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[00:00:00] Announcer: This is the Build A Vibrant Culture Podcast, your source for the strategies, systems, and smarts you need to turn possibility into purpose. Every week we dive into dynamic conversations as our host, Nicole Greer, interviews leadership and business experts. They're here to shed light on practical solutions to the challenges of personal and professional development. Now, here's your host, a professional speaker, coach and consultant, Nicole Greer.
[00:00:32] Nicole: Welcome everybody to the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast. This is Nicole Greer and I am here with George today. Look at this book we've got in the mail. George is so generous. He sent me this book, _Superperformance: Eight Strategies to Reach Full Potential For Yourself _(start with yourself, people)_, Your Team, and Your Organization_. See, it's a cascading effect. You gotta start with the individual. So let's hear all about George. George Pesansky is a recognized leader in operational excellence with a career spanning more than 30 years in performance optimization (Hello, I think he's going to know what he's talking about people, so listen up!), executive coaching and systematic improvement. Oh, it's all about the systems, isn't it? Get stuff in a row. Get your ducks lined up. He's trained and coached over 10,000 professionals (he's exhausted, but he showed up here anyways!) across six continents and helped Fortune 500 companies and nonprofits alike drive measurable results.
[00:01:26] He is the founder of Capacity 2 Care-- don't miss this --a nonprofit encouraging superperformers to donate their talent, not just their time, to improve outcomes in their communities. Known for his clarity and his candor (and you all know I love truth telling, honesty and candor) and hands-on approach, George is now bringing his best practices to readers everywhere in his amazing book. Get it now on the Amazon, everybody. It's a fast company press book. It's Superperformance. I'm so glad you're here, George, welcome to the show.
[00:01:57] George Pesansky: Oh, thank you for having me. I can't tell you how happy I am to be here.
[00:02:00] Nicole: Oh, that's so good. That's so good. All right, so first of all, I want to know about your nonprofit. This is so good, getting people with the ability to perform into their community. Will you talk a little bit about that? We might want to know about that first.
[00:02:14] George Pesansky: Absolutely. I think it has such value for communities, especially for those nonprofit missions that, they're sometimes struggling. You know, they are always trying to make do with the resources they have. And if you think about the bottlenecks that they may experience, in some cases, the donations they receive, the money that they get, or even the time that people give them, doesn't really allow them to fix those bottlenecks.
[00:02:38] So when we donate our talent, we can sometimes really address these issues and really help those nonprofits have more capacity to care and to be able to get more of their mission out to more people. So we really love helping communities, helping people find those nonprofits and then help them with all of the process improvement work that we talk about in Superperformance, but also you know, really anything that they bring to the table as well.
[00:03:06] Nicole: That's fantastic. All right. And if somebody wanted to get started in their own community, or they wanted to see what other people were doing, where would we point them to? And they'll-- you won't go there now. You're going to listen to George first, everybody, and then you'll go there later-- but where would they go to find out about donating their time, their energy, and their Superperformance to their community?
[00:03:25] George Pesansky: Yeah, our company website, myblendedlearning.com, has a Contact Us especially for the Capacity 2 Care. But if you hit the Contact Us there, we'd love to hear from you and we'd love to help you.
[00:03:36] Nicole: Oh, that's so good. All right, everybody, let's, so we'll do that and of course, it's down in the show notes. Just go down there and look. Okay. All right. So this book, _Superperformance: 8 Strategies to Reach Full Potential For Yourself, Your Team, and Your Organization_. I absolutely love that. So the very beginning, you talk about on the path to enlightenment, and so I love that, George, because I'm all about building a vibrant culture and it's all about light. It's about waking up, smelling the coffee, turning the lights on, what's going on in here. So will you talk a little bit about how someone gets on the path to enlightenment?
[00:04:12] George Pesansky: Yeah. You know, one of the concepts that we kind of open the book with that's in that chapter that you mentioned is something called the Dunning-Kruger Effect that your listeners may have heard of or are familiar with. And the path to enlightenment is never linear, where it's just kind of a straight line to that ideal state and the Dunning-Kruger effect kind of points out that we often start to overestimate our abilities. And when we reach a point where we realize how much more we have to learn, how much more we have to do, and that we may not be as good or as successful as we could be, our full potential is where we really start to get onto that path of enlightenment. And my story of finding my initial kind of "Mount Stupid," you know, the place where we kind of
[00:05:03] Nicole: I love that. And he's talking about what's on page seven right now, everybody. This is so good. Mount Stupid. Go ahead.
[00:05:09] George Pesansky: Yeah, my, my moment on Mount Stupid really taught me how little I knew and how much I had to gain from listening to my team and really, you know, kind of focusing on trying to make tomorrow better than today.
[00:05:21] Nicole: That's fantastic. And so this Dunning-Kruger Effect is you've got this Mount Stupid, and what that means is I think I know everything. And then you figure out oh, I know what I don't know. I just found out that I got schooled, I guess, right? Into the valley of despair. And then slowly we go onto the slope of enlightenment. I will know more tomorrow than I know today. And this is going to increase our confidence and our competence. Yes?
[00:05:47] George Pesansky: That's right. Exactly, exactly. That ability to kind of recognize that there really is no end to the journey, but the journey is worth the prize.
[00:05:55] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. It's ringing a bell with Carol Dweck's, you know, growth mindset kind of thing. Right? I don't know everything I need to know yet.
[00:06:03] George Pesansky: Exactly. Yeah, for sure.
[00:06:05] Nicole: Yeah. All right. So you have a Venn diagram and hello, all you Venn diagram lovers listen up, 'cause I love a Venn diagram. On page 12, he's got the Superperformance Venn diagram and so will you talk a little bit about your Superperformance Venn diagram? 'Cause all of the nerds that listen to this podcast love a Venn diagram.
[00:06:25] George Pesansky: Oh, for sure. You know, I, I like being really visual for my day-to-day work. I basically spend all my time coaching and supporting people and I have kind of this magic pen that I draw with that really helps me with illustrating. It's like a whiteboard. I can never go into any room and see a whiteboard that's white. I have to then start drawing on it. So I love this particular Venn diagram 'cause I've drawn it in so many places and it really is about kind of finding the sweet spot around three really important questions. The what, the how, and the why. How these things all come together and when you have a vision, so you know kinda where you're going, you have, you know, a strategy, kind of how you're going to get there. And you also are kind of positioned for being able to execute, being able to deliver. You can answer those three questions and that really is this sweet spot that we call Superperformance.
[00:07:22] Nicole: All right, fantastic. So, imagine in your minds, everybody, or buy the book. On page 12 it says vision, right? And it overlaps with strategy and then action. So tell me again the three questions.
[00:07:35] George Pesansky: Yeah. The what and the how and the why. If you think about, having a clear vision, you know what you're going to do. If you are able to execute, you know how you're going to do it, and then the strategy is going to be what you're going to do. And of course the vision's going to be why you're doing it.
[00:07:49] Nicole: Okay, very good. If we repeat, we learn, don't we George? I mean, I've got to repeat to myself all the time. Okay. All right. So the very first thing you talk about is the vision. Like, what are you going to do? Right? So tell me a little bit about vision. You kind of bring in this baseball rule 5.05(a)(2). Talk a little bit about that!
[00:08:12] George Pesansky: Yeah. Really, really amusing story from my childhood. I think when you think about what the outcome is that you're trying to arrive at, what is the goal you're trying to have? You know, the analogy is, if you think about a kid's sports team, in my story, it's a little league game and, you know, the coach is focused on winning. And kind of telling all the kids that if we score more runs, if we stop striking out, we're going to win. And if we just are able to do those things, we would succeed. Well, you know, having a vision around being able to win the game is often measured by these lagging indicators, like the scoreboard in a little league game.
[00:08:53] But in order to win, in order to achieve that vision, and this kind of comes back to the Venn diagram, you've really gotta be able to look at the leading indicators, the things that you can control. And a great coach is going to teach the kids to kinda raise up their elbow so they don't strike out, or to keep their eye on the ball so that they can catch that fly out to the outer field.
[00:09:14] And that ability to focus on the indicators that help us perform, you know, that strategy and then the ability to execute is where all of these things come together in the sort of beautiful way. For me what I found was my ability to understand the rules was was my contribution. It was my, you know, ability to deliver a little bit on that "how" to help the team win.
[00:09:37] Nicole: Yeah. So if I am sitting here listening to this and I'm thinking to myself, okay, so I want to cast a vision for my future, for my personal life, my career. How do people actually go about that? You know, oftentimes I'll ask people this really powerful question, George. I'll say, what do you really want? And they're stumped. They're just stumped by this question. And that's my TED talk I have out there is, what do you really want? And I've been trying to help people for years. So what's your strategy to get people to get into this thing of thinking about what do you really want?
[00:10:10] George Pesansky: yeah. You know, one of the things that we talk about in the book is this concept of pseudo self-actualization. That you think you kind of know what you want or you think you are going to reach a level of success and you end up not really living up to your full potential because you set your goals too short. You kind of determined this definition of success was not really your full potential, and you stop trying as hard because you've gotten to that short-term goal. So when you think about a vision, in my opinion, it links directly to potential. And it's not about, you know, a particular goal, like a promotion or being able to buy a home or something that is relatively attainable but very short in its duration. I think you need to think a lot longer about a vision in terms of, you know, what your real potential may be. What are those things that you're really great at? What are those things that you love and what would it look like if you achieved the ideal state? If we asked the question, what's your ideal state? What is the ideal outcome? Not what you think you could do or what you think is even possible, but what's ideal? To me those are great starts for the conversation around a vision.
[00:11:28] Nicole: Yeah. Fantastic. And I love what you're saying. A lot, a lot of times I'll talk about the lifeline. You know, I'll be like, here's your past, here's your present, there's your future. What are you going to accomplish before you pop off the planet? You know? So, long term I'm all about it. All about it. Now you use this concept in the book called the Golden Hour. Will you talk a little bit about the Golden Hour?
[00:11:48] George Pesansky: Yeah. It is by far one of the most transformative concepts that we have used for the last 30 years in our practice, and we certainly lay out in detail in the book. And it really is about leading indicators. If you think about, you know, really any kind of company operation, we work a lot in manufacturing. We often have scoreboards just like the little league team does. And it is kind of the total throughput, the amount of downtime you have. We often measure the things that we are not doing well. The idea behind the Golden Hour is focusing on those periods of time where things are going well, and you are achieving that success, even if it's for a very short duration, you know, even less than an hour. And we often don't give ourselves enough time, effort, or energy to ask what is the root cause of my success? What is helping this 10 minutes, helping this hour be golden? And what are the things that I can do to make that Golden Hour two hours, and make it four hours? Can you stretch and extend that? You clearly still have to work on your weaknesses and on your problems, but I think many businesses, many organizations, many teams spend all of their energy on the glass being half empty. And how are we going to fix these things? And while they're doing that, the glass is leaking. All of the things they've already got are actually leaving because we don't know why. And if we don't know why, you can't sustain what you can't explain. So therefore, you know, those things slip through our fingers.
[00:13:21] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And I do think we have a bias for problems instead of opportunities. You know, we're always looking at what's not right? Instead of what's going correctly, right? So there's a little bit of Strength Finders can also slip over there. All right, very good. So in your Golden Hour. So I guess I could just look back over the last week or so and say, when was I cooking, doing great? What was going on there? What skills, traits? What was going on in the environment, you know? And take a look at that. Analyze that. That's so good. All right, so put that in your pocket, everybody. Golden Hour. All right.
[00:13:57] Now, one of the things that I love in your book is you have in chapter two, I just love the title. It's very simple title, but Unlocking Potential. And I tell the groups I work with, George, all the time, like I'll have like teams and I'll be like, look at the people at your table and I'll make 'em uncomfortable.
[00:14:12] And I'll say, I mean, like, really look at 'em, look deeply into their, their eyes, you know? And they're like, okay. But you know, really everybody I know has untapped potential.
[00:14:23] George Pesansky: Yes.
[00:14:24] Nicole: Oh, let's get it out of people. So will you talk a little bit about unlocking people's potential? You've got some great stuff to say about that.
[00:14:33] George Pesansky: Yeah. And I think, you know, the point you're making is the metrics matter. You know, and an analogy kind of a story that I often tell with teams is if you were going to have a medical procedure and there were two doctors you can go to, one just graduated from Harvard Medical School, the very top of their class, they went through their, you know, kind of, internships and so forth and residencies, and they've come back home to practice medicine, first week on the job.
[00:14:59] And the other is a small town doctor who's been here 30 years and went to the community college and went to the state school, but has basically practiced this exact procedure for 30 years without any problem at all. Which doctor would you choose
[00:15:14] Nicole: Oh, I, I think the guy that's done it for 30 years, he's got a little muscle memory.
[00:15:20] George Pesansky: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And this goes to the heart of potential and the heart of diversity of potential. Because you could easily look at the 30 year doctor and say, well, that wasn't an amazing school you went to, or you went to the community college, or you've been practicing in this small town and not necessarily achieving these outcomes. But you also can have a flawless record and a very complex procedure, which makes you truly the best, and that really is fulfilling your potential in practicing medicine. But if I had a son or a daughter who decided they'd like to attend medical school, who am I going to take them to talk to?
[00:15:58] Nicole: Oh, you're going to try to get that kid in Harvard, right?
[00:16:01] George Pesansky: Exactly. Because the kid, the kid from the Harvard Medical School has demonstrated their potential in achieving all of the possible success in attending medical school. They haven't yet demonstrated, you know, kind of their proficiency as a physician, but they absolutely demonstrated their potential in being a student. So it kind of matters what your skills are and kinda what your potential is and what you have to offer. And I think great leaders are the ones who can sort of find and listen and learn what are the opportunities, what are those potentials that the team offers, and how do I assemble teams? How do I encourage collaboration in teams so that we as a team are able to really achieve, you know, that's the saying of the we versus me. Let's let's attack these things as a group kind of crowdsource them versus tackling them on our own.
[00:16:56] Nicole: Yeah, that's right. And you know, I just got my SHRM magazine in the mail, George and the Chief Human Resource Officer for Cisco has a little blurb in there and she says, you know, the number one thing you can do with your people is find out what they're capable of.
[00:17:14] George Pesansky: Yes.
[00:17:14] Nicole: It's like so simple, but we're not doing it. We're, I don't know what we're doing. It's like the work gets done through people. Find out what they're capable of. I love that.
[00:17:24] All right, so also in the chapter about unlocking potential you give a shout out to, you know, all of us folks that are over 50 Stephen Covey's _7 Habits of Highly Effective People_. And you talk about another Venn diagram, which is the what, how, and why of a human. What do they know, what do they want, desire, and how do they do the things they do, their skills. So will you talk a little bit about that diagram 'cause that's how we can figure out what the potential is.
[00:17:52] George Pesansky: Yeah, this Venn diagram, like the last we talked about, really blends these three perspectives around having clarity of your goals, you know, that vision, and having an expectation of kinda why this is important to me, what the outcome is that I'd like to achieve. But also being really clear and specific about what that outcome is. I think ambiguity is the enemy of success. You know, you can kind of have a lot of challenges if you're not clear about what it is you're trying to achieve. And then the thing that I think most people get hung up on, and the vast majority of the coaching that I do really focuses on, is getting people to realize the how is the easiest part. That we often kind of get wrapped up in the tools that we're using or the project that we're managing or the activities that we're doing. And in most cases, the waste, the frustration, the issues we're experiencing are because there's not a clear what, and there's not been a good articulation as to why it's important and why we need that outcome.
[00:18:55] And when you have a clear what, and you have a really clear articulation of why it's valuable, the how starts to become a lot more clear because the things that are not helping you get there are just not worth really focusing on. But ambiguity and the what and the why starts to create a lot of ambiguity in the how, where we start going in a lot of different directions and that often is exactly why that project is late or we really get frustrated with the situation we're in.
[00:19:22] Nicole: That's right. And the why we're doing it, I think is so essential in terms of like the energy I'm going to give to this thing, right? Because if you start with the how, it starts to sound, I'm going to use a four letter word right here, everybody. It gets to be hard. H-A-R-D.
[00:19:41] George Pesansky: Yeah, for sure.
[00:19:42] Nicole: Right? But if you believe in it, you're like, oh, we can do that! But if you're like, oh, we gotta do that? That'll be hard.
[00:19:49] George Pesansky: Yeah, yeah. I, I totally agree. And you know, it's interesting in the sense that we often talk about micromanagers and how frustrating that is, that somebody is micromanaging my process or my issues. And if you think about it, micromanagement is a function of getting involved in the how. And as a leader, as a manager, as a superperformer, you really want to focus on making sure your team has the what or the why. And that it's really explicit and clear what and how we can determine that outcome, but also why it's important and sort of what options and flexibility there may be in that what. And then let them build those systems and processes to really own how we create that outcome. It's ideal formula.
[00:20:33] Nicole: Oh, I love it. Yeah, and what you're saying, well, here's the thing about micromanaging. I've got to say, since he brought it up. George, you brought it up I've got to talk about it for a second. So, micromanaging. Some people need to be micromanaged at the beginning of a process, because what we're doing is we're putting expectations in place, and the why is a big part of the expectations. And so, you've heard me say this before listeners, but I'll say it again. This is from Don Carroll, "Uncommunicated expectations are a premeditated opportunity to be disappointed." And then you overreact and you get in there and you micromanage. But if you did what George said, and you got the why really, really clear, and the what really clear and get the heck out of the way. You know what, and, and you know, here's the thing. Your people back to the Mount, what is it called? The Mount of Stupid?
[00:21:25] George Pesansky: Mount Stupid.
[00:21:26] Nicole: It's like, you know, 'cause your people are thinking Nicole doesn't really know what she's talking about right now, you know? But if they respect you and you let their genius shine, they're going to just love you anyway, so Okay. So, so good. All right. Love what you're saying.
[00:21:40] George Pesansky: One, one more point, maybe on point of micromanagement and, you know, it's, it's in a later chapter. Again, you know, with the experience of coaching all of these process improvement professionals who are working often on projects that are like transformational for that organization.
[00:21:55] Nicole: Right.
[00:21:56] George Pesansky: Really, really big changes that are happening, you're really never able to just set that goal. It's a lot like setting a goal to say, I'm going to earn a PhD. Well, yeah, that's a great goal. And people who attain that really have put a lot of work into that outcome. But no one wakes up every morning working on that thinking it's going to feel so good to have doctor in front of my name. And that's the whole purpose, right? They break that bigger goal into smaller goals. And I think this question around what, why and how, when I'm trying to help a team achieve something that's really got, you know, an enormous weight of it teaching them to take the big thing and break it into smaller things. Take the big what and make it a smaller what? Take the big why and make it a smaller why. And if we're struggling to meet those timelines, struggling to have that success, break it down again and break it down again, until we are achieving that success, we are kind of overcoming that barrier. So this is, to me, a universal truth. It's just a question of
[00:22:54] Nicole: Ooh that's a big... don't that everybody. Universal truth. This means it's real real.
[00:22:59] George Pesansky: Exactly. Are we going to, are we going to have like a big what and give teams a lot of autonomy or are we going to have a small what and really try to check in with them and help them progress with a lot more detail.
[00:23:10] Nicole: So good. And the reason why I had to interrupt you, George, is because universal truths are hard to come by.
[00:23:17] George Pesansky: They are.
[00:23:19] Nicole: And when I do training with people, I'm like, okay, listen, y'all, this is just true. Like you, if you argue with it, you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the universe. Okay. And that's a no win. Okay?
[00:23:32] George Pesansky: Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. A lot of the folks who have been in my classes or training or coaching will probably laugh at this because I talk about this universal truth and it really is breaking the big rocks into small rocks. If you're talking about any process improvement methodology, if you're talking about any problem solving tools, really anything at all, no matter what you name it, what book it came from, they all follow the same logic. Take the big thing and make it into a small thing.
[00:23:58] Nicole: That's right. And, you know, so I have this coaching methodology that I use. And instead of saying goal setting, I say this thing, what is our next right step?
[00:24:07] George Pesansky: Yes. Target condition.
[00:24:09] Nicole: Just this little thing that we could do, like get us, you know? And then as John, who wrote the change management books? Help me, help me. He says, in his eight step process, he says, get a small win.
[00:24:21] George Pesansky: Yes.
[00:24:21] Nicole: Get a small win. You don't need this, this big huge thing.
[00:24:25] George Pesansky: Yeah. It's exactly the formula that Toyota uses in the Toyota production system. It's called a Target Condition. It's just taking the big thing and breaking it into what is that very specific thing that's kind of preventing me, it's in my way, it's the barrier that I have to overcome. Yeah. It's a universal truth. It exists really in all great thinking when it comes to change or improvement.
[00:24:44] Nicole: That's right. That's right. And it's also making this thing bubble up in my mind, you know, like the five whys, why is this happening? Why is this happening, why is that happening? You know, I mean it's just so good. Okay. Very good.
[00:24:56] Announcer: Are you ready to build your vibrant culture? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with their strategies, systems, and smarts to increase clarity, accountability, energy, and results. Your organization will get lit from within! Email her at nicole@vibrantculture.com and be sure to check out Nicole's TEDx talk at vibrantculture.com.
[00:25:26] Nicole: All right, so unlocking potential. I just want to kind of poke on page 58 and 59. You give people an outline for action. So one thing I love about your book --and so people, go get the book, _Superperformance_-- is that this has got actionable, applicable stuff, okay? And so that's what we all want in this world. You say, "No matter where or when or who is involved, if you can create clarity, you can make decisions and take action. When you eliminate ambiguity, you erase doubt. When the direction becomes obvious, you act instinctually. You have utility." And the thing I'm poking on is you have utility. What do you mean by that?
[00:26:11] George Pesansky: Yeah, utility is a term that that I've used and it often kind of raises eyebrows because so many people talk about value and creating value. It goes back to the little league example, that that is a lagging measure. It is a score of the game of did a customer buy? Did somebody agree? Did they support? And that determines whether something has value.
[00:26:34] Utility is your capacity, your capability to create value. And I think utility is such an important perspective for anyone who wants to be that superperformer, wants to really achieve their potential because it's about being prepared to execute and being able to take the skill, the knowledge that you have, and be able to apply it, be able to use it.
[00:26:58] And when you have teams that are kind of hungry, kind of thirsty for the problems, for the opportunities, they have great utility. Because there's a capacity for them to execute. There's a capacity for them to create value and to solve problems or to create, you know, great products. So utility is a leading indicator of your ability to execute, your ability to deliver.
[00:27:20] Nicole: Mm. So good. And, you know, here's the thing about careers. I bet you this happened to you. And George, you were in the military, correct?
[00:27:28] George Pesansky: I was, yep.
[00:27:29] Nicole: Yep. And so, you know, there's differences between soldiers, right? And there's differences between employees and utility is like when the leader stops and thinks, who should I get to do this? And they're like, get George. Get Nicole, she can do it. She'll figure it out. You know, it's like this figure outer thing or something. I call it figure outer.
[00:27:48] George Pesansky: It is. I, I actually I just had an article, an opinion piece, published in Fortune.com, and it actually talks about utility and AI and I think there's a huge application around what AI can do for knowledge. It's the ultimate librarian. You know, you have question going to be able to retrieve and provide those answers, but there's a difference, in my opinion, between knowledge and skill. Skill is your ability to potentially apply that knowledge. You know, it's playing a musical instrument or driving a car. And I think about teaching both of my sons to drive and the knowledge of what are the rules of the road and how does an automobile operate, that's the easiest part. And that's exactly what AI knows.
[00:28:35] The part that has now taken 10 years and probably will take another five or more is the actual driving part. The actual application of that knowledge. And I think that's where people can really leverage tools like AI. It's also how they can approach problems to say, it's not how much I know, it's what I can do. And what I can do is going to be measured by your utility. It's your ability to execute.
[00:29:00] Nicole: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And I'll tell you, that's how I got ahead in my career. It was just I tried stuff and I did stuff.
[00:29:07] George Pesansky: Yeah.
[00:29:08] Nicole: So, you know, I know. Never once did I say, oh, that's not my job. I thought, oh, I bet you that's my job. That was my attitude, you know? So that makes you a superperformer. Okay. Now I just said this whole thing about expectations, but chapter three says, Escape from the Prison of Expectations. Okay, so we've got a dichotomy or something going on here. Talk about escaping from the prison of expectations.
[00:29:31] George Pesansky: Yeah. You mentioned in my bio, my introduction, I talk about my candor. This has gotten me in trouble more than once. You know, where I've kind of, I've kind of, you know, offended people. It's because I'm trying to speak a truth. And the truth is that if you create goals that have incredible visibility where we're really, really making sure that if you don't deliver, there's going to be a problem. Then when people know that failure is not an option, it's going to create embarrassment or worse, then they're very careful about what that goal is. They're going to negotiate that goal. And what's going to happen is even if they're capable of kind of going beyond that goal, you know, doing something that may be amazing, there's little incentive to do that. Because if I do something absolutely amazing, then what is going to be the expectation next time that I'm going to have to continue to do those amazing things? And now the bar got raised. Now if you think about it, as an owner, as somebody who'd like to kind of get performance out of an organization, that's what I want. I want the bar to raise and I want everyone to be doing their best. And I think that's what my team does.
[00:30:42] But then when you go look at the situation and say, well, how many times has the team failed? How many times did they not deliver? And the leadership says, never. My team always delivers. And I said, well, they're locked in the prison of expectations. Because what they've done is they've negotiated something they can always do. And how do you know that you're truly free? Sometimes you make mistakes, sometimes you don't hit those objectives because you're basically leaving it all on the field every time you play.
[00:31:10] And when those players leave it all on the field, they don't win every game, but they walk away knowing that there's nothing left, nothing else I could have done to win. There's a really big difference, you know, between that and a team that just continues to kind of play against the JV squad so that we have a flawless record. That's really what the prison of expectations is, is kind of holding yourself back so that you can always win.
[00:31:36] Nicole: Hmm. That is so good. And I think what's at the root of that is like ego takes over or something. Right? It's like, we don't want to look stupid. You know, it'll be on the Mount of Stupid again. Right. But I think, you know, one of the things I always say George, is I say, you know, like, everything gets to be messy.
[00:31:55] George Pesansky: Yes.
[00:31:55] Nicole: If it needs to be, you know?
[00:31:57] George Pesansky: Yeah. Well, the culture of allowing failure is I think a valuable one because again, if you're always winning, it's like sales, you know? I've, I've got friends who are just amazing sales professionals, and you know, what they'll say is, is that if you're going to raise price on a particular product, you don't really know if you raise the price high enough until you have a customer say no. Until someone says, well, I'm not going to buy it anymore. I think it's the same thing with performance. It's the same thing with potential. If everyone is always winning, they're not fulfilling their potential because they're really not stretching themselves into territory that they've never been able to achieve. They're not setting goals that are potentially higher than what they could have done. It's okay if you don't hit it as long as you left it all on the field and you learn from it. You kind of understand what were those root causes of my success, but also what were those barriers and problems that we would do differently next time? That's how organizations really ladder up. That's how they get that next level.
[00:32:57] Nicole: Yeah. People next level, organization = next level. That's how that works. That's an absolute truth too, by the way. Write that one down everybody. All right. So I love that.
[00:33:08] Chapter four. You mentioned this just a little bit ago, but let's poke on it again. "Learn the potential of we versus me." Okay. So this is going to talk a little bit about like maybe teams and collaboration and communication and all the things everybody tells me they need.
[00:33:25] George Pesansky: Yeah. Again, it's a little bit of what you mentioned earlier around ego. And I think leaders can have what I might call main character syndrome where they kind of start looking at things as the spokes around the hub and they are the hub and everything kinda radiates out from them. And the reality is, is that there's no organization ever that was the spoke and wheel, you know, spoke and hub, that succeeded at the same degree that a decentralized, empowered organization can because you can only be in one place at one time doing one thing. So as soon as leaders recognize that it's going to be a far better organization that I don't need to be here. If I articulated a what I've articulated a why, and teams are now taking those things and using and building systems and really stretching themselves to achieve outcomes, there's going to be a lot more happening, a lot more getting done than I could have ever done on my own. And that concept of really recognizing that you're not the main character in the story, that every one of those people creating value should be the main character and and you're just there to support 'em.
[00:34:39] Nicole: Hmm. I love that. So I, in my mind when you said you're there to support 'em and you're not at the center of the hub, I went to Robert Greenleaf's upside down pyramid, servant leadership thing in my mind immediately. So if y'all don't know that one, that's a really oldie, moldy. That's from the seventies, everybody. Get that book out and read it. But it says that the leader empowers and then all the great process goes this direction instead of like top down, right?
[00:35:04] George Pesansky: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:35:05] Nicole: Good. All right, so on page 95, you have this header that says, Assertiveness and the Ugly Baby. Could you please explain?
[00:35:13] George Pesansky: Yeah, yeah. This is again, one that sometimes, it's a funny story.
[00:35:19] Nicole: I love stories.
[00:35:20] George Pesansky: You know, being able to tell people the truth-- you know, we often use the word collaboration. And when people use that word, I think they use it as just a conversational term of what collaboration is. But not many people have really explored that definition or really tried to understand, well, what exactly is collaboration? And there's a lot that's written and we talk a little bit about the definition from our perspective, my perspective in the book. But it's, it's really about, you know, being able to speak your mind and be able to tell people exactly what you think in an environment where people are completely open-minded to listening.
[00:35:59] So when you have people who are listening and you have people who are speaking what their perception, their belief is, you're in a place where you can collaborate. So the Ugly Baby is a technique that I've used with teams for years. Where we basically, we basically introduce something that really gives people license to be critical. And I use that story of the ugly baby in the sense that if you think about a parent with their new baby, you know, I can think of my father holding me as a child and saying, look at the ears on this kid. And, you know, being able to say, okay, yeah, you're right. He has pretty big ears, so there is a little bit of an ugly baby here. But we can also then talk about how his nose isn't quite right because dad already kind of said, there's some things about the kid that's a little bit weird, so I'm not going to offend anyone. And we can have this very open truth when leaders can put aside that ego and say, the system that we've put in place, the one that I led, the one that I've championed, it has some issues and there are some things about it that if I could go back, I would change. And everyone's going to look at each other and say, oh, we can start talking about this now.
[00:37:07] Nicole: Right. Hot dang. 'Cause I got issues with this, the sucker. It's bad.
[00:37:12] George Pesansky: But if the first sentence is, look at my beautiful baby, then yeah, that's an absolutely gorgeous baby, right?
[00:37:19] Nicole: That's so good. That's so good. And so that, that thing you're talking about the candor thing. I say in my trainings all the time, George, I'm like, would you all like for me to practice truth telling, honesty and candor?
[00:37:32] George Pesansky: Yeah.
[00:37:32] Nicole: And, you know, 99.9999% of people will be like, yeah. Like, don't, don't tell us a fib, don't tell, you know? So introducing this and being assertive about it, I think is really important. And I think the other thing that you're talking about, just for my own clarity, I'm thinking about what you're saying, is that we need to be able to give and receive feedback. We need to know how to do that.
[00:37:55] George Pesansky: Yeah. Yeah. And there's so many things where you can kind of trace these same concepts. You also often hear about active listening, and it's something that's really hard to practice because we often will start thinking about the next thing we're going to say while somebody else is speaking to us. And what that means is, is we're really kind of pursuing our agenda, or our argument, not really being open-minded and trying to process and understand what somebody else's perspective is. And, you know, that's the definition of empathy, really understanding somebody else's perspective. So, you know, good collaboration, active listening, they all have these same kind of give and get relationships that if you're not really trying to listen, if you're not really trying to see things through somebody else's eyes, but also being willing to tell them what your beliefs are and have them be able to listen as actively, you're not really in that beautiful place of collaboration. You know, you're probably compromising or even competing because there's agendas that we're trying to push each other with.
[00:39:01] Nicole: So good. And as you're talking about it, and you brought in the listening, one of the other things, everybody who's ever listened to this podcast knows, is that I want all of you to go get a little coaching certificate from somewhere. Like sign up, go to the ICF website, you know, and go there and find a program. There's ones that are $1,500 and ones that are $150,000. Pick one in your price range and do that because, George, don't you think, in your experience, the best thing I have ever learned in my life is to listen and to ask a good question.
[00:39:32] George Pesansky: Oh could not agree more.
[00:39:33] Nicole: Oh my gosh.
[00:39:34] George Pesansky: We teach a rather expensive class for really large corporations that basically send us their best and their brightest to become expert problem solvers, expert facilitators to drive change and improvement in their organizations. And it's basically a six month long program. And I tell everyone at the very beginning of that program that all we're really going to do is teach 'em how to ask questions. Now there's a lot of fancy tools and statistics and data and facilitative techniques and things that are going to definitely help give you lots of kinds of questions to ask. But once you kind of master the art of recognizing that questions are going to be the key to opening conversation and conversation is where answers are going to exist. And the more specific questions you can ask, the more detailed the conversation becomes. As soon as people kind of figure out that formula, then they're going to be superperformers because it really is the core, it is the heart.
[00:40:34] Nicole: Right. And if you're asking lots of good questions, you'll get your your what and your why and your how, all figured out. And if you don't ask good questions and you don't listen, you're walking out of that meeting with no what, no how, no why. It's a mess. All right. So see everybody, me harping on the questions, even George agrees with me and he is super smart. Okay.
[00:40:53] George Pesansky: Oh, I wouldn't...
[00:40:54] Nicole: Alright, so, on page 100-- which I think is profound that it's page 100-- you talk about building cooperativeness. So one aha I got from George's book everybody is that collaboration requires cooperativeness, say cooperativeness. That's a challenging. It's got so many syllables and vowels, everybody. Alright, so you point out in here, what's your personality type? And so, George, I bet you, you know all the personality assessments in the world. I'm certified in like half of them. Sure. Because I think -- okay, so here's my powerful question, George-- what is it like to experience you? That's my powerful question.
[00:41:33] George Pesansky: That's a great,
[00:41:34] Nicole: isn't that great?
[00:41:35] George Pesansky: It is a great question. And you know, there are so many of those personality assessments out there, but I do kind of believe in the Jung theory that, you know, core, that we all have a personality type.
[00:41:48] Nicole: Oh, yes.
[00:41:48] George Pesansky: That there are these natural abilities that are kind of our preferences that we have. So when you ask me the question, what is it like to experience me, my personality is one, in a professional setting where I'm going to need to be extroverted, I'm going to need to kind of put myself out there, I'm going to need to make sure that you hear my opinion and I really want to interact with you to listen, to learn, to understand.
[00:42:15] But my wife, my family knows me as somebody who really would like to be the wallflower at the wedding and not necessarily go and work the tables of, you know, introducing and...
[00:42:27] Nicole: Right. Meeting all the cousins and the aunties, that's not your thing.
[00:42:29] George Pesansky: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so, so I'm an introvert who is an intuitive thinker, who sees things from the big picture, who makes decisions with facts. And I also have the perceiving personality type, and it drives my wife absolutely insane because I'm really about letting it ride. Let's figure it out at the last minute, make sure we have all of our options on the table. And thankfully, she's the eternal planner, making sure that we have some structure and organization to our lives.
[00:43:00] Nicole: God love her. She keeps it straight, doesn't she?
[00:43:03] George Pesansky: She does, in some
[00:43:04] Nicole: I think you just told us your Myers-Briggs. Is that what you just did?
[00:43:08] George Pesansky: I did.
[00:43:08] Nicole: Okay. What is your Myers-Briggs? So everybody listen up. Myers-Briggs, Jungian. Okay. So this mother-daughter team, Myers Briggs, reads Carl's stuff and they're like, oh my gosh, this is good stuff. And they create the Myers-Briggs. It's been around for a bazillion decades and it's really good stuff. Tell us what yours is and why you like the Myers-Briggs. I'm curious.
[00:43:32] George Pesansky: Yeah, so mine's, I just described the INTP, which is my four letters and yeah, the Myers-Briggs kind of organization basically didn't create personality type. They created a mechanism for trying to understand your personality type. And I really love the Myers-Briggs and I know that it has, you know, some controversy and challenges.
[00:43:57] But I think, you know, those controversies and challenges are when you look at it too superficially, when you look at it as a tool, like any other tool, and it's just one piece of information alongside all kinds of other pieces of information, I think it can provide a lot of great insight and it can provide a lot of really, really good direction. And I've been certified in it for well over 20 years now, and every single one of those students that I've trained, we use it in our training programs to help them understand themselves so that they can better support the teams they train and they interact with.
[00:44:29] Nicole: So good. Okay, so don't miss that. This is one of the mirrors that you can turn inward and take a look at. What is it like to experience you, the Myers-Briggs? Both George and I are certified in this thing, so all you gotta do is give us a call and we'll set you up. We'll get your team, get your team trained up. Because the s in my S.H.I.N.E.™ coaching methodology, the S is self-assessment. Like you can't know what it's like to experience you if you don't sit your fanny in a chair and you look at what it's like, you know? And people I don't know if they do this to you, George, but they take the assessment and they're like, I'm not sure this is right.
[00:45:06] George Pesansky: No, every
[00:45:07] Nicole: And I'm like, you took it.
[00:45:08] George Pesansky: Every time. And I'll tell you a quick story that I think you'll find very humorous. I shared my personality type is INTP and of course the P, the perceiving, as I described it, was really, you know, my preference is to basically let it ride.
[00:45:21] Nicole: Yeah, let's see what happens.
[00:45:23] George Pesansky: Just sort of work things out as they get to the finish line. And my wife is structured, organized. She's the one who has a list, making sure that we're on schedule, everything is working. She's a J, she gets, she gets satisfaction from closure. If there's a decision we can make, let's make it and get it behind us.
[00:45:42] So you mentioned earlier that I'm a veteran and I spent a good part of my career in the Army. And when I first was introduced to the Myers-Briggs assessment tool, I came out as an INTJ. And it was strong. The clarity was a hundred percent clear. And for a long time, I told people I was an INTJ. I even went to this certification, you know, and, and was kind of carrying this INTJ perspective. And then my wife and I were having a conversation about personality and work and I was explaining the whole Myers-Briggs thing and I was telling her what I thought her personality type might be, and it was all,
[00:46:19] Nicole: That could a mistake with your wife. Be careful.
[00:46:23] George Pesansky: Yeah, well, so as I do all that, she looks at me with this puzzled look like. What do you mean that you're that J thing? What are you talking about? And I'm like, well, yeah, I'm very structured and organized and planned because in the military, that was the definition of success, was to be organized, structured, and planned. And in corporate America, that's what gets you promoted. That's what we want. We want rules, we want structure, we want organization. And in that moment, I realized I was not being honest with myself. You know your analogy of looking in the mirror. I wasn't looking in the mirror. I was seeing who I wanted to see in the mirror, not who I really was. And when I let myself, I gave myself license to really be honest with myself, that opened up an entirely new door for me where I realized, yes, I have to have an ability to be structured and organized, but my natural preference is to let it ride. And that has been something that has served me as a served me as a
[00:47:24] Nicole: Evolutionary, I bet.
[00:47:24] George Pesansky: Work. Yeah, as an entrepreneur, not having a full-time day job, if you will. Being a P has been an asset because I'm okay if we don't have anything happening now, 'cause it'll all work out. Don't worry. Where, you know, the j would be like no, we need to be 38 days out from our revenue, you know?
[00:47:45] Nicole: Yeah. Challenging. Yeah. So, so good. And thank you for your service. Thank you. Thank
[00:47:50] George Pesansky: Oh, No.
[00:47:51] Nicole: for your service. Okay, so what rank, what rank and what, what, where in the Army? Just real quick. 'cause you know, I got
[00:47:57] George Pesansky: Yeah, yeah,
[00:47:58] Nicole: are in this. I'm curious.
[00:47:59] George Pesansky: Yeah, yeah. I was lieutenant and I was in Fort Stewart, Georgia primarily. And it's actually one of the opening stories in my book. I was a chemical officer that ended up being a tank platoon leader. And it was kind of a really weird set of circumstances, thankful, set of circumstances. And yeah, I had a, an absolutely wonderful military experience. Mine was more like an extended camping trip compared to a lot of our veterans here in the last 20 years, having a very different experience. So mine was was definitely formative, but but not the same as many.
[00:48:30] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for signing up. That's what I got to say about that. All right, so chapter five you say, okay, so listen to this, everybody. Find the friction and lower the temperature. So talk a little bit about friction. What are you talking about there? And then how do I get it to go away? How do I lube this thing up,
[00:48:52] George Pesansky: Well, you know, you think of like an engine, an engine without lubrication kind of creates heat and an engine is what? An engine is a bunch of mechanical parts kinda rubbing against each other. So I think about a team, a business, an office, a manufacturing floor is like a machine. It's like an engine and without lubrication, it rubs against itself and it generates a lot of heat. Especially, you know, a lot of manufacturing operations. The chaos that occurs on that manufacturing floor can be really, really intense. And finding the hotspots, finding the places where that friction is the greatest. There's a lot of ways to think about it. The tip that I'll give your listeners, the secret that I don't usually share, is I look for my dad. And what I mean by that is my dad was a guy who worked in the same factory for 42 years. And when anything broke, he was the guy who came out to fix it because he knew everything, he had been there for forever. And if he wasn't working that day, then there were going to be problems, 'cause nobody else knew how to take care of it. And what I have found is whether I'm looking and working in a hotel, or I'm looking or working in a manufacturing floor or helping a sales team, the same thing exists. My dad is somewhere in that organization and he swoops in with his cape and he helps correct and fix the hotspot to keep us all running.
[00:50:18] So instead of going through some crazy analysis or audit or process to kind of figure things out, ask yourself, who would be the person in your team, your organization, that if you lost them today, if they didn't return to work, would be devastating. It would be so incredibly costly. And then ask yourself how often that person puts on their cape, because if you follow them around with what they're doing when they have that cape, you're going to find all the hotspots. And then it's just a question of making those processes work, making them synchronize, making that system have some lubrication, versus us going in and just fixing it every time it breaks.
[00:51:01] Nicole: Yeah. And in my mind and in my heart, it is screaming and it's also like, who are you going to get to figure out you know what this person is doing and learn from them? They need an apprentice. There's an old fashioned word for y'all: apprentice. Immediately. You know, so that we can pass the the cape to the next person or get them their own cape, right?
[00:51:24] George Pesansky: And the golden hour concept, I kind of use the term "finding the root cause of your success." One of the things that we've been able to do in the practice is help organizations with exactly what you're pointing out. That we have these employees retiring...
[00:51:39] Nicole: Oh my gosh, y'all.
[00:51:40] George Pesansky: And those, those five why's that you talked about? When we sit down and we ask, you know, kind of the change that you make, the fix that you put in place, the processes that you use, why are you doing it that way? And what's the benefit of that? And why are you using those tools and why are you using this approach? And really trying to gain that knowledge because if you can gain that knowledge, you can practice that skill. If you don't have that knowledge, then you're not going to have that skill and we're going to have, you know, that hotspot in the process.
[00:52:11] Nicole: That's right. We're right back to the Venn diagram. So I will tell you we also have talked about like getting the potential out of people. You know, there is a human that wants to learn what the superhero knows. And we, and we just don't know who that is, or we haven't had the conversations. You know, we've got to have the conversations just like I read in the SHRM magazine this morning. Okay. All right. So, gosh, we only have three minutes left.
[00:52:36] George Pesansky: Oh goodness.
[00:52:37] Nicole: I know, and we're not all the way there yet, but I want to kind of poke on two things. Okay. So the next chapter is Make Focus Your Friend. All right? Then we have build an improvement factory, which that is money right there. Build an improvement factory, which means look at your processes, look at your stuff, continuous quality improvement. There's an old fashioned thing. Find the root cause. We've touched on that a little bit. Learn a trade and deliberately improve. But the thing I want to poke on is that improvement factory. Can you talk a little bit about that? How could I put that in my business? How could we work on the business instead of in the business so much? There's a good one.
[00:53:16] George Pesansky: Yes. Yeah. And I think people make this way more complicated than it has to be. You know, so if we boil it down to the simplest place, having change happen in your organization, having improvement happen is going to be like a factory. You're going to have raw material, you're going to have downtime, you're going to have waste, you're going to have a capacity. There's only so many things you can do in so many ways. And if you start thinking of it like managing the deliverables to your customer, but you are now the customer as the business. So working on the business is now I'm going to be my customer and I'm going to think about what is the highest priority problems and what are the best resources or people, and is there going to be quality in the work that they do so that we don't have to come back and do it again? All of the metrics that you need, all of the systems that you might go out and pay a consultant or a trainer to do are in front of you if you just run your improvement like you run your business. And it is absolutely a foolproof formula that I hope your listeners really take advantage of.
[00:54:17] Nicole: Yeah, I do too. And so, George, I have just, I had the best time talking to you about this. 'Cause here's the thing. I'm a competitive gal and I just think people underestimate the fun of winning. I don't know, when I was a little girl, I used to play like these games with my grandmother, Mert, and she would never let me win. She was fierce. She was like, we're playing Battleship. Like, we'd go get my brother's Battleship game out of his bedroom and we would play Battleship and she would never let me win. We'd play Monopoly and then guess what happened? I got smart enough to win-- sometimes. Not every time, you know, but like, winning is really fun and performance, it gives you like an actual neuropeptide bath out of your hypothalamus gland when like you do something well. It's good for your health.
[00:55:07] George Pesansky: Yes. It is.
[00:55:08] Nicole: It's so fun.
[00:55:09] George Pesansky: It is. And I think that's kind of core to the book _Superperformance_ because what we are saying, and this goes back to my nonprofit, the Capacity 2 Care, is that even the crustiest, angriest, most frustrated steel mill employee who really just didn't want to spend any time talking to me about anything, goes home to a little granddaughter who thinks he's a superhero and he's showing up to work every day. He's putting on those boots and he's slogging through 10, 12 hour shifts that are really challenging.
[00:55:44] Nicole: Of course.
[00:55:45] George Pesansky: He's winning. He's winning because he's providing for his family. And when you can tap into that desire to win, because we can not just win, we can help the next generation win, we can keep this mill open. We can help people understand the trade that you've created and developed, and people can respect you. Respect and winning are, I think, similar in triggering that hypothalamus.
[00:56:10] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And here's the thing about-- well, two things you just threw in there. George just throws these things in there at the last second, y'all. Okay, so one thing about the next generation. Don't miss what he just said. That gentleman, that goes home to his granddaughter-- and she may be living with him. Don't miss that. And so this is two generations, right? Because it's the granddaughter. And I don't know about you, George. Everybody's like, what do you think about this next generation? I'm like, well, I think about them just like everybody thought about me.
[00:56:42] George Pesansky: Exactly.
[00:56:43] Nicole: I'm a hot mess and I don't know anything. I'm on Mount Stupid. And so that's how it is. And we need to be leaders that help people come into their greatness, into their potential, like you talk about in the book. So it's the next generation is always going to be part of your project.
[00:57:01] George Pesansky: It is. Yeah. It is.
[00:57:02] Nicole: That's it.
[00:57:03] George Pesansky: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:57:05] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And then you said this thing about he goes to work and he slogs through these long days. And respect. You know, here's the thing. The reason why he might be crusty and angry is because nobody realizes what he does in a 12 hour day. And you said earlier, don't miss what George said earlier. He said, go follow this person around.
[00:57:26] George Pesansky: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Respect. Respect is such a powerful tool that providing it can open so many doors for you. And many of those people who have that closed, crusty, angry kind of personality at work. It is because they've been disrespected or they feel or perceive a lack of respect and, and changing, flipping that script can just transform a department, an employee, an organization.
[00:57:54] Nicole: Oh, I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. All right, everybody. That's been another vibrant episode of the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast, and we have had George Kansky, the author of _Superperformance_ on the Show. Will you please go buy the book? George, George needs lunch money and and so if you buy the book, you'll get the eight strategies to reach your full potential yourself, your team, and your organization.
[00:58:18] All right, George. Tell 'em where they can find you so they can hire you.
[00:58:22] George Pesansky: Yeah, thank you. So the book's available everywhere and also if you go to my website, georgepesansky.com, you can get both the book, but you can also contact us and also all of the articles we write, all the podcasts we have. And then my company, myblendedlearning.com, certainly available to help your organization, training, culture development, process improvement. We'd love to talk to you.
[00:58:45] Nicole: Awesome. Fantastic. All right, George. We're brother and sister from another mother. We love the culture. We love the culture. All right. It's been great to be with you everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Will you do this just real quick? Go down, click like, and write, you know, a three word sentence. I love George, or something like that. That helps us get this on the radar for people. Thanks again, George. It was great to be with you.
[00:59:08] George Pesansky: Oh, thank you.
[00:59:09] Announcer: Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Build a Vibrant Culture Podcast. If you found value in today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more like-minded listeners. Remember, the journey to building a vibrant culture never stops. Stay inspired, keep nurturing your vibrant culture, and we can't wait to reconnect with you on the next exciting episode of the Build a Vibrant Culture Podcast.