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What if you could get more of what you want in life? But not through pushing, forcing, or pressure.
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And Kate Northrup, Bestselling Author of Money: A Love Story and Do Less and host of Plenty, is here to help you expand your capacity to receive all of the best.
As a Money Empowerment OG who’s been at it for nearly 2 decades, Kate’s the abundance-oriented best friend you may not even know you’ve always needed.
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I think that as people pleasers, as women, there's all these myths around setting boundaries that, like, you have to caustic and mean and Yes.
Kate Northrup:Like, right? Like, you're gonna be a bitch if Yep. You are setting boundaries. Yep. And that's
Terri Cole:just a myth. Right. It shows how deep the indoctrination goes Yes. Of, like, what is a good woman?
Kate Northrup:Welcome to Plenty. I'm your host, Kate Northrup, and together, we are going on a journey to help you have an incredible relationship with money, time, and energy, and to have abundance on every possible level. Every week, we're gonna dive in with experts and insights to help you unlock a life of hunting. Let's go fill our cups.
Voice Over:Please note that the opinions and perspectives of the guests on the Plenty podcast are not necessarily reflective of the opinions and perspectives
Kate Northrup:licensed psychotherapist. She is a longtime friend of mine. She's the best selling author of Boundary Boss and has been featured places like People Magazine and the doctors. And today, we will help you identify if you need better boundaries. It is very likely that you do.
Kate Northrup:You'll also hear about how to know if you are a high functioning codependent, what to do about your daddy issues, and so much more. Enjoy the show. Terry Cole. Hi, Kate. Welcome to Plenty.
Terri Cole:Well, thanks.
Kate Northrup:Thanks for being here.
Terri Cole:I'm so excited.
Kate Northrup:We have a lot to cover today.
Terri Cole:We do.
Kate Northrup:We're talking about boundaries. We're talking about daddy issues. Yeah.
Terri Cole:We are.
Kate Northrup:We're talking about being a high functioning codependent, an over functioner. We're talking about a lot of things today. But I wanna start with a story, which is that no. No. No.
Kate Northrup:It's a good story that hits you in a very good light. You and I were walking down the street in New York City many, many years ago. This is, like, before I had kids, before I was married. It's a long time ago. And I was telling you a story about something going on with my mother, and you stopped me because I was upset with her.
Terri Cole:Mhmm.
Kate Northrup:And you were like you were like, oh, yeah. How dare she make you so uncomfortable as to have to, like, deny a request? Like so I was pissed off that she was making the request, and you were reflecting back to me that, actually, she was welcome to make any request she wanted. Sure. And it was on me that I was actually mad about my discomfort for holding a boundary.
Kate Northrup:Right. Do you remember that? You may not. Obviously, you and I have had 3,000,000 conversations.
Terri Cole:We have.
Kate Northrup:But I will never forget because it highlighted to me that I had boundary issues
Terri Cole:Mhmm.
Kate Northrup:And that they were showing up in me being mad at people requesting things from me and thinking it should be on them to not make the request instead of me needing to learn how to set a boundary, and that was a watershed moment for me. So I'm curious. Yeah. Like, that's, you know, that's one sign. Right?
Kate Northrup:I had one sign that I needed better boundaries, which is I am mad when people make requests of me that I don't want to do Mhmm. Because I do not wanna feel the discomfort of setting a boundary. Yep. Okay. What are other signs that people might have that they need better boundaries?
Terri Cole:I think what you're highlighting is probably the most common one, which is feeling resentment. Yeah. Feeling, anxious, feeling angry. And I think that in my twenties, I had a similar experience where I would look out and be like, if this person were just different, if my boss weren't a jerk, if my boyfriend weren't an idiot, if the it was all these other people, and it was like, oh, Betty's so entitled, When my therapist was like like, is Betty entitled, or are you serving yourself up on a silver platter, and now you're mad that that's what you're doing. And, again, I had a similar, realization.
Terri Cole:Her pointing out that, again, just like you were doing, I was being like, oh, hey, it's you. I was looking outside of myself, and she was like, hey, turn that mirror around and look in. So anyone watching, listening, who's like, I wonder, do I have boundary issues? You can do a quick resentment inventory. Because I promise you where you are not setting boundaries or boundaries you have set are being violated or a boundary is needed, maybe you haven't done it, but it's needed, you will feel resentment.
Terri Cole:Each and every one of us knows who we're resentful toward. Like, we know it. Right, whether we do anything about it or not. So if you write down, like, wow, I'm really resentful towards my sister, let's say, or towards someone I work with, then you have to look at it and go, why? What request is being made of me?
Terri Cole:What where are they stepping over my sort of invisible boundaries? Maybe you haven't said anything about it. And the empowerment that you felt in that watershed moment, and me too, is that it's not about them. When it's about the bad news is when we make it about other people, we really are in a victim position. Totally.
Terri Cole:We're like, I can't change. This is what they're doing. I don't know what to do. When we turn it around and go, oh, it's really about me telling the truth about what my limitations are. What what am I as I you know, your boundaries according to me are your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers, your nonnegotiables.
Terri Cole:And it's not enough to just know them. You have to know them and then have the ability to clearly and transparently communicate them, which, of course, therein lies the rub for most people. Right. Where you might e you might even know them, but being able to say, hey, mom. I'd like to make a simple request that you not do whatever the thing is.
Terri Cole:Or if she's asking you to do something you didn't wanna do, being able to just say, you know what? That doesn't work for me. Right. I don't have the bandwidth for that right now. And there's all these ways.
Terri Cole:I think that as people pleasers, as women, there's all these myths around setting boundaries that, like, you have to be caustic and mean and you're like right?
Kate Northrup:Like, you're gonna be a bitch if you are setting boundaries.
Terri Cole:Yep. And that's just a myth. Right. And it shows how deep the indoctrination goes of, like, what is a good woman? Right?
Terri Cole:Oh, that's you are pleasant. You are you are helpful. Accommodating. Accommodating. Compliant, really, is what we're talking about.
Terri Cole:But we all know in all the growth that we've done that that's not true. And that if we go by that model and we go through life pleasing other people, we will be very not pleased in our lives. It's not pleasing to the one doing all the pleasing. It is really nice. And then we end up really resentful.
Terri Cole:It's like a one way ticket to Bitterland because there's no other stops on that train. Sooner or later, if you self abandon over and over and over, we blame other people. We're so mad, but what ends up happening to our relationships? Because part of the process that I always try to tell my therapy clients, like having healthy boundaries is the bravest and the most loving thing that you can do in your relationships. Because when we say yes, when we really wanna say no, what we're doing is we're giving corrupted data to the people in our life about who we are.
Terri Cole:Yeah. And then I have women coming to me in their 6th 7th decade of life, being like, I did all the things. I did it all right. My kids went to Ivy League Schools. My husband and I have money.
Terri Cole:I volunteer, I go to soul cycle 3 times a week, like, I kinda like my spouse to like, they feel like they've done it all. And they're like, why do I feel so empty? And I'm like, because you built your entire life, checking boxes that somebody else constructed. Right. Taking one for the team over and over again.
Terri Cole:People don't know who you are. Yeah. And it is really, really an unsatisfying life to not be known. It's so painful. Yeah.
Terri Cole:So painful, and it's so avoidable.
Kate Northrup:It's so avoidable. Yeah. So you spoke a little bit about how you had a moment like I did, and probably many moments as today. Where you realize, like, oh, it's not about the other people. It's about, you know, it has to start with me.
Kate Northrup:What was it? Or what were the few things in your life that led you to knowing that you had a lot to say about boundaries and you really wanted to help other people with this? I mean, obviously, it was like having hundreds of therapy clients. Yes. But but how about, like, where was the seed of it for you in your blueprint?
Terri Cole:I think that, you know, we talk about that you teach what you most need to learn. And I feel like for me, I'm very smart, and I'm pretty crafty about figuring stuff out in life. And yet, this was completely news to me in therapy in my twenties, that I had I was like a boundary disaster. I did not I really did not honestly know that. I really thought my resentment was justified, so to speak.
Terri Cole:I really thought it was other people. I really did not understand what power I was giving up, like, meaning my own empowerment. And as that shifted in my own therapeutic process, and then I left my career as a talent agent, I became a psychotherapist. Suddenly, I was seeing it it was an epidemic. Every person, every and my practice was mostly women, powerful, competent, successful.
Terri Cole:Every single one who walked in, it didn't matter what their presenting problem was. I could just follow the dots backwards to this, that lack of knowing this incredibly important skill set. And I was like, oh, my God, Why don't we know this? And then we then you really look at the way that we are raised and socialized. Be a good girl.
Terri Cole:Turn that frown around. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Nobody is like, be authentic. Like, nobody is like, how do you really feel? They're like, just shut up.
Terri Cole:Do well in school. Be a good girl. Basically, at least that was I I mean, listen, maybe not the shut up part. But that was certainly the the messaging that I got personally. And then teaching this in 200 countries, basically women from 200 countries, there's not been one country where the person was like, Oh, my God, my family totally taught me about boundaries.
Terri Cole:Nobody, it doesn't matter. United Arab, Emirates, Spain, everywhere. Yeah. So it's the same. There's this expectation of women to be a particular way.
Terri Cole:And so for me, it was seeing it and realizing the difference in my life. I would never have achieved what I've done in my life. I would never have become who I've become in my life. If I did not cure that part of myself, that need to please others, that it's so you you will never do. It's like, having disordered boundaries and having high functioning codependency, which we'll also talk about.
Terri Cole:And I talk about it in the book that I just wrote this coming out in October, that it creates this glass ceiling of our own making, where there's only so far you're gonna go. Right? Because the amount of bandwidth that's required to continue to do that is bandwidth you can't use Yeah. To do the unique and amazing and interesting things that you're really
Kate Northrup:here to do. It's such a huge energy leak
Terri Cole:Yep.
Kate Northrup:Having poor boundaries. Yeah. Okay. Let's just start with high functioning codependency. Sure.
Kate Northrup:What is it?
Terri Cole:High functioning code well, let's just talk about codependency. And I'll tell you why I came up with this I I basically created this definition because in my therapy practice, it was all of these highly capable women. And if I would say, I think I would I would recognize this is codependent behavior. They'd be like, yeah, no, no, you're confused. Not me.
Terri Cole:They'd be like, lady, everyone, I'm making all the money. Everyone depends on me. I'm the savior for all the people. What are you taught? I don't depend on squat.
Terri Cole:And I'm like, oh my god. Nobody knows what codependency is. So I was like the the problem for me was that my clients couldn't see themselves in this definition. So then we couldn't do the work. Yeah.
Terri Cole:So as soon as I created this high functioning codependency, every person was like, oh, well, also, I'm a high
Kate Northrup:functioners like to be like, yes. I'm a high function.
Terri Cole:Nobody had a problem.
Kate Northrup:It's perfect.
Terri Cole:Yeah. Yeah. They were like, I'm the problem. It's me. Yeah.
Terri Cole:And there was truth in it, though. They could now see themselves. So let's just talk about high functioning codependency. It's when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the relationships, the circumstances of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace, maybe your financial well-being, your, spiritual, emotional well-being, physical well-being. Now, I say that because we are all lovers.
Terri Cole:We're mothers. We're the bridgers, we're the assuage of life. Like, we're the people who, you know, we're like the producers of life, like, we keep it together. So, of course, we're invested in the happiness of the people that we love. That's to be expected.
Terri Cole:But when you're a high functioning codependent, you're overly invested. You feel overly responsible for how the people in your life feel and what they're doing and the decisions they're making to the point where it's detrimental to your own ability to make your own decisions. The high functioning piece is that we make it look so effing easy that nobody thinks everyone's like, Kate's fine. Terry's fine. Right.
Terri Cole:You're the strong friend. Of course. She's always fine. No one thinks, really, like, to sort of check-in because when your whole thing is, I am fine. Being a high functioning codependent is that we've got this pulled together, exterior to and we are high functioning.
Terri Cole:Right. So nobody knows you're suffering. Right. And maybe seething. Like, we don't know.
Kate Northrup:It depends what's going on. Even know.
Terri Cole:Oh, most of my clients didn't know. Right. And then getting turned on to the fact that this is happening, the relief of being able to put it down of feeling like and and in my own experience, I mean, listen, again, you teach what you most need to learn. Like, why would I even come up with this? Obviously, I was super codependent with and not just dude, not just people I loved.
Terri Cole:I could be codependent with effing anybody. It could be anybody. My hairstylist, my postman, like, I would get overly involved.
Kate Northrup:Deeply invested.
Terri Cole:Deeply invested in all the people and all the things and all the relationships. And I mean, you know, I start the next book starts with a story of, basically, I'm on a train platform in Long Island. This is like 10 o'clock at night, and I used to go out to see my therapist. A normal person would find a new therapist. Instead, I would take a train, like literally an hour out in Long Island, and then walk a mile to her house like a psycho and then walk back.
Terri Cole:Anyway, so I'm on the train platform. It's, like, 10:0:5 at night, and I see this impractical. It makes zero sense.
Kate Northrup:Because they have therapists in New York. Yeah.
Terri Cole:But I was young. I was like, but I only like this one. Because I'm only going to this one.
Kate Northrup:Okay. Also, fair. I know. But she was really good.
Terri Cole:Stuff. That's really made no sense. But, anyway, I just think I was with her for 9 years. But, anyway, so I see this kid. He just got got a metal t shirt on.
Terri Cole:I'm like, who is this kid? And what is he doing here so late? He's probably 19. We get on the train. I started talking to him.
Terri Cole:I was like, where are you going? He's like, I'm going to Penn Station. I was like, what what are you doing here? It was because I knew it. I was like, this guy is not he's from Indiana or something.
Terri Cole:He's definitely not from here. And he said, oh, I was hired to drive a car. I was supposed to pick up a car, and then the gig got canceled. Oh.
Kate Northrup:I was
Terri Cole:like, oh, so what do you do? He's like, I'm just gonna sleep in Penn Station. I was like, no, you're not. I was like, you're not sleeping in Penn Station, dude. You'll die.
Terri Cole:This was like, keep in mind, the late eighties people. This was dangerous. And I was like, you're coming home with me.
Kate Northrup:No. Yes. You did not.
Terri Cole:I did too. Terry Cole. I did not even call my roommate. I literally show up with a total stranger. We lived in a studio apartment, by the way, on a 100 and second Street between West End and Riverside.
Terri Cole:Anyway, so, yeah, I mean, he wasn't a serial killer. Thank goodness. But I didn't know that, obviously. Woah. Yeah.
Terri Cole:And that's trust me. That's only one of many stories in the book. You'll have to wait till October 15th to get it.
Kate Northrup:But yeah. I can't wait. Yeah. I'm sure it's available for preorder, and it's called Too Much?
Terri Cole:It is.
Kate Northrup:Okay. Great. That'll that info will be in the show notes. Yeah. Wow.
Kate Northrup:Okay. So one of the things I loved in this book, Boundary Boss, is these three questions that you have. So when we find ourselves triggered. Yep. Now you're you were giving an example where you probably should have been triggered, but you weren't.
Kate Northrup:Seriously. So that's, like, one thing that can happen where, like, maybe other people around you would be, like
Terri Cole:What are you doing?
Kate Northrup:What are you doing? Why did you bring a stranger back to your studio apartment? Like, okay. That's a lot. That story is so good, but then on the other hand, we can have these scenarios where, like, I was triggered in that situation with being asked about something by my mother, which Yep.
Kate Northrup:That one's, like, maybe not a great example for this. Let's get let let me come up with an example. Okay. Yesterday Yeah. So yesterday, I decided to take my girls ice skating because that would be fun in Miami in May.
Kate Northrup:Yeah. Sure. So we go ice skating. I'm, like, late to the thing because this meeting went late. Pick up their little friend.
Kate Northrup:I get to the place, and then it turns out you have to fill out this, like, freaking 35 page registration form to be part of the parks and service. I mean, I was just so irritated, and I was irritated with the woman behind the glass, but I also knew this had nothing to do with her. Yep. And so I was, like, calm and kind. But inside, I was, like, so freaking triggered, and I wanted to just, like, throw my phone across the room.
Terri Cole:Yep.
Kate Northrup:So there are these three questions that you have in your book. And, of course, I can read them to you if you don't know what they are, but I think you know. Yeah. They're so brilliant. So, like, because in that moment, my response to the scenario was out of proportion Correct.
Kate Northrup:To the scenario, which I've done enough work to realize, like, this doesn't have to do with the Miami Beach Parks and Recreation department Correct. Though they could really improve their website. Yep. And this doesn't have to do with the sweet lady who is working at the ice arena. So what are those three questions?
Kate Northrup:So what
Terri Cole:you're talking about is when you find yourself having an amplified response. Yes. So I like to I don't really use the word triggered Great. Because I'm a therapist, so I use the word, activated. Activated.
Terri Cole:Okay. Because triggered implies there was, like, a traumatic event, and there might have been. There might have been. Right. But we don't know.
Terri Cole:And So let's just say activated. Activated.
Kate Northrup:Like, I was having yeah.
Terri Cole:You're having an amplified response Yeah. To stimuli that should not have been you're kinda like, why am I why why so big right now?
Kate Northrup:What's so big right now?
Terri Cole:Yeah. So we have 3 questions. So I call them the 3 cues for clarity, and you start with, who does this person remind me of? Where have I felt like this before? And how is this behavioral dynamic familiar to me?
Terri Cole:Yeah. So now I'll I'll give a different example because here's the thing. You gave an example where sometimes, like, a duck is just a duck. Sometimes, shit is just annoying. Right.
Terri Cole:Like, who knows? Irritating. Right? And you you might have found some some gem of, like, a previous experience. But let's just say you have, if you had a very punitive mother, and then you have a friend who's kind of judgy or you feel like gets withdrawn in anger about something, you might get very activated because of your past experience with your mother.
Terri Cole:If you ask these questions and you'd say, who does my friend remind me of right now? You'd be like, oh my god, my mother. Where have I felt like this before? When she was really mean to me when I was in 3rd grade and we had this experience and it's still painful to think about, how is this behavioral dynamic familiar to me? Because maybe if you have a punitive friend, you might be trying to get their approval.
Terri Cole:You might be trying to get them to not be mad at you in the way that you did as a child with your mother. Yeah. How does this help you to know? Well, part of the process, and I would have my clients say this to themselves, is like, Betty is not my mother. Right?
Terri Cole:It's getting really clear in the moment, in this moment, and it also leads us to an original injury or an earlier experience that might still need our attention. And so we can go back and go, you know, maybe I need to journal about that experience in 3rd grade, because why is Betty act when her she acts this way? Why is the little kid in me so activated and scared and hurt? That means there's something sticky still with that original injury that needs your attention. Yeah.
Terri Cole:So this is a very quick and easy way for anyone. And if you find yourself in any situation where you're sort of like in a repeated situation that you don't wanna be in. Right? It's the same thing with romantic relationships. I have a lot of clients who will be, like, in another relationship with someone who's unavailable.
Terri Cole:And, I mean, all you need to do is ask the 3 cues to go, oh, I had an emotionally unavailable parent. I am so love and available unavailability went like this Right. In my childhood. And now in adulthood and in my own psychotherapeutic process, it's my job to go, oh, these things don't have to go together. Right?
Terri Cole:So good.
Kate Northrup:I had a question come up the other day in, like, a q and a coaching call I was doing, and I told the person to go read your book and listen to this episode. So I'm gonna ask the question to you Great. For this person.
Terri Cole:Alright. Okay. Let's do it.
Kate Northrup:Because I I it come it comes up in my work, and I'm sure it comes up in your work indirectly as well.
Terri Cole:Yeah.
Kate Northrup:So, you know, I work with people around their money. Yep. So the question she had asked me is she was considering investing in one of our programs, which is, like, a higher investment level program. Mhmm. And she said, I cannot work up the courage to have a conversation with my husband Mhmm.
Kate Northrup:About this. Yep. And I don't know what to do about that. Okay. And I had a lot of thoughts about it, but I'm not a therapist.
Kate Northrup:And so I told her to read your book. But I was it was so interesting what comes up for people around money with boundaries and particularly around so, you know, I work with a lot of women. People of all genders are welcome in our programs, but it it is majority women. And, because of these old conditioned scripts Yeah. That we have from our own families and just from society in general Yeah.
Kate Northrup:We are still, as women, recovering from 1,000 of years of financial disempowerment.
Terri Cole:Yeah.
Kate Northrup:Hi. And we're like get credit cards till 1973. Because of how you do This is new. Yep. This and we're doing great.
Kate Northrup:Yeah. And also it's new. Yeah. So the this comes up a lot around, like, women feeling like they need to get permission Yep. From their husband to make an investment.
Kate Northrup:Yep. And they don't have the courage to have a direct conversation. Please speak on this.
Terri Cole:Well, first of all, I would immediately tell her to ask the 3 q's Great. Because I guarantee you because here's the thing with money. It's never just about dollars and cents. As you know, I don't need to tell you the money queen. But family systems in particular.
Terri Cole:We all have our own social norms. We have our own beliefs. We have our own values around money and what it means. Money is used to praise. Money is used to punish.
Terri Cole:Money is used for so many different things that I mean, in families that have money. Right? And then it means something else if you've really lived in scarcity. Right? So there's a whole combination of things.
Terri Cole:With this person, if she asked herself the 3 cues, who does my husband remind me of right now? Where have I felt like this before? How is this behavioral dynamic, the way we're interacting, how is it familiar to me? And then there's a 4th question that we sometimes ask if you if you don't get clarity on those first three. The 4th one is, when I'm in this dynamic, who do I become metaphorically?
Terri Cole:Who does my husband become metaphorically? So it could be, I become my mother. My husband becomes my father, and now we're playing out their dynamic around money. Right? But the fact that she is so afraid also speaks to something else too.
Terri Cole:Yeah. So the question is, what is the safety like in the relationship? Is it an emotionally safe place? Yeah. And then there's the reality.
Terri Cole:Does she have her own money? Has she made her own money? Do you have shared money? Like, there there's so much to that question, but I think that if she could get the psychological and emotional piece, get clarity there, the other things will be more clear. A 100%.
Terri Cole:And what what is your sense of worth? Do you believe that you deserve to invest in yourself? Because again, as women, it's hard. We see this running the types of businesses that we do, that it's always someone else needs something more than we do. We we're still, at least in my experience of 27 years as a psychotherapist, willing to take one for the team to be like, you know what?
Terri Cole:Maybe maybe I won't do this course this time around or this coaching this time around, because this person needs something else. And I think that prioritizing our own value, this comes with growth Yeah. And self esteem, and it's very indoctrinated to not. Yeah. So I feel like there's a whole bunch of things going on in that question.
Kate Northrup:So good, and it is so true what you said. When we start with the psychological, the emotional, the deep wiring, the unconscious behavior or subconscious behaviors that are playing out here or patterning
Terri Cole:Yep.
Kate Northrup:Then we can handle the logistics
Terri Cole:Correct.
Kate Northrup:Which is why, you know, I start with all of that stuff Yeah. Because you're not gonna get yourself a good financial system going if you're just playing out these unconscious patterns from your inner boundary blueprints from the original injuries of toilet. So you can handle that stuff with boundary bus. Yeah. You can.
Kate Northrup:And so what about I know certainly when I started actively leaning into setting boundaries, it was in my late twenties. It was deeply uncomfortable. Yep. And it made me feel like I was going to die. Yep.
Kate Northrup:And it was worth it. It was super worth it because now it doesn't feel that way anymore.
Terri Cole:Correct.
Kate Northrup:Still a little uncomfortable, but, like, that's okay. But what in those early, early times when it actually if you are a high functioning codependent, there is a degree to which it does feel like you are going to die Yep. If you tell somebody no or set a boundary, right, which is kind of the same thing, but slight variations.
Terri Cole:Yeah. What do you do with that discomfort? Well, expect it. So what I teach you in the courses and in the book and in the workbook is expect that there'll be pushback because we're gonna look at it this way. Our relationships are all dances as doctor Harriet Lerner talks about.
Terri Cole:So when you change your moves, the other person's gonna freaking notice. Yeah. They're gonna be like, wait a minute. You're supposed to do this. I do this.
Terri Cole:You do this. What are you doing? So they're going to a lot of people will feel threatened by your change. You feel threatened by it, which is why it feels like you're gonna die or feels like something really bad is gonna happen. And I I prepare people that this is called the in between.
Terri Cole:So this is a a part of our evolution where our old defense mechanisms no longer work because we know too much. So we really can't employ the denial and all the other crap that we were doing to get by with our crappy boundaries before. Our becoming a boundary boss takes time and repetition, so we're not necessarily there yet. So now we're in this space called the in between where we're like, thanks for taking away my protection, Terry. And I'm not here yet.
Terri Cole:So what do I do? Expect to be uncomfortable and realize being uncomfortable is not gonna kill you, and that your relationships are not that fragile. And if your relationship blows up because you set a boundary, that shit was absolutely predicated on yourself abandonment. A 100%. Like, if it can't exist because you set a boundary, if there's no ability to have a conversation.
Terri Cole:So part of it is realize that you are way more durable than you think. Yeah. And it's okay to be uncomfortable. I want you to change the way you relate to that. Because being uncomfortable means you're doing something new.
Terri Cole:You're stretching out of your comfort zone. You're removing that glass ceiling we talked about. And you will learn And I teach you in the book how to have the conversation. Like, you're not just gonna go in there and, like, blurt it out. I have a 4 step process where you know who you're talking to.
Terri Cole:You you plan it in a way that's like, oh, my partner is not a morning person. I'm not gonna dump this on them at 6 AM. Right? That wouldn't make sense. I'm going to visualize it going the way I want it to.
Terri Cole:And here's the thing, when I say that, I don't mean the person necessarily acquiescing or being like, good for you. I'm very excited. You're becoming a boundary boss. Right? They may not, they may not be excited at all that you're doing that.
Terri Cole:And that's okay. But it's you, we have to understand that our healing is in the asking, it's in the asserting, it doesn't matter. The other person might be like, for you, I'm not doing it. That's okay, too. Right?
Terri Cole:You then you decide once you have that information, you decide. Yeah. But our healing, like it's worth the effort Yeah. To assert yourself because this is how people know you. That's why when I talk about boundaries, I talk about preferences, desires, limits, and deal breakers, because
Kate Northrup:Right. That's a spectrum.
Terri Cole:Yes. That's a spectrum. Because not all boundaries are created equal. Right. Your deal breakers and your preferences are not the same things.
Terri Cole:Totally. But they all matter. Yeah. Because your preferences, your limits, your deal breakers, these things are not just your boundaries. These things are what make you, Kate, uniquely you.
Terri Cole:Right. So when we don't tell people our preferences, or we feel like having a preference means being a pain in the ass, right, where, again, we are limiting other people's ability to know us. Yeah. And that's such a shame. Yeah.
Terri Cole:Like you're really denying the people in your life, knowing intimately knowing who you are. And I feel like that's incredibly important where a lot of us have learned, like, I wanna be the easygoing chick going, going along to get along. But there's a cost. There is a cost to that, which is I wanna know your preference because we're friends and I love you and I care. It's it's not an imposition to me.
Terri Cole:I I want to know Right. Your preference. Do you
Kate Northrup:know what I mean? Totally. I do. And, I was with a girlfriend the other day, and, Mike loves babies. And so she was, like, futzing with her 15 month old, and Mike was like, give me the baby.
Kate Northrup:And so Mike took the baby and just was, like, playing with him somewhere else so this friend and I could have a conversation and without being distracted by the toddler. And she was like, is that, like, should I is he okay? Oh, yeah. And I was like, listen. Something you need to know about Mike, which she does know by now, but I was like, let me remind you.
Kate Northrup:Mike does not do shit he doesn't wanna do. Like, my husband is so clear, and everyone knows, like, if he's doing something, he's good.
Terri Cole:Yeah.
Kate Northrup:Like, he's not a pushover. He's and it at first, his directness was, like, really difficult for me because I come from a family that is not clear about boundaries.
Terri Cole:The most obtuse communication going.
Kate Northrup:The wasps are the worst. Yes. I know. Just you know, and just, like, very, like, okay, you know, And so at first, it was, like, really hard for me with his directness, and now it is such a blessing because in a scenario like that, I know a 100%. It's it's so kind because he always will say no, and if he's not saying no, it's a yes, and I don't have to be doing a dance about, like, well, is it okay?
Kate Northrup:Is it not okay? Yeah. Like, the energy saved.
Terri Cole:Yes. But that's such a great example. Because what it says about Mike, which we both know, is that he's emotionally trustworthy. Yes, he is. Because when you say yes, when you want to say no, you know what?
Terri Cole:You're not Emotionally trustworthy. Not. And everyone knows it. The people pleasers out there, right, where you think you're like doing this great job, your friends all know, they're all like, oh, I'll say to Vic, oh, you know, Betty said she's coming to the party. And he's
Kate Northrup:like She's not coming.
Terri Cole:So that's like 50% that should be here. I was like, about 45, probably. We know it. Right. We're like, she cannot tell the truth.
Terri Cole:She cannot say no. And so I don't count on that friend Right. Because I don't trust them. Right. And I it it's funny.
Terri Cole:In Boundary Boss, I tell a story about one of our mutual friends, Elizabeth Diato, where I was I was doing something with Deb Kern, actually, in, like I don't know.
Kate Northrup:Oh, yes. I love this stuff.
Terri Cole:Like Honduras. Guatemala. Guatemala. And I was like, hey, babe. I'm doing this thing with Deb Kern.
Terri Cole:Wanna come? It's in Guatemala and whatever. And she was like, nah, hate Guatemala and love Deb but hate hot weather or something like that. Not even a hesitation because she's another person who is emotionally trustworthy. She knows I'm not gonna what did I invent, Guatemala?
Terri Cole:I did not. Like, it's not personal to me. And I know what she does. She does willingly and lovingly. Yeah.
Terri Cole:And so she's a trustworthy person. So anyone listening, if you really identify as a people pleaser, and if you have a tendency to say yes when you'd really rather say no, I understand your struggle. I was you. I get it. No judgment, But people in your life know this about you.
Terri Cole:And, again, this is part of that glass ceiling
Kate Northrup:Mhmm.
Terri Cole:Because you cannot be a great leader. You will not be a super successful entrepreneur. You you can't do it. Yeah. You will not be super successful at anything.
Terri Cole:Because people pleasing keeps you in the middle, where to be a leader, we have to just tell the truth. And it doesn't mean we have to be caustic or mean. No. Just tell the truth.
Kate Northrup:Boundaries are actually really kind.
Terri Cole:Oh, my god. They're they are the bridges to the best relationships, not the blocks. They are the bridges to deeper intimacy to people actually knowing you Yeah. For who you are, which is so important. And if you go through your whole entire life pleasing others, I promise you, and you get to the end, that shit is gonna be very unsatisfying.
Terri Cole:A 100%. Yeah.
Kate Northrup:So we've talked about how boundaries come up in marriage, how they come up with, friends, for sure, Yep. Colleagues with money. And then one of the things that I know that you actually ended this book with is really talking about specifically your relationship with your dad and how our relationships with our parents can influence you know, we we've obviously talked about that ad nauseam here about how our relationships with our parents. But I'm curious with an a future body of work that you're working on around daddy issues, like, how has that shown up for you specifically with your boundary blueprint, your stuff with your dad, and why so that's question 1. Question 2 is, like, why are you doing a body of work about daddy issues?
Kate Northrup:Alright. So And then let's talk about mine.
Terri Cole:Yes, please. Yeah. Yes. Two friends, 2 daddy issues. We know it.
Terri Cole:So how does the father wound Yeah. Impact boundaries? Well, I had a father who had 4 daughters, and I was the youngest, And he really should have had one son because he was a brilliant athlete, went to college on a full ride, like, had no business having girls. He did not know what to do. So I was convinced from an early age.
Terri Cole:Well, when I was really little, I was like, probably 3. I was like, oh, he's gonna change his mind. So he would watch golf, and I would sit on his lap. He'd be drinking. It was probably 1 in the afternoon.
Terri Cole:He was drinking wine. He was like a martini madman drinking kinda guy. This was very sixties of him. But I would sit there watching golf, just being, like, any minute, he's gonna wake up and be like, you are the most amazing little girl in the world. Like so I did that for quite a while until it didn't happen.
Terri Cole:And, obviously, I wouldn't have a father issue if it did happen. But but the the not getting that and I remember talking to my therapist when I was in college, and I just I just couldn't give it up. I was like, Why couldn't I just have had a dad who wanted girls? Why couldn't I just have had a daddy's little girl? I was perfect for that.
Terri Cole:Everyone else loved me. My mother adored me. I mean, I was very lovable. I still am.
Kate Northrup:Still are, yeah.
Terri Cole:But do you
Kate Northrup:know what I mean?
Terri Cole:I was like, why not him, though? I couldn't get it. And she was like, Terry, listen. If you need your father's love to come in this particular warm and fuzzy package, you're basically gonna be slamming your head against this rock wall for the rest of your life. Like, it is not gonna be that.
Terri Cole:And then she gave me this amazing gift, and she said, let me ask you something. Is it possible for you to feel loved by the way that your father was capable of loving you? And I was like, well, I don't know. What was that? She was like, well, what did he do for you?
Terri Cole:I paid for college, bought me a used car, fixed my teeth. I didn't have to work during my undergraduate because he he supported me. Like, I had no loans from undergraduate, which I think is very privileged and very incredibly entitled. He says strap in when I pull away from his house, like, and those were the things I could come up with. And she was like, can you work on feeling loved?
Terri Cole:And I was like, I think I can. And that sort of shifted, but that was later in my therapeutic process. So that was sort of like in my late twenties where I sort of came to this experience. So I'd already sort of, by the time I tell the story in Boundary Boss about I was graduating from grad school, become a psychotherapist, and I say to my therapist, I'm not inviting my father to my NYU graduation. And she was like, how come?
Terri Cole:And I was like, because he won't come. He's he moved to Florida. He hates New York. He used to commute into the city. He's not gonna come.
Terri Cole:And she's like, okay. But that that's not the why. My question is, do you want him to come? I was like, I mean, yeah. Like, I'm incredibly proud.
Terri Cole:I put myself through grad school while I was still a talent agent. Like, this was this is really a feat, and I I really want him to be proud of me. Basically, it was what it was. And she was like, well, then you you should ask him. And I was like, I should ask him even though I know he's gonna say no.
Terri Cole:And she was like, Yeah, she's like terror. This is you asserting yourself. Your healing is in the asking. So I was going to visit him, and she's like, do it while you're down there. I'm like, oh, god.
Terri Cole:So I get there. I'm now now we're coming to the airport. Now, I didn't do it. It's 4 days into the trip. It was just me and him.
Terri Cole:He's driving me to the airport. I'm like, I cannot fail. I can't go back and tell Bev I didn't do it. So I was like, oh my god. We're in the car.
Terri Cole:I was like, dad? He's like, yeah. I was like, I have an extra ticket to my NYU graduation. I mean, it's okay if you can't come, literally.
Kate Northrup:He was like What a powerful act.
Terri Cole:Yeah. Amazing. Way to get the yes you're looking for. Yeah. And he was like, I really can't.
Terri Cole:I really can't, Tara. And I was like, it's okay. And he was like, oh, here comes the guilt. I was like, well, I haven't guilted you a day in my life, buddy. But I finally said, I was like, Dad, mom will be there.
Terri Cole:Kathy will have a 5 day old baby and be there my sister, which was true. And I said, but nobody is you. Yeah. You're my only father, and you matter. You're important to me.
Terri Cole:And he was like, okay. It was so incredibly awkward. I was like, great. So we get there, but this shifted our relationship. So what happened is we get to the airport.
Terri Cole:He hugs me, way longer than usual. Goodbye. And I get on the plane, and I'm bawling my eyes out because there was something that was so liberating to just tell him to just ask, like, you matter, right? Nobody. I have the best mother in the world, the most loving, the most incredible mother.
Terri Cole:I still have her. She's 86. Like, and but no one will replace that relationship, which I promise you, if I had not asked him to come and I was so happy he didn't come. My mother, my sister's like, who wants to deal? You're divorced.
Terri Cole:Like, oh, it was perfect. Yeah. He sent me beautiful gifts. It was lovely. We had 6 months.
Terri Cole:Suddenly, within this 6 months, I start getting like weird cards, like, Happy spring, love dad. I was like, What? The most emotionally shutdown dude on the planet with his little scratchy handwriting, it really shifted what happened. And it would turn out to be that that would be the last time I would ever see my father because he died of a massive coronary. And, like, I know I'm crying too.
Terri Cole:But how grateful. Like, he saw me. I saw him. I was able to say what I needed to say. And it was so healing for me.
Terri Cole:So the point of the whole story is that it wasn't about whether my father would come to my NYU graduation. It was the conversation and the shift in our relationship that happened happened because I had the courage to assert my desire for him to be there. I was admitting that I wanted it and also durable enough to tolerate him, not his limitation. He just couldn't do it, and that was okay.
Kate Northrup:Right. And so you both, on both sides, were able to assert a boundary. You were expressing a desire, which is a boundary. Yes. And he was expressing he could have a limitation, which is a boundary.
Terri Cole:It is.
Kate Northrup:And both of those boundaries coming together were able to create a really beautiful healing Yes. Even though you didn't get your desire. Right. You still got your need met. Correct.
Kate Northrup:And I think that's what's so powerful because we can really get stuck in these, like, 3 d linear realities of very transactional relationships where it's like, okay. If I ask for this and use these like, okay. If I ask for this and use these particular words Yes. I'm gonna get what I want. Yes.
Terri Cole:That is not true.
Kate Northrup:That is not being a boundary boss. It isn't.
Terri Cole:And here's the thing. I think there's a lot of misunderstandings and myths out there about people using like, they'll say things like, well, I I told my boyfriend that, you know, he needs to call me every hour when he's out with his friends. That's my boundary because I feel insecure. That's crazy. I was like, that's but that's not a boundary.
Terri Cole:That's control.
Kate Northrup:Yes.
Terri Cole:And people will mistake it and use it and abuse it Yeah. And say that is my boundary. And I'm like, it isn't though. No. That is control.
Terri Cole:You can make a request. Sure. Hey. Can you get in touch? Can you text me?
Terri Cole:I worry or whatever it is, but your worry is your side of the street. Yes. Not that does not mean the other person has to acquiesce to what it is that you're asking, and that is a lever of control. Yes. So I think we have to be very clear about our boundaries are us.
Terri Cole:Yeah. They have to do with us. And there's a good example that I I, have about the difference between. So I had a client who was like, she liked to go to bed early. Her partner likes to go to bed late.
Terri Cole:They live together. And she was like, you know, I he needs to go to bed earlier because he's he's exhausted, and he's not getting enough sleep. And I was like, okay. No. Well, let's not talk about his sleep needs.
Terri Cole:Let's talk about what you want. You want him
Kate Northrup:to go to bed with you.
Terri Cole:Yeah. She's like, I do. I was like, and he doesn't want him. No. I was like, okay.
Terri Cole:How about you compromise? See if you can flow to compromise. Yeah. And she's like, you maybe a couple of nights a week, you guys go
Kate Northrup:to bed. Instead of you go to
Terri Cole:bed at 9, he goes to bed at 12. You go to bed at 11 or whatever it is. She's like, he comes to bed. The reason is I'm so mad, when he comes to bed, he wakes me up. He turns on the light.
Terri Cole:I was like, why? Okay. I was like, so here's the thing. She has every right to make a simple request that he move his crap to the other bedroom, that he not turn on the light and not wake her up. Like, you have every right to negotiate for your need, to not be woken up at midnight when you went to bed at 9, and to ask for that consideration.
Terri Cole:That is a boundary request. And he has every right to go to bed whenever the hell he wants because he's a grown man. And you can make the request. And and, actually, what they ended up doing is just compromising 2 nights a week. They went to bed at 10:30, and it all worked out.
Terri Cole:Love it. But for her, I needed her to see the part that she was trying to control him for her reasons. I think he needs more sleep. He's 40. Like, his sleep is his problem.
Terri Cole:That's his side of the street. Absolutely. Him waking you up, though Is you. Correct. And that's where so the the that's the difference.
Kate Northrup:It's so good because it's so clean.
Terri Cole:Yes.
Kate Northrup:Now one of the last things I wanna ask you is, what about boundaries with ourselves? I think that it's it's common, and I see this in my work. And I've certainly experienced it with myself where, like, we want to change a behavior like staying up too late, scrolling on our phone, or eating in front of the television at night or, you know, these are just common examples. Right? And we say we're not going to Yep.
Kate Northrup:And then we find ourselves doing that anyway. How do we work on being better about boundaries with ourselves Yep. First?
Terri Cole:So those are called internal boundaries, and I will give you something you can put in your back pocket because it's called the secondary gain tool. I love this. Yes. So you're gonna ask yourself, because here's the thing. When we do behaviors that we say we don't wanna do, there is some kind of a hidden gain that we're getting.
Terri Cole:So if we can reveal what that is, the unobvious gain for staying stuck, we can then really take, steps to change it. So the questions are, what do I get to not face, not feel, or not experience by staying stuck here. So we'll give a great example. In the, during the pandemic, one of my clients was drinking. It was, like, wine therapy every night.
Terri Cole:And she would come in and be like, alright. I don't wanna drink during the week. I'm only gonna drink on the weekends. And then she would be like, can you I wanna be accountable to you. It was the whole thing.
Terri Cole:And I was like, okay. Fine. Well, it's, you know, a lot of people were drinking and weeding and doing all kinds of things more because the pandemic. Right? So she would always fail.
Terri Cole:By the time she'd get to me on my our Wednesday Zoom appointment, she'd be, like, literally made it to Monday. What is my problem? I think I have a drinking problem. And I was like, she didn't have a history. Like, my gut was like, no.
Terri Cole:This is circumstantial, and maybe there's more going on. I was like, alright. Let's explore this with the secondary game questions. I just flat out asked her, what do you get to not face, not feel, not experience by having wine therapy every night? And she just blurted out that my marriage is over.
Kate Northrup:Well, there you go.
Terri Cole:I guess we should be talking about that, though. How about we not? You're not an alcoholic. Right.
Kate Northrup:The wine's not the issue. The wine's the solution. Yes.
Terri Cole:Yeah. And so if we ask ourselves a good solution. Yes. No. But but it it it is the temporary solution.
Terri Cole:Right. Exactly. And it it is the symptom Right. Of the actual issue. Yeah.
Terri Cole:So let's say if people are eating in front of the TV at night, you know, you say, what do I get to not face, not feel non experience? The answer would probably be my feelings about something. A 100%. Because it's a numbing Right. Any numbing behaviors we're doing, we're sparing ourselves the discomfort of something.
Terri Cole:Yeah. And so it's give yourself a minute. Yeah. Journal about what would I be thinking about or feeling if I wasn't stuffing popcorn in my face. Right?
Terri Cole:Like, something will come up, but we have to intentionally go, I'm open to see it. I want to figure this out because it can be really frustrating Oh, yeah. To be self sabotaging Absolutely. In that way, but you're not crazy. You're self sabotaging for a reason.
Terri Cole:It is serving you Yeah. In this hidden way.
Kate Northrup:Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Terry, you are so wise. Thank you for all the ways you've helped me over the years.
Kate Northrup:Thank you for this incredible book. I can't wait to read the next 2. Yay. I'm, like, gonna be first in line. Too Much is the next one.
Kate Northrup:Yes. And then we we don't know what the next one is called, but it will be about the father wound. It will.
Terri Cole:And I have a father wound course
Kate Northrup:Amazing. As well. Okay. Great. So all of that is gonna be in the show notes.
Kate Northrup:Great. So, Terri, where can people find you to connect and dig in?
Terri Cole:I mean, mostly, Instagram is where I hang out the most. I'm just at terri cole.
Kate Northrup:Great.
Terri Cole:But I also With 2 r's. 2 r's. Terricole, and then go to terricole.com for all the all the things and all the happenings.
Kate Northrup:Okay. And you also have a podcast?
Terri Cole:I do. It's called The Terry Cole Show.
Kate Northrup:Very easy.
Terri Cole:I have over 6,000,000 downloads, and I've been doing it since 2015. Really? Yes. 600 episodes. Wow.
Terri Cole:And so many people don't even know because I never even talk about it.
Kate Northrup:See, that's why I prompted you.
Terri Cole:Yes. Thank you. Because I
Kate Northrup:knew you weren't gonna talk
Terri Cole:about it. I don't.
Kate Northrup:But when you're on a podcast, podcast listeners listen to podcasts. So you just, hot tip, you always wanna mention your podcast when you're on a podcast.
Terri Cole:Yes. And you've been to my podcast. Multiple times. That's right.
Kate Northrup:Look forward to the next time. Well, Terri, we're gonna for sure have you back Yay. Next time.
Terri Cole:We're gonna
Kate Northrup:talk more about the daddy issues because Woo hoo. We didn't we we we primed it We did. For the next time. I love it. I love you so much.
Terri Cole:Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me.
Kate Northrup:Thanks for listening to this episode of Plenty. If you enjoyed it, make sure you subscribe, leave a rating, leave a review. That's one of the best ways that you can ensure to spread the abundance of plenty with others. You can even text it to a friend and tell them to listen in. And if you want even more support to expand your abundance, head over to katenorthrup.comforward/breakthroughs where you can grab my free money breakthrough guide that details the biggest money breakthroughs from some of the top earning women I know, plus a mini lesson accompanying it with my own biggest money breakthroughs and a nervous system healing tool for you to expand your abundance.
Kate Northrup:Again, that's over at kate northrup.com.