Unlocking the Power of Neurodiversity in the Workplace with Sarah Ennor, Lawyer & Founder of Growth Counsel

In this episode, Sarah Ennor shares her journey with ADHD, debunks common myths, and offers practical advice for workplaces to support neurodiverse employees. Discover how understanding and accommodating different brain types can boost organizational performance and inclusivity.

00:00 – Introduction & Sarah Ennor overview
02:00 – What ADHD really means at work
06:20 – “People over policy” hot take
10:30 – Why employees don’t disclose ADHD
14:00 – Better approach: ask for outcomes, not labels
19:00 – Making invisible differences visible
23:50 – Biggest myth: ADHD ≠ laziness
29:00 – Sarah’s ADHD diagnosis story
33:30 – Understanding ADHD differences & self-awareness
36:30 – Rethinking work structures (time, productivity)
41:30 – Challenging norms like punctuality
48:20 – How companies can unlock performance
51:00 – One key fix: believe your employees
56:50 – Why this matters for business (cost + growth)
1:02:50 – Closing & where to find Sarah 

Creators and Guests

Host

Martin Hauck

Co-Founder of The People People Group & Host of From A People Perspective

What is From A People Perspective?

A podcast about fascinating professionals, how they got to where they are and where they’re going from the lens HR, Recruitment and People Operations hosted by Martin Hauck.

Martin Hauck (01:24)
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of from a people perspective. I'm your host Martin Hawk. And today we've got Sarah with us, Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (01:34)
Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

Martin Hauck (01:36)
⁓ Sarah, give us a quick little intro on on who you are, what you're up to. ⁓ I know by nature of it, but I always prefer folks introducing themselves. People tend to do a better job of introducing themselves than me.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (01:52)
I love listening to others introduce me because it's always so complimentary. yes, I'm a speaker ⁓ and I make ADHD human and profitable for organizations and law firms ⁓ who are looking to help the people that are already in their midst, the ADHDers already in their midst thrive and do their best work. And as a result of that, also the company will make the most money. So I go in and I talk about what it's like to have ADHD in the workplace, what it really means to have ADHD as opposed to the stigma.

Martin Hauck (01:56)
you

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (02:21)
and stereotype that we've all grown up alongside, including myself, ⁓ and then explain some simple tips and tricks that people can use right away without any power or money or permission. ⁓ They can just dive right in and start being supportive to their colleagues. On the side of that, because so many people tend to see themselves in my story, I also do ADHD booster calls, which are a blend of coaching techniques, consulting techniques, mentorship and peer support to help people kind of get headed in the right direction.

If they've seen themselves in my story, they've seen that their spouse or their child might have ADHD and they have questions they want to try to drill into. So those are the two things I do, primarily the speaking though. That's my main bread and butter.

Martin Hauck (03:04)
Cool, cool.

Awesome. No, and very excited to do this episode for a myriad of reasons. I myself have ADHD diagnosed a couple years back and I'm sure there's a whole bunch of stories and anecdotes and facts and figures and a million things to get into. Before we dive into all that, let's kick off things with a few icebreakers.

So if you're left with one album that you can listen to for the rest of time and only one, which album or artists would you choose?

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (03:41)
Graceland by Paul Simon. Because I know all the words and I would be able to have no problem singing along and it never gets old to act out the stories.

Martin Hauck (03:43)
Great slide.

Is that is that Simon and Garfunkel are different?

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (03:56)
It's the same Paul Simon, but he is on his own album.

Martin Hauck (03:58)
Okay. On his own.

They got into a little tiff or they're like known for their their their known for

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (04:03)
Yes, and then I

think they reconnected because I saw something where they were both singing in somewhat recently when they were older so I don't know if that's I'm sure it's not a full band reconnection but yeah they seem to be on speaking terms anyway you know

Martin Hauck (04:16)
time heals all wounds. Hopefully. Who knows?

All right, it's ⁓ midnight snack time. What are you going for the fridge, the pantry, the cupboard, you're driving somewhere, what's going on?

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (04:28)
So my house never has food in it, but what I try to have on hand all the time is salted cashews or salted pistachios when they're not having E. coli problems in the world. So that's probably what I would go for just to get something salty in my body.

Martin Hauck (04:45)
Cool, fair,

fair. And first gig ever, first thing you got paid for.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (04:52)
in my whole wide life. ⁓ I worked at a store called Byway for people that are old enough to remember that. Yeah. And it's actually kind of a funny story how I ended up there. My dad took away my allowance and said, you should get a job and you can't have your allowance until you find one. And then I found a job and I said, so now can I have my allowance? And he said, well, now you have a job. What do you need an allowance for? So.

Martin Hauck (04:53)
in whole wide world and life.

Yes.

Ha

ha ha.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (05:16)
Anyway, I making $6.85 an hour, so you know exactly what year it was now as well. it felt very good to be employed and earning my own money for sure.

Martin Hauck (05:27)
us. I forgotten so like by way haven't heard that in a hot second. Yeah, it's been that's like what the original og dollar store basically or

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (05:40)
Yeah, not quite dollar store, but low cost, like the OG Walmart giant tiger kind of place. And I'm realizing now that I've answered that question under severe pressure that actually I was paid for babysitting before that. But,

Martin Hauck (05:51)
Okay, that's fair. That's cool. Um,

so we're, I mean, a couple couple more, but leaning more into the sort of like, professional side of things and like the workplace and from a people perspective, sort of deal. What in this more like hot takes in one sentence, the workplace trend that needs to

be completely removed is

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (06:25)
Prioritizing policy over people.

Martin Hauck (06:28)
policy over people. Okay,

I dig that. Great managers always

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (06:36)
want to see their people succeed and care about them.

Martin Hauck (06:41)
And what's the flip side of that? Terrible managers.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (06:46)
don't understand that successful employees make them look good. Yeah.

Martin Hauck (06:50)
Okay, cool.

All right. I'm ready to kick things off. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling loose in limber. ⁓ Where, where do you where do you want to start? Like how how did you I mean, it's there's a long journey to where we are today. But what what makes the most sense? Where do want to begin?

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (07:11)
I really have no idea. I haven't thought about that at all. I mean, you're the host. What are the burning questions that you have or that other people that you've spoken to in the workplace? you spoken to, actually, let's talk about that. Have you spoken to people in HR roles who have raised the issue of ADHD or neuroinclusion with you and expressed concerns or challenges that they're facing at work?

Martin Hauck (07:32)
Absolutely. It comes up in the community regularly. I would say once every two months or so, we'll see someone within the community just kind of pop in and say, Hey, somebody's identified themselves as neurodiverse, and they are looking for support. And we don't have the faintest idea of how to do that typically.

And so it's, coming from a good place, but also coming from a place that we don't know what we don't know. And they're usually looking for recommendations for people and places and things to do and people that can talk to you about it. ⁓ so that it is a, it is a thing. wouldn't say it's like crazy common. It feels like it's becoming more and more common for, for a number of reasons, but, ⁓ yeah, that's, that's kind of how it surfaces within the people.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (08:24)
Right, so sounds like I'm on the right track with my booster calls where people can kind of get some direction at least and some resources to send them off in the right direction. ⁓ One of the things that I find is that although there are sometimes people that will come up and disclose, it's really tough to expect people to do that, right?

I was laughing when I started to realize what all the symptoms of ADHD were as I was learning in my own journey. And, you know, I laugh, especially when it comes to lawyers, just, you people, we don't have that many that have ADHD here. Well, how many of them are going to walk up to you and say, I'm impulsive and I can't hold my tongue very well. I don't really.

express empathy in the way that people expect me to. My organization, my memory, my time management, you know, they're all kind of challenged from time to time or always depending on the thing for that individual person. So are we going to enumerate every single thing that in theory the world thinks makes you good at a job in an organization and tell a manager that I struggle with all of those things? So, ⁓ you know, I think there's probably also a lot more people that don't even ask for the help. ⁓

was talking to another group recently and I said, you know, because I mentioned about policy over people over policy and the reality is if the policy is too challenging, if it's too much reading, if it's too much hunting, if it's too much paperwork, if it's too many appointments with doctors and documentation, I'm just not going to take advantage of it. You know, I'm lucky that I can get by without maybe some support if I'm in a fast paced enough environment. But I think, you know, there's so many people who if it was easy to

just find these simple solutions and start with little things. The biggest thing being self-compassion for myself and for how I operate, rather than thinking I'm doing it wrong because this is what the world tells me is the right way to do it. ⁓ Yeah, that's what I hear as well. mean, companies are not really talking about it out loud very much yet. They're starting to, but it's a slow road in that respect.

Martin Hauck (10:27)
There's, mean, maybe this is a hot take, but this is, I would love your perspective on this. I'm, it comes out every once in a while we have an anonymous question option in the community. So every, every day we've got an anonymous question that's getting posted. And every once in a while we'll have somebody say like, do I disclose whether it's, it's just anything to do with, do I disclose this to my employer?

And I think for my like, anyone who answers that is obviously typically going to be answering from their own perspective, right? This is my lived experience. So mine is like comes from some places of privilege, first off. And and then on top of that, it comes from a place of you know, where I am in my life at that time. And I've had the ability to

disclosed to employers ⁓ in the past. And when I when I did, I don't know that I loved the outcome. But that's specific to that employer that manager and, that moment in time, I guess, do you have like a hard take or ⁓ like, here's the framework, here's here's when and if you should disclose to your employer that you do have ADHD or you are

spectrum in some kind of capacity.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (11:56)
Of course

not, Martin. ⁓ I am a lawyer, so the answer is always it depends. ⁓

Martin Hauck (12:01)
Yeah.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (12:02)
But

let me answer it in a couple of ways. So first, I'll start from my own perspective, as you just have. So as you mentioned, I come with a lot of privilege. I'm already educated. I have had very senior roles. I've been very successful. Now I'm self-employed, so I can tell people if I want to, and I don't get fired for it. ⁓ That's part of why I do this work, is because I can show what it looks like and be an open book. And people can see themselves in the story without having to go ahead and disclose themselves. I also don't care what people think.

of me. I'm pretty confident, you know, I'm not worried about it if they fire me. have every confidence I would get another job if I was working. So again, place of privilege, life stage, confidence levels, all of those things I think are relevant for me and they are relevant for everybody to consider. But I think the real question for people is, like you said, people can react badly. An example for me actually that's not really about employment, but I've been hiring, for example, assistants trying to get a virtual assistant to give me a hand. And I've experienced

that when I mentioned that I have ADHD, the focus goes on to the ADHD. it's like, OK, well, I have a friend or family member with ADHD, so I get it. And these are all the things that I need to do for ADHD. But the reality is, what I need for support is different than the next person with ADHD, because some of the symptoms are raging, and some of them are not. And that changes day to day. And I'm slowly getting to know what I need for support. So my recommendation for people thinking about disclosing is, first of all, to try to gauge what safety

there is in the organization if you want to disclose. ⁓ Sometimes it'll be disclosed to a particular person that it's relevant to. It might just be a colleague, it might be a manager if you feel comfortable that they will respond well and respect that. But I think there's never really a good, it's hard to know, right? Like you said, you might think someone is amazing and they're gonna be so supportive and responsive to your needs and then they're not.

So what I actually recommend is rather than leading with the disability, with leading with the condition that you have, lead with the outcome that you're hoping to achieve.

Martin Hauck (14:06)
I like that.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (14:07)
Yeah, so I have million examples that I give in my talks. One might be, hey, Martin, I know that you want to meet with me weekly for a touch point. I'm at my best in the afternoons. Could we not schedule them for 8 o'clock in the morning on a Monday so I can be fully present? The outcome being I want to be there in the meeting and focus and understanding what you're saying and not so groggy from not having had my morning coffee kick in yet or whatever it is. ⁓ I need to work from home so that I can actually just have some silence

and some uninterrupted time so I can stay focused on my work for this specific project.

you know, is it all right if I do that for three days next week just to get through this particular thing? So you're asking for little minor accommodations that in a lot of places wouldn't be an accommodation, right? Like when I was a senior lawyer inside a bank, if I disappeared for an afternoon to go to doctor's appointments or I decided I was working from home, it wasn't really an issue. I just had to tell someone where I'd be and how they could contact me. And so we get really bunched up sometimes by the formal words of like, OK, here's the diagnosis and here's the formal accommodation that we need. But when they're so simple like these things I'm

describing, working at a different time, working from a different location, putting on noise canceling headphones so I'm not disturbed by the noise around me in an open plan office. No, I'm not trying to keep everybody from speaking to me and seeming anti-social. I just need to not be distracted by the noise. And so I didn't need to tell you I had ADHD for any of these things. And so the cool part about it is these tools actually work for anybody in any workplace with any difference. If you said to me, hey, Sarah,

⁓ we've been trying to close this deal for months and so and so is a problem. We need to send an email and just tell them that they've got to do better and smack them down and tell them aggressively that they've got to get this thing done. I might respond with, I don't really feel comfortable being that aggressive with these people. Do you mind if I say it in my way, in a more collaborative way, but I'll copy you on the email as my manager. And if you think that something more aggressive needs to be said, maybe you can step in and do that so I feel comfortable.

I didn't need to tell you potentially that I don't know, I had childhood trauma and aggressive or argumentative behavior really, really gives me anxiety. I just had to say the outcome is that I want is we want this thing to get done. Here's how I'm capable of doing it. Here's how you can support me if you want to see it done a different way. So I think there's so many ways to follow those kinds of formulas to get the result rather than worrying about saying I have ADHD, I need formal accommodations, you know, but it takes some self-reflection.

You've got to make the list and you've got to explore with yourself what helps and turn it into a bit of an experiment because you're going to try something that might not work with a given person. You've got to try something new.

Martin Hauck (16:54)
one. One thing that and I don't know where this isn't going to necessarily lead, but I have a couple of threads I want to tug on. ⁓ I find that the quickest path to empathy is experience, right? You know, like, for you to be empathetic for anyone to be empathetic going all of a sudden when you go through the thing that somebody else has gone through all of a sudden you're like, ⁓ this is this is how hard that thing is. And really, there's no real way to do that with

a lot of disabilities and because you know ADHD is largely invisible. ⁓ There's this, you know, the the expression of like, you accommodate somebody who broke their leg by opening the door for them and being kind and compassionate. And maybe they're not walking as fast to the meetings or anything like that. But you're like, yeah, Bill broke his leg. So he's on crutches, and it's going to take him a longer time. That doesn't really happen for for anyone.

really when when it comes to something like a condition that is invisible. And one of the like, one of the things that kind of is interesting is like, how do you quickly get everybody to experience something in such a way that makes the invisible visible in a way that doesn't necessarily have to like create this, you know, create stigma around it in the first place and

I did a talk maybe around three, four years ago, just around my life story. And I opened it up with this example of like, who here, you know, close your eyes, imagine an apple, right? And, know, people went to describe it. I'm like, how many and I had a picture on the presentation. And it was like, surprised it was talking about aphantasia, which is the inability to visualize something. And like, everybody's like,

For me, when I learned that like, oh, like 80 to 90 % of the world can like actually tangibly visualize something with their brains. And then like five less than 5 % can't like that was shocking to everybody in the room. They're like, Oh my God, our brains work differently. It's this is this is so shocking, right? And it felt like a really level setting ways. Like, is there any way to do that from your perspective and all your experience and expertise?

sort of do that in the workplace for a person that isn't like gives people a safe space to realize, ⁓ this person thinks differently or operates differently.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (19:24)
Well, the biased answer would be to bring me in to give a talk.

But ⁓ what I tend to do in my talks, I think it is for me the most effective way, is the storytelling, right? To explain how something actually happened for me. And the reason I think it works well when I do it is because they can see what success I've had before, right? Like, so I've got this credibility that I've been a lawyer, I've been, you know, head of policy development and governance, I've been, you know, senior counsel, I've been all these things. And yet, if I tell the story about how my day goes in terms of putting the dish

on in the morning if I've forgotten it the night before and the walking back and forth and being like, yeah, don't forget the dishwasher, reminding myself, don't forget the dishwasher all day. I want to wait till this coffee cup is done and then I want to put it in the dishwasher. And then you turn your back on it in the afternoon when you really get hyper-focused into your work day and turn around at dinnertime and the dishwasher hasn't been put on and you have to now order out and get Uber Eats and stuff like that, right? Like that's just a personal example. But there's all these examples at work too of how lateness plays out, how my empathy

being different from others plays out and just sharing what that would look like and what I find people can, it's not them experiencing it themselves necessarily, but they can relate to a time that someone did exactly what I described to them, right? Like they said, I asked them how they were, they said, I'm not doing so great, my dad just died and I'm like, my God, I have a dad and he was sick once and like I'm trying to find commonality and showing you how we have something in common here and you're offended that I seem to make it all about me and I'm not

attention to your sadness, right? And people can imagine that having happened to them and think, huh, that person maybe was not trying to be all about them, was not trying to be rude, was not trying to do any of those things. They just have a brain that embraces empathy in a different way. And by the way, when I say my dad died and you're just like, I'm so sorry to hear that. And then you wait for me to say something more like I don't have anything else to say. That was my story, right? But you can start to tell me about a time that you

Martin Hauck (21:23)
Yeah.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (21:25)
experience something similar, suddenly I feel like you're really seeing me and understanding. So it does travel in both directions. So those kinds of stories, I think, are where I try to help people along. But

Yeah, speaking of threads that we tug and don't know where they're going. I think I only just discovered that I can't visualize things. I I heard of this condition. I've always thought I can because I've talked about visualizing in the the in the sporting arena, for example, and how that has helped me in the past. But I've realized I'm not actually seeing physical thing like I must be experiencing it or I'm thinking about it or I'm having internal monologue that's describing it to myself that makes me still have an effective relationship with visualization. But I'm not

Martin Hauck (21:56)
Mm.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (22:07)
physically seeing anything. I don't see the apple. I see blackness and like things kind of floating in front of my eyes. Sometimes it's like clouds and they sort of form into something that might look like something, but there's never a 3D color rendering of anything in my mind. So that's like, I've discovered that in the last couple of weeks, I would say.

Martin Hauck (22:23)
Yeah.

Which is, mean, I've been, ⁓ when I found out about it a couple of years ago, it's when folks have ADHD, typically they're, more likely to have some form there. Their spec, their place on the aphantasia spectrum is far closer to like pitch black. don't see anything. I, I bring that up because that's that I had an aha moment where it's like, this is the way to get people to understand that. Like,

apart from like having to go through something with someone like, I'm sorry, that's just how like, this is how I process things. Or this is how I think it's just kind of like a safe level setting kind of conversation to be like, did you know this? And it's, frankly, like fascinating to like the entire, the entire world and everything we operate on kind of is like, how many times have you been in a circumstance to like visualize yourself?

you know, shooting the ball into the net or on your on a beach visualize yourself on a calm relaxing beach like what people were actually like going to that place and I was just the TV wasn't on like wild right I guess from from all the what's like top of mind for you in terms of like if if I could just get people to understand

this one thing about ADHD, what would that be?

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (23:54)
It is not a choice and it is not laziness. Like that is the biggest thing. It's actually a brain difference. Like the science is there, right? Now the science is not there enough for even doctors really to fully explain how and why ADHD exists and exactly how it's functioning in the brain and otherwise we'd be able to fix it. Not that I think that ADHDers need fixing, but.

you know, it's a difference in the way that we think that's actually really valuable in a lot of ways too, right? So I never have one thing. You can ask me all, tell the cows come home, give me one thing. I don't have one. I have a million. ⁓

So, you know, if I think differently and, you know, I don't know if you've read, think it's Seth Godin who talks about probably a book. I don't think he wrote it, but this book that sort of talks about how ADHDers are great as hunters because their attention is everywhere all at once and they're really attuned to the environment around them. They hear every creak and movement in the bush and wind and they smell things and they feel things. And so they're great hunters and other people who don't have ADHD.

Martin Hauck (24:51)
Well.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (25:04)
and maybe don't have that attention to detail or that breadth of attention that they're able to have just shooting out into the world all the time, might be better to do something in the camp in the olden times, right? Maybe they're the people who are going to be cooking or taking care of children or building things because they don't need to have that awareness in the way that ADHDers have. So there's so many different strengths that come along with having a different brain that functions differently.

And I remember being in my corporate world and having people talk about the differences in the ways people think. did, I think it was human dynamics. I wanted, there's two different ones, but I think it's human dynamics. And they go through, you know, the four different primary types of ways that people think. And I went through this course and they said, at the end, the deal was find the group that you fit with and you're going to do a group project.

So I went to all the tables and by the time I got to the third of four, was like, well, it's definitely not the fourth one for sure. And I don't feel like I fit here either. And the woman said, well, actually there's technically nine types. Four of them are what we talk about because they're the most common. Four of them are described in the book. The ninth one is like literally named and that's it. And they don't really go into it in the book. That's what you are. Like, perfect.

Martin Hauck (26:17)
Hahaha

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (26:19)
So this was before I was diagnosed. So like you, I was only diagnosed three years ago. So this has been a huge journey. This was something I was doing when I was receiving executive coaching and things at the bank because they saw what I was doing and were really impressed with the work I was doing, but weren't so thrilled with the EQ in the workplace and how I was bringing others along with me on the journey because of this personality type is what they all thought it was. Turns out these are all parts of my brain.

But it also means the reason they loved the work I did was because I saw the big picture. I saw the little details. I understood how the regulators fit with our product launches, fit with our operations people and our HR people and our tax people. And I could piece all that together, right? So they got great work product, but it came at the expense of me not being aware of my own.

personality and skills when it came to that emotional piece. So when I went to this course, and I was actually fascinated, I went back to my boss afterwards, did you know, like you said with the, like people think, the people sitting across the room from me that don't say anything in a meeting, like it's not that they don't have anything to say. They're just thinking in their heads and they're not ready yet because they haven't processed all the information. Like I am a verbal thinker.

I think when you asked me the first ⁓ quick question at the beginning, you said, where do you want to start? I was like, I have no idea. And I started talking it out. they're like, wait a second. Here's this thing. I just have to, in order to get to where I'm headed. And so to discover that those people didn't have nothing to offer, they weren't sitting in silence because they were dumb. They weren't sitting in silence because they couldn't care less about this meeting. They were sitting in silence because they were processing what was coming in.

So I have the strength of being able to speak right away and sound like I know what I'm talking about. And most of the time I do. And if I don't, it's going to get there as I speak more. But it's that curiosity, I think, that we need to have. That got me curious. That course got me curious. Like, huh, if that's true, then what else might be true? And so it's the core of what I teach in my work is like, we've got to start getting curious about people rather than going straight to judgment, the whole Ted Lasso curiosity, not judgment situation. ⁓

Martin Hauck (28:06)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (28:27)
So.

Martin Hauck (28:29)
what, ⁓ can you dive into sort of your aha moment? Cause it happened recently, ⁓ for you and, you've got this incredible background beforehand, right? Like when you would say ADHD and we can go into that other threat as well in terms of like there's inattentive and, ⁓ and, and not, and hyperactive, but when what was, yeah, can you, can you dive into the

the area when it's like, okay, you had this aha moment. How did you discover it? What were you feeling when you realized it? What's the journey been like since?

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (29:05)
Sure. So it came up, I was at a baby shower cocktail party.

And I was right in a weird spot in my business. I had launched my own sole practice, practicing law. And I was in the midst of thinking about how I was going to reformat what I was doing because it wasn't I wasn't in love with it anymore. didn't you know, I loved actually lawyering in house when everything was on fire and everything was an emergency. But now I'm servicing smaller businesses. They don't value legal in the same ways. You know, how am I going to rejig this business so that it's not just following the same old pattern? And it works for me and it works for my clients. So I was at this party and

⁓ as people do, the first question is what do you do these days or what have you been doing since I saw you last? And I was talking to the third person where I was describing this evolution of my business and I was gonna do this and this and this but then I realized that I'm still gonna be doing the work that I don't love. Then I changed it to this and then I realized I was gonna have to do a whole bunch of... ⁓

like administrative stuff that was going to be scary and difficult. So now I'm taking this approach. And the third person I said this to just kind of stop me on the third one and said, do you think you have ADHD? Because I'm seeing I said, like, why I was curious why she would even say that because it had never occurred to me I was shocked. And she said, well, there's a lot of great ideas and not a lot of like completion and execution on those ideas from what you're describing. And that was just interesting to me. Luckily, I have enough confidence that I don't really experience RSD.

rejection sensitivity much. you know, I was like, okay, well, interesting. So I walked around for the next number of weeks asking friends, would play basketball, like this lady randomly asked me this question, like, do think it would be weird of me to go to the doctor and ask if I should be diagnosed? And my phone started listening to me as it does, I think, and I started getting reels. And at first, I thought, okay, well, that's like, somewhat familiar. And this thing isn't me at all. ⁓ But I did eventually ask because I was seeing enough and then I found

a quiz online and I took that and it looked like I was headed in that direction.

And I was referred to a psychiatrist, did ⁓ an assessment and he said, yeah, you've got 15 of the 18 symptoms and that's my viewpoint that you have ADHD. And he offered me medication to try to see, like you can do it as a trial, right? Stimulant medication, you can try it once and stop it and it doesn't really affect you much. ⁓ And he said, if it doesn't work, you don't have ADHD and I'm wrong and we got to go to the next thing. And if it works, then I'm correct.

So I did. that was the first day I tried medication. I was floored. I just thought, I had no idea. This is how other people's brains can be, that they can be so quiet, that there's not so many thoughts running around in their head, that they can go from doing one thing and then go be distracted on a side quest and come right back to the same thing and continue. Remember what they were doing, where they were working on the document, and continue that work. That had never happened to me. Side quests are hour long. Now I'm having a shower.

checking Facebook and calling someone else and starting a new project and forgetting what it was that I was working on, right? So the journey has been strange because, I mean, you look at reels, you talk to other people, and you very quickly realize that they're not lying about their experience, but we experience it so differently. So the Aphantasia one is a good example, but others were like you'd watch a reel where someone's coming down the stairs and you hear all these voices like, don't forget to put that banana in the garbage, where are my keys? I have to be at this place by this time.

Martin Hauck (32:07)
Yeah.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (32:33)
and don't forget to pick up the kids and like that's not I don't experience it that way but then as I moved through the journey I realized but I do experience that exact symptom I just don't hear it as voices right thoughts are there for sure but it doesn't sound like people speaking to me and so I got very distracted by that literal

Martin Hauck (32:45)
Yeah.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (32:52)
⁓ example. And so I just feel so grateful, having pivoted to this work to just be able to be among people share my story, hear from other people learn how different it is for everybody else. Learn as I go about things that, you know, maybe still are rooted in stigma a bit like I had a conversation on a different podcast recently about the term superpower. And how I use that once and and learned very quickly in the chat that everybody at this conference was like, my god, you don't know how this ADHD impacts

I think it really minimizes the fact that I am disabled by this every single day. I cannot get these things done. I'm losing jobs. you know, all of these things. I haven't experienced it that way in the same, to the same extent. ⁓ So yeah, I get to learn every day alongside these people and share my story. So hopefully they learn as well. And it's just, it's been such a journey and it still is one. Like I don't know how one ever gets to the point where like, okay, this is exactly my neurotype and how it works because yeah.

Martin Hauck (33:51)
Yeah.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (33:52)
Thank

Martin Hauck (33:53)
Yeah. And I mean, no, it's, it's, appreciate you sharing that. And, and I mean, when I got to a place where I was comfortable enough to share with folks, it was as a result of like having other people share as well. And so it's just sort of this like, okay, maybe I should think about it for myself so that other people can think about it themselves. Cause when you do know, there's an interesting dynamic between not knowing and then

everything's a mystery. And, know, for myself, largely felt like a failure, like largely felt like I was always letting people down in these critical moments. I'm, know, I did great at my jobs in the past, but there was just things that I did not do well at. And that sucked, right? It sucks to let people down in some capacity. And then when you get diagnosed, and then you you round it out, and you're like, you look back on it, and you know, 2020 vision, when hindsight, it's like, ⁓

here's all these moments. And the easy thing I think to do is just put a label on and be like, okay, anytime I've let someone down, it's a result of like, ADHD. And it's, you know, there's, there's to a degree, there's some some relief, at least for myself to be like, okay, like, there's other things at play as to like, why some of those things happen, right. But then there's on the on the contrary, there's this level of like,

Well, I also just don't want to label anytime I make a mistake. I don't want to be like, well, that's ADHD fault and it's not mine. It's just the way my brain works. And like, I'm very conscious of like trying not to use language around it. And if anything, like to your point, constantly learning how to like, make tweaks to how I operate is how I function as a human being on a day to day basis to like, I mean, part of it is to like,

conform to the way the world works, because that's the reality of like, at the end of the day, there's certain things like, not every job is going to let you come in at 11 o'clock, because you're not functioning at your best, you kind of have to start at 9am. How do you change what you do at 9am, as opposed to, you know, saying like, listen, I can't work till 11. Well, good luck finding a job that's going to be like, you start at 11. So I guess what I'm trying to say is like,

I don't know. I'd love to hear your thoughts on on that train of thought.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (36:19)
Yeah, so part of why I'm doing the work I'm doing is because what I would really like is for organizations to start to look differently at people's needs, right? So yes, right now it's not, I came in at 11 o'clock just because I could, no one was on me every time I turned up late, ⁓ but I was very senior. I made a lot of money. I was already, I had already demonstrated my success in my role.

⁓ but what I try, so, and I have debated this a little bit myself because I think back, cause there is, there is this relief, okay, now I understand why the things I used to describe myself as just like, I'm just unmotivated and I'm undisciplined and you know, yeah, I just can't be on time for anything. I don't know why, like I'm just always late. And I didn't really understand it, but I just thought I was failing in those ways. I never felt a failure in work or school. I just felt like the things people were expecting of me. Like you said, you know, I'm, I'm, don't know why.

Everybody says that I don't leave space for other people and I don't have empathy in the way that people expect. Like, I'm a lovely person. I would want to be my friend if I were you. I don't understand what you're saying. I can't relate to this. And you're not telling me in an actionable way what I need to change either. But now.

I also think about like, what would I have felt if I knew this as a child, right? What I have when I wasn't developed enough to, as an adult now understand that I'd still have to take accountability for my actions, would I have sort of laid down and not have been as successful and not become a lawyer and not been an international athlete or any of those things, because I felt this label was an excuse for that behavior. I still feel like if I had my own parents, I wouldn't have because they've really empowered me to drive and strive

Martin Hauck (37:33)
Hmm.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (37:59)
for things, and I naturally tend towards that anyway. But what I look at when I think about changing, so first of all, another reason I'm so grateful to have this diagnosis is it's made me understand the ways that I've been, but also that means now I can be different in certain circumstances. So like,

Martin Hauck (38:16)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (38:18)
the empathy with my dad died, have a dad. Well, when someone's face drops, when I say I have a dad too, I can realize, you're not one of me. You're not an ADHD or you don't show empathy this way. I know what you expect. It's for me to say, ⁓ are you okay? Tell me more and to listen so I can adjust a little bit that way. But I also think about the changes that I want to make. I want to make them because they affect me.

And of course, like if it's something like it's offending someone, that's a different thing. Of course, I don't want to be rude to other people. But if someone is saying, I don't know, like if the issue is I'm not being as productive in a day or I'm not getting much done before 11 o'clock in the morning when I'm at the office.

Is that affecting me? And if so, how? And what's the outcome that I actually want to have? And when I can look at that and say, OK, it's really important that I get these particular tasks done in the morning. How can I force myself to do that? And I can come up with some tools.

But there is not going to be a time, I'm just, I've decided this, there's not going to be a time where I agree with the people who think that the rudest thing you could possibly do, the personal affront to me and my utter disrespect for me is to be late for anything. Like, you guys have been brainwashed. Like, it literally has nothing to do with you. I'm not late because I hate you. I'm not late because I think your time's worth less than mine. I'm late because I cannot be on time almost ever. I...

forget that to go to my physio appointment that I have to be driving for 25 minutes, but I also have to put my shoes on, brush my teeth, go down in the elevator to the minus four floor in the parking garage, drive out of four levels, go on traffic and then traffic changes because now it's closer to rush hour and then I'm late. Like it just, it's, that's how travel works for me. That is how being places works for me.

If I were joining this call, I'm surprised I was actually on before you today, but ADHD could explain it, who knows.

But like I might be sitting here thinking, okay, I've got to remember to get on with Martin. I got to remember to get on with Martin. And all of a sudden an email comes in and I look at it and then I'm responding to the email that I thought would take one minute and it took 10. And now I'm 10 minutes late for my call that I was just supposed to jump on. And I just lost track of it. Like I can't help it. ⁓ I try, I do put tools and things in place, but I will not agree with you that just because, with people, that just because society tells us being on time is such a critical thing to our lives that it is. Because objectively, it's not important.

If it was important, every time at work someone told me that this project had to be done by this date or we were all gonna die in a fiery breath and then just postponed it and pushed it out and pushed it out and then canceled the project to the end of the day, like that would have never happened if it was true that the timing mattered as much as they said, right? We use it to try to convince people to get them to do things when we want them to do them. It's a bit of a control thing. It's a bit of a programming thing, but we have to be able to accept.

that people are different and that they see time different. Like just go to the Caribbean. You know, I'm from Trinidad. My mom's from Trinidad. That's my background. Go anywhere in the Caribbean and someone tells you they're picking you up at 10. Yeah, right. And I went for a field hockey tournament in Barbados. The game's supposed to start at X time. The guy's not here. I'm sitting here worried like, oh my god, we're not going to be on time. We're not going to have time to warm up.

literally the tournament started late because they're just like, people aren't here yet, we'll just do it, you know, 20 minutes later. It's not as big a deal as people make it out to be ⁓ and when you can recognize that it's not a choice, ⁓ it makes it a lot easier to...

not be offended. We choose whether we're offended by things, right? We choose if we find it offensive that someone was late. We choose if we find it offensive that someone talked about their own experience. And if you can look at objectively, is this important? Does it affect me, either on the receiving end or the the end of the person doing the wrong thing? I think we get a lot further along.

Martin Hauck (42:19)
interesting. Now I'm not looked at I mean, admittedly, I've bought into the like, the

the the the social narrative around being on time. And it's incredibly stressful for me because being on time is difficult. And I have a cornucopia of things that I do to make sure that I am on time. And it's still it's still an uphill battle. But to your point, right, like, at the end of the day, especially in the bubble that we live in, like North America, like

Henry Ford in the entire reason we work five days a week as opposed to like three or two or whatever. That's that's all the industrial revolution in North America as a result of like car manufacturing. It's like, okay, that worked for that. But the working world has evolved umpteenth times over. ⁓ We can work differently. And it took it really took a pandemic for us to realize, we could all work from home.

and we can get work done at 6 PM to 8 PM for some people from 9 PM to 1 AM for others. And at the end of the day, as long as the work gets done within a larger timeframe, then then you're in good shape. ⁓ yeah, it's.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (43:44)
So what about just, like to your point, the pandemic taught us a lot. It taught me that the government can get money into my bank account within like three working days. Like why does it take so long to get my tax return? You know what mean? Like it taught me that I could work from home. It taught me that video calls can be just as effective as live calls. ⁓

I just, I had a conversation with someone where I was like, I just think we need to start to think about how we could do things totally differently as well. We're looking to like get back to the old way rather than looking at what is the outcome we want from the old way and how can we still get there, but do it differently, right? We'll, so an example, working from nine to five, what does that mean? It means it doesn't align with a school day for people who have kids. So there's challenges for those people.

Martin Hauck (44:36)
Yeah.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (44:38)
Having to be in person means that people with disabilities or who are overstimulated on transit are stuck trying to make their way into the office when they could actually be really a lot more effective if they were at home. It means that we have rush hours, right? Like imagine if we let people come in at staggered times throughout the day. What if we had a steady stream of transit and cars and things on the road and we had shift work for more people to have jobs working in say transit, for example, you if it was running all night and we had

to

have shifts. What if we, and then the people that work well in the night can take the night shifts, people that work well in the day can take the day shifts. ⁓ You know, like we've got all these things, then we've got people FaceTime or in the office, I'm not working my best in the mornings, Joe's not working his best in the afternoon because he's just thinking about how he has to go pick his kid up from soccer. You know, like all of this stuff is happening and what we're saying, but that's the way it's always been.

Martin Hauck (45:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (45:32)
What if we could say

that doesn't have to be the way it's always been? What if we could say even when it comes to our internal teams, and I use the lawyer example because it's a very, very heightened example of how everybody is expected to be able to do all the things equally as well. I'm supposed to know how to research, to write, to persuade, to argue on my feet, to bill clients, to do administrative work, to track my time. All of those things are things I'm supposed to do.

And yet, even if we weren't talking about ADHD, we're talking about introverts and extroverts. Like someone wants to be on a stage presenting to a board and another person wants to be in their office quietly researching. What if we could start to build our teams around their strengths, their interests, their lives, which we did a bit with COVID because we said we have to be patient. know, someone's might be sick. Someone's kid is in their house while they're trying to work. And of course, maybe they can work better when the kid is sleeping. Well, I can also work better in my office if no one is there.

So is that maybe okay for me to stay until 10 o'clock at night and do my work mostly in the evening? And I did, and I used to think, honestly, Martin, I thought I was the only person who cared about this work. Why am I the only one still here at 10 and 11 and 12 o'clock at night when this prospectus needs to be filed tomorrow? And everyone else has just gone home, including my external lawyers. Why don't they care? Why am I the only one?

And when I look back with this hindsight of my diagnosis, I think, wait a second, what did I ever get done before one in the afternoon?

I wandered around the office, I chatted with friends, I went for coffees, I had long lunches, I went on Facebook, on my computer. I did all of these things all day until I was at the point where my brain was ready to dive into something. Of course I was still there at 10 o'clock, didn't start working till two. Of course. So when I look back now, can say, oh, and maybe I looked good to some people, she's always there late, she's always answering emails from England at four in the morning. Why are you doing that? Well, I don't know, because I don't sleep heavily,

Martin Hauck (47:15)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (47:29)
So every bing bong on my Blackberry goes off and I respond. I'm a control freak. I want to answer the question first, all of these things. And then you wonder why, if I've been up all night answering questions the minute England got to the office at 8 AM, that I'm not too good at working at nine or getting there by nine even. There's these ways I think that we can start to rebuild.

And it's hard because there's so many people, right? We live in a world of billions. We work in corporations of tens of thousands. And building something that can work well without having sort of oversight over every little bit of it is scary. So I understand that it's not something that people are quite so receptive to yet. But.

That's why I think people over policy has to be the wave of the future, especially with AI coming in and dealing with so much of the non-human stuff.

Martin Hauck (48:24)
I am I like in your headline, you've got something to the effect of like, help make people with ADHD and companies that have those people profitable. And that kind of leads into what we've been talking about here in the sense that like, there is just, you've got all the right ingredients, but you're putting those ingredients together at the wrong times. And so you're not getting the best by by forcing

everyone doesn't matter you have ADHD just in general, right? Like there's this element of if if we were to rethink how you hire and why we hire people, right? It's it's if everything's ⁓ what's the expression like if everything is a nail, like a hammer is the only tool you use, I'm butchering the expression. But the the the thought is really it

kind of going back to like, there are some companies that use personality types to help determine right, they're like, ⁓ and I would say 99 % of the time, when companies use the personality test, it's because they feel as though they have identified a personality that works well for their organization and their culture. And frankly, I don't think that a ton of companies have very different, like, tell me a company that's not interested in high performance.

just in general, like every company wants people to perform well. And every company wants to say that the culture at their organization is fantastic. That being said, you're going to need a lot of different people. And ⁓ from a diversity perspective of thought, diversity of culture, everything, especially if you've got a global organization, you're serving multiple countries and doing an international business, you need all of those differences. And to put all of those people

and say, the only way you can accomplish your work is path a then then you're not getting the best out of your people. So I guess you've thought a lot about this. We've talked a lot about this is there and I know you don't have one thing but once one what's one one thing I'm still gonna ask it. What What are a couple of the things that you feel companies can do so they can start you getting the best out of

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (50:36)
Do, please.

Martin Hauck (50:49)
more of their employees, not necessarily all because that's you can't do everything for everyone. But especially for the neurotypical and neurodiverse folks, that sort of circumstance, like what are some things that companies can start doing so they just make it easier for people to do better in the workplace.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (51:05)
I am actually gonna give you just one for this, to be honest. ⁓ I think the biggest thing that companies need to do is to believe what people tell them they need, right? So like if I say...

I'm not at my best in the mornings. That doesn't mean you have to agree that I don't have to work in the morning. But you have to understand that I'm not going to be at my best in the morning. And you need to not overlay your own personal experience about how, I'm a morning person. I just go to bed early. And I just make sure that I get a good night's sleep. And then I'm at my best. So why don't you just change all the ways that you exist and be like me, right? The conversation I had with my brother about going to the gym. Well, just, I know one likes going to the gym, Sarah, but I just force myself. I just had an alarm in the morning and I make myself get up no matter what. I said, that's great.

But if I'm filtering his comment through my own mindset, and I've said it's impossible for me to go to the gym unless someone's waiting there for me and expects me and I have an appointment.

Martin Hauck (51:49)
Good to know.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (51:59)
then I assume that even though he just sets his alarm, that also for him works one time. And that's it, right? So he does it once and he gets up and he forces himself and then literally he doesn't go to the gym again for a year because he's burnt all of his energy on getting up that one time. It was horrific, right? But if we decide not to believe someone, if we say, like if I say, I really have a hard time being on time, I have no relationship with time, I don't understand how time works, I don't know where I am now and how long it's gonna take me to get this thing done, you know, it's a real

challenge for me, just don't start laying on, like believe that instead of giving me a list of like, well, why don't you just set more alarms? Why don't you put a note in your calendar? That's what I always do. Why don't you just leave earlier? Why don't you just, you know, build that buffer time in because you know you need it. Yeah, if I remembered I needed it every day, then I would do that. Obviously, these neurotypical tools don't work for my brain. And so we can keep trying with all the good intentions to be helpful.

But if we don't choose to believe what someone is telling us about the challenges that they're having and what they actually need, because this is where your point about like, we can't just abdicate responsibility. I agree, right? Like it's my job to know what works well for me and how I can support myself, or at least to have ideas to try.

And so if I say, I have a really hard time being on time in the morning and you go, well, shouldn't you put more calendar entries? Would it help if I just sent you an email? You know, I have to know, well, the email is better than the calendar entry, but it's still not good because if I get that email, I might accidentally look at every other email and respond to those before I leave the office because I'll get distracted. Okay, well, what if I called you then? Yeah, well, you could call me and that might also work. And then as long as I hang up and I go right away,

but what if I forget to go right away? What if I just go turn to pick up my keys and see that I was gonna put this thing in the drawer and then I put it in the drawer and then I see something else and the spiral goes, right? So I said, what I think would really be helpful is I have an assistant, she's lovely. Maybe she can come into my office 10 minutes before a meeting is starting across the city, or like not the city, but the different buildings across Toronto, let's say. We should come into my office at 10 minutes too and just don't leave the office door until I actually stand up and leave the office.

Tell me don't forget you have to leave. And then just remind me by being present and this looming presence is reminding me to leave. That would probably work because I can't get distracted because I'm focused on the fact that there's someone standing in my office. Some people might say, well, that's a waste of resources and why would you do that? Well, is it a waste of resources? Can't we all use our assistants for different things? I don't really need mine to proofread my stuff because I'm obsessively going to look at everything and make sure it's pretty perfect.

But I could sure use her to help me get started on a draft prospectus by just pulling the document together and giving me something to start with so I'm not overwhelmed and then I never start it for weeks because I'm putting it off. It sounds like too big a deal. Well, no, it's already here. It's printed out maybe and I can look at it, right? Like we can all use our assistance or our tools around us in different ways. And so I think being really open, so this is really only one answer, I swear to God, But yeah, like believing what the person tells you is their challenge and then working with them to come up

with

things they can try and experiment with. Like think we need to be scientists in our own lives and our own work to figure out what works and to actually make feedback actionable. That's the second part.

You you someone, you your EQ, you gotta work on your EQ, or you've gotta work on your time management. Well, thanks, tips. Like, you think if I knew how to do that, I wouldn't have done it the first 27,000 times people told me my whole life I should work on my time management? Obviously, I know that. This is not a helpful piece of information. What can we do together to try something that might work?

Martin Hauck (55:50)
that. No, I fully like when believe people when they they say like, Hey, I need support here. This is the thing I need support with. ⁓ That's that part. I guess what's interesting and it's probably the reason right now in the system that exists just in general, which is flawed and broken and archaic and we both agree on that. It's I

I don't think employers see the onus on them to like, if like, if so and so doesn't adapt to our workplace, then we just find a new person, right? And it was like, despite their best efforts and all the skill sets that they do bring to the table at the end of the day, if this person doesn't learn how to use Google suite, as opposed to like, Microsoft Office, and it takes them X number of

it takes them longer to like figure out and they're like, I don't know that. I guess I see where you're coming from. I just don't know that I see the system changing in a way that would work that way. I guess like I agree with you.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (56:58)
Well,

yeah, I think the challenges and I experienced this in my work life, I became burnt out. It wasn't until I was off out of corporate world for a year, at least if not two, that I started to realize all the ways that I felt I was too busy and I couldn't possibly cope with these things because I was burnt out. But once you have a little bit of time to like sit back and think about it, I think.

First of all, think we need to do that. think leaders need to be doing that. They need to be building in time to actually consider what is the ramification because sure, I'll fire someone and I'll get a new person. Well, what's the stat? It costs 40 % to 200 % of someone's base salary to replace them.

I was making $200,000. It's going to cost you potentially $400,000 to replace me. Is that worth it? And it's not just in money. It's in the time of people helping train someone, onboarding them, the HR people, getting all the pieces together, creating their user accounts, all of that kind of stuff. And it's the patience of having to wait for them to actually understand and be effective. So all of those things together add up to, % of what my base salary was.

If you're making people disposable, you don't have loyalty either. So never mind that it would cost you that if you're firing someone and replacing them. You're also going to lose people who just leave because they don't feel valued. They don't feel like they're making a contribution. You're going to lose money in your organization because people aren't effective in their job. Because Sarah comes into the office every day at 9 o'clock, does nothing until 2.

Like, how is that effective and how is that useful? And then maybe she's too tired by the time she gets to 10 o'clock and she's finishing up her work because she didn't get any sleep. She got three hours of sleep last night because she had to come in at nine, but she was answering England at 4 a.m., right? So there's that piece of it. And those are just like the cost-centric kind of things. Like, okay, well, here's how you can save money is like retain people, treat them like they're valuable. But then there's also the missed opportunity, right? There's the missed opportunity of

drawing a new client base because you're putting, for example, the right person in front of the right client. Again, just going to the legal example, because I think it works really well here. Imagine you have Richard Branson coming into your big Bay Street law firm to hire you and you put in front of him your most staid, experienced partner who's very detail oriented and cares a lot about the law and wants to explain to you every detail of like why this thing that you want to do is going to be a problem and all the risks associated

associated with it. Well, Richard Branson doesn't want to hear that, right? Richard Branson wants to be talking to someone who can see the big picture, who can understand his business objective, who can see what the challenges are, but can also problem solve to make sure that we can get this done despite the fact that there are challenges, who can see how he responds or doesn't to what the risks are. of course, as a lawyer, I like to make sure that people understand the risks fully, but I also like to collaborate and find the solution. If you're putting the right person in front of Richard Branson,

he's going to hire you. If you're putting the wrong person in there like, my god, that person's a bore, they don't get it at all. I'm not even going to hire this firm. So you're drawing in or you're expanding the pool of people when you expand the types of people and personalities that you put out in the world to attract clients. ⁓

To your point earlier, you said you need all this diversity of thought and experience and culture and all of that in order to serve the communities that we live and work in. And so by being more diverse in your organization, be it through people with disabilities and different thinking styles or any other type of difference, you're going to, again, attract different segments of the population because you're going to have that diversity. You're going to create better products and services that actually suit the needs of those people because you understand what they're looking for.

And then you've got the brand piece of it as well. Because as soon as you're treating your employees amazingly, people want to work there. Now you're a track, even if you are losing people now and then because of whatever challenges that you're facing or they're not feeling valued for one reason or another, you have an endless pipeline of people who want to work at your company because they know that they're going to be treated right. They're going to have good benefits. They're going to, you know, all of that. So there's cost center and cost set.

was the opposite of that anyway, revenue focused. Yeah, and like, and the stat again, the Boston Consulting Group, I think it was did a survey and discovered that

Martin Hauck (1:01:23)
You mean generating a

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (1:01:31)
I'm just going to lump it all together, essentially 30 % greater net revenue, or greater revenue in general, when you have diverse teams, including people with disabilities on your team. So there is a financial reason to do all of this. And if we can get people, and that's what I'm trying to do, this is the profitable piece of the work I'm doing, is to help them to understand that all these benefits will flow from being supportive of the people. I had someone once say, I don't feel that I can agree that by hiring ADHD-ers, you're going to

increase your revenue. don't think those naturally flow. And I said, no, that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is, I guarantee you, you already have ADHD in your midst. 3 to 5 % that we know about of adults definitely have ADHD. We're missing people left and right. People don't disclose it because, of course, it's a stigmatized condition. Maybe you have 10%. In a law firm, you have at least 12.5%. Maybe you have 30%. And so

You want those people to thrive and support those people. And I promise you that will change the revenue structure for your organization because they will be effective in a way they aren't capable of right now.

Martin Hauck (1:02:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, create an environment where ⁓ more people can thrive versus this is the only way to succeed. This is the only path to success within the organization. So for folks listening and for ⁓ and they're they're curious and they want to learn more and they want to implement this what's what's the best way for them to get in touch with you.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (1:02:59)
Yeah, so my ⁓ LinkedIn is probably the first place to find me if you want to get a sense of who I am and what I talk about. So Sarah Enor on LinkedIn. ⁓ My website is growthcouncil.ca, which I'm always afraid to tell people because you've got to spell the council right, S-E-L. And you've also got to make sure it's a .ca because if you do the .com, you'll end up at a lovely law firm in Pittsburgh. So .ca is important. ⁓

Martin Hauck (1:03:20)
Hahaha

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (1:03:23)
And yeah, so on there you'll find things like, you know, what I offer in terms of speaking, some ideas for topics that we might cover together, a little bit of information about the ABC ADHD booster call coaching stuff that I do as well. But yeah, I'm always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn as well and just chat in the DMs if they have questions.

Martin Hauck (1:03:43)
Cool. thanks for reaching out. Thanks for making the time today. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, we'll chat again soon. Thanks.

Sarah Ennor (she/her) (1:03:51)
Thanks for having me, Martin.