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Faith Ventures is about telling stories of Christians doing business for the glory of God. The virtue of market-driven work that serves other people is part of God’s design, and thus we should care about the principles of individual liberty that make that possible.
This podcast inspires listeners to realize how their faith in Jesus affects everything around us, including our work in the marketplace.
Norman:
[0:00] This is the Faith Ventures Podcast, a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute, telling stories of Christians doing business for the glory of God. If you appreciate this program, support the non-profit work of LCI by donating at LibertarianChristians.com/donate, and if you'd like to share your story, contact us at podcast@LibertarianChristians.com.
Norman:
[0:24] All right, everyone, welcome back to the Faith Ventures podcast. I'm Dr. Norman Horn, and this is where we are telling inspiring stories of Christians in business, doing business for the glory of God. And today I am pleased to welcome my new friend, Justin Bennett. He is the owner and proprietor of Strong Tower Consulting and operates a website called levelupyourfinances.com with a book by the same name. He's a personal finance expert and really helps his clients to get out of debt and just improve their financial lives using a strong faith-based approach, which is in level up your finances. To his credit, he's helped his clients get rid of $10 million of paid off debt. So that is incredible. I am so happy to welcome Justin to the show today to talk about some personal finance stuff and how we as Christians can get better at that in our lives. So Justin, welcome to the show once again.
Justin:
[1:17] Thanks, Norman. Excited to be here.
Norman:
[1:19] So Justin, I am just really happy that we're going to have this particular topic. We spent a ton of time in our kind of pre-show discussion, probably more time than I've ever spent with a guest before, just talking about a bunch of different stuff relating to debt and personal finance. And we kind of centered on that as like, this is stuff that we're going to talk about together for the benefit of our listeners. And so, you know, to start off, though, I think we need to kind of go over some of your personal story here. How did you kind of come into this work of helping people work on their personal finance? And like, tell us some of those stories that kind of got you here.
Justin:
[1:59] You bet, Norman. And, you know, it's interesting. My first job while I was in college, I was a mortgage collector. That's how I started my banking career. I was in banking for 10 years. And it's kind of an eye-opening experience where you make hundreds of calls a day to people who, if you don't make your house payment, are coming to get it. And I'm 18, 19 years old. I don't know what a budget is. I don't know, you know, a lot. I'm just learning myself. And so, as I mentioned, I went to a business school and I spent 10 years in the banking industry starting in the collections job. And I actually liked it, not the collecting part, but trying to figure out how to get people right side up again. But I went, wait, how does broke people pay people to help? I couldn't figure that connection. So I just kept pursuing my banking career. And by my mid 20s, I was a vice president of a bank and my career was doing fantastic. Personal finance wise, not so much. My wife and I together between student loans, car loans, credit cards, overdraft protections and medical bills, all of that, we added it up and we were over $100,000 in debt, not counting the house. And this is back over two decades ago so who knows what it would have been today, in the same kind of mentality.
Justin:
[3:10] And so at one point, we about lost our house to foreclosure. We've been on food stamps. So we've been on the broke train going, wow, this is not working. And so began to learn how money works. And as we were beginning our journey of getting out of debt, I learned of an idea called financial coaching. And it was new at the time. Very few people were doing it. I mean, back then, if you would have said you're a coach, they would have asked what sports team you're on. Now, you say you're a coach, it could be a coach to buy a couch for anything. And so those collection days came back. It was about a decade later where I'm going, oh, my gosh, I remember the fun of trying to get people right side up. And so I took a training class.
Justin:
[3:50] And then, you know, March of 2010, and then in May 2010, started Strong Tower Consulting. We started helping people one on one with their finances. And since then, we now do trainings at churches and workshops at companies. We've got our first book out, Level Up Your Finances. Anything we can do to help people win with money and gain financial freedom.
Norman:
[4:12] Well, and that's really important for us Christians. I mean, it's really important for anybody for that matter. But there's, I think, a particular perspective you bring into this as a faith-based consultant in this regard, especially when you're consulting with our fellow believers. And it has to do with things like stewardship and how do we think about our own situation in light of Scripture and things like that. How do you kind of bring that into the forefront?
Justin:
[4:38] Well, the book I read called God and Money, which is a really great book, and forgive me if my number's off, it's either 2,150 or 2,350, either way, over 2,000 verses on money and possessions in the Bible. So there's a lot of opinions of what the Bible says and what does it translate to and how do you bring it forward from Bible times all the way to 2026 and beyond. Yeah. And so one of the things in my book I talk about that I learned in my coach training back then, I was a counselor training, was what we call the seven biblical principles of personal finance. And there's seven things we should be doing, and these are very simplified down. You could probably find more if someone really wanted to get to it. But if we want to steward our money well, there's really seven principles to live by. One, God owns it all.
Justin:
[5:24] And when we die, we ain't taking it with us. So the first one is God owns it all. The second one, we should be saving money. Proverbs 21.20 says, In the house of the wise, the storehouse full of choice, food, and oil. What a foolish person spends everything they have. Proverbs 21.5 says, The diligent prosper. Well, diligent in the Google says to do something with excellence. And so that's what we need to be doing. Another principle is to learn to live on less than we make. Four is to get out of debt. The borrower is slave to the lender. Number five is do a budget. Now, you're not going to find the word budget in Scripture. In Greek, Latin, or Hebrew, but you will find the idea of planning is good. The idea of following through is good. Taking care of your necessities first, and then lastly, being generous, both tithing and giving to things like the poor, the needy, and anything that advances the cause of Christ.
Norman:
[6:18] Amazing. And so if you just, you know, sidebarring for a second, if only, you know, our federal government would learn to live by at least a few of those, we might be better off. That's interesting.
Justin:
[6:29] Who would have thought any of those would be a good start.
Norman:
[6:34] Yeah, for sure. So this is so you find this to be like even, you know, really helpful when you begin enumerating this to your to your clients. And like, what sorts of changes do you see? Like, what are what is like maybe the first light that kind of goes off when you are working with somebody like that?
Justin:
[6:52] You know, what's funny is I share those biblical principles, even with folks that do not share the same faith or any faith. I've had atheists go, I'm not a person of scripture, but those actually, yeah, like that speaks to me. My favorite story, I think we might even talked about this in the pre-call, was when I worked with a couple who said, listen, I heard you're a person of faith. I don't want to hear anything about it. And I said, but can I have 10 minutes? And they said, well, you get 10. And at the end of the coaching session, I said, what was the most powerful, life-changing thing you heard today? And the wife goes, I can't believe I'm saying that effing God stuff. And let's just say she said the non-PG way of saying it. And we both chuckled like you are right now.
Justin:
[7:35] And what's really cool is months into our coaching, when they're starting to win, especially with married couples, the number of times they've said those biblical principles help their marriage. And I go, but there's no Ephesians five. There's no first Peter three. There's I didn't give any of the marriage verses that we go to as Christians. And yet they said this is a game changer in their marriage. And so that's what's been so cool. One client I always remember, we're six months into coaching. And they told me, you don't realize how bad or how close we were to divorce. Like when we started working with you, we didn't tell you, but we were sleeping in separate bedrooms. To which the husband goes we're not now.
Justin:
[8:23] There you go.
Norman:
[8:25] Well, that's I mean, that's fascinating because I think, you know, we might have talked about this previously as well, that, you know, I'm kind of on a on a bit of a quest to understand how better to explain and bring better ideas about money to the church in the long term. And one of those things that we have to remember is that like money being a, is in part a function of mimetic desire. Like it is because it is the most highly desired good in a in an economy. It kind of holds a bit of a weird frame of status within our minds. And as such, this brings us into often conflict with others. And it's really interesting how when you do talk about like marriages and what are the problems that many marriages encounter, is it any wonder then that amongst those chief problems are finances? And that means in some level that like it gives us a new, grade of import as to why we need to be, especially as Christians who really care about, you know, honoring God, both in our personal lives, in our finances, but also in our marriages, especially because relationships are the most important thing here. How do we how do we think about that better? So what are some of the, for instance, things that you try to bring forward with couples in particular, like, how do you kind of reframe your mindset in order to fix some of these problems?
Justin:
[9:55] Well, we use what I call the 3P framework. We first have to find out what our principles are that we're going to live by. Then once we get our principles, then we're going to find out what process are we going to use to live out those principles that we are saying for our household we're going to follow. And then and only then can we develop the plan. Too often, we start with the plan first, and that doesn't work. And I'll give you an example of that in a minute. But when I'm working with a couple, whether they just got married two weeks ago or they've been having marriage problems for decades, the thing I get them to work on is this. We're not going to do it the husband's way.
Justin:
[10:31] We're not going to do it the wife's way. Together, you guys are going to go, what are our way of handling? What are the principles that we're going to live by? Because as long as it's, well, we're going to do this way or that way, it's never going to work. You guys have to take together what you've observed growing up, what you've done thus far, and going, what are our principles going to be? Now, Norman, you and I both know for some couples, it's going to be way easier to discover than others. But that's our starting point is what are our principles going to be? And let me give you an example why that is so critically important. I mentioned earlier that a lot of times we go to the plan first, and I call the plan your budget, which is you're going to manage your finances of how you're going to give, save, spend, and invest the dollars that you're given. Well, if you start with that and you don't have principles, you're going to have principles mismatched and situational principles where things aren't following. So an example of this, I had a couple of years ago who came to me and said, I want the most aggressive, fastest way to pay off our debt. And they had $150,000 in debt, not counting their house. What's the fastest, most aggressive way to pay off the debt? And I said, that's simple. That's the Ramsey plan. And they said, we're on it. And in the first six months, they paid off, Norman, $100,000.
Norman:
[11:46] Wow.
Justin:
[11:46] They sold a small piece of real estate. They did some other things. And I mean, they were crushing it. To my horror, a couple months later, I see two new car loans that weren't there before and credit cards that went up, not down.
Norman:
[12:01] Oof.
Justin:
[12:01] And I went, well, now, I do have some clients. Well, yeah. Well, I have some clients. They like to play April Fool's year-round. And so I was like, okay, are they trying to get my heart rate up and it's not true? Found out it was. And here's what the husband said. Well, those principles aren't sustainable. Those Ramseys, I go, stop. It's not about Dave. It's not about me. It's not about anyone. You guys have not defined what are your principles when it comes to debt. If you guys say out loud, I'm okay with borrowing money. Don't use Dave Ramsey. It will screw you up. It will make you more mad than when you started. But if you say Proverbs 22, 7 is a principle we're going to live by, the borrower's slave to the lender, well, in this case, the Ramsey plan would be fantastic. So I gave them one homework assignment, Norman, go on a date and make sure it's in the budget and discuss what are our principles around debt. They came back a month later and said that was one of the most productive dates they ever had. And they agreed for them, they said, as for our house, we're no longer going to get consumer debt again. I go, great. Now we can get out of debt because we have the right principles in place.
Norman:
[13:19] Excellent. Okay. So that's really interesting. And so this kind of leads us into another good discussion point here. And that is kind of the nature of debt itself and the way that we've already talked a little bit about that. The borrower can become slave to the lender. Um, and I think a lot of folks can get confused about this though. And you even alluded to that for a moment. Let's kind of delve a little bit into that. Christians kind of, I think mistakenly say that, you know, all debt is usury and that's terrible. And this has to do with some, you know, kind of holdover elements of, of even 19, 18th the 19th century America at times, and the way in which, you know, banking has evolved and so on. What is your perspective on debt? And how are we to use it wisely? And where do people really kind of start going astray here? How can we kind of think about this better?
Justin:
[14:21] Well, there's a few things I like to look at. Number one, nowhere in the Bible does it mention debt as a sinful activity.
Justin:
[14:30] So we have to start with that baseline. Even though I am not a proponent of debt, you will never see me go chase a credit card. Never going to happen. You're not going to see me take out a home equity loan to start a business. That's never going to happen. But I'm also understanding the Bible does not say debt is a sin.
Justin:
[14:46] When you look at real life examples, do I know people that have borrowed money and are doing well financially? Yes. Yes. But most of the ones that I know that have borrowed money, if they have good finances, if you could see their balance sheet, if you could see their cash flow statement, I could tell you the ones that I know that have borrowed tons and tons of money, they have a very stressed life or their marriage is strained, their health is strained. And I would say I would rather be on food stamps again because it was, no, I don't want to be on food stamps. Let's make that clear. But I have seen, I mean, I had a client years ago in the Midwest where they had, I think, a $7 million net worth. But it was so wrapped up in a real estate and they had so much debt. You could cut the digital tension on camera with a knife. You didn't have to be even in the same room. You didn't have to be a coach to go, there's a lot of tension here. And so the first thing we got to do is, again, debt is not a sin. But if God has not used debt as a blessing, should we avoid it? And my answer is it is yes. I mean, even a mortgage, the only debt I am okay with, if you take the word mortgage in Latin, in the root word, it means debt till death.
Norman:
[16:02] Hmm. I did not know that.
Justin:
[16:05] I would love to see mortgage bankers make that one of the new, they already got 18 pounds of paper to sign. I used to make people sign them. Can we have one document that says, you are signing, Noah, you are, you know, and the 30-year mortgage is not even 100 years old. Back in the day, a mortgage was five to seven years maybe. And so debt has only been in our American society a really big deal in the last several decades. And as of today, student loans are over a trillion dollars in debt, yet only 54% of people graduate with their bachelor degree in six years. We have over a trillion dollars in car debt as a society. We have over a trillion dollars in credit card debt. Mortgage debt, we're about 13, 15 trillion, or last I looked. So as just if we as a society took our debt and put it on one large table, we're about $20 trillion in debt. Our country is almost $40 trillion in debt. Our local cities and state governments are deep in debt. We have to use bonds to get schools and roads. Who's paying for all this? And what does the Bible say in Romans? Oh, no one anything.
Norman:
[17:22] Yeah. Why?
Justin:
[17:24] It's just a lot cleaner and a lot simpler. And when you read books that just simply study those who have done well with money, when you don't have payments, you can build wealth, which allows you not to enjoy life. But the purpose of wealth is to do what? To be generous, willing to share. And you can share more when you have more.
Norman:
[17:46] Absolutely. Yeah. And that's like this kind of betrays a, you know, again, kind of this fundamental aspect of prop, like miss misshapen identities, misshapen thoughts around the nature of money itself, in my opinion, at least. And the way in which mimetic desire like really distorts a lot of this and people can kind of even take advantage of that. And there is something to be said for, look at what's been going on. And you can see that some folks have recognized this and end up taking advantage of those who are willing to take on the debt. And this is where that borrower becomes slave to the lender. Like even, you know, it perhaps is a stronger statement than maybe sometimes it needs to be, but it's still relevant. And it does, like in the mentality of it, it's extremely relevant. And so where does that kind of leave us then as to like when, how do Christians need to approach the kind of taking on of debt overall? Like where does that kind of leave us then? We've kind of gone at a few different angles here. Where do we stand now?
Justin:
[18:58] You know, I, yeah, I first, you know, good stuff, Mormon. I first start with, I'll never forget the pastor my wife and I grew up with growing up. He always taught us, Read this yourself. Doesn't mean we can't have pastors. In fact, then we didn't have podcasts. Now there's podcasts and YouTube and all that. But doesn't mean we can't learn from others, but read this. It's amazing. If you just read this yourself, let the Holy Spirit do some work on you. I mean, it's interesting what's in here. And I would start with that point. And forgive me, I don't have the address right. I want to say it's in Colossians 3, and I could be way off pace, but I think it's in Colossians or maybe 1 Timothy. It's in the New Testament, and Paul wrote it. That's as far as I remember. But not to get caught up in useless arguments.
Norman:
[19:39] Yeah.
Justin:
[19:40] And you're not, but I know people who get in just a rage over how they interpret it. And I know people who are some of the most godly people on the planet. They have a credit card. I don't. But I'm not going to sit there and have an hard argument over a credit card. I don't like them. I can give 17 arguments on why no one should have them. And even if you're good with them, you're actually funding the very people that are going to take out the people who don't have money. But I'm not going to get in the Harris putting contest. I used to. I mean, back in the day, I love debates. Let's go. Let's let's do this. And anymore, I'm like, I didn't change anyone's perspective and no one changed mine. And so I think it's OK to have healthy conversations around it. But also remember, how is it serving someone well? And again, I'll bring up student loans. 54% of Americans did not graduate with a bachelor's degree in six years with tons of student loan debt. And I can say with my wife and I's life, I got my associate's degree, started my bachelor's degree and quit. Why? Partly because I borrowed so much money I couldn't borrow anymore.
Norman:
[20:50] Wow.
Justin:
[20:50] My wife was a single mom, went to college. She got her bachelor's degree, but not in six years, just under seven. And so there's an example just in our own household, how student loans hamstrung us. And then we did everyone else deferred the payment, deferred the payment, deferred the payment. And we finally got it paid off. Thank you, Jesus. But when you look at how much interest we paid.
Norman:
[21:15] It's massive.
Justin:
[21:16] Our interest is almost double what we borrowed. Well, how much of that interest, could have been used either in generosity or help to enjoy? The Bible says, God does say it's okay to enjoy our money. And I think we get that backwards in scripture. First Timothy 6, 17 through 19 says, to not build our hope on the uncertainty of wealth, but on God who richly provides us with all things to enjoy. But then it says to be generous, be rich in good works, storing up treasures in heaven. And that last part was a little bit ad lib because I just all of a sudden like, the verse left and I had to, well, that's all I got left.
Norman:
[21:56] That's all right.
Justin:
[21:57] I'm sure someone's going to say, you said the last verse wrong. I know I did.
Norman:
[22:02] That's that's all right. I think the spirit, the spirit is where it is, where it's at there. And I appreciate that. And I and this I'm glad you kind of brought up the enjoyment element. And because I want to get there eventually, but I want to kind of bridge that gap with another question that I think you're I think you'll like this.
Norman:
[22:22] Debt has a way of kind of accumulating because we often think, like in economics, we would say we have a high time preference. We prefer to have satisfaction now than satisfaction later. We would prefer to be able to spend now rather than save and spend later. And so that type of high time preference behavior can exhibit itself in terms of like, well, you'll be more willing to borrow sooner than later and take on more debt than you probably should. But this even gets exhibited in what we call the business cycle theory and the boom and busts that we've seen throughout, you know, throughout history. But what I think is kind of curious is that in some sense, it's still an inversion of potentially an inversion, I suppose. And that's where I kind of want to point the question at you of the of the kind of parameters of enjoyment. And so how is it then that by taking on debt, you're actually preventing real enjoyment?
Justin:
[23:27] I love that question. And I'm going to make a selfish plug for my book, Level Up Your Finances, with the very last story in the book. The very last story in the book, and this couple, they're believers, I'll never forget it. When they came to me, they were deep in debt, fighting daily. They said in my book, make sure you tell your audience. We were fighting daily for years over money and everything else around money. And the wife was working not one, not two, five jobs before meeting me to try to make all ends meet.
Norman:
[24:04] Woof.
Justin:
[24:05] Right? And we're not talking to someone. And they weren't 20 years old either. They were close to the retirement age. And I'll never forget it. We worked together and they followed the plan. They did all the work. They did really good. They paid off all their debt, house included. And they, after they did that and their debt-free everything, I'll never forget in one of our coaching sessions, the wife goes, hey, Justin. And you could tell she was a little nervous just talking to me about this. I have a question. She's like, don't judge me. I'm like, well, I haven't judged you yet. Don't plan on it. And can we go to Jamaica? I'm like, well, did you save the money? She's like, yeah. Are you using emergency fund? No. Are you using debt? No. Awesome. New homework assignment. Go to Jamaica.
Norman:
[24:48] Go.
Justin:
[24:49] When she came, her and her husband came back from that 14-day vacation. I asked, how was the vacation? And she goes, Justin, I have to share this with you. 30 years ago, my husband and I went to Jamaica. But when we went, we used debt to get there. I never enjoyed the trip for a minute. The entire time, I kept thinking, I got to go back. I got to go to work. I got to pay the debt off. I got to go back. I got to go to work. I got to pay the debt off. And in this very example, and this time I went 30 years later, rather, every day was slow. I could enjoy the entire thing. And about day 12, day 13 of our 14-day journey, it just felt time to go home. I mean, I wish I recorded it because the way she described the vacation round two was exactly what we all picture in our minds a vacation to be.
Norman:
[25:42] Yeah.
Justin:
[25:43] But their first vacation was exactly like what most of us have experienced. Where, yeah, we went on vacation, checked the box and went to cruise or we went to a nice island or we went to the nice mountains or we just drove around, whatever, but swipe, swipe, swipe to get there and we never enjoyed it. So that's an example. And I'll just share one more quick one. When I was working with a couple right before the pandemic, this couple came to me saying twice they've tried to get out of debt and they were over six figures in debt. Couldn't do it. They do six months well, get back off, go into debt. Tried it again. six months of awesome fell off the wagon got back in the debt, worked with me and on december 2019 was our six-month session they had paid off 32 000 of that debt and i'm going great job guys, january 2020 we turn on zoom i'm excited until the wife first thing she says is well i'm just gonna tell you, we got a credit card because our kids deserve a good christmas and we work hard and they got a good christmas, okay. Husband goes, oh, that truck I was going to sell to get out of debt. You're right. I am going to sell it, but I'm going to upgrade to a bigger truck, which means bigger car payment. And then they told me how they got in the debt to go to Cancun in February.
Norman:
[26:56] Oh no.
Justin:
[26:58] I mean, you talk about whiplash. And then I recall and I go, wait a minute, this is not the first go around. So I go back to my first form where I asked them how hard I can push. And they gave me a 10 out of 10 and they saw the form and then went, oh crap. Now I don't yell or swear I charge extra for that but, I really don't swear I mean obviously but anyway so and I go guys this is round three are you guys done? Are you done? go on a date just like I did that other couple I talked about earlier they went to Cancun right before the pandemic came back they already paid for it and I asked them how was your trip and I was like oh it was great it was great, the wife was just She looked numb. I go, how was the trip? She's like, I didn't enjoy any of it. And I go, was there another adult on this trip? She goes, yeah, you. I go, I know. I didn't even get to enjoy it. She goes, the entire time I knew we had no business being here.
Norman:
[28:02] We're broke.
Justin:
[28:03] And they got so determined after that life lesson, by the end of the year, they got out of all their debt. And the husband was able to switch jobs to a job that he couldn't wait for. They now have built their dream home with an acreage and a pond. He can fish. He loves fishing and hunting, and he can do all the fishing and hunting he wants on property. So I can give story after story about how I've seen people use debt to try to enjoy their life. And in fact, it brings nothing but stress and crankiness and bad things. But when you do it with money that you've earned and you've saved and you were diligent and then you go do the thing, whether it's getting ice cream or going on a vacation, you will enjoy a thousand times better when you paid cash and go that direction.
Norman:
[28:49] I think that's a that's a great lesson for us. And so it does bring us into, I know, a big emphatic point in your work, which is this element of true enjoyment, as a result of good financial management and proper principles, all of that. So let's kind of hit on that as we, you know, as our kind of last major section here, because I know this is really important to you.
Norman:
[29:15] Where do you where do you kind of start with this idea? Like, oh, actually, I'll start with a bit. And that is, often we Christians sometimes get into an almost ascetic look at just everything about life, that if we're not, you know, sacrificing as much as physically possible all the time, then we ain't doing it right. What's the counter to that?
Justin:
[29:40] Oh, boy, you may need part two.
Norman:
[29:43] Norman.
Justin:
[29:43] We may have to do that in a podcast, but I'll give you the short range of it. One of my daughters, she loves Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and she used to text his parents every day or favorite proverb of the day or whatever. And she was recreating Ecclesiastes, which I had read multiple times. Ecclesiastes 4.6, again, paraphrased, better one handful with rest than two handfuls with effort and a chasing of the wind. I am not kidding you, Norm. In the first 30 days, I quoted that scripture around other Christian business owners. A hundred percent, not one exception. It was like they heard it for the first time like I did. And their answer or their response was, could you say that verse again?
Justin:
[30:32] Better one handful with rest than two handfuls with effort, and a pursuit and a chasing of the wind and next to that is proverbs 127 or excuse me psalms 127 1 and 2 that says unless the lord builds it you labor in vain, it even says in there you get up early you stay up late to have more food. Yes, the Lord gives sleep to the one he loves. Now, is there a moment in time where we got to bust it to get out of debt or we got to get over a hump? Yes. I mean, if you think of the farmer, you know, their harvest season, their planting season, they're in a thing, right? They're working hard those six, eight weeks or whatever. And then they have the other weeks to repair tractors or whatever. So there is a time we got to put on the goju's. But I don't think scripture says, work yourself to the bone so that you can have more. I can't find a place scripture says that. In fact, what I do find is we are supposed to work and work diligently, but enjoy the rest God has given us.
Norman:
[31:45] Now, and there's even an interesting connection point here between even what you're saying and what we Faith Ventures episode from two episodes ago with Dr. Benjamin Long, who is a sleep physician. And yeah, it just came out like yesterday or no, last Thursday, brother. So you need to take a look at that. It's going to be great. You're going to love it.
Justin:
[32:05] I love it. And if I could share one more thing, I don't have this memorized yet, so I'm going to it. So I say it right. A brother in Christ and I, we meet about once a month to just go over various scriptures on money. And it's been really challenging and fun and those kind of things. And he shared something I've never saw before. I'm just going to share a portion of it for time's sake. But Jesus was talking about the Pharisees and the Sadducees, how they were tithing, and I'm not against tithing, but they were tithing and they were doing all the things, but they were neglecting justice, mercy, and faith. And that was the big point. But he takes it a step further, and Jesus says, Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and evil. Fools!
Justin:
[32:48] Didn't he who made the outside make the inside too? But give from what is within you to the poor, and then everything is clean for you. And I, for whatever reason, and I'm learning most Christians also have missed this, if you give to what is within to the poor, then everything is clean, meaning when you give to the poor and then go get some stuff for you, go enjoy it, baby. Yeah. But if all you do is tithe and stop, and it's all about you, that is not good. So how do we give to the poor? And I will tell you, as I've studied more in Scripture, I've only done a couple sermons in my life. And the very first sermon I ever did during the pandemic, someone called me, you got less than a week in Proverbs about work, money, and wealth. I'm like, okay, here we go. The number of times in the Old Testament, in the Gospels, in the New Testament, whenever I talked about generosity, it was always in reference to the poor. Usually needing food, clothing, or shelter. And oh my goodness, you can't miss it. If you really start reading scripture, it's all over the place. And to quote a friend of mine, the most fun you'll ever have with money is generosity.
Norman:
[34:08] Dude, I think that's an important kind of remembrance there too, is that when you are being generous, there's something distinctly fun about that too. Too. And in fact, there's like, even there are folks at like donor advice funds, like donors trust who were involved with, who like kind of preach this as well. And they understand this. And the folks at National Christian Foundation, similar, like we work with them too. And like, they kind of preach this as well. They understand that. And there's, you know, the joyful giver is one, not only who is commended, but it's like kind of a natural result of the give is the joy. And so I.
Justin:
[34:46] Yeah and to go back to their part too with that Norman is the number of clients I've met with this is one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about getting people out of debt, is when something strikes whether it's a hurricane or a local disaster or something in their family that's pretty wow um, I can't help. I don't have any money. And their heart is broken. I know some people, their oxygen, part that makes them breathe is giving. And if they're not generous, it's like someone took their oxygen away. And so one, it's not the only reason to get out of debt to be generous. It's part of it. But one of the reasons why is the average household that I have seen has $1,000 to $2,000 a month in payments not counting the house. Well, that's $12,000 to $24,000 a year. And for any of your higher income earners that's listening, it's not uncommon for the six-figure income earner to have $2,000 to $5,000 a month in debt, not counting the house. Now we're talking $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, $60,000 of which you can build wealth, but just as important or more, you can be generous. And when you don't have any payments, you can do so many things for so many people, and you can't go wrong with that.
Norman:
[36:00] So there's so many reasons then to take these principles into heart and to enable so many more things in life that are just better than what we see just on the margin there. I mean, being out of debt means that you can be generous, that your enjoyment will go up, that you have that type of peace. All of those things are just really worthwhile. And so I think that's, you know, a good reason why to pay attention to your, you know, and up your game in personal finance as you've, as you're teaching your clients and what we're trying to ultimately, you know, advocate for here on Faith Ventures. And so I appreciate all of this. And Justin, I would like to, of course, give you the final word before we kind of draw to a close here. You know, when it comes to your primary messaging, all the things you're trying to accomplish with your with your work, with your business, with your message, what are like, what would you like to encapsulate that in for the audience? And it's like, what's the biggest thing they can take away from here?
Justin:
[36:58] Well, you know, not knowing, you know, obviously where everyone's sitting right now that's listening, here's the big thing I would say. We always need to be a lifelong learner. And there's a lot of people before they see me, they're scared, they're nervous, they're afraid of what they're going to find out. There is no shame in saying, hey, I need some help. Regardless of income, regardless of stature. There's a proverb that's quoted in James and first Peter that God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and the number of times when I work with believers when they start handling money from a biblical lens it's not a get rich quick but peace comes faster in their life, they start getting the margin not just in money but in time and other areas of their life, so if If you're listening to this right now and you're just going, I am sick and tired of being broke. I'm tired of working my rear end off. I mean, a lot of my clients, when I meet with them in their consultation, they'll tell me, I make more money now than I've ever made before in my life that I've never felt so broke.
Norman:
[38:01] Yeah.
Justin:
[38:02] If that's you, I do a one hour consultation. And if you go to my website, Level Up Your Finances, where you can also find my book, there's a free consultation. It's one hour. I don't sell any insurance. I don't sell any investments. I mean, we need those, but I don't do that. If you're wanting a third party's opinion, that's not going to judge, not going to shame. Believe me, I've seen some crazy things. And if you haven't heard, I did some crazy things. So no shame or judgment here. But if you want hope, if you want to have a chance to say, hey, I want to do over with finances. How do I get out of this mess? My company is Strong Tower Consulting. We'd love to help.
Norman:
[38:38] Well, I think that that kind of accomplished everything I also wanted to do right here, which is make sure that we let everybody know where they could find you online. Any other places that, you know, we've mentioned your book, Strong Tower Consulting, Level Up Your Finances, anywhere else people can connect with you online?
Justin:
[38:53] Yeah, we're on the social platforms. We're on Facebook. We're just getting on Instagram. So if you see very few followers, we don't care. We're just now getting on Instagram. So Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn is where we are right now. But stay tuned as we start looking at more platforms to get a part of.
Norman:
[39:07] Awesome. Well, Justin, thank you so much for being a part of Faith Ventures here. This has been really fun. And I know we covered a lot of ground. So folks, rewind, listen a little more, take what you find inspiring. And I know that Justin will be proud of you for doing so. So Justin, thanks again. I really appreciate it.
Justin:
[39:25] Thanks a lot for having me on. I appreciate it. It's been fun.
Norman:
[39:27] Well, everyone, thank you for tuning in to Faith Ventures Podcast, and we will see you next time.