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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
SHAE HILL:
Welcome to another episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so glad you're tuning in to this special summer bonus episode. You're about to hear an exclusive conversation from Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel that they recorded live and in person at She Speaks Conference 2025.
SHAE:
If you didn't know, She Speaks is an annual conference by Proverbs 31 Ministries that equips women to use their story and what they've been through for the good of others and for the glory of God. This year's conference is coming up so soon, and it's taking place on July 17th and 18th, and you can enjoy it all from the comfort of your own home by signing up for the free live stream experience. Check out the link in our show notes to sign up today.
SHAE:
As you reset your rhythms and settle into these warmer months, I wanna tell you about a special offer from our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors that might be just the right thing you're looking for this summer. Our friends at AACC and Light University created a trauma-informed coaching certification, which is a biblically grounded training that teaches you how to recognize trauma, respond with care, and walk with someone toward healing.
SHAE:
This program will help you become a trusted person for someone else who needs help working through what they're walking through. And right now they're offering limited scholarships to you, our Therapy and Theology listeners, for just $99 when this program normally costs $1,600. So it's the perfect time to get started.
SHAE:
You can find the link in our show notes to apply today. After listening to today's episode, it would mean the most to us if you would share how this conversation helped you specifically. Leave us a review on Apple Podcast or a comment on Spotify or YouTube and tell us all about it. Now let's hear from Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel.
LYSA TERKEURST:
Okay. Well, we love doing Therapy and Theology. Um, they have their own reasons for loving it. I can tell you why I love it so much, is because it makes me feel like I get free therapy. I don't have to pay for these sessions. So, um, often wh- we say Joel brings the theology, Jim brings the therapy, and I bring the problems.
LYSA:
So- ... it's, um, it's really such a delight, and I love this combination. And, um, hopefully what I bring is experiential wisdom, and I like the combination of the three of us together, and it just blesses me deeply to know that I didn't keep it all to myself. You know, when I was, when I was going through so many days where I was like, "I don't even know if I'm gonna make it," um, these two guys were such an important part of my healing, both of them.
LYSA:
And I realize that it's not realistic for everyone to have a theologian working for them full time and, um, and to have Jim Cress in their backyard. So, um, it, it just... It was a promise that I made to the Lord, like, when I get through this, I wanna make sure to give other people access to the wisdom that these two men have woven into my life.
LYSA:
And so that's really where the idea and the passion for Therapy and Theology came from. So with that, you ready to jump right in?
DR. JOEL MUDDAMALLE:
Let's do it.
JIM CRESS:
Ready to roll.
LYSA:
Okay. However you are called to help other people, you are in ministry. It can mean that we lead a small group or a Bible study at our church, but it can also mean that you're sharing biblical wisdom, like on social media or through a podcast you host, or it can mean that you're just there for your friends and family and neighbors, helping them with whatever it is that they need.
LYSA:
All of those are legitimate forms of ministry. In today's podcast, we wanna explore some pitfalls that we can easily find ourselves in when we're trying to help others, and these pitfalls are pretty crucial that we become aware of them. The first step we must take when wanting to help others is self-awareness.
LYSA:
Are we aware of when helping crosses a line into enabling or trying to save them or becoming codependent with those who we wanna help? Are we aware when too much is in fact too much? And are we aware of some of the hidden motivations inside of our own heart where ministry stops being about helping others and becomes all about building our platforms?
LYSA:
So these pitfalls in ministry, they can happen, and they can be taken to extremes, making it too much about others or making it too much about ourself. So today, I wanna learn what these pitfalls are so that those of us in ministry, and that should be all of us, stay healthy and pure-hearted. So you guys, are you ready to tackle some pitfalls?
JOEL:
Yeah. Let's do it. I'm excited.
JIM:
Grateful.
LYSA:
Okay. One of the extremes that I think we can swing to, and I feel like on this one I sometimes need to raise my hand, is the unnecessary pressure on ourselves to not just help someone, but to save someone. And I can find myself in this. I get- Is it okay that we have confession here on Therapy and Theology?
JIM:
We've done it before, haven't we?
JOEL:
I know.
LYSA:
I know. So, well, a lot of times it's like forced confession, where I kinda force you guys to confess something.
JOEL:
No, one of the la- one of the last episodes, Lysa tricked all of us- ... me and Jim specifically, and she got us into a therapy session with her. And so I'm really excited, Lysa, for you to go first.
JIM:
And we failed. You and I failed.
LYSA:
No, you passed. You passed. It's all good. Okay, so how do I know that I'm not just trying to help someone, but I'm trying to save them? And this can feel really challenging sometimes because our compassion can just run ahead of what's realistic or even what the Lord is calling us to do.
LYSA:
So sometimes I don't wanna just give people some wisdom for their issues, but I wanna be the one who saves them from their issues. So let me give you some practical examples. A lot of times I'll be at a conference and somebody will come up and, you know, they'll tell me, "Man, I, I would really love it if I could find a job that, you know, is ministry, that works all day, you know, with other people, ministry-minded people. I really need a job. Um, it's pretty crucial that I live in Charlotte, North Carolina."
LYSA:
And so of course that's the perfect setup for someone like me to go, "Oh, absolutely," like, "I'm sure we would love to hire you." But the reality then, our HR department, uh, would not be very happy with me. So instead what I could do is give them some advice on their resume, but I don't need to step in and try to be the solution to their problem.
LYSA:
And a lot of times God is not calling me to do that. This person has a savior, but it's not me. And when I try to step in and I try to do too much, I may be the very thing blocking them from experiencing consequences that the Lord has established so that their heart can be drawn to Him and not to me. And I think this is a really important principle for me to remember.
JOEL:
Yeah, I really love that, Lys. And I think that, uh, one of the things that you're kind of highlighting, um, is this concept of pride versus humility. And it's kinda like, okay, what is that thing that is inside of us that so longs to want to m- move from helping somebody to actually being their savior, like rescuing them? Um, and it's what I can get out of that situation. And so-
LYSA:
Oh, no, here we go. We're about to dive in deep. Just split me wide open. 'Cause I'm just gonna say right now, like, it doesn't feel like pride.
JOEL:
Well, so here's the next line. So pride is a seductive sin, but humility is God's grace to overcome it.
LYSA:
Okay, you might need to say that again.
JOEL:
Yeah.
LYSA:
‘Cause I'm over here feeling split wide open. Go ahead, Joel.
JIM:
Do you intend to go for the jugular right away- ... or are you just gonna wait for that later?
JOEL:
I have to go first before you go for it, otherwise I'm gonna lose all steam, Jim Bo.
LYSA:
No, pri- No, but I th- I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you're sharing.
JIM:
No doubt.
LYSA:
And because pride doesn't always mean that we're, like, puffed up with our chest out or whatever.
JIM:
No doubt.
JOEL:
No.
LYSA:
It can also sometimes mean, like, I, I want that good feeling of feeling like I have been the one to be someone else's solution, and there is a payoff for that, an emotional payoff.
JOEL:
And, and this is the seductive part of what pride is, right? Uh, it's that it leverages, and, and really it's the enemy, it's the presence of sin in our world, and its own- our own sinful inclinations that suggest that we can experience something that should start off in a good place, but it can end up in an idolatrous place.
JOEL:
And so here we are, and we're like, "Man, this, this is, like, good motivation." And in the good motivation part of it, we're actually being seduced into thinking that we're the point of the story, we are the hero, we're the one who rescues, and we lose sight of the fact that, in fact, you and I have been the ones who have been rescued. Like, we-
LYSA:
Yep
JOEL:
owe really everything that we have to Jesus and what He's done for us. And so the power of humility really is the regaining of self-awareness, so we can actually see rightly. And it, I think, protects us, so we can step in to help within our means and within our limits, but then it also prevents us from overstepping into places that are actually not places the Lord has even called us to.
LYSA:
Joel, are there some signs of pride? Because sometimes this kind of pride, like I said before, it's, it's not so obvious, you know?
JOEL:
Yeah.
LYSA:
It can, it can almost feel like humility because it's like, "No, I, I want to sacrifice myself to help this other person."
JOEL:
Yep.
LYSA:
And so I guess what you're saying, though, is what is the ultimate motivation, and also we have to pay attention to our limitations.
JOEL:
Yeah, so in, uh, my book, The Hidden Peace, I was, I remember I was, like, working through the section on the fruit of the spirit and talked about being split wide open. This was where I was split wide open by the Holy Spirit. And you've got the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, thankfulness, and this kind of pride presents itself as the fruit of the spirit externally, but the aim of the fruit of the spirit is for the glorification of God and the edification of God's people.
JOEL:
But this kind of expression is actually aimed inward, and so it's actually about my glorification, and it's actually about my edification. And so I think one of those kind of subtle ways that we can have a self-analysis, and I'm curious, Jim, what you think from a therapeutic standpoint, is to identify, wait a minute, um, here are some good things, but the place where these good things are aimed is of vital importance.
JOEL:
Is it because I really care about the other person, and I want them to be as close to Jesus as possible? Or actually is it about elevating myself and my own self-image and my own perspective? Um, and that's one of the ways that you can start to identify that.
JIM:
Self-awareness, duly noted here, um, the key I've found, and I know some research would back it up, that in therapy or coaching or you at Panera having coffee cup counseling, most people are never coming to a counselor. They're coming to you, and you're doing counseling way more than you know, right?
JIM:
So here's the deal around that is you want to pay attention in your own self-awareness. Don't overanalyze it, but you want to pay attention to... Trust me, buddy. Can I have your hand? So if I come to Joel, and we just finished six days at Haven Place, and I want to ask this master theologian and dear friend of mine a question, there will be a pull on him. You'll feel it.
JIM:
So sometimes the pull is- I need you to be an expert. And that means y'all too in the audience and those listening as well. I need you to have the answer. It's not just in the therapy hour. So with that is to pay attention. What's the pull on me? All of you already have, because of your life story, you have a level of expertise, but you don't have to be an expert.
JIM:
I don't wanna be an expert, right? I don't even know what a pert is, let alone to be an expert. I don't know what that is, right? So I pay attention to the pull on me, and when Lysa's in various places speaking, wherever it may be, and people wanna ask sometimes very detailed questions. So with that is, I also think you've heard us say it, if it's hysterical, it's historical. Contemplate gently, where might I be in my life story?
JIM:
Anybody grow up in this room, I can see the room, and you listeners or viewers, wherever you may be, anybody here ever struggle with being a people pleaser as a child? Maybe you were. And see, so that's that energy that we be- need to be very compassionate, self-compassionate, that I grew up, and the wiring me was, I will rescue people.
JIM:
And guess what? The only rescuer we all know in the room is Jesus. And there are times, said tenderly, I've said to people, the Lord Jesus Christ looks at us, remember he looked on the masses with compassion, and he says, "My daughter-" Or my son, would you please step aside and let me have your husband? Oh, this is tough.
JIM:
Let me have your child. Let me have your friend. You mean well, but you need to stop rescuing. And when you're rescuing a person, the number one person you're trully- really trying to rescue is yourself. Be very kind to yourself. Don't be mean or harsh to yourself and say, "I need to step aside," or say, "I need to think about that."
JIM:
Would you please buy yourself some time? That's a profound question. "Huh, I'm gonna need to think about that, and I will get back to you." Just be careful to notice the pull on you that they're wanting me to solve their problem, and that's not your job.
LYSA:
I love that you mentioned to go back into our story and really examine, you know, what are some of those things that we need to tend well to. I don't know if you would call them unhealed places or- Yeah ... you know, whatever it is. But, you know, I think where this desire comes from for me, and, and we've talked about it a lot in my therapy for... I've been with you in therapy for nine years.
JIM:
Probably.
LYSA:
Yeah. Since 2016. Right. Um, but I remember the first time you said codependency, which is kind of what we're dancing on the edges of here, and I remember thinking, "Codependency? Like, no, I'm a very independent person. That is, is... I'm definitely not struggling with codependency," you know? And then Jim did this thing of, uh, he said, "Okay, do you ever find yourself caught in this kind of loop? I need them to be okay so I can feel okay, so how can I make them okay? Because if they're not okay, then I'm not gonna feel okay, okay?" You know?
LYSA:
And he explained to me, basically, it's just compassion taken too far. Yeah. And I do think that i- as I go back into my story and I think, "Okay, where, where did this desire to not just help but sort of rescue come from?" And I remember when my biological dad left our family- He not only left us physically, but he left us financially, he left us emotionally. Like, he really, really left us.
LYSA:
And so then my mom was trying to raise two girls, and she was working two, sometimes three jobs, and I was the oldest of the two kids. And I remember when I was about 10, 11 years old, one day with tears streaming down her face, my mom looked at me, we were sitting at the kitchen table, and she had a basket, and she pushed the basket over to me, and it had the checkbook and a whole bunch of bills in it.
LYSA:
And my mom was just so overwhelmed at the reality of our situation. She said, "I, I'm just gonna need you to figure this out." And I, I have so much compassion on my mom when I tell this story. I... You know, my mom and I are only 20 years apart, and so the dynamic in our home when he left, you know, my mom and I became kind of partners, and so I, I understood the deal.
LYSA:
But I remember, you know, feeling like in that moment, like, I am... I no longer have the luxury to be a child.
JIM:
Wow.
LYSA:
I, I'm the one that has to help. I'm, I'm the one that has to figure this out. I'm the one that has to fix this. And I remember figuring out at that young age... Now I have a granddaughter who's 10 years old. I can't imagine, like, handing over to her the checkbook and all the bills and all of that, but in that moment of desperation, I understand why my mom did it. But at 10 years old, I was having to figure out what bills we could pay, what bills we had to hold, when, when were they gonna cut off our electricity, when were they gonna cut off our water.
LYSA:
Um, "Mom, we only have $20 this week for groceries, so you're... You know, when, when you go to the grocery store, like, we can only get this, this, and this, this." And so I think going back into my story is such a brilliant way to figure out now that I'm in ministry and I am offering legitimate help to other people, where is that pull, like you're saying
JIM:
Yeah
LYSA:
to wanna make everything okay for everyone else.
JIM:
We've talked often about agency, and with that is, um, some of us in the room, some of us listening and watching, it's time to de-role, uh, Lysa's precious mother Uh, also handed her an outfit, seriously, cape and tights, and said, "I want you to be Wonder Woman or Superwoman."
JIM:
Somebody's enrolled you. I don't doubt their motive, but their modus operandi, their method of operating was, "I need you to handle this." And at that moment you went on duty like a nurse, like a financial manager, like a whatever. And at that moment, sometimes may you find to g- a, a place to give yourself permission. You don't really need anyone to co-sign this. But for many listening, watching, and in this room to say, "Today I'm de-role-ing. It's time to hang up the cape and the tights," or whatever you've worn. And you don't have to be upset or mad about it, but to say, "I need to be me." Remember we say codependent people don't have a me.
JIM:
You actually do, you just can't find it. So that place is, "I'm going to resign from this role. I'm not doing it anymore." I would bless you by saying don't put the words “okay, question mark” on the end. See, you'll be changing the contract in relationships. It's just time to resign and new life awaits you. It really does. I don't care how old you are or how young you are.
JOEL:
Can I, um, speaking of permission, can I be a little bit nerdy theology right now?
JIM:
Yeah, please.
JOEL:
Is that okay?
LYSA:
We, we actually love it when you get nerdy in theology on us. Just spell the hard words. Okay. Because that is so aggravating if we're trying to take notes, you know?
JOEL:
Oh, I know.
LYSA:
Like say them slow, repeat them-
JOEL:
Yeah
LYSA:
and then spell them.
JOEL:
Yeah. Yeah, this should be easy. There shouldn't be any, any big hard words. But when you're talking about rehearsing stories, uh, I think it's so important for us as we're reading through the scriptures that we're recognizing that there's nothing new underneath the sun.
JIM:
Amen.
LYSA:
And so when you think about the life of Jesus, one of the things that often New Testament scholars try to point out, um, something I'm super passionate about, is that the life of Jesus is very intentionally being lived out as a rehearsal, a retelling of the story of Israel.
JOEL:
I mean, if you just think about his life, like think about the wilderness temptations. Think about at, you know, as, as a child he runs to Egypt, right? It's like retelling of the Joseph story. I mean, you've got this retelling that's taking place, and it's actually embedded into the, the structural narrative, the literary framework of the New Testament to remind us that if we can step back into the story and now we can say, "Oh, here's how it was." It's like a right understanding of how it was.
JOEL:
And now go, "Oh, and here's how it should be." And this is what Jesus does for us in the New Testament. He's actually showing us how it was, how it should be. In the midst of faithlessness, what does a faithful life look like? And actually, in a way, it actually helps us with our self-awareness so we can rightly orient our own lives, um, in a way that is honoring to God.
JOEL:
And I've said this before, I know you guys have, um, heard me say this, is a theology that is unlivable is absolutely unhelpful.
JIM:
Amen.
JOEL:
A theology that is unlivable is absolutely unhelpful. And how do we have proof that we have the- livable theology? It's the incarnation It's Jesus who takes on human flesh, and he lives a life as an invitation for you and I to follow.
LYSA:
So the big question is, okay, now that we, we're kinda like in our story and we're recognizing some of these things, um, it's not gonna be every person in ministry that wants to take their help too far. But for those of us that do, I wanna make sure we give some practical things. It's not just about becoming self-aware. It's also like, okay, now what do we do about it?
LYSA:
So I wanna have both of you comment on this, but I think one thing I've been studying a lot and I've been working on... I'm working on a new book right now called, um, Making Peace With What I Can't Control. And so it's not that I'm a controlling person in that if we're going out to lunch today, I wanna control where we go, when we go. No, I, I'm very flexible. It's like, you get to decide and I'll go. I'm go with the flow.
LYSA:
But where I start to step in and wanna control something is when I feel like I can see a disastrous outcome, and I'm just really curious why no one else can see it. And so, like, I'm not trying to control you. I'm actually trying to save your life, okay?
LYSA:
And, and so I can feel that. Not that I wanna control the people that I'm helping, but I can feel the angst. If you keep going down this path, like I so desperately w- wanna show you what, what could potentially happen here, right? And so Joel, you and I have studied a lot this year about the difference between control and stewardship.
JOEL:
Mm.
LYSA:
Now, when I say the word stewardship, most of the time people think a good financial steward, but I want you to think about being a responsible steward of life, okay? And so if we're in control mode, the mantra that we will often say to ourself is, "I am only willing to accept the outcome that I think is best."
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
LYSA:
If we're being a faithful steward and being responsible in how we help and what we do for others, and making peace with the fact that you can't change them. Because if someone else is unwilling or incapable of changing, then we have to learn to accept that because we can't possibly fix what's not our, um, abil- that's not within our ability to manage.
LYSA:
So stewardship is gonna take a completely different role. Stewardship is saying, "I will manage what is within my ability to manage. I will be responsible, but the outcome, I have to leave with the Lord." Like I just do. My job is to be obedient to God. God's job is everything else. And so I think for me, I'm learning how to really watch.
LYSA:
Am I being responsible, or have I crossed the line now to where I wanna be controlling? And it's often with the outcome.
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
LYSA:
Am I only willing to accept the outcome that I think is best, or am I willing to leave the outcome with the Lord and just be obedient to what God tells me to do?
JOEL:
Yeah, I love that, and then just a quick, uh, connection point to what we're studying about is in the Garden of Eden, um, God sets everything up in the context of what He can control, and only He can control everything. And yet He gives Adam and Eve a stewardship responsibility to take care of the garden, to cultivate it, to be fruitful, and to multiply. And I remember, Lysa, we were talking about this once with Shae and Leah, and the, the posture is what matters. And so the controlling posture suggests I have to grasp and take, right?
JOEL:
The, um, stewardship posture says, "I can sit and receive."
LYSA:
Mm.
JOEL:
And so we have to ask ourselves, are we receiving what the Lord has given us? And now we would need to be responsible with the things that we have received. Or out of insecurity or fear or whatever the motivation is, do we find ourselves in a posture of grasping to take?
LYSA:
Mm.
JIM:
Yeah, hearing both of you, and Lysa, knowing you, um, so well with, with this, uh, the more that you do your story work, therapy is not the only place to do story work. Do it with one or two people. Get your story out. That's what we do at Haven Place, these retreats. Get your story out. The more you do story work and you become aware, you've heard me say, I think it's in a book, you have to, in life, just simply collect the dots of your story, then connect the dots, and then work to correct the s- the dots, right?
JIM:
The more you're more aware of your own story, not just the facts, but the impact, what'd that do to me? With that, right, you're now more becoming self-aware, and what we know with dopamine and neuroplasticity and what changes in your brain. Now watch, the more that you're in this book- Right? We are transformed by the? Renewing of our minds
JIM:
So you have neuroplasticity going on the more you're in this book. James says he will give wisdom liberally to all of us who ask for it. And you are changing, and your brain literally is changing. And then you become more not just self-aware, you become way more God-aware, Holy Spirit-aware, and more others-aware.
JIM:
And here's my line your buddy Jimbo gives you. It's, it, it's, I have to practice this daily. You don't think Lysa and Joel, PhD, brilliant scholar, has to do this? Watch very gently. From now on, just because you see a lot, doesn't mean you need to say a lot. Ooh. You cannot... You, you will never be able to unsee, minus a lot of drugs or something else.
JIM:
You will not be able to unsee what you see. The stewardship there is that spiritual maturity is to know do I speak or not? Now, watch quickly. Did the Lord Jesus Christ, both divinely and as man, fully God, fully man, did he kind of know everything that was going on? Think of the woman at the well. He was deep into the narrative, deep, before he said, leaning back, "Tell me about your husband."
JIM:
He could've gone for the jugular fast. She said, "Well, uh, I don't have a husband. I've been married." He said, "Well, we cool with that. You've been married several times." You said, "Forget marriage. I'll live with a guy."
JIM:
As you all are healers, and you are, and you're insightful in your wisdom, and you're going to podcast and, and you're gonna do great things, and some of you already are. Someone's gonna come up and want something from you. The pull, and you will be there. And just because you see a lot, doesn't mean you have to say a lot. Remember, too, the great theologian. What was his name? Jack Nicholson. "I want the truth altogether-
CROWD:
You can’t handle the truth.
JIM:
So even when you go to speak and having eyes to see, they cannot see, having ears to hear, and even for Christians sometimes, the- I'll watch and scan people and when I go, "My sister, my brother, you're j- I just know you're just not ready to hear what I have to say now." I'm not mad about it or defensive. I just go, "They're not ready." So in time, maybe I salt the oats, maybe the, you know, lead the horse to water, you can't make it drink. But I'm mindful that there are people who aren't ready to hear your incredible wisdom. You're just not ready yet.
LYSA:
You know, last night... Thank you. That's awesome. Yeah. I, I really need, just because you see a lot doesn't mean you have to say a lot. Yeah. Ooh, it's hard for gr- a word girl. That's just, like, real hard, you know? Um, but it reminded me of last night, I just had an experience where I had to choose not to say a lot. And it j- literally just happened last night, where I saw something and, um, and it, it was a situation where the... I wanted to say a lot, I really did. I, I had this whole speech in my head, and I... It was so good.
JIM:
Teleprompter, I'll bet, too, ready to go, right?
LYSA:
Man. Man, I mean, it was, it was good good, truly. Um-
JOEL:
Now we wanna hear it.
LYSA:
But I know. I wish I could... I, I just can't. I can't te- Yeah. Yeah. I... It was just a speech that somebody needed to hear, in my estimation, okay? And so, um, but I remember this person walked out the door, and there was another person right beside me, and I hadn't said a word, but I wanted to.
LYSA:
And I think this person beside me could feel the angst and, and, and she s- The person beside me said, "You want that person to be happy, don't you?"
JIM:
Wow.
LYSA:
And I said, "I, I really do. I really do. And, and I, I just, I know what they need to do," you know? And she said to me, "Lysa, have you ever considered maybe she doesn't wanna be happy?"
JIM:
Wow.
LYSA:
And I remember just sitting there and, and that's something I think that we need to think about, too, when we are wanting to take our help too far. Sometimes we are wanting to make something true for another person that just isn't true for them. And so we can help them, but we, we can't possibly, like, fix their narrative or control what they do and don't do, and we may not...
LYSA:
Their, their motivation of what they want may not at all be what we think that they need, right?
JIM:
That's good.
LYSA:
And so I think that's part of this. Another thing, keeping it practical- is I had to start making peace with my limitations, and this was very hard for me. Sometimes I would carry the pressure of being a Christian woman, that I need to do everything for everyone, and that it was like if I exhausted myself, that made me, like, checking the boxes, like I'm really living the way God wants me to live. Like, I'm doing-
JIM:
Wow
LYSA:
everything for everyone. And I know, we- we've handled a lot of this in counseling, so, um, but-
JIM:
Oops
LYSA:
but I, I do think, I, I, whenever I hear Jim say wow, I'm like, "Oh, great. Our next therapy session- ... he is gonna bring all this up."
JIM:
I don't know.
LYSA:
Um, but I do think that we need to recognize we are limited.
JIM:
Amen.
LYSA:
Not necessarily because we're selfish. We always wanna check our motives for sure. But most of us, we're limited not because we're selfish, but because we're human.
JIM:
Amen.
LYSA:
And when we start to act unlimited, like we have everything to give everyone, and we think that that is the call of us because we are on ministry, then basically what we are saying is we are unlimited.
LYSA:
And then when we feel and say that we are unlimited, that means we think we are God. Because only God is unlimited. And so a practical thing for me is, Lysa, make sure you're not being selfish, but where are your limitations? Where are your limitations? Because here's the reality. If I get to such a depleted place, then the best of me is not gonna be front and center.
LYSA:
Oh, it might be, it might... The best of me might be able to be front and center on stage, but where the best of me falls apart is when I get home to the people I really need to be loving on and helping and serving and being with. And so if I'm getting to such a depleted place by trying to be all things to all people, then I am, I'm not keeping the best of me front and center.
LYSA:
And so who is the best of me? And this is a great exercise to do. Who are you when you are the best of you? Are you fun? Are you like the life of the party, or are you quiet, but you wanna like make food for people? What, what is it? Who are you when you are the best version of you? And then you backfill, okay, then where do my boundaries, where do my parameters, where do my limitations need to be? And go ahead and make peace with those.
LYSA:
On a practical level, I realized that when I stepped into, um, being a help for people who have walked through the same thing as me, that I absolutely, I absolutely love being there to help and console and share my experience wisdom for women who are walking through a divorce.
LYSA:
It's a story I never wanted, but now that I have that story and I've learned things that can help other people, I have a great desire to do this. But what will absolutely exhaust me is if I get caught in a conversation where someone's like, "Do you have a minute?" And it's really
LYSA:
And so I recognize there's a limitation on myself there. And so I don't put myself in situations where that can happen. And how I do that is I used to love to do book signings, but unless it's a very small contained group, I recognize I can't do... I shouldn't say can't. I can hear him channeling my inner Jim.
LYSA:
He said, "I won't do." I won't do, um, those things because I know what can happen. And as a trying to be a recovering people pleaser, I also will walk away from a dynamic like that where I've had to say to someone, "I would love to hear your whole story, but, you know, there's like 25 other people in line", and I, I hate that feeling of cutting someone off.
LYSA:
And so it's better for me not to put myself in that position, and not to realize I can stand out there for five hours, but to some people that's not gonna be enough. And so it's really crucial that I identify what are my limitations, and I recognize that I'm not supposed to be all things to all people. And, and when I am, I may very well be getting in the way of what God wants to do for that person.
LYSA:
Let's shift gears a little bit. Now we've talked about wanting to help too much, but now let's go to the opposite extreme of where we're in ministry, and we wanna... You know, it's, it, it becomes less about helping other people. And a real pitfall is it can be tempting to use people as a means to an end.
JOEL:
Hmm.
LYSA:
Like, instead of having the real heart to help people, we desire a crowd because a crowd builds a platform, and a platform provides opportunity. And so then we swing the pendulum over to making it too much about ourselves.
JOEL:
Hmm.
JIM:
I can speak to that, uh, quickly. It's gonna be, you know, sound bite over and over again, self-awareness. Uh, ministry I have found, having been on church staffs and ministry, on this team we're very pro-ministry. I have no time or space to be bashing pastors and critiquing. I have enough to say grace over in my own life.
JIM:
But you begin to believe that even if it's a smaller church or smaller ministry, you believe your press clippings. You believe your Instagram, uh, stories. You begin to say, "I am this," and on like that. And dopamine in the brain will fire, and it will feel really good that people think I'm something. Maybe little Jimmy as a kid didn't feel like he was anything.
JIM:
So the awareness of, okay, or I can feel the pull of people there, I can feel the pull on me that I really like to get words of affirmation from people. So to start with that self-awareness that is there. And one of, one of my big things is gonna be learning how to respond and not react, and that means that's different. Reacting's really a trauma word.
JIM:
And having that which I call, some of you've heard that, a personal board of directors who can do a 360 on you. Honest people, not yes women or yes men, who can say, "Are you aware?" And then you don't have the self-awareness but others' awareness to say, "Hey, are you aware of this is going on?” It feels like you're people-pleasing or you can have 39 affirmations of how awesome you are, and one person says you stunk, and it takes you down a rabbit hole.
JIM:
It'll... It's, you know... But to have accountability that is honest accountability. Remember, what happens in vagueness stays in vagueness. We don't want vagueness. And say, "Hey, how's it work?" 'Cause people around you will notice and say, "What's the pull? What's that that's going on on you?" And ministry is a place to be, last comment here, to be pedestalized. It feels good. I've had it happen to me. But you coming off that pedestal one way or the other, and we really do not want to pedestalize people.
JIM:
We're a celebrity culture in many ways, even in the church at times. And to be willing to say, "I wanna be there. I can't help it if I have a large..." Or how many thousands of Instagram followers as some of you may have. But I say, "I'm also this person here, and I don't wanna believe that I'm like my own avatar or my own AI version of me." I wanna have humility but have accountability that can say, "Hey, how's this working for you," right? Accountability is key.
JOEL:
Yeah, and that's good. You guys know there's a reason why Jesus was murdered, right?
JIM:
Wow.
JOEL:
Well, that's like a tough one. Um, uh, Jesus was unwilling to allow the people to use him to get what they wanted And the entire narrative structure, the entire story of Jesus' triumphant entry, it's actually aiming at this.
JOEL:
All the things that the people do, crying, "Hosanna," it's actually, um, based off of a Psalm that would welcome in a victorious king after battle. So here are the people chant, making a chant that was connected with what they anticipated and they hoped that Jesus was going to do. The, um, waving of the palm branches, that was actually rooted in the Maccabean Revolt, where, um, palm branches were waved after a, a massive battle and victory.
JOEL:
And here comes Jesus riding on a colt, on a donkey. Which if Jesus was really serious about military victory, he would have rode in on a stallion as the symbol of vict- And yet he doesn't. He rides in on a colt, on a donkey, which is a symbol of peace. And so, um, Jesus was just absolutely unwilling to conform why he had come onto Earth for the sake of pleasing other people.
JOEL:
Um, and this concept for me that I've really been thinking a lot about is this concept of ordered allegiance. Uh, I think we live in a, in an age of disordered allegiance. Hmm. And the challenge of that is that we have all these things that we love, you know? And they're good loves. Like, they're things that we really love.
JOEL:
Like, obviously if I were to say right now, y'all need to know this, I love my wife Brittany. Like, I really do. She's so cute, she's so smart, she's so funny. She's got these freckles that just pop out insanely in the summer. Like, I love my wife Brit. And then I were to tell you- I know, that's good. Thanks. Can you guys send that to her? Anybody got a clip of that?
JIM:
It'll be on Instagram tonight.
JOEL:
Uh, and but then I were to say, "You know what, guys? I love Snickers bars."
JIM:
And Taco Bell.
JOEL:
Jim-
LYSA:
And Oreos.
JIM:
We're gonna keep going, sorry. We interrupt this program.
JOEL:
What is happening right now? It's like we really are friends and do life together, which by the way, I have not ate Taco Bell for seven months, I just want you guys to know. Leah, I promise.
JIM:
Can I bless you too with a therapy thing real quick? Just because you see a lot doesn't mean you need to eat a lot, okay? So bless you. Continue.
JOEL:
Thank you, Jimbo. Uh, I love Snickers bars. You know, it's like the caramel, chewy, nutty, like, right? And I, and you guys were to like, "Oh," um, and I would say, "You know what? Which one do you love more, Snickers bars or your wife Brit?" Everybody would be like, "Obviously Brit." But if I were to say, "Well, no, I really love Snickers bars," uh, we're having a big therapy session, aren't we, Jimbo?
JIM:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Right? Disordered allegiance.
JIM:
That's so good.
JOEL:
Disordered loves.
JIM:
Yeah.
JOEL:
A- and Jesus understands the order of his love, and he loves the Father. He wants to do the will of the Father, and so he's gonna order his actions based off of the order of his allegiance and his love. And so, um, I think it might just be a good practice for us as we think about, like, this unhealthy desire, um, to use people to get what we want. Typically, it's because of disordered loves. There's a disordered allegiance there, and we need to reframe that entire conversation.
LYSA:
So good. You know, I love how we're talking about really becoming self-aware, doing our own story work, and all of that because the spotlight never fixed anyone.
JOEL:
Mm.
JIM:
Wow, that's good.
LYSA:
It never fixed anyone. The spotlight only exposes for the whole world to see what you haven't yet worked out in therapy And so, and I, I don't say that to step on anyone's toes. I'm, I'm saying it, like, ask me how I know. And, um, and so, you know, I am so, so grateful that I came across opportunities to do my own story work. Because the story that we tell ourselves about the traumas that we've been through will be the stories that we share with other people. And so, you know, sometimes have you ever heard people say, "Well, you know, I'm, I'm just, I'm just saying it like it is," or, you know, "I'm just sharing my truth."
LYSA:
Well, we need to make sure that our truth is the most healed, holy, submitted to Jesus truth, right? And, and we do wanna be honest, you know, with ourselves, and honest about our story. But we also wanna make sure that the story that we're telling ourselves is one that has been tended well to, so that when we share our story with other people, we're not bleeding all over them, or even harming them as we're attempting to do good. I think that's really important.
LYSA:
I think it's also really important to remember that people are so precious to God. And we should not look at relationships as transactional.
JOEL:
That's right.
LYSA:
Like, "Okay, I'm gonna give this to you, now will you give this back to me?" In the last several years of my ministry, I've, I've done a lot in ministry. I really have. And I've had incredible opportunities, and I'm really grateful for the opportunities that we've had. But as I've sat and thought about how do I wanna walk out, you know, the next phase of my life, I just turned 56. And so I am... Thank you. Just this week. Yep, I did. 56. Um, and I'm still kicking it. So happy.
LYSA:
Um, so-
JIM:
Yeah. Go
LYSA:
But as I think about, you know, all that, that I've been blessed to be able to do and all that I'm headed toward, my desire is no longer for big. It's just not. I, I wanna go deep.
JOEL:
Mm.
LYSA:
That, that's, that's how God's wired me, you know? And so that's one of the reasons, as I look at the life of Jesus, I see He did individual ministry and He did ministry with the crowds, but a lot of His ministry was sitting at the table breaking bread with broken hearts.
JOEL:
Amen.
LYSA:
That's what I wanna do. That's what makes me sing. That's when I feel so alive. And that's why I started doing Haven Place retreats. We limit them to 50 people and, you know, it's because in that context, I can stand there with women.
JOEL:
Yeah.
LYSA:
I can talk to them individually, and I, I literally, when we break up in small groups at our Haven Place retreats, um, a group of 50 women broken up into three, it's like maybe 15 to 16 women
JIM:
Yeah
LYSA:
and I walk them from Haven Place right into the front door of my house, and we sit at my dining room table, and I do exactly what I say in my books. When I say in my books, I wish we were seated at the table just having a conversation, Haven Place allows me an opportunity to do that.
LYSA:
Is that me building a platform? No No, that's not building a platform. Is that caring well for other people? Yes. And so I just wanna challenge you. You know, I remember when Meredith first came to work for me, and she was like, "Okay..." And, and Meredith is brilliant, and there's a reason why I promoted her to CEO of Proverbs 31, because she knows how to handle the business side of ministry.
LYSA:
Is there a business side to ministry? Absolutely, there has to be a business side to ministry. But I remember Meredith sat down and, and said, "Okay, like, let's think about our one-year goals, let's think about our five-year goals, let's think about, you know, our 10-year goals or whatever." And she's like, like, "What's, what's the strategy?"
LYSA:
And I said, "Well, I would love for you to think about one year, five year, 10 years."
JIM:
Yeah.
LYSA:
I think that's good. But that's not, that's not where I let my heart go. Because for me, I just wanna be obedient to God. And I, I want, I want just each day to wake up, and I just wanna be obedient to God, and then let God do the rest.
LYSA:
And as I look at the scope of Proverbs 31 Ministries today, I'm, I'm shocked by how, how much it has grown. But I want you to hear me loud and clear. It's not because I was super terrific at knowing how to build a platform. It's not because I was super terrific at knowing how to make something big. I really just wanted to tell the world about Jesus.
LYSA:
That was really my heart. I didn't even have a vision for any of this, you know? I think when we think about the word humility, that's a really important word to keep front and center in our lives as we step onto any stage, any platform, hold any kind of microphone. The Lord ultimately wants us on our face before Him.
JOEL:
Mm.
LYSA:
And there are two pathways to get there. There's the pathway of humility, and there's the pathway of humiliation.
JIM:
Yep.
LYSA:
The only difference is one chose to bow low, while the other tripped and fell there.
JOEL:
Mm. But both of them wound up on their face with the Lord. So as we wrap up today, I just wanna end with this.
LYSA:
Where do you need to be in ministry, no matter which side of the shoe fall, wanting to help too much or wanting to help too little? Just be on your face before the Lord.
JOEL:
Amen.
JIM:
Amen. He will show you, He will guide you, He will give you what you need, and then rise up and just say, "My job's to be obedient to God. God's job is everything else."
SHAE:
And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name.
SHAE:
We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministry study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com/Lysa to choose a child to sponsor today.
SHAE:
Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener says, "I'd love some insights on healthy women friendships. How can I pursue this after being hurt?" I'm gonna pass it off to Lysa Turkhurst to answer this question.
LYSA:
Oof. Being hurt in a friendship is really, really hard. Sometimes I think we underestimate how much it can really affect our, um, outlook on life when a friend either walks away, moves away and doesn't stay in touch, or rejects us and hurts us in some way. So I just wanna acknowledge that hurt, first of all. But pursuing friendships, I think, is really a delicate art.
LYSA:
I think sometimes we think it's just gonna be natural. We just show up in a space where there's other women gathered, and of course, naturally, we're just gonna make friends. But here's some things, especially after you've been hurt, that I would look for. I've written a little acronym, and it actually spells the word camp, C-A-M-P. Um, and you know, you can have fun with that, like camp is where you sometimes make friends or whatever you wanna say. Uh, before I get too cheesy, let me jump into CAMP.
LYSA:
So the C stands for capacity. You know, when thinking about friends, sometimes expectations can really become simmering resentments in disguise. And something that I notice about myself is when I set an expectation on a friend without considering their capacity, I'm setting myself up to personally feel maybe hurt or anxious when they're, you know, when, when they say no to requests that I make.
LYSA:
Um, so what I would say i- that I've learned is understand if you have a high capacity friend or a low capacity friend. If your friend is low capacity, go ahead and make peace with that and understand there are times that she is not going to be able to keep up. There are times that she's not gonna be able to do something that you really wanna do, not because she doesn't like you, not because she doesn't wanna spend time with you, but because she has a lower capacity than you do. So C is capacity.
LYSA:
A is availability, which holds hands with capacity. You know, is this, uh- Female friend that is maybe a stay-at-home mom and she's got lots of kids. Well, her availability to even get on the phone is probably gonna be limited. And so think through that. Like, what kind of availability does she have? What kind of availability do I have? And do those timeframes match up?
LYSA:
You know, certainly if it's a working mom, then during the business day she's not gonna be available. And then she's also gonna need to spend time with her family when she gets home from work. So really think through availability and does that match up, again, with what you are needing or looking for in a friend, um, and also what's realistic.
LYSA:
The M is maturity. This is probably the biggest one, um, that really matters a lot. And I ... When I say maturity, I mean emotional maturity, but I also mean spiritual maturity as well. I know personally for me, I need friends that I can process things with, that I, I can have confidence that they are in God's Word and that they are growing and developing and maturing in their relationship with the Lord.
LYSA:
Because I know that they're not just gonna give advice, they're gonna approach our conversations with the desire to share wisdom that is sound and biblically based. Um, so I think that's really important, too. You know, one thing that's important for me in friendships when it comes to maturity is I wanna know that these friends are praying more words, um, over me or about me than they even speak to me, especially when I'm going through a hard time. You know, some people say, "I'll pray for you. I'll pray for you." But I want friends who I know actually are praying.
LYSA:
And of course, the reverse is true of all of these things as well. If I want to have good friends, I need to be a good friend. So I need to make sure to clearly communicate my capacity, my availability, and then demonstrate maturity in my relationships.
LYSA:
And the fourth thing is personality. You know, some personalities just match better with other personalities, and then some are not as great of a match. So I think it's really important to think through, you know, is this person extroverted or introverted? And go ahead and plan accordingly to, you know, how that's gonna work according to your personality.
LYSA:
And again, just because they're different doesn't mean that the friendship can't be awesome. Actually, some of my best, best closest friends are different than me. And, um, and I love that about them because they bring a refreshing aspect and perspective to my life, um, that I need to consider. So of course, a lot of my friends are the same as me as well. But think through those four things. Capacity, availability, maturity, and personality.