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🎙️ THE Conversation is a monthly podcast that brings together diverse voices to engage in honest, courageous, and deeply relevant discussions about race and justice. Co-hosted by The Rev. Will Mebane and Onjalé Scott Price, this award-winning series was created by Falmouth Community Television (FCTV) to open dialogue and foster education on issues of racial equity—starting at the local level and rippling outward.
Each episode features panel discussions, community voices, and expert guests who explore how racism and bias shape our everyday lives across institutions such as education, healthcare, housing, religion, and more. With a focus on awareness, action, and community connection, THE Conversation aims to inspire lasting, meaningful change—one conversation at a time.
Originally launched in 2020, the show has received the Rika Welch Community Impact Award and continues to spark partnerships, elevate marginalized voices, and support anti-bias education throughout Cape Cod and beyond.
Listen and be part of THE Conversation—because change starts with listening.
00;00;51;24 - 00;01;18;19
Onjalé Scott Price
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conversation. I am so excited about today's show because I am joined by my wonderful friend, the honorable. The fantastic Reverend. Yeah. You know this guy. And by another friend, Doctor Robert Livingston. Doctor Robert Livingston wrote this book, The Conversation. And it was actually a bit of the inspiration for this show and the title for this show, if you couldn't tell.
00;01;18;24 - 00;01;40;21
Onjalé Scott Price
So we're very excited to have my friend Doctor Livingston with us today. Just to introduce Doctor Livingston to you all. He is a social psychology and leading expert on the science underlying bias and racism in organizations. And he is the author of this amazing book, The Conversation How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations.
00;01;40;25 - 00;01;42;29
Onjalé Scott Price
So thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Livingston.
00;01;42;29 - 00;01;45;04
Robert Livingston
Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to be here.
00;01;45;06 - 00;01;49;09
Onjalé Scott Price
It's so exciting to have you because your book absolutely was inspiration for them.
00;01;49;10 - 00;01;51;21
Rev. Will Mebane
Say thank you for naming your book after our show.
00;01;51;27 - 00;01;56;10
Robert Livingston
I and you know, that was my intention that four.
00;01;56;10 - 00;02;01;08
Robert Livingston
Years ago when I decided on the name. No kidding. But I it's a happy coincidence nonetheless.
00;02;01;08 - 00;02;04;28
Onjalé Scott Price
So. So you started thinking about writing or you actually started writing four years ago.
00;02;05;02 - 00;02;13;03
Robert Livingston
I did now, I started writing four years before the book was published, and that was in February of 2021. So I guess I started writing in 2017.
00;02;13;06 - 00;02;14;28
Onjalé Scott Price
How did that start?
00;02;15;00 - 00;02;38;11
Robert Livingston
Well, I've been doing this work for quite some time, as you know, both as an academic and a researcher and also as a practitioner and many organizations encouraged me to write a book, so that my approach to anti-racism could be scaled. They said, it's great to have you come out and, you know, help our organization and move the needle in a profound and sustainable way towards greater racial equity.
00;02;38;18 - 00;02;49;09
Robert Livingston
But it would be great if you could package that magic, as they called it, into a book, that everyone could, profit and and benefit from. So that's what I decided to do.
00;02;49;12 - 00;02;56;29
Onjalé Scott Price
And how so did you start writing in 2017 or just have notes and kind of put it together later on, like in 2021?
00;02;57;01 - 00;03;22;14
Robert Livingston
The actual writing. But, you know, the creative process of book writing, if and if you're interested, we can go deep into that. But it's it's quite interesting. And the end product is never like the starting blueprint. It evolves and takes a life of its own. This is actually unique in terms of books in that it's a science based approach.
00;03;22;21 - 00;03;40;03
Robert Livingston
So what that means is that I had to read literally thousands of articles. And so, you know, I was at a book festival in New Orleans and Malcolm Gladwell, once said, you know, if there's 100 things to know about a topic, you know, I try to get about 40 in my book. I made the mistake.
00;03;40;03 - 00;04;07;02
Robert Livingston
I didn't know him. I had met him before I wrote this book. So I made the mistake of trying to get 100, out of 100 in this. And that was quite an undertaking because, what it, required was reading everything related to race, intergroup relations, oppression. Sexism, across five disciplines economics, political science, social psychology, sociology and organizational studies.
00;04;07;06 - 00;04;15;20
Robert Livingston
And we literally covered everything. And and so it it was, it was like writing 12 dissertations.
00;04;15;21 - 00;04;18;02
Onjalé Scott Price
I'll say, sounds like you got another PhD as you were writing.
00;04;18;04 - 00;04;37;28
Robert Livingston
It was like writing 12 dissertations, because each chapter, as you know, from reading the book, and you were a great, sort of guest editor during the process. Each chapter is sort of, autonomous in a way. They're linked together, but there isn't a lot of repetition in the book, and they each chapter tackles a different subject.
00;04;37;28 - 00;04;41;25
Robert Livingston
So I had to really dig deep in each of those subjects.
00;04;41;27 - 00;04;58;00
Onjalé Scott Price
And I really appreciated how you say at the very beginning, be patient with this process right? Because at the very beginning you say you probably want to skip all this stuff and get to the solutions, but you can't do that with this work. You have to have to learn the background. You have to understand as you go through.
00;04;58;00 - 00;05;12;19
Onjalé Scott Price
And so I know I really enjoyed that part of the book because I was like, oh yeah, this is cool. But like, where are we going to get to the part where we actually do something about it? And recognizing that very early on, and you mentioned a couple times throughout the book, just be patient, patient, go with the process.
00;05;12;22 - 00;05;15;25
Onjalé Scott Price
And, and I just thought that was a fantastic way to write the book.
00;05;15;28 - 00;05;45;21
Robert Livingston
Yeah. And I think it's also important for people to realize that discomfort is par for the course. So, you know, at Harvard we talk about the comfort zone and the danger zone and the learning zone being nestled between the comfort zone and the danger zone. So if things are so comfortable that you never feel, awkward or, or uncomfortable, that it means you're not learning anything, and if things are so, traumatic that you shut down, it means that you're not learning anything.
00;05;45;25 - 00;06;15;23
Robert Livingston
But if you can find that sweet spot between the comfort zone and the danger zone, which we, you know, call, tolerable discomfort, then that's where the sweet spot is, and that's where the learning occurs. And so I want people to sort of wallow in the discomfort and in thinking about the problem and understanding the root causes of racism, because when you too quickly jump to solutions, what people are actually doing is saying, you know, I'm uncomfortable in this situation, just tell me what to do.
00;06;15;25 - 00;06;23;03
Robert Livingston
And part of what you do is really, really, understanding digest the problem before you go to solutions.
00;06;23;08 - 00;06;41;29
Rev. Will Mebane
Are they're saying I disagree with you and I'm that I just move on to something else and not pay attention to what exactly you're offering. You know, you are, I don't know if you're inspiring me or around, causing me to give up on the idea I've had of writing a book, and some people have been urging me to do that.
00;06;41;29 - 00;07;06;09
Rev. Will Mebane
And, So I may have to hire you as a consultant. And if they move in that process, they help me make my way into into it. But as you were talking, I was especially interested in that piece about the comfort zone and the comfort zone in the discomfort. Right. Because I'm a preacher and, a pastor at church here in Falmouth, Saint Barnabas, this memorial, which is.
00;07;06;09 - 00;07;27;27
Rev. Will Mebane
Hey, Saint Bottom is. Hope you out there. And one of the things I'd say to the congregation all the time is I see my role as, confronting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable. It's got to be that dis ease, if you will. Right. You don't want it to be to the point of people. People are paralyzed, right.
00;07;27;27 - 00;07;49;16
Rev. Will Mebane
And tuned right out. But it's got to be some, some discomfort there. Otherwise people don't maybe feel challenged but right and willing to address that. So what were you hoping was the would be the end result? What was your if there was one thing you were hoping would come from, from this excellent work that you've done? What what was it?
00;07;49;19 - 00;08;11;08
Robert Livingston
Well, you know, I well, the the ultimate aspiration of hope was to really chart a path towards solving the problem of racism. And I do think that racism is a solvable problem. Whether it will be solved or not is a completely different question. So if someone asks me, can I lose 4 pounds? The answer is probably yes.
00;08;11;10 - 00;08;38;06
Robert Livingston
There are steps that you can take to do that. Will you lose 4 pounds? The answer is, I don't know. And maybe probably not. But what I wanted to do was equip people with tools and provide a compass and a roadmap for how to get to that final, destination. And, you know, the goal was it to make people uncomfortable for the sake of discomfort, a sort of schadenfreude if you will.
00;08;38;06 - 00;09;02;22
Robert Livingston
My pleasure at watching people squirm. The ultimate goal was to help people gain a profound understanding of the complexity of this problem and to help them explore the root causes of racism. Because I have a model that I outline in the book and that's, talked about in my HBR Harvard Business Review article, called The Press model.
00;09;02;22 - 00;09;20;23
Robert Livingston
And these are sort of the five steps to getting towards, change. And as I mentioned before, people want to jump straight to solutions. But you have to start with P of the press model problem awareness. Is there even a problem. And there's so many Americans, particularly white Americans, who don't believe that racism against people of color is a real thing in 2022?
00;09;20;25 - 00;09;41;14
Robert Livingston
If that's the case, we're already dead in the water. So chapter one, sort of explores that whole issue, in, an inquiry mode. And that's one of the unique features of the book, is I don't try to impose any ideas on anyone, and I don't talk about my own life experience. I don't even really talk about my opinions.
00;09;41;14 - 00;10;02;25
Robert Livingston
I take every question and say, oh, is this the case? Maybe there is racism, maybe there's not. And then I provide scientific evidence to sort of arbitrate. The question. So the P is problem awareness. Do we even have a problem? Because if we don't, then diversity initiatives make no sense. And in fact, in the absence of a problem, people would argue that the diversity initiatives are the problem.
00;10;02;28 - 00;10;21;05
Robert Livingston
And so you really need to get everyone on the same page about whether there's a problem. The R of press is root cause analysis. If there is a problem, what's causing it? Too often people think that racism, to the extent that it does exist, is the product of a few rogue actors. Bad apples, the Derek Chauvin's of the world.
00;10;21;05 - 00;10;43;03
Robert Livingston
And if we could somehow get rid of or fire those individuals, then the Minneapolis Police Department would be just fine. And what they fail to realize is the deep roots in history, in the economy, in the legal system, in politics and health care, in many different core facets of our society in which racism is embedded. Richard Rothstein wrote a book called The Color of Law.
00;10;43;05 - 00;11;09;19
Robert Livingston
It was a great book that talks about redlining and access to mortgages and how the federal government legally excluded people of color from being able to buy a home. So it's important that people understand that the situation that we're in now didn't just happen. And it's not due to any sort of, lack of diligence on the part of people of color or lack of ambition on the part of people of color.
00;11;09;23 - 00;11;29;22
Robert Livingston
It's actually a system that's been put in place, and it was designed on purpose. So I think it's important. And I spent chapters going deep into the root cause, because if you don't understand the root cause, then you can't really address solutions because you've misdiagnosed the problem. It's almost like a doctor. If you go in and you have a headache, headaches can be caused by lots of different things.
00;11;29;22 - 00;11;50;28
Robert Livingston
It can be caused by dehydration, coronavirus, stress, anxiety, myriad other factors. In order to treat you, they have to match the treatment to the underlying cause of the headache. Because treating a headache caused by anxiety is different than treating a headache that's caused by dehydration, for example. And then the E, which I think is the million dollar question is the empathy or concern.
00;11;51;01 - 00;12;24;09
Robert Livingston
Once you know there's a problem, you understand the root cause. Do you even care enough to want to do something about it? Are you motivated enough to invest time, effort, energy, resources into trying to solve the problem? And I spend many chapters talking about concern, and I actually get into, spirituality and the moral awakening and people sort of, exploring our shared humanity as a motivator to creating empathy around the plight and suffering of other people.
00;12;24;15 - 00;12;45;25
Robert Livingston
So it's not strictly scientific. I actually have, you know, vestiges, sprinkles of, of spirituality in this because I think ultimately it is a humanistic and it's a spiritual sort of endeavor. And then we get to s, the first s, which is strategy, do you know what to do? And the second s, which is sacrifice. Are you willing to do it because no strategies useful without implementation.
00;12;46;01 - 00;13;05;08
Robert Livingston
So that's kind of how I set up the book and how I sort of lead the reader, through these 12 chapters on a journey, starting with is there a problem? Where does it come from? Do you care? Why should you care? I talk about the business case. I talk about the moral case. I talk about the collective interest case.
00;13;05;08 - 00;13;26;26
Robert Livingston
This idea that when the tide rises, all ships rise with it. And then I spend, numerous chapters talking about what do you do? When are you willing to do it? But as Andy is saying, you know, when you're deep into this root cause, it can be so disheartening that people are like, oh my gosh, I didn't know all of these terrible things about, you know, when can we get to solutions?
00;13;26;26 - 00;13;48;26
Robert Livingston
But I think it's really, really important for people to fully, fully understand the problem. And I think there are few people who do fully understand the problem, because if they did, they would have more empathy and they would have more understanding, and they would have more compassion, because they would realize that the current state of affairs of affairs is not the doing of people of color.
00;13;48;26 - 00;13;55;28
Robert Livingston
It's something that's been done to people of color. And that's not just my opinion, that's a fact. And then you can read my book and see.
00;13;55;28 - 00;13;57;09
Robert Livingston
Whether you agree and we can.
00;13;57;09 - 00;13;59;29
Robert Livingston
Have a conversation about it. But that's the idea.
00;14;00;04 - 00;14;29;19
Rev. Will Mebane
So I have a, I'm not an academic and not a scholar, so I have a more simplistic approach to it. I agree with you. Racism. The issue can be resolved. It can't be solved, right? Because no one is born into the world a racist, racism is taught this learn. It's an indoctrination, right? And yet we still have people sort of stuck, if I can express it that way, that the P the stage.
00;14;29;19 - 00;14;48;13
Rev. Will Mebane
Right. Who denies that there's a problem? Oh, the racism. Racism doesn't exist in this country. What are you talking about? I'm not racist. You know. My family's not racist. We didn't own slaves. And you? My answer. So then I. We get them that red. But. And my best friend I got some of my friends are black, right. Yeah.
00;14;48;15 - 00;14;49;21
Robert Livingston
I voted for Obama, you know.
00;14;49;21 - 00;14;51;22
Speaker 5
Right. That's what you get out there. Yeah.
00;14;51;25 - 00;15;11;19
Rev. Will Mebane
So, how can you move? Can you move from the people that are denying that there's a problem? How do you move them? Or do you say, okay, those people don't think it's a problem. So I'm got to work with some other folks who realize that there is a problem. How do you.
00;15;12;05 - 00;15;25;29
Robert Livingston
Yeah. No, it's a great question. And I think you can move people pretty substantially, from being asleep to being awake. I dare not use the word woke. Right.
00;15;26;02 - 00;15;28;05
Robert Livingston
What it really is going from a.
00;15;28;05 - 00;15;55;11
Robert Livingston
Situation of very low consciousness to high consciousness. And we do this on a lot of things. So, you know, I just did a gig, with the USDA. That's why I was in DC yesterday before I came here. And, Agricultural Secretary Tom Vilsack was there, and he was talking about how they convinced people there were people who just didn't believe in the climate change thing ten years ago, 15 years ago, people just didn't believe it.
00;15;55;14 - 00;16;16;14
Robert Livingston
Or they pretended that they didn't believe it. Because if you're a farmer, you see it and you experience it. Right. But there were a series of factors that led people to do a complete 180 degrees, to go from being the biggest deniers to the biggest zealots, you know, and, and they were on board with the zeal of a convert.
00;16;16;16 - 00;16;42;14
Robert Livingston
And I think that same thing can happen, because there was probably a point I was very young, but a point where I didn't see racism or didn't really understand the system that I believe that we were taught that this was the land of the free and that, everyone has an equal shot in life because there are certain, myths and mantras that are fed to people and we believe them.
00;16;42;16 - 00;17;05;09
Robert Livingston
And as you become more educated and as you, read and you study or you get out into the world, you know, the veil slowly unravels and you start to see it's almost like the movie The Matrix, that you start off in this sort of deep sleep, and then you sort of take the red pill and you see the world, in a different way.
00;17;05;09 - 00;17;23;14
Robert Livingston
Now, the problem is that world that you see after you wake up is not as rosy as the rose. It's the world that you had when you were asleep. So there's a lot of motivation on the part of people to not see it. So that's one of the factors, is that people don't see it because they don't want to see it because it's negative, it's ugly.
00;17;23;14 - 00;17;44;05
Robert Livingston
But like the movie The Matrix, you can't battle the machines, the aliens, until you see that there are aliens in front of you as long as you're asleep, they're going to use you for your battery power. So that's, the first thing. The other thing is, I think people have a lot of false logic that leads them to conclusions that aren't warranted or justified.
00;17;44;05 - 00;17;53;17
Robert Livingston
So one of them is, if there's racism, then how could we have a black president? Or if there's racism, how could you be a Harvard professor, Doctor Livingston? Or if there's racism.
00;17;53;17 - 00;17;55;10
Rev. Will Mebane
The rector of a all white.
00;17;55;10 - 00;18;14;27
Robert Livingston
Church? That's right. How would they even why would they even go and listen to you? Because in the 1820s they wouldn't have. So therefore there's no racism. And I have to remind people of two things. First of all, there have always, always been exceptions. And so I ask people, when was the first black person elected to the US Senate?
00;18;14;27 - 00;18;35;16
Robert Livingston
In what year? And people often say, I don't know, 1967. Sometimes people say 1979, 1980. And I tell them, no, it was 1870. Hiram rebels from Mississippi, or I say, when was the first black millionaire board? And they'll say, oh, you know, 1967. He knows the 1800s. When did the first black person go to Harvard, Richard Greener? That was in the 1800s as well.
00;18;35;21 - 00;19;12;05
Robert Livingston
So it would be ridiculous for people then in the 1860s or 70s or 80s to say, oh, there's no racism simply because you have these exceptions. Pakistan has had a female prime minister, that doesn't mean there isn't any sexism there. So the exceptions, don't disprove the rule. And I think people often think that they do because they have such, a simplistic understanding of what racism is, that they think, oh, if racism existed, then how could you, you and you, these exceptions, exist.
00;19;12;07 - 00;19;38;16
Robert Livingston
And so people turn on the TV, they see Oprah, they see Obama, they see Beyonce, they see Jay-Z. And by the way, these are people in entertainment. There have always been black entertainers, sports figures. Right. So it's it's often, relegated to certain sectors of society. Anyway, when you see people who are successful, you see very few black tech executives, of Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos variety.
00;19;38;20 - 00;19;39;20
Robert Livingston
So we still.
00;19;39;20 - 00;19;41;10
Rev. Will Mebane
See thank God for what am I.
00;19;41;12 - 00;19;44;08
Robert Livingston
Well, right, right. But but you know, there are a lot of.
00;19;44;15 - 00;20;05;24
Robert Livingston
Smart people out there who can't get venture capital simply because of the way that they look. There's a woman who has, undergraduate degree from MIT, graduate degree from Stanford, black woman Stephanie Lampkin, who started her own company because she was overlooked by venture capitalists, because being a black woman, she just didn't fit that bro culture stereotype.
00;20;05;27 - 00;20;35;29
Robert Livingston
So I think that's why a lot of people don't believe in it. And, also, I think it has to do with black and white people defining racism in different ways. For many white people, it has to be an extreme example for for it to be labeled as racism. So Derek Chauvin, probably, Dylann Roof, who callously murdered the people in the manual AME church in Charleston, the situation with Jackie Robinson where he was competent, unquestionably competent.
00;20;35;29 - 00;20;57;11
Robert Livingston
He was kind. He was personable, he was professional. But they wouldn't let him play just because he was black. If it reaches that high bar, then white people say, yeah, that's racism. But anything south of that high bar is suspect. And so microaggressions or being undermined at work or not even being hired for a job, those are things that people say.
00;20;57;11 - 00;21;18;27
Robert Livingston
Well, it probably wasn't racism. It was something else. It was this or it was that. And so in our modern world, it's a lot easier for people to deny the existence of racism, because it often manifests itself in very subtle ways. So you put all that together, you know, the motivation, the what's called the availability heuristic or the salient examples.
00;21;18;27 - 00;21;52;10
Robert Livingston
Daniel Kahneman talks about this in his book Thinking Fast and Slow, that having a few vivid examples, often leads people to overestimate the prevalence of this. So because I can think of rich and famous black people, black people must be rich and famous, then than people believe. And then the third thing, just how people define racism and the fact that, subtle bias doesn't really cut the mustard for white people, they think that's bellyaching or playing the race card or, complaining, and they don't see that as being, valid racism.
00;21;52;12 - 00;22;24;24
Robert Livingston
And so I spend a number of chapters defining what unconscious bias or implicit bias is and providing incontrovertible evidence that it exists. So one is, if you have two people applying for a job and the resumes are exactly the same, and if one has the name lakisha Washington and the other is Emily Walsh, and you send those out to thousands of job openings, not surprisingly to us, Emily Walsh will get far more callbacks than Lakisha Washington.
00;22;24;26 - 00;22;48;11
Robert Livingston
And there's research showing that the locations of the world know that because they whiten their resumes. And so if your name is Lakisha, a Washington and A is and when it comes time to apply for a job, research is shown, that they will list their name is l period. And Washington and that companies actually are more likely to hire l period and Washington rather than Lakisha Washington.
00;22;48;14 - 00;23;10;07
Robert Livingston
Astonishingly, even companies that are gung ho about diversity. So this particular study that I'm talking about, that was conducted by Sonia Kang and colleagues showed that if, the company put out an ad that said, we're deeply committed, we desire diversity, that in this study they were still more likely to hire the L period. And Washington over.
00;23;10;07 - 00;23;37;27
Robert Livingston
Lakisha a Washington, despite the fact that they had really strong, principles, at least on paper, to diversity. So it's real and it affects people's lives. A lot of the white people reading those resumes probably didn't know, didn't consciously think, oh, I'm going to deliberate discriminate against Lakisha. Something inside of their minds, led them to the conclusion that she wouldn't be as good of a fit or as competent.
00;23;37;29 - 00;23;50;07
Robert Livingston
A candidate as Emily Walsh. And so they passed over her. And that's how insidious, implicit bias is. And the world, our country is rife with it.
00;23;50;10 - 00;24;00;06
Rev. Will Mebane
Our guest today is, Doctor Livingston, a brilliant scholar from, Harvard. I'm a Yale guy, but that's okay. Okay.
00;24;00;08 - 00;24;01;10
Robert Livingston
I won't hold that against you.
00;24;04;03 - 00;24;05;10
Rev. Will Mebane
And we got a football game coming up.
00;24;05;11 - 00;24;07;08
Robert Livingston
We do it. We do? Oh,
00;24;07;08 - 00;24;10;10
Onjalé Scott Price
man, I do not know what you're talking. Okay.
00;24;10;13 - 00;24;30;20
Rev. Will Mebane
So we're grateful that we're glad to be here in the studio. This is our first, show in the studio since we started doing this show 24 months ago. I feel like I need to introduce myself to you because I haven't seen you in person. That, But let me ask you. You wouldn't. You said a little bit about, your own awakening.
00;24;30;23 - 00;24;43;25
Rev. Will Mebane
Tell us a little bit about your background. Where are you from, where you were raised. And the key question for me is, so what was it that made you realize, hey, racism is real and I'm a victim of it? Yeah.
00;24;43;27 - 00;25;03;17
Robert Livingston
Well, it's a it's an interesting story, but I think it's a relevant story because it explains why I do this work. And I think it also explains how I do this work, and it helps to elucidate my approach. So one of the reasons I was in a bubble is that I grew up in, an all black neighborhood.
00;25;03;17 - 00;25;33;07
Robert Livingston
And, I mean, it was all black, 100%, but it was black accountants, black lawyers. My dentist was black, lived in the neighborhood, my high school principals. Black lived in the neighborhood. Our attorney was black, lived in the neighborhood. The librarian was black. Live in the neighborhood. My teachers, many of them, were black. And so it was sort of this, almost Wakanda like existence that I grew up in.
00;25;33;09 - 00;25;51;24
Robert Livingston
And this was in Lexington, Kentucky. And so what you have to realize, and I'll tell people my age, is I was born in 1971, and I think that was a sweet spot because when I was born, it was post the civil rights era. And so there had been a lot of programs, affirmative action, for example, that had been implemented.
00;25;51;24 - 00;26;15;18
Robert Livingston
And there was this burgeoning black middle class in the early 1970s. And so the city built neighborhoods, subdivisions, as they called them, for this emerging black middle class. Lexington had one of the headquarters to IBM, which nowadays is Lexmark, which from Lexington. Yeah. So that headquarters is still there, but it was in the 70s, an IBM headquarters. So Toyota has one of its plants there.
00;26;15;18 - 00;26;35;00
Robert Livingston
They built all the Camrys, the University of Kentucky's there. So there was all this white collar industry and, and I think with affirmative action. And so they built these neighborhoods in the late 60s and the 70s that were all black middle class neighborhoods. And there were several of them. So I was surrounded by black middle class neighborhoods.
00;26;35;03 - 00;26;40;23
Robert Livingston
And it was beautiful because whoever planned it, I mean, I guess there was a lot of white guilt, like they built tennis.
00;26;40;23 - 00;26;41;26
Robert Livingston
Courts and.
00;26;41;29 - 00;27;16;10
Robert Livingston
We had baseball fields and there were trees everywhere. I mean, it was just it was absolutely beautiful where I grew up, the neighborhood. And so I was kind of buffered and sheltered from it because everyone in my environment, my immediate environment was was, was black, even my schools, the way the school districts. And it was just a twist of fate, the way that it was set up, the school that we went to, the integrated high schools about 5050, but the average size of the black students there was slightly higher than the size of the white students.
00;27;16;10 - 00;27;18;01
Rev. Will Mebane
There desks meeting.
00;27;18;01 - 00;27;43;04
Robert Livingston
Socioeconomic status so that the social class of the black students was higher. So this is almost the perfect experiment, right? They when we talk about the contact hypothesis and, and and this is, this is the theory of, of how contact can lead to more positive racial attitudes. One of the conditions for contact is equal status because, you know, the southern plantation, there was contact, but it wasn't equal status.
00;27;43;04 - 00;28;04;03
Robert Livingston
And the, you know, social standing of the white people was here. And for the black people, it was here. So that kind of contact can actually make racial attitudes worse. But for us, it was here or even here where the black students so I was in advanced classes, my friends were in the advanced classes. We took, you know, school trips.
00;28;04;05 - 00;28;26;09
Robert Livingston
I still saw some of the friends at my 30 year reunion, and we were laughing about the trip that we all took to Mexico. As you know, I speak four languages. I spent time in France as a kid, so I think my existence was really unique. I didn't realize it was unique at the time. Lexington to this day, is a city that hasn't had, an unjustified shooting of a black person by a police officer.
00;28;26;11 - 00;28;47;09
Robert Livingston
It never existed when I was there. Right. It just it isn't that kind of, of environment. It's always been. So I think there's a combination of factors. Louisville's a whole different story down the road. Right. But but Lexington, it just didn't. So as a result, I grew up not fearing white people, not hating or resenting white people.
00;28;47;09 - 00;29;10;05
Robert Livingston
And I think, most importantly, and this is the most important, not envying white people. I had no notion that they were superior to us. And if anything, right in school, we were the cool kids. We were the athletic kids, we were the smart kids. We were you name it. And they sort of wanted to be like us.
00;29;10;08 - 00;29;16;19
Robert Livingston
Maybe you're not understanding what I'm saying because I talked I talked to people about this and they're like, wow, right.
00;29;16;21 - 00;29;19;18
Onjalé Scott Price
It's really it's mind blowing. Yeah, yeah.
00;29;19;20 - 00;29;40;10
Robert Livingston
So all of that fast forward, I decided because I was, in the marching band as well, and I had applied to Famu, Florida A&M University for people who don't know, and they have a legendary marching band. And I got into Famu and they gave me a scholarship. But I was also the jazz. And so I applied to Tulane because I wanted to be in New Orleans.
00;29;40;17 - 00;29;49;26
Robert Livingston
They gave me a full ride, plus a National Merit scholarship because I was a National Merit finalist. So Tulane was everything. Plus I was getting money back. Plus I was in New Orleans. So I said, I.
00;29;49;28 - 00;29;50;18
Onjalé Scott Price
Can't beat that.
00;29;50;18 - 00;30;15;23
Robert Livingston
Can't beat that. So I went that was the awakening New Orleans at the time. And this is the antediluvian. The pre-Katrina New Orleans was a hotbed of racism. And when I got old, you know, old Deep South racism, which was very different than the Mid-South. What, you know, Virginia, Kentucky, those areas, it's very different than the Mississippi, Alabama, so forth.
00;30;15;23 - 00;30;45;19
Robert Livingston
And I've been reading on it. It's because we didn't have, you know, the same sort of cotton or sugar economy. Right? Because there's a certain kind of brutality with running those large scale plantations. And there's not the the sort of climate for it when you get to Maryland, those kind of places. But, maybe that's one theory, but, you know, it opened my eyes when I heard some of the things coming out of the white folks mouth and actually talked to white people at the 30 year reunion because they went out to the world and they were like, we didn't get the racism.
00;30;45;19 - 00;31;14;18
Robert Livingston
Like we all, you know, because of the optimal conditions. They didn't understand the concept of inferiority really, either because the black people they came into contact with, objectively speaking, were not inferior to them in any way. So they actually went out to the world, heard the same things, and I did. But at that point my armor was thick, my skin was thick, and I found it intriguing and amusing, almost like a three year old child.
00;31;14;18 - 00;31;37;03
Robert Livingston
You know, if they tell you there's a green monster under the bed and they're really nervous, you know, you kind of smile to yourself and you ask them questions like, what does this monster look like? And does it have a scaly tail? Does it have sharp teeth? Does it breathe fire? You know, you're asking these questions in a very calm way because you, as an adult, are 100% sure that there is no monster under the bed.
00;31;37;05 - 00;31;59;25
Robert Livingston
So that was my approach to racism. All of these anxious, fearful and you could see it delusional white people were telling me all these racist things, and it was like a three year old telling me there was a dragon under the bed. And because I had dragon armor that was given to me from the day that I was born, I said, let's take on this dragon.
00;31;59;27 - 00;32;25;21
Robert Livingston
So tell me more about this dragon that you think is living under the bed. And so I think that's what kind of sets me apart from a lot of, of my brothers and sisters who've been traumatized by racism because I never had to deal with the trauma of racism or being hazed by a cop, or being chased down or or even being bullied or beaten up by white people.
00;32;25;23 - 00;32;55;07
Robert Livingston
I was able to sort of have a certain amount of psychological distance between this experience of racism and what I was seeing, and sort of try to understand it and address it from that standpoint, but always from a position of strength, a position of calm, and a position of grace that I think my upbringing gave me. Because if I'd grown up in a different place, I wouldn't have had any of those things.
00;32;55;12 - 00;32;56;13
Onjalé Scott Price
That is so deep.
00;32;56;13 - 00;32;56;26
Rev. Will Mebane
I.
00;32;56;26 - 00;33;13;15
Rev. Will Mebane
Think I could. I appreciate you telling that, sharing that, and I, I can relate to that. And and I especially like the, the metaphor of the armor, because I grew up in North Carolina, in Durham. I'm a few years, couple decades.
00;33;17;07 - 00;33;47;25
Rev. Will Mebane
You know, in the Haiti section of Durham, all black, you know, you'd like it. Black barber, black attorney, black insurance people. Black this, that, you know, black dry cleaners, this black grocery store. Right. And so when I was, along with some others were literally hand-picked to go to integrate the junior high school in Durham, I felt like I was as good as anybody else.
00;33;47;28 - 00;33;48;09
Rev. Will Mebane
Right?
00;33;48;09 - 00;33;49;02
Robert Livingston
Yeah.
00;33;49;05 - 00;33;50;03
Rev. Will Mebane
Which got me in trouble.
00;33;50;04 - 00;33;50;28
Robert Livingston
Exactly.
00;33;51;00 - 00;33;52;08
Rev. Will Mebane
For. Right. Because because they.
00;33;52;08 - 00;33;54;27
Robert Livingston
Didn't tell the rest of the world that we were okay. Right.
00;33;54;29 - 00;34;10;27
Rev. Will Mebane
So I completely, resonate with that. And I think that has maybe stirred me well as I've gotten older, progressed with it. But I'm going to challenge you on one thing, though. Okay. So I got to take you back to Lexington. Yeah. University of Kentucky.
00;34;10;27 - 00;34;13;10
Robert Livingston
Yeah, yeah. Adolph Rupp, is that.
00;34;13;12 - 00;34;20;10
Rev. Will Mebane
Yes. Right. Right. So here's Adolph Robert. Yeah. You know, revered you know, Adolph Rupp is right.
00;34;20;10 - 00;34;22;05
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. Probably. Yeah. I have no idea.
00;34;22;10 - 00;34;24;18
Rev. Will Mebane
Yeah, yeah. Head coach of university.
00;34;24;18 - 00;34;26;20
Robert Livingston
Who would not let black players black black.
00;34;27;00 - 00;34;28;18
Robert Livingston
Play at the University of Kentucky at the.
00;34;28;18 - 00;34;38;24
Rev. Will Mebane
University of Kentucky. So how is that a he's existing in that. Yeah. You know, system microcosm. How were you identified.
00;34;38;26 - 00;35;03;26
Robert Livingston
Oh yeah. So we knew about that just as nowadays we know about Donald Trump and some of the things that he says. But we don't take them seriously. It's just like Donald Trump. He says things and you think, wow, you know, where did that come from? Or with Adolph Rupp, you know, you would hear these things. And we thought he was a stone cold fool for a bunch of reasons.
00;35;03;26 - 00;35;07;02
Robert Livingston
One, you know, how could he think that in two.
00;35;07;04 - 00;35;11;23
Robert Livingston
You know, we're really good at basketball. Like it just so.
00;35;11;23 - 00;35;30;26
Robert Livingston
We would make jokes about that. And and we knew, of course, that racist white people existed out there. Like, we we knew that there were people who believed X or Y or didn't want to be around us, and even people at our school like I would. And I remember being intrigued because you know, there were friends that we had and you would talk to them.
00;35;30;26 - 00;35;54;21
Robert Livingston
And, you know, especially with the white women, they had, you know, black friends who were male or black friends who were female. And there were some interracial dating. But, you know, some of them would say, my dad would beat me black and blue, you know, if I dated. And so we knew those things. But it was kind of you know, funny, for lack of a better word, that, you know, these are it didn't reflect anything about me.
00;35;54;23 - 00;36;12;17
Robert Livingston
I didn't feel that Adolph Rupp's ideas really said anything about me. Because, for one, I never, you know, I wasn't a basketball player, and I was going to play the University of Kentucky, so it didn't affect me, but. Or that, you know, this person said, oh, you know, we can't date because at that time I wasn't dating in a racially like.
00;36;12;17 - 00;36;33;18
Robert Livingston
So none of that really affected me in any kind of way. Even though I knew on some level that those things exist, just like, you know, we know Donald Trump thinks the election is stolen. That doesn't affect me in any kind of way, or my views about democracy or my views about things. It's just someone out there with the crazy idea.
00;36;33;25 - 00;36;55;10
Robert Livingston
Yeah, but it doesn't sort of penetrate my skin or or impact my self-esteem in any way. It's just part of the world. And, you know, we you can even smile and joke about it thing, you know, and we can sit around and have conversations about, like, did you hear that latest thing that so-and-so said about this? And it's just so out there that, it doesn't carry any weight.
00;36;55;12 - 00;37;03;24
Onjalé Scott Price
So it's almost like you are able to look at racism very objectively, maybe some more objectively than someone who was raised with that trauma.
00;37;03;29 - 00;37;26;02
Robert Livingston
That's right. That's right. And I think what one thing people say about the book and they like about the book, is that it's almost clinical in its treatment of it. It's almost like, and I use a lot of metaphors because I studied, literature before. But, you know, being in the operating room, I'm like a surgeon and I'm saying, you know, scalpel, scissors this.
00;37;26;04 - 00;37;30;21
Robert Livingston
And everyone else is saying, oh my God, look at all that blood and gore in there, passing out and there.
00;37;30;23 - 00;37;32;17
Robert Livingston
And I'm just like, okay, suture.
00;37;32;19 - 00;37;34;03
Robert Livingston
And I'm able to sort.
00;37;34;03 - 00;37;35;02
Robert Livingston
Of be.
00;37;35;02 - 00;37;57;00
Robert Livingston
Perform this surgery, with without being emotionally affected by all the blood and gore, because I have the skill, it's focused and I'm really, in sort of a different space than someone who has had to deal with the trauma. That makes sense.
00;37;57;00 - 00;38;15;29
Onjalé Scott Price
Now that that does make sense. That sounds amazing. Like just an amazing place to be and to be able to work from. So do you do you get tired by this work then? Do you feel exhausted ever about having to talk about these topics, to ever feel like you have to retreat to somewhere and and refill your cup, so to say?
00;38;15;29 - 00;38;42;12
Robert Livingston
Yeah, oh, I'm going to answer that question. But there's one more thing that I want to add absolutely about this. My parents were both entrepreneurs. So because of that, both both of my parents were really bold. And so I remember once when I was maybe 12 or 13 and I was with my mother and my godmother and my God sister, who was one year younger than me, and we were doing back to school shopping, and my mother decided, oh, we got to buy a new car.
00;38;42;12 - 00;39;03;19
Robert Livingston
So she went to the dealership and there was a salesperson who came who was a white salesperson and say, good afternoon, ma'am. Right. And she was like, dressed to the night because my mother was always very stylish. And my and she said, good afternoon. What can I take you? And she jokes even today that white men have always fancied her, but that's a whole different thing.
00;39;03;19 - 00;39;04;03
Robert Livingston
But, you know.
00;39;04;10 - 00;39;05;17
Rev. Will Mebane
I think I want to hear more.
00;39;05;18 - 00;39;09;17
Speaker 5
No, no, no, because this is how we're getting so much into my life. And I want to go back to the book.
00;39;09;17 - 00;39;25;18
Robert Livingston
But this is important, because, you know, we came up to her and, and he was like, you know, how can I help? You know, is there anything I can find for you today? And she said, well, maybe, you know, in a very polite way. She says, I was wondering if you could find me a black salesman.
00;39;25;20 - 00;39;27;23
Robert Livingston
Are there any black salesmen who work at this dealership?
00;39;27;23 - 00;39;28;19
Onjalé Scott Price
And.
00;39;29;13 - 00;39;32;10
Robert Livingston
And we did that just when you did, my sister and I were.
00;39;32;10 - 00;39;34;22
Robert Livingston
Like, oh, my God, what did you do? You know.
00;39;34;24 - 00;40;07;11
Robert Livingston
And, you know, we were giggling like, nervous. You know, preteens and, he said, sure, ma'am. Let me let me try to find someone. I'll be right back. And she turned to us and say, I'm not going to spend my money here. If they haven't employed any black people. And this was in the early 1980s, and that was the kind of lesson that I got is, you know, you don't need necessarily take this passive role that she was really you know, we've got now this, you know, these campaigns to buy black and whatever.
00;40;07;11 - 00;40;28;02
Robert Livingston
She was doing this 35 years ago. And you know, those were lessons to me as well, because they didn't have to deal with the politics of a workplace like we have to deal with. Because when you're an entrepreneur, all you have to be as good and so is it was really. So anyway, like I said, my upbringing was not typical.
00;40;28;02 - 00;40;50;13
Robert Livingston
It wasn't, you know, and there was no anxiety anywhere in my household about white people or feeling like you needed to, you know, be submissive or hold your tongue or not hold your head high and be proud. But not at the same time, not militant, because this enabled me. As you know, I've got houses in Europe and, once you had.
00;40;50;13 - 00;41;08;19
Robert Livingston
And it's almost like a child when they feel secure, they wander more. A child that feels secure is able to go off and play by themselves. And they come back and they look to see if the caregivers there. But they're able to sort of go off and and do more things than the child that's, you know, not as secure because they cling.
00;41;08;21 - 00;41;29;19
Robert Livingston
I never clung, because of the security, I was able to go to Europe. I've also been in Africa. I was able to go to Australia, but I've also been to Brazil and all throughout South America. So I feel that this upbringing has given me sort of the courage and the fortitude, to explore not just the world, but the truth.
00;41;29;22 - 00;41;54;11
Robert Livingston
I've never felt threatened by the truth. And I think that's one of the things that the book seeks to uncover is the truth. And I can't presume to know what the truth is because it's a constant process of discovery. But I think that sense of security has at least put me in a position of being able to question and reality.
00;41;54;11 - 00;41;55;12
Onjalé Scott Price
And to write and do the.
00;41;55;12 - 00;41;56;00
Rev. Will Mebane
Work you're doing.
00;41;56;00 - 00;42;01;01
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah, exactly. And to do the work. So so you mentioned about getting back to the book and I, I.
00;42;01;01 - 00;42;03;16
Robert Livingston
Know this is obviously we always want to talk about know.
00;42;03;16 - 00;42;04;28
Onjalé Scott Price
It is really fascinating because.
00;42;05;01 - 00;42;06;15
Rev. Will Mebane
You have you come back for another.
00;42;06;19 - 00;42;08;07
Onjalé Scott Price
Yeah. Yeah. Well we'll have you come back. You know.
00;42;08;09 - 00;42;09;02
Rev. Will Mebane
In your personal.
00;42;10;27 - 00;42;31;00
Onjalé Scott Price
But to get back to the book, I'll start with, with a question about chapter one, which is do we all agree that racism, racism exists? So you talked about you know, that's the baseline. We have to all agree that it exists. And you you go into definitions a bit. And what is racism? And you also talk about how to have these conversations with white people, how to make them feel valued.
00;42;31;03 - 00;42;54;20
Onjalé Scott Price
Let them know that you don't think they're evil because they may have done or said the wrong thing. So as people of color, we black people specifically talk about us. You know, we try to have these conversations. There's a thin line to walk between trying to make someone feel, comfortable enough to be open and have the conversation not to be, you know, pushed away, but to also feel like we're not coddling white people.
00;42;54;23 - 00;42;58;15
Onjalé Scott Price
Where is where do we find that balance? How do you get to that balance?
00;42;58;18 - 00;43;27;04
Robert Livingston
I think part of it is getting a sense of the motives and the values of the person that you have in the conversation with. So, as you know, in the book, I talk about three types of people dolphins, ostriches and sharks. So dolphins are people who are pro just as pro community friendly. Sometimes they bump beaks, but they're generally strongly invested in the well-being of others in the community.
00;43;27;06 - 00;43;51;25
Robert Livingston
Ostriches, on the other hand, are indifferent. They bury their heads in the sand. They're like, you know, see no evil here, no evil. Speak no evil. Wake me when it's done. I'm not pro justice. I'm not anti justice. I just live my life according to my own self-interest. Sharks actually want there to be a social hierarchy. As long as they're the apex predator.
00;43;51;27 - 00;43;59;20
Robert Livingston
They want a situation of inequality so that they can dominate and exploit.
00;43;59;22 - 00;44;27;11
Robert Livingston
There's really no use in having a conversation with a shark. That's not going to get you very far. And by the way, research has suggested these are real categories. I talk about it in the book. About 46% of the population are dolphins. When you ask people, 95 to 100% will say they're dolphins. But in actuality, when you measure it, 46% are dolphins, 40% are ostriches who are just sort of apathetic, and then another 14% are sharks.
00;44;27;14 - 00;44;54;04
Robert Livingston
My book and my approach is best suited to dolphins because dolphins have an intrinsic motivation. They don't always do the right thing right, and they don't always leap as they should. Sometimes they just swim, but having the conversation with them is time well spent because there is a genuine motivation. And there's research that shows that when you point out the discrepancy between someone's values and their actual,
00;44;54;07 - 00;44;55;23
Robert Livingston
Actions.
00;44;55;25 - 00;45;17;13
Robert Livingston
And you give them a chance to do better, that they will reduce that gap between what they believe truly and what they do. Now, the ostriches don't really believe it. There's just sort of, mercenary or, or self-interested or, you know, choosing the path of least resistance. So these are the swing voters. Oh, we're going this way.
00;45;17;13 - 00;45;43;26
Robert Livingston
Great. Oh, now we've changed. We're going this way. Great. I'm just going to, you know, choose the path that's going to give me the least hassle. The dolphins are actually intrinsically investigated or invested. The sharks will not cooperate no matter what. And I think for them. So. So I'm bringing this up, Andrew, because I've had a lot of these debates with activists who say, let's just burn it down, you know, or other people say, no, they're wrong because they're too militant.
00;45;43;26 - 00;46;09;21
Robert Livingston
And the thing is, I think there is a place for all approaches to social justice. The strong militant activism actually works for sharks. It may be too heavy handed for dolphins. And so I think you sort of need to match the approach to the audience. I did write this book for sharks. And so to answer your question, if I'm going to engage you, there's at least an assumption on my part.
00;46;09;21 - 00;46;31;17
Robert Livingston
It may not be the reality, but there is an assumption that you have approached this conversation with an earnest and sincere desire to understand yourself and to better yourself, and to walk the path of social justice. And if that's the case, then I don't think it's cowardly, and I don't think it's I think it's and again, this isn't for everyone.
00;46;31;24 - 00;46;57;06
Robert Livingston
I do this and I teach people and I have these conversations because this is my job. If you're a black engineer that works for IBM, that's not your job. Your job is writing code or whatever it happens to be. So I'm not saying that everybody has to do this, but for me, that's sort of the way that I determine whether, you know, this is something that's, you know, worthwhile or not.
00;46;57;08 - 00;47;06;03
Rev. Will Mebane
So how Anthea so how has the book been received by the dolphins and the sharks and the ostracism?
00;47;06;09 - 00;47;08;29
Robert Livingston
Well, the sharks, I don't know, because they would never read it.
00;47;09;02 - 00;47;09;13
Rev. Will Mebane
Okay.
00;47;09;13 - 00;47;30;22
Robert Livingston
Right. This isn't the kind of thing that I don't know, Donald Trump would pick up and read on a Saturday afternoon like it's just not, or Vladimir Putin or, you know, that the this isn't the kind of literature that that, would, would maybe interest them, from the dolphins and the ostriches. I think it's been well received.
00;47;30;24 - 00;47;47;28
Robert Livingston
So, so one of the things that surprises me, and, you know, this, Andrey, it was named as a Financial Times best book of 2021. And I was shocked when I got the call because it's like, and you've got that version of the book snake, because that's the British version of the book, the yellow one. And this is the American version of the book.
00;47;48;00 - 00;48;17;28
Robert Livingston
And I thought, well, like these white British people. And they actually held the award ceremony at the National Gallery in Trafalgar Square. And then, on the other hand, I was nominated for an NAACP Award for Outstanding Literary Achievement, Black Americans. And you may remember this early on, and, I was trying to write a book for everybody, and the publisher was saying, no, pick your audience and get real hardcore and real militant or real sort of, passive and docile.
00;48;17;28 - 00;48;36;07
Robert Livingston
You know, if it's a white artist at the end, I said, no, I am focused on the truth. Like it's not heavy handed. It's not a velvet glove. It's just coming at people and saying, this is what it is. And I think if I do that in the right way, it will appeal to all audiences. And they push back and say, well, a book that's for everyone is a book for no one.
00;48;36;07 - 00;48;57;19
Robert Livingston
And I said, well, no, I'm doing this. And so that was very validating for me to see such diverse audiences around the world and even in Canada, I'm working with governments. I'm on now the racial equity committee at Davos, in Switzerland of the World Economic Forum. So there are a lot of people in Switzerland, in Germany reading the book.
00;48;57;19 - 00;49;16;25
Robert Livingston
So, you know, it's it's been really interesting to me and a bit unexpected to see, and, you know, the reviews on, they're great. They're great. Like, I look every now I'm like, oh, am I going to get someone going to trash? And I'm waiting. But it's now have it has hundreds of reviews on Amazon and.
00;49;16;27 - 00;49;17;03
Onjalé Scott Price
And.
00;49;17;03 - 00;49;17;08
Onjalé Scott Price
They're all
00;49;17;08 - 00;49;26;05
Robert Livingston
good. Even the one that was bad was like, you know. And I picked up this part. They said Doctor Livingston's very sincere, but I just don't. And I'm like, good.
00;49;26;08 - 00;49;27;05
Robert Livingston
Because at least.
00;49;27;05 - 00;49;44;22
Robert Livingston
Like the people who are trashing me are like, you know, so that was that was the goal to and I feel that's, that's something that I'm very proud of because I wanted to write something from the heart that I felt that, anyone could pick up and read and, and get something from.
00;49;44;26 - 00;50;00;00
Onjalé Scott Price
So I'll tell you, I, of course, read this version multiple times, and Andre read the UK version. That's just the one that he picked up. We were in the living room, and so many times while reading the book, he would stop and he'd look at me on the other couch, he'd say, and he would read a sentence or two or a paragraph.
00;50;00;00 - 00;50;19;12
Onjalé Scott Price
He's like, I feel so seen. I just this is just so validating, not just to have you write it, but to have you cite other literature, to have you cite the research that just proves the way that he's felt on so many occasions, and me as well. But it took him so long to read the book because every like three pages he'd stop and say
00;50;19;14 - 00;50;35;21
Onjalé Scott Price
And then he'd read something like, yeah, babe, I've read the book a couple times, but he was just so excited to feel so seen. And I also know why people thinking about George and how excited he was to read the book. And and we still talk about it all the time. He's like, oh, do I do this? Yeah, sometimes, but that's okay.
00;50;35;21 - 00;50;51;02
Onjalé Scott Price
But it's great that you're reading this and you were asking and then we're working towards not doing that, like you said, kind of bridging that gap. And so I can definitely agree from my experience of how it's, it's touched and, and just been so valuable for people on both ends of the spectrum.
00;50;51;02 - 00;50;53;19
Robert Livingston
Yeah. So that's all we're.
00;50;53;19 - 00;51;29;07
Rev. Will Mebane
Living in, in a, in a world, where everybody has gotten religion. I'm not talking about my form of Christianity, but around diversity, equity, inclusion and Dei. You know, that's the hot buzzword. That's the Hot acronym. Now. So is your book with your book be helpful to institutions, organizations that are truly committed or trying to commit themselves to that kind of work?
00;51;29;09 - 00;51;55;00
Robert Livingston
Oh, yeah. That's that's so, you know, in the subtitle I write, you know, how seeking and speaking the truth about racism can radically transform individuals and organizations. So part of my audience, and having spent 15 years teaching in business schools, part of my wheelhouse is dealing with corporate leaders. And I often tell leaders, you can't change the world, but you can change your world.
00;51;56;09 - 00;52;05;28
Robert Livingston
And I like dealing with corporations because there's no Congress, there's no Senate, there's no you make the rules and that's it. Right. And now it's law.
00;52;05;29 - 00;52;09;13
Rev. Will Mebane
If you want to burn Twitter down go ahead and do that. That was like.
00;52;09;16 - 00;52;17;04
Robert Livingston
Yeah it's yours. You can do it right for better or for worse. So you know, productive or destructive work. Yeah, right. It's your.
00;52;17;04 - 00;52;44;03
Robert Livingston
Sandbox. Now with CEOs, it's a little different because they have a board of directors that holds them accountable. And I've found in my work that the perfect partnership is having both a CEO and a board that are on board, because then the sky's the limit in terms of what you can do. And I always tell them, you know, you can't boil the ocean because people look out into the world and say, oh my gosh, there's so many problems, but you can boil the water in your pot or kettle, and an organization is a big pot or kettle.
00;52;44;04 - 00;53;16;07
Robert Livingston
There's often 20,000 to 200,000 people in that organization. And so I do believe that a lot of these organizations that have genuinely, adopted this religion and are genuine converts and believers, but don't quite know how to integrate it into their day to day living. Do benefit from this book. I mean, I've had like in some of the even endorsements on the back because I worked with Brian Chesky, who's the founder and CEO of Airbnb.
00;53;16;07 - 00;53;36;01
Robert Livingston
And he's, you know, I worked with him for years. And there are many other leaders, across the fortune 500, I've worked with the judiciary, here in Massachusetts, and other states and Oregon and Georgia. I just came back from a judiciary conference, in Memphis with judges from all over the world. I've worked with nonprofits.
00;53;36;04 - 00;54;02;13
Robert Livingston
I just my trip to California just last week was with the Hilton Foundation. I've worked with the Obama Foundation. I've worked with the YWCA in Boston, you know, just a variety of different organizations, literally hundreds of organizations. And, many of them have told me, because my job is to provide them with both the inspiration and the plan of action necessary to really move the needle.
00;54;02;16 - 00;54;30;15
Robert Livingston
You know, I wrote a case about Massport here in Massachusetts, where they changed their criteria for who's granted, contracts to develop on their land large scale half billion dollar projects. And now 25% of your score is diversity, equity and inclusion. It used to be 33% was whether you had the money, 33% was whether you had the team and infrastructure, and 33% was whether you had the right design, esthetically and functionally.
00;54;30;17 - 00;55;00;16
Robert Livingston
They kept those three added diversity, made them all 25%. So your diversity plan counts as much as your financial capital now. And it changed the game for how developers. So it's helping, you know, and that's an example that we always use. There are other organizations that have really changed, the game and, and, and, you know, benefited people of color and people from socially could, socially disadvantaged groups more broadly, by changing their policies.
00;55;00;18 - 00;55;27;08
Robert Livingston
But but one mantra of mine is that it's not necessarily about hearts and minds. It's about actions and behaviors, and it's about getting people to do the right thing. And if you get into that habit, then the more positive attitudes will come. It's almost like, you know, taking a sip of beer the first time no one likes beer is inherently bitter, but if you keep drinking it, you'll acquire a taste for it.
00;55;27;10 - 00;55;40;28
Robert Livingston
So the repetition behavior will actually lead you to an acquired taste. But you can't change how you feel about, beer. Just by sheer force of will. You have to actually drink it.
00;55;42;01 - 00;55;49;09
Rev. Will Mebane
Say that again. That. It's not about changing hearts and minds, but it's about.
00;55;49;11 - 00;55;53;22
Robert Livingston
Changing actions, behaviors, habits, policies.
00;55;53;23 - 00;56;02;25
Rev. Will Mebane
Because I come from a place where we're all about trying to change minds. I am trying to change people's hearts and minds. Right. But you're saying something different.
00;56;02;25 - 00;56;31;09
Robert Livingston
I am, and I think it's just the sheer feasibility of it. So imagine that there's a taxi driver in New York City who really has a strong aversion towards Muslims, and the person is driving the taxi and sees a muslim couple standing in the rain, in the cold, on the sidewalk. Well, often based on what we know about unconscious biases and attitudes, you can't just flip them off and on like a switch.
00;56;31;11 - 00;56;51;03
Robert Livingston
Just, you know, I love chocolate. I can't flip that off. I wish I could and I don't like celery sticks and carrots. I wish I could flip that on, you know. Would that be great if I could love celery sticks and carrots and and hate chocolate. You know, my, my weight loss challenges would disappear. But we don't have that kind of control over our minds or our heart, our visceral processes.
00;56;51;05 - 00;57;08;16
Robert Livingston
But what that taxi driver can do is decide, I'm going to do the right thing. I'm going to stop and pick up this couple. I'm going to treat them with kindness and compassion and dignity and respect, and I'm going to get them from point A to point B, which really is the only thing the couple cares about because they need to get out of the cold and rain.
00;57;08;16 - 00;57;29;07
Robert Livingston
They're not trying to be the best friend. As the taxi drivers driving, ask them how are you doing? And they say, oh, my kids are at school. They're doing this and you sort of form this human bond. If they give enough Muslims a ride, their attitudes will change. So it's not directly changing the hearts and minds. It's it's changing the behaviors.
00;57;29;09 - 00;57;35;08
Robert Livingston
And in the process of behaving differently, your heart and your mind will change.
00;57;35;10 - 00;57;37;01
Rev. Will Mebane
You have schooled me. You have no.
00;57;37;01 - 00;57;38;25
Robert Livingston
No, I but it's a different.
00;57;38;25 - 00;58;03;19
Robert Livingston
I'm in a different, sort of realm than religion. Your business is the soul. My business is spreadsheets and outcomes and all kinds of things that are more contingent on people's actions, than than than, you know, their desires. But I guess sin is about, actions to not really what you think, but, you know, that's that's going down.
00;58;03;20 - 00;58;08;05
Onjalé Scott Price
Like, there might be a rabbit hole. We're not ready. Okay. Yeah, I know. You ready for anything? Yeah.
00;58;08;06 - 00;58;10;18
Rev. Will Mebane
I'm always ready to talk about sin.
00;58;10;18 - 00;58;11;14
Rev. Will Mebane
Absolutely.
00;58;11;16 - 00;58;13;14
Rev. Will Mebane
Know, even though I'm an Episcopalian.
00;58;13;14 - 00;58;14;08
Robert Livingston
Okay.
00;58;14;11 - 00;58;42;25
Rev. Will Mebane
So my last question for years, we begin to wrap up. It's it's so you talked about all these incredible institutions for which you've done work and you're doing work all around the world, but you left out one group. And I just wonder, what about Congress? Can you work with Congress a little bit and and try to move the needle there to help us move in the direction that I think the three of us might want to see the country move?
00;58;42;29 - 00;59;09;14
Robert Livingston
You know, I don't know about that. I've worked with a lot of municipalities, mayors, and at Harvard, we have, a program every year where we give classes to freshmen congresspeople. But, you know, it's such a bizarre industry, if we want to call it that, where people are not even acting based on their own values or that there's this weird and there's a $10 word for it.
00;59;09;15 - 00;59;41;01
Robert Livingston
My field is called pluralistic ignorance, where people think they know what everyone wants, but everyone wants something different than what the person thinks they want. And it's it's called pluralistic ignorance. But I think a lot of people in Congress are guided by what they think other people, namely their voters, their constituents, want them to do, rather than what they themselves feel is right.
00;59;41;03 - 01;00;01;18
Robert Livingston
And so I think it's a crisis of courage, and I'm not really in that business like, you know, executive coaches that people like. But I think it's a crisis of courage. I don't think it's a crisis of awareness. I think they all know what's going on. I don't think it's a crisis of, you know, it's really one of moral conviction and one of courage.
01;00;01;21 - 01;00;29;28
Robert Livingston
And so that's sort of outside of my, wheelhouse. If they really didn't understand the issues or they really didn't understand what was going on or they didn't, they weren't aware of the impact of race on these things, on this or that, then I would be gung ho about it. But I think most of the members really do understand the problems and the issues, but they have made a choice, to behave in one way versus the other.
01;00;30;00 - 01;00;52;26
Robert Livingston
For the sake of political survival. Not all because we've had some courageous congresspeople who've, sacrificed at least their careers in Congress, to stand up for what they believe did. But, you know, those are few and far between. There are 435 members of Congress with 2 or 3. It's, you know, so sorry I can't begin.
01;00;52;28 - 01;00;58;03
Robert Livingston
As you know, the proverb says, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can.
01;00;58;06 - 01;00;58;24
Robert Livingston
The courage.
01;00;58;24 - 01;01;06;20
Robert Livingston
To change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference. I think I'm wise enough to know that's that's not something I can take on right now.
01;01;06;22 - 01;01;08;15
Onjalé Scott Price
Amen.
01;01;08;18 - 01;01;10;16
Rev. Will Mebane
Amen.
01;01;10;18 - 01;01;31;10
Onjalé Scott Price
I wish we had more time. I feel like there is so much more we could talk about, about your life, which is amazing. And your fantastic book that we encourage all of our viewers to get a copy of. It is sold locally, also online. I've had the pleasure of reading it multiple times, and I feel like every time it hits some parts hit a little bit, a little bit different every time.
01;01;31;12 - 01;01;32;19
Onjalé Scott Price
Thank you all for joining us.
01;01;32;20 - 01;01;41;21
Robert Livingston
It's the biggest compliment, by the way, when people say they read it every time or when they say they marked it all up, or they have post-its and things. Oh yeah, that's what I want people to do. Desecrate this book.
01;01;41;23 - 01;01;44;13
Robert Livingston
When you get it, Mark all over it, dog.
01;01;44;13 - 01;01;47;10
Robert Livingston
You put, you know it should look a mess when you're done.
01;01;47;14 - 01;02;01;07
Onjalé Scott Price
Well, see, I didn't I didn't write in this book what you did, but, the PDF versions that I have, the word doc, versions that I have, those those have all kinds of stuff, all kinds of questions that I was hoping to get to. We just have to have you come back because I've got lots of stuff. I want to dig it a little bit more on.
01;02;01;13 - 01;02;11;12
Onjalé Scott Price
But thank you so much for coming, spending some time with us. This has been a really fantastic conversation. I feel like every time I talk to, I always learn so much and enjoy our conversation so much. Yeah.
01;02;11;12 - 01;02;14;08
Robert Livingston
So thank you for having me. This has been fun. Thank you.
01;02;14;11 - 01;02;35;16
Rev. Will Mebane
A pleasure. And thank you all for joining us for this. The 24th edition of The Conversation. We are grateful for you, for being with us and joining us now in studio, and we look forward to being with you for another episode of The Conversation. Until then.