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Geek out, do good. Join us every week as we explore the potential benefits of comics, games, TV shows, and movies through the practice of Geek Therapy. Hosted by Lara Taylor, Link Keller, and Josué Cardona.
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I am joined by Link Keller.
Link:Hello.
Josué:And Marc Cuiriz.
Marc:Yo. Yo.
Josué:Today, I want to talk about, some of our biases. So I'm going to ask you to be as honest as possible about things that maybe you wouldn't usually, be so forthcoming about.
Josué:And and the reason the reason why I think this is important is because I over the years, through geek therapy, I've I've noticed a lot of biases regarding different types of fandom. And just imagine, Marc, I don't know if you do this. Right? Like, you're seeing a client, and you're like, this person likes I don't know. Ready Player One.
Josué:Suddenly, feel right? You have you you you you have a particular, you know, prejudice about people who who who like that book. And then it kind of, you know, it colors your your perception of them. And so we'll we'll touch a little bit about, like, how do things happen, where they come from by exploring some some some of our own. Another example is, I'm sure this happens to you all the time, Marc, since you're a big fan of Assassin's Creed.
Josué:I'm sure a lot of people think that you, like, you just love murder. Right? Like, you're just a big fan. You're that's what you're all about. And and you give off that that vibe.
Marc:I give off the vibe that I enjoy murder.
Josué:Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. And then you just prove it with, you know, with your with your love of everything, Assassin's Creed. And so so the last week, I took my nephew to urgent care because he was he was not feeling well.
Josué:And he he has, like, a sweatshirt on so that he the the doctor is like, oh, take, like, take your sweatshirt off so I can so I can, you know, listen to you to your lungs and see how they sound. So he takes his sweatshirt on, and he's got a t shirt underneath, and it's a Captain America t shirt, just a big Captain America shield on the front. And the the doctor thought it was really cool. She was like, oh, Captain America. That's so cool.
Josué:You must really like, do really like Captain America? Like, are you a superhero? And my nephew's 10, and he looked disgusted. Okay. He kinda looked over at me, like, what is this?
Josué:And and I I see what the doctor is doing. She's trying to connect. Right? Like but I mean, she did not read things well. And then all she's doing is
Link:jump to a geek therapy attempt was made by Mhmm.
Josué:Yes. Yes. Yep. Yep. Oh, that crashed and burned.
Josué:Yeah. That was that was a a a pretty big fail. And and it was so funny to see him because then he he seems uncomfortable. And then he's trying to play along because at that point, he's like, oh, this lady Oh, she's really
Link:into it.
Josué:Yeah. It's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Josué:Yeah. I got there. And when, of course, like, at that I mean, he's just wearing whatever other people give him or has been handed down, and he didn't think about what he was gonna wear that day. He grabbed the first thing. And he really doesn't care about Captain America.
Josué:To him, Captain America is a character who has a weapon in the current season of Fortnite. And it's a weapon that he doesn't even like. Right? He's like, oh, I opened an Avengers chest. Ugh.
Josué:There's another cat Captain America shield in here. I don't want that. Right. So that's kind of, like, where he's at with the trees in the movies and things, but, like, that's not really what he's into. But again, I I see what she did, and I didn't go into a lot more with with her.
Josué:But she just, you know, she made the assumption that, you know, oh, it's a hero. Are you a hero? Do you feel like that? It's funny. Lara isn't here, but Lara Lara loves Captain America.
Josué:When we record, she's got a a shield in the background, and I believe she said on the show multiple times that that Captain America is her favorite hero. I don't like Captain America, but and I don't think my my my nephew does either. But I understand why people like Captain America, and there are different versions of him. And so, I don't know, if somebody tells me that their favorite hero is Captain America, I can still, like, I I automatically make some connections because I know about the character. But also, some people may not know about the character and just have completely I don't I don't know what that doctor was thinking.
Josué:So I'm curious, have any of you had that? Like, can you remember an experience where someone made an assumption about you based on a fandom in particular? If something else comes to mind, like, I don't know, the color of your hair or a tattoo or something you were wearing or something you said, that that works too. But I'm just curious if you can anything comes to mind.
Marc:I it's not necessarily like a a fandom in particular, but I know, like, when I first started, like, watching anime, like and I would mention the, oh, you know, I I watch it. But, like, at the time, it was only, like, a couple shows. I know people would, like, make, like, immediate assumptions or, like, ask me what I think about these particular shows and shows like I've never seen before, never heard of at the time and I was like
Josué:Like Zashbelle.
Marc:No. Zashbelle is the one I probably could have talked about. But they'd be like, oh, like, well, have you seen like, some of these I have I knew about, but I never watched them. Like so, like, oh, have you like, did you watch bleach? Like, what do you think of bleach?
Marc:And, like, people would just, like, try to go all in and try to ask me all these questions of all these different shows, and I'm like, I've seen Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z. Like, that's how much I've seen so far. Or, like, if I, like, mentioned or like, even recently, I guess, could say, like, I've like, I watched, you know, My Hero Academia. I enjoy it. But I know that when I tell people that like that's a you know, I've watched it and I enjoy it.
Marc:A lot of people tend the people that I've talked to or I shouldn't say everybody, but a good amount of people will have that like, we'll start talking differently or they'll start immediately just shitting on it.
Josué:Oh, no.
Marc:Exactly. They're like, oh, My Hero sucks and and, like, you know, totally yucking my yum. But, like, they'll have this bias of, like, okay. So, like, you don't you're not watching, like, good shows, and then they'll try to, like, get me to watch these other shows that they think are really good. Okay.
Marc:And so they'll they'll have the bias of like, oh, this this guy doesn't have taste. He doesn't know good shows. I need to teach him.
Josué:Gotcha. So that falls into the category of, like, yeah, like that gatekeeping kind of reaction of like, oh, you like anime? Do you really? Do like any of the good stuff? And then you're immediately being judged and rated.
Josué:Exactly. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That that that that one that one counts for sure.
Josué:Link, can you think do you remember any of that stand out?
Link:I have two examples. They feel sort of like associated. It's not it doesn't fully line up with your your nephew's experience. But one is recognizing somebody wearing a Bazinga shirt, recognizing that that was from a nerd show and then then immediately assuming that I because I recognized it that I must also consume the show and I was like, Oh, I don't watch that show. And then having to find the nice way of being like, please don't continue to talk to me about it either.
Link:I just I recognized it. I was hoping we could use that to segue into one of my interests.
Josué:Alright. To to to clarify, Bazinga shirt, that's a reference to Big Bang Theory.
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:Somebody
Link:Somebody was wearing a Bazinga shirt. I was like, oh, that's from, like, Big Bang Theory. Right? Are you into and I can't there was something else whereas I tried to like, oh, are you into this other nerd thing that there is a through line there? And they were just like, no, and then just started quoting the show to me.
Link:And I was just like, Oh, no, that's, uh-oh. I was like, Oh, no, I don't actually I don't actually watch it. I recognize that you are saying character names. I recognize that much, but I don't know what you're talking about.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Like, oh, no, I get the reference.
Josué:And I'll speak for myself. I hate that show so much. And then you go into different reasons why. But I I really don't like the show. But I think that's funny that it's like, oh, you got the reference.
Josué:And then it was assumed that, oh, you're one of us.
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:I said, no. I'm just an I'm just informed about
Link:pop culture. Was very funny because it's not like this was like right when the show started. So this was like a a rare reference. It was like, no, they've been selling these shirts at Hot Topic for like half a decade now. This is not a new thing.
Link:Yeah. But yeah, that was that was one example of another sort of example, a couple of times in my life. Contextually, am Jewish. And so a couple of times in my life talking about Judaism and Jewish content within other media and really upsetting a bunch of people that I've still never seen Schindler's List of which is complicated. Oh, but it did become a joke for a while.
Link:I was just like, oh, Link's not even seen Schindler's List.
Josué:But so so what is the what is the judgment or like, what is the assumption?
Link:There there is a an assumption from a lot of non Jewish people that Jews must have seen all of the Holocaust movies. Is just the the follow that this is my I've never I've never really picked through somebody's thought process on there. So I'm I'm I'm projecting what I understand to be happening in this situations. But there is an element of like, well, you're Jewish. So you've definitely seen the Holocaust movie.
Link:It's like, there's more than one. But that's the one that everybody's like the Holocaust movie. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Did it did become a joke, but it's like, interesting. Layers to it.
Josué:Yeah, this this kind of falls into the what Marc said, right? Like that assumption of, if you are this, then all these other things must be true. And is that then that is coming to you from people who are not Jewish? Is like, that's has been your experience? Okay.
Link:Yes.
Josué:Yeah. Interesting.
Marc:You know, link when Lincoln, you're talking about the Bazinga shirt that that brought up something for me too. I have another example.
Link:Excellent.
Marc:So my for context, my my wife has a work friend. And, you know, when when we were getting to know them, she know she introduced us to her boyfriend. And the the segue that they used to, like, get me to try and and, like, socialize with this guy was, oh, yeah. By the way, he also plays Assassin's Creed. And that I remember, like, meeting him and and we were talking, hanging out, like and I asked him about Assassin's Creed and that he played it.
Marc:And I thought like, asked, like, know, what do you think of the games? He was talking for a little bit. And then I I just dialed it to, like, a 12. I just
Link:went on into it. Like, I I just started
Marc:I just started going off and, like, I was like, alright. You're into this game. Like, you like the history. So, like, here's all this deep lore and everything. And he's like, yeah.
Josué:Mean It ain't that serious.
Link:I just like murder.
Marc:Yeah. He was like, I just I just like doing the swish swish shab. No. Like, it he was a very much a fan, but it wasn't to, obviously, to my level of, like, fan like, you know, huge fan of the game and, like, really deep dive trying to dive deep into the whole world of Assassin's Creed. Like, he enjoys the series.
Marc:He enjoys playing it. But it's not to my quite at my level. And that was my thing where, like, I was like, oh, you like it, and you've told me, like, certain things. So, like, here, I'm gonna just go full throttle and just start talking about all these things. It's kinda like the pediatrician.
Marc:And he's just kinda like, yeah. Like, he's enthusiastic, and he's trying to be nice about it. But I I realized, I think, after the fact, I was like, I I tried a little too hard. I need to tone it down a little bit.
Josué:So so this goes with, like, it's kinda like the person wearing the Bazinga shirt. Like, you're excited that somebody else has this common interest
Link:Mhmm.
Josué:Which I think which I think is is is cool. And I think I I think it's one of the reasons to wear, like, a graphic tee or or have something visible. Right? It's like, wanna connect with people who share in this in this interest. But that goes to the degrees of it as well.
Josué:And and I don't think this was on you, Marc. Right? Like, like, I understand the interaction. Right? It's like two people.
Josué:Yeah. We have something in common, but our levels of interest and knowledge of it are so they're almost incompatible. Right? They're like, for you, it's a way of life. And for them, it's a, you know, it's it's it's a game that they played that they play every now and then.
Josué:And and that goes into, like, the levels of fandom as as as well, I think, where we we judge each other based on how much we that goes again into the gatekeeping thing. It's like, are you a real gamer? Like, do you wonder this is this is why and I don't think we've talked about this in for years, Link, but but we we've talked about it before where video game research is so frustrating. Mhmm. Because it's like, oh, video game players, what are you talking about?
Josué:How are you defining like, who what how are you defining that? Right? And and you can and they can get so nuanced in there of, like, what not only what types of games that people playing the same exact game can be also be having completely different experiences depending on the game based on a number of factors. Right? But then we we kind of generalize and then lump people into the same category.
Josué:And so that's why so much of that research, I think, is research that doesn't define the game, the game experience, or the the the population properly is garbage and worthless. But then these are the real life versions of those experiences. It's like, oh, they have a PlayStation also. It's like, yeah, it's like, we have pants. I don't know, like, that's it's not it's not, you know, what do you play?
Josué:I only play FIFA or, you know, like, there there are lot of people who only play Madden, only play FIFA, only play Call of Duty. That is that is, like, a big chunk of of video game players. And there are people who only play, I don't like RPGs. There are people who play a little bit of everything. Like, you can't always get all those people together to to have a truly fruitful conversation.
Josué:So I'm gonna flip this one this a little bit. What what assumptions do you make about people based on some of these? Like, much which ones have you have you actually had an experience, if if you can remember one? But which ones do you have that that like, we know them, right? Like, we know that they're prejudice.
Josué:I I know one time, we had a booth at New York Comic Con, Someone came up to the booth and she was dressed in a Star Trek uniform from Next Generation, pretty sure. And then she walked up to the table and I was, like, so excited and I and I and I want to connect. Was, oh, it's so good to see a Trekkie today. And I could tell a look on her face. She was like, you just put me in a box.
Josué:I am not a Trekkie. Like, I am not. And it was it was surprising to me in the moment because I was like, well, why else would you dress up? And but it's like, of course, I mean, it's it's a convention. People wear costumes.
Josué:It doesn't have to be that serious or or any meaning behind it. But she seemed bothered and even uncomfortable that I kind of made that assumption and put her into into a box. And and that didn't feel good from from, like, my perspective, because that's not what I wanted to do. But I can tell you that the belief that I had in the moment was like, oh, this person really likes Star Trek. And and so they must like science fiction.
Josué:And, you know, they love conventions. Like, I made all of these. I made all these assumptions about this person based on where we were and what and what they were wearing. Have you had, you know, any any experiences like that come to mind?
Marc:I think probably one for me that I would say is probably more of a negative prejudice that I have. And this is, I think, bit of a hot take for some people. It's The Office. I I really did not care for, I should say, the the American version of The Office. I I I really tried, and I just couldn't.
Marc:I couldn't do it. It wasn't for me. So that's fine. If you like The Office, that's fine. But in my experience, that for the people that, you know, like the office, they they love the office.
Marc:And so like, for me, anyone that that like says that they enjoy it, like my mind immediately goes to like, oh, great, you're probably going to get a bit annoying, you're gonna be making a lot of references a lot of quotes. And just all around just, you're gonna annoy the crap out of me. And I know that's not always true.
Josué:Of course. Yeah. It's just that that's
Marc:I just know, like, that my mind just starts associating like, oh, you like the office? You're annoying. Like, that's where my brain goes. And so, like, I immediately just don't wanna have, an interaction with said person.
Josué:So your assumption is that people who really like The Office, right? Like, the people who are like, I'm always watching it on repeat. Mhmm. Who who will drop a reference every now and then. Those people, you find them annoying.
Josué:Yes. And so if someone just says, like, if they say, like, oh, one of my favorite shows is The Office or I love The Office.
Marc:That's a
Josué:great You're assuming that they're gonna start being annoying. Okay.
Link:Yes.
Josué:So, like, I just You know that that's an assumption.
Marc:But Yes. I recognize that that's an assumption. That's something that that, like, it just a thought that will happen. So, like, I'm always actively, like, you know, going against it in those moments because it's like, You you're enjoying the office, but, you know, you're not sitting here referencing it every five seconds. You're not constantly quoting it.
Marc:You know? You're not doing anything like that. Now if they are doing that, then you're not you're I I no. No. Thank you.
Josué:At that point, it's not an assumption anymore. At that point, that's just this was your experience.
Marc:Exactly. Then then it just becomes a lived experience. But So, like, for me, like, I recognize that. And I think that's just and I know that that started really kind of taking shape in high school when The Office was really popular, when it was really blowing up. Because I knew, like, everybody when I was in doing drama and I was doing theater stuff and when I was in choir, everybody was watching it.
Marc:Everybody was quoting it. Everybody was referencing it. And I had absolutely zero desire to ever watch this show. Like, everyone was talking about it saying you need to watch it. I was like, oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah. Yeah. No. It just never had the desire. So, like, that's where it started forming with me because I started finding all the conversations just, like, repetitive.
Josué:Yeah. Speaking of assumptions and stuff, so you were a theater kid? I was a theater kid. For
Marc:two years, and then I got a job, and I couldn't do it anymore.
Josué:So you're not a theater kid anymore? Nope. That that is like that's like a thing. You're not
Marc:I'm not theater kid anymore.
Link:A reformed theater kid.
Marc:Yes. I I got out before it got too deep. Okay.
Josué:Okay. Yeah. I mean, I can speak to the to the Big Bang Theory as well.
Link:Yeah. Think I think these all sort of go together because that that was part of part of the the element there is is when I when I tried to redirect the conversation using Bazinga as a as a we're leaving this, we're bouncing off of this here and we're leaving it behind and then turning around going like, we're going right back. I I did make a lot of judgments in that moment about about this person.
Josué:So I'm curious,
Link:very similar similar things where it's just like, it's fine if you like this show. But if if you are like, I love this show. I'm that was always
Josué:I'm curious your your thoughts deeper on that. Now I can share mine. To me, the Big Bang Theory is a show that makes fun of geeks and nerds and and and nerd culture. And so I've the reason why I don't like it is because I feel like I'm I'm being I'm being represented on the show and being made fun of.
Link:The representation is disrespectful.
Josué:Extremely disrespectful. Every time I see it, I feel I feel like I'm being disrespected and laughed at by a stupid laugh track. And and Honestly, that's the thing that
Link:annoys me the most is the laugh track is the same thing with How I Met Your Mother when that was very popular. The person I was seeing at the time was like, I really like this show. Let's watch it together. I was like, I'm enjoying this show. But if anybody was like, I love how I met your mother, was like, I'm a little suspicious of you.
Link:That maybe you're not a cool person.
Josué:Okay. So so so Riggs, the way the deeper part of the of Big Bang Theory for me is that then if you really like the show, I think one of two things. Right? This is my assumption. One is that you think you don't take my identity seriously.
Josué:Like, you don't you you would disrespect me and the things that I like, just like you would laugh at the characters in the show. So honestly, to a degree, I I I there have been times where, like, I feel unsafe in in that sense. I'm like, oh, like, this person, like, does not respect me. They think they think that the things that are most important to me are a joke. That's one.
Josué:And two, the other type of person would be if I consider this person a geek or a nerd, and they still like the show, then I'm making an assumption about, I don't know, their intelligence, or their their sense of self awareness and
Link:Self esteem?
Josué:Mhmm. Self esteem, kind of. But it's more like it's more like no. It's more of a awareness. It's like, but do you you don't think that they're making fun of you?
Josué:And I've had this conversation with people. Right? I'm like, you don't think that they're making fun of you in this show. And they don't see it that way. And then I'm like, then then, like, I have trouble trusting people.
Josué:Look, I've met I've had these conversations with people. I know it's an assumption. I know it's not it's not true, but that is what comes into my mind. If you tell me that your favorite show or one of your favorite shows is Big Bang Theory. What do you think of someone who likes How I Met Your Mother?
Link:I if you like it, that's I mean, there were parts of that show I enjoyed. I don't think that there's anything wrong with liking it. I begin to question your how what what I think what it is is I I have seen so many cool TV shows and movies and stuff that are, like, really funny or really thought provoking. And I'm like, if you pick this like, widely popular but not very like deep or layered or anything, it it I think ultimately what it comes across as to me is like a lack of curiosity and that that is something that I value I guess is that it's like if if How I Met Your Mother is your favorite TV show, especially if you tell me that right now in 2024, when it's been done for several years, and stuff like that, it's like, I'm like, oh, so you're like, you're not watching new shows, you're not interested in looking at other other things that are good. Like, if that's still your favorite, aren't you curious to find funnier shows out there than than how I met your than Ted you could find somebody funnier than Ted Mosby.
Link:You could do so much better than Ted Mosby. I think I think that's what it I think that's what it comes down to. Because like I said, like I I watched I didn't watch all of How I Met Your Mother. I watched most of How I Met Your Mother and there are definitely parts I enjoyed. But it did take me a long time to deal with the laugh track is very jarring and upsetting to me.
Link:Auditory wise, I'm like, oh, no.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. It's, that lack of authenticity is painful. That I I do I can relate to that feeling of when I meet somebody who like, always rewatching The Office, or who every year rewatches the same Christmas movies or Halloween movies, I make that assumption too. I'm like, there's nothing there's new stuff.
Josué:It's like someone who like, I only listen to nineties r and b. I'm like, no, that's cool. '90 r and b. I like nineties r and b. Have you have you heard anything else?
Josué:Let's go after that. Doesn't mean you have to like it more, but like, that's the only thing that you listen to. Why are you averse to? And and then at that point, then my mind starts going to, like, oh, you're a very conservative person in that aspect. So I start making assumptions about you being conservative in a whole bunch of other different areas.
Josué:And, like, one simple thing, your interest in music or or TV shows can be tied to all of these other things. This is this is how this is how.
Link:Using that as a jumping off point, I have another internalized bias I would like to share about a group of people, people who play League of Legends. I make a lot of assumptions about that. And it is very much a singular aspect playing one particular game that I'm like, I will I will spread that judgment much broader than that into like, oh, relationships you have with other people and self respect. All sorts of other broader judgments that are unfair to apply to strangers. But I do a that is I will be honest about that I if somebody's like, oh, yeah, I play low.
Link:I'm like, so
Josué:I want I don't understand exactly what the what what is it?
Link:League of Legends is a MOBA game, Just broadly, but it is known for having a very toxic player base,
Marc:extremely toxic base
Link:as a reformer is that is externalized coming from other other game players where you know, there's the rivalry where you know, Dota play Dota two players hate low players and vice versa. So there's, there's that direction, also internalized where low players will be like low is the top most toxic game ever. So there is a self awareness in there, which I don't know if that makes it better or worse.
Josué:So your assumption is what then?
Link:If somebody is owning up to being like, Oh, yeah, I play low and they don't sound like a little bit ashamed of it. I assume that they are toxic that they they are a toxic player within the game and that likely because of that that they are toxic in other ways in their life.
Josué:Got it. Got it. Often interest
Link:just baseline is like, Oh, if you if you play well then unless proven otherwise I am going to assume you're like misogynistic and racist like baseline.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I get that.
Josué:I get that. Yeah.
Link:Context I played Dota two for a while. I think that's true of Dota two players also. But the, the immediate gut gut judgment, does not come as hard for DOTA two as it does for League of Legends.
Josué:I I saw a TikTok recently where it was one of those kids where someone does two two different parts. And one was, like, the kid coming home after school playing Fortnite, and the other one's like the 43 year old woman just trying to, like, unwind after a long day of work, and they're both playing Fortnite. Right? It's like, you can the experience can be, like, your reasons and the way that you play can be so different. So that's an interesting one too.
Josué:Because to me, when I think of League, if someone tells me, oh, I play a lot of league. I don't know. It's probably the people I know who play mostly. I'm like, oh, that's cool. You have a group of friends that you can, like, that you have four really good friends and
Link:like That's true.
Josué:You're dedicated and like, you you strategize. And you you like, it's for me, it's more admirable. I don't think so much because to me, all gaming is toxic. Like like, gaming online is just a fucking Yeah.
Link:No, that is all extremely true and reasonable. And I agree. I do also want to say I don't know if my brother still listens to this podcast. But if he listens to this episode, I wasn't calling you out specifically. I love you very much.
Link:I don't think you're toxic. But yeah, but I that's totally true. There is an aspect of it where it's like these are these are they're competitive games, but there is a cooperative element, you're on a team. And so it's like that is a true true statement is like having group of people you're playing with regularly. And the communication that's required to do well in the in MOBAs, like, those are all from me.
Link:Those are all positive things. But it is very much like the playing league,
Josué:That yeah.
Link:My my slurs have you said in the last week? Be honest. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. That's yeah. That's that's I mean, this is how assumptions and prejudice come come to play. Okay. That's a that's a good one.
Josué:That's a good one. So I don't remember if we went into a lot of detail in it, but what what what were your thoughts about the Red Dead Player one thing? I know we talked about it before, and we we laughed about it. But what what what were your thoughts? Like, what are your thoughts of people who who like Ready Player One?
Link:Think I think it goes back to what I was saying is like, don't I don't have issue with you enjoying this thing. But if if you are listing this as like, this is my favorite thing, then I'm like, but but there's there's so much stuff. I think what it comes down to I'm unpacking this a little bit right now as we have this conversation. When people ask me what my favorite thing is, I will either just give like, oh, here's something I'm doing right now that I'm enjoying, or I really struggle to be like, oh, my favorite, my favorite thing. And so I because it's like, I love so many things.
Link:There's so many things in the gold tier. Like how could I possibly just pick one to tell you about? Let me tell you about eight. And so I think I think there's an aspect to it where it's just like, Oh, if that's your favorite thing, then you're missing out on all of this other cool stuff. Aren't you aren't you curious to find out about all this other cool stuff?
Link:Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But I do I think it's sort of similarly is like already player one is my favorite. Was like, but there's so much like better cool sci fi that like, engages with the same kinds of concepts that Ready Player One is engaging with that I think you would enjoy even more. And, and the prose is more interesting.
Link:And the characters have more depth and female characters have a third dimension. And it's like, that kind of stuff where, yeah, it's it's less about like, oh, you like that thing? And I like I think that thing is bad. It's more it's like, oh, that thing's like, okay, but like, there's more stuff. Are you interested in in more stuff?
Josué:And none of those other aspects go into the the judgment of it? Like, on a deeper level, connected to other other aspects?
Link:I don't I don't think on its own, as much as because of like reading books or watching a movie I feel is less a fully different engagement than playing games, especially playing online games. Yeah, that that comparison point, it doesn't fit as well.
Josué:And so the it makes a big difference for you if I, if I say I enjoyed the book, or I liked the book versus that's my favorite book.
Link:Yes.
Josué:Yes. Huge difference for you. Okay.
Link:Oh, no. Is that is that autism literal thinking?
Josué:So yes, absolutely. 100 Jesus
Link:Christ.
Josué:Yes. Yes, it is.
Link:Yo, dog. Yeah. Wow.
Josué:Actually, mean, you've been that was the last three minutes of of of
Link:the explanation. That was the whole thing. Wasn't it? Wasn't it? Wowie.
Link:Hoo boy. Well
Marc:Yeah. Nothing like making some revelations live on the podcast.
Josué:I've struggled with that too. But but I mean, for for the sake of this conversation, when you asked me that, I I literally answered your question as well. Like, I I did literally mean, it's like, it's been my favorite book to read. Right? Like, that's a but but of course but of course, also being super literal.
Josué:Right? There's like, it's like, what's your it's like, it was an I'm I'm measuring on very specific, like, to me, favorite means something, which means it was an entire experience and a feeling around it. If you ask me what is the best book I've ever read, then I'm going into, oh, like the way it was written and the way I was impressed. Blah blah blah blah. Right?
Josué:It's like and and then and then that's a very different very different thing from from, like, what what was my favorite experience or what would I revisit? What do you enjoy? Yeah. I'm I'm super specific as well. But but when you ask favorite, like, then I'm answering it from my perspective of it.
Josué:But, yes, it's a very literal literal thing. Yeah. Which which I get which I think I think is a big part of this. Because if we're literal, then we have less space for the nuances in between. And it's a lot easier to make those connections of.
Josué:If you love the office and you're constantly having on repeat, all of these things are true about you, and they must be true. Because, obviously, that's that's the way the world works. Yeah. Right? And so I think I think that does have that's a more complicated part of this conversation that I would love to, like, have a what, like, a psychologist and a sociologist on here who who can, like, look at this and who's looked at this in a deeper sense to explain some prejudice and and and biases.
Josué:But ultimately, it goes down to and something that is always has been helpful for me, and I try to remember often, and I try to bring up to other people. Most of the time, we are talking, like, past each other. We're not we may be saying the same words, but we're not talking about the same things. So like you said favorite, I said favorite, and we're using both two very different definitions of what that is. And we're even assessing the source material in this case or the people on completely different
Link:Yep.
Josué:Scales and qualities, which which is is kind of why I wanted to go into into these specifics because it's interesting to see, like, what's in in someone's mind. And for you, like, it's come up often now, like, that it's like it's that idea of, like, how can how is it possible of all of the things that exist in this world? That that one thing is the thing that you have on the pinnacle at the top of your list Mhmm. That that omits everything else because by definition, your favorite, you can't have more than one favorite. There's only one.
Marc:There can only
Link:be one. You're taking me back to middle school and having to explain that, like, to me, best friend is a is a like a level. Exactly. You reach that level and then you exist in that space. And for other people, best friend is a singular title position held by one singular person.
Link:I was like, I did not understand that. Why? It's like, oh, we're having fully different conversations right now. I see.
Josué:Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. These are these are it it it's hard.
Josué:I mean, I think it I think the important thing is to just be aware that of I think that that part of it is the is the best one. It is the best piece or is is one of the most helpful is that idea of, like, just even the words coming out of my mouth don't necessarily mean doesn't mean that you understand what I'm saying, and and you're making connections to them. But that's a that doesn't mean it doesn't necessarily mean what you think. Asking for clarification is good, but just making no assumptions, having trying as much as possible to or just to be open to to set aside those projects. It's hard, but is it can be very helpful, particularly when we're talking about like, in a helping profession or an education or or just trying to connect with somebody.
Josué:That's that's a that one's hard. It's like, oh, you like Big Bang Theory? Peace. I'm out. Oh, you don't like Assassin's Creed like I do?
Josué:Can't be friends. You know?
Link:I do I do think that, you know, just being on this podcast and having our our consistent conversations about stuff like this has really changed the way, like, my internal process of this this experience of judgments towards other people based on like, oh, what what thing did you name as something that you like? I I feel that I frequently am coming from a place of like, I'm curious, why? Why? Why do you like that thing? Why did you name that thing as your favorite or the thing that you're interested in right now?
Link:And so, you know, leaving less space for judgments and more space for curiosity. And just being more interested in that stuff is something that we practice here. And so I feel I have definitely gotten better about it. I would never I would never say shit about Ready Player One being your favorite. Now.
Link:2018, I was stinky. 2024, very demure, fairly mindful.
Josué:Not like that other link.
Link:Not like that other link.
Josué:It is it is it can be protective at times, but I think for the most part, it is it is yeah. It doesn't it doesn't it doesn't necessarily help. To to to wrap up, are there any are there any biases that you like, reverse assumptions that you assume that people have about you because of a like that you that you have, that you maybe don't talk about or don't say. Like, one thing that I thought about a lot in recent years is take Harry Potter, for example. Right?
Josué:If you say that you like Harry Potter, are people going to bake an assumption about my about my beliefs being aligned with JK Rowling's or that somehow I really, by liking the book, I agree with her. I mean, I'm assuming that people are making the assumption that I even know what the hell she said because I'm I'm still under I'm still I'm pretty sure that 95% of people who who who love the books have never seen the stuff that she said or or, like, the, like fans of the books, right? A lot of people don't know. I don't know if 95% but, you know, especially younger
Link:Insignificant amount of people who don't go on Twitter. So I've never seen JK Rowling's Twitter.
Josué:Exactly. Exactly.
Link:Yeah. Yeah. That's actually a that is another really good example. Harry Potter. I'm thinking more recently, a lot a lot of online discourse around the Hogwarts Legacy game.
Josué:Mhmm.
Link:And a lot of judgments about people wanting or not wanting to play that game, people choosing to buy or not buy that game, people choosing to stream or not stream that game. There was a lot of layers of discourse going on around that.
Josué:Yeah. Even the developers themselves, before the game came out, made a statement that like,
Link:she wasn't really known. Recognition that this was going to be discourse. Perhaps feeding that discourse. I don't know. Yeah.
Josué:Yeah. Yeah. But kind of getting really like, don't don't associate me with with that person. What what one for me is, like, I'm I'm not a Harry Potter fan like that. So I don't I don't have that connection to it.
Josué:But I really like Ender's Game and its sequels. And that's written by Orson Scott Card. And I I don't know the guy. I barely know anything about him. The little bit that I know is that he seems to have I don't know how much he's written about how homophobic he is.
Josué:I believe he's contributed to politicians who who are who do not believe in in in equal rights, I believe he has been asked. And like many Christian authors, he's just like, no, don't believe in gay marriage, things like that. But I've never bothered
Marc:to
Josué:look into it very much or doing that. And and, of course, there may be a judgment because of that, like, oh, why aren't you going further? But, like, but I really like the his his books and his writing. And so those are things that I think about a lot. But it's like that the creator and the art piece.
Josué:I go back and forth on it. But but that's one where if somebody, you know, something like, oh, what's a what's a what's a book that you're thinking that you think about often? I'm like, fuck, I think a lot about speaker of the dead, which is the the first sequel to Ender's Game. And it's got some really you know, and I'm afraid somebody's just gonna be like,
Link:oh, you read Orson Scott Card?
Josué:You hate gay people? I'm like, what what the fuck just happened? That's out of the book. Doesn't come up.
Link:What are
Josué:you talking about? Yeah. So that's one that's one that comes up for me. And then just a general actually, Lara has a really good blog post on the website. And it's it's titled, like, geeks are not children and grown up bodies.
Josué:Right? And it and it talks about that assumption of, like, if you just because you like video games, you like comic books, you like a lot of stuff that we we talk about here, it doesn't mean that you are immature, that you're a child, doesn't mean that you are insert whatever. Sure. Some people have those assumptions less now, I think. You know, superheroes are pop culture now.
Josué:It's not it's not like that anymore. But it still it still happens. And I still and I hear more from other people who still experience those type of that type of prejudice and are afraid of it. Yeah. Is there anything that you you're, like, reluctant to or that you don't that you think maybe think twice about before bringing up, like, something that you really like?
Marc:League of Legends.
Link:Oh, I'm two for two. Straight out of bow. Oh, that's that was really good. Well done.
Josué:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Marc:I so I will say I I did play League of Legends a lot in high school. I was very toxic. Very, very icky. Very yucky. Really?
Josué:Let me I mean, like, did you behave icky? Or
Marc:No. I mean, like, just the fact that, like, back then, I was very uninformed and very impressionable and just kind of being in that like, just playing that game a lot with some friends that weren't the best influence on me
Josué:Mhmm.
Marc:As well as just constantly playing that game and being exposed to it, then you just kinda like I just kinda fell in the line with it Yeah. At that time. So I look back at that time, and it's not the greatest. Not my not my my brightest moments. It's fine.
Marc:But I haven't like it's it's one of those games where like I can I go so long? Don't even think about it. But then there are times when like I I remember that I played this game and then all of a sudden that urge just comes back. And it's funny because, like, when I'm talking to some friends that, like, we used to play it together, we have that joke where it's like, I have that urge to be toxic again.
Josué:Mhmm. Like
Marc:but for me, it's more of, like, I did enjoy playing the game. I know I'm not like, I knew I was never great at the game. Like, I do I can't like, those mobas are not, like, a game that my brain can really process all too well, but I enjoy playing it. And the couple of times in recent months when I have picked it up and played it, like, I'm not in engaging with anybody. I'm not talking to anybody.
Marc:Like, people are are, you know, putting in stuff in the chats or even then, I didn't see a whole lot of it personally, but I also never played ranks. So I know that's where it usually all lies. But in the stuff that I was playing, if someone was saying something I wasn't engaging in and I wasn't trying to talk to people, I was just playing the game just for the sake of playing the game, which I do enjoy. But as I now if I were to play it now, if I were to go into ranked, I also would not be engaging in that type of behavior or saying those types of things. But I I kind of hold the same biases as link where it's like, oh, you're telling me you're really into league and you play ranked, you're toxic.
Link:See what see what I said about both external and internal beliefs?
Marc:Yeah. So like
Link:The lead players know.
Marc:Exactly. So, like, that is something that, like, I I'm not very quick to just come right out and say, like, oh, yeah. By the way, like, hi. I enjoy playing League of Legends or Counter Strike. Like, both games have can have it like, have they have a pretty toxic fan like, fan bases and player bases.
Marc:So It's not the most forthcoming. It's usually if the conversation does come up or they express interest in those things, then that's where I can segue my way in. But I'm also testing the water to see, are are you one of the chill people? Or are you one of the one of those kinds where I don't really wanna continue interacting in this conversation? So I I think that's that's probably the really the only thing because Percy Jackson, Assassin's Creed, you guys know I talk about I live and breathe it.
Marc:It feels like Personality. Yeah. It is a personality. People can judge and and and have their biases about it. I don't care.
Marc:I'm still gonna talk about it all day long. It gets incorporated in every episode.
Josué:Last question. If you don't have an answer to this, this is fine. But I'm I'm curious if you have any any of those assumptions that you are trying actively trying to correct. I can I can I can tell you for me, one of them is golf, people who play golf? And the other one is I've been I've really been struggling with that one with the with the the golf one.
Marc:That's okay. I forgive you.
Josué:Yeah. And and then the other is it's actually Fortnite. And it's it's it's funny because to me, Fortnite was something I would like it's it's gone up and down, but it has gone more towards the negative because of the content that my nephew consumes on YouTube about it. Like, my experiences with it are not bad. But it's it's like, I have this assumption of of of the larger community.
Josué:And and I play Fortnite irregularly. I play till I get skins and and do special events and things like that. My nephew wants to be a professional player and he plays every day and he'll play. He'll sit there for twelve hours if you if you let him. And and it's just it's just really interesting.
Josué:But I I when I hear somebody really likes Fortnite, I have all these positives, but also negative assumptions that I'm still trying to get rid of. But mostly, it's golf that I've been struggling with.
Marc:That's okay. One day, you'll understand the thrill of golf. Thrill? It's a thrill, man.
Link:Thrill?
Josué:Yeah. I've got a long way. I'm I'm there's a long way to go for me.
Marc:You know, I'll I'll I'll show you. I'll show you one day.
Josué:Again, just curious if you guys have thought about that. If not, that that's fine. I don't know why it's such a struggle for me, but I I do think about those often.
Marc:I think for the longest time, there was, like I will say for the longest time, it was the the A Court of Thorn and Roses, like series. Before I even thought of ever reading those books, I did have like I always have like a negative assumption about them. I'm like, oh, okay. So like you're really into that fantasy stuff. And like, everything I heard about it was like, you know, ah, you just wanna read these things with a smut.
Marc:Cool. Great. Love that for you. And then I then I read them. And while, yes, that is a part of the that is there.
Josué:And your favorite part. Not my favorite part.
Marc:I will say.
Link:My second favorite part.
Josué:God. It's only the second favorite.
Marc:Gosh. Well, yes, while that stuff is there, like, I I as I was reading them and listening to them, I had a much deeper understand. I gained more clarity in it. Then I was actively working against and working away from those negative biases that I was having. That goes with really anything that really exponentially grows in popularity in pop culture.
Marc:My immediate thing is to just actively avoid it. Oh. And I don't know why.
Josué:You're one of those.
Marc:And not always. It's like sometimes I get on the hive train. Sometimes for some things, I'm just like, absolutely not. Like, Office or Big Bang Theory or How I Met Your Mother. Like, a lot of those big sitcoms back then, I had no desire.
Marc:Did not wanna watch those. It wasn't until, like, years later when I was like, okay. I'll give them a try. But, yeah, I don't know. That's that's just a me thing.
Josué:I I am that way too. Like, if everybody is moving in the same direction, I'm immediately suspicious. And I stop and I start walking backwards and in a different direction. Yeah, it's like I get that one. Well, if Link doesn't wanna admit that they are want to grow as a person and
Link:I some group less. I I mean, I yes. I I I would I want to be less judgmental. I think that's that's something that you just you keep working on. I don't think that there's a
Josué:there's no specific
Link:that don't think there's a goal you can reach where it's like you've done it. No, no, you're no longer judgmental is like no, it's something you got to keep working on.
Josué:Yeah.
Link:Yeah, I mean, think I agree with you guys. There is an aspect of like, when something gets like really popular very quickly. There's a little bit of resistance to, to getting in with that. But I don't. Yeah, I don't know.
Josué:There's no group that you're like in conflict about. Not group but like, you know, like a fandom.
Marc:Yeah. Anything else you want to call me out for? Or host
Link:No, I mean, there's there's lots of like parts of fandoms that I I find distasteful. I can think of examples within within the Baldur's Gate three fandom. There's been some some gross stuff in there that I'm uninterested in gay engaging with even though I am very much a big Baldur's Gate fan. Similarly, the when Steven Universe was really popular and as the show was ending, that also had some in internal fandom stuff that is like that, I'm not interested in engaging with it. I guess the judgment would be people who are willing to go very deep into a fandom like that Because my experience has always been like, even the things that I get very deeply into, I will not engage with certain aspects of it.
Josué:I see. I
Link:see. You know what I mean? Like getting getting it when Game of Thrones was on TV reading the all of the subreddit posts about that I was very much engaging in that space. I was talking about it with people in real life and everything but I wasn't that was not a thing I was using Twitter for. Or Tumblr.
Link:I wasn't on Tumblr yet. That sort of thing. So it's like there are there are certain aspects of fandom that is like, oh, if you're if you're that deep in the fandom, then I will have some judgments about you. Maybe that maybe that's something I could work on. I don't need to be judgmental about people who are willing to go deeper into the fandom than I am.
Josué:But you mean you mean deeper in not just in a, like, deeper sense, but like that, like, well, we need to take all of it, like the good and the bad kind of thing. Is that what you mean?
Link:I think just I don't know. I don't know. How do I how do I wanna explain it? How how do I explain it? Just, I guess, a level of argumentation I I shy away from.
Josué:Like justification, you mean? Like,
Link:okay. A more recent example is Our Flag Means Death, which I did get very deep into, and I was reading, like, fanfic when it was coming out. I was looking at a lot of fan art on Tumblr and Twitter and everything. And once the second season started airing, I there there was like a year and a half between the the first season and the second season, maybe two years. Anyways, I had I had sort of reduced my engagement in the fandom.
Link:And so when the second season started picking back up, I started engaging in that space again. But I think because I had taken that step back, there were ongoing discourse conversations that were happening that I was like, don't I don't this isn't fun. This isn't fun to to argue about which character does or doesn't deserve redemption because of whatever reasons. And so the it was it was like it got it got too deep in the fandom too deep in the weeds that I and then I wanted to bail out. Not even bail out, just take the step back is like being like, I like to be in the fandom, but I like to be on sort of the the edge of the fandom.
Josué:Okay.
Link:Which I think is reflected in the fact that my participation in fandom is very is mostly looking at other people's stuff. I'm not writing fan fiction. I'm not creating fan art. So I'm not producing in that fandom. I'm just consuming.
Link:So I do think that there is an aspect to it there as well. Maybe that's the thing is they to be less judgmental as you have to actually produce stuff and be judged. Be judged by others to release yourself from judgment.
Josué:Is is that along the lines of, like, you're not it's like the levels of the fandom. Do you feel is it is it the people who are like, oh, you need to do all these other things to be a true fan? Or
Link:Yeah. I don't like that. I don't like that aspect to the gatekeeping purist stuff. I don't like people who especially when you're talking about, like, Balder's Gate where this is, like, an experience that the player is having that is distinct from other players experiences. And then somebody saying like, no, this is the true canon thing.
Link:It's like, well, except that that didn't even happen in my game. So what does that mean? And and having sort of like, long form arguments about like, well, but this is the correct way to understand this character because of this one die dialogue piece I'm using as evidence. And if you don't agree with me, clearly, you haven't played the game enough. You don't care enough about these characters.
Link:You're not a true fan. All that stuff, it gets weird and and bad feeling.
Josué:Okay. Okay. So yeah, so like going so deep. Like, you you struggle with that with, like, like, this person why is this person so deep in there? Like, like, it doesn't it doesn't have to be that way.
Josué:Like, why why are you like, you feel uncomfortable? I'm I'm just trying to understand.
Link:Yeah. No. I mean, same. Same dog. I think I think it's sort of wrapping back around into this idea of being so narrow in in your belief about the thing.
Link:Yeah. It go it's it's both the, like, unwilling to engage with it and also that the way that I have engaged with it is the only way to engage with it. I don't like either ends of those spectrum.
Josué:Got it.
Link:Does that make sense? That feels I feel sort of like it makes sense to me.
Josué:I'll give you the closing thing.
Link:Shaking it out.
Josué:Yeah. No. No. No. I I see the pattern.
Josué:You've brought this up multiple times in different ways. So I think I think so. And the closest I can come to the closest thing that reminds me of, and I don't know if it is, is for example and I think both of you have done this in the past where you've told me how many hours you have spent playing a particular video game. And my thoughts immediately go to, are you fucking kidding me? Do you know all the other things that you could have done during that time?
Josué:Not just not just other media wise, but just like in general. And then if you and then and then I get then I get super judgy if somebody's like, oh, I don't have time. I I'd I'd ran out of time where I couldn't do this or I couldn't do this other thing. And I'm like, you just admitted to me that you spent three hundred hours. Like, I can see your steam profile.
Josué:I can see your right? Like like, I I think about that. And that is something that that's a firm judgment that I have that I haven't been struggling with. But that's one that comes up like I think I think I do think about. No, it's not true.
Josué:I do struggle with that one. Because I immediately make that that jump too. It's like and and it so I don't I don't know how close it is to what you're saying, but that's something that I do think about.
Link:I think that's definitely a layer to it.
Josué:That's too much. That's too much. Yeah. No.
Link:Yeah. Like like, Our Flag Means Death is a great show, and you should watch it and rewatch it and enjoy all of the little details and make art about it. But like, there's other good shows you could watch too. You could watch a couple other shows also. There's there's some stuff out there.
Josué:So what if someone gets like a tattoo of a of a like a a show? Do you you feel the same way?
Link:What if somebody what if somebody does that? I'm holding up my pearl point tattoo for our audio listeners. I have a tattoo from a show. What is that like?
Josué:But do you do you think like, why did I put that one there? Like, something else could go there. Like, that's True. That's a space that could be taken out by something else. I don't know.
Josué:I'm just I I see those like that I think that way about tattoos.
Link:Yeah, I think I think there's totally overlap there.
Josué:Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, you.
Link:And that works as a representation also of that outsider people will judge you for your tattoos placements, but also people who have lots of their own tattoos will judge you for your tattoos and your placement. So it's it's the the bidirectional thing of the the un the uninvested and the overinvested have a lot of opinions.
Josué:This is I I I thank you both for going to
Link:Taking this journey with you.
Josué:This was a wonderful journey.
Link:Revealing truths about ourselves.
Josué:Lot of introspection. I think I think I think that's always fun, you know, that we can use media to understand each other and ourselves. I think that's cool. Listeners, let us know what are your fandom biases. Does anything that we're talking about resonate with you, some of your experiences?
Josué:How do you feel about golf? Let us Did the
Marc:golf will call you out?
Josué:Has the called you out?
Link:Yeah. Did I hit anybody with strays? Let's find out.
Josué:I'm I'm I'm I'm sure I think I did for sure. And let us know in the community spaces, links in the show notes. For more geek therapy, visit geektherapy.org. I'm ready to geek out and do good. I'll be back next week.
Link:Bye.
Josué:Geek Therapy is a five zero one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geektherapy.org.