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We are back, back, back again in the Age of Apocalypse for our final coverage of the epic 1995 X-Men event. Today, we discuss the conclusion to the story, how the AOA continues to pop up to this day, the spinoff video games and when and how we'd like to see the AOA on the big screen.
Ep. 111 What if the Age of Apocalypse finally wrapped up but appeared in X-Men comics again and again for all of eternity?
Part 3 of our X-Men: AOA coverage
From Marvel's Earth-295 in various comics before and after X-Men: Alpha #1
Find us at https://linktr.ee/dearwatchers
It's the final part (for now) of our Age of Apocalypse coverage! We find out what happens to Magneto, Rogue, Gambit, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Wolverine and the big blue meanie. We discuss parts 4 of the individual titles plus X-Men Omega, all coming from such writers as Warren Ellis, Scott Lobdell, Jeph Loeb, John Francis Moore, Larry Hama, Fabian Nicieza, and Mark Waid. We also talk what comes after the 1995 event, the toys, the video games, and the future of the AOA, including whether we will ever see it on the big or small screen.
We'll be returning to the world of the AOA soon with a What If episode with a special guest!
Plus, listen to hear about Guido's upcoming Spider-Man book, solicited in this month's Previews!
Reading List:
- Age of Apocalypse: X-Calibre #4, Generation Next #4, Astonishing X-Men #4, X-Man #4, Factor X #4, Weapon X #4, Gambit and the X-Ternals #4, Amazing X-Men #4, X-Men Omega #1 (Marvel comics 1995)
Theme music is Space Heroes by MaxKoMusic (Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0)
Creators & Guests
Host
What is Dear Watchers: an omniversal comic book podcast?
Dear Watchers is a comic book podcast taking you through the omniverse where your Watchers Guido and Rob explore a different multiverse each episode, from Marvel’s What If to DC’s Elseworlds and far beyond. Join as we discuss the stories that were inspired by and take inspiration from each episode's alternate universe. Includes special episodes with guest creators, scholars and fellow podcasters to share their favorite trips to the multiverse and help ponder the possibilities of what lies ahead for comics and storytelling. For bonus episodes: www.ko-fi.com/DearWatchers
Welcome to the conclusion of the darkest timeline and also to Dear Watchers, an omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up the omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey are me albie NSA about Guido again, one last time.
It was the dawning of the Age of Apocalypse. Age of apocalypse. Apocalypse.
You did not warn me that you'd be singing on this.
It's me, Rob. And before we let the, uh, sunspot shine in GitHub, what's new in our.
Little section of the multiverse firing on all cylinders moment?
The coffee is just hitting me.
This is part three of our Age of Apocalypse. We've done every other week. So if you're looking for parts one and two, we'll direct you to them in a little bit and give you a quick summary if you didn't listen or if you forgot what's in them. But this is not going to be the end of our Earth two nine five Age of Apocalypse coverage. So stay tuned and we'll tell you more about what you can listen to later.
Suspense.
Plus, is it our final giveaway of our Summer of Giveaways?
No, I don't think it is.
What do you mean, you don't think it is? You don't know it's at the end.
And it's supposed to be suspenseful. Oh, I forgot.
We do have this one more giveaway we've been doing this Summer of Giveaways. It's the signed comics bundle, and it's, uh, going to be on an episode, so you just need to keep listening.
Guido I picked up our comics this week, and we got previews. We always get previews, which you flip through every week. And I think I saw something in there that was kind of unusual. What was that?
Well, we had previews a few weeks ago. I just, uh, got a second copy of this, uh uh, because yes, a book I wrote is in previews. And it was pretty mind blowing to see it in there. I could not believe it. It's funny, because when I started writing books, I knew one was getting widely published. I was thinking, oh, one day I'll have a goal of being in previews, but I'm not too interested in writing fiction or comics. So I was like, I don't know what that'll be. And then all of a sudden, we're sitting there, I'm going through my order, and I see my name in lights in super previews, like 395 or something. So, yeah, there's a Spider Man spidey signal little toy coming out. It's a, uh, desktop replica type thing, very cool looking, coming out in October. And with it comes a book about Spider Man's technology that I wrote. So it's very exciting. It's a very cool thing from Running Press, and my editor is our friend Randall Lotowitz, who we've met on here many times, and his publisher works on all these cool little comic devices that you buy, and they come with books. So check it out. In October.
Our local comic shop, Earthworld in Albany, New York, just ordered some copies. So tell your local comic shop to get some in.
Yes.
And if you are joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today origins of the story, exploring multiversity, and pondering possibilities. Thank you for joining us on today's trip to our multiverse.
And remember, you can find us on all social media. We love to hear from you or send us an email podcast@dearwatchers.com.
And with that, dear Watchers, welcome to episode 111, and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. Sir, today we are back, back again to one of the most famous alternate universes ever to find out the answer to the question, uh, what if the age of apocalypse finally wrapped up but appeared in X Men comics again and again for all eternity?
It's true. It does really never end. And, um, it's kind of cool. And we're going to spend a lot of time on that. So as a reminder, this is Earth Two Nine Five, the Age of Apocalypse so numbered because of its debut in February 1995. We covered part one on episode 107, part two on episode 109. So you can go back and listen to those. But Rob, what happened on those episodes?
Um, so part one, we talked Legion Quest and the kickoff to this world, as well as some behind the scenes about the creation of the age of Apocalypse. Part two, we got into the heart of the world building and the center of each story, as well as the animated series connections. So what is part three? And are we finally done?
We're not done. We will never be done with the AOA. But part three is the climax, the resolution. How does Earth Two Nine Five wrap up here? Probably designed as an end, though it is not, ultimately. How do we get back to the 6116? What are the countless ways we've already referred to that? Two Nine five is an Earth we never see the last of, even though it theoretically ends here. So we're going to dive into all of that today.
And if you listen to parts one and two, which you should, because if you're listening to part three and haven't listened to those, this won't make a lot of sense. Well, you'll know, that Age of Apocalypse issues were actually new to me. They were not new to Guido. And we shared our backgrounds on the AOA in part one. So let's just get on with our discussion and jump into the future or the past, its origins of the story.
Right now on this very show, you're.
Going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years.
Ago.
And.
Usually I ask you back to our first two episodes of the series, but since this was new to Rob, as he just said, let's hear what he was hoping for in the ending before we get in.
Well, I think I was hoping that all the threads would come together because there's so many different stories, and a few of them, which we've talked about on previous episodes like Generation Next, don't seem to have a lot to do with the central story. So I was really curious how those stories would come together. I think that's my number one thing that I was really hoping for this conclusion. And I think the other thing would just be that there is a satisfying conclusion period, really, that the villains get theirs and that the romance, the love triangles that are set up come to some kind of resolution. And that, yeah, there is just a period put on the end of this very long sentence.
Well, especially I mean, you're reading it nearly 30 years later, so you know that there are ways it shows up well beyond this storyline. So, yeah, I guess you'd want an end in spite of knowing that it doesn't actually end.
Was there something, Guido, rereading this that you really wanted to get from the final parts?
I think I've talked a lot about just the masterful world building, so I think since I've reread it so many times and am now rereading it, uh, as will always be true, every time I reread it, I'll have more knowledge of the X Men and these characters just because the world continues to exist and come out. So I think I'm just looking for those really subtle little things that I might not have seen on my last reading. Uh, a character that I might not have really realized what the writer was doing. Or just those little not even Easter eggs. More just the subtle nuances to it. So I'm excited and just hopeful. And I already know spoiler alert, because we already read it, so I already know my experience of it. But that was what I was hoping for in the end. I will say I was surprised. This is not like a spoiler. It feels like it fits into this question because I was surprised at actually how much is set up for this world to continue. Uh, now, again, like, you having 30 years of knowledge of how much this world has persisted. I'm like, oh, wow, it's sort of in there, even though this is clearly an end. Like, there are these little pieces, and we'll get into that.
Well, let's get into it right now. And we all fire up the enkron crystal and start exploring multiversity.
I am your guide through these vast new realities. Follow me and ponder the question, what if?
And today we are asking the question, what if the age of Apocalypse finally wrapped up, but appeared in X Men comics again? And again and again and again for all eternity.
All of it.
And we read a lot of books, but not as many as this is like a vacation.
Well, I kept all that because our third segment today is quite hefty, so I kept the reading for this one limited.
Okay. Yes. And that reading list is these are all part Fours excalibur. Generation Next, astonishing x Men, X Man Factor, x Weapon, x Gambit and the Xternals Amazing X Men. And a, uh, number one X Men Omega from 1995, of course, all from Marvel Comics and from June 1995.
So our huge list of credits. Bear with me. Written by warren ellis, scott labdell, jeff loeb, john francis moore, larry hama, fabian nica, mark wade penciled by ken lashley, chris bacalo, joe matera, steve scrochi, steve epding, terry dodson, adam kubert, salvador Laraka, andy kubert, roger cruz. Inks by Tom Wegzren Philip Moy Mark Buckingham Tim Townsend Al Milgram Bud LaRosa Dan Green Matt Ryan Carl Keisel Harry Candelario Scott Hannah colors by Joe Rosas Steve Bucholato electric Crayon Mike Thomas digital Chameleon Glynnis Oliver Marie Javins Kevin Summers letters by Richard Starkington Comiccraft Pat Brusseau, Chris Eliopoulos edited by Suzanne Gaffney, Lisa Patrick, Kelly Corvisi and Bob Harris, who's also credited as the Mouse Confessional and Editor in Chief. So we read this because it is the conclusion. We can't summarize everything that happens. But since it's the finale, we'll give you a brief sense for those of you who haven't read this in 30 years or haven't read this ever, but have, for some reason, stayed with us and listened to all of these ins and outs. So the finale of Earth Two Nine Five, at least this time, all the pieces from these individual titles start to fall into place. Apocalypse has captured Magneto charles, his son with Rogue, Magneto's son with Rogue and the Mcron M crystal. But all of the separate X teams and the related allies come together finally to recapture them. As the X Men arrive to battle Apocalypse, the Human High Council launch their nuclear weapons, decimating the Midwest, causing Apocalypse to retaliate. So his stronghold is crumbling. He still won't relent. The heroes are dying left and right, some in really ridiculous ways, some in interesting ways. All very dark. X man meets his parents gotten Jean, but they're soon killed by Alex, who's then killed by Wolverine. X man confronts Holocaust, uses a shard to end them. Ish in a final confrontation, Magneto uses his powers to tear Apocalypse apart, quite literally. And with the help of Ileana and Destiny, bishop goes into the crystal, ending up in the past 6116 Legion quest that we saw to stop Legion. Doing. So he ends the two nine five. Ish yet again. And the last thing we see is Magneto, Rogue and little Charles awaiting the end of their world because the timeline has been reset. So we have a lot to unpack in this. Not sure where to begin, I guess, general impressions and what your reaction was, or what stands out to you as you've read this conclusion.
Well, this being the first time that I've read this, I think I was personally surprised by how emotionally I was invested in the outcome, because I think we discussed this on episode two of this miniseries that I think round in the middle. I started to phase out a little bit because I like the setup and the world building introduced in the first issues. And then it was like, okay, my mind's drifting a little bit, and I was actually really surprised, just, like, how much I really kind of got back into it as it came into the end. I got a little bit emotional at the very ending, I think just that image when well, I think this image of these people whose lives who are reconnected finally, Magneto, Rogue and Charles, because they've been separated for a bit, and that the fact that their world is ending, but they've also had m to have their world. Huh? End their world in order for the greater good. It's actually reminiscent of the way the animated series deals with this story, with Wolverine and Storm coming to the realization that, uh, their love, their marriage is going to be destroyed, but it's going to lead to another world. And, like, in that, it means in the 6116, there's still a chance that these characters could get together in some way. So I thought that was emotional. Plus the stuff with Alex and Gene and Wolverine and Scott and all these other little things, even some of the more ridiculous stuff, I think I was just emotionally invested. And maybe that just comes from being a 40 issue series. At the end, you're just like, okay, I've been in this ride with you now, but, uh, did you feel this rereading this? Were you emotionally invested still in this journey?
I don't know. I think I was really approaching it from such an intellectual place because I've read it so many times, I have a little bit of distance. I mean, having said that, there are some things I've read so many times, like House of X, that will always make me emotional, but it didn't hit me emotionally. Some of it might also be like, I don't like Rogue and Gambit. I don't like, um, Rogue and Magneto together. And since that is a 6116 that they have had an on again, off again, it doesn't do anything for me. I don't care. But Rogue and Gambit are my couple. So, yeah, I didn't have that emotional experience. I did feel quite satisfied with, uh, it, which I think is the first thing that stands out to me, is just I've talked about this in every episode of ours, about this just what a feat it must have been to have all these pieces come together. And even what you're saying about the different characters, it's making me think about the way that one thing I might not have realized when I was reading this as it was coming out, was just how multi genre it is. And yet it still comes. Like, even though Weapon X is this very different sort of espionage kind of book James Bond story, and even though Factor X is like this noir brothers who hate each other, dark and gritty, all those plots end up coming together, fused into a real comic bookie, x Men Omega, everything looks similar, feels similar. So that's yet another way that all these pieces coming together just strikes me as a huge accomplishment. Because, like, you're like you're feeling something about the Cyclops Gene Alex Wolverine scene. And it's like that's coming out of two different books that were totally so distinct and are now in a M squarely X Men book, and yet you're still feeling something from like that is masterful. That's why this event is masterful.
Yeah, and maybe they felt they had the freedom, too, to kill some of these characters off, because of course, Scott and Gene, who obviously wouldn't well, Gene dies all the time in 6116, I guess. But to have the opportunity to really kind of kill them in an emotional way, reading Accent and to have Alex be the one that does it, I think that really helps. They probably had that freedom because, to your point, they had so many other restrictions because they had to end up at this endpoint. But what was fun was, along the way, they could kind of take all these divergences that they couldn't normally have in 6116 continuity.
Well, that's what I think is interesting, too, is that some of that I was thinking, and again, now reading this in the context of the show and the two years you and I have spent analyzing world building and how these stories get told. It was cool to see the elements of this that are clearly that are also in a single issue of what if? So we often talk about in a single issue of what if, how there seems to be this predisposition for writers to want to go a little darker, to kill people, to have things end in part because they don't have to reset the status quo. So it was cool to see that here in, uh, a, uh, more expanded, a less compressed story. They had a ton of room, and so the stakes are a little higher because we know these characters. But in this final issue, it definitely felt more to me like a what if moment where it was like, oh, they're just like, whatever, let's let Shadowcat die. Who cares? It doesn't matter because this world is ending. So I thought, uh, that was cool.
I think one thing that helped them do that too, is just this story has some true out and out villains. Because often you think like, well, Magneto, he's got this good side, he can never be like truly villainous. I'm thinking the Spider Man villains, so many of them like the Green Goblin and they have, they are human, they have these good like there is nothing redeemable about Apocalypse here. Even when you compare him to Thanos at least as he's portrayed in the MCU, where you kind of see where his mind is coming from here. Apocalypse just wants to kill everyone and rule and really doesn't care. And Holocaust is the same way and Abyss like all his henchmen. So I think it really helps to have a villain that you just really want to hate and want to be defeated and can bring you to that darker place that you're talking about as well, without even having to have that sliver of humanity.
He is definitely an out and out villain. But I did notice in this and it's funny you compare him to Thanos in the MCU. I feel like with the right writer and maybe a little bit more room to focus on Apocalypse, he almost could be Thanos in the MCU because he's looking for the survival of the fittest. And I like, uh, in Omega, I think it's Omega there's a moment where he realizes the humans and the mutants might kill each other and he's sort of just like, okay, that's what it is. He was like, I didn't predict that maybe the survival of the fittest means that actually none of us survive. And it was like, oh, he doesn't rule for power. Even though he is definitely an absolute villain with no heart and no moral center. But he's not self motivated. And that makes it a little more thanosy to me the MCU thanosy to that.
I can see that just in my head when I hear Josh Brolin's voice. There's always that lilt of humanity, of questioning, of sadness. Sadness is probably yeah, that's the word here. When I hear Apocalypse, whatever the voice.
You hear Oscar Isaac, you don't hear that?
No, I don't hear Oscar Isaac, but I definitely kind of hear something almost like on the animated series, which is so cold and ah, not caring at all. And I kind of do like that's how I do hear him here. It's just like he has no human feelings. While we know Thanos at least like how he was portrayed in the films, does have these feelings for his daughter and for certain things. But yeah, I think that's one of the things that makes this so strong is just like oh, there's great villains at the heart of this story.
Well, and then to see them get ripped apart is very satisfying.
Exactly. Well, then that's my other kind of point, which is like we get I was kind of mentioning the MCU and the criticism of often of the MCU is they end in these giant battles, which is just like CGI things exploding. Nothing really often really matters. Even in good movies. Like Black Panther. We spend so much time with Martin Friedman trying to shoot down some planes, and it's like, do we really care about this? But here I thought what this did so well was making all of those stories about the characters, about their arcs. So we really get to focus in on the Summers brothers and Gene and Wolverine and that quartet, and it really resonates so much more. Even stuff like Colossus accidentally killing Kitty, which is so ridiculous, but we know where he's coming from, so I think it works so much better.
Well, I think likening, this to the MCU is interesting because I did enjoy other than I think I actually like Roger Cruz a bit, other than he draws women in bad positions and he draws breasts in, uh, unrealistic ways, but I like him because this is my era of X Men. He goes on to draw the X Men books a bit, but one of the things I liked was the way he drew and the panel breakdowns as the battle is building. It felt actually a lot like Endgame to me. Like you saw each of the battle, and that is why I think Endgame works. And Endgame is not, uh, uh, an example of that criticism of a big third act climax that you sort of lose track of and lose focus in. And this is the same M way. Like, you don't lose focus, you don't lose track, you get why, okay, let's see how Gambit and Rogue are going to interact, and let's see what's going to happen with Strong Guy and who's going to confront him. And you can follow and track all the parts. My favorite moment, which felt actually a little bit like Endgame portals, which I think is why I liked it, is when you're sort of opening into one of the big battle scenes and Blink opens up a bunch of little portals and charged cards come through gambits charged playing cards each come through one of the portals. So it's just a cool cinematic moment in this epic battle scene, I think.
Totally. Yeah, I was definitely reminded of Endgame as well. And yeah, I think that's a good example of it. But I would love for the filmmakers to go back and maybe read this issue and see, oh, this is how.
It should be done.
Totally.
Maybe they were inspired by this in some way. If anything, I actually think, because that battle works well. Uh, a, uh, criticism I'd have, and I don't think it's a criticism, but I think this is a little brief. In fact, it's surprisingly brief, I'd say. I mean, I think my counterargument is that in the last 20 years of comics, where they try to sell everything and stretch everything, and this probably would have been like a twelve part conclusion. So I appreciate that it's concise, but I could have used another ten pages. Give it a little more room to breathe and see more vignettes of the battle and get more of those character moments that are really fun, like Rogan Gambit, or like Gene and Scott and Alex and Logan.
Well, we're so used to in both TV and movies now, to that big J duma, where even something like Endgame has all this 1520 minutes after the big battle to kind of wrap everything up. And the Game of Thrones structure, where you do the big battle in the second to last episode, and then the last episode is like, how did that affect the world? So I think our storytelling has been so corrupted by that kind of new.
Way of by streamer.
Streamers. Yeah. It's like, okay, we have to kind of show the wrap up. And here it's like part of it is that ticking time bomb of the fact that the universe is about to, uh, end, which makes it like, oh, no, the ending has to come. So we don't really get that moment of like, oh, all the characters get to figure out where they going to be. We literally just get the shot of our family, our central family, about to see their world eclipsed. But that's all we kind of need. So, I don't know, I think I disagree. I kind of like that it is. You like it, uh, quickened to the point.
Well, again, it's not a criticism. It's just I could have used a few more pages, I think, because I was enjoying it. But I think talking about the end, I think gets us to one of the last points I know we both wanted to make about this, which is how it ends. And if it ends, I think you liked. And, uh, again, obviously, you knew going in, right? Uh, I had the experience in June 1995, reading this and not knowing what was happening. You had the experience knowing some of this was seeding. So what was that like? Seeing the way that the crystal is going to obviously become a device to bring some of this over to the 6116?
Yeah, you had told me a few characters that then came over to the 6116, and I did wiki some characters like Sugar Man, just it was like, what is the story with these characters? But I really like how they use the crystal. Sugar man jumps into the crystal. Beast teleports himself into the crystal, but also something goes wrong. Evil beast, I should say. Then Holocaust and X Man. Well, as we said in our summary, x man stabs Holocaust with the crystal and they disappear. So I really like that they actually use this device, which has always seemed a bit like of a device, almost a little meta, as we talked about in our other episode.
The nexus of all realities.
Exactly.
It is a literal device. Yeah.
But they really lean into it here in this final issue of saying, oh, no, this is literally what's going to transport characters to the 6116. And I wasn't sure if I was reading this or how I read it. I do think I read it as this world is ending. Now, I know we're going to talk about how this world doesn't quite end, but I do kind of read it that way and see all these characters that are going into our reality. So I really liked how they did that.
Yeah, and it's cool. I mean, we didn't read X Men Prime, which is the story that comes after X Men Omega, which is like the sort of reboot, soft reboot of the X titles in the 6116 and sets up a lot of the plots and in that is where you then get the follow up of like X Men lands on Earth and Holocaust is trapped in space and you get some of these pieces. But I liked all that too. I was actually surprised how much of that was in here, as I mentioned, because I didn't remember that they seeded it quite so much. And one thing I'm curious about, and I've mentioned really wanting an oral history of this. There's one piece online that was done about the AOA, but it's not incredibly comprehensive. I'm curious when they locked in, who would continue and why, and we'll talk in a few minutes about all the different examples. But I'm just curious, was it the popularity? Did issue two of all the AOA titles come out and they saw like, OOH, people are loving X Man, let's continue. You know, uh, was it always in the design? Was it like, hey, there's so much potential in Holocaust, although they stopped using that name for obvious reasons. Um, and then they stopped using a character, but there's so much potential. So maybe the plan all along was like, let's create him and then bring him to the 6116. I'm just very curious when all of those decisions were made, because I had forgotten how many of those decisions were clearly made here during the run. I thought some of them were retcons and some of them later do become retcons.
But yeah, and today it might even be easier because you could look on social media and see, is Sugar Man trending? Ah, are people making memes with him? Or something like that? Yeah.
Oh, I'm sure they have so many analytics and metrics that they can use. 90s would have just been the title or letters. I mean, you do hear stories about the role of fan letters. And so if people were writing in saying, give me more Sugar Man, I don't know that they were. But we did get more Sugar Man.
So maybe pour some more Sugar Man on me, baby.
So I think those are all of my general thoughts about this conclusion. Before we get into the future of the world, is there anything else you want to say about it?
No, I think thank you for. Making me read this because it was like 40 parts. Oh my gosh, that's so much. But really, once it got to these final part fours and our Omega, it was like, oh, I actually really I said this, I think, last episode, or I said in my head. But once I hit the end of some of the threes, I was like, some of them I was like, I'm so glad this is kind of wrapping up because I was never really into this, like Generation Next, even though it looks cool. And some of them I was like, oh my gosh, I want to read part four right now. But I can't because it's going to confuse me so much. So it definitely worked that way.
And before we move into the future of this world, I guess one question that fits well here is who should read this? You get to answer that because, uh, it's impossible for me to say, do you think? I mean, it's hard for you to say, too, because you are a casual fan and as we talked about in part one, you do have some familiarity with these comics. Can someone new to X Men read this? Should someone have some familiarity? Should you have deep familiarity, like, who reads this and why?
I think you need to have some familiarity. Hard word to say. I think you do. Because I don't think you can go in super blind. I just don't think you're going to get as much out of it. I'm thinking about the Summers brothers in Sinister, and that's still a big thing that I don't know super well, but I know at least enough of it now. Maybe you can get something out of it just to see the brotherly dynamic. But I do think that Gene and Wolverine and how they all mash together, I think so many other little things I think would just benefit. But I don't think you need to be a complete expert like you are to also enjoy it. And, uh, I would occasionally Wikipedia, like, there's a random character named Rex who's one of Apocalypse is like main henchmen. He pops up a lot, especially, uh, Omega. And I looked him up, it was like, oh, who is this character? I don't know him. Nope, he doesn't exist outside of Age of Apocalypse. And so there's a few characters like that where it's like, oh, probably if I was a bigger fan, I would have even known that. But it doesn't really take away from your enjoyment.
Uh, and last question before we move on, does someone need to read it all? Can you pick a title? Can you pick two titles? Can you read half the titles? Should you read all the titles?
I think the only one, which I've said before that seems like mostly Superfluous is the Generation X title. And I think it looks cool and I don't think it's badly done. I think it just doesn't feel.
And it fits better into the Generation X run, frankly, than the AOA run.
But, uh, yeah, even some of them, like the Weapon X One, which don't matt as much, tie in or Excalibur, which I really enjoyed. I think you still need to read them because they really do, um, have a big impact on where the story does end up. So I do think you really need to read everything there's just maybe some I would skim.
Yes.
Well, let's head into the future, join Bishop on our pondering possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted diverted? So, Guido, this, uh, is the end of Age of Apocalypse, right? It never comes back ever again. So what could we even be talking about for pondering possibilities?
This is the dawning of the Age of Apocalypse, as the song goes. So we're going to divide this into three sections because this world does go on. And we're not going to go into great detail on any one piece because these are all pieces that we can cover on future episodes. And we will cover because we're going to talk about three sections. So one is the multiverse jumping characters. So we'll give you a background and an overview on who leaves the two nine five and when and why. We will go into the direct sequels and the follow ups. So the pieces that have added to the canon of the original two nine five. And then we'll go into the alternate versions because there are what ifs and alternate versions of this alternate Earth.
It's like a Russian nesting doll of.
Multiverse a Russian nesting doll of the Age of Apocalypse. So for the universe hoppers, these variants, if you will, here's a quick rundown. The first is probably the most significant in terms of scale and scope, which is X Man. So X Man is the most famous. Initially, his title continues right away. In fact, you might have noticed at the end of issue four, everything says ending, go to X Men Omega. His title says, go to X Men Omega. And then next month the Man Who Fell to Earth. So you know that it's going to continue into five.
It's the only a little harder on the Marvel app because all the other ones, it's like, okay, four issues, I can find it easily. And that one, it was like a.
Little more five issues. Yes. So this is the only title to continue its numbering from the AOA. For those who don't want to know, a spoiler from 25 years ago. He lands in the 6116. He has this ongoing title until 2001. For 75 issues, he dies, comes back. Comes back, actually, in some Avengers stuff, oddly, and is on again, off again. Underused until 2019, plays a huge role X Man in the Age of X Man storyline at X Men Disassembled, which is a little bit of an alternate universe moment before you hit House of x. And that's fodder for another episode. Uh, do you want to read more X Man? And then let's talk a little bit about why we think X Man was the one that they carried forth. But are you interested in more X Man?
I'm not particularly interested in more X Man, but I think one of the reasons why he carried on is he definitely seems very ninety S to me. He's got, like he is his look. He's got, like, an attitude. He's got kind of a Peter Parker sarcastic comment for everything. As you said, he's got the look, that floppy hair, he's got the leather.
And like, a freak in his hair for no reason. That kind of stuff.
Yeah, he's like the bad boy. So all those things as very, like Sega, uh, ninety S. You can kind of see him. So that's why I feel like he carried over. But we don't get too much of his personality. I mean, I guess we get more of his personalities than some other characters. I remember X Man when it came out in the think it might have been in some of the trading cards as well. Did you read this when it was coming out or have you read it since?
I read it when it was coming out. I loved it. I don't know why. I'm curious to revisit it because I know some people hate it, but I really loved it. I read all 75 issues of X Man. It's weird because I'm not a fan of cable. I don't know what it was about X Man that I liked. I really don't. It might have been slightly his attitude. It might have been, uh, that Madeline Pryor comes back in his title. I don't know. I don't know why, but I really liked this title a lot and read it as it was coming out, but I've never revisited it.
He's like a toned down version of Superboy, of 90s Superboy. A bit not quite as extreme as Superboy is.
I think they're pretty similar. Yeah, it's a good comparison.
Now we have exiles, which, shockingly, we have not yet covered. We will that's in part because we are waiting for the creator, Judd Winnick, to one day join us.
Fingers crossed.
And you started a massive start to finish reread, but you did stall out in part because the collected editions aren't out of those single issues are so hard.
They collected the first volume, but then never continued. And I just hate fishing all the issues out of the box, though we do own every issue.
So this is a 2001 title of Multiversal Dimension Hoppers and they are led by drumroll, please. Blink. Yeah, Blink. So Blink had a four issue series before this in which it is mostly a prequel, but in the end shows her becoming pulled out of time. So what do you think of this series? Even though you stalled or this character, too, of blink.
Well, I think Blink was clearly to me, Blink might be an example of someone who was popular and that they went back and did because there's not setup now, she is an example. When we were talking offline about the climax of AOA, she's an example of one of the characters where you just don't know what happens to her. Uh, um, there's no moment for her. And so that's why I wonder, unlike X Man and Holocaust and Dark Beast, who were clearly planned to pull over to the 6116, I wonder for Blink if it was more like there was popularity for some reason. And so they then decided to start using her. Exiles is an awesome, awesome title that revisits the two nine five. It revisits AOA. It pulls characters from all different places. It's such a fun kooky ride. But Blink is the core part of it. And I'd say it was like, relatively popular for a minute.
She has some great kick ass moments, like where she drops Holocaust into the VAT of goo and stuff like that. But I didn't really get too much of her personality, I would say. So I'm surprised. That's why she was so popular.
Yeah, well, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was like a creator who liked her because this is five years later, so it's not immediate. It is some years later. They then decide to use her.
And she has a helpful storytelling power as well, because you could just teleport the team wherever, which maybe a creator was like, cool. Ah, yeah, she does. She has a great look.
She's different. She doesn't look just human, but she's cool looking. So there were a bunch of other people who were dimension hoppers. Mostly they would come through either X Man, they'd show up in the X Man title, or later, Exiles title, but a few showed up in non X Men, non Exiles, and that's Holocaust, Dark Beast, Sugar Man, and then a handful of forgettable folks who carried over. But those are the key ones with the most story built around them. I'd say Dark Beast and Holocaust having the most significant runs in X Men or X Factor.
Are any of those characters still around in the 6116 today in mainstream continuity?
Well, the 6116 beast is dark, but it's no longer dark. Beast uh, no, I'm trying to think.
Sugar man seems like the easiest one. You could just pop into a story if you wanted, like a crazy essential.
I don't know what status of Sugar Man is. He was in Generation X for a bit in the don't know that he's sewn up too much since then.
And he's in one of the action figures where you can glance.
He is a build a figure for the Hasbro Marvel Legends. They did the whole AOA line, and he's the build a figure for it.
All right, well, let's talk direct sequels and follow ups. So, 1996, just one year later sees Tales from the Age of Apocalypse, a direct prequel story involving an early X Men adventure on Two Nine Five with the Inhumans and 1998 Tales from the AOA Sinister Bloodlines, yet another on Cyclops and Havoc.
Yeah, so two one shots that were canonical prequels just to build out the world. Clearly, the popularity was enough that they were like, all right, let's try these out for the next few years.
There's like, a hellraiser movie called Bloodlines. I think everything in the late 90s was like Bloodlines.
There is that big DC crossover, Bloodlines.
Too, and then X Man and the aforementioned Blink give us a few prequel stories over the following years, too.
Yeah. In their titles, you get, like, flashbacks. So, uh, X Man minus one, when there was a big event and all the X titles did a minus one issue which showed a prequel story. In that title, there's an X Man minus one that shows, like, an early Sinister story. So you get more of the world in those titles a bit.
That must have been horrendous for the diamond ordering. Now it's M negative one.
It's a funny thing, too, as a collector, and as any collector can attest, where do you put it in the lineup, in your box? Do you put minus ones at the beginning, even though they're from like, 1996, or do you put them in the order that they came out in? It's, uh, a mess. I put them at the end personally. Uh, all right, then. In the ten year anniversary for AOA 2005, there's a one shot followed by a six issue miniseries. This is a direct sequel. So this is now Jean Gray has saved the universe and the Two Nine Five continues. And you have all the characters in different places, and you find out what happened. We will cover it one day. But it is written by the really just I'm over it vomit inducing when I pulled this up and saw that it is still on Marvel Unlimited, credited to Akira Yoshida, which is a fake name by C V subulsky that should have prevented him from becoming the editor in chief. The idea that this white man had a pen name as a Japanese writer is just abhorrent, and I can't believe that he still has that job. Uh, it's really shocking to me, but we'll cover this story one day if I can stomach the fact that I'm reading something that is still being credited to a fake Japanese person. So that is the direct sequel that comes up.
And then there is a non x men character that in 2009 hulk broken worlds. That's a two issue series that shows different Hulks and as jump around all the multiverse. And we do just for folks who don't remember, we did see the Hulk in the Two Nine Five back in our X Universe issue. Yeah.
So then the next biggest continuation of this story is in Rick Remender's Uncanny X Force, which does the Dark Angel saga starting in 2011. It's a whole long story that starts in the Two Nine Five and then ends with tons of stuff happening in between. And it's like cosmic and mind bending. And Rick Amender is trying to write like that acid trippy kind of way where it's cosmological and philosophical and also might not make any sense. But in the end, the Two Nine Five gets sealed off sort of as a prison of sorts, though, before that happens at the end. I mean, this is a multi year arc that remainder is doing. There's an ongoing, the first ongoing called Just Age of Apocalypse that lasts for 14 issues in 2012 and 2013. It is a part of that whole Dark Angel saga and all the stuff he's doing in Uncanny X Force.
And does dark angel activity focus on Warren?
Yes.
Okay.
A lot of activity 2011 to 2013.
Well, but it comes back in 2015 during the Secret Wars. Fabian Nica, of course, one of the architects of Age of Apocalypse returns. And we will surely cover this five issue series where these are on, uh, the battle world, and each world gets to revisit a fun Earth or timeline or story, in spite of continuity of that Earth or the 6116.
Yeah. So during the Hickman Secret Wars, which would be I mean, AOA took us three parts that would probably take us like at least eight parts, if not twelve episodes to cover. It is massive and magical and amazing. But yeah, this is one of the spinoff series, is AOA. And then the last few years since then have had some random cameos in multiversal stories, mostly of the lighter variety. Nothing serious or nothing that's a direct continuation of Earth Two Nine Five. And then finally, for our last part of the future, there are some alternate versions. There have been three proper what ifs, and we will cover these. In fact, we have an incredibly extra special guest, someone we've been trying to coordinate with for probably almost two years to get on the show. And in just a few weeks, he will join us to cover one of these what ifs. But the three what ifs that happen in the next decade plus are, uh, what if Legion killed Magneto instead? What if the AOA never ended? And then what? If Legion killed Xavier and Magneto? So some fun questions being posed, and.
Of course, especially if you grew up in the there is not just in comics, but the effect rippled out. And there are video games. In 2001, there was a Game Boy game, Reign of Apocalypse that is based on this story. The 2005 X Men Legends Two Rise of Apocalypse video game is loosely influenced by this. And Avengers Alliance and Future Fight, all feature side quest stories and skins based on the AOA.
And that's not even mentioning the countless and endless toys still coming out from the line.
Usually there is some age of apocalypse toys that not the original line.
So we do have those also. But we do also have the Marvel Legends hasbro. So the AOA is around, but our final questions are, uh, do you want to go back? And if so, how do you want to go back?
Well, I do think there's so many stories that still could be told in this world, and I think prequels, which we mentioned, there are a great way to do that. What is the build up to this world now? I think that gets tricky because it's like the Star Wars thing, right? Like, you know where it's going to end. So sometimes the storytelling is a little limited, uh, there but there could be more stories to be told within the continuity still of what we were kind of reading. I mean, there's so many X characters, and there are surely characters that we didn't really get to spend too much time with or any time at all with. Would you want to go back? I mean, obviously you have read some of these, but do you like going back to this world? Is it a world that we've visited too many times? No.
I think what's interesting, what's so strange to me is we've talked a lot again about the multiverse on this show and the way current comics are dealing with it and DC is dealing with it in, I think, the more compelling way where you'll get a lot of miniseries and titles that are different versions of the characters, you know, and don't relate to continuity. But it's clear you're reading something distinct. So whether it's the Black Label titles, or whether it's even just some miniseries, or they're doing like twelve issue Maxi series, superman Lost is a great example. There's plenty of Batman ones where you're just getting this story told and it's not going to affect the main canon. It didn't take place in the past or anything. And I think that's really cool and has a lot of potential. Marvel's not doing that, and Marvel is doing, I think, really dumb stuff with miniseries where they are trying to have it be part of the continuity. I think Marvel is stuck in their it's all connected idea. It's what the MCU is probably stuck in, too, where everything has to be part of some prime universe, some core story. I think the AOA is a perfect example of, like, just create an AOA title and have it set in two nine five.
Yeah, totally.
And who cares? Like, two nine five and six one six. Don't need to meet, don't need to cross. We don't need any sort of event at the beginning of it or the end of it. We don't need anything. Just give us two nine five stories. Like, let a creator tell stories in that world. And I think there's so much potential for that because as I said on our first episode with this, I think the Two Nine Five is probably after the prime universe and the ultimate universe in Marvel. This is definitely the most well developed universe there is. This is the biggest universe there is. So just give us an age of apocalypse ongoing. And again, who cares how it relates to the 6116? People will know. Everyone is conversant enough in multiverses at this point that there will be no confusion. No one is going to pick up the age of apocalypse and be like, wait, how does this relate to the Rogue and Gambit I know in 6116?
Well, it's funny, I just mentioned Star Wars and I feel like that's what they're doing with the Star Wars properties now, where it's like, okay, we don't need to mention we're done with the Skywalker saga. We're just going to tell other stories in this universe. And it's not going to be connected to those original core characters, but because they figure everyone knows what that story is, we know how those characters are going to intersect. So it feels like they're doing that in that way.
Yeah. Well, and on that mean, do you want the AOA to be adapted?
Yeah, I think it definitely can be adapted into, uh, a movie or a TV show. But kind of going back to what you asked me before, do you need to know X Men in order to get into this? I don't know if it can be like the first thing that you adapt. I don't know.
No, it would be kind of cool thinking of what I just said about the multiverse. Again, it's such a well developed world and it couldn't be a completely faithful adaptation, but with the right writers and creators, wouldn't like a ten episode series in the AOA. Let's say it comes out next year. Wouldn't that be cool? And then you find out, like, that's a different universe. Like, that's two nine five in the MCU. And then maybe you do end up having a crossover or someone goes to the Two Nine five, or someone comes out of the Two Nine five. Right. I think it could happen. And again, it doesn't have to feature all these side characters. It doesn't have to depend on your knowledge of who Jamie MADRIX is to work. They could be introducing Jamie MADRIX for the first time in this two nine five version to an audience.
That's true. And you could treat that as a reveal to the audience members that, oh, in fact, all these monks are one person because we have evil monks that all come from multiple men here. And you could treat that as a reveal. And then, of course, for the people who already know that, it's like, well, of course I knew that. But then they can just, uh, revel in the eventual, oh, there's Jamie kind.
Of and then there could be a Jamie MADRIX in the prime MCU X Factor movie. And, uh, again, I think audiences are conversant enough that it doesn't matter that it was a different universe, as long as they know it was a different universe. I think there's a lot of potential.
Do you think it needs to be a series versus a movie?
Yes. Yeah, I agree to work that way, at least. Yes. I think if you're going the other way so if you spend years establishing the X Men in the MCU, and then you do an AOA, sure, it could be one movie, because then it's one big alternate universe movie. You have something create the universe at the beginning, go in, spend an hour and a half with all these different facets of the world, or considering Marvel spent two and a half hours with all these different facets of the world, and then it ends at the end, I think that's okay. But, uh, it's more suited to longer form storytelling, maybe even a two parter, like an Infinity War endgame.
That's true. I think it has to be at least two parts. Maybe if it doesn't need to be a whole, like, ten part series. Because I do kind of get tired of those sometimes, but maybe at least like a two or three or four kind of that British model almost, of let's just make them a few long movies, basically, that we're all watching. What do you think of this idea? Now, you said you don't like sometimes maybe the Six one Six and Age of Apocalypse always crossing over. But what if they did? And you had the 6116 apocalypse character face off against the age of Apocalypse apocalypse character, because apocalypse is all about survival of the fittest. So who is the fittest apocalypse?
Well, first we have to answer that question. But in terms of what I think of that, it's, uh, fun. It's a little bit like an Incursion or like a battle world or I'm thinking about during Avengers versus X Men, they did a spinoff title as part of the event called AVX, where each issue was like, sort of a matchup. It would be like Storm taking on Iron Man or whatever. So I'm imagining that you could do something fun like that, have whether it's the whole two nine five or just apocalypse via apocalypse, I think it would be fun to have the two nine five versus the 6116.
Yeah. And of course, I think it's pretty cool caught in the middle. And some of them are, of course, enemies, because the Cyclops would be maybe against the other Cyclops, but some of them would be friends.
And it's the story I know you've never read Hickman's Secret Wars, and we will one day cover it in 20, uh, part episode, but when the movie comes out in 2037 but the idea of the Incursions is like, there's one Earth that's going to smash into the other Earth. And so some Earths start to attack the other Earths. And the Illuminati on our Earth have to decide, are they going to start destroying these other Earths? It's the only way to protect our Earth. So you'd have like, the two nine five and the 6116 matched up in an incursion. And it's like, okay, they have to fight because only one of the Earths is going to survive.
I love that.
So it's a fun idea, but which apocalypse is stronger?
Uh, gosh. Well, maybe, uh, the 6116 apocalypse design.
Here's what I'll say because, uh, again, offline, you've commented on the two nine five, uh, apocalypse's design. So design wise, I'm going to say the 6116 far superior. Especially like the Krakowan era apocalypse, where.
He totally he looks really big and.
Broody and he's got the little cloak over his bottom half like he's a warrior.
I do not like that age of apocalypse design. I just don't look short.
Folks who are short, you're short.
But for apocalypse especially, because he doesn't do too much in the story, he actually doesn't really kill too many people personally until close to the end. So you really want him to be like, as foreboding Darth Vader esque as possible and he just really isn't there. So, yes, judging on red, 6116 wins. And do you have a story like that that you would want to see in age of Apocalypse world? No, they've all been done.
No, like I said, I just want more stories in the world. I want to know more about these characters and I want writers to take them different places and do things with them because I think that's really fun. And while it's almost the only really ongoing example for Marvel ever is the ultimate universe, that's the only time where they had a, uh, sustained longer than this way of telling stories about characters who are based on characters, you know, but are different. So I think this is a great next alternate Earth to develop out further. I mean, I guess the problem is done, right? Like, some are dead and all true. So maybe it doesn't have the greatest potential that I'm thinking because of that, but I'm ready for more.
Mhm so as the Mcron Crystal puts a close on this chapter of AOA, it's not the last chapter. You'll hear about it here on, uh, Dear Watchers.
No, but that is a wrap. There is not a giveaway this week, so make sure you keep listening in to our coming episodes for that final signed book bundle. And thank you for listening. I have been N Saba Guido and.
I have been Rob. The reading list is in the show notes, and you can follow us on social media at Deer Watchers.
Leave a review wherever you listen.
We'll be back soon with another trip through the multiverse. And in the meantime, in the words of AWATU, keep pondering the possibilities.