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Veterans know how to lead. The lessons we learned in the military form the foundation for bigger successes in business, entrepreneurship and community.
Host John S Berry, CEO of Berry Law, served as an active-duty Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army, finishing his military career with two deployments and retiring as a Battalion Commander in the National Guard. Today, his veteran led team at Berry Law, helps their clients fight some of the most important battles of their lives. Leading successful teams in the courtroom, the boardroom, and beyond, veteran leadership drives the firm’s rapid growth and business excellence.
Whether building teams, synchronizing operations, or refining tactics, we share our experiences, good and bad, to help you survive, thrive and dominate.
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[00:00:01.780] - Ben Morley
Ego is identity's bodyguard. But the identity that the ego is trying to protect is a false narrative. And so it's like, don't do this, don't, don't write that book, don't step into that job, don't step into that role. It's trying to protect a false identity of us. And so we can stay in a position far more beyond our sell-by date, if you will, and stay stuck to an old version of us and not move forward when really we should be, we should be doing so because of that fear of who am I then if I move into that. And so I can circle back and I can tell you fantastic stories in the Starbucks coffee line of what I was doing 5 or 10 or 15 years ago in Desert Storm, or I was over here in Peru, or fantastic, great, good. What are you working on now? Who are you now?
[00:00:51.220] - John S. Berry
Welcome to Veteran Led. I'm your host, John Berry. Today's guest is Ben Morley. Ben is a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel and executive coach and the author of Caterpillar Soup at 30,000 Feet: The Leader's Guide to Mastering Your Greatest Transformation. Welcome to the show, Ben.
[00:01:07.900] - Ben Morley
It's a pleasure to be here, John. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:10.860] - John S. Berry
Well, I love your book. I got the pre-read and one of our good friends, Andy Moy, I believe, put us in contact. He also wrote a great book. But what I love about the book is the idea that you don't lose your DNA, but you go through a complete transformation when you leave military service. And a lot of us think that the whole metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly is that it's slowly growing, but that's not what happens. So tell us what happens when a caterpillar becomes a butterfly.
[00:01:38.860] - Ben Morley
You're exactly right. I think when we grew up, we thought it was this beautiful thing that it goes into egg, caterpillar, pupa, butterfly, where it hangs in the chrysalis and comes out to be this butterfly. What we do not necessarily know is that inside the chrysalis, which I call the cocoon, is that the caterpillar literally dissolves, which I call caterpillar soup. If you were to open it up mid-transformation, you would not see a caterpillar with wings. Oh, I see what's going on. No, it's caterpillar soup. It literally dissolves, which is what we do as we move into this transformation from the old version of us that is no longer there, but I'm not yet the new version. There's great examples of books, "To Be a Great Caterpillar," and wonderful books on being a great butterfly. I'm choosing this one for that, that dissolving stage in the middle, in the cocoon.
[00:02:32.870] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I think sometimes growth is not the way we plan it to be. And sometimes you're just completely dissolved, curled up in a ball, melting before you get to the next stage. And obviously you experienced some of that in your transition. So tell us a little bit about that. I know your book, you talk about you're getting ready to brief a Fortune 500 CEO and the executive team. You're thinking, what the hell am I doing here?
[00:02:54.750] - Ben Morley
It's exactly right. Yes. Sitting in the car, hands sweating on the wheel, outside of this building. What am I doing here? Why am I here? Why did I leave a position in a career that I had rank, title, role, position, everything was fine, and now What? I'm multiple standard deviations away from that. Why am I here? And there comes this point where I needed to stop asking why and then move into what now. I am going to open up the car door. I am going to go into the building. I'm going to go up and speak with that group of people and the imposter syndrome screaming at you. And so I'm not trying to act like I got an MBA and 20 years of experience. No, I'm going to— okay, I have a Ranger tab for a reason. I know why. I went in, or I'm an Air Force instructor pilot, and to approach the communication knowing that I did dissolve, but there is the value that comes with us from our military career will stick with us in this new iteration of who we are. And to then speak from that authentic self allowed me to approach the problems in that room that previous consultants were not able to.
[00:04:04.030] - Ben Morley
And with that new perspective that we have as Veterans, I was able to help them solve problems and move the needle significantly on a number of their projects within their corporation.
[00:04:14.760] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I think sometimes it's like the 360 assessment, right? Where as a leader, you need to know what your subordinates think, your peers think, and then what your bosses think. And what I found when you get into the private sector, it's much like that where you don't see everything. I mean, there's that 360 analysis, but also when you get into an environment and you're in that environment for a long time, it is so hard to see other things that could be painfully obvious. I mean, I just went through this thing where I had our lead trainer is an attorney, a Navy vet, great guy. And I was having him solve this problem. And what I didn't realize was I wasn't getting all the complaints to him. I was telling him, I'm like, he needs to see this stuff firsthand. And when he did, it was like, oh, I can solve this easily. But I was so locked into the way we were doing things, I couldn't see it even though it was stupidly obvious. So, I think sometimes as Veterans, we forget that, like, the value is there just because we've seen operations at a different level and we can bring at least a new idea in and we might be able to identify problems and maybe solve them.
[00:05:18.530] - John S. Berry
But at the end of the day, you know, they're paying you for your availability and your perspective, not necessarily to solve the problem.
[00:05:24.380] - Ben Morley
You're exactly right. Fantastic. And it's so easy for us to move into that imposter syndrome. Ego is identity's bodyguard. But the identity that the ego is trying to protect is a false narrative. And so, it's like, don't do this, don't, don't write that book, don't step into that job, don't step into that role. It's trying to protect a false identity of us. And so, we can stay in a position far more beyond our sell-by date, if you will, and stay stuck to an old version of us and not move forward when really, we should be doing so because of that fear of who am I then if I move into that? And so, I can circle back and I can tell you fantastic stories in the Starbucks coffee line of what I was doing 5 or 10 or 15 years ago in Desert Storm, or I was over here in Peru, or— Fantastic. Great.
[00:06:12.500] - Ben Morley
Good.
[00:06:14.110] - Ben Morley
What are you working on now? Who are you now? That's what you did. Who are you becoming and how can you better serve your clients moving forward?
[00:06:23.350] - John S. Berry
Yeah, it's, it's that piece of you. I think that that military piece that gives you an advantage. But that's not all of it. And this is where I think a lot of Veterans fall short as they get out and they say, well, I was a Lieutenant Colonel with 27 years. I want to be making this much money because that's what I'm worth, because that's what the Air Force says it's worth. Or, you know, hey, I was a GS-14 with 20 years, this step, blah, blah, blah. And they want to make the same amount of money. And I'm like, well, I don't think you understand. You can either make a lot more or a lot less. It's how much value you can bring to the marketplace. How much can you help other people? And some of those military skills have huge value, but you have to know how to leverage them. And you can't just come out and say, well, I was a Lieutenant Colonel 27 years, therefore you need to pay me $200,000 or whatever it is, right? It's no, that's not how it works.
[00:07:09.550] - Ben Morley
Yeah, that's, that's a tough night at the comedy club to try and start off with that walking in the room, into the room doing that. And I'm not invalidating the situation. I disagree with the solution. We can walk in the room and this is— I'm no longer Lieutenant Colonel. This is not the great Santini to be coming in and leading that way. No, I need to shift that around. Everything to your point. Stop, listen, find out, do the 360, wait, pause. OK, now I'm getting a better lay of the land on what's going on here. Because Lieutenant Colonel, Wing Commander, Brigade Commander, these are all terms that may just be bouncing off on the civilian world. You and I know what they mean, but we need to bridge that transition into that. But that can come from the active listening. Okay, so I know that I have these skill sets as a Ranger. I know what I have these as an instructor. But okay, now, as I got that lay of the land, okay, now I can start getting into a metro and into a rhythm and helping and validating and valuing their company and moving them forward on solutions.
[00:08:12.910] - Ben Morley
You're exactly right.
[00:08:14.270] - John S. Berry
Now, one of the people who did this just amazingly was, was Steve Jobs coming up with the solutions. And I love the story in your book, so I want you to tell the Steve Jobs story.
[00:08:22.690] - Ben Morley
So, Steve Jobs, there, this is the early days when DVD burning was brand new, and there was a company down there in the, in the Silicon Valley that, uh, had the technology on burning DVDs. It was a very complex process, you know, 10,000, 15,000-page manual, if you will. And they were going to be acquired by Apple, and Steve Jobs wanted a presentation on their new technology. And so, the, the owners were excited and they spent all day and all night for a couple weeks preparing for this big presentation for Steve Jobs. And they were taking that manual down from many thousands of pages down to this one document that created a beautiful PowerPoint presentation, all good. Steve Jobs walks into the room, he's great, the guys are ready to go with the presentation. Steve walks right past them. And goes to the whiteboard with a marker. He goes, here's what we're gonna do. And Steve Jobs drew a square on the board and he goes, we're going to drag the document into this, into this square and press burn. That's it. And that is essentially what it became with iDVD. These guys were crestfallen and they'd spent all this time, all this, right?
[00:09:35.890] - Ben Morley
But the point was that Steve Jobs took a principle to start with zero. They were taking something complex and trying to make it simpler. Steve Jobs approached it the other way. What is the simplest actions to take to get the desired result and build from there? And it was this point of start with zero principle, and it stuck with him afterwards. So it's a wonderful principle on dealing with complexity that, oh my goodness, we deal with in the military, but to shift that perspective around to try and start with zero first.
[00:10:05.120] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I find that if you can, like shift the paradigm, you can solve the problem better. I just had one where, you know, everybody talks about AI now. You need a human in the loop. You need a human in the loop. And so that was the whole discussion. Then I realized to solve this one problem, I'm like, no, for this level of team member, an entry-level team member, I need AI in the loop. I need AI to be help, you know, make sure that this person is making the right decisions. And when they make the wrong decisions, we get that feedback loop to our trainers and then we train them to fix the problem. And so it's always, oh, you know, that the fear of AI, oh, we need a human in the loop. I'm like, wait a My bigger fear is I've got a bunch of humans and I'm trying to figure out how we're going to hold people accountable and how we're getting the lead from a leadership perspective, how we're going to have eyes on. And I realize like, no, almost every scenario you want an AI agent or a bot in the loop monitoring.
[00:10:55.200] - John S. Berry
And because sometimes there'll be problems and the person will, for reasons they may be too scared, they may be inexperienced, they may not be that good. They don't know when to escalate. Right. But if you have an extra layer, then it's like, wow, like we actually can have supervision without a supervisor, right? Where we can actually get the data immediately and then create rules. And so I think it's— if you can look at a problem differently, right? And yeah, not just, okay, how are we going to burn CDs? Now we don't even think about burning CDs. I mean, when I was younger, yeah, that was the thing. It was like, oh my gosh, can you imagine a CD burner? And then there was a DVD and the Blu-ray players. And could you burn it on there like you could record a VHS tape? There are all these discussions. And now it's like it's not even a thing.
[00:11:38.400] - Ben Morley
You're exactly right. AI is the next iteration, right? We were lamenting when word processors came out. Everybody's going to forget how to type or how to write. That's a fax machine. We look at the autopilot in the jet. Oh, everybody's going to lose their skills on how to fly the aircraft manually. So we can look at all these iterations. No, the AI is exactly that. And what I work with the companies is to mitigate that variation and make sure that our radar is attuned so much that if the standards are here, if it's starting to trend outside of it, the AI can let you know and let your supervisors know that metaphorical Billy or Susie needs a little bit more work on what's going on here rather than 3 weeks down the road when something's really been able to cascade and we need to unravel it. So yeah, AI agents are wonderful. It's just that next iteration of technology to helping us to ultimately help our customers. You're exactly right.
[00:12:37.160] - John S. Berry
And, you know, we've been around long enough to see the change. I can remember as a young lieutenant with a map, a protractor, and a compass and going doing a land nav course. And then at the end of the course they said, okay, this thing's called a plugger and this is a GPS. And we were supposed to go out and do land nav with it, right? And it was like, oh my gosh, how do we use this thing? And then we figured it out. And now I, you know, I talk to kids and you show them a map, they're like, what's this? Like, well, okay, like I use Google Maps and it tells me where to go. And I'm like, you know, learning those skills, right? I think were important. But then it was the— you realize like change is here, like, and the old tools are not going to be around. And so, you know, when you're meeting with companies and they've invested millions, if not billions of dollars in tools and systems and they're trying to fix it and they— and there's this— how do you approach that? Coming in saying, well, you know, sorry, this is obsolete or this isn't going to work.
[00:13:29.450] - John S. Berry
How do you approach that, you know, consulting with them?
[00:13:33.210] - Ben Morley
The acronym is SIA: Simplify, Innovate, then Automate if needed. Yeah, I just saw a post that Berkshire Hathaway's website is stuck in the '90s apparently, and the users don't want to see it change. This is a great testimony to Warren Buffett and all of his followers and all that. That's a great point of it. I believe Berkshire Hathaway is doing okay. And the same with a company that spent— I've had this happen. Companies spent millions of dollars on one machine. And so to keep their CR machine, it's a wonderful machine. So yeah, I see your machine. But what they did was they did not want to see the machine brought back down to something called theory of constraints to work within the system as a whole. They couldn't stand to see this machine sitting idle, so they kept the machine artificially running. Which created WIP, which is work in process, which was more than what their customers needed, which meant that it went onto the shelf, which meant that was overproduction, which in 3 months became obsolete, which then became scrap. But did you see my machine? And my machine, machine is great, and I'm using my machine.
[00:14:41.400] - Ben Morley
I'm like, okay, you're taking— you're not looking at the process. You're taking a complex manual problem and creating a complex automated one. By just simply throwing money into the system. So you simplify, you innovate, then you automate if needed. And you're exactly right. Just because you invested in the machine, fantastic. Does that help out the customer? Great. We need to use it in terms and in service to that, not just keep the machine artificially running because you invested into it. You're exactly right.
[00:15:12.170] - John S. Berry
And the military— and we've seen this in the military where there may be these great machines, these great— what are they, flying machines, tanks, weapon systems, whatever. And then they're obsolete. They didn't work. I mean, I remember The coolest thing I saw as a new infantry lieutenant at Fort Hood was the TOW missile launch on the Bradley and this whole thing, fire and forget. That was such a cool slogan. It turned out that didn't last. But the idea was like you would push the button in this tube, optical wire-guided missile was just once it was on target, you didn't even have to think about it anymore. It was going to hit it with the wires on the missile. Now it's like that technology is so long gone dead. But that's the thing is we invest a bunch of money in weapons and tools and we realize, okay, there's easier ways to do it. And I'm sure you've dealt with, but probably not as much in the Air Force, but in the Army we had budget constraints. And so we had to use field craft and find ways to create things when there wasn't a military solution.
[00:16:03.140] - John S. Berry
And I mean, it sounds like it's no different than what you do now where it's like, well, you got to find a solution and it doesn't necessarily mean spending more money or building on top of this thing that in hindsight now was a complete waste of money. And it's a sunken cost fallacy. Like, what are we going to do with it? But how do you, you know, to walk leaders and say, hey guys, like, sorry, this $2 billion piece of equipment, this isn't going to get you where you want to go.
[00:16:28.870] - Ben Morley
Exactly. Yeah. Just throwing money at the problem without really knowing what the problem is. And that's that resourcefulness over resources principle, right? So as I was working just on site with a company yesterday to see that they didn't need to invest any more money to solve the issues that we were— it was to break down, get past symptoms and get, get to root cause. What's the variation going on? Is this training?
[00:16:53.900] - John S. Berry
Are—
[00:16:54.090] - Ben Morley
is there standard work that needs to be put in? That sort of stuff. I remember a story in the jet where we were losing pressurization flying over the Middle East. We're in the C-141, an aircraft that's now been retired, but it was leaky and we were losing pressurization. And we're just as a crew, we had no passengers, but we weren't going to be able to make our destination. What are we going to do? We can't stay here at the altitude, no place to really land. And it was the 19-year-old loadmaster He said, well, I got some athletic towels and the igloo of water back here. What if we just soaked the towels and stuck them against the pressure door? It's cold here at altitude and it'd freeze in place. There you go. Athletic towels, water, put them in place, stop the pressurization leak. We're able to make our destination. That was a resource. When we're in the front, we're the pilots, the officers, the academy grad, check, check, check, check, check. No, we went with the youngest person. He came up with a great solution. So that was the resources, that resource forcefulness over the resources that worked out great.
[00:17:53.030] - Ben Morley
And the same with companies, right? Bringing your whole team in, everybody gets, gets to talk about it. This is collaboration versus consensus. This is the problem. I want to collaborate with everybody on the floor, all the new people. I want to get different viewpoints, collaborate. We do not need consensus. You're still the leader, but I do want to hear your viewpoint before we move forward because this person might have saved us a million dollars an investment because we have found a simpler and better and easier way to solve the issue.
[00:18:21.360] - John S. Berry
So let's go back to the book really quick, Ben, because I know some of the stories are in there, but why did you choose Caterpillar Soup? Why, why, why was that the title? Why did you decide to, to write about this specific topic?
[00:18:34.240] - Ben Morley
I lived it. I, I was in it. It was very personable for me to I said, why? What am I doing? Why did I walk away? All my buddies are at the airlines. Swing a dead cat. You see a buddy of mine in the airport that's flying. I could have done that. It was an easy lead-in. Why did I go this route? But to know that wanting to solve problems and work with companies in the business sector was really something I felt pulled to, but just I did not have language from what the next series or the next chapter would be. The lily pad was not there to jump to. That doesn't take faith, does it, if you know what it's exactly going to be? And so walking through that transition and then finding others that I had— I didn't have a language for it, but putting this together and other people resonating with it as well too. And so taking that next step, whether it's going through Ranger School or becoming a brigade commander, whatever the case may be, I can feel that imposter syndrome sneaking in at every turn. But to go, here's the next step.
[00:19:37.540] - Ben Morley
And then to finally get that metaphorical handhold on the wall to go, oh my goodness, what I just did with that client solved problems. Okay, well, maybe I'm on to something. And then you go to the next one and then to the next one. And now it's building momentum. And then that identity starts to formulate coming through it in that new improved version of myself. So that's what led to— and obviously with that, the biological caterpillar soup, That was it. And it was the greatest transformation. And so that was what led me to, to write this book.
[00:20:09.140] - John S. Berry
Yeah. And I think, I, I think it's amazing. And I will, I will, but I will push back on that. You know, when you, when you get a position in the military, right, generally you have to have that, that, that PME, that Professional Military Education. You have to have the preceding job. Like, you know, to become a company commander, you don't just, you know, go immediately, right? You have to be a platoon leader. And then usually an executive officer, then you have to go through what we called the Captain's Career Course. There were all these educational pieces that you needed to get to the next promotion and then to the next command position. And so I never thought of it as an imposter syndrome because it's like, well, man, I checked the boxes to get here. There's no question. But then you go in the civilian world and you're meeting people who are running 9-figure companies who dropped out of college, you know, some of them who, you know, barely finished high school because they started companies when they were young. And it's just like, and some of these kids, quite frankly, they got into tech and they figured out what they wanted to do, but there was no path.
[00:21:06.190] - John S. Berry
There was no, you have to do these things. They're like, no, I'm just going to do it. And it's, so it is interesting. Yeah. You get out of the military and it's, there is no like, uh, uh, branch manager for your branch of services telling you what you need to do. To go out and consult with Fortune 500 companies. They don't tell you what you need to do. There are no real qualifications. The only qualification is can you provide value? Right?
[00:21:32.000] - Ben Morley
That's it.
[00:21:32.480] - John S. Berry
And so it is like, okay, well, am I qualified to do this? Well, somebody— if someone writes the check, apparently you are.
[00:21:39.320] - Ben Morley
That— you're exactly right. And we can look at them and hear their stories and we read their stories. And that's fantastic. That's not me. We think to ourselves, right? How could I ever, right? Well, they started when they're 19 or 20, and I'm not that anymore. So, and we can talk ourselves out of it. But dormancy is muted presence, right? So the skill sets that we have as Veterans are sometimes we can talk ourselves out of it. The dormancy is a muted presence. It's there. And we see this through these tech kids and they live that life like we're entrepreneurial. This might work, this might not. And if it doesn't, they're more of a hummingbird than a woodpecker, if you will. They'll try this, they'll try that. They know one or two of these won't hit, right? But this one will. And so they'll go with that and they become successful. It's this different aspect and different framing than what we grew up with in the military. So a volcano might be dormant, but it is not absent. And same as the skill sets with us as a Veteran, we have those. We just don't think that it can translate across this We think it's this huge gap that we'll never catch up with.
[00:22:44.670] - Ben Morley
No, no, no, no, we do have it. And to have that language, you get our sea legs, if you will, that, well, okay, my goodness, what I taught this class, right here. I was in Dallas. That was with that client, right? Hands sweating. What am I doing? All this stuff. I'm working and I had different groups of managers. So I teach and then they work on their projects, teach and work on their project. And I'm working with one group and they found a $64,000 savings in 30 minutes. And that they were trying to— they were working on something. This was just a little Easter egg along the path. And they're looking at me and I'm looking at them. I'm like, I guess this— I could have gone back to the hotel. They didn't need me there. So it did work. And that was that. That was that aha moment. And so now they've caught up now, that momentum, right? Rather than giving them a fish, it's teaching them how to fish. So now they're taking the tools and now— and it just, it rose all of them. Momentum moved for that company. It was, it was just gorgeous and fantastic.
[00:23:44.400] - Ben Morley
That was the win that I needed. They saw it and oh my goodness, I guess it can work here too.
[00:23:49.780] - John S. Berry
And that is the key. It's results-oriented. Here's what I've noticed about results, especially in the consulting world, is I may have the right answer and I'm taking it to my team. And even though I may think that I'm doing a decent job as a leader, I can't convince them to make the change. And it's like, oh my God, I'm just a bad leader. I'm not influential enough. I'm getting too much resistance. And there's this almost toxic followership behind, or people are dragging their feet. Then you bring in the white coat, right? And a white coat is basically the expert, right? There's someone who is outside the organization who comes in, who basically says the same thing you've been trying to get. But the white coat comes in and all of a sudden, the lights turn on and everybody gets it. And it's amazing. So sometimes you might not even bring a new idea in. And it's like, but you're the catalyst. You come in and you provide a different perspective. I think that's why there's so many business books that if you read them over and over again, you know, it's like, uh, I think the quote's from the Bible, but Hemingway said it, you know, uh, there's nothing new under the sun.
[00:24:45.300] - John S. Berry
Right, right, right. You know, uh, and, and, and I think that, that there really is, there's, there's nothing new under the sun. Uh, it's all the same, but it's how you package it. And sometimes it's not the message, but the messenger and being able to connect and, and, and provide that idea because a lot of the concepts you'll find you're familiar with, you understand it, but it's like, but there's just like one missing piece to make it happen. And if you can come in as a consultant and be that catalyst, just give that one missing piece, whether it's wearing the white coat so they know that, okay, it's not just John, we got a real expert here who's telling us we need to do this, whatever it is, when it works, I mean, it just, it just takes organizations to the next level. So I'd ask you this, where do you find that magic? Where do you find where it is like, okay, this organization is stuck. They've obviously got this idea, why aren't they executing on it? And how do I help? Walk us through that process.
[00:25:35.530] - Ben Morley
I think you're exactly right on so much of that. And that's, as we go forward on that, that's the power that a Veteran can bring into it because you're bringing this different perspective that maybe they haven't heard this way, right? So that their leaders are talking in French, but they're listening in Dutch, right? So for us to come in and be able to go, oh, I get the language. I get that with what with your leadership and what we've learned as a leader is to pause, wait, listen. What do I, what's going on here that's been missed maybe by somebody else, right? How are these people communicating? Am I speaking in a way that they understand, right? Am I talking down to them? Am I including them in? Is this, is it a rut? Is it the same thing that they heard last week and the last quarter and the last month? And I think by engaging the people and asking the questions, I'll start to find out where it's the same rote message that's been coming from their leadership. And the leadership maybe respectfully has that blind spot. And they just think, if I keep hammering on it, they're eventually going to get it.
[00:26:42.580] - Ben Morley
Well, they haven't. Right? And so to come in, and that's that leadership, the leadership that we can to connect with the 19-year-old right? Even though we outrank by— it doesn't matter on the rank. I connect with them and find out where the pain point is. And it's more of an art than a science. Just like you said, the business books are, if you do A and B, then you're going to get C. Not necessarily. Not necessarily.
[00:27:04.710] - John S. Berry
Why?
[00:27:05.690] - Ben Morley
I'm not invalidating that there's a situation going on here, but why aren't these people moving with it? Right? And so if I get down and if I'm on their level, if I'm in the workspace and I'm finding out, that's where the hidden workspace is. As I'm starting to speak more with the folks on the floor, if you will. And they'll start sharing things that I didn't hear up in the boardroom. And that's where I can start getting different perspectives and analysis that I can now go upstairs and then speak with the executives and go, this is probably why it hasn't been taken root for this reason and this reason. And then, so now it's kind of group therapy, right? So we're listening for the folks on the floor, but I'm also going upstairs and now teaching them and going, here's why this hasn't taken place. Here's what I can do to help you out with it moving forward.
[00:27:49.540] - John S. Berry
Yeah. And I think that, you know, the problem compounds in a remote environment, right? So the management by walking around, right, where you could stop by, figure out what's going on, that's like not as, you know, when half your team's remote, you can't do that. And then so how do you do it? Well, do you send an email? And I found you send an email and then people, you know, they don't get the tone, they don't get whatever. And you say, well, why don't you pick up the phone? A lot of times, well, in a remote organization, if someone else, if someone's on the phone doing something, the last thing I want to do, right, is bother them. So it's like, it's very difficult because I think, well, I'll send them an email that way they can get to it when they get to it. I'm just checking in. Hey, what's going on with this? But a lot of people, they see that email, right, from the boss. They're like, oh, like something's going on. It's like, no, I'm just trying to, you know, manage my walk around. But I just didn't want to walk all the way to Texas today.
[00:28:36.190] - John S. Berry
Right. I mean, you know, it's, it's one of those things. So I found that that is, that is a challenge. So I, what you're saying about, hey, getting on the ground level and figuring it out because the leader, Same thing when the commander shows up, right? Soldiers don't act the same way when the commander's not there. And so they're not going to give the commander the answer that the commander needs to hear. They're going to give the commander the answer that they think the commander wants to hear. And that's a difficult, difficult piece. And so once again, bringing in consultants or people who can get on the ground and hear what's actually being said can make a big, big difference in that message that you've been trying to give to the team for years and for some reason it's just not landing. So that takes us to the after-action review. Let's hear your examples of great leadership and horrible leadership.
[00:29:22.130] - Ben Morley
Great leadership has been modeled by a general who came in theater and was walking around, but he was aware of the layers of lieutenant colonels and majors and captains and first lieutenants that would filter messages before they got to him. And so to get that fidelity, He walked around but was very intentional on speaking with the individual and not, you know, sometimes they speak to you, but it's more for the camera, right? And they're kind of looking over your shoulders. They're like, yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh. You can tell they're not listening. But he was listening. And he pulled up a chair and he sat with one of my buddies who was a pilot and asked how things were going. And my pilot friend is out of Texas and he's a straight shooter and he was respectful to the general, but he told him how the cow cut the cabbage and told him exactly how things were going. Much to the chagrin of some of the lieutenant colonels and majors who wanted to move the general. That general contacted my buddy the next month and offered him a job on his staff because of the fidelity of the message that was coming up from him, that he could truly be told what the issue was, not what he wanted to hear.
[00:30:32.240] - Ben Morley
That was a great example of leadership for that general, to be able to put the stars aside, to put— and, and to connect in a way that the message is there and not shoot the messenger, if you will, right? And to be able to take something in that maybe he didn't want to hear that was going on and be able to address it. I think poor leadership was part of the impetus on what led me to leave the military with a— I choose my words carefully— who was more wrapped up in his rank as a colonel on positions and status and do as I say, not as I do. And there's a difference between values and culture, right? Values are belief. Culture is your behavior, right? Values is what we have up on the walls and the posters and on the website. That's all fine. But culture is your behavior. Was the flight attendant rude? Was the food cold? Did the waitress really service? It doesn't matter what you have on the sign outside if it's not emulated through your culture. And this was a person who was, uh, had dissonance with that. And I had made my home in my approval and support from this person.
[00:31:41.600] - Ben Morley
You always want to get the accolades from your boss, and I was one of his 3 direct reports as a wing commander, basically the CEO of the organization. But when you make your home in other people's acceptance of you, you give them the power to make you homeless. And so it was through recognizing that, through my self-awareness, that I had to step away from from toxic leadership, from how he was running the organization. And it reflected through the other groups and agencies as well, too. So is this a person looking to make a difference or are they looking to tread water? The one mistake Air Force, if you will, right? Don't screw up, move up, that sort of stuff. And unfortunately, that was going on in this case. And it was— it was time for me to make a change.
[00:32:24.990] - John S. Berry
Wow. That is a brilliant insight. Yes. When you put your value right and it is housed in the opinions of other people, then yes, you run the risk of becoming homeless. Beautiful. So, Ben Morley, where can Veterans learn more about you and where can they get a copy of your book, Caterpillar Soup?
[00:32:45.920] - Ben Morley
You can find out more about me at my website, BenMorley.com, B-E-N-M-O-R-L-E-Y.com, or on LinkedIn under Ben Morley. And that's where I share my coaching and the work I do with executives and Veteran business owners. The book will be released this month in May. Through Game Changer Publishing, and you'll be able to find a copy of it on Amazon.
[00:33:09.360] - John S. Berry
Outstanding. And one lesson I learned, you say on Amazon or wherever fine books are sold.
[00:33:14.580] - Ben Morley
Or wherever fine books are sold. On Amazon or wherever fine books are sold, you will find my book.
[00:33:21.070] - Ben Morley
Outstanding.
[00:33:21.550] - John S. Berry
Thank you so much for your time and your leadership, Ben.
[00:33:23.980] - Ben Morley
Thank you very much for having me, John. It's been a pleasure.
[00:33:31.670] - John S. Berry
Thank you for joining us today on Veteran Led, where we seek to help Veterans build an even bigger, better future after military service. Unfortunately, for some of our Veterans, the roadblock to a better future is that they are not receiving all of the benefits that they earned. If you need help appealing a VA disability decision, contact Berry Law.