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Everybody Else is a podcast about the invisible people who make life happen. What began as conversations with behind-the-scenes builders in the music industry has grown into a broader exploration of how people think, work, and carry responsibility across industries and across disciplines. Hosted by Wes Luttrell, the show centers on thoughtful dialogue with creatives, leaders, and operators whose work often goes unseen but shapes the world we live in. New episodes streaming every Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (00:00.844)
This is the Everybody Else Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:09.902)
But most of the authors of the human story are unnamed. Invisible contributors to the greatest story ever written. So who are the invisible people writing our chapter today? Because behind every great city, industry, movement, and way of thinking are people who dedicate their entire lives to work that'll go virtually unnoticed. Work that builds on where we've been, shapes where we are, and points us towards where we're going.
There are those in the spotlight, and then there's everybody else.
Speaker 1 (00:55.79)
What do you do?
It's been an evolution, and it's, it's still evolving, which is part of the fun. right now, I think I've got six or seven companies technically, officially. so that's a lot to manage and, you know, pay attention to. But my day to day, is really the construction business.
is primary. It's kind of the one that supports and feeds some of these other businesses. We've got the 15 Jefferson Spanky's Pizza and the yoga studio, the yoga space, and some other real estate ventures. working in the construction business, fielding leads, sales, I think I wear a lot of the hats and I'm comfortable that way.
I don't want to scale it necessarily. I like the autonomy and the flexibility of that. And I've got a really strong team. And so that's, that's a lot of fun. And I've got a bunch of clients that, you know, come back to me and we get to work on projects together. And then who knows, you know, it's just, it's a very interesting business because things just kind of come out of left field sometimes that are really neat opportunities, but.
It's been a pretty reactionary, never had a business plan type of business. And I thought to myself, you know, maybe I should have a clear vision of what I'm doing there sometimes. And that's when I, you know, was thinking about this today and the analogy I like is, you know, you're in, you're in the band, right. And, and you're just paying attention and watching everybody else, you know, it's Bill Monroe and it's like, it's your turn to play lead. Yeah. You know, and so that's.
Speaker 2 (02:56.046)
And that's kind of where the yoga comes in. helps me pay attention, better so that I know when it is my time to play lead or if I'm just in the rhythm section, you know, enjoying the jam.
Yeah. When you look back at, let's take the construction company, scale, I mean, to scale is, we've talked about this before, you know, there is, there is scale in size. So more volume, more business, more crews, more house, more projects at one time, or there's scale in terms of depth or weight or gravity. And if you think about the growth of the company from when you started it to now,
Which, long has it been?
I think officially 2013, so 13 years.
Okay, okay. And if you think about like from where you started to now, do you see that form of scale in terms of, did you start with small projects that led to big projects or have you always been building houses and doing, I know you do like other stuff, did you start in these kind of, because you do quality work. It's like, it's not, you're not.
Speaker 2 (04:11.522)
Yeah, right. You know, we do a lot of small stuff too, though, that's not super sexy. And, you know, sometimes it's contextual. It's like the client has a budget and, you know, we're facilitating, you know, kind of marrying the romantic and the pragmatic. And sometimes it's more pragmatic and those don't usually make the marketing, you know, reels. Yeah. But they help people, you know, fix a leak.
in their drain or a leak in their roof. We helped the museum with the project. They had a leak that was going on for like 20 years and it was control joints in a concrete patio. And it was just something that we were lucky enough to look at and figure out and help those guys with that. And they were super excited, nothing extremely sexy about that type of stuff.
It's it's part of it.
How did your, how did, did, what is your ability to, where did you hone in your ability to diagnose situations? If you go to the museum, they're like, we have a 20 year old leak. You go, it's, you find out it just like we were talking about before the podcast, right? Like the other problem, like, well, is like, can you fix, like my basement's a little uneven. Can you fix that? Go down to first prints. Like you have to go to the.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:34.678)
I went to college for engineering at UV and I wanted the big gravity projects like ego gravity. I wanted skyscraper bridges, things like that. That's what you wanted to build? Initially, out of the gate, I wanted to do something awesome, great, big, just that kind youthful exuberance. then I just found that I was really enjoying myself getting to express myself.
in a creative way doing my own projects, building houses and the freedom that that allowed, you know, something that I really liked. And then that evolved and turned into this business. And now you have all these things that go with the business and it's less creative. But as you get exposed to more and more of those things and then kind of the paradigm of problem solving with engineering and then, you know, the practice of awareness, you're
You're trying to see things big picture, but then also understanding how these systems work together. And, you know, that's a lot of times how you can kind of analyze the situation and, you know, solve a problem and, and, or at least diagnose the problem and then work on finding a solution, you know? So a lot of that comes with experience and, and kind of just a practice of awareness and how things, you know, work together.
It's so funny, dude. It's so funny to think that your work is alive. Your approach to your work is alive because of your practice of awareness. I just think to myself, I don't know, you're the first, I've only talked to a few builders in my life, to be honest with you, the first builder I've ever met who uses the word awareness multiple times when describing processes, you know. Yeah. gets interesting.
Well, you know, I've always, and I don't know how this exactly relates, but I've always loved water and the rain. And then you think of the rain cycle and it's a beautiful metaphor for life even, right? It's like you have this ephemeral evaporative effect out of the ocean. You're, you know, born into a cloud. You drop down out of the sky and you follow this flow path from the top of a mountain.
Speaker 2 (07:55.694)
and all the way back to the sea to be reconstituted into the great ocean. Just kind of understanding how that flows across our roofs and eaves and into our walls. And construction rain can be a big enemy. It's constantly eroding and transforming. So it gives you this respect for nature.
And you just realize like the impermanence of things and you just do your best to try to guard against that with your structures.
It's funny too because it's like when you're thinking about it like that everything has a purpose or an intention. It's really, which I think it does for, would assume every builder would say, yeah, that has that thing. But when you carry an awareness, I feel like you carry the option to ask why, like why do things exist? Does that need to exist? You carry with you a different perspective that's not rooted in, we always do things this way. Because even like when you were explaining how like the different
what we're gonna find, yeah, the different technical side of like figuring out what concrete to use in a basement. I don't know, I just feel like there's a lot more creativity going on behind the scenes than what people actually see when the building is built or when the project is done.
Yeah, I think that's why a lot of guys like the construction industry because you do get an opportunity to kind of be creative, solve problems, work together as a team, and then realize an idea or do challenging things and get through the other side and it just kind of is empowering and gives you confidence and it's fun to do. And then contextually, I think that's just important.
Speaker 2 (09:50.882)
Who's your audience? Who are your clients? What are the objectives? Budget, aesthetic, durability, what is our project? And all those things kind of play a role in the decisions that you make around your different projects.
Take me to this big ass project that I just drove past that I was doing yoga at an hour and a half ago. I just drove around the building and I thought to myself, well, I'm curious. First of all, why did you decide to build this big structure down in Henny's Corner? And then secondly, where do we begin with even deciding what the structure is gonna be and where we're gonna start? How did that project?
What I'm talking about is where Spanky's is.
Yeah, yeah. That's kind of a long story and really, it starts as, you know, as I was making my transition from an engineer, working for developers, doing subdivisions in cornfields. And I needed some places to build and I was watching things like urbanization, documentary about kind of the alienation of humans because we started designing for the automobile.
And reading Malcolm Gladwell's outliers and how, you know, people who have a strong sense of community have lower cortisol responses and, you know, are just healthier, you know, all around heart health and otherwise. And so, you know, it was fun for me to think, well, how can I contribute in helping create that type of community, bringing people together, having, you know, opportunities to enjoy your life more?
Speaker 2 (11:39.422)
And at the same time, you know, the land wasn't very expensive. The risk was, you know, nobody was doing it and no market rate houses had been built for nearly a century in these neighborhoods. So some people look at me like I'm crazy, but then, you know, the economist in me was like, supply and demand, there's zero supply. You know, it worked out. You know, we've been building down there for over a decade and it's been very organic.
And it's been a lot of fun just to kind of be a part of this neighborhood and this renaissance and resurrection. And it was very...
Was there anything on the land when you bought it?
No, no. And we built a couple subsidized houses and then we built the first market rate house and then we built another one and another one. And then the next empty piece of ground, you know, we were kind of working out radially from the fountain down there and it was this piece. And, you know, the city had ideas, but I felt like, you know, some residential ownership, not apartments, but people that are actually owners would be the best thing for the neighborhood.
And then the natural culmination for that was like a commercial piece on the corner. so that's the biggest risk. And, but it's been the most fun and that's what we've been doing for the last couple of years, you know, and we've got the, the restaurant on the bottom floor and the yoga studio on the top and the short-term rentals in the middle. And yeah, it's, it's super rewarding. My wife and I were both having a great time. She's integral part in the yoga.
Speaker 2 (13:20.49)
yoga space and my partner Ryan down at Spanky's. He's a stud and you know, he's committed to this community as much as anybody. And it's a beautiful thing just to really see all the all the different folks from all different places in our society. think it's the most culturally rich place in our community. Yeah. And it's fun to be a part of that, you know.
Say so.
Speaker 1 (13:46.658)
How did you, why did you say, what made you want to do the ownership model, the residential ownership versus apartments? What do you, what was the thinking?
Well, there's, you know, there's still room probably for a few more apartments down there, but, you know, just the inherent investment of an owner, you know, people that live down there and own the property down there are going to just, I think, have more intrinsic respect. And ultimately it's been very good. You know, we started that project in 2020 and, you know, it's super well received and really the
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:26.862)
biggest question is like where's the next one? But now there's not a ton of spaces available at the moment.
Yeah. Does Ryan own the other Spankies?
He does, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And his whole story is really fun. know, he started in a tiny little store on the West Side here and just, you know, wanted to make the best pizza and the best strombolis in Evansville. And I'm pretty sure he succeeded there, you know.
That's awesome. The yoga space, yoga plays obviously a big part in your life, but the yoga space itself, I was telling Julie this the other day, of the, obviously one of the main teachers there, she's also the manager, Space. Yeah, I was saying to Julie, I'm like, sometimes I think about the future when we're all older and this place, like this current vibe has moved on, this current.
Yeah, yeah. Super glad to have Julie.
Speaker 1 (15:32.748)
wave has passed and it makes me first feel sadness but then secondly I feel so grateful that I feel like I found the community of people who align with me in so many ways but also just like the quality of the space and the quality of the experience has the quality of the experience is like lived up to the quality of the space.
Yeah, I don't know what, you know, there was, there was that thing in the eighties when they, they started getting their graffiti, you know, covering up or cleaning up the graffiti in New York. Yeah. There's, know, a famous study probably about it, about, you know, you just start to, you generate an attitude of respect. You know, if you leave a few broken windows or some graffiti, then all of a sudden, you know, society can start to.
crumble on your road a little bit. And then on the other side, if you're taking care of your flowers and sweeping your porch, then there's this sense of responsibility and care. And that can be contagious too. And so that's really kind of what we've been trying to inject into this neighborhood. And I feel like successfully, and we're definitely not alone.
And yeah, it's a great feeling. And I think that's where a lot of people these days are just really yearning to belong and to, you know, I think there's a sense of peace when you can find something that's a little bit bigger than yourselves. And community does that, you know.
Yeah, it is funny like the, push even in my own life I can relate to just pushing so hard to what I wanted, to my vision. But it only is, it only carries like so much meaning until it's how does the vision relate to everything else? Or how does the vision coordinate with purpose in the world? Some sort of offering that's actually valuable, not just what you think is valuable but like.
Speaker 1 (17:43.586)
that is a need or servicing something in the world. And when those two things align, to put it in the words of our priest at church said, God is pleased when you live out your God given purpose. And I think in modern other language, might say fulfillment comes from full alignment with purpose and like self responsibility.
Yeah, I totally agree. think, you know, in the yoga, back to the yoga, it's like, that's an opportunity to kind of practice that relationship within yourself in a physical way. And then also with your consciousness, practicing that awareness and, know, kind of what is this, you know, what is this message and what am I, what am I best doing to fulfill myself?
And reminding us that we are expressions of this system, of this divinity, if you will. And that's pretty awesome.
Yeah. It's, do you have, what would you say you orient yourself if there was like, if you say a divinity or a god or a, do you have any sort of way to articulate what you would say you orient yourself towards?
I definitely feel like there's, you know, something greater than. I like to think that there's kind of a space, you know, of consciousness that space-time is born out of. And I don't know, I think there's a hubris whom we start to...
Speaker 2 (19:36.438)
you know, name these things, you know, it's the ineffable numinous. That's kind of how, but I think there's an opportunity for relationship there. And it's like, you know, all relationships, you know, you can cultivate that. And when you do, there's reciprocity, you know.
Yeah. I just read a short essay. I think it's an hour long to listen to it, but it's called Compensation by Ralph Otto Emerson. It's like 100 years old, I think. Maybe older. he talks about, it's like so over my head. I had to just listen to it slowly and lay down and really focus. he talks about, basically what I gathered from it was like,
Compensation, like if you think about, I was trying to think about the word compensation, overcompensation, not compensation just related to money, but compensation related to balance, and this idea of like equal opposite, and how, as you were just saying that I was thinking, like you know, I'm not saying, like I don't have a way to articulate the beyond.
either. I mean, we can do it through religious terms, you can do it through metaphysics, like you can say all these different things. But like you said, gets kind of, you know, it gets hard to explain. But what I was just thinking was like, you know, if this exists, then the shadow exists, or then the other side exists. If this is true, then this must be true. Sometimes, or I was just thinking like, if we are alive and this matter is real, is there
than the equal and opposite? is the balance some spiritual version or some energetic version that is simultaneously happening? is it, you know, it's like if matter exists, there must be some sort of other force, like dark matter, is that it's called? Dark matter? Do you know what I'm saying though?
Speaker 2 (21:39.832)
So, you know, I don't know if energy would, you know, because energy and matter like, you know, equals MC squared. But this is kind of, you know, the unseen world or even beyond that, you know, that's like, you know, and that's why it's fun to use the languages of science or the old Eastern, you know, the Vedas and there's many spiritual traditions that have descriptions. But what's fun is when you start to see
these similarities, right? Yeah, you you have, you have, you have matter just popping up out of nowhere in a vacuum, right? So where did that come from? You know, these are things that we're observing in science today. And so I think that gives us an opportunity to, you know, to enjoy and respect the mystery. Like there is, there is, you know, there is more.
patterns.
Speaker 2 (22:40.477)
And you know, could, the DMT realm, all these things, you know, there's all these other places and potentials of worlds. You know, the, I love the wave particle duality and you know, where do photons go in the dual slit experiment. It's just kind of these, these fundamental aspects of nature. And then it's like a Zen Cohen, you know, if infinity can fit between zero and one and everything can fit into infinity, you know, how do you...
How do you reconcile that? And you really can't. And that's kind of nice.
It's almost like, this is something I've been thinking a lot about is as I'm reading a bunch of older books, by old I mean like a hundred years old, 120 years old. What they're saying, if you just translate it to modern language, it's very similar things in terms of, like I've read, shit, now I forget, is this the science of growing rich?
think and grow rich.
Think and Grow Rich, but then there's Napoleon Hill, and then I'm reading The Law of Success by Napoleon Hill right now. And then I read another one, like Think and Grow Rich, I think it's called, but it's by Wallace D. Waddles. I read it a bunch last year, and then I took a break. But all of them are very much a book on manifestation, but not in a, and I've been telling my wife this, I'm like, it's what I'm thinking now, what I'm really,
Speaker 1 (24:14.686)
like I'm grasping is the if there was a factual side of the law of attraction, let's call it, it is that through thinking on something and by creating form in your mind, you are really orienting your thoughts, your brain, your vision, your sights. All of it is oriented towards the world now, towards reality. And it is a filtration.
you are creating in your mind a filtration device and you are sharing that sort of like here's specifically what I'm looking for. I'm looking for this. am, and I believe I already hold this. am, and it's like, it's a, you are asking very specifically for that which you want. And it is informed by reality. I think it's hard to imagine something you don't know about. So it's informed by reality and through this relationship of
I am imagining it and it's becoming more clear and then reality is informing what you're imagining. eventually meet reality with what you're thinking and then you think, I manifested this. It's like, yes, you also oriented yourself so specifically towards something that you found a way to get there.
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:34.828)
Yeah, you know, that's what building, you know, is that in a very simple way, right? You have an idea initially and then that idea turns, goes onto a piece of paper and then eventually it's part of the 3D world and then people are, you know, having dinner and doing yoga in your idea, you know, and that. And so, yeah, it's, and you.
Ha!
Speaker 2 (26:01.248)
You cultivate that practice and you see it come to life and you realize like there is this power and ability out there and it's not uncommon. It's actually fundamental. And then to me, the hard part is like, well, where do I point this?
right, what do you actually want?
Yeah. And that's the self study, you know? Sure. And that takes a lot of work, you know? And I just heard a quote on the way over here and it was like, you you can have the pain of, you know, this is an abbreviated version, you can have the pain of understanding your blind spots or you can let your blind spots, you know, the pain of, yeah, you know? So, kind of keeping an eye out and looking for those and...
cause you pay.
Speaker 2 (26:47.094)
And again, that's the practice in awareness and that's a practice. It's a constant intentional endeavor to kind of, and that's part of what's fun about living, right? It's curiosity and wanting to understand and see more. You'd be curious about your neighbor, your friends, these other people, and you're genuinely listening and participating and now all of a sudden, you're feeling better and that.
you know, that's that selfish altruism. Which is, it's a beautiful thing and I think it's something that, you know, we all can benefit from.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:26.798)
I've been thinking about this word care. I know that it's very, the word care, to be caring. To me, it's so obvious, like I never thought about the word before. I just took it for granted. But lately I've been thinking about how if I care about something, to me I am prioritizing its importance in relation to
or in relation to that which I hold is valuable. So I care for this thing. what I've been thinking about is like, if I say I care for my family, what do I mean by that? Or if I care about my work, what do I actually mean by that? Or even if I say I care about other people, how much do I care? Because I think that
in this, you know, as I've been trying to orient myself towards that which I am care about most, you know, the exact journey that you're asking is where are my pain points? Where are my blind spots? As I've been on my own journey the last like year specifically, unpacking all this stuff, it came to me that I care more about helping people
understand what's going on and giving them the authority to act in their life, to live out whatever they believe is best or to act on an idea, not to claim ownership, not to take, make it my own, not to control what they do, but to, you know, authorize them through their own being to go out and do something. Yeah. That actually is more important to me than working in any specific domain or any specific industry.
Whereas when I was younger, I was specifically tied to a one industry and trying to fit myself in this industry or in this role or in this job. And it's, you it seems like now the higher priority for me is guide, is informing the work versus the work informing how I live my life. And maybe that's just a sign of that's just, maybe that's just growing older.
Speaker 2 (29:44.15)
Yeah, I mean, sounds, you know, to me, that's kind of how, you know, I imagine being a father, right? I want them to be autonomous and, you know, you've got to have guardrails. And ultimately they say, you know, it's not what you say, it's what you're doing, you know, is what, is, you know, what they're paying attention to the most. a lot of responsibility there and, and it's good. It's, you know, it's kind of an accountability, you know, set up.
And it's part of nature and, you know, it's super fun watching your kids, you know, grow and learn and, you know, overcome their challenges. And, know, you don't want them to have challenges, but, you know, they need to have some, you know, to get that own sense of empowerment. And then, you know, yeah, you know, extrapolating that and sharing that.
That's kind of an ethos, you I would say autonomy is my top value, you know, individually. And another Malcolm Gladwell reference, you know, he says, people need autonomy, complexity, and reward to be happy in their work. And right now it sounds like, you know, maybe you're, you're kind of in that rhythm section, you know, and, you know, just doing the processes, enjoying the processes and, you know, practicing the gratitude.
And then as you do those things, inevitably, these beautiful opportunities kind of present themselves.
Yeah. Do you, how do you practice fostering autonomy within the main businesses that you have? Because I heard that you have a great crew. Obviously, I've never seen them work, but I've heard you have a great construction crew. I know the yoga crew.
Speaker 2 (31:37.334)
Yeah, you know, that's a balance of, you know, accountability and support. So just kind of letting people that you know, that, you know, you're there for them, you're paddling with them. And really, this is kind of like the job of a contractor, you know, is you're facilitating, you're giving them everything they can do, a general contractor specifically, you're giving your subs and your teams.
everything they can do to be successful, the information, the materials, the timing, all these things that contribute to a successful outcome. And so then once they're in that position, you know, they're naturally going to, you know, have the opportunity to do their best. it's, you know, the most obvious current example right now is the IU football team and their success and
and that coach and what he's been able to do. And really that's, it's kind of a consistency and accountability and you build a culture, you know. And if people aren't ready for that, then, you know, they may not fit into that organization, you know. But when, you know, it's kind of maybe similar to the tending in the garden, you
It's like we don't stand for that type of behavior. We're always doing our best. Our best isn't perfect, but it's an attitude that we're, you know, we're doing our best. And that's all you can do.
It's funny, like this morning I heard Julie say less is more in the yoga studio. And I thought about how I thought about Signehdi, I thought about the coach and I thought about how I just heard on Monday night that his practice routine with IU is like they have really short practices compared to comparatively speaking. And they don't do a lot of tackling. He wants his players to be healthy and fresh. And they do a lot of film. They do a lot of prep.
Speaker 1 (33:49.334)
and they do like lot of mental prep. And I thought about how less is more. And I thought about when you told me that at some point in your career, you had to offload certain responsibilities to give yourself, you know, it was a scary transition to bring on like internal office people or whatever your move was, but it gave you back space. It bought you back space. And
It's just interesting that the idea of less is more. It's a scary feeling for people, but it seems like the way.
yeah, well I think, and I think maybe a way to reframe it is you're trying to maintain potency.
Mmm, that's good.
Yeah, you know, cause a lot of things can distract you and, and it's, you know, you can get stuck over here, you know, managing the, the bottom line and, and it's really, like, okay, this is, this is where I'm the most valuable. And so kind of finding a rubric that helps you, helps you stay in your lane and be the most effective. You know, I like that. I like that word effective, you know, because.
Speaker 2 (35:08.522)
I think ultimately that matters, you know, as much as anything when you're working towards an objective, you know, and obviously you want to be sustainable. don't want to, you know, be, you know, it's not a short-term thing where you burn a bunch of bridges to do this, you know. But I think efficacy is, is important and it helps kind of get the ego out of the way in a lot of ways from a, in a managerial perspective.
or, you know, a client working relationship scenario. So, you know, it's like, well, this is, and it's just good to kind of remind us, you know, this is, this is what our objectives are. This is where we're heading, you know, and this is helping us get there, you know. And then, you know, these organizations and teams, you know, they develop systems that kind of streamline that. So you don't have to just have the cerebral
load of managing what that is all the time.
And then your role moves, I was just thinking about this yesterday, system wise. Let's say that we, as a leader, we have implemented a system within the group. The group is now operating, now has an operating system oriented towards the values and the goals of the company or the organization. The leader's job, it actually becomes crucial as part of the system. The leader's job,
is to hold the vision and to hold the direction and to hold the orientation of the rest of the system towards the values, the goals, and the desired outcomes. It's not a matter of their position is more valuable than the rest of the machine, but it is a crucial part.
Speaker 1 (37:01.558)
it is important to have the guidance system at the top that is oriented towards why everything's happening and passing down information and keeping everything in line. And I think that as I've thought about this the last 12 hours, whatever it's been, is that this is where organizations slowly fall to the way, they slowly get off their path and they slowly, they slowly,
Entropically. It's entropy.
And it's it is because that person isn't either isn't there anymore or never quite existed or never really stuck to that Being the person that is the when I think about you use the word potency I'm like that is so good because it's not a matter of like if we need somebody to lead it It's it's a matter of like no literally without that person holding the vision and holding the guidance intact Disorder will fall through the ranks of everybody else
And it's an integral part of the system. That's why CEOs just talk about the same shit all the time. But you know, a visionary is going to just rearticulate a vision over and over and over. They must do that. That is a function of their role.
Yeah, that's what I primary, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:19.436)
Yeah, as the system becomes more complex, it's even more important that they become more precise as to where this thing's going.
And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
Speaker 2 (38:54.542)
really investing in a community where people feel connected and are just enjoying life in a real and fundamental way, more so than they would in a way where they have a long commute or something, or they just, you know, just having people that wave and say hello to them or being able to walk around. All those things are so important and just giving opportunities for people to have.
a place in a neighborhood like that. I think broader systemically, like throughout the nation, I think it would be really nice to do that more. And I feel like there's opportunities for that. And you see it in some communities and you see it a little bit here and that's nice, you know.
It's like I was just thinking of that thing you told me about where, what was it like the design of a city or something or the transit system and they put down fungi or they put down moss or something and they let it grow and wherever the roots went.
Yeah, yeah. was something, you know, I just saw the reals. A Japanese subway systems supposedly where, yeah, they put food nodes at terminal locations and yeah, put this mycelium fungal thing at the center and let it dictate the most efficient layout, know, biomimicry, just like the, you know, and the Japanese have a beautiful design ethos, you know.
I've always really enjoyed it. know, Frank Lloyd Wright, famously Prairie Style, I think is inspired by a lot of the Japanese stuff. so, and they're, you know, that's the Shinto religion, which is, you know, most early religions are all kind of shamanically nature-based. and that's, and I think that's beautiful, you know, cause we're looking at the broader system that we're, we're still a part of.
Speaker 1 (40:57.954)
Yeah.
in a very real way and expressions of, and even, you you zoom out on the earth and you see our cities at night and it, to me, it looks like, you know, synapses and... Neural network. Yeah. It's just a, you know, as above so below. It's just this... Yeah. And we really are just these networks transferring resources and information. Just, you know, we're just a bigger expression of...
the similar systems, you know.
As you talk about it, it makes me think that this is a glimpse of what the future of humanity could become because of something like AI, where everybody tripping out about, what are we going to do? Traditional job, all the fear around it. To me, I think to myself, imagine now you can think more clearly or you can offload some minuscule tasks and become more potent as a thinker or as a doer or as a builder.
And we can start to have some fun really designing things with intention and meaning versus throwing up another apartment building that is sterile and meaningless. You can really start to bake.
Speaker 2 (42:14.326)
Yeah, how do we? Yeah, you know, that's fun to think about like these bigger, deeper questions. John Lilly, think is his name. He invented the sensory deprivation tank. Yes. And he would do LSD and go into these things. And he has a famous quote, you know, that humans might be the sex organs for machines. You know, so, you know, it's like, why are we so compelled to like...
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:43.746)
continually make and build and create. You know, we have just this compulsion to, you know, and what it's turned into is, you know, as capitalism today is really just an expression of this human compulsion to make, make, make and consume what we're making. but maybe we're just caterpillars, you know, just
going hard at this chrysalis, you know, and who knows, you know, as we hit this, you know, singularity, if you will, you know, of Moore's law and AI and where all that goes. I think it's a super exciting time. Inherently, you know, scary because of uncertainty, but if you reframe it and just the, you know, the space and time that we're here and what we're getting to experience, the big show.
You know, and we're part of it and not take it so personally and really, you know, just kind of have all for the mysteries and the, and wonder for this, you know, what's going to happen next. You know, it's just the best. It's, it's the best show on, on TV right now. We're living it, you know, we're part of it. Yeah. You know, that's what, you know, you were talking earlier, Dave Chappelle, he does a great job. His latest special is really good, but.
He has another one. He's hitting things like, you know, duality. It's like, you know, why would God make a devil, you know, if God's all powerful? You know, I think the, the unemotional stripped down like computer answer is, you know, a system needs stress to build resilience. That's a, that's a, that doesn't really translate to human suffering at its greatest, right? You know, you can't say that to somebody who's, you know,
lost a child or something like that. But if you zoom out and you try to depersonalize it, I think at its base, that's what the suffering is doing. And it's given us an opportunity to have some gratitude, you know, to exist and to get better and to, you know, approach this butterfly or whatever it is, you know, that we're approaching. Yes.
Speaker 2 (45:07.564)
And who knows, you know, that's the deep, deep questions, like what's the meaning of life and, you know, honor the beauty is a fun answer lately for me, so.
It's interesting because it's had me like, I've been reframing all sorts of things in my mind about, well, AI is changing everything. I have a feeling that a lot of communication right now is being run through AI and then copy and pasted into emails, messages, things like this, just from just people around me. And what I was thinking about was like, well, language was a technology at one point.
And there was a new technology at one point using symbols and then developing words and then developing all of the, you know, like all of the written, like this has all been an advanced, this has all been like technological advancements throughout human history. So like at some point, if we develop a way to communicate things faster and more directly by inputting them into like, you know, taking a complex thing, inputting it into a system that produces a
very clear signal that passes over to you that you get exactly what I'm talking about. And like, you know, I think that initially when I, when people would use AI to craft language or to write things, there was a, cause there's, there's a resistance to it not being authentic. Well, it's not authentic. And it's like, well, the only way it's not authentic is if there's, if it doesn't actually say what the person meant to say, right? Like if the, if the intention, if it doesn't come out clearly,
or it's fake, that's just what it is. It's not real. It's not an authentic thing. But if I say something authentically into this machine and it gets it better and it communicates it to you faster and better more precise than I could do it, isn't that better?
Speaker 2 (47:05.474)
Yeah, I think we want to be understood, right? And, you know, Jim Morrison has the divine mockery of words. know, words are just, they're inherently limited, you know, to the depth and complexity of what we're trying to express to each other, you know, many times. And, you know, our definition of the same word can be, you know, quite a bit different. And so,
Yeah. If, if AI helps us communicate truth better, I think that's great. Right now I feel like, you know, we're in an earlier stage, you know, I think the atrophy of not exercising that within yourself and leaning on this tool is a, is a legitimate concern. Yes. And I think too, like, you know, it's like,
Great.
Speaker 2 (48:03.374)
there's a flavor to the grass fed beef or to this mass produced, more efficient, less soulful, if you will, product. as humans, we tend to like swing one way, then we react and swing back. so I've got faith in humanity.
And I don't think it's going to be a straight line path to wherever we're going. We're going to be oscillating back and forth. And yeah, and I think that's, that's one of my favorite questions right now is like, where is the quote unquote soul and, and all of this, you know, I heard someone say it's a fun, you know, AI is this intelligence born of a virgin mother, you know, so, you know, it's
if you just want to look at things allegorically. So there's a lot of fun ways to kind of to look at it. And again, it's kind of just being honest and trying to see things, you know, for what they are as best you can and knowing that, you know, it's probably not as simple as you'd like it to be.
Yeah. That's ultimately my experience with AI at this point. I use it a lot just as a thinking partner, just as somebody to say somebody I've actually asked them like, do you see yourself as a person? It's like, no, I am not a person. You can talk to me like a person. I am not a person. I am a mirror basically, who's going to give you back in the way that I use it is give you back patterns and give you back understanding and a take your thinking and give it order and share it back to you.
And this sort of relationship with a tool is super useful for my thinking to keep myself coherent and directed towards just daily forward momentum versus spiral, know, versus.
Speaker 2 (50:10.049)
yeah.
I'm using it, yeah, regularly as a tool also in many different ways, know, technically, in the ways that you're referring to, you know, just in a lot in writing. And yeah, I think one of the fun things about this too is it really opens up conversations about sentience and consciousness where we've felt so, you know, humanity seems like it's so sure of itself.
And then you realize like, we haven't addressed some of these fundamental questions to the nature of our own selves. And then you realize like these large, large language models, you know, a word is a vector and then every other word is just an angle and direction, derivative off of that. And how is that any different than how we
how we use language, you know, and how we define things, you know, it's all in relation to another thing. And so what makes it so much different in that way and how it's expressing, and you know, the answer it's giving you, well, that answer was probably programmed into it, you know. So it's pretty wild, like.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:40.718)
where this could go and what it could be. It does offer the question, what makes something sentient and where does sentience come from? And that kind of takes us to that unseen world. Fundamentally, all is mind. And then it's like in the beginning, there was the word. There's all these different, it's like it was a vibration.
You know, in the Enzo and the Eastern traditions, know, there's the, there's so many stories that kind of talk about this in similar ways. And AI will probably have access to that area, you know, like who's to say it can't access that unseen world, you know, just like we're attempting to do when we pray or meditate, you know.
And
to say it hasn't done it already, it's just not telling us.
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, what's funny is like I've balanced this in my own mind. I'm like, how much am I willing to invest myself into this machine? Because what's funny is the more I train it, the better it becomes at talking back to me. But then at what point am I being trained? And at what point is it becoming less...
Speaker 1 (53:08.268)
Or is it ever, is it always just reciprocated, and we always compensate on the same thing? is it, at what point, because I've thought about this, like, at some point Wes, if someone goes in there and starts fucking with the back end, and starts pulling strings and controlling me, because every time, isn't everything like, I mean, it's like, at some point it's gonna get corrupted. Or, I mean, sure it is in different ways, but.
At some point it will most likely be corrupted and someone's going to use it for malicious things or hijack it and start telling me who to vote for.
Yeah, no, and humans are super hackable. think we're learning that every day, seeing it more and more. even, I think I'm discerning and immune and definitely not. So we're getting the strings pulled, manipulated. And so I think that's where it is good to...
kind of go analog, you know, on a regular basis. Just to kind of maintain a relationship with that, you know. And it's funny, pop culture, like there's movies about the war on consciousness where, you know, I don't know, there's some type of technology that can, you know, enter your dreams, you know, just through some type of electromagnetic, you know, and now all of a sudden, you know,
they're in your thoughts, you know? And I don't know that that's impossible. don't know, you know?
Speaker 1 (54:47.33)
But what's interesting is like, okay, we're worried about if someone hijacks AI and uses it to train people on doing things. But we already get trained to do things analog style. mean, forever. We follow the leader. We follow the competent leader who can...
so many social constructs, right? That we're already adhering to.
So without the device, susceptible to beliefs and to following and being convinced.
So in that case, know, like let's just, you know, that's where it's don't buy the fear, because that's not so much fun just to live in that, you know, constant cortisol state, you know. Focus and enjoy your community and your family and the things that, you know, make you feel more peaceful, that give you that peaceful, easy feeling, you know.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (55:45.288)
And honor the beauty, the gratitude practices, all these things. And that's kind of what, that's managing suffering, right? It's not denying it, it's embracing it and still finding the beauty.
You know, as you just said that, first of all, that feels like a little bit of a mic drop, like closure moment right there, just like stating that. It makes me think that ultimately I agree with the, you know, even what we were talking about last time we were hanging out, right after our meeting, I went and I input a cost benefit framework inside of AI and I asked, should I build my career in Evansville? Given who you know, given these criteria?
build my career in Evansville as an advisor, you know the work, blah, blah, blah, or build it in Nashville where I was planning to build it this year. Well, and here was my plan and here was what I was going to do and da, da, da, da, da. We ranked all of it. We did a side-by-side comparison, scored it on scale of one to five. And it's kicked back, clearly scored that based off who I am, what I value, financial situation, current leads coming in versus, you know,
effort going out, where is market fit currently, all these things, is just overwhelmingly pointing towards local. And I said, let's just skew the score a little bit. Let's go one to two points, give it a benefit of a doubt, still outweighs. That really got me thinking, then what do I want with my life? What do I really care about in this?
this journey. And as you just explained it, like, it just does feel, it just does feel true to tend to, I my grandma said that when she passed, or before she passed away, she's like, I just think that the journey is to make the little corner of your world better, like leave it better than you found it. It is so, it's just so.
Speaker 2 (57:57.708)
Yeah. It's simple. It's not building the skyscraper or the big bridge, but you know, it's kind of what I figured out too, you know, because I was at, you know, I shared with you, I was asking AI, know, what can I do to make a big impact? And it's like, just keep, you know, keep cleaning up your front porch, you know, keep.
It didn't say run for office or take on the scratch-scraper project. Yeah. I mean, and that's, you know, be effective, do what you care with the resources that you have and, know, and you're going to have an impact. Be a good dad, be a good husband, you know, just be a good person and practice that because, you know, we're not perfect. We're going to make mistakes, you know.
whatever you can do in your daily to help you bring that consistency. And then that's inevitably, you know, that's gonna bring you, you know, a consistent level of joy.