles and, like, just walk diagonally across these. I'm so serious. Listeners, if you are interested in this, let me know and we can, like, organize a little party and it'll be fun. And eat scrambled eggs. Ew, that's Ew. I don't like that actually.

Mack:
I love scrambled eggs. Like, I'm down for this party.

Stephanie:
But, like, outside on the road with all the cars going by, it's a bit of a cursed…

Mack:
Well, why not?

Stephanie:
Way to eat scrambled eggs.

Mack:
Did council discuss the scramble crosswalks at all during this item? Like you said, they haven't picked the construction project. Like, the It sounds like they've made the decision, but it hasn't been implemented yet, which to me suggests there's time for a council motion to say, "Don't take out those scramble crosswalks."

Stephanie:
Yes. So this is, this is one of those things that I think the city kind of, like, just put on the website and was like, "We're not making an announcement about this. Let's just …" You know what I mean? Like, I don't wanna accuse anyone of, like, hiding information because they did put it on the website, but, you know, I think the They know that the active transportation community was not happy with this change.

Mack:
Right.

Stephanie:
And, I do know that the ward councillor, Michael Janz, knows about this and, is not super thrilled about it. But it just doesn't The idea that I got from Paths for People and from, you know, people at my insider sources is that it's a foregone conclusion and it's not gonna change.

Mack:
Well, that's unfortunate. Stephanie, you live in the area, right? So…

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mack:
I mean, this is gonna affect your personal experience as well, right?

Stephanie:
Yeah. So when I first saw this, when I just saw that the, they were taking out the scrambles and that, And before I talked to the city and got more information, I was, like, honestly pretty devastated because it is already so scary crossing the street in the Strathcona area. Just a few weeks ago at an intersection a few blocks away from this area without a scramble in, towards the east side, I witnessed the immediate aftermath of a pedestrian who was hit by the driver of a of a car who was turning left while she was in the crosswalk. And it was horrible.

Mack:
Yeah.

Stephanie:
Obviously.

Mack:
Yeah.

Stephanie:
Like, seeing someone hurt on the ground like that and just being, feeling so helpless, it was a really bad experience. And also, even on the side streets, on the main streets, even in the scramble intersections, like you said, people don't People still don't follow the rules in the scramble intersections. Like, it's already scary enough walking around as a pedestrian there. I was really upset about the scrambles going away. And then with, now learning more from the city, you know, they, the city and everything they do talks about benefits and trade-offs. (clears throat) And I do wonder, like, there was no way to keep the scrambles really? You couldn't have done all this other stuff and keep the scrambles? It's gonna be a big change. I also just think the scrambles are fun and they're such a charming part, and they really symbolize pedestrian priority, you know, in the, in the way that those, the bus pullouts, they symbolize the transit priority. You know, the scramble's so nice. I feel like a boss when I walk diagonally across the street.

Mack:
Absolutely.

Stephanie:
Except I have to do it alone, and then I feel really, like, shy when I'm in the middle of the street by myself. But no, it's like, it really just shows like, oh, we belong here. And, the actual safety part of, like, crossing the street and not having to have your head on a swivel looking for, someone that's gonna turn into you, it's nice that I'm not gonna have to do that. But it's just kinda sad. It's a, it's a, it's a bittersweet moment.

Mack:
If there's one thing that is absolutely true about drivers it is that they are sheep. They will follow the other driver next to them or in front of them or whatever, right? And so when you get to a scramble intersection and you're like, "Why is nobody going?" Like, "What is hap-" It causes drivers, most of them, to stop and just pay attention a little bit more, which is a good thing. Anything we can do to get drivers paying more attention is a positive. And, you know, like the thing you the instance you mentioned with the woman crossing the street is just completely avoidable, right? And I think scramble intersections are one of the tools in our toolbox to make those really terrible incidents avoidable. And so it's really a shame that we are taking those away. All right, I wanna close on this item, but just back to this council meeting that took place on March 23rd. I understand, Coun. Janz, you mentioned he's the representative for the area, made a motion, right? What did he, what did he move?

Stephanie:
Yeah, so a bunch of people ended up showing up at that meeting to talk about bus lanes, Bus Rapid Transit, public realm improvements along Whyte Avenue. And so Coun. Michael Janz made a motion directing administration to bring forward two funding packages to budget deliberations in the fall. So in the fall, they will consider funding the detailed design, infrastructure delivery, and operations of the B1 and B2 BRT routes. Those are the two that do cross over, Whyte Avenue. And then it will also consider funding simultaneous improvements to the pedestrian realm along Whyte Ave, so that includes widening sidewalks and just, getting, going away with some of the vehicle parking. And then a third part of the motion just calls for an unfunded service package to advance transit priority measures across the city. And, you know, Janz echoed what, Andrea was telling us last week. If we're going to be doing BRT down Whyte Ave, if we're going to be chopping up Whyte Ave anyway, let's do the pedestrian realm improvements around the sidewalks and around the intersections.

Mack:
Absolutely. If we're gonna do…

Stephanie:
If…

Mack:
Part of it, let's do all of it. Let's do it well.

Stephanie:
Well, and then that just brings us back to this week. What we discovered is that it's so funny to me that on Monday they were talking about let's do all the changes at the same time, no more piecemeal changes, and then the scramble, taking away the scramble and adding up the curb bulb-outs in, like, a one-off project. There you go. You can't change, you can't change that sort of thing immediately, right?

Mack:
I suppose not, although we should demand better.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mack:
All right, so we will learn more about what council thinks about this when they consider that unfunded service package alongside all of the other unfunded service packages that will come up in the fall.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mack:
It's gonna be an expensive, set of things to decide upon. Okay, while this item was being discussed, we also got an update on, north of the river 101st Street, right?

Stephanie:
Yeah, so it's, it was almost funny because, in the meeting there would be a business owner on Whyte Ave being like, "Please, we want a bus lane." And then a business owner from 101th Street downtown near Chinatown being like, "Take away our bus lane." So every second person was like, "Yay, no, yay, no." So councillors heard opposition to the dedicated bus lanes, that are running along 101th Street because, in part because, the lane replaced parking between 107th Avenue and Kingsway. So recently, last year, they extended the bus lane hours from the rush hours to all day long. So even during the lunchtime, and, you know, those daytime hours, you couldn't park in front of these stores. And that's like where Padmanati, Tan, and that record store is, that's right by, like, Victoria School, my alma mater, if I, if I, if I may. And yeah, they just came out and said, " this is hurting our business a lot and we looked at the buses and they're all empty, so, please take out the bus lane."

Mack:
I don't understand this one at all, like, the 9 is never empty. That is a very busy route. I also have never ever been able to park in front of Padmanati, like, ever. The only time I've parked in front is when I biked there. Like, I don't I don't understand where this loss of parking is coming. Like, I don't I don't believe them. I don't believe that there's a huge impact from the loss of this parking.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mack:
So this seems like typical sort of knee-jerk reaction to something that is perceived as negative. I would love to see the actual data behind the impact on those businesses. We won't 'cause that's not how this works, they'll never share that, but I just don't see any actual evidence to support the arguments that those businesses are making. So, what did council think? That's what I think, what did council think?

Stephanie:
One of the things that got brought up was that they asked, "Okay, how many parking spots are we talking about?" And it was 16. So even if all of those cars were full to capacity, which they never are…

Mack:
Never.

Stephanie:
About 80 or so customers, that would not fill up any of the restaurants along there, right? And most likely, all of those cars will have one, maybe two people in them. But, then, the restaurants and whatnot were saying, some of them were saying 60%, decrease in sales. Coun. Anne Stevenson, who is the, councillor for Ward O'Damon, where this is, taking place, she introduced a motion recommending that council direct administration to make the southbound lane a dedicated bus lane during rush hour only, so reverting back to the way it was before, and then also return with a report analyzing how this change impacts on-time performance. So, she was very clear, at least in my eyes, that this isn't a permanent reversal. It could be a re-re-reversal in the future, 'cause they wanna, you know, have a, have a, have that report back.

Mack:
I think I understand what the councillor's trying to accomplish here. Let's cool things down, give the business community what they're asking for the moment, get some more data. But it's a horrible motion, in my opinion. We did not make that decision randomly. We didn't, out of thin air, say, "We're gonna take away the parking all the time on 101st Street." There was a reason that the city brought that forward. We don't need to ask for more data to re-reverse the decision. Like, that Just seems like an incredible waste of time to me. Right? I don't, I don't understand why she would think this motion is a positive thing. I see in the reporting that Coun. Stevenson said, "I think we can support businesses while still continuing to support consistent bus movements." Yes, I agree, but that doesn't mean we have to take away the priority bus lanes. And then the other thing she said is, "I don't know if I'm seeing the gains in on-time performance for buses that would justify the loss of these parking spaces during the off-peak hours." So, maybe I am wrong, maybe there is actual data here to support that these priority bus lanes are not having the intended effect or intended impact. However, I would say, just like I question the 60% from the businesses, like, are they accounting for the seasonality of their business and the fact that this has happened in the dead of winter? I don't know. I would question whether or not we've had enough time to adequately measure the impacts to on-time performance for buses. So again, I'm not in favor of this motion. I don't think it makes sense. Council approved this though, right? Or committee approved this motion?

Stephanie:
So, this committee meeting, the councillors there, recommended it to city council, and that was a 4-1 vote. And then it'll go to the next council meeting, and that'll be not next week, but in the weeks after that.

Mack:
Council Janz, I think, was the only one who opposed it, right? What was his rationale?

Stephanie:
Basically what you were saying, and, you know, Janz is a big bus guy. He's, on the side of the bus, generally, I'd say.

Mack:
I mean, this…

Stephanie:
He's listening.

Mack:
This whole council…

Stephanie:
He'll let us know.

Mack:
Should be on the side of the bus. I mean, this is what we want to have, is having more people use transit. Okay, before we move on to a totally different topic, let's just stick with Whyte Avenue for one more minute here. You noticed something pretty interesting along Whyte Ave.

Stephanie:
Yeah, so I was I was driving in a car, telling my friend about the scramble crosswalks, and I went (gasps). And she was like, "What?" She thought that I saw someone that I, like, hated Like an ex or something. No. What I saw was scaffolding at the Army and Navy building. Something is happening! And, there's very limited info, but yeah, there's scaffolding up, and there's also, like, the rezoning application placard in a very inconvenient spot that's, like, 20 feet up in the air. I was, like, I went and, like, took a picture of it. I was so excited. But they're applying for a rezoning. This is all gonna be super, like, dry and paperwork-y but currently, one zone applies to this real heart of Whyte Ave that we were talking about, so between Gateway and 105th Street, and it's really strict to maintain the Whyte Ave that we love, so you have to build buildings right up to the sidewalk, no drive-throughs obviously, that sort of thing. So, the rezoning, if approved, would create a new area within the zone for the Army and Navy building, and then it says, "It adds the potential of a single business in the building by removing the floor area and public space maximum for the former Amy, former Army and Navy building." All, there's not much more information about this. This might not be any actual change. It might just be, like I said, very, like, bureaucracy. They have to do, like, little, ditchy, like, direct-control-zone changes to do anything. So I wouldn't say, like, "Oh my gosh, they're putting a single business in the Army and Navy." Like, I don't really know what it means, but there will The target public hearing is April 27th, so mark your calendars. You know, I'll be tuning in to see what's going on. Yeah.

Mack:
That's very exciting. I remember the last time we talked about this, I think it was last summer, there was some reporting that something was gonna happen, and you were like, "There's no chance."

Stephanie:
Yeah. Yeah, the representative for the letter investments, or leader, or the reporter for CTV was like, "Is this gonna be the last summer where, there's no action on Army and Navy?" And the guy said, "Yes." And I said, "No." But, I could've been wrong. At least there is, scaffolding and, like, plywood up around it, so we'll see.

Mack:
There's something, there's something. There's movement, okay?

Stephanie:
Yeah. Something's happening.

Mack:
Well, something hasn't really been happening down in The Quarters. So shifting gears here, back north of the river, back to downtown, or a little bit east of downtown. The Quarters CRL is one of our community revitalization projects in the City of Edmonton, and I understand Executive Committee had a look at the latest figures for that CRL. What did we hear?

Stephanie:
Yeah, so this is all based on the report. Unfortunately, executive committee is discussing it right now as we're recording, and there's actually a couple of interesting items that we'll just have to get to next week. So this report says that revenue generated from the CRL in the Quarters is not projected to cover the investment the city has made in the neighborhood. So if you're like, "What is a CRL? What is a Community Revitalization Levy?" well, it's a tool that municipalities can use to finance infrastructure developments needed to attract private development to targeted areas. We have one in the Quarters, we have one downtown, and we have one in Belvedere here in Edmonton. And the idea is that the investment that they make into, you know, new parks, infrastructure under the ground, stuff like that, it'the investment will be paid back through the property tax uplift of new developments that are attracted there. So if you wanna look somewhere where it's working really well, go downtown, because there's O'Damon Park, there's, like, underground infrastructure improvements. All of this was funded by the CRL, and now we see a ton of new developments going in around there. So far since 2012, the Quarters CRL has funded $100 million in what they call catalyst projects. That includes the Armature, which is that green street, kind of nice cobblestone-y street, upgraded drainage servicing, Kinistinaw Park, and the adaptive reuse of city-owned buildings into new art spaces. The report said that the improvements have attracted more than $450 million in private development. However, the revenues are still expected to be about $63.6 million short of covering the outstanding costs of the catalyst projects. And it also said in the report that no further capital projects can be funded through the CRL in the Quarters, understandably. So Mack, what are your thoughts on this?

Mack:
Well, I think my first thought is, no surprise here. I think many of us flagged this as the most likely outcome when city council was first discussing and first approving the downtown CRL. It was pretty plainly obvious that you had another CRL right next door that would be less successful if you approved the downtown CRL. So we had the Belvedere one first, we had the Quarters second, and then we ended up with the downtown one, or the Arena Entertainment District one third. And I think it was pretty obvious that those two things were probably gonna compete for relatively limited private investment. Like, in theory, we're gonna attract private investment from outside the city, and one of the main functions of a CRL is to consolidate investment within the city into a specific area. But it doesn't magically invent new businesses that are gonna invest, right? Like, it doesn't have money growing on trees. Like, it's coming from some other place. And so it seems unlikely that, you know, it was gonna be just as successful as the downtown one. Another thing that I think is now really obvious in retrospect is that CRLs in Alberta, which there haven't been really any new ones, but for the ones that we've had in the past, are most successful when you go into it with an ace in the hole. The Rivers District down in Calgary had the Bow Building, which for a time was the tallest tower in Calgary. You know, that beautiful crescent building. That was gonna be built, and that was what made that Rivers District CRL financially successful. Here in Edmonton, we had the arena and the Stantec Tower and the hotel. Those things were gonna get built because of this CRL, and those private developments will provide a good chunk of the tax uplift that is needed for the CRL to be successful. We did not have that in the Quarters. We had the hotel, the tiny hotel there, but that's not a big enough project to carry it. We didn't have an anchor private investment project in the Quarters. And the Quarters is a little bit different than, you know, the Fort Road one, the Belvedere one, where the city owned a lot of that land. And that one, I understand, is gonna be closer to breaking even or maybe even will be a little bit profitable. But, you know, the Quarters had all of these disadvantages, no anchor private investment project, the downtown one right next door. And, you know, that's to say nothing of all of the sort of negative things that already existed in that area that are kind of independent of whatever the city does from a CRL point of view. So it doesn't surprise me is my initial reaction to this. I will say I'm very happy and excited about many of the things that have gone into the Quarters. I think Kinistinaw Park is amazing. It's such a great amenity to have built there. We do have the LRT operating now, the Valley Line, through there and there's an at-grade station, which is fantastic. It's really unfortunate that, you know, it goes down through the tunnel and that we break the community up a little bit. I think that really is a negative for the potential success of what the Quarters could be. You know, but there's a lot of good things too. When this was first envisioned, I think the city said there would be 20,000 people living in the Quarters by 2035 or 2030, and that would have been incredible. I don't think we're anywhere close to that. So (sighs) it's really unfortunate that it's not only gonna not get us to those residential targets and that it's not gonna break even, but that we're probably gonna have to, you know, cover the investments that we've made here, you know, in other ways. So what did the city say about that? How will it address this financial gap?

Stephanie:
Yeah, so they came up with a couple of revenue projections and they were all pretty grim. And they said that after the CRL ends, the general tax revenue in the Quarters could cover the outstanding debt by 2041.

Mack:
Okay, so not as bad as we're thinking, but still not what we envisioned.

Stephanie:
Yeah, I mean, this is, this is partially a worst-case scenario. Like, it's quite sad to think that they put all of this money in and, like, there's no takers. Like, I think of the Armature, which-Like I would love to have something like the Armature in my neighborhood. I think it'd be lovely, and then you look, if, like, you look at it in Chinatown or in the Quarters, and there's just nothing around. It's just, like, acres of parking and empty lots, and there's, like, a couple of historic buildings along it. But I don't think that there's anything going on with those, and it's, like, it's, like, quite sad, and it's just, it is, like, a really wicked problem. I don't know. I don't know what can be done about it. You're so I really appreciate all of the context that you gave because, I was in high school when these were being, originally approved. And I think that the Quarters has such a particularly hard time. It's almost, like, so deep in the hole with the social issues and the really unfortunate, homelessness and mental health and addictions issues that it's just so hard to pull out of that hole, and, like, a pretty sidewalk isn't going to do that.

Mack:
And the other thing about attracting private investment is just that it's not like there's a lack of options for land in downtown, in other parts of the city that are nearby that are perhaps more attractive for other reasons. I think the Quarters CRL could have made a lot of sense if we didn't have the Downtown CRL at the same time or if we're looking ahead into the future. Like, maybe if the CRL there had started five years from now when we've built up, you know, as you mentioned, around O'Dayman Park, some of these other downtown parking lots are gone, you know, there's less land available right in the core. Perhaps being, immediately adjacent becomes a little bit more appealing. So, maybe we'll get there, but it's unfortunate that things have gone kinda off the rails, on this CRL from where we all envisioned and hoped that it was going to be. All right, well, anything else we should know about this Quarters CRL?

Stephanie:
Yeah, so like I said, council's Executive Committee is talking about this right now. So, after this recording, I'm gonna go and watch that meeting, and we can, if anything comes out of it, we'll update you. I don't know if there will be or if there can be anything new. I mean, it's just an update. There was some talk last year around the time that they were extending the Downtown CRL to do the VanPark deal. Apparently, they were also talking about potentially extending the Quarters CRL. So, maybe there will be a motion out of that. Maybe, I don't know. So yeah, we'll update you on that and all the other interesting stuff that's happening at Executive Committee next week as well because there's no council next week, so perfect opportunity.

Mack:
Sounds good. Well, maybe the CRLs will come up in the fall in the context of the budget, and, we've been talking about the four-year budget coming for a while now. But the city is starting to do some consultation related to the budget.

Stephanie:
Yeah. I saw the headlines this week of, "Andrew Knack wants to hear from you."

Mack:
Yeah.

Stephanie:
The City of Edmonton has launched three ways to get involved in the 2027 to, 2030 budget ahead of the deliberations in the fall. So, yeah, there's three things. There's a, there's a mock budget balancing tool, so you have to, you know, increase taxes or decrease taxes, and then as a result increase or decrease funding to services, and then you can, I think you can actually submit it, and they'll get, like, your input. Who knows how much they will, take that into consideration. And then there's also a survey going on where you can highlight your top priorities in social services, construction things, user fees, all of that good stuff. But then also there's going to be drop-in sessions throughout the month of April in all 12 wards held at schools, rec centers, community halls, et cetera, and I'm pretty sure, at least from my understanding, the ward councillor and Andrew Knack are gonna be there.

Mack:
Amazing.

Stephanie:
So you'll get to bend their ear and say, "Give me some funding for blah."

Mack:
Well, I think the engagement, exercise is really important. It's gonna be a significant part of this big budget project that, they're gonna be debating in the fall, so I'm glad to see that is starting early, and they'll have lots of time to collect that information. You can learn more about that if you subscribe to The Pulse. It'll be in your inbox already if you're listening to this. We've got Your Turn, which is our Friday public engagement feature. It's got all the details on how to get your input shared on the budget. And then, we'll follow up on this, and I'm sure, the city at some point will share the results of all of this input, and we'll be able to take a look at what Edmontonians prioritize and how that compares to what councillors ultimately decide upon in November and December. Well, Stephanie, it's a sad one for scramble intersections. But there's other priority measures coming, so we'll have to wait and see whether those, turn out to be a positive.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mack:
And then we'll plan that party. I'm down for some scrambled eggs on the street.

Stephanie:
Okay.

Mack:
Let's do it.

Stephanie:
Ooh. Oh, my God. I just keep thinking maybe we'll do it during the summer and, you know, when, like, sometimes it's hot enough to fry an egg on the ground.

Mack:
Oh, yeah.

Stephanie:
Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. I don't No.

Mack:
Stay tuned for the Speaking Municipally scrambled egg party on Whyte Avenue.

Stephanie:
And we can invite Troy. Aw, that'd be so fun.

Mack:
He would, he would make it a party, for sure.

Stephanie:
Yeah.

Mack:
That'll be in the summer. We'll be back next week with another episode. Until then, I'm Mack.

Stephanie:
I'm Stephanie.

Mack:
And we're…

Both:
Speaking Municipally.