Multithreaded Income Podcast

Selling Digital Products Online | Multithreaded Income Episode 8 with Margaret Reffell.

Being a web developer is just the start of opening multiple other threads of income that you can capitalize on. You're probably already creating other digital products in your process that can be sold on Amazon, Etsy, etc. And as a software engineer, you also have a high income that can be invested in other passive income channels.

Margaret's Etsy Store:
Create a Shopify Store: A No-code Setup Guide for Store Owners & Freelancers:

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Creators & Guests

Kevin Griffin
♥ Family. Microsoft MVP. Consultant/Trainer focused on #dotnet #aspnetcore #web #azure. VP at @dotnetfdn @revconf Mastodon: - He/Him
Margaret Reffell
Web Developer | Tools and Automation for your Online Programs & Courses | Novice Vanlifer 🚐 Hairless cat owner

What is Multithreaded Income Podcast?

In the "Multithreaded Income Podcast," host Kevin Griffin navigates the nuanced landscape of generating multiple income streams as a technologist. Aimed at professionals who wish to diversify their revenue while maintaining a focus on technology, this podcast dives deep into unconventional strategies, untapped opportunities, and actionable advice.

Kevin Griffin: Welcome back to the show.


I am joined by my friend, Margaret Rafel.

How are you today, Margaret?

Margaret Reffell: I'm good, Kevin.

Thanks for having me.


Kevin Griffin: Yeah,

I'm so glad to have you.

, so listeners to the show already know

Our mission is to talk to folks out

there that are implementing what we

call multi threaded income processes.

And having known you for a while, you have

a lot of threads that are currently going

on, uh, which we'll get into, but I think

first things first, Margaret, can you talk

to our listeners about your origin story,

how you got started in, uh, technology

and how you got to where you are today?

Margaret Reffell: Yeah, for sure.

So I started about, oh man, every time

I say how long I started, it's longer.

So I was forgetting how long it's

Kevin Griffin: It's only

been a couple of years.

Margaret Reffell: Right.

It's only been a couple of years.

Um, so I started probably,

oh, I don't know.

I want to say like 12 plus years ago.

I started in front end development.

So I've been a front end developer

for the last 12 plus years.

Um, started kind of self taught

tinkering around on my own and gradually

started to learn different things.

platforms over time.

Uh, and then as I learned more platforms,

I started to specialize in the stuff

that was popular at the time, which

was WordPress and then eventually

Shopify and then started to get a

little bit more niche after that.

And then, um, started teaching web

development at the local college as well.

And then during that time, as I

worked with some more clients,

I saw how I could potentially

expand my library of resources.

And, um, Get some income

in some different ways.

And some of that was online.

And then I sort of went offline

too, into the, the wonderful and

tumultuous world of real estate to,

uh, play my hand there as well too.

So it's definitely, I've had my hand

in a few different things, but my

core business is still web development

and I still make the majority

of my income through consulting.

Kevin Griffin: Let's build

off of that for a minute.

So you have a lot of different

plates spinning at the same time.

So let's, uh, let's talk one by one.

you have your consulting, tell us a little

bit about what type of consulting you do

Margaret Reffell: Yeah.

So my core audience has always been

like solopreneurs and small businesses.

So they've relied a lot on,

I mean, WordPress was my

bread and butter for so long.

And then once Shopify came on the scene,

everybody needed help with Shopify.

So that was an amazing.

Sort of avenue to grow into, and

I totally saw the need there.

In the last, I would say like

five, five to six years, there's

been a huge move for people going

on to the online education space.

And especially when 2020 hit with COVID,

everybody wanted to bring Their business

online, whether it was normally brick

and mortar, they wanted to move it

into Shopify or they were some sort of

online learning, like a fitness coach.

I had a client who was like a Pilates

teacher and moved all of her stuff

online and was just thriving since then.

So I was always doing

sort of online commerce.

As well as online courses, but 2020,

it really blew up because everybody

needed to take everything online.

Online courses became a huge thing.

And then there was a huge boom for Shopify

with everyone needing to bring their

brick and mortar businesses online too.

So that's sort of how

it grew in that arena.

So right now I've really dug

into the specialization of.

Small business owners who run online

courses and from that, it kind of

spiders out into like, well, they

need a shop component and then they

need like major system overhaul.

So there's like a lot of interconnected

systems and at the center of those.

is mostly folks who want to

run their online courses.

Kevin Griffin: and that's, uh, and

that's mostly non technical folks, right?

So you're like the Pilates teacher

isn't, uh, isn't a technical person.

Margaret Reffell: Yeah.

So it tends to be, at least from what

I've attracted a lot of people in like

the fitness and online wellness space.

So it's people who saw technology as an

opportunity to bring their stuff online,

but really had no understanding of it.

So they had to have someone come

on board to, to show them the ropes

and set things up for them for sure.

Kevin Griffin: Do you mind talking a

little bit about how you found some

of those initial customers, like

Shopify, that's a big business.

So I don't know if I wouldn't

know how to go find, say, a Ply's

teacher that's looking for help.

How do you find those type of customers?

Margaret Reffell: Yeah.

So it's all, I mean, I've been really

lucky in that as soon as I started

doing web development, I completely

immersed myself in the community.

So I like took, even though I was

self taught, I took local courses.

I volunteered at bootcamps as soon as I,

as soon as I learned enough to be able

to sort of pass on that information,

um, volunteered at bootcamps, got

myself on like any kind of educational

boards and really immersed myself in.

The online community, um, that you

and I are part of too, and as well

as the in person community also.

So I've never, every client I've

ever got has been from a referral.

I've never gone out and actively

looked for like requests for

proposals and things like that.

And I know that that's like some people's

way is just, they get on LinkedIn,

they've got a ton of, um, they've got a

ton of patients and they have a ton of

resources to sort of Comb through requests

for proposals and find stuff that way.

I can't stand doing

that stuff, truthfully.

So I try to immerse myself in the

places that really interest me and see

how I can help those folks as much as

I can, um, for free and through like

educational and Uh, like workshops

and stuff like that, and just being,

being a part of, um, of educating.

And then, uh, they eventually find

me or they refer me through someone

else who had maybe taken a course

or something like that as well.

And then also I have, uh, friends

in the business as well too.

And then if they can't take on a project,

they'll sort of pass it over to me.

So I think it was really

about just like building up

community and then a reputation.

of quality.

So if you're working with colleagues and

you have a reputation of like, she'll

get it done for you and she'll follow

through and she'll meet the deliverables

and the deadlines and the budget.

Um, that's hugely valuable

because to be honest, most web

developers don't meet all of those

Kevin Griffin: I, uh, more times

than not, I'll have someone come

to me and be like, I just need you

to build a simple website for me.

Even my own wife will, she'll come

and say, would you redo my website?

And I'll say no, not because the

consumer facing tools and services,

uh, have just gotten so good.

I sent my wife to Squarespace,

said, go to Squarespace.

They will do 99.

9 percent of what you need.

If she was setting up a storefront,

it's like Shopify is, does

exactly what it's supposed to do.

very easily.

You might need that initial

help just getting started.

You might need help with optimization,

but the common person can go in there

and kind of understand what's going on.

whereas everything I do is very special.

Specialty work, we're designing workflows

from the ground up, but that also

comes with fairly sizable price tags.

And it's not for most folks.

Like most folks need like Shopify.

I would use Shopify.

I don't want to build an e commerce system

because I've built e commerce systems.

They're complicated and there's lots

of bells and whistles and Shopify

just does such a great job with it.

Margaret Reffell: Yeah, for sure.

And I think that's a great point too.

Cause that's always when someone comes

to me, one of my first lines of defense,

it's like, do you have, a teenage

daughter, or do you have a nephew?

Do you have someone who you

can just task this with?

Because I'm telling you, they will

get you 90 percent of the way there.

You don't need to spend thousands

of dollars on a web developer

to get a Shopify up and running.

Like, yeah, if you have like a son or

daughter in high school, they can do this.

They can knock this out in a weekend

and then like, come to me when you

need the specialization of scaling.

And it's good because They're

really appreciative that you

didn't just take them for all

their worth and take their money.

And then they always come

back when they do need you.

Or if they have a friend

who's more complicated,

they'll refer you as well too.

So yeah, I a hundred

percent agree for sure.

Kevin Griffin: So you said you have a

course and it's a Shopify course, right?

Margaret Reffell: I do.

So kind of just building off what you were

saying too, like because it's so easy for

users to jump right in and build a shop.

I would say.

I mean, Shopify tells you, you

can do it in like 15 minutes,

give yourself a couple hours.

Like there's no way, like if you're

using it for the first time, yes.

Can you get, technically you can

probably get it up and running

in 15 minutes, but let's be real.

Like you need a few hours

to, to get it done, but it is

accessible to a lot of people.

Many people get super frustrated.

So I just wanted to build like a step by

step process of here's how to get your

shop running Basically, with like three

to five products, maybe two variations.

And that's, this is the thing.

This is if you're handling your own

inventory, this is, so it's not meant to

be the DIY solution is not necessarily

meant to be like a large scale.

I got to hook it up to a warehouse

and figure out all the logistics.

It's I make my own t shirts.

I make two different

designs and I need them.

I need a website for them.

Like that's, that was what it was

geared towards when I made it.

So I made a pretty, uh, pretty

simple get started, um, get started

on Skillshare using Shopify.

So if you have Skillshare, it's free.

And if you don't have Skillshare, I

think you get 30 days for free anyways.

So I will send you the

Kevin Griffin: Go pick it up.

We'll, uh, we'll drop a

link in the show notes too.

So everyone who's interested in

Shopify could just go learn about

it and go set up their own Shopify.

And then the best case is if

they go through the course,

they still have questions.

They just come to you for consulting

and the, you're already a trusted

person in, in the space because

of the course, um, you're building

that authority as a Shopify expert,

um, which helps tremendously.

I'm sure.

Margaret Reffell: yeah, exactly.

And it has, it's crazy because working

with, working with Shopify, I've sort

of, and I know we're going to get

into this a little bit later, but

I've started to dip my toes in Amazon

a little bit because everyone who's

like, well, I'm selling on Shopify.

Should I also sell on Amazon?

And Amazon is like, it's such a

beast, but I've learned so much

like working inside Shopify.

Dipping my toes in Amazon, like

the world of logistics is, can get

quite complicated quite quickly.


Kevin Griffin: I have a friend from

high school who goes on Facebook

and he says, Come talk to me.

I'll get you a set up on Amazon.

You'll make 400, 000 a day and he makes

these big promises and I'm smelling scam.

I'm pretty sure this is what the Amway

people went through 10 years ago.

Margaret Reffell: Yeah.

It's like the new multi level marketing.

Then they'll try to sell you a course to

my course on how to get rich on Amazon.


Kevin Griffin: so in addition to your

consulting, your online courses, on

Etsy of all places.

Margaret Reffell: Yeah.

So what, how that sort of came

about is I'm not really, I'm

not really much of an Etsy user.

And as every time I thought about

Etsy, it only occurred to me that

it was like, you would go and get

like a knitted tea cozy, maybe

Kevin Griffin: Yeah, it's do dads

like personalized do dads is what I.

Margaret Reffell: crafty, yeah, crafty

sort of online marketplace, but it's grown

like crazy when I started looking into

like, there's so much stuff you can get

in now and Etsy is such a huge marketplace

for digital downloads, which I found out.

Um, so in the interest of.

Putting my stuff onto like a marketplace

where other people could find it.

Um, I wanted to give Etsy a try and

I also at this around the same time,

I started getting clients actually,

I've always had clients ask me, we

get to the end of creating a website,

whether it's WordPress or Shopify and

inevitably at the end of a website builds.

It's okay.

What do I do for terms and conditions?

What do I do for privacy policy?

What do I do for disclaimer,

building a course?

What do I do for online course

community guidelines and rules?

And before it was like, I

don't know, talk to a lawyer.

And I just kept sending people off, which

really didn't seem like a reasonable.

thing to do right when you just

finished people's websites because

it was one of the last things.

Uh, so I, in conjunction with my lawyer,

we created, um, terms and conditions,

like a standard template, terms and

conditions, privacy policy, disclaimer,

um, Guidelines for online communities and

a few other templates that are on Etsy.

So they're digital

downloads available on Etsy.

You download them, replace the

information, replace like the

company information with your

own, and then you can just paste

it straight onto your website.

So they're updated about every six months.

So I just did an update maybe

two to three months ago.

So those are all available as well.

And they're pretty reasonable.

I mean, hiring a lawyer will be, would

be like a couple thousand bucks for that.

And I, you can get the whole

template for like under a hundred

bucks, like all the templates.

So that has been great because I can

sell them on Etsy, but then also when

I have clients, I can say like, I can.

It's an added bonus for them.

So yes, you have, you get all this

stuff with me developing your website,

but then also you get the added

value of this free package of all of

your terms and conditions and stuff.

So I always try to think of like,

how can I add value to my current

clients, but then also like make

some, make some money on the side.

So I thought about putting them on my

own website, but the reality is, is

just like having them on a marketplace

just brings its own traffic and it's

so much easier because I don't have to.

Worry about continuously

like SEOing my website.

Kevin Griffin: it's one of those

things you mentioned a moment ago, I

would never imagine finding on Etsy

I recall, folks a while ago selling

like code templates on similar sites.

And there's ways you can just do a

lot of the work up front and you can

sell it over and over and over again.

I think contracts, templates are a

great idea, especially by my biggest

recommendation to people doing, say,

consulting contracts, statements

of work, uh, go find a template.

And take that to a lawyer because a

lawyer will only, uh, what do I say,

take it to a lawyer and make it legal for

your, your state, your country, wherever

you're residing, and that will cost

you a fraction of the price as the full

contract would, um, when I did with my

lawyer, a lawyer was going to charge a

couple, like you said, a couple thousand

dollars to do the, from the scratch

contract, but I came with the contract.

They just fixed some of the stuff that

wasn't legal in my jurisdiction, and

I think it only cost me four or $500.

All said and done.

And yeah.

Helps tremendously.

I think that's a great idea.

Margaret Reffell: Yeah, I think it's

been super helpful for some people.

It's funny because we're, I'm starting

to see even, so I'm from, I'm from

Canada, which I don't think I mentioned

at the beginning, but, uh, we are

starting to see the commoditization

of these things even more on.

Like a larger scale in Canada,

we have a few startups.

One of them is called Willful Wills.

So it's basically like that.

It's a templated will website where

you normally would have to go to your

lawyer and get like a will and get

notarized and everything as well.

But this startup has made these legally

binding wills that you can basically

fill out all your information online.

It grabs that, pops it into a pretty

basic template that at the very least

you have, you can bring to a lawyer

and they can make some adjustments, but

they don't have to make it from scratch.

Kevin Griffin: I love that idea.

And well, with wills, if you, it ever gets

tested and it's wrong, you'll be dead.

So it's not a big deal.

So not, not really your problem.

Um, so let's, you have a lot

of different streams, a lot of

different threats of income.

Um, was there a trigger or a point in

your life where you realized that this

was the direction you needed to go having

all these different threads or was it

something that just happened naturally?

Margaret Reffell: I think it

happened naturally to a certain

degree when I stopped trying to

figure out what I should be doing.

And I'll clarify, cause I think that

just to make more sense, there's so

many things online that it's like,

we were just talking about it too.


To get to make 80, 000 a month, you

got to sell this on Amazon or do this.

But what the only, even if I tried

those things before, the only stuff

that really stuck was like, listened, I

listened to what my customers didn't have.

I didn't have accessible to them

and just created that myself.

So the templates are, I think

are a perfect example of that.

So I didn't go out to just seek to make.

These pre done templates, but I did

see an opportunity of something that

continuously was coming up again

and again and again as a pain point,

and then made a solution that I

could duplicate over and over again.

And I think that's where people look

for these sort of quick fixes and

these like, Oh, build a, build an

Amazon store, build a course or build

this and make millions of dollars.

But I think there, there's some people

maybe looking a little bit too hard

and the fact that there's a lot of

stuff right in front of you that people

are just lacking that you can listen

to your customers, create for them,

uh, cause chances are they're not the

only ones who are looking and be able

to create that over and over again.

Kevin Griffin: Let's talk

for a moment about just life

and time effort management.

Uh, it seems like you have a lot

going on between your consulting

and your courses and keeping your

Etsy store up every now and then.

Um, how do you manage your time and

your efforts and how do you decide

where you're going to spend your effort?

Margaret Reffell: Yeah,

that's a good question.

Um, yeah.


Um, I'm usually always working, which

sounds awful, but I think that when

you are always looking for plans,

like of how to improve and where you

need to go, it doesn't feel like work.

So a lot of my time is spent like

planning and working and figuring

out like what are the best things.

What are the best solutions like

for myself, but also for clients?

So the short answer is yes, a

lot of my time is spent working.

Even if I'm not in front of the computer,

if I'm out on a walk, it's like, Oh, I

should set this up this way, which would

allow me to do this and this and this.

Uh, but I do enjoy that stuff.

I find when I try to

detach too much from it.

and force myself to not force myself to

not work and completely separate from it.

Um, it's kind of boring and I

actually really like work and

the planning that goes into it.

Uh, that said, I do love other stuff too.

So I like love traveling.

cycling, rollerblading.

Uh, I have, I have a new kitten

and she takes up a lot of work.

So I have two, I have two cats.

One of them's a, one of

them's just a kitten.

So I'm sort of managing her as much as

it sounds like, Oh, you have a kitten.

It's not a big deal.

She's a lot of work.

And I always forget

how much work there is.

Uh, so managing that.

In with just like everything

that's happening in the world right

now, just continuing trying to

like, recenter myself, understand

what's important and then finding

my energy in like, how can I be.

of service is, I think that's

super helpful and really

grounding for me, I find.

Kevin Griffin: Now we've talked

about the things that are working.

Uh, Now, I'm sure there's probably

a short list of things that haven't

quite worked the way that you wanted

them to, uh, do you have a list of

failures or dropped initiatives or

things you should drop that you haven't?

Margaret Reffell: Yeah.

So I think for the dropped initiatives,

I did mention my Shopify course.

Now I had made that it's been just over a

year that I made it dropped initiatives.

It probably needs to be updated.

So I should update that.

And then also I enjoyed making it.

But it's the only course I've ever made

and I am so involved with like creating

online courses for other people and

setting up their environments that

I've really dropped the ball in making

anything more like that for myself.

So I think in dropped initiatives, I would

really like to commit to whether it's on

Skillshare, just like churning out more.

Courses or on my own platform

churning out more, but creating more

educational content, putting myself

out there more is definitely something

that falls by the wayside when I'm

kind of focused on serving clients.

So that's something for sure.

Kevin Griffin: I think we could get a

group of us who have built content and

courses and we could just do a like

four to six hour conversation about.

All the parts that go into it, because

I, I know when I used to be an outsider,

it's like, oh, no, doing a video course.

That sounds so easy.

Like, you just sit down and hit record.

And I think people really appreciate

how much time and effort goes into

building a, uh, a video course.


I've built a couple, I've seen

yours and it's not the type of thing

you can just sit down and do you,

you have to considerable amount

of planning and then execution.

And then it's like a garden because things

are going to change and you have to go

back and weed the garden rerecord videos.

And, oh, it's a lot of effort.

Margaret Reffell: And I totally blame the

gurus because for so long it was like,

here's your ticket to passive income.

Create an online course.

There's nothing passive about

creating an online course.

It's constantly active

and it's so much work.


Kevin Griffin: The one course, so I

have, I have a handful of course out

there, the two I care about, I really

care about one and I, I stopped tending

that garden a couple months ago and it's

slowly like it, it pays its dividends.

It, it keeps up with itself, but it was

a lot of effort dealing with the students

coming through, having questions and

trying to answer things and then you get

the bat, like the one bad review out of.

The 50 good reviews and

it just ruins your day.

Oh, I don't, it, when you start

doing new course, let's chat.

I'll, I'll remind us of this conversation.

Margaret Reffell: Yeah, for sure.

It's like an emotional roller coaster too.

Kevin Griffin: Well, let's

talk about the future.

So you kind of talk about,

you would love to update your

courses and do more courses.

Is there anything else that you're not

doing now that you would love to maybe

devote some time to in the future?

Margaret Reffell: That's a good question.

I think definitely more online

learning content as well.

And then as far as changes for the future,

I don't know that there's necessarily

a lot that I'd want to do more of.

I definitely want to do more travel

and things like that for sure.

So I think on the personal level,

there is on a professional level.

Um, I know we chatted a little

bit about having like a little

bit of, uh, investments in real

estate and things like that.

But part of me, it's tough right now,

really wants to scale down on that stuff.

So, so I think there's

changes in the future.

There's parts of me that really

have to look at the full portfolio.

And I mean, portfolio in a sense of

like, Real estate, what I'm doing for

work, the Etsy stuff, like really get a

look at the whole portfolio and just be

ruthless about if something's not working.

I think I definitely get, like many

people, emotionally invested because

you put so much work into things, but

Um, really getting better at taking

a step back and making objective,

objective decisions for future of

myself and the future of the company,

even if those aren't popular decisions.

So I think getting better at that,

getting a bit more objective, um,

and not as emotionally involved

in business decisions for sure.

Kevin Griffin: There was a great

piece of advice from, uh, one of

our friends, uh, Brett Fisher.

He, he said he doesn't start an initiative

or continue initiative unless he

sees himself doing it for five years.


I say that as a person, I say

this as a person who has taken on

a lot of different initiatives.

This is initiative right now.

I didn't think about it that way.

Like, I don't think five years

out, I think, all right, this

is good for six months and we'll

see where we are in six months.

I've never thought about

anything five years out.

It's a good thought lesson, I think,

for, for approaching anything.

Margaret Reffell: I think so too.

I think it brings up some.

Good thoughts that I've never

really considered as well.

Like you, it's always like,

okay, what about like the

sick next six to eight months?

And I think that was also reinforced

to a certain degree during COVID

because I had this, we all did, I'm

sure had this sort of, well, we don't

know what's going to happen next.

So like, let's just, let's just, we

got to kind of figure it out as we go.

Uh, and I think COVID kind of, It

ruined, at least for myself, any

kind of, like, plausible predictions.

Plausible, like, secure

predictions for the long term.

And kind of put me more

into a short term mentality.

But I think it's a good idea

to reconsider the long term.


Kevin Griffin: So Margaret, there's

someone out there listening.

They say, I want to be just like you.

I want to be a consultant.

I want to have my online courses.

I want to set something up on Etsy.

Do you have any advice for that person who

wants to be like you when they grow up?

Margaret Reffell: Be

careful what you wish for.

I would say.

Uh, listen to your customers.

Listen to your clients.

There's a lot of like shiny objects that

you're going to want to chase and very

few of those end up being profitable

without listening to a customer base.

That's already there.

Your clients are a customer base.

We're already there.

So really looking.

Towards them, towards the, for the

things that you create can create

to benefit them because chances are

if they need them, they're not going

to be the only ones who need them.

The other thing too is that I know

it's so cliche to say like niche

down, but I w I would change the

word niche for specialization.

So creating a specialization in

a certain area, whether that's,

if you're a web developer and

you want to dig into something.

Dig into certain softwares like Shopify.

You want to be an expert in Shopify.

If you want to get more into

systems like right now, I'm

looking at bigger scale systems.

So I'm pursuing certifications for

Salesforce and entreport because

I'm seeing that web development

can be commoditized earlier on,

which is what we talked about.

Like you can get it, any

teenager can set up a.

can set up a Shopify store.

Anyone generally can set up a WordPress

site, but to get yourself into a place

where you're invaluable and you're usable

almost at like an enterprise level.

So getting in and specializing in software

is that you will always be needed.

Like Certifications in

Salesforce will always be needed.

So specialization and listening

to your client's needs.

Kevin Griffin: That is some great advice

and you really do hit on a, a big subject.

The businesses like to pay

and hire people that will

essentially make them more money.

So you don't want, you don't want

your developer to just be a, a

cost line item on, on a budget.

You want that person to come in and

hopefully bring in two, three, 10

X the amount of money that, that

they're, uh, that they're worth.

I know Salesforce people.

People that easily make, for lack of a

better term, they make bank because they

are going in and they know the systems so

well that they can just add insane value.

Um, and I'm sure with Spotify

or Shopify, it's the same thing.

You have someone who just needs a little

bit help optimizing their Shopify store,

whatever rate you're charging, they're

getting back tenfold, uh, because

they have an optimized store now.

Oh, that is some great advice.

All right, Margaret, do you have

anything in promote outside your,

well, drop links to your online Etsy

templates, but is there anything else?

Margaret Reffell: I think

that was pretty much it.

Just those two.

And then, but yeah, if anyone has any

questions, feel free to reach out.

I'll leave you with my socials as well.

So I'll leave a link there, but

basically if you search my name

anywhere, I'm the only one.

So it's probably me.

Kevin Griffin: Sounds good, Margaret.

Thank you so much for hanging out

with us today and thank you to all the

listeners for hanging out with us on this

episode and we'll see you all next time.

Margaret Reffell: Yeah.

Thanks for having me, Kevin.