Nate Kadlac: [00:00:00] So looking back on your career, what would you have done differently, if anything? I
Cole Medeiros: think the one thing I always think of, I wish I had studied a bit more.
Nate Kadlac: Welcome to the Hey, Good Game podcast, where we chat with the creators of your favorite games that you secretly play in the cracks of your day. Hey, I'm Nate Cadillac, and it's just me doing this interview today with Cole. And we had Really a great conversation. You know, what I loved about Cole's background is how he's been thinking about games forever since, you know, he started creating and working on GUBS in the fourth grade and how that journey took them to coming out with the Stardew Valley board game, working with concerned ape, I mean, what a career so far, and I'm really excited for you to check out the episode.
Nate Kadlac: So onto the pod.[00:01:00]
Nate Kadlac: Today, I'm excited to speak with Cole Medeiros, the co designer of Stardew Valley, the board game. Cole is a game designer and has successfully created two well known and highly praised board games, Web of Spies and GUBS, a game of wit and luck. With the latter selling over 100, 000 copies worldwide. Aside from board games, he has worked in creative and design roles in game companies like Jam City, Zynga, and Storm 8.
Nate Kadlac: Stardew Valley is a cooperative game where players work together to restore the valley. They accomplish this by growing crops, raising animals, expanding their farm and collecting resources from across the valley. And it has sold over 30 million games in total as of this year. Cole, I'm so excited to chat with you.
Nate Kadlac: Thanks for being here.
Cole Medeiros: Yeah, absolutely.
Nate Kadlac: What is your favorite game to play?
Cole Medeiros: Well, yeah, normally I have trouble answering that question because I, I'm racking my brain and trying to think, oh, my favorite game. so I, I tend to focus on just what is the game that I'm playing at the moment and really thinking a lot about.
Cole Medeiros: Currently, it's a board game called League of [00:02:00] Dungeoneers. Blanking on the designer of it, because it was a Kickstarter, it's like a giant box filled with cards and it's sort of a Child, or inspired by like Warhammer Quest. So it's like a dungeon crawler, you can play cooperatively, you can play by yourself.
Cole Medeiros: And it fills up your table with random dungeons and fun stuff like that. So, that's the game I'm always thinking like, oh I want to play a little bit more of that when I find it.
Nate Kadlac: Love it. It kind of maybe leads me into, starting this, this conversation around what makes a great board game. Like we've chatted with a lot of great video game designers and digital games in general, but like board games just kind of carry this extra weight, the physical nature of it.
Nate Kadlac: You know, the, the amount of risk that's involved in creating a board game, I suppose, you know, financially speaking, like what makes a great board game? I'll start there.
Cole Medeiros: You know, love it. It's such a difficult question [00:03:00] to answer because, you know, is a game good or not? I think so much of that has to do with the intention of the game, and also the audience for the game.
Cole Medeiros: You know, certain games that I love, other people are like, it's too much luck. And games they love, I'm like, oh, it's too stagnant, you know? So it, it, I feel like so much of it has to do with, does it meet expectations? And I think, You know, I can pretty clearly, I think, point to where some games that I've played, like, fall down.
Cole Medeiros: Of course, nothing pops to mind, but, you know, when I'm in the, in playing the game, I can think, like, Oh, this is the place where, like, it's maybe a little bit too clunky for what it's trying to do, or the fun is blocked by these other elements that are kind of dragging it down, so I, I really think You know, a great board game, sort of like a great movie or story, you kind of say, Hey, there's nothing here that doesn't need to be here.
Cole Medeiros: Everything [00:04:00] here has a purpose and a reason and really kind of compliment whatever that sensation is that I'm trying to.
Nate Kadlac: Yeah, it does kind of remind me of like picking up a book, you know, like if you don't deliver on the promise of the title or. Or like a, an email that you get is clickbait, right? You know, and it doesn't deliver on the subject line, like you're always let down.
Nate Kadlac: So I can see how that, that, that comes into play. Do you feel like, you know, designing games for children or adults is more difficult or what do you prefer? And do you think about it differently? Do you treat the audiences differently?
Cole Medeiros: Yeah. I thought about this a lot because I feel. I feel sort of like I end up as the board or card game DJ.
Cole Medeiros: Like I'm the one saying, okay, I'm going to this game group. Which games am I bringing for this particular group? What's going to resonate. And actually I want to have fun with these people. So what are they going to like, and I've seen it happen where you bring a game that you're like, Oh yeah, I really [00:05:00] enjoy this game, but this group, it just doesn't land with them because it's too much complexity or maybe not enough choice.
Cole Medeiros: And I've been thinking about that with, with regards to, I have a couple of little kids and my oldest is six. And so I'm like, Ooh, I want to share these games with her, but making sure it's not too much or too complicated and really appeals to like these very simple things that are actually a lot of fun versus the heavier, chunkier games that I like to play with my, you know, advanced gaming friends who just kind of, Have a library to work from in their minds and they can just take on these really complicated, you know, mechanics.
Cole Medeiros: It's very different.
Nate Kadlac: Yeah, absolutely. I do like the being able to take kind of a complex thing though and break it down for kids So we had an interview with Jeff Chen who created this game called squeezy and he like he submitted crossword puzzles to the New York Times he's been published quite a bit and Being able to sit down at the dinner table and build a crossword puzzle with his [00:06:00] daughter Is to me is like, Oh my, that's like the pinnacle of creativity and gamesmanship.
Nate Kadlac: And like, just this, that, that idea alone is so cool. And, just taking something kind of complex and breaking it down. I, I assume that it's difficult, but so rewarding, you know, when you can build something that's really tuned into a certain audience.
Cole Medeiros: Yes. I mean, I had an experience where I took a game, I think it was a recent Kickstarter, it was called Plot Me, and a really beautiful game about like collecting flowers and sort of Victorian era, and I was showing my daughter and The rules of the game are beyond her at this point, like it's a little bit too complicated, you know, all the card play, but I said, Hey, what if we just take out these flowers, and we're just traveling around the world trying to collect the flowers?
Cole Medeiros: And it was just, so I sort of simplified it, and she had so much fun just moving her pawn around. We weren't even really counting spaces. Sometimes for, for children, things that we have already, [00:07:00] like, rolled past in terms of, you know, we want more challenges for adults. Kids are like so excited to just draw a card and like read it and and try to find it on the board And so it's like I think it's all about finding the level at which you know, anybody is playing It's a little bit of challenge, but it's also Accessible to them.
Nate Kadlac: Yeah, so in the board game space. How do you know? Which idea to chase I know with I think it's, Gubbs, you had this idea percolating in the fourth grade, I believe, right? And so you were really sitting on that for a while. You know, the part of that is you've built up, you know, so much thoughtfulness and like the ideas that surrounded that particular game, it was probably inevitable that it was going to come to market.
Nate Kadlac: But yet like how, I don't know, like how do you, how do you choose which, which things to chase?
Cole Medeiros: That's a really good question. You know, I, I chat with a couple of my friends who are also [00:08:00] working on a lot of different projects including games, and we often feel like the idea phase is really easy. It's like, ooh, we're kind of bursting with all these things that we're interested in or excited about.
Cole Medeiros: And then you have to, at some point, latch on to something and say, I want to spend the next couple of years working on this thing, and it's that exciting to me. And it's really hard to do, because it's like you're signing up for this commitment. And, but I feel. The best games, or probably the best artistic projects in general, come from when you can't stop thinking about it, and your heart just keeps coming back to it, and you're like, ooh, I just, I want this kind of an experience, and I can't find it out there, so how do I build that?
Cole Medeiros: You just get a little bit obsessed. I, I, that's the way I sort of describe
Nate Kadlac: it. So with, with G. U. B. S., where did that idea come from? and. I mean, you were so young, like, did you [00:09:00] know that games were a thing that you could design and build? Like that was, you know, how you watch movies when you're a kid, sometimes you just don't know everything that goes into it.
Nate Kadlac: Sometimes you just don't even know what's possible or like, I could be a director or an act, you know, like it's just, it's complete, it's done, right? With games, like, did you, were you around them? Like, did you, did your parents, were they involved in this? Like, where did this all start?
Cole Medeiros: Yeah. I feel like I remember, you know, we had.
Cole Medeiros: Closet with some board games in there and you know, I always saw my parents playing games like Risk with their friends or things like that. And I remember when I was very young, I saw a copy of Hero Quest and I was like, what is this? You know, like I can bring it on my table and there's little adventures and there's like furniture and you know, and I didn't know it at the time, but I was infatuated with games still today.
Cole Medeiros: Because I think of them as story machines, like, they create an experience, and that experience is something I share with other [00:10:00] people, and then those people are like, we can talk about it, like, we don't say things like, oh, remember that time your little pawn did something, it's like, no, remember, you did the thing, you fought the robot, or, or whatever, and it becomes kind of this relief.
Cole Medeiros: Meaningful part of your history, I guess. And so as a very little kid, you know, I was drawing these figures, I called them gups and they kind of built out this world, just sketching and doodling and having fun with it. And then I remember sitting down and thinking, you know, I could cut up some index cards and draw some pictures and figure out how these things interact and kind of make like this little, this little story that you're trying to play through and.
Cole Medeiros: Just through massive amounts of iteration and playing this with people and saying, Hey, look at this cool thing we made. And they would, you know, add to it over time. It became this thing that was really precious to us.
Nate Kadlac: Yeah, that's, that's wild. [00:11:00] So when you're user testing a game, essentially, like what, what is different about testing a board game versus testing a video game?
Nate Kadlac: Is, is there a difference in your mind or how do you approach getting feedback and, and knowing it's, it's working with
Cole Medeiros: the board and card game stuff? Usually it's just. It feels a lot slower to me because it's, you know, it's analog. You have to get people to the table with some digital things like tabletop simulator, you know, you can, you can do this remotely, but it's always better when you're talking about a physical product to see people holding the cards, moving the stuff around and just seeing how, like, I'm always watching or what are they forgetting?
Cole Medeiros: Because that with the analog experience, people have to kind of run the game. They have to process the rules and then make it work versus a video game. It's kind of doing a whole bunch of stuff for you. And so I feel like with a video game, it's hard to know, are people getting the right [00:12:00] feedback? So they're aware of exactly how their choices are changing the status of things.
Cole Medeiros: And. You know, in a board game, it's more like, Oh, well, I did this thing and I, now I have to move that pawn. So the input and feedback, as long as they're following the rules, you know, they've gotten that part is a little bit more, I don't know, direct, but there's, there's still a lot of overlap in what you watch for.
Nate Kadlac: So I've, I've done a bunch of user testing on, on mobile apps and things like that, where you're kind of, kind of looking over the shoulder of someone essentially. Are you kind of like, Hey, take this game. Let me know what you think. Or do you ever do like live user testing with like board games? I mean, how, how does that actually play out?
Cole Medeiros: Mostly live. I feel like I need to be there and Seeing unobserved depending on where it is in development. A lot of times towards the end of that process, like I don't really answer any [00:13:00] questions that people are like, Hey, how does this work? I'm like, Hmm, they don't know how that works. You know, write it down.
Cole Medeiros: And then, cause for me, I don't want the mechanics of the game to get in between the player and the experience. So if they're forgetting something or getting stuck on something or not quite understanding how something works, even after they've been playing a few turns, I feel like that's a good indicator.
Cole Medeiros: Something could be more elegant.
Nate Kadlac: So, you released G. U. B. S. Is it, was that 2002, I believe, ish?
Cole Medeiros: Yeah, it must have been around then. Because it was originally self published. And yeah, I was still in college or right after college. So it would have been, yeah, very early 2000s.
Nate Kadlac: Was there anything in between G. U. B. S. and Web of Spies?
Cole Medeiros: Not. Anything officially published, you know, there's always like a lot of prototypes kind of cooking to say, I like to design and make stuff. [00:14:00] And, you know, a lot of the things you make, you're like, Hmm, this is not quite there yet, or there was a game or two that people told me, Hey, this is ready to go, you should do this.
Cole Medeiros: But I was like, that's not exactly what I want it to be yet. And so still working on it, you know, But yeah, those are the only two official ones that I did on my own.
Nate Kadlac: You were working at some of these companies in between and sort of building that experience. And what happened when Web of Spies That idea came around.
Nate Kadlac: Was it, were you looking for some, to build something on the side? Were you looking to escape kind of the nine to five? Like what, what was going on in your life at that time?
Cole Medeiros: I'm going to remember. I just always had this concept of this very simple spy experience. I just thought, how cool would it be? I remember thinking like flying around the world, picking up these assets and the stories that that could generate.
Cole Medeiros: And so I, I put a [00:15:00] prototype together just really quickly, actually. And I tried it with my wife and then a friend of mine, and we just went, wow, this, this kind of works just right out of the gate. And my friend got really excited. He actually was a big helper along the process of, Hey, you gotta do this. So let me, let's play it again.
Cole Medeiros: And. I had wanted to try Kickstarter. It's funny, about a year or so before that, I made a space game, and I was all excited to make this space game. And then Zia, Legends of a Drift System, dropped on Kickstarter, and everybody, you know, went nuts. And I went, oh, the space game kind of stole my thunder a little bit.
Cole Medeiros: But, you know, the game's cool, so I'm happy it went well. But yeah, so I kind of changed, and I had the spy idea, and then I realized also that the idea of secret agents and spies really resonates with a lot of people, and that [00:16:00] taught me, there are certain concepts that you just tell to people, and they are like, ooh, yes, I want to do that, you know, and it's interesting to think about him as sort of a, an on ramp into your character.
Cole Medeiros: Whatever it is you're building.
Nate Kadlac: So Kickstarter was, you know, and especially early on, it was such a great way to get distribution and attention. What was it like for Gubs when you released that? Like obviously a successful game. Did you do anything specific to try to drive attention to it? Marketing is just such a hard thing for so many creators.
Cole Medeiros: Yes, I, I remember I borrowed a little bit of money from my parents to fund the original, like I think we printed a thousand decks and then we were just selling them ourselves. I was going around to game stores and the game stores would say, Oh, [00:17:00] okay, we'll do an assignment. Maybe, you know, you're a local.
Cole Medeiros: And then they would call me a week later and say, Hey, I don't know why, but we sold them all and we'd like some more. And that kind of started picking up steam. And then we sold out after about a year or so, maybe a little bit longer, just kind of selling them myself. My parents were literally shipping some of these out of their garage.
Cole Medeiros: And then it was like, well, are we going to do a reprint? And I was like, well, I don't, I don't know. That was a lot of work. And of course I want to, but around that time is when Game Rant came out. Reached out and said, Hey, we came across your game. It looks like a good fit. What do you think? And that took a couple of years and then.
Cole Medeiros: Then the game was published by them for, and did pretty well with them for
Nate Kadlac: a while. Yeah. So it was a lot of word of mouth. It sounds like early on and that's, which is the best kind. Yeah. It's the hardest kind.
Cole Medeiros: It's really good. but it's true. Marketing is a really challenging [00:18:00] thing. I don't really know the secret to it other than I think it's importance is underestimated because you can have.
Cole Medeiros: A great product and nobody hears about it and it doesn't go anywhere. And you can have like a mediocre, you know, game that just has the right marketing and just everybody knows about it. So it, you know, it's successful. So it's a, it's really tricky. Do
Nate Kadlac: you have any advice around that? So we, we've talked with a lot of indie developers who just struggle with, with getting traction, you know, I think with your, your current position, you know, you had a built in audience with a successful video game.
Nate Kadlac: And so it's much easier obviously to launch something new there. But you know, I don't know, just in your experience, do you have any, you know, tips for, for game creators who, who are thinking, thinking about releasing a game, building a game and just trying to get some eyeballs on it?
Cole Medeiros: I think one thing that works in my favor with the kickstarter was really trying [00:19:00] to, you Make it clear to people.
Cole Medeiros: I don't know if this is still something that's that would work on Kickstarter, but I was like, Hey, it's just me. Like I'm just doing, I'm just an individual. And I tried my best to communicate what was I doing? Why was I doing it? Here's the production. Here's the ongoing stuff. And I don't know. I just think it resonates really with folks like you're just in your living room, chopping up stuff and mailing it out.
Cole Medeiros: Like people are like, wow, that's really kind of neat. That's not a big company. But I'm kind of bored with that story, you know, it's a, just a small little one person or a group of people, just doing something because they're very passionate about it. And, you know, I think there's some overlap there too with, you know, my current work with, you know, Concerned Ape and Stardew Valley, where, as the story goes, you know, he just kind of sat down and made the game.
Cole Medeiros: And then continued to work on it himself. And it's very [00:20:00] small and there's a lot of heart that goes into it. So I think that takes time to communicate, but I think that's a very authentic, genuine story that if you walk down that path as you're designing and you're trying to promote whatever it is, if you can share why you love it, then other people may also see that and also love it.
Nate Kadlac: Yeah, it's a little counterintuitive to inject your own personality into it, but I do think like Kickstarter did a great job of almost like facilitating that. Message so that you kind of had to do that. Like you had to create a video talking about the product that you were selling or raising money for.
Nate Kadlac: And I watched your video. I thought it was great. I thought it came across kind of like exactly how you probably wanted it to be portrayed. And I'm just a single, you know, it's just me here and here's kind of what I'm doing and showing a little bit of the behind the scenes. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right.
Nate Kadlac: That's such a, such great advice.
Cole Medeiros: You know, also my friend, are you talking about the web of spies? Kickstarter video. Web of Spies Kickstarter. [00:21:00] Yep. My friend. So I was having some trouble recording that initially because I was just all stuffy and like, like trying to explain the thing and I just couldn't really do a very good job of it.
Cole Medeiros: And then my friend said, Hey, come on down. I do a lot of video stuff. We're going to do this. And then he's like, forget about the camera. I'm going to set up over here. I'm just going to talk to you. And I want you just to tell me why are you excited about this? What is it? That's so cool. And we just talked.
Cole Medeiros: And he really, what he got out of me was the, the authentic, like, this is why I'm excited about this project. And it wasn't like, here's why you should back it, or here's why the game, it wasn't really about the game so much, like the game is cool, but the project is, is also, it's me, so if you want to help me make this thing, so I don't know, I, there might be something to that, it's just, If you're enlisting help, like show who you really are and what it is you want to do.
Cole Medeiros: And then people will say, Oh, that seems kind of neat. I'd like to help. Yeah,
Nate Kadlac: that's, [00:22:00] I think that's spot on. So tell me a little bit about, I'd love to hear a little bit about the backstory of, you know, Concerned Ape and creating Stardew Valley, the board game. How did that come to be? How did you, get in touch and become the right person to launch the board game?
Cole Medeiros: Yeah, it was, it was kind of interesting because we had a mutual friend who was talking to Concerned Ape and Hey, would you ever maybe think of making a board game for Stardew? And, and I think he said, Oh, that sounds kind of interesting, but I don't know how to proceed with that. And I'm, I'm very busy. And so I, my friend was thinking about me at the time.
Cole Medeiros: He knew I was doing a lot of board games and card games. So he introduced us on a, on a multiplayer game of Stardew Valley, which I remember being really nervous. Cause I'm like, You know, I was familiar with the game, but I was like, now I'm playing it with the creator while I'm trying to talk to him about this.
Cole Medeiros: I'm not, I can ask him about it. It is a next level, like [00:23:00] elevator pitch, you know, like
Nate Kadlac: pitching a VC and an elevator. It's like playing a game while with the creator. I'm in the elevator you built. Yeah, and pitching, yeah, exactly. Yeah,
All: right, right.
Cole Medeiros: But yeah, I mean he's, He's very mellow, he's a great guy and, but you know, also, I think I wasn't the first person to approach him with this idea and he gets a lot of pitches for, for really interesting things but you know, because it's really just him and a very small team, you know, it's, we have to be very careful with what he takes on, tries not to stretch himself too thin or get too distracted from the development of the video game.
Cole Medeiros: And so I said, well, let me Let me kick around some ideas, we'll talk again in a month, if I have something that becomes interesting, we'll do it, and if not, you know, no harm. And, so we just kind of began a conversation that took about a year of like, making progress, kind of presenting it to him. A couple months [00:24:00] in, I have some things that's kind of, sort of playable.
Cole Medeiros: And it was all over Tabletop Simulator, by the way, the whole development, because he was up in Seattle, and so we were testing the game on there, and about a year in, he said, Wow, this feels like Stardew Valley to me. I think this is it. And, So he said, okay, what are we going to do now? And so we had a lot of art we needed to create at a lot of manufacturing and production, you need to figure out.
Cole Medeiros: And so I just kind of said, okay, let me, you know, I know some of it, but I needed to learn a lot to figure that out. Took about another year and then we sort of. Just announced it, you know, which was really fun just to surprise everybody. Hey, there's a board game and it's available right now.
Nate Kadlac: That's kind of great.
Nate Kadlac: You spent a year developing this. I mean, were you, were you being paid? Were you just kind of doing this on your own time? Like trying to pitch like a [00:25:00] year long pitch or,
Cole Medeiros: I wasn't being paid. I, I, I thought of it as just a really spectacular opportunity. And so, you know, I was working at the time and then I would just come home And work on it in the evenings or I would spend time on the weekends and like my daughter had just been born And so it's kind of like a very busy time it was a lot but it was it was a lot of fun too because I think because he's such an artist and he knows He knows the technical side of things, he knows the visual side, the audio side, kind of the whole experience of how he built Stardew Valley.
Cole Medeiros: It was so easy to talk to him about what was working or not. Like he would just say, well, he's like, oh, this is good. That part though, there's something not quite right with that. And, and he, he was right. You know, I would be kind of thinking the same thing. And so it was, the whole development process [00:26:00] I think that's smooth and as iterative as it possibly could have
Nate Kadlac: been.
Nate Kadlac: That's kind of a crazy story. I mean, that's really, you know, you think about a lot of people who, well, there's a lot of controversy around like, whether you should, especially when you're doing like spec work, you know, like whether you should get paid for it, do stuff for free. I think Tracy Fullerton talked a little bit about, you know, really just saying yes to everything like early, especially early on in your career and just trying to snag every opportunity you can get and, but later on, you know, I mean, You got to be a little bit more selective.
Nate Kadlac: You got a kid coming on, you know, and like, that's, that's a kind of a risk, but it does sound like you have this theme running through all of your decisions that it's, it feels very personal. Like it feels like you decide to work on the things that mean a lot to you. You don't know whether they're going to be successful or not.
Nate Kadlac: I don't know. Can you speak to, how do you listen to your gut so confidently? Like what, you know, like how, where does that come from?
Cole Medeiros: It's If something doesn't feel right, or [00:27:00] here's a good one. If you're having trouble finding motivation to stick to something, it might be a good indicator that you're sticking to the wrong thing or that you're missing some components.
Cole Medeiros: There's some piece about this. That's like kind of holding you up. And I find like the things that I get really excited about, I try to clarify what I'm excited about in that thing. That's it. If I know what it is, I'm like, Oh, that's my goal. That's what I'm doing. That's why this is so neat to me. And I almost envision it at the end.
Cole Medeiros: I kept imagining when I was working on Stardew, how cool it would be to hold the box in my hand and be like, wow, there it is. And I can kind of see it. And every time I did that, I was like, I would get kind of butterflies. It'd be like, Oh, that's so cool. And then, you know, versus other projects which pop up and seem kind of neat, but then like sort of fade away, or, you know, maybe the time just isn't right for [00:28:00] those things, or, or maybe they're not that exciting, or, I think it's just really important.
Cole Medeiros: I hear sometimes people think, well, I need to make this thing, or I need to do this, or it's got to have this, because people like that, or whatever. And it's like, you know, you've got to follow. What is it that you really like to do? What are you really excited about? Because that's going to be a truer barometer to Finding that like magic.
Cole Medeiros: Yeah. Love
Nate Kadlac: that. There's a, you know, I'm sure we all have our own pro like creative process for, for designing, building, whatever. What's your process. Do you tend to like, I don't know, do you tend to sketch things out generally? And, or do you try to get right into the physical nature of board games? Like, how do you go about creating a game?
Cole Medeiros: My process always tends to start with like, an emotion or like a sensation that I want, or just. Like for example, I've been trying to make for a long time a game that makes you feel like you're sitting [00:29:00] in the captain's chair of like a Star Trek ship and going on adventures. And so I, so I think, well, what is it about that that I like so much?
Cole Medeiros: What's the feeling that I want? And it's this feeling of like discovery and camaraderie and different challenges and, and not just conflict, but like exploration and diplomacy and these things. And so I kind of find the core of the idea, you know, that experience, and then I start thinking, okay, what is the format and mechanics that support that best?
Cole Medeiros: You know, is this, is this like a, more of an RPG thing where you're writing stuff down on paper? Is it cards? Is it board? Is it digital? And that's kind of like the starting point of that idea, then it's like the mechanics, and then it very quickly goes into, I like to sketch it, I like to kind of take a piece of paper, sort of draw some of the components out, you know, just like here's, there's going to be a [00:30:00] board, there's going to be dice, and then I can start to visualize, like, what does it look like on the table, how many decks of cards are there, to do what it is that Then I try to build it as quickly as possible, but that's the process.
Cole Medeiros: That's usually the part I get caught in because I'll, I'll build a bunch of it. And then, you know, it's, it's a bit of a slog, even to get that initial prototype together, which can be challenging. Do
Nate Kadlac: you think, board games and just like VR technology, is there, is there like a feature there that you are curious about or too early, not relevant?
Nate Kadlac: What's your take?
Cole Medeiros: You know, it's interesting. I do have an Oculus headset. Or the quest. I can't remember which one, but, it's a lot of fun to get in there and jump into these virtual worlds, especially when I'm playing with my friends. But I've downloaded a couple that are sort of more board game ish [00:31:00] experiences, and I find them neat and fascinating, but I don't know.
Cole Medeiros: Personally for me, there's something that I think I treasure about stepping away from the electronics and screens. And the fact that I'm holding the physical card and putting it down on the table and rolling dice and moving pieces that like, I just can't get that same feeling any other way than, than really being physically.
Nate Kadlac: Yeah. I agree. Especially like, it's such a intimate thing, you know, especially, you know, playing virtually or versus friends in your living room. Right. And, That's part of what I think makes board games so special is the community aspect. And I still play Catan, whatever you think of that, with buddies, you know, just, we get together every few times a year and play that.
Nate Kadlac: And, nothing beats it. You know, like it's just, could it really be any game to be honest.
Cole Medeiros: And that's kind of the magic is that when you find a game that kind of works for you and your group, it's [00:32:00] not really about the game. The game is just a facilitator. That conversation, you're sitting around talking about something and it's unfolding in front of you based on your inputs and there's just nothing
Nate Kadlac: better.
Nate Kadlac: Yeah. So looking back on your career, what would you have done differently? If anything,
Cole Medeiros: I think the one thing I always think of, I wish I had studied a bit more math, like probability and, economy design, things like that, just because there's a lot of elements. game design that function around numbers, or the chances for something to happen, and just having like a really sharp understanding of that, or, or how to build an economy, like, I will, I would consider myself more on the narrative side of design, and, you know, I know how to make a good mechanic, but, like, I worked with some really good economy designers, and I went, wow, this is a whole science of inputs and outputs, and frequency, and, you know, [00:33:00] And it's really, if you want to make something complicated, you really do need to My mathematical background is a little bit easier than I'd like it
Nate Kadlac: to be same.
Nate Kadlac: Yeah,
Cole Medeiros: it's important
Nate Kadlac: or at least it opens up different doors, you know, or it lets you think a little bit differently. What are some like resources if for people either wanting to strengthen their experience in game design or just getting started, do you have any? Books or videos or movies, you know, that come to mind.
Cole Medeiros: I tinkered around in game maker studio for video game design. And I thought that was a lot of fun. Also, I feel like unity has a lot of really good. I remember tutorials that I was walking through in the past board game wise. It was a I'm blanking on all the resources that I've. I [00:34:00] feel like the best thing to do if you want to make games is really just to start extremely small and just start making games.
Cole Medeiros: Like, it's, for me, the hands on ness of it and the fact that, like, with a deck of index cards and some pawns and dice, I can make all kinds of crazy stuff. And then you build it, and if it's small, you should be able to build it quickly, and then you test it, and then you see that feedback right away of, Are people interested in this?
Cole Medeiros: Are they, are they making choices that they find interesting? For me, that was always the best teacher because I just was constantly doing that. Seeing a lot of my ideas fail, but then you're like, oh, now I understand why that doesn't, you know, it seems cool in my head, but it doesn't actually work that well.
Nate Kadlac: Well, I don't know if this is a thing. I'm sure there's courses that exist, but man, it would be cool to have someone like you teaching a course on how to make a really simple Game, right. [00:35:00] Starting with, like you said, at some dice and cards or whatever, and kind of like getting people to get their feet wet a little bit would be really fun.
Nate Kadlac: So I would
Cole Medeiros: love to watch that too.
Nate Kadlac: All the time you have. Yeah. You know,
Cole Medeiros: I really like talking about game design. I, you know, as far as I never got formal teaching, I know there's courses now, like, some folks, I went to UC Santa Cruz and some folks say there's a game design. Program or class there, and it's real tricky because I'm, I worked with a lot of people who said, Oh, you know, I know how to make a great game, and I'm, I just kind of went like, I don't know, like, I know the process that eventually yields Something that is fun or discards stuff that is not fun But I, I would even hesitate to say, oh, I know I can just sit down and make a great game Because it is such a It's such a tremendous thing, but through tiny [00:36:00] little steps, you can find stuff that's fun and cool and kind of just like follow that thread.
Cole Medeiros: And that's, it's really kind of a detective
Nate Kadlac: game. That's great. Well, you know, I know, you're working on Stardew Valley right now. Is that just a kind of like a full time job for you? Is that, what does your day to day look like?
Cole Medeiros: Yes, that's my, I am an employee of Concerned Ape and, my job is mostly like Business and logistics, so I, I answer all the emails and read all the contracts and pay all the bills.
Cole Medeiros: And so my role is largely kind of just to make sure that ConcernedApe is free just to focus on game development and he doesn't have to worry too much about all of the stuff that comes from running the business side of things. But he still drives the ship, you know, he's, I meet with him once a week and kind of say, Hey, here's all the things that kind of came through.
Cole Medeiros: Are you interested in any of these things? And so we have a pretty, you know, [00:37:00] tight working relationship and, but then he can just like do the magic thing where he goes and works on the game or thinks about his next project and, and I can worry with about all the less exciting things.
Nate Kadlac: Well, what is, if you can talk about anything, is there anything coming next?
Nate Kadlac: What are you working on next? Or yeah, I'd just love to hear what's coming next for you.
Cole Medeiros: So probably the big one that I think is on the horizon for me is I want to bring dubs back into print. So it just went out of print maybe a year or two ago, but maybe a little bit longer than that. And so I have somebody working on.
Cole Medeiros: Brand new artwork, there's potentially an expansion that I'm excited about and just want to bring that back and say, Hey, like an anniversary edition or some kind of new version available.
Nate Kadlac: That's great. Okay. So you're thinking about an anniversary edition of gobs. When do you think people might be able to get [00:38:00] that into their hands?
Cole Medeiros: So it's still being developed, or, you know, artistically finished up, being made ready for print, but I'm, I'm hoping that that will launch sometime, I don't know, maybe middle of next year, middle to end of next year, so that's,
Nate Kadlac: So if people want to find you online or reach out to you and say, Hey, if, if you're open to that, where might they find you?
Cole Medeiros: Let's see, in general, I do have Twitter account, the dubs guy, but, if they Google me, I have a website and, they can contact me through that contact page and, yeah, I'm happy to get, Or answer any emails about game making or any of the games that I've worked on.
Cole Medeiros: So I love, I love talking to people
Nate Kadlac: about it. That's fantastic. Well, Cole, thanks so much for being here. This was such [00:39:00] a wonderful chat and really, really great for me to kind of dig into your world a little bit. That's a little unknown to me. So thank you for
Cole Medeiros: that.
