Two friends – Dave Gerhardt (@davegerhardt) and Casey Ford (@fordpr) – share their love of golf in podcast form as they talk shop & chat with those who have made golf their long game.
00:00.00
dave_gerhardt
Hey everybody long game podcast is back case we just wrapped up a great interview with John Sherman what did you what did you think what did you think of hanging out with John.
00:13.67
Casey Ford
He's Great. His books. Awesome. The 4 foundations of cough you don't have it I've been putting sticky notes into it like I'm taking a medical exam or something. Um great. He's He's a different kind of coach where he's not a swing Coach. He's not going to get into the technical stuff. It's more of the. Course Management expectations management a lot of stuff that myself and a lot of amateur golfers can use So great. Great interview. What do you think.
00:36.44
dave_gerhardt
I thought it was awesome. I've been a fan of John's for a while I read his book last year I've been following him on Twitter as you and me have made more progress with this show I've just started messing around on Twitter and I occasionally will click on someone's profile and I'll see that they follow me for whatever reason. And I've been dming John for I don't know a couple months now and then the other day or a couple weeks ago I was like let's let's see if he'll come on the pot and he said yes, which is awesome. He gave us an hour really interesting stuff just talking about his approach to to golf. And strategy and just has me excited about this podcast about who we might be able to get on and other great conversations. So ah, after that we're gonna we're going to make pickics for this week for the waste management and then we're going to play our interview with John but real quick. What's your reaction to this Wyndham Clark three day shortened you. You hate it. It's a big week. A let's just say this now big weekend for live golf. Nope no football, no pj tour on a Sunday niman 59 Sergio Rom this a big weekend live golf is coming are you are you mad about this ending to this tournament and what what else could it have done. It is what it is.
01:48.14
Casey Ford
Yeah I'll try to give my take on how things have transpired here with the tour of the last four days without the um, the cloud over this that I had a lot of bets that did not include Wyndham Clark and I was very eager for a forced round conclusion of this event. So that's on me um, aside from that I think it's a joke as as as far as much as I can say this right now on a Monday morning um not being at pebble beach not having any clue about course management and how much of course how much water of course can take and how dangerous it is to have. Players out there in thirty forty mile hour wing gus which I think they just called the british open every year but I think it's a joke and you couldn't have made a worse scenario for the tour where they have this Sunday with nothing on. The week before the super bowl is for the pro bowl. But if you're watching that you're not listening to this podcast. So um, but I think it's ridiculous like this is a signature event. It's one of their worse as fans were being told this is one of the top. What 8 non major tournaments of the year you've got one of the best fields I've ever had there. I think if players made us think about it. They'd be playing right now or I don't know why you can't play on Tuesday um, but yeah I think it it couldn't have gone worse for the tour you had all these eyeballs on live um which you know they had an exciting finish and the tours just.
03:18.53
Casey Ford
Kind of sitting there saying Well'll check tomorrow tomorrow. They didn't even wait till this morning Monday they called it last night when they said they were going to check out the course was this morning. So if this is.
03:24.57
dave_gerhardt
What a feeling though everybody if you're Wyndham Clark though you you end on a high note you have the course record at pebble you you walk off with the elevated event pers get me, let's go I'll see you in Arizona boys.
03:34.91
Casey Ford
I mean Ludig is like seems like too nice of a guy to like make a stink but like he missed that eagle putt on 18 which they were saying like you know this could be for the tournament in the way they talked all weekend about like especially all Saturday like well we'll see what you posted like it seemed like it was a foregone conclusion. They weren't going to. Finish this tournament. They're already. They're already everyone involved with the whole the broadcast the tour the rules official they brought in or sorry the the guy that makes those calls for the tour they brought on the end of the day on Saturday I forget no isn't the guy live is just a disaster.
04:04.94
dave_gerhardt
Slugger white is that the guy's name or is that twenty years ago slugger white and what do you make of the what do you make of the purists who say that um it was preferred lies and so it's a sixty doesn't really move the needle.
04:16.18
Casey Ford
How But they wrote that on the on the flag for windham on the course record flag. It's It's all they gave him a flag after oh I thought it was something they wrote on the flag or something that.
04:20.68
dave_gerhardt
No, what do you mean? they wrote on the flag I saw I saw a sticker on the scorecard but I would assume that that was given out before the round. No I didn't see that you have you can look that up but I saw the thing people were talking about was on the scorecard. There's a yellow sticker.
04:34.86
Casey Ford
Oh maybe's on the score me I said.
04:38.90
dave_gerhardt
Which they didn't put that on their after the round they probably put it on before So when you're asking your group hey are we are we cleaning them and lift lifting them then you yeah so.
04:44.31
Casey Ford
Yeah, so obviously there's a for the purists out there. That's an asterisk to me. It was more and I watched almost all the Saturday not just Wyndham but he had a few but the drops these guys were getting in the rough. The free drops were insane. Insane stuff like let alone a plug obviously a plug thing on the fairway. That's course is soggy but there was some stuff on the rough. Did you see the windum one he got relief because they said there was a burrowed animal near there he was in I don't it was like a plugged ball. But also next to a burrowed animal.
05:05.68
dave_gerhardt
Well from what from casual casual water like plugged plug balls that I didn't watch it. There's a pet that's a p read move isn't it the burrowed animal. Love that.
05:22.58
Casey Ford
And I'm what like is is it visible. Can you see the and it was like ah a hole but it was nowhere near there. Ah someone else, but it wasn't plucked. It was like it was a combination ruling and you can see you can go back and look I think it was the same um, same drop where there's some issues maybe where he was stomping down the ground around there.
05:26.93
dave_gerhardt
But if it's plugged. But if it's plugged. You get a drop. Why is that a big deal now.
05:38.68
dave_gerhardt
I Heard people talking about that.
05:41.61
Casey Ford
If you if you saw that on Twitter um, yeah, ah, it just and jt you got a ah a drop or two that I thought was interesting and um yeah I'm I'm I'm sure whoever had the coerce record before which was some kind of no nameme guide to right? Some collegiic guy had the had a 61 there few years ago. But um, I'm sure that affects it I don't really care I think a sixty is a 6 I mean he made like a mile worth of putts that day so but it just it just it's hard when I mean it's funny. There are 2 54 whole golf tournaments this weekend right? 1 intentionally one unintentionally the pga tour 1 obviously that felt a lot like there was a lot left to be settled there so you're asking that like you don't know so Dave had been in a huge.
06:23.95
dave_gerhardt
Sure how how do we do? How do we do with our picks this week I have no idea.
06:35.70
Casey Ford
Ah, huge hole in our grinders tour where we pick outside the top one fifty but for the signature events. There's not um, a lot of guys there so we pick some heavy hitters this week you had over I think a $2000000 deficit this week but I'll just say you are now the the leader of this.
06:50.28
dave_gerhardt
Um, that's call.
06:52.89
Casey Ford
Right now you you won something like I have it somewhere in here but between Scotty Patrick Cantley and Jason day I think you you won this weekend about one point seven million and between Rory Max homema and Maverick Mcneely I had 140000 so
07:04.35
dave_gerhardt
Oh hey, if you're if you run sponsorships at malbon and you want to hook me up that you're welcome for that. So send me some send me some pants send me some like golf is life street where I will wear it on this pod I got you.
07:18.22
Casey Ford
So you almost have a $300000 lead on me now. So we're back to our right regular scheduler grinders everyone over the top one fifty in the world but did you get to watch this week either live or or pj.
07:33.40
dave_gerhardt
Ah, no I watched maybe 5 minutes of of both and yeah.
07:38.00
Casey Ford
Well, it's funny. It's funny that nobody on either tour knows how to take a ah drop anymore which is incredible.
07:44.25
dave_gerhardt
Ah, most people I play with I don't know how to take a drop and there's no rules. It's lawless this whole thing. This whole thing is getting out of control I will say that. Um.
07:54.53
dave_gerhardt
There's a lot of good players on live now something's got to I this just this whole thing sucks this Pj Tora's week and.
07:56.79
Casey Ford
Um, that was one of the first takeaways I had to was holy shit like there's a lot of and I mean good players versus notable players could be a discussion but that's a. Especially if you're talking about where ratings come from and casual fans. There's not a whole lot of difference.
08:14.58
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, so friend friend of the friend of the pod. My buddy Eddie who I play go with he um texts to me on on Friday and he's like or what maybe was Thursday whenever the live tournament started. He says you. He says are you downloading the Cw app like I'm loading it up for this weekend and I was like ah, whatever and then I go to my Youtube Tv and I'm sitting here on my computer and I throw on Youtube Tv on yesterday or Saturday and it's on I'm like oh baby I got this included and I flip on and um, I'm watching.
08:40.19
Casey Ford
Right? You didn't even know you have ah the C w.
08:45.49
dave_gerhardt
You posted this amazing thing on Instagram where John Rom's putting. There's just like 2 people in like bathing suits standing on this silent but it just is still hilarious to me I'm watching it and like John Rom's teeing and it's like turn I burn. There's just like house music playing in the background I'm like come on this. This is incredible.
08:59.77
Casey Ford
I I tell you the everyone's complaining about the team aspect of it because I think a lot of people got exposed to it this weekend for the first time the team aspect I mean it. It doesn't bother me I've always said like I don't understand why the olympics doesn't do the team thing where. Like the team aspect really only moves the needle for me if it's a country thing. So if you get the rider cup or you know us versus Europe or president's cup I love or the olympics which only does individual medalist wins the the gold silver bronze they don't do a team thing in the Olympics which I think they should be so I'm all for team stuff. But I don't care about it in something like this I'm not sure the players do either. But.
09:37.72
dave_gerhardt
Or like I like team if they play together like if it's 2 on 2 or 4 ball or like that's cool, but like the aggregate these 4 people are on a team and the aggregate of their score as a team win those are to me those are 4 things happening completely separately right.
09:42.52
Casey Ford
Right? Totally R cup olympics. Yeah.
09:53.45
Casey Ford
Ah, the thing that I have the biggest problem with the format which I didn't I don't know maybe people talked about it but I was shocked that it's not like it was the biggest thing for me is these guys all finish on different holes so you have this tournament that comes down to the last hole and you're looking on the scoreboard just naturally like what hole are these people On. And all they have is this thing of the top says holes remaining but the different like how are you supposed to keep track of there's a lot of people bunched in that leaderboard within a stroke like I don't know my my yoga course. Whatever like I don't know it's a par 3 versus a 5 where a guy has an opportunity to eagle this hole or that it's so hard to get kind of a context I'm where. Tournament is itself just watching casually now I didn't have the volume all the way up I was multitasking but to me that's golf like I wanted on where I can look in in a half second do the math I'm like where things are where they stand It was really hard to figure out where people are finishing in the shotgun start kind of thing. Ah.
10:42.40
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, yeah I think I was reading this in a book. Um, maybe it was in the pgl. Ah or was that yeah that that league that they all.
10:55.68
Casey Ford
The first one.
10:58.58
dave_gerhardt
The first one they almost created it was supposed to be shock on start but then like on the last day of the tournament they play the full they play the they do t times because there's a flow to ah and I didn't think of this until the book. There's a flow to a golf course right? An architect like there's ah, there's ah a a thing so I totally can relate to that. Um.
11:08.45
Casey Ford
Yeah, totally. And like fans. How do you How are the fans supposed to know where to go or the fan in this case that the 2 fans and bikinis on the beach but like how how is there supposed to how you supposed to build drama if you know if someone's finishing on one hole in the other now I don't know enough about live to know if they. Try to stack the guys close to each other near each other so they're kind of condensed but um, something I really I want to do with you really quick about lid before we get into picks. Um I have right here I just went through my wad I have a have $100 cash and I'm willing to send it to you Dave if you can answer this trivia question correctly. I need you to maybe back away a little bit because I I I trust you, you're not going to go with this but I I don't fully there are 13 live golf teams if you can name more than half I'll send you a hundred dollars let me let me I'm to give you a second I'll pull it up but do you think you could name.
11:53.30
dave_gerhardt
Let's go.
12:12.61
Casey Ford
More than 6 teen names.
12:18.37
dave_gerhardt
Let's try ready ready crushers.
12:20.51
Casey Ford
I'm Goingnna be a stickler to there's some puns and stuff go ahead all right? I'm not going to make you do the jeopardy thing where you say what is or or in this case to the golf club or whatever it is after but crushers. Ah, it's funny on this list. They all say.
12:32.28
dave_gerhardt
Crushers.
12:37.96
Casey Ford
Name and then gc for golf club and then for crushes it's says c g I'm assuming that's a another live misprint but go ahead. Are you got 1 Fip. Yep.
12:45.14
dave_gerhardt
Is that one smash cliques legion 13 high flyers.
12:59.10
Casey Ford
Um, 5 need 2 more.
13:04.96
dave_gerhardt
Um, the four aces or is it aces 4 aces four aces.
13:11.22
Casey Ford
What's your final answer. Okay, you need 1 more.
13:21.37
Casey Ford
3 2 1 I think you did it pretty good though I mean you've you've read this live book I don't know if a lot of that's in there but kudos to you.
13:23.38
dave_gerhardt
Did I say high flyers already fuck. No no, no the reason the reason I know is because I was texted I just mentioned Eddie he texted me and we were saying should we all. Rock should we get some live live hats should we pick a team and I happen to look in that guy you got to say like they kind of had the the the crushers is a skull logo. It's kind of a cool It's kind of a cool hat and so I happen to look but no, that's it 6.
13:56.80
Casey Ford
Do you think you'll ever or what? What's the first year you'll see someone wearing a live golf shirt or hat just like a team hat what? what year would that be.
14:08.28
dave_gerhardt
Um, well depends on where like ah I'm in Vermont and so I think in Vermont someone wearing a ah living up wearing a live golf hat is is is not going to happen. It's next to 0
14:19.43
Casey Ford
Let's make a pledge right now to our followers fans listeners if we ever see anyone in any live golf gear. We'll take a selfie with them and we'll we'll post it here. It's like a.
14:25.65
dave_gerhardt
I actually was thinking like how absurd it it be if I just got if I just got like the straight up like flat brimmed camo live golf hat and like that's who I was um this my buddy Dave he's in town from Vermont we go to play your place. Um're walking the live golf at no, not a specific team I'm just a fan of the league in general.
14:43.99
Casey Ford
Yeah, it's almost as weird as we talked about wearing like a manufacture hat like a callaway hat right? it's.
14:50.19
dave_gerhardt
Now which is there's some way I Thought we said that's fine. Don't don't go all fried egg on me now.
14:54.64
Casey Ford
Yeah, no, no, no I think that's fine. Um I can see why when you when you really think about it. It could be weird right? like it's just it's a it's a piece of equipment. Um I mean it's kind of gotten bigger in the golf world but specifically these live golf team stuff If you're like a.
15:03.20
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, there Yeah sure sure.
15:13.81
Casey Ford
Fan of a team because these have no affiliation to regions or I don't know except for I guess you could make the case for Rom and I don't know it's just ah like I it it. What really disappointed me most watching it was it just reaffirmed that like I'll watch any golf.
15:16.74
dave_gerhardt
Right? right? make the case.
15:32.18
Casey Ford
There's no if the pj tour is going to drag their feet on whatever I know is probably hard to play yesterday. But I'm watching anything.
15:36.97
dave_gerhardt
Um, dude I'm a sicko I'm watching I'm watching Bryson and Sergio Play a one play a 9 hole match with one club on Youtube of course of course I'm going to watch if the golf is on Tv.
15:47.78
Casey Ford
Yeah, ah, last thing on live the whole thing on the whole scuttlebutt on on social media was like these commercials are are are nothing like the pga tour like people doing side by side comparisons of recording their like a Tv and a laptop next to each other of live golf. Playing on one and then just commercials on the pga broadcast as if you couldn't just time that and record one when one was in commercial. But I think a lot of people watching the Youtube feed which it doesn't have commercials I guess or less. There was nothing but commercials what I watched on on the cw a lot a lot of them. Promos for vampire diaries and stuff like that. But yeah, okay, let's do it? Um, yeah, we're going to this week we're going to the waste management which is a notable one for a lot of reasons mostly the famed 16 s all right.
16:23.57
dave_gerhardt
Slaps as they say. Yeah, let's make picks do I have the first am I up first because I'm the hot hand right now.
16:38.66
Casey Ford
Um, have you ever been out there I've I went out once and played the course once but nothing really to report. My only thing I'll tell you is that we played I went actually on our baby Moon My wife and I she didn't We went to like some spa in that area but we went over to I went over there and played one round and it was late october.
16:41.32
dave_gerhardt
I haven't no I have not. Wow.
16:58.14
Casey Ford
They were building the entire city of the course around me and the star of the guy there was like oh they they don't give a shit There's going to be jackhammers and so it's pretty funny like I played the sixteenth. It was like a ruin of that because they were still building it an interesting time to play it very loud. But It's a very tpc course if you played 1 of those. You've kind of played a lot of them. But um, yeah I'll give you the first pick since you you won last week. So this week we actually will have to go outside the 51.
17:25.81
dave_gerhardt
All right I got a young ah he's number one eighty in the world. Um, say young young d g it's not me young Doug Doug Gim just just got a feeling like I don't know.
17:36.29
Casey Ford
Um, Doug Gim what do you know about Doug Gim tell me.
17:40.28
Casey Ford
All right.
17:42.37
dave_gerhardt
That's that's that's so I could say I like and I like him I like his name I like his whole aura 243
17:48.33
Casey Ford
All right? And what numbers is he in the world doesn't matter just over one fifty all right shut out Doug Gim um I'm gonna go I tell there is sli pickings this week and I once again, this is my downfall last week but I pulled up. Our friends at datagolf.com and doing some chorus experience work. Ah, this is such a frontrunner tournament if you look at the top 15 from last year it's like the top thirteen twelve guys in the world. So these one fifty plus guys are are gonna be hard to come up but I'm gonna go with. This might shock shock you. But I think waste management who do you think.
18:29.14
dave_gerhardt
Ah, ah, you're gonna take Joel Damon aren't you ah oh that's right.
18:30.16
Casey Ford
No I'm going Charlie Hoffman who where who rocks the waste management now he isn't play well in a while I think it a good end of the season. Um, but this is the tournament I mean he is like their ambassador right? I think he's still with him. Yeah, sure is but this is the.
18:44.59
dave_gerhardt
Um, he's 3 hundredth in the world. Wow.
18:49.32
Casey Ford
He I think he's I think it's a home a home event for him just because he's been sponsored by these people for so long I assume he's still sponsored by them. But this is also the tournament two years ago where he had a freak out. He had to take a drop and his drop land went like rolled into the water and he freaked out and he was like a.
18:53.78
dave_gerhardt
Sir.
19:06.19
Casey Ford
President of the players council or something there some in a position where you shouldn't be you know screaming at your tour and said this is why people want to go to that Saudi League um so he's got some some ah fans to win back over there this week probably a long shot up might as well I'm also going to go with my guy Peter Malnati who I took.
19:08.36
dave_gerhardt
Interesting.
19:25.22
Casey Ford
Few weeks ago. Didn't do well for me, but the stories coming out of the ssg announcement call last week were that he followed tiger on the call and golf is all about confidence. So if you're if Peter Malnati is following tiger woods on a call to all of ah the pga players association. He's got to be right and sky high so I'm going to say Peter Melnatty's going to show up this week.
19:46.70
dave_gerhardt
He's He's a really thoughtful God they they had him on no laying up a couple ah like once or twice because he's on the board last year and I was like I he he won me over so I respect that um I respect that pick where.
19:55.39
Casey Ford
Yeah, ah you get 2 picks unless you think Doug Gin is good for you and you're good with this one guy.
20:02.76
dave_gerhardt
I'll take doug gim and saath degala if you'll give me that um he he is not. He's ninth in the world right now. Um I like um I like Carson young um.
20:07.34
Casey Ford
Um, say its pretty pretty good I don't think he's one fifty plus here.
20:14.23
Casey Ford
Yeah, not yeah, not sure I almost picked him too I'm not sure he's ever played at this tournament or this course before that I could tell? yep.
20:17.58
dave_gerhardt
Just because he's on my screen right now I like Carson young no, he's he's close enough to cam young. So I like that. Um, and then I'm gonna take just feels like a Kevin Streelman type of type of weekend. You know.
20:32.87
Casey Ford
I Like that.
20:37.50
dave_gerhardt
So those are my grinders picks but I will say um I am a big saw hit fan I wish he won this tournament two years ago obviously this was a big drama in the in the Netflix series I'd love to see somebody like him get a dub this week I should be around I should have some time to watch the golf I'd love love to see.
20:41.58
Casey Ford
20:55.69
dave_gerhardt
Something you know something like that. Maybe they'll play all 72 holes this weekend. What do you got case.
20:59.79
Casey Ford
Yeah I hope so in the desert there. Ah and just to piggyback on that. Yeah, that's the best false swing episode for me season 1 when he breaks down with his parents and you just don't see professional athletes. Yeah I mean that that if that didn't win you over.
21:08.60
dave_gerhardt
Of course I got a little misty. You know it's.
21:17.83
Casey Ford
Um I think he he got a lot of fan. It shows the value of that show too How you can shine a light on these guys that people may not know as much and and the guy's dad is maybe the best character on tour we should get his dad on this podcast because he loves to talk about his son and I would love to talk to him. You got it all right? My last pick.
21:26.85
dave_gerhardt
You find you you find his Hotmail address and I'm happy to reach out.
21:37.17
Casey Ford
I'm going through a bunch of guys here. But I'm just going to throw it ah a ridiculous one I'm going to go with Zach Johnson and he he's in this field because of a career money. Exemption. You have any idea what that means. I mean I can put together what it means but did you know that even existed a career money. Exemption gets you into turn him out.
21:56.16
dave_gerhardt
I Only know it because I've been looking at this thing more like when we do this and I've heard other people talk about it. But there's just like there's all these levels of exemptions to get into these events and what a feeling man This guy's made a boatload of money playing golf. He's he's captain of the rider cup. He's like yeah.
22:07.26
Casey Ford
It's crazy.
22:14.19
dave_gerhardt
What are we doing this weekend. Sure should I play waste I'll go play waste like how nice is that I'm surprised that you picked him after you know him not getting it done for you in the in the rider cup. But maybe you're able to put that aside.
22:24.44
Casey Ford
Yeah I didn't think about that that you just said it now it brought back all sorts of bad memories. So I'm not going to change it but he's been getting a lot of shit for getting into some tournaments that maybe people think he shouldn't be in so every once in a while you'll just see Zach Johnson pop up on a leaderboard and like oh well Zach Johnson so
22:27.71
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, yeah.
22:40.70
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, yeah, all right.
22:42.77
Casey Ford
These stadium courses I feel like are g gettable. Someone can have a a big day. So I got hoffman malnoty Jack Jack Johnson you've got doug gim a friend of the program Carson young and Kevin Struman yeah
22:52.92
dave_gerhardt
Yep, you got it and scythe um and by the way before we get into this interview with John Sherman and we got to go looking at listener trends for the past couple months we we have essentially we have doubled our ah listeners every month November December January so if you're listening to this right now. Tell a friend about the long game pod. This is only the beginning send it to a friend hit follow on Spotify Apple podcasts wherever you are, but we got a great interview for you right now with John Sherman practical golf on Twitter I hope you have a great week wherever you're listening to this enjoy our conversation with John.
23:26.91
Casey Ford
And Rory, come on the pod.
dave_gerhardt
Hey, everybody welcome to the long game podcast I'm Dave Gearhart this is my co-host Casey Ford we have a special guest today I don't want to say he's my favorite author. But John he's he's he's up there. He's not ah this isn't Malcolm Gladwell this isn't a um. Ah, nasim talele. No this is what I I'm a I'm a sicko now John I lay in bed at night and I'm reading the fourth 4 foundations golf I was on a golf trip last year with a bunch of my buddies in Myrtle Beach and I'm like laying in bed at 2 in the morning I couldn't go to sleep and they're like what are you reading I'm like I'm reading this this book.
00:33.60
Casey Ford
Real quick I'll tell you Dave look look at this thing I've been walking around my house with this. My wife's like are you studying for something like some test like kind kind of kind of.
00:35.28
dave_gerhardt
But.
00:44.12
dave_gerhardt
Um, well, it's perfect because I think the motto of this podcast is a dress for the job. You want not not the not the job that you currently have so anyway John is ah John Sherman he's at practical golf on Twitter he runs a popular golf improvement site practical golf. He hosts the sweet spot podcast and he's the author of the 4 foundations of golf. He was crazy enough to write another book which we'll we'll talk about at some point oh look at that now is that early copy. What is that.
01:06.13
Jon Sherman
Yeah I've got ah my I'm starting to this doing a little studying him. Well I'm I'm looking for mistakes that I'm beating myself up. That's what that is.
01:08.95
Casey Ford
Have you been studying? yeah.
01:17.76
dave_gerhardt
All right? So we're gonna talk I want to talk about your your writing process. We do. We do a little bit more than just talk about golf here. But I've been following John for a bit crush the book last summer um casey and I start looking at this podcast hey who could we have on that's interesting. It's funny how this works I click on Twitter. Go and I see John Sherman follows me. We've traded a couple d dms over the year and I'm like yeah you know what I'm going to I'm going to reach out to John and see if he'll he'll hang out so I have an icebreaker for you John 1 of the things that Casey and I like to do on this podcast is we talk about the things that drive us nuts about golf like your average. Saturday morning round and I saw you tweeted this week or so ago you wrote one of the best traits a golfer can have is to be easy to play with something casey and I talk about all the time. So John what does that mean what does it how do you? articulate? What does it mean to be easy to play with.
02:03.35
Jon Sherman
Well I know this intimately because I wasn't easy to play with for a long time I think um I think there's a number of things that go into it but the way I like to think about it is that you know golf is an individual sport or game but it's also a shared experience which is awesome. Um, but there's also a downside to that because um, there comes a time in the round where your play is not meeting up with your expectations and you start getting frustrated and losing your temper so you know one of the things that I didn't do a great job of for a number of years was that you know I would just. Either losing my temper or talking about how poorly I was playing and nobody really wants to hear it because you know the goal of playing golf is to enjoy your time together and obviously focus on your own game. So I think one of the main trains of being easy to play with is that. You're not making it all about you and how you're playing. It's more of a shared experience and you're trying to strike up conversations and have a good time and that is easier said than done at times. But that's what immediately comes to mind.
03:10.20
Casey Ford
Do you have a nightmare for some you hear a lot of people talk about like Mount Rushmore forsomes or what's your nightmare for some of of you know, um you know cheating guy or you know slow play guy. What's your what's your nightmare.
03:21.69
Jon Sherman
So the I guess number 1 is ah the I've never played this poorly before guy. Um, there's there's always yeah exactly I know him pretty well I've been him. But yeah, the the player.
03:27.51
dave_gerhardt
Um I play I play with that guy every week John
03:36.30
Jon Sherman
That always is like you know they have a rough star and they're like oh man I've never played this bad before I'm so sorry about this and and I get it like we're you know we're embarrassed. We're a little self-conscious. It's totally normal. Um number two would be definitely the Temper guy. Um I've been around some. Really big hotheads over the years whether it's in tournaments or just recreational play and yeah, no one wants to be around someone who's slamming I've unfortunately broken a few clubs in front of people like you don't want to see that you don't want to be that golfer um, and then last would be.
04:12.60
Jon Sherman
Just taking a crazy amount of time and this this again goes back to the shared experience is that you know I don't believe there's any reason for people to have very long pre-shot routines or sit on the green and and look at it from 40 different angles before you put? um. I Prefer people to play with a little more fire under their butt. So Yeah I think the golfer that just takes forever to hit the shot and and and again I Want to be aware that people get frozen over the ball by their their their fears. But if you have a predefined process that takes forever like I. I'm not in love with that.
04:51.40
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, and Casey and I share this trait of like we're we're both the we're both the paranoid one in in the group we're like if the group is playing slow and I hate that this happens to me but I feel the burden of that like it.
05:02.19
Jon Sherman
Oh me too? Yeah, yeah, if yeah I I'm the same way like my big pet peeve in life is not respecting other people's time and.
05:05.35
dave_gerhardt
I'm like man these guys are right on our ass and I'm looking at the 3 other guys that I'm playing with I'm like do any of you see? what's happening right now and then it messes me up like.
05:18.27
Jon Sherman
I've been in some like big tournament moments where we got put on the clock and it's just like it's just burned in the back of my head and yeah I'm like that too I look at the T behind me and say like well there's people waiting like we got to get going and other people can be unaware of that at times.
05:31.43
Casey Ford
Totally I mean I have that I have this at the airport I'm like I might look. We're late for the flight I'm not cutting all these people in line because we we showed up late. You know I have it walking down the street. There's like walking the stroller like those people trying to get past this I of course have it on the golf course. It's funny. You're saying back to the nightmare force and I think we've all played with.
05:40.26
Jon Sherman
Um, ah.
05:50.95
Casey Ford
With guys that had all all 3 of those traits in one. So when you get a superpower like that on the course just the worst person to to play with so we're on the same page there.
05:59.37
dave_gerhardt
My favorite my favorite about the hothead though. Is you you never? It's always the most. It's always the guy You don't expect to be the hothead. You're like whoa that guy has a temper. Okay, that's that's wild. Yeah now. Um, there's a there's a there's a gentleman that that plays in a band.
06:08.13
Casey Ford
Yeah, your true self.
06:16.45
dave_gerhardt
Got a long. He's got long hair. He's it looks very mild mannered and they do a bunch of kids kids concerts around the town and my wife and I see them and I point him out and I say you see that guy. He's an absolute psycho on the golf course. My wife is like no way I'm like oh yeah, the the bass player over there. That's him that's him. Ah.
06:32.25
Jon Sherman
It's like all your your your deepest psychology comes out on the golf course for sure.
06:34.33
Casey Ford
Turn.
06:34.91
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, for sure. But I think you've talked about this either in Twitter or on your in in your books and everything but there's something to be like nobody is paying and this is something I've taken a long time to realize and I still realize this but like nobody cares about you. And you're like we're all focused on our own games. Can you talk about that a bit just like in your observation.
06:52.81
Jon Sherman
Yeah I I think people care when you make them care like all those examples we just gave like that's when people start paying attention to when you're becoming a distraction to their game but I would say the baseline attitude of most golfers I've played with is that. This game's difficult. It's mentally draining. It requires a lot of focus like there's a score attached to our performance every day and most of our attention is on ourselves and what we're doing and everything else is kind of like this foggy thing in the background. But again if you start throwing clubs or you're taking 3 minutes before you hit a shot. Then that fog startsing disappearing and I'm noticing what you're doing um but what I try and talk about in the 4 foundations and even my new book in a competitive context is that yeah this is mostly. I don't want to say selfish in a bad way. But this is a selfish game. It's not a team game. This is an individual game and I think what I try and do is free people up is that you know whatever you're worried about whatever you're embarrassed about others have the same moments have been through it I don't care what level you play at you made a fool out of yourself. And I think you can free yourself up when you really embrace the fact that no one is paying attention to you as much as you think they are um and you just kind of have to go about your business have fun.
08:15.62
dave_gerhardt
Are.
08:21.90
Jon Sherman
Um, and kind of accept all these outcomes. But if you add that other element where it's like oh I'm so embarrassed you know I'm playing poorly in front of this group I've never met before or they're good friends that makes it harder to perform well and like you're just adding another um, enemy against yourself so to speak.
08:38.84
dave_gerhardt
Hey case, John John said it's not a team sport. Obviously he wasn't plugged in to live Maya Koba yesterday because I was we were we were watching legion thirteen all day anyway. Ah before we get super deep in the golf stuff. Can you just can you set some context John about. Your background. You're a you're a high level competitive player I don't know if you've I feel like you're in the plus plus 2 3 ish handicap I've seen you qualified for the the us midam with ah with a cool little 68 just give some context for like. History of your game and you're playing ability now and then we're going to get into some other stuff.
09:12.90
Jon Sherman
Yeah I mean long story short I took up I got obsessed with golf when when Tiger got big when he won the masters when I was like 12 or 13 and you know I was a decent junior player I wasn't a standout. Um, probably like a 3 4 5 handicap at my best was a captain of a mediocre. High school varsity team um was kind of a mess competitively I walked onto a division 3 team in college played one tournament that I was forced. My my coach was forced to play me somehow I came in second and that was the end of my college career. So I didn't have you know my my first act of golf was that I think I had some. Good abilities and I worked hard at it but I didn't really connect all of the dots and reach my potential. Um, and then when I came back to the game. Yeah I struggled a bit my twenty s because I lived in New York city and couldn't play much but when I had children and moved. Out of the city and became you know more avid golfer and I started to unwind a lot of my mistakes and that became you know the beginning of my website practical golf. My earliest blog posts in 2015 so long story short the last decade like I've played a ton of tournaments and I've kind of. I've gotten to where i' yeah been plus one plus two handicap I've won a few club championships. At this point I've done well and a lot of you know what? I would call elite amateur events in our area and and unfortunately this year or last year I think my crowning achievement was winning the the medalist at a Us midam qualifier and getting to the big show.
10:43.25
Jon Sherman
Um, So yeah, I'm not a standout I'm not someone who had like extraordinary talent in my new book I kind of write that I fought and clawed my way to to this level of performance if you saw me play and nothing would blow you away. But I just kind of consider myself like a normal guy who was always on the outside looking in and I figured some stuff out. And I'm trying to help other people along the way.
11:02.37
dave_gerhardt
I love that love so lu luu stagner who you have a relationship with you will fall on Twitter he posted a video of your swing like in December and he he I know I I I couldn't even I can't I couldn't even stand that.
11:10.18
Jon Sherman
Well, that killed me he I wasn't paying attention to when he asked me, he's like do you mind if I do this and then I realized he was going to say it was me too and I was just like oh God I like I don't want to deal with this.
11:22.85
dave_gerhardt
But but it's so funny and I so I ah I become a little reply guy in there on Twitter and I comment. Oh I love I love this game where all the 15 s tell the plus 2 that he's an 8 in 8 you know like but um, but I I do think there there is something there in that like you. You got to learn how to score you got to learn how to play in the era of Youtube golf I was actually just texting and I have a story for you about my path in golf but I was texting with a guy who my coach who I get instruction from I sent him something on Youtube and he said stop. He said stop sending me you like and I'm the biggest. I'm ah guilty of this in the biggest way which is like in the era of Youtube Golf and Instagram and social media it is you know it's very easy to lust after like the perfect swing the perfect mechanics when what I like about the stuff that you write about? is you talk about the importance of having the right mechanics and having a fundamentally sound golf swing. But. You know the 4 foundations that you talk about are expectation management strategy practice and a sharp mental game and I think that's a cool pocket of golf that ah until I started following your stuff I didn't really have a great resource around.
12:32.56
Jon Sherman
Yeah I think there's you know there's playing skills and then there's swing skills. Um, and you know we're we're very forward on our podcast and and you know I work with Adam Younglock and our books is that.
12:47.75
Jon Sherman
A lot of people look at us like oh those guys are against technical work and all that stuff and no, we're we're I'm totally forgetting swing lessons I love it. But when I came into the golf world I thought that yeah there was nobody talking about these playing skills and I knew that if you focus too much on the swing and obsess about it like there's a. Diminishing return that happens like that actually can make you worse. Knowledge is not always a good thing with the golf swing and I just felt like all these other you know topics were being There were stuff that really good players had figured out and that they they knew about. But I think the rest of golfers just. Hadn't thought about it or they didn't focus on it so I was like well let me shed some light on these playing skills and that took me a long time to get noticed for that many years um and fortunately when the book came out and I kind of put it all together people were like oh yeah, this makes sense and I'm not the only one talking about it either I think there's other people doing it now. So yeah I think. You know, having you want to work on your swing you want to get the technical parts in a functional position at impact throughout the swing but you also need to pair that with these playing skills which are quite important to scoring as well.
13:57.23
dave_gerhardt
1 go guys.
13:59.90
Casey Ford
Talk a little bit about um and you put it first in your book and and all the chapters of the the 4 foundations is expectation management which to me is I think one of the biggest thing especially for someone newer to the game I have a lot of friends that picked up the game 3 4 five years ago and they struggle with this. Specifically and it's it's something I try to echo to them which is you know if you if you can't put in the time you shouldn't expect to to you know, be ah, an incredible golfer so talk a little bit about expectation management. How you came to that philosophy too. Sure.
14:25.48
dave_gerhardt
Wait and and let me let me add something because we we told this story on last week's pod related to the new golfer I told us I told Casey this story about how I played in tournament last summer I was I just played in the four day tournament I played like shit I didn't want to go play I signed up for this thing on Monday morning I made myself go. Didn't warm up didn't hit balls got to the first tee something I never do like 2 minutes before my tea time and I went out and made I had 6 birdies 6 bogies and I shot my first like even par round in a competitive tournament and I walked off the course that day and I'm like. do do I need to change everything that I thought about golf because I came in today with no expectations. No warm up and I just played the round of my life.
15:04.74
Jon Sherman
Yeah I think golf. It's it's so interesting to me because I've paid attention for a really long time to people how they behave on the course and. You know golf attracts a lot of people who are successful in other walks of life and then they get to golf and it's like well everything that made them successful elsewhere is not working in Golf. It's not always like well if I do x I get y it's not as straightforward I think that's what really frustrates some people but. Yeah there's there's a lot of different ways I try and help people with their expectation management because I always say that if you don't get this part of the game right? Um, you're not going to have fun. You're not going to get better. It just makes it really difficult to. Excel in this game if your expectations are not online and that could be a number of things as you mentioned it's like what beginners think you know a good golf shot looks like hell advanced players sometimes don't know what a good golf shot looks like so just trying to paint a picture with you know whether it's stats on dispersion or putting make percentages. Um, how far you should hit your driver how close to the green. You should be hitting a 7 iron when people see these things in these benchmarks for different handicap levels. They're like well wait a second I'm actually a lot better than I thought I was and with that you know your your reactions on the course are different and you have a new mindset. So I think you know one of the.
16:26.14
Jon Sherman
The best pieces of feedback I've gotten from the book over and over again is that the first section gave them a different mindset as they approach the game and they're like I'm playing better just because I'm not as hard on myself I'm having more fun and. I always say like your best golf comes when you kind of let go versus trying to force it which dave you know you mentioned that that tournament where you showed up on a Monday not expecting much you just kind of like let it happen and and you weren't you know trying to force the issue and that's that's difficult to get into that head space that that requires you know a lot of. Experience. Um, and and you never really conquer that part of the game but that's what I find fascinating about golf. It's this like constant. It never ends like I have to work on it myself. It's this constant process of matching up the inputs how much time and effort your current skill level. Versus like what you expect to get from a performance perspective and that's that equation like never gets solved completely. You have to keep working on it.
17:25.24
dave_gerhardt
How do you How do you approach something like that with like a big tournament that's been your goal like you show you know you you want to qualify for the midam you ended up winning that event your medalist in that event like how do you not? How do you take both sides of that because there's there's a balance of like. You know there's that great ah clip with ah Tiger and onica's son this year and he's like I'm so nervous and tiger was like you should be it means you care. But you can't care too much so the night before that event or that day. How do you not put so much pressure on yourself. What's the mindset you try to get in.
17:48.92
Jon Sherman
Yeah I.
17:58.78
Jon Sherman
So the 1 thing I'm trying to hammer home in this new book is experience. Competitive golf is different. It's not the same. It might look the same but you don't feel the same and the only way I was able to walk into that qualifier completely. Um. At peace with whatever was going to happen and not nervous was that I had done it a lot of times beforehand you know I've put myself through you know, a lot of qualifiers matches you know club competitions since you know 2015 so me showing up to. Ah, Usa qualifier or even ah, another big qualifier in our area. It's not that new or different for me. So my brain's not looking at this like oh what do you need to do differently It's like I've done this before I'm going to go through my process as cliched as that sound and I'm just going to do it. Um, and hopefully like the variance of my scoring works in my favor this this time but even in that round I had gotten to 5 under par through 10 holes which was not completely uncharted territory for me but I was like well shit like something. Yeah were you know.
19:03.28
dave_gerhardt
Or Were're on the border. We're on the border of black territory.
19:09.11
Jon Sherman
You know if that happened five or six years ago I don't think I would have been able like I would have like passed out and yeah and but I leaned on the experience and I'm like you know what? this is fun like this is why you've done all of this like to put yourself in this position.
19:16.20
dave_gerhardt
That's how ah, that's me right now I'm like oh my God I'm black and out right now. Yeah.
19:28.13
Jon Sherman
And it's okay to be nervous and if I blow it. That's okay, but you know this kind of different voice emerged saying like this is awesome like this is where you're meant to be like you're going to do this and it worked out that day and sometimes it doesn't work out but you need to really. Be willing to make yourself uncomfortable and learn from those experiences and have the right mindset so that again when you show up, you're like this isn't like the worst thing you could do is expect great performance in something that's new and different because you just don't have the reference point in your brain. So um. Much easier said than done I'm still not. You know I'll still show up to tournaments and get nervous like when I got to the us midam itself that was very nerveracking for me. It was a lot of anxiety I had to deal with because that was new for me I never played a national championship before I'm literally walking down the fairway next to Stuart Hagistad and the first day like he's 2 groups ahead of me and he goes on to win it and I'm like well well shit now I'm rubbing elbows with this guy like that's that's new and different.
20:30.11
dave_gerhardt
I have a question for you. This is going to be Dave Therapy um how do you get off to a better start so two years ago I started to get into competitive golf. Basically I have a similar story I lived in Boston for a long time. My wife and I and kids we moved out of the city. We moved up to Vermont. Happen to get a house right across in the golf course I take my I hadn't played golf in like 10 years I channel all of my free time and creative energy into playing golf I finally get a great instructor Dave Jankowski we had him on the podcast. He. Blew my mind because I agree with all the stuff you're saying but I do feel like there is some baseline of swing mechanics and what I learned was like oh you've been swinging at ° left your whole life and there's a lot You're not gonna be able to succeed but blah anyway, I get a little bit better I get down in the low single digits but that's just me playing with my buddies. Want to test myself get into competitive golf um start playing well I have an issue though I almost always get off to a bad start. How would you tackle changing that.
21:32.68
Jon Sherman
Well I mean first of all like you're still pretty early on in your process so you have to acknowledge that um I think 1 mistake a lot of players make if they're hitting balls before they're round they use this as kind of like a litmus test on how they're going to play that day and you know. Whether they're striking it really? well then they're like well great you know this is going to be a good day or let's say they're they're shaking a few and they're nervous or like well then they walk up to the first t with this defeatous attitude. Um I've learned to become more um, embracing of the word. Neutral um. Think there's a lot of people and in sports psychology and other walks of performance advice that use this word more often and I like it a lot for golf is that you know I do my best to step up to the first t with neutral expectations in terms of my performance of course I want to play well that's inherent like I want to play well I want to shoot. The best score possible? Um, but with that I have to be open to the fact that like yeah I might struggle out of the gate and I'm going to have to grind a bit to get back to where I want to be or maybe I can't save it. Um, so I will hammer the experience thing over and over again because it is so important.
22:43.83
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, yeah.
22:46.15
Jon Sherman
Um, but I think you know a lot of players can get flustered by how they warm up and use that as kind of like a litmus test on how they're going to play that day I don't know if you make that mistake but I've seen that a lot. Um and also.
22:57.93
dave_gerhardt
Actually 1 1 thing you you talk about in your book. That's that's been a game changer for me is um, just being being more intentional about those range sessions before around I now try to go which is super smart I want to say this because people might be listening.
23:05.73
Jon Sherman
Sure.
23:12.73
dave_gerhardt
I would just kind of go through the bag and I'd be like all right? This is what we got today right? and we've all had the range sessions where you hit it great and you play terrible and the other way around. But I like the thing that you talk about where you basically go and you kind of play you play the first couple holes or the play the front 9 or as many holes as you can get to there on the range and so then I show up on the first teen I've kind of hit. Hit a variation of my clubs and not putting so much pressure on how things are coming off I I really enjoyed that piece of advice.
23:39.95
Jon Sherman
Yeah I mean there's there's a lot of stuff you can do first of all like if you need to do homework on the course beforehand like kind of making decisions on shots as many shots as possible off the tee. So you're just kind of like reciting the game plan when you tee off um, having a familiar warm up routine when you get to the course. You know there's there's a lot of stuff that I do It's not superstitious, but it's just like it's just little things I would do on the day of a tournament. Um that I'm like again signaling to my brain like you've done this before this is nothing new or different like you're just going to do the same thing you've done over and over again. So that could be like the way you warm up whether it's a dynamic warmup how you go through your bag getting the speed of the greens. Um, whatever it is that you can hang your hat on. But I think the best opportunity you can give yourself to have a good start. Is to again being like comfortable in that moment. Um, and that doesn't guarantee that you're going to like be 2 under par through 6 holes. It just gives you an opportunity to access your skill more often because you're not like coming out of the gate I think a lot of more inexperienced players are like. If I don't get a good start on the first 5 holes and like I'm not going to do it today and that becomes like this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy whereas like I've had some of my best outcomes after shaky starts and then you know somewhere on the back 9 I got hot.
25:03.27
Jon Sherman
You just don't know what's going to happen and you have to be open to possibilities.
25:08.56
Casey Ford
Totally and do you find that you're reading reading the book I texted Dave this ah earlier. It was funny how much I I felt I related to kind of your your origin story with this stuff where. Say captain of a mediocre varsity golf team struggled to enjoy the game because of kind of an obsession with scores and I abruptly quit for college and and came back later with a different mindset. But um I find that I I always play much better. In match play situations and I think a lot of that has to do with just I'm not focused on my score like I can afford to have a 7 or 8 out there and I'm the day's not over my whatever ideal round I had in my head. Um I don't have to worry about that. So do you find that your your. Ah, foundations of golf are just the principles you play with change a little bit or with with match play versus stroke play.
26:00.50
Jon Sherman
I I try not to make it make a differentiation internally to what format I'm playing. Um I think there's players who can do that. But I think they're more rare. Um I think you know someone like Tiger comes to mind where he's just like.
26:15.22
dave_gerhardt
This right? Yeah, it's.
26:15.93
Casey Ford
Yeah.
26:16.37
Jon Sherman
I'm going to pummel you today and there's nothing you could do about it like I've seen some players I've come across who have like that moxie and that confidence like and maybe I have it like relative to certain like areas like if I'm playing in a more controlled environment. But I'm not going to step up. Like when I got to the us man I'm on my go to my caddie I'm like there's some dudes here who are teeing it up saying like good luck playing me later this week like I'm going to make it in match play and when you play me like good luck to you like do you know how much confidence and skill that requires um so I think a better attitude for the more normal player. Is can I just say everything's the same like I think golf is literally a series of independent events whether that's a stroke play tournament a match against your friends like I try and view if I have a t shot on the eighteenth hole or the first hole or an eight footer on the fifth hole that could bring me up 3 or. I'm down to like I'm literally just going to try and do the same exact thing every time and if I get really good at doing that same exact thing every time I do not care what the scenario is I like my chances versus if I think there's a special button I have to press if we're like. Oh we're playing it to you know a team Nasa we're pressing. It's like okay time to make some birdies. It's like that button doesn't exist for me like I can't start making like 3 birdies in a row and if I try to like then I'm going to start making some bad decisions. Strategically you know mentally I'm not going to be in the right mindset and I think most golfers would be best served.
27:52.12
Jon Sherman
That way. Um, because again I don't think most of us have the ability to just all of a sudden like manifest these shots or this mindset. Um, and I think it's kind of like you're doing more harm than good thinking. You need to constantly change based on the scenario.
28:07.47
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, any any good round that I've had that. That's what I'm getting addicted to in golf now I Love the meditative state of literally one shot when you're locked in and it's so hard to do.
28:17.69
Jon Sherman
It is.
28:20.00
dave_gerhardt
Even for us amateur golfers like I think this is what's 1 thing. That's so wildly underrated about people who don't think golf is a sport and you watch these guys untoward like the mental grind of Thursday through Sunday is is nuts and when I'm in it. Ah you almost black out for four and a half hours because you're like every shot. You're just focused. You're going through the process and there is something. There's something that happens in the chemical. There's something that happens with your brain you know and all the great players have talked about this. Um I read that book be a player ah by. Vision 54 I forget the name what the names of those those women are but basically like there's a mental connection that you create when you visualize the shot and if I don't go through that process for for 2 seconds and I just have a brain fart I'm like oh my gosh I just I just blew that ball out of bounds and I know exactly why it wasn't a mechanical thing like i. Didn't go through my process for for 1 minute so it's good to hear you say that because it's something that everybody can just rely on and just as an outlet. This is a fun game. This is ah a hobby in activity I love the meditative part of like forcing yourself to focus one shot at a time.
29:25.89
Jon Sherman
Yeah I think it's funny I was just writing about this and the new book is that it's it's kind of sad to admit this but you know you're you're pretty active on on Twitter dave and you do a great job on there and I think the toll of running an online business. For me is that you know I've I've lost a lot of my attention span like being on social media and I know others have too as like the people who consume the content. Um, and I find like golf especially competitive golf I tell my wife sometimes I'm like this is like. My time to actually get so deeply focused on a singular thing and you describe the meditative state that like you know I'm trying to figure out how to do this outside of golf more often. It's like That's why I think this game is so special and fun is because and and the world we live in and like our attention spans are literally being destroyed and competed for by like very big entities that are powerful. Um the game. Ah if you put your phone away allows you to get. In this state that is like so refreshing to me and I look forward to it now that I can get inside this little bubble inside of this box and it's just very comfortable and it's nice to be there. So yeah, it's kind of like an escape as well and I really um, kind of cherish that more than ever.
30:47.87
dave_gerhardt
Well casey and I talked about this when we when we started this podcast. It's just like there is something about just being at this point in our live mid mid to late thirty s where I find myself or I found myself kind of just. And especially with with work like I've built similar to you built an online business like everything that I do happens digitally somewhere my kids come in. They they just see me sitting here and they're like that doesn't work I don't I don't know what he does and there's something about having an and that analog hobby and I just to be out there in nature. Not on your phone locked in on something that's just shooting a good score or not I think like let's get back to like what if I told you that you could have a four and a half hour sometimes 5 or more walk in nature I'm on this like amazing landscape you talk about this in their book did in your book and I try this sometimes either if I'm playing bad or just. Just take a minute to just like look around and I'm I'm in Vermont. There's mountains. It's just beautiful up here I do try to take a not to be super like hippie on you but like I do take a minute to be like dude come on. This is not your full-time job. You're out here playing golf like you tweet every Saturday morning I see you John and in the in the summer like if you're teeing it up today. Remember. Have fun blah blah blah I think even just putting yourself in that frame of mind like oh I haven't seen Casey in forever we're going to go have a great time today just be in the moment. That's what I love about this game that I don't think you get from from a lot of other things and i.
32:14.28
dave_gerhardt
It's important for me that my kids see me doing this because I want them to grow up around sports and have those outlets like we did growing up where you'd go play basketball at the y for 6 hours and not have a care in the world I think you can have that with golf and I think to your point it's more important than ever. Okay.
32:25.93
Jon Sherman
Yeah I think just having no matter what happens out there I just want to have a baseline appreciation that I got to do it and I as you said like we'll take several moments throughout the round to kind of take a mental snapshot I don't care if you're a beginner golfer. Or I mean I've been working with Mackenzie Hughes who plays on the pga tour I mean this is kind of some of the the crux of the conversations we have together is like I need him to go out there and appreciate the fact that he gets to play golf for a living because it's very easy for him and all those other players out there. Just get so obsessed with the results on the score that it just becomes like I can't perform so a lot of it's even reminding this sounds crazy to people like reminding him that you know he's out there to you know, have some gratitude that he gets to do this for a living. Of course the context and the stakes of that are much different. Um, but you know he came on our podcast and talked about that I wanted people to hear that because it's it's not just for like you know beginner or intermediate players like I think that mindsets for everybody in some. Shape or form.
33:39.21
dave_gerhardt
Yes, we we this is very random. We have a Mackenzie Hughes story well it's just involved for the tweet case. Can you tell us.
33:47.80
Casey Ford
Yeah, well ah Mackenzie yesterday for the downtime at ah, the pebble beach program when they were waiting out Sunday got delayed but he was saying I'll take some questions so David I have this thing he brought up a few weeks ago where he when he goes through.
33:57.29
dave_gerhardt
Way way? No no, no, no, no, no John do you run.
34:03.39
Jon Sherman
I'm more of a biker I've run in the past but not currently.
34:05.44
Casey Ford
Still works I think it still works. Do you listen? Ah you have headphones in when you bike or exercise. That's say that's fine. But so so Dave exercises it runs often and does it so with 0 headphones.
34:07.52
dave_gerhardt
And ah.
34:09.49
Jon Sherman
Yeah, but it's on the Peloton let's be a little bit more descript about that.
34:20.17
Casey Ford
Which I think is a little crazy I mean I don't run that much so I shouldn't.
34:20.46
Jon Sherman
I walk I will say this I walk every day and I do not use headphones but I'm with either when I'm with my wife or not with my wife. It could be either.
34:24.58
dave_gerhardt
See same thing so we had we had Kyle Porter on a couple weeks ago and Kyle and Kyle had just he kind of had like a real red face. He's like sorry he just came back from a run got fight that dad boughtw Dave and he was like I like let me ask you a question headphones or no headphones because I I've switched. No headphones casey's tweeting at Mackenzie Hughes and Mackenzie said something like what are you crazy? Of course I if I go for a run I use headphones.
34:47.88
Casey Ford
Um, all a city I'm taking questions and that's the first thing that always pops in my head now I ask anyone.
34:50.59
Jon Sherman
Well I think I think if it's a more higher exertion activity like when I lift weights I always put this on on Twitter like I literally listen to the rocky 4 the same 4 or 5 songs over and over again like I could not lift weights without doing that like if you gave me no music like forget it.
35:04.34
dave_gerhardt
Yeah, that's hold on hold on. We got to double click on that. That's just a complete psycho move the same 4 songs over and.
35:08.80
Jon Sherman
So. Yeah over I've I've completed I have a tonal so I have all like the digital confirmation I've completed over 200 weightlifting sessions over the last I don't know eighteen plus months
35:17.80
dave_gerhardt
So that makes sense.
35:27.56
Jon Sherman
99% of them are to the same 5 songs from Rocky four and I often tell people that those songs got me through my first book I would put them on in the morning and it sounds crazy but like it's like a pavlovian response at this point if I'm tired if I'm tired and I don't feel motivated.
35:42.63
dave_gerhardt
You got to write. Ah.
35:46.54
Jon Sherman
And I hear those synthesizers and trumpets come on like you can't stop me like good luck like.
35:50.58
Casey Ford
I it's so funny I can say I have I have a very similar thing where going back to college but and I still do it now anytime I'm writing or or really deep into something I put on the eighteen twelve overture I don't know how I found this I'm sure everyone knows it that then and and then and then and no like the fourth the July fireworks song.
35:50.91
dave_gerhardt
Are when I get when I get your book.
36:06.77
Jon Sherman
Have.
36:10.58
Casey Ford
I don't know where it is. It's like a 15 minute song and it's very mellow and then the end is that kind of the firework part and it just kind of wakes me up when it gets to the end where I know like oh it's a but you know I've just spent 14 minutes in my own head kind of finding what we're talking about like on the golf course trying to find that. Almost meditative state where you're not thinking about anything but what you're focused on it's this this song for whatever reason I can ignore and helps me get to like a white noise space. That's.
36:36.52
Jon Sherman
It's I I do it on the course I play songs in my head during my pre-shot routines especially on the greens. It's become part of my process. Um, yeah I I'm all about it. But yeah I don't think I could to clarify like if I was running right Now. Um. I view walking as like kind of a meditation so I want to like look around and stare at the trees and come up with ideas like I'm not sure I could do that while I was running though because it's a little more more high intensity I mean I'm envious.
36:53.60
dave_gerhardt
So sure.
37:00.25
Casey Ford
Right.
37:02.13
dave_gerhardt
All Well so I'm I'm the weird I'm the weird one because I go for a run and don't listen anything you guys listen to the same things over and over. Ah.
37:08.25
Jon Sherman
I'm envious that you're able to do such a demanding physical activity without like the yeah motivation for music.
37:13.57
Casey Ford
Yeah, for me, it's like just a painkiller. It's like a motivation to not think about every step I'm taking is miserable just to put a bow in this mackenzie did say never I'm not sure I could muster the strength without to run without music so there's something there.
37:16.12
dave_gerhardt
Um, I'm trying.
37:26.67
dave_gerhardt
I got a bunch of I got a bunch of I want to jump around. Ask you like a bunch of quick questions related stuff. You've talked about and then I do want to talk about I Don want to talk about your business and your writing process and we'll we'll wrap up talking in there but maybe like um shortish kind of answers on on each one of those these topics can you talk about? um block.
37:42.17
Jon Sherman
Sure.
37:46.66
dave_gerhardt
Practice verse repetitions. This one is for Casey he needs to learn this. Yeah.
37:50.60
Jon Sherman
So I mean we can go on for hours and we have on our podcast so you know block practice is what most golfers default to like same target same intention over and over and over again. Um random would be like changing the target the club. Um, I mean you can get into subcategories where you're changing intentions. Um I think most coffers have ah overdosed on repetitive practice and they're not engaged. They just kind of rifle through the the bucket. What I would call a zombie range session I'm not against block practice I do a ton of it. But I'd rather it be more intentional. Can you go through a routine can you pick a target can you take time after each swing to absorb. How is my impact you know, ground contact start direction curvature absorb what happened and then do it again that is in ah in a short description a more effective block practice. Now I think golfers get bored and I think introducing random practice where they're kind of changing targets. Um, yeah, you can get into performance games. That's another thing. Um, but it gives your brain an opportunity to reset. And if you change the target not that it's not going to like work wonders. But I think it gives a lot of people a better chance of being more intentional and building skills the whole point of practice is not to get into a groove and hit your 7 iron really well after 30 swings the whole point of practice is to prepare yourself for the.
39:15.83
Jon Sherman
Truth of golf which is you get 1 chance. Um, and I think if you blend the 2 of them and I give a lot of ideas in the book on how to do that? Um I think you'll have a better chance of building better ball striking skills versus getting stuck in that zombie range session where you're not.
39:16.21
dave_gerhardt
Yeah.
39:35.22
Jon Sherman
Thinking you're not engaged and you're just kind of going through the motions.
39:36.35
dave_gerhardt
Yeah I wrote I don't know why I wrote this but I wrote block practice first repetitions. But it's that it's that random. What what did you? What word? did you just use. What do you call it random yeah because this is I mean I make this mistake too. But I try not to make anymore. Just you go to the range and you come back an hour later and you just hit.
39:44.48
Jon Sherman
Random.
39:54.43
dave_gerhardt
Ah so a hundred drivers and you're pouring sweat and I I didn't get any better for me now I think having a instructor block practice I try to do it when right now I'm trying to like shorten the length shorten the top of my backs swing and get in a better position I think it's helpful when you have something specific to work on.
40:09.52
Jon Sherman
That's a perfect example of it like if you're working on something technical that you know a coach is telling you to do and it has relevancy versus like oh I just fired up Youtube I'm going to try this swing move today like that's not productive. But.
40:18.76
dave_gerhardt
Yeah.
40:21.28
Jon Sherman
You know you having customized swing advice and working on that drill like that is productive blocked practice.
40:24.20
dave_gerhardt
Or here's a next question for you. Talk about shot shape I've heard you rant on this with some other folks at some point but should you have 1 shot shape with all clubs should you work it both ways should it be different with driver and irons. What's your opinion on shot shape.
40:38.27
Jon Sherman
So I as I had said before with like intentions on shots and like whether it's match player like I love continuity in golf I love being able to do a few things really well like super simple. So yeah I I prefer. You know if you if you want play a fade with your driver and ah and a draw with your irons like that's cool with me like I just ah, the answer to the question is choose the shot shape that gives you the tightest dispersion the best chance of of hitting it. Well like if you're trying to play a draw in a fade. I guarantee you one of them is going to introduce more more double crosses where you just like you're setting up for fade and you just blow it fifty yards left or vice versa.
41:16.00
dave_gerhardt
What do you see? What do you see most of the high level tour tour guys. Do do like did they all play 1 Obviously they can work it both ways but do they try to play one shot shape.
41:25.69
Jon Sherman
It depends on the player I think there's more of a movement to do one shot shape. Um I think Brooks Kepka and dj are 2 perfect examples like they started winning majors when they just like hit the repeat button on a baby fade and just stop trying to play all the shots. Um. There's plenty of guys who I mean it's different for them because they have straighter ball flights now. So like someone like Mackenzie for example, like his path is very neutral. So like yeah if he's got the club face closed a little bit. Or open a little bit. It might be a baby drawer baby. You know fade. So it's not that different but he prefers to play a fade like that's his kind of like swing Dna so outside of them like if they're thinking that way. Um, you're talking about the 15 handicap get really good at 1 thing.
42:13.60
dave_gerhardt
I Like that.
42:15.47
Jon Sherman
You don't need to I don't work the ball in both directions I mean I'm a more of ah a draw player and I've kind of straightened my ball flight out I don't intentionally try and hit fades ever unless like there's a tree in the way and I really think I can bend it around there if there's enough space. That's one out of a thousand times. Maybe. I'm I'm stepping up with the same intention pretty much on every swing and that's where I think most golfers can play their best. So I'm not a fan of trying to work it both ways. But again if you have a better shot shape with your driver and it's different than your irons like go for it. Just do some testing you can use Launch Monitors. You can track. Stuff on the course try and settle on the shape that gives you the best chance of less double crosses and tightening your dispersion like it is I believe it's that simple.
43:04.64
dave_gerhardt
Resisting The pin is a universal concept that can help all golfers I Love this one I try to do it but I'm a sucker and I'm competitive so I can't talk about this concept.
43:14.75
Jon Sherman
Yeah I think you want to shoot lower scores. You got to hit more greens or give yourself more easy chip and pitch shots. Um and a lot of that happens if if people are just defaulting to the pin as their Target. So if it's tucked left talk right on the front of the green. Um, they're just shifting their target too far away from where it should be and they're shortsighting their self a lot They're just not giving themselves enough opportunity to get the ball on the putting surface. So I give a pretty basic strategy to most players with the approach game like as you get further away from the whole one hundred yards and out just. Kind of playing to that two-thirds back of the green and and more to the meat or center of it like that strategy has saved many many golfers a lot of strokes I think when you get better and you're let's say a better tournament player like yeah, you could start adjusting targets closer to the pin. But again, it's not directly at it unless it makes sense strategically like decade from Scott Faucet is a wonderful system for more advanced players on how to pick better targets and even you know the average player can use it as well. But I just want people again with simplicity. So that they step up to the ball and they're not like having 4 different decisions in their head. So if I tell them hey take a little bit more club and abetorms the center like that's something you could do every time and that will quiet like my main reason for telling people that is that I think it'll statistically I believe it'll help them hit more greens but it also will.
44:41.94
Jon Sherman
Reduce the amount of indecision they hit before each shot because the decisions kind of already made for them and then you can make adjustments from there.
44:48.78
dave_gerhardt
When you you bring in I think it was maybe 2 two years ago when camps Smith won the players he he stuffed it on 17 and I think he was just aiming for the middle are and he and and you hit a little push and you find you find your way into something right.
44:55.66
Jon Sherman
Yeah, he wasn't aiming there. Yeah exactly and that's the the foolish thing about like watching golf on Tv is like a lot of the times we're like drawing conclusions based on the result of each shot but like I would love to have. Player's intended target on each swing and then we could know like oh he actually like blew that ten yards right of where he was aiming. Um I've also put that in the book like watching golf on Tv is not the best instructor to becoming a better player.
45:24.76
Casey Ford
Ah, you talk a lot about incremental progress as being like a key to improvement. What's something that you've you've been working on like recently or maybe a recent win. What's what's incremental progress for you Someone who's in the the pluses.
45:36.23
Jon Sherman
Um, right now. The hardest thing I'm having to do is I have unfortunately I have tendonosis in my elbows of but what when you we would call tennis elbow and that's a tough one to Rehab like you have to be very patient with it. So. Right now I'm I'm looking for and incremental progress in my you know Rehab Schedule and being patient with that and not trying to go hit too many balls or being patient with it. So and that's my current challenge but like yeah with with anything in golf if you're looking to make a change and get better. Like I had to really tackle my driver years ago it's like I don't expect to in two months start you know hitting laser drives if I can hit 1 or 2 less out of bounds every few rounds. You know, ah a couple of more fairways and and kind of make smaller more achievable goals for myself along the way like that'll help me feel like I'm more on track and not get down on myself like I think most at most but a lot of golfers put themselves in a situation where they're looking for these enormous like. Short-term breakthroughs and I know this is a problem in society in general and the game doesn't work that way for most people so you have to be you know I love the word incremental just because it gets you more on a path where you can like check off these little boxes and feel better about yourself and then you look back.
46:55.48
Jon Sherman
And in six months you're like oh I I did that like I got way better at that because I wasn't like staring at you know the the top of the mountain. You know I know that's cliched along the way I was just kind of looking at my footsteps.
47:09.40
dave_gerhardt
Let's talk about your business a little bit so you're you're coming up and you're building a business in relatively a new era where you're doing that writing online. You started practical golf. You started your blog. 15 so you've been grinding on that for 17 years which also people don't appreciate. It's not like you just started this a year ago. Um, that led to you building a presence on on social media and eventually writing the book. Um, just curious like as ah as a business creator marketer.
47:29.18
Jon Sherman
Ah.
47:41.74
dave_gerhardt
Audience builder myself like um, tell me what what that experience has has been like and did you expect to one day grow up and be an online writer and have that be your job.
47:52.70
Jon Sherman
No no I mean the the most interesting part about the whole process is that like I ended up in a place where like I didn't really think I would be but like I started it with like a deep passion for wanting to get this message. Out about playing skills and and having the perspective of a golfer rather than a swing instructor I thought that that voice was was missing. Um, so yeah I just started with the intention of of writing good material I was very interested in like online business I used to work at Google. You know when I first got out of college in 2005 so I got a little bit of a taste of it. So yeah I was super interested in growing it all and this has been like blogs were not dead but they were on their downturn I would say in 2015 yeah I learned like Seo affiliate marketing growing an emailil list like all the skills that I know you know Dave I follow a out of your stuff and I think it's very interesting and along the way I think the best skill I developed was that I was able to take a complicated game. And explain it to people in a simple way that got them to change their habits I wasn't very good at it for the first 4 5 6 years but I kept experimenting and seeing what was resonating especially with the business as well. Um, and it just got to a place where like I kind of found my voice. Um, but as I said with like.
49:17.89
Jon Sherman
Even tournament experience like I wrote so many I wrote hundreds and hundreds of articles and for two or three years didn't really have much success to show for it. But I loved doing it and I kept going. Um, yeah I was still involved in a business with my father I've always been in sales. Um.
49:27.55
dave_gerhardt
And were you working where did you have a full-time job that was like generating income.
49:37.86
Jon Sherman
I would say it took me like 5 years to build it into a business where I was like okay I could do this full-time. Um and you know how I was making money changed a lot. Um, even to the point where when I released the 4 foundations of golf which was really a culmination of like everything I had done from 2015 that when I put it together in 1 package and you know I did self-publish it and I saw the response I was like it just totally changed my mind on like what my business was going to be and what I had to offer the golf world in the future. So yeah, the 1 thing I've learned is that like nothing stays the same. Um, I kind of doubled down on what I noticed what was working and what I had you know I thought I had a competitive advantage really writing books is really hard. Um, writing is really hard. You know so I thought like I have some type of advantage there. And I do other stuff I do podcasting and other things but like I just notice I'm like what can I have the biggest impact with and like turn my attention there. So like yeah I'm just going to I think I'm going to keep writing books and do everything else I do but um.
50:45.37
dave_gerhardt
Well, what's cool now is you have you have an audience and so there's like this really powerful. You have the feedback loop and so basically like when you go to write a book. You're never like you're not going to be like oh what should I write about right? If you're constantly writing articles for your website sending. It. You have a big newsletter list almost 50000 subscribers you have amazing engagement on. So on Twitter you can share like ah a thought that goes you know goes viral or gets a great response in your niche and you're like oh this is interesting people really like when I talk about this topic that stuff then becomes the seeds of like what you go and spend time deeper on and go and write the book right.
51:19.52
Jon Sherman
Yeah I know you know this very well but like yeah, it's very you know when I got the idea to write the foundations of winning golf I just started asking more questions to people like I just want to hear people's problems and more importantly, what they think is the problem. Um, or I could throw out mini ideas or mini articles and those turn into chapters. So yeah, like as you grow an audience like it's kind of like an economies of scale thing like you have this disproportionate advantage where you can get a massive amount of feedback from people quickly. Um. And it's it's no different than I think the comedian working on their 60 minute routine um if they're a little bit more popular. They can go to any club they want and test out material and if it bombs in front of 50 people and likes rural New Jersey like who cares like if I put out something that. You know the algorithm doesn't like or people don't respond to I don't care because no one will remember it because they didn't see it or if they didn't like it. They'll it'll pass. But if I see something hit then I'm like okay that's a chapter and I'll expand on that. So yeah, it's.
52:17.39
dave_gerhardt
Yeah.
52:22.36
Jon Sherman
That is one of the advantages to having an audience is that as you said the feedback loop which is incredibly important in becoming a better golfer. It's also important in in putting out content that people find value from.
52:33.35
Casey Ford
Do You also find that could be a challenge sometimes as someone who you have these philosophies and you're talking about a lot about audience building and finding what resonates with people. Do you ever find that like sometimes the things that are resonating aren't so much the thing you. Hoping to get across or are there things that are less resonating with folks that you're like this is a key thing though that we still need to get Across. It's ah it's a key foundation.
52:55.35
Jon Sherman
Yeah I think there's stuff that I will put in the book that I know wouldn't be a big hit on social media. But hopefully if I've done a good job in the book and I have people's attention and more importantly, they're buying to listen to me as a coach. Then they're going to listen hopefully listen to that thing that I put in the book that would not go viral on Twitter or maybe would fall on deaf ears in a newsletter. So yeah I think there's a bit of that where it's like I'm going to a lot of what I'm writing is getting you to take the medicine. You don't want to take. And I will give you some of the greatest hits and the things that you like but I also will give you some stuff that you probably don't want to hear and if again you trust me and you think I'm doing a good job then maybe you will do the hard work and change your habits on that topic. So yeah, that's I saw so I don't know who said this but like.
53:41.92
Casey Ford
Right.
53:49.63
Jon Sherman
Someone was saying the downsides of like using social media as a test for a book or generating ideas like there's a different reward system for both and I just try and do my best to blend them together when I create the finished work and then the audience will decide like you'll you'll see how people react.
54:06.32
dave_gerhardt
Just because I'm a dork Do you have a to do scheduled your tweets. Do you write out or just like off the cuff. Do you have a process for writing there.
54:15.96
Jon Sherman
Um, um, so I've experimented with both and I've been fortunate enough to like connect with some other like bigger creators over the years who we've kind of talked about this I'm a very disorganized person. Unfortunately I think that's. I don't know if I think of myself as a creative person I guess I am but like with that like I don't want to compare myself to elon. But I heard him say like my mind is a storm like you don't want to be me and like sometimes I feel like that too because like I just have like all these ideas running through my head about like golf and business. And yeah I think Twitter is just like this haphazard um me ejecting the ones that I think are best. But yeah I'm ah I don't use tools. Um I'm kind of a little I'm more. Ah, more disciplined than I used to be like I only want to do maybe 1 2 3 good thoughts a day at most like I used to just do stream of consciousness stuff and it got me nowhere. So I'm more disciplined but I'm still not completely organized if that makes sense.
55:07.94
dave_gerhardt
M.
55:15.80
dave_gerhardt
I wouldn't have guessed that you're you're very, you're very organized and methodical in your in your writing. So what? what.
55:19.57
Jon Sherman
Oh I'm a mess like it's the only way I can write a book is if I say like you're going to do this like it's going to be really shitty for four or six months whatever it takes you or over 2 years for the first one and like you're just going to get up every morning and do this. And that's what I have to do to myself to make it happen and if I don't do that like it's the blend of internal and external goals I talk about that in the new book if I don't do that like I will not get it done like I could be lazy I could be disorganized. Um, and if you think looking at me from the outside that I have. All my shit together like I absolutely do not I want to make that very clear.
55:57.39
dave_gerhardt
Case any anything you want to yeah the rocky 4
55:59.20
Casey Ford
That's all before you knew the eighteen twelve overture thing though. That's gonna change. It's gonna change your life. Yeah, ah I'm going to try that you're gonna try that.
56:01.61
Jon Sherman
Like I have to listen to rocky for over and over again to work out like what does that? What does that tell you about me.
56:08.23
dave_gerhardt
Case you want to you got anything any parting words before we let John off the hook. Yeah.
56:10.90
Casey Ford
Yeah, just I will say I would put myself in the in the category of a creative person with that comes the storm and all the disorganization you're saying but once in a while something will come across where I'm like God Damn that's the I wish I had wrote that or I wish I'd come up with that. Your thing on the war against double bogies is one of the my favorite things I've ever read because it's like it was exactly the thing that I needed to to comprehend but until I took kind of the next step in my game you talk about that real quick and just what how do you came up with that and and thank you.
56:39.30
Jon Sherman
Um, thank you I Just thank you for saying that it's always interesting to hear that because I think that's what coaching is in a nutshell like just saying.
56:42.31
dave_gerhardt
And thank you I.
56:50.81
Jon Sherman
Finding different ways to say the same thing and sometimes the way you say it will change. Someone's behavior and buy and it could just could be a few words. It's crazy how that happens? Um, but yeah I just I figured out what a lot of people figured out about in golf was the way to get better was to reduce the big mistakes. It wasn't hitting more pins and tapping birdies. It was removing oh shit shots. Um, so I knew when I first started like that's why no one paid attention to what I did for a long time because I was saying the boring stuff I'm like oh you got to punch out of the trees. You got to aim to the bigger part of the green like you have to take your medicine. Everyone's like well that's not fun I'm like well if you want to lower your handicap That's what you have to do so like my rallying call became like we have to fight the war on double bogies like that is the only way like me you and everyone else is going to get better is by removing. Bigger mistakes because they bleed your score so much faster than a birdie restores it like birdies are not like most goffers will not make more than half a birdie around. Um but they will make a ton of doubles triples and quads and getting those off the scorecard. Is how you turn a ninety five into an eighty five or an eighty five into a 78 so yeah I think that became my rallying call because it's just the truth like there's no other way to say it and.
57:58.32
Casey Ford
Right.
58:07.59
Casey Ford
It is.
58:12.17
Jon Sherman
I knew I sacrificed probably having a much bigger audience if I hadn't gone for maybe some of the more sexy your stuff. Um, but that was always like my Dna is a golfer like how can I fight against the worst parts of myself and the worst decisions and losing my temper. And get rid of these bigger scores and like that's kind of like the genesis of everything I've done. Yeah, it's it's just it is a universal concept I don't care if you're trying to win a pj tour event. You know break a hundred ninety like it. You.
58:33.23
Casey Ford
And there's a lot of veterans of that war out there. So it resonates with a lot of people.
58:47.62
Jon Sherman
You just have to reduce them. You can't eliminate them but you got to reduce them.
58:49.49
dave_gerhardt
No doubles all right John Sherman thank you for giving us an hour of your time. This was so good. So good to hang out with you finally get to put a face to the to the name. Although I I read and listen to your stuff everywhere. So that's the other thing about building online. You feel like everybody everybody knows you. Um, go and check out John on Twitter he's practical golf practical golf dot com go and check out his book and maybe like six months from now when the new book is out or whenever that is we'd we'd love to we'd love to have you back on and and dive into some of that John thank you for hanging out with us and ah. I hope you enjoyed the the long game pod. Thanks man, thank you.
59:21.51
Jon Sherman
I I did thanks for having me on.