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Join me while I learn HTMX and talk at you about it
Twitter: @htmxlabs
So I am joined today, by Lazarus, a PHP developer who got in touch with me, about a new HTMX themed site that he's building. So welcome to the show.
Lazarus (Guest):Of course. Yep. Thank you for having me.
Lazarus (Host):No. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk. So before we get into the site, what's your sort of background with HTMX and your and web like, web development in general?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. So, I'm primarily a PHP and Laravel developer now. I have my own company, of 1 or 2, depending on kind of how you count it. But I've been around a while, work a bunch of different jobs in kind of different industries before I sort of started, you know, going all in on Laravel.
Lazarus (Host):Interesting. So like what what sort of industries?
Lazarus (Guest):Well, I worked, at a big medical software company, right out of college, and this was, like, a big 5,000 person company. But then I worked as a legislative aid, so, you know, not programming at all. Kind of had caught the politics bug.
Lazarus (Host):Oh, funny. So not, you know, nothing to do with software and, and development?
Lazarus (Guest):No, no. Just a, a staffer, like at the state house in Massachusetts. Yeah. I mean, I was I was working there and, started building stuff on the web on my own, sort of for the job, sort of just to make my life easier.
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. So like little online tools and stuff like that?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. I mean, I was kind of I was involved in the sort of community stuff, so I built, this, like, community event scraper. You know, scraping stuff is always fun, and it feels like magic sometimes when you can kinda, like, pull that altogether. And I did some calendar scheduling tools. And then, like, just to keep track of all the stuff that was happening, you know, in the office that was there.
Lazarus (Guest):I built some note taking and contact management stuff, and that actually ended up, you know, turning into after I left that kind of its own project.
Lazarus (Host):Interesting. So that's kind of an interesting job. Yeah.
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, I was having a lot of fun, you know, doing web programming stuff, kind of on the side, and I started to think about, you know, going back to it professionally. And I found a company that was building tools for legislators. So, you know, that worked out really nicely.
Lazarus (Host):Okay. Yeah. It's like a really smooth transition.
Lazarus (Guest):Exactly. And, you know, in some of the ways that has been my niche, you know, like, I I've I've kind of, taken that what I've done. And for the last 10 or, I don't know, dozen years or whatever it's been since then, I do a lot of stuff kind of involving legislators, and elected officials now.
Lazarus (Host):Interesting. So the sort of time you spent as a non, you know, non programming job kind of set the path for the rest of your programming career?
Lazarus (Guest):Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's kind of really a superpower when if you as a developer or with sort of the knowledge that you have as a developer, if you go into an industry that doesn't see a lot of other developers going into it, you know, if you actually work in that industry, you'll see. You you are forced to use those tools, that they use and then sort of these ancient tools. And and I think it kinda really sparks a lot of ideas, a lot of the really best ideas.
Lazarus (Guest):A lot of profitable ideas, sort of come from the creativity and opportunity that you have if you're sort of a a traditional non dev environment and you bring that development mindset, and those skills into it, you know, I think I think wherever you end up working, it's kind of a a really positive thing. You know, and you find, like, people basically in the rest of the world outside of the development world, for the most part are using spreadsheets, to keep track of everything.
Lazarus (Host):That's funny. Yeah. No. I mean, I've said the same thing. It's really true though.
Lazarus (Host):I mean, spreadsheets are they're fine for so many things, but I feel like they're also a sign of an opportunity, you know, at that business, or in that industry if everybody's using it.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. Definitely. I mean, spreadsheets are great. You know, I'm like, I'm not trying to, like, downplay how good spreadsheets are because I use them all the time for stuff too, especially now that you can, like, share them. You know, they have, like, these Google Doc spreadsheets where it's like you have a single one and everybody's working on it.
Lazarus (Guest):And it used to be like you're emailing, you know, some spreadsheet around or you've got some shared server and you download your copy. But, yeah, I mean, they're they're very good, but they do you hit a limit at some point, and they start to get really messy. So, like, if you're the person whose job it is to track that stuff all down and, you know, make sense of it and use these spreadsheets. Like, what an advantage, you know, you have as a developer to be able to kind of build your own tools.
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. Definitely.
Lazarus (Guest):So yeah. I mean, I built, I built legislative tools for a small company, that was in Boston. But, yeah, I got laid off pretty suddenly. And that was kind of a real jolt.
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. That's that sucks.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I think developers usually know, like, there's other options if you get laid off. Most people feel like pretty secure. But, you know, it can be I would say it can be really scary to be laid off. I had just had my first kid
Lazarus (Host):Oh, man.
Lazarus (Guest):A couple months before that. So, and, you know, just to, like, make an additional little bit of, like, fear came into it. I I remember I had an offer at the time I the day I was laid off, we had, like, a couple days before that, my wife and I had put in an offer on a house.
Lazarus (Host):Oh, man. That's definitely scary.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. It was. But, you know, it ended up so, you know, being laid off, like, it ended up being, I would say, one of the best things, that ever happened to me. And I think this is not sort of an unheard of situation, when people get time from being laid off. Sometimes that can be really good.
Lazarus (Guest):But, basically, I had a few months of severance pay, and then I had a few months more of unemployment coverage. And during those months, I just kind of made some decisions. You know, number 1, that I'm gonna learn Laravel. Wow. And number 2, that I'm gonna start my own company.
Lazarus (Host):Okay. So you just took that time to just, like, learn Laravel forwards and backwards?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. I mean, I thought about doing it for, you know, a bunch of years. Like, I was working on PHP projects, so it made sense, but I just, like, I didn't trust. You know, I'm used to kinda building my own stuff and, like, you get this fear, I think, with frameworks where you're like, can this do what I need it to do? What if I reach a point where the framework doesn't have it?
Lazarus (Guest):Right? And so if that happens, you know, am I just screwed because I'm I've invest I've gone so deep, the framework can't do it, that means I can't do it. And I just never really I was scared of that. And I I shouldn't have been. Laravel can do whatever you need to do.
Lazarus (Guest):And then if you need to just go straight PHP and fill in the back, like, fill in your own stuff, you can totally do that. So I was working for a small company. They didn't have a lot, and it's just really hard to justify, taking that time to go deep and do experiments and do that kinda like deep learning you need, to learn something like Laravel.
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. I mean, that's just like what a good use of time. You know?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. I mean, it paid off right away too. Like, one of my first clients, maybe even my first one of my first clients was my old boss. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Lazarus (Guest):No. I mean, he hired me back for, more money and more freedom. So, you know, I I count that as
Lazarus (Host):a win. He found out it's not always that easy to lay off devs as they think it's gonna be.
Lazarus (Guest):No. I mean, there's like an institutional knowledge that can be really hard to replace. But, you know, I mean, ultimately, there are a lot of smart developers, so I don't feel like it's like I'm not I don't I'm not someone who thinks, oh, no one can ever lay me off. It's like Yeah. People can figure out the stuff that I figured out, especially, like, I'm trying to make it simple and stuff.
Lazarus (Guest):So Right. You know, you can always be replaced. Like, I don't want anyone to think they can't be replaced. But, you know, anyway, I mean, that's just kind of a long way to say that I've been running my own web development company using Laravel for about 10 years now. I work with clients.
Lazarus (Guest):I have built my own products that I now sell directly to customers, you know, legislative customers, other ones.
Lazarus (Host):Interesting. That's great. So, I mean the site that you're setting up now.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. So the site is called hypecp.com. And the big picture for it is sort of right in the name. Right? So hype is for hypermedia.
Lazarus (Host):Okay.
Lazarus (Guest):And the CP, as you know, most people who've used, the terminal will recognize CP is for copy and paste.
Lazarus (Host):Yep. Okay. Gotcha. So hypermedia, hypecp, copy, paste.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. And that's really the whole of it. I mean, at least for now. You know, I've been really getting into building things, with h t m x, and embracing HTML. And it's sort of I can't really stress enough, how much it's changed my sort of day to day, development and my day to day work.
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, really, it's like, you know, now when I go into do a project, it's like I just throw this one single CDN up at the top of my project, and it doesn't matter how old. It might be brand new. It might be from 2,000 4. And I'm I'm building these really, you know, fancy things, and I'm building them in exactly the same way, you know, regardless of which project it's part of. It's like I put this thing at the top.
Lazarus (Guest):I'm building with h t m x. Yeah. I'm sort of, you know, just kind of learning those individual pieces and putting attributes in and stuff like that. And it's just kind of really easy to incorporate in lots of different ways, regardless of what my tech stack is.
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. No. I mean, I've said it on this podcast many times, but that's really my experience too especially with these kind of legacy systems. The fact that h t m x is pretty much compatible with, you know, any other back end, makes it really just kinda easy to incorporate anywhere.
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, but one of the things that I still struggle with and the reason I'm kind of, you know, the reason I'm starting this Hype CP, site is one of the things I struggle with even this past year using HTMLX is kind of sorting out some of the different attributes, what they do, how to use them, you know. I mean
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. I mean, there's there's a lot of attributes.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. And they give you a lot of power to work with. But honestly, it's hard to keep track of them sometimes. It's hard to always remember the syntax.
Lazarus (Host):Right. I mean, it's basically a language of its own. You know, these libraries, you just have to get used to it over time.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. So what I think is true, but what I wish there was and that I, you know, the the reason for this, there I wish there was a site I could go to and, you know, find all the attributes in one place and just see, a working example on that.
Lazarus (Host):Yep. I mean, that makes
Lazarus (Guest):sense. Yeah. And, like and, you know, don't get me wrong. Like, the HTML site is the, like, the docs and stuff. The actual HTML site is really good, and it does have some examples.
Lazarus (Guest):And it it has actually much more than that, you know, which is great. It has, like, the in-depth knowledge. It's got the essays. It's got, you know, like I said, some examples. But, it's more of like a reference site and and kind of I feel like that's sort of the deep learning site where you sort of you you learn the theory and you you see some stuff, but, they just they have to cover a lot.
Lazarus (Guest):You know, they have to do more. I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna recreate the HTML docs. You know, they did a great job. I use it all the time, because the pages are simple.
Lazarus (Guest):They've got, you know, some some very basic stuff. I think of Hype CP as a little bit of extra, like, show. You know? If we could have a show and tell. The show part, which is just like, these are examples.
Lazarus (Guest):They are working right now. Like, you don't have to, you know, do anything different to, you know, to change things. You can just go there and you can find any attribute you want to and just, you know, see it working right there in front of you before you and then just copy and paste it, you know?
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. Although so you just said that this is something you want to build, so it doesn't exist right now?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. No. I mean, I have a lot of it, planned, you know, in my head. But yeah. No.
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, this is something it's not built yet. It's really just in the early phases. I have a lot of the concept and the layout and, you know, just some of the big picture stuff in my head.
Lazarus (Host):Okay. So people are not gonna be able to just check it out for themselves after this episode.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. Well, I I did put up, kind of a landing page for it. I'm been hoping to get some feedback. You know, I think one of the main reasons that I I sort of reached out and wanted to talk on the podcast, you know, my plan is basically to build it entirely in public, and have people kind of follow along. And, you know, the journey of building something, I always find that fascinating.
Lazarus (Guest):And my hope is that people will also find it fascinating and and kind of follow even offer suggestions along the way. And, you know, if I can set it up right, hopefully people can even kind of contribute to it themselves.
Lazarus (Host):Interesting. I mean so I will say it does sound kinda similar to a project I've been working on. But you said it's kind of mostly copy and paste examples. And I'm trying to picture, like, what does it look like in your head right now? Like, if you had to kind of take a snapshot and try to paint a picture as you see it right now, what does it look like?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. So let me think for a second. As I see it right now it's basically a single page. But I mean, it's like a single huge page.
Lazarus (Host):What do you mean huge?
Lazarus (Guest):Well, one of the things about HTMLX and one of the reasons that I first got excited about it was just how much you can put on a page at once. Right? I mean, it with just raw HTML, you can put like hundreds and hundreds of pages of text into the browser, and the browser just does not care. Right. The browser doesn't get, it doesn't freeze.
Lazarus (Guest):It doesn't it just prints it and moves on. And and HTMLX was kind of unique in these JavaScript libraries, because when you include HTMLX into the project, it basically renders it exactly the same as it renders HTML. So even like Alpine and Livewire and some of these other lightweight ones, you know, Vue is sort of lightweight. They they don't necessarily try to take over your whole project in the way that Next and React do. But they still, can't handle that amount of content.
Lazarus (Guest):You know what I mean?
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. No. I mean, I've had the same experience and I think it's because it's not building its own virtual DOM. Right?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. Exactly. I mean, HTMLX, it doesn't need to have the whole DOM converted into JavaScript objects and hydrated or rehydrated and and all that jazz. So it's just fast, efficient, and basically in the same way that HTML is. And this goes for processing the request.
Lazarus (Guest):So all these examples, you know, on the page, I wanna make them live, and they're all gonna work. Like, they can process their own request, update the DOM. And so this site, you know, that has all this stuff on it should be just like one huge page, and I want it to kind of be a showcase, like a demonstration of the what I think of is, you know, one of the power the power of HTML, that it's really tapping into the power of HTML and the fact that the browsers are so good at this. So I think, you know, honestly, it's, I almost hesitate to use the word, but it's like a it's a flex. You know?
Lazarus (Guest):Like, here is something. This page, this hype c p is something you literally cannot do, with any other JavaScript front end framework. You know? That's like Yeah. It could not display this amount of information.
Lazarus (Guest):It would freeze. It you'd have, like, this, you know, just a pause at the you know, when you when the page first loads and it would be loading things in the background. And so we're talking like yeah. I don't know how many examples are gonna be yet. We're we'll just have to see how it goes.
Lazarus (Guest):You know, maybe I'm maybe I'm exaggerating how many I'll be able to get in there because it's just a matter of time and stuff like that. But, you know, let's say there's, like, 500 live working examples all on the same page all at once, and it's all lightning fast. You know? I mean, that's that's the sort of flex. That's the idea of it.
Lazarus (Host):Alright. So so you've got hundreds of live examples. I mean, it doesn't it sounds like it maybe has potential to get a little bit unwieldy, like, with that much info at once.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. No. I mean, it it definitely could be. I mean, that's gonna be part of the big experiment. Right?
Lazarus (Guest):Like, it's a challenge. I'm gonna have to figure out sort of a reasonable navigation system and ways to get what you want. I think, like, users are not exactly used to, you know, browsing the web where you come across a page where there's that much content. Maybe, you know, if there's a lot of people I think there's a certain group of people who are used to a lot of information on the page and really appreciate it. So I do think there's a contingent out there.
Lazarus (Guest):Maybe there's a, you know, maybe there's a chance that the reason people on the web the expectation is that there's not a lot of data. Maybe that's because they're the frameworks that are most common, kind of just can't do it. You know?
Lazarus (Host):Okay. So it's like less that users don't like it than that their sort of SPA sites just couldn't do it. That's kinda that's a funny idea.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. I mean, I don't you know, this is just, I'm just thinking of it now, but, I mean, people can deal with big pages of data. Like, I mean, I know I certainly can, but I don't think I'm alone in that. Like, all these hacks and all these workarounds for the sake of the virtual DOM, like infinite scrolling, pagination. Like, they're definitely necessary sometimes.
Lazarus (Guest):Like, you're not you don't want to see a full database of stuff all the time. Right. But the amount of times that they're not necessary, but they're used anyway, like, they're not always necessary. Right? Like pagination and you've got a 100 items total and your pet you have to page through 10 pages and you can't search any of them.
Lazarus (Guest):You know, I just like I mean, it's annoying sometimes. Right? Like, just show me the data that I wanna see. Like, just
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. No. I get it. I get it.
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, like, I love using, you know, command f. Right? Like it's so much faster than the the page might give you a little search bar or something like that and you can type and find something, but, like, who knows where that search bar is going, what it has indexed, where it's gonna take you. So, like, I don't wanna deal with any of that. Like, this, you know, Hype CP is gonna be just one gigantic page, hundreds of live examples, you know, a short description of each one, and then, like, code samples that you can just one click, you know, boom.
Lazarus (Guest):Like, they'll have a little a little icon for, like, copy. You know, or it'll say copy. And then you click it, copies to your your clipboard, you paste it into your projects.
Lazarus (Host):Wow. Okay. That makes sense. So you've got this one giant page. It's still fast.
Lazarus (Host):People are command effing their way through it around it, clicking examples, and just like copy paste
Lazarus (Guest):in your browser. Exactly. Exactly.
Lazarus (Host):Wow. I mean I would definitely use it. And you mentioned that people would be able to potentially contribute. So is this gonna be like an open source repo and you'll kind of manage the poll request for it?
Lazarus (Guest):Yes. So I'm still working that out. I have never really been entirely comfortable with the sort of GitHub open source pull requests set up and the issues tab and the pull request tab. I don't know. So and I just open source is just I love open source.
Lazarus (Guest):I use everything all the time. Open source, I love it, but I've just never really been a contributor. Maybe this is just my own laziness. You know, but I want people like me who haven't gotten deep in that to be able to contribute to it.
Lazarus (Host):Yeah.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. I mean, I just I've never really used those fully, you know, and and when I've had to work on big projects and do pull request management and approvals, it's just not very fun for me, you know?
Lazarus (Host):Got it. So so you may just build this one on your own without using that sort of open source.
Lazarus (Guest):Well okay. So no. Like, it's not that I wanted I want I do want peep to let people contribute. Like, that's part of you know, the goal is to make this a collaborative project in some ways. Like, this is gonna be my project, you know, my vision, that kind of thing.
Lazarus (Guest):But, like, I like the idea of a kind of community place where people can contribute. So, you know, basically, what I'm thinking is, like, people submit. There's gonna be a form on the the Hype CP site, and they submit through a form these sort of one off examples. And then I can review and, like, disapprove or approve them, modify them, edit them, you know, whatever I want. Okay.
Lazarus (Host):So well, this is like so you're doing, like, your own little mini pull requests?
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, I hope not. I I guess, like but I feel like it's not really even that complicated. Like, they don't need to know it's they don't need to know any of the code of the sites. You I don't want to do any pull requests where they pull in all this extra code. All they need to know is how to make a little HTML snippet using HTML tags and attributes.
Lazarus (Guest):That's it. No other tools, nothing else necessary, no GitHub accounts, no, like, plus and minus lines of code, no making sure that everything compiles. Like, I just look at it and decide, oh, is this good? This is a good little snippet that people might like. Okay.
Lazarus (Guest):Good. Then it it goes up and for people who are submitting, there's just absolutely nothing to figure out.
Lazarus (Host):Okay. So they just like, you want to make the process as easy as possible.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. No, exactly. I mean, I've never contributed anything to any open source project, and it's a bit of a shame, you know, in my mind. It's one of my, you know, one of my goals that I do hope to to get through. But but, I mean, if it were as easy as just having an idea and trying to typing it into a form on a site, you know, then I probably would have done it.
Lazarus (Guest):And that's what I'm sort of hoping that people will do, and I just wanna make it easy for them.
Lazarus (Host):Nice. That makes sense.
Lazarus (Guest):And, you know, I mean, also, like, I'll give them credit. Like, I I I'll give them, like, public credit. So, you know, sometimes it's kind of gets lost, you know, who did what on a big open source project. And I think there's there's, an opportunity here. You know, here's what I sort of imagine.
Lazarus (Guest):It's like we've got this page of examples, and I've made the most of them. But every time we get and, like, I approve a submission, I'll also put a little, you know, submitted by, you know, some name, Twitter handle, whatever. And and then maybe some of the examples, like I build an example, have variations. And so they they can have a button on the site and come to an example and there's a they go you know, add a variation. And somebody comes along, they see some cool way to slightly modify my example Yeah.
Lazarus (Guest):Or just make it better. You know, my examples are not the the be all, end all. So they find a way to make it better. They submit it, and it gets linked to the example that I put. And then, you know, then you've got so along with all this this huge list of examples, you've got these variations too.
Lazarus (Host):Interesting. Yeah. So that I mean, that almost sounds like that's cool. That almost sounds like what you'd see on Stack Overflow where sometimes, like, you know, the best code snippet is, like, several comments down. Right?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I I guess. I, I hadn't really thought of it like that, but I think you're right. Like, everyone has their own way of coding stuff, and you would see sometimes somebody adding a little extra flare, a little extra detail in the comments on Stack Overflow.
Lazarus (Guest):But, yeah, I mean, I think that makes sight I think that makes sense. You know, I would want them to sort of be able to just throw their own stuff into the pool, and then I can organize it, showcase it. You know? I mean, that's that's really the big idea of Hype CP. Very cool.
Lazarus (Host):I mean, that actually sounds very fun.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. I mean, I hope so. Like people have fun in a lot of different ways, but you know, this is my kind of fun at least.
Lazarus (Host):Yeah. Well, so can I say one thing? Have you have you heard this show very much before?
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. Definitely. No. I mean, I really enjoy it. I I I would say, at this point that I've heard almost every episode.
Lazarus (Host):Okay. Wow. Nice.
Lazarus (Guest):And nice job on the podcast, by the way.
Lazarus (Host):Well, thank you very much. I I mean, I appreciate that. But I mean
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah.
Lazarus (Host):Just a few weeks ago, like, I announced something called htmxlabs.com. Right? Do you remember that episode? Yeah. Definitely.
Lazarus (Host):So I mean I know people sort of come to ideas in different ways and everyone has their own path and their own take on stuff, but I mean your vision and your description for hype CP it sounds a lot like the way I've been thinking of building inspired by the HTML Labs episode and site?
Lazarus (Guest):Well, I mean, it is the HTML Labs site.
Lazarus (Host):I'm sorry. I'm just, I'm not quite following.
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, hype c p, like, that's just hypecp.com. That's just the new name for htmxlabs.com. That's the new name for the site.
Lazarus (Host):Okay. But I mean the the h t m x labs is my site.
Lazarus (Guest):Yeah. And so is hype cp. Right? It's your site. You just decided to change the name.
Lazarus (Host):I'm just like I'm sorry. I'm just I'm actually I'm very confused right now. I have HTMX Labs. You have Hype CP, but you're saying they're the same site.
Lazarus (Guest):I'm saying that HTMLX Labs is turning into Hype CP, and yes, that they are the same site and that they're both mine. Okay. And that they're both yours. You decided to rebrand HTML Labs into Hype CP, and and that's why we're here now to sort of announce that change in the name and kind of, like, go a little bit in-depth on the project.
Lazarus (Host):Okay. I just I'm not sure what you're talking about. I mean, today, this is the first time I'm hearing about Hype CP.
Lazarus (Guest):Well, I mean, not really. So, like, you've actually been talking about it for, like, 30 minutes. Like, Hype CP is your project and your idea, and it's your site.
Lazarus (Host):No. I mean, this is your idea. You you were presenting it.
Lazarus (Guest):Yes. Okay. It's my idea, but I am you.
Lazarus (Host):What do you, like, what do you mean?
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, I am literally you. Like, we are the same person. I mean, like, same name, same story, same background, same headphones, like same shirts, like we are literally the same person.
Lazarus (Host):I'm sorry, you've lost me. We are definitely not the same person. Like I'm talking here, you're there. Right?
Lazarus (Guest):I mean, like, like, trying to figure out how to describe this, but, like, take a look at your desk at at my desk. Take a look at your desk. Right? Yeah. I'm I see my desk.
Lazarus (Guest):So you'll see on your desk, there's a a RODE mic. You've got a Simpsons calendar. Right? You have a mug with some green matcha tea, exactly the same as I do. Right?
Lazarus (Guest):Same mug.
Lazarus (Host):Okay. Yeah. I that's just I'm sorry. This is really, really weird right now.
Lazarus (Guest):Oh, I mean, it's definitely weird, but I promise, like, I am you and you are me. So okay. Here. Watch. You have that black hat on.
Lazarus (Guest):Right?
Lazarus (Host):Yeah.
Lazarus (Guest):So watch this. Watch this. Oh my god. What the fuck? Oh my god.
Lazarus (Guest):What the
Lazarus (Host):hello?