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Information you need to live your best-recovered life. Join host Damon Frank as he brings you addiction recovery stories, news, expert perspectives, and features about life in sobriety and addiction recovery.
You're listening to the recovered life show. The show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And here is your host, Damon Frank.
Damon Frank:And welcome back to the recovered life show. Today is our special Saint Patrick's Day episode. So welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. We're gonna keep it green today and sober, and we're gonna dive into how to stay sober during saint Saint Patrick's Day and also have fun doing it.
Damon Frank:I'd like to welcome our guests to the show. First up, we've got Kevin O'Malley joining us. Kevin's not just any guest. He's got some serious chops in long term sobriety and is super active in 12 step groups. But that's not all.
Damon Frank:He's also the founder of Tech Talk Studio, Wiz in PR and Business Consulting. Welcome to the show, Kevin.
Kevin O'Malley:Thank you. Glad to be here.
Damon Frank:Glad to have you first time on the show, and welcome. You know, no discussion guys would be complete without some expert insight, and that's where Sean Ostendorf comes in. He's back with us today on the recovered live show. Sean's the brains behind heart and solutions, a therapy practice that's making waves in Waterloo, Iowa. Glad to have you back on the show, Sean.
Sean Ostendorf:Yeah. You bet. Thanks so much for having me again.
Damon Frank:Thank you for joining us. And, you know, to make sure, guys, Saint Patrick's Day is complete, we have got the sober spectacular Rachel Heckman joining us again on the show. Rachel is the magic behind sober in Central Park and an incredible alcohol free sober coach all the way from New York City. She's here to show us how to roll out the green carpet in style without the booze. Welcome to the show, Rachel.
Rachael Hechtman:Thanks so much for having me, and what an intro.
Damon Frank:You know what? I had to go fabulous today. And I wanna say, am I the only one wearing green?
Kevin O'Malley:No. I have green.
Damon Frank:You do have some green? Yeah. Okay. What's up what's up with these guys, first of all? What's up with the non green participation?
Damon Frank:Anyway, welcome to the show. So glad to have everybody. Look. The focus of this is getting through obviously sober, but also having some fun here. I'd like to open it up.
Damon Frank:You know, go to you, Kevin. You've got long term sobriety, and you have the most Irish name of anyone on the panel, Kevin Michael O'Malley. How how in the heck do you do it? How do you how do you stay sober if you're an alcoholic during Saint Patrick's Day, especially if you have a name like that?
Kevin O'Malley:Thanks, Damon. Yeah. I just had 35 years sober, and, and, you know, the way you do it is is you step back into the week. It's really important to remember, and this something that I always talk about in AA and anywhere in my corporate work. It's always about the we.
Kevin O'Malley:All 12 steps in AA and all other 12 step programs are always in the plural form. It's always about we. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives have become unmanageable. That's the first step in AA. So the way you do it is not be alone.
Kevin O'Malley:The way you do it is is for me, I used to go to the bars in north and San I gots my whole rise and fall as an alcoholic was in North Beach in San Francisco. And I would be in the bars and I would be be it would be like the anti cheers. I'd be there. I'd walk in. My my best friend was the head bartender at a little bar called Speck's in North Beach, and his name was Kent McCarthy.
Kevin O'Malley:I'm Kevin O'Malley. I'd walk in. So O'Malley is swine, and I would call him Pagliacci because of the tears of the clown. And we would, you know, and we drink and we'd be together and and, you know, I mean, he ended up he ended up dying after I got sober. I was so you're you're sober.
Kevin O'Malley:He was found dead in a hotel room of a heroin overdose while his wife and kids were at home on Christmas Eve. So that the the reality is we do it together. We do it. We step into we step out of the me. I step out of the Kevin Michael O'Malley boy genius from North Beach and into the we of Alcoholics Anonymous, and I become part of the group.
Kevin O'Malley:I think it's really important that you find places to be with other people. If you're in AA, you go to Alkathons, you you step up your meetings. If there's nothing going on, you create something. And this is a a really important part point that I wanted to make. I was talking about this with my wife this morning.
Kevin O'Malley:My wife is 37 years sober. We actually met in AA and we both were kind of co sponsors for Damon when he was brand new 30 years ago. But you if you don't have a place to go, create a place. And, my very my very first, year, I was I was about I was a year and 2 months sober, and I had gone to a Celtic group in, an AA group in the inner Richmond in San Francisco where all the Irish bars are. That's where I used to go to drink and be Kevin Michael O'Malley, get free drinks and charm girls and everything with that and, dance on bars.
Kevin O'Malley:And and, I went to an AA meeting there called the Celtic Group. And I went there and I met a guy. My name is Kevin Michael O'Malley. His name is Kevin Michael Sullivan, and he had 6 months less than me. Our 1st year, we're he put a party on, and it was only it ended up only being he he and I and his daughter, Aislinn.
Kevin O'Malley:And we had the best time, and we would continue that tradition of having a Saint Patrick's Day party. And it was a silver party with silver beverages. You can you create your own fun. It goes all the way back to Bill and Bob in 1935 in in, Akron, Ohio. They had a basis from the, the Oxford Group, but they created their own thing.
Kevin O'Malley:And you have to be willing to create your own fun and not rely but go to Alkathon, the meetings, but create your own fun.
Damon Frank:I like the we aspect of that, Kevin, because I think it's I think it's super important because one of the things that we know about addiction is it's lonely. Right? There's a lot of loneliness in addiction. And it's it's it's it's difficult, especially if you're newly sober to kind of plug in and to create that week. You know, Sean, I wanna go to you and ask you a question about this whole idea of triggers and holidays.
Damon Frank:You know, I know for me, Saint Patrick's Day, I I was a couple blocks away from Kevin. And while he was sober actively drinking ex pecs right? So at that bar so, you know, it's there's so many triggers around holidays. How do you start to identify that you're getting triggered and could relapse or end up drinking, you know, during during the holiday during a holiday event like this.
Sean Ostendorf:Yeah. Real quick. Just to to expand on on your guys' conversation. You know, a lot of times to the connection, what do we become connected to? Typically our substance, our substance of choice, and to shift, over, right, and and lose that with people.
Sean Ostendorf:And and really, we can look the basic building block of human condition is connection. Right, and it's it is to be connected in one way or another, one form or another. And so I love this idea of we and I think this comes into play too to answer your question. Damon is is, collectively. Right?
Sean Ostendorf:Can we have the conversations and start get getting, some dialogue around? What does that look like, sound, might, feel like? Allow ourselves the time and the space, right, to look back internally, to say, what are those things? Where do I feel that at? Can I check into my body?
Sean Ostendorf:Mindfulness is something that's becoming very much more popular. I spent time in in Southeast Asia. It was a lot more prevalent there, when I was living off in the Far East and Southeast Asia. It's coming more popular here. Can I check into myself in the present moment?
Sean Ostendorf:What am I feeling? What am I thinking? Can I interact with my feelings, in a way that tells me, this is information? It allows me to know how can I interact with my environment? That's a really healthy way, for us to to maybe pull away from the fear or man, I don't know about y'all.
Sean Ostendorf:How many times, right, have we felt something really difficult, and and we're gonna just run away from it as quickly as we can. Run to the bottle. Right? Run, to the substance. Even other forms, of unhealthy coping and sex and gambling and spending, right, in that regard.
Sean Ostendorf:And so I think really it starts with, can we slow it down, Right? And really check-in with ourselves. We is a great way to do that. Can we start to have conversations with other people, that are maybe experiencing it in the same way? And or coming to the therapy office.
Sean Ostendorf:Right? That's certainly something, that that we'll talk about, in that regard and checking in with the body, checking in with the mind. What are those thoughts? What are those triggers? How am I interacting with this environment?
Sean Ostendorf:Right? And how does it make me feel? And then I can make a informed decision, without letting it control us.
Damon Frank:You know, I I I love that. I love how you're focusing on the mindfulness of it all because it seems to me you know, we talk about this in a lot on the Red Covered Life Show that when people relapse, after you kinda dissect that, it really is they're in the future or they're in the past. They're never really in the moment. You know, in the moment, typically, everything is okay. But what are some strategies, Sean, if you find yourself future tripping, you know, in regret, Jerry, because holidays do this.
Damon Frank:They trigger things for people where they'll have regret or they'll have, resentments. How do you pull yourself back into the present?
Sean Ostendorf:You know? And that and that's meditation 101. Right? Our mind's gonna wander. Right?
Sean Ostendorf:And it's not about our mind wandering. It's about coming back to our mechanism, coming back, to that present moment. Depression lies in the past. Anxiety lies in the future, mindfulness lies in the present. Right?
Sean Ostendorf:And can we find ourselves in in a space where we, like you identified, can be present focused because maybe the present isn't as bad as we're making it out to be when we look at the polls. I think first and foremost, right, the preparation of that. Right? Can we identify those triggers, beforehand? Can we have those conversations where it becomes more prevalent and more present focused, to allow us to identify them?
Sean Ostendorf:I think that's 1st and foremost. What are some things that might come up? What are some things, that could be very difficult? What are some things utilizing the past and the future in a way that helps us, encourages us, right, and and and and and having, again, those conversations to go back to the we pieces. Those are things that we'll certainly have in the therapy room, but can certainly happen in other, way, shapes, and forms as well.
Sean Ostendorf:I think the preparation piece is certainly there. You know, things like you know, gosh. When I was, first, really wanting to shift in into more of a healthy lifestyle, I have a rubber band, that would snap me back into it. Right? I would flip the rubber band when I started feeling that type of way because I knew I needed to shift out of it.
Sean Ostendorf:I needed to run out of there. I couldn't stay in there. A lot of times I would maybe, oh, I can do it. I'd have that pride piece come into play. I don't know if any of you guys have have interacted with that or not.
Sean Ostendorf:And for me, I needed to snap back into reality. And so there's, of course, unique ways that that can allow us, once we do identify what are those things that are gonna be triggering? What are those conversations? What are those environments, that can potentially put us in a, just a already potentially untoward situation, where where we need to get out of here.
Damon Frank:You know, Rachel, I I wanna pivot to you real quick because one of the things that was huge with Saint Patrick's Day for me was I got sober in my mid twenties. So it was like, okay. Well, that's it. My life's over. I I actually like Saint Patrick's Day, although I'm not Irish at all.
Damon Frank:I loved it. And and getting sober in San Francisco and drinking in San Francisco, that was a huge community, of you know, it was a very, very big deal as it is in New York. I thought that's it, man. My life is over. I'm never really gonna have fun again.
Damon Frank:And I have to be honest, it's a Saint Patrick's Day was a struggle for many years for me. How do you go about recreating that day and unpinning alcohol from it?
Rachael Hechtman:Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, though, I wanna address is my first time when I was sober going through Saint Patrick's Day. I did not go out. I didn't go and celebrate the holiday. I kinda I stayed in and I hibernated, and I really just took care of myself because I think when you're really early on in your recovery, don't tempt yourself.
Rachael Hechtman:Don't go out and be somewhere where there's alcohol. Don't try to do the things you used to do in the past because if you only have a few months under your belt, that's like playing with fire, especially for a holiday that centers around alcohol. So my biggest advice is if you only have a few months of sobriety, do not go and try to go to the party. Don't try to go to the bar. Take this day as a day to maybe do some self care, to maybe do something just to, like, fill your cup up.
Rachael Hechtman:So that's just the first thing I want to say. But after that, once you feel like you can be around maybe alcohol or the party, I think it's okay to go and try to explore and and maybe meet new people, but I I don't know how I feel about necessarily going and sitting in a dark dive bar, which is what I used to do here in New York City. Maybe I'll find, like, a fun outdoor activity where I can meet people, and it's not centered around drinking. But I think, you know, there's so many other things that we can do, and this holiday isn't just about alcohol. Right?
Rachael Hechtman:So maybe we can go and watch the parade, you know, be there in person and watch a parade. Maybe we can go and move our bodies and step out of our comfort zone in a way that we don't usually do. So I think there's ways that we can still enjoy, you know, Saint Patrick's Day and holidays that really do center around alcohol without having to literally be around the alcohol.
Damon Frank:Well, I know one of the things for me that kind of replaced, and I'm sure it's not super healthy, was the food. Like, I love eating. So corned beef and cabbage is always fun, and it's kind of a tradition. And as long as I don't go overboard, I I go with that. But I I love what you're saying, Rachel, about creating these new experiences.
Damon Frank:Right? I I'd like to open it up here, you know, to all of you about this whole idea of creating these new experiences during Saint Patrick's Day and also knowing when maybe you're a little bit too much in front of your skis. Right? Like, you're a little you know, like Rachel's talking about tempting fate. I'm a big one on that.
Damon Frank:Like, don't put yourself in this situation. Right? Like, how how did you how did you all judge that or or with clients judge what's not safe and safe?
Kevin O'Malley:Well, I just tell you a story for me, about what not to do. So learning from learning from my experience of 35 being you know, we used to call it old timers. Now that now that I've been sober 35 years, we call it long timers. So, old timers doesn't work anymore. Long timers.
Kevin O'Malley:But but my very first year, I had been I had crashed and burned. I had been evicted from my apartment. I had been woke up in general hospital in San Francisco under restraints, out of my mind, severe alcohol withdrawal, acute amphetamine psychosis, great big bandage on my head. And, and, you know, I I went from there into a 28 day program at the hospital. From there, I moved into a halfway house.
Kevin O'Malley:I moved into the halfway house on March 16th, the day before Saint Patrick's Day. And and because I'm Kevin Michael O'Malley, I still went back to the bar on on Saint Patrick's Day. So I went back to my my home neighborhood in North Beach, my home bar, Speck's, with Kent Kent McCarthy, the bartender. And, you know, I went back to her just to show them how well I was doing. And I ended up meeting the girl, hanging out with her, having to take a cab back to the halfway house, outside making out with her, having to decide, do I blow it in this halfway house because this cute girl is here, or do I go in and choose my sobriety?
Kevin O'Malley:Because she was there from she was visiting from, I think from Saint Louis. And, you know, and I and I went in. I I said good night to her, and I went in. But that, you know, that's not the way to stay sober. That is not a good idea.
Kevin O'Malley:Going back to your old haunts to prove you're still sober. I'd go back to those bars in North Beach. Hey, Kevin. Are you still on the wagon? And and I would try to explain to them that I was in recovery.
Kevin O'Malley:But they didn't care. They didn't know it. But I think that I think what was said a few minutes ago about don't tempt fate. You don't have to go and prove anything. I wanted to prove to them how sober I was, and I wanted to not be missing it.
Kevin O'Malley:And, you know, I'm not missing anything. You know? And it and it says in the big book, we can go anywhere, if we have a reason to be there, even old fashioned whoopie parties. Now and and I don't even know exactly what a whoopie party is, but, but it's okay to go see music. It's okay.
Kevin O'Malley:But but take your time. There's no rush. And always have a backup plan. Always have a sponsor to call, friends to call, have money for a cab if you go with somebody else. Have an exit strategy.
Kevin O'Malley:That would be what I would say. Make sure that you you find fun things to do, but don't go back to bars right away. If there's music but don't go back to your old really rundown seedy place like I did. Go go to a nice happy place. Go outside and and enjoy it.
Kevin O'Malley:And have a have a therapist on call, have your sponsor on call, have your have both people with a lot of time that you can call and your own sober posse that are people who came in at the same time as you, as you're all in it together.
Rachael Hechtman:I love that. And I I just wanted to add something too from your conversation earlier of, like, when you're feeling maybe bad or, you know, regret from the past, what I tend to do is I try to go immediately to a place of gratitude because, you know, obviously, beating ourselves up about stuff we did in the past is not gonna do anything to the present. But instead of just sitting there, you know, I try to at least find things I'm grateful for in this moment and things that I'm grateful for that have changed since whatever I'm thinking about for the those regretful situations. And if that really still doesn't work, I get out and I just start walking and moving my body, and that always makes me feel better. Whether it's the endorphins or the movement, make it it helps me, like you said, with the rubber band, literally snap out of that state that I'm feeling.
Rachael Hechtman:So those are my 2 biggest pieces of advice too. If you're feeling any type of way, move the body and get do some gratitude.
Sean Ostendorf:We always do shift in the therapy room. How do I shift out of this piece? Whether it be even outside of the substance use. Right? And and if we're in those types of, head spaces, which of course those head spaces, right, that's a trigger, right, for us to to to maybe go back down those paths or or to enter into some, essence of unhealthy coping.
Sean Ostendorf:Right? Can I find a way to shift? If I tell you not to look at the dart board behind me, right, that you're gonna think about the dart board. If I if you tell you to leave the room, right, now we're able to shift out of it in a way that's gonna be maybe a lot more helpful, supportive, and encouraging to get out whatever headspace, trigger, urge. Right?
Sean Ostendorf:Damon to use that type of utilized earlier. Essentially, even right from my perspective, retraumatizing, right, allows us to get back into those spaces that it might foster something that's a memory. Right? And maybe there's a feeling. Maybe it's more bodily.
Sean Ostendorf:Right, that encourages us to wanna go back to something that we know that challenges our values, our morals, our character.
Damon Frank:Yeah. Ab absolutely, Sean. Absolutely. And, you know, and I think one of the things that has been mentioned here is the having of the plan. Like, each of you in different ways talk about this this bigger plan.
Damon Frank:And one of the things that I found that would get me into trouble, get me into situations where I shouldn't really be there was not having a firm plan. And I felt that I have this you know, I for whatever reason, have that guilt gene sometimes that we'd be put in. So if I made a commitment to do something, then I felt obligated to do it. So I love this, you know, creating this sober plan and then committing to that early. And then once I commit to that, I already it takes out the anxiety and this whole ADHD side of it of, like, well, now what am I gonna do?
Damon Frank:This impulse side. Right? If I already kinda know what the plan is, it's much easier for me to kinda live that plan out as opposed to making a bad decision based on impulse.
Rachael Hechtman:Always need a plan. And I, you know, I always tell people if you are in early sobriety and you are and you are going somewhere, what are you gonna say to people? What what is are you gonna say you just don't drink? You're not drinking right now? Like, have that nailed down.
Rachael Hechtman:What are you gonna say if they question you? Or where are you gonna go if you need to make a quick exit? Right? Like, did you drive there? Did you take an Uber?
Rachael Hechtman:How are you getting out? What are you gonna drink? 2, like, having that nailed down before you go, are you just sticking to water? Are you gonna have nonalcoholic beer? Are you gonna have seltzer?
Rachael Hechtman:Just, like, having that decided before you get somewhere so you don't have to have the anxiety, right, and the impulse decisions. That is so key. Like, what time are you gonna go home? Like, do you need to have an excuse so people don't try to drag you out to the bars if you're going to a house party? Like, having those things nailed down ahead of time can really, like, save you from places you don't wanna go.
Sean Ostendorf:And and we'll role play that, in in the in the therapy session in the office. Right? If we know this is something that's pertinent, it's coming up, It's something that's really important to us.
Damon Frank:We are talking about, like, making these plans and role playing and kind of doing all this other kind of stuff. Regarding making the commitment. Right? Like, I know there's a lot of people that listen to the recovered life show. Some people are they've already identified as an alcoholic.
Damon Frank:They've already said, look. I'm an alcoholic. I'm in recovery. It's a little bit more of a straight line. But there are people who maybe they have it.
Damon Frank:They're they're they're trying it out. They're gonna see, hey. You know, I'm kind of alcohol hasn't been great for me. I don't really know if I'm an alcoholic because it could be What I wanna ask you is I think that there's a lot of thinking that everybody's gonna be talking and thinking about us not drinking. And unless you put yourself in a situation like going to that dive bar, right, or going to that place where that was all about drinking, most people aren't thinking about you.
Damon Frank:And, Ed, you're in 35 years of recovery. Have you found that most people aren't thinking whether you're drinking or not at an event?
Kevin O'Malley:Oh, yeah. Definitely. And, I think you just, at a certain point, you have to all the things that were said, having a strategy. If you go to an AA meeting or you go on Amazon, there's a wonderful AA book called Living Sober, and you can get that book at any AA, meaning you can buy it on Amazon. It's actually tips about how to be at a party.
Kevin O'Malley:It's about tips, how to use AA. Have when you get there, as was mentioned, get a drink. Have your own drink ready. Have your excuse. Have and then just have fun.
Kevin O'Malley:You know, the the biggest thing is to not stress and to to just go there and and be, be a just be another person, not be the guy that's all that's really stressed out. But I would say the the most important thing is to relax, have fun, but don't let someone else give you a drink for sure. Have your own drink, have control your own space, have your exit plan, have your money for or or you're be ready for to take an Uber, be ready to go. But I would say that the most important thing is to remember that that nobody really cares. You know, you think you're the most important person at the event.
Kevin O'Malley:You're not. Nobody really cares. So just have fun. And, you know, really, that's that the biggest thing I can say, the way you stay the way you get sober is your life is really shit. It's no fun at all.
Kevin O'Malley:But the way you stay sober is by having fun. The way you stay sober is by it it says in the big book, we're not a glum lot. We absolutely insist on having fun, and we do. If you don't have fun, you're you're not gonna stay sober. But, you know, when I got sober, there were lots of AA events.
Kevin O'Malley:There were sober dances. There were all kinds of of parties that would go on, and they don't happen as much anymore. And and it's kind of awkward. I mean, go be being 6 months sober, go into a sober dance, and, you know, you don't know how to talk to girls when you're sober, and you don't know what to do. And well, but they're actually fun.
Kevin O'Malley:And and I would recommend if if you're if you're just looking am I sober? Am I not sober? Do I am I an alcoholic? Well, there are plenty of open AA meetings that you can go to just to start to learn about things. The the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.
Kevin O'Malley:There's no definition. It's not like getting booked in at the police station. You you just it's what you choose to do. So it and and really, you know, when when when you and I got sober, it was a lot of part I mean, we had to have a clear bottom. I had lots of blood, eviction, general hospital, out of my mind, under restraints.
Kevin O'Malley:You don't have to have that. When AA first started in 1935, it was all older men with very low bottoms lost everything. Later on, it changed. Later on, lots of young people come into AA now, very young, and and maybe never even drank that much at all. Mostly did drugs.
Kevin O'Malley:But but it really it doesn't have to be hardcore like the old days. You don't have to lose everything. You can it's a choice. So and we're very happy to have you at an AA meeting. If you're just trying to figure things out, just come to a meeting and say hello.
Kevin O'Malley:And that's you know, it's it's always open. It's always ready for at any level of your of what we call a bottom. If your bottom is is losing everything like I did hey. Come on in. If your bottom is well, I think maybe it's just a little too many a few too many beers at night, and I don't feel good the next day, or I don't like who I am.
Kevin O'Malley:That's fine too. Just just come. I mean, it's always like Rumi, you know, Rumi, the the Sufi poet says, come come whoever you are. And that's what AA is about.
Damon Frank:I love that. Guys, if anybody would like to join in here and really kinda discuss, you know, the also the mental health aspect of it, I love Kevin's pitch for 12 step groups, and I do think it's changed a lot. You know? I will tell you when I met Kevin, you know, he had 5 years sober. You know?
Damon Frank:I had no sobriety. It was much it was much of a harder place. You know, 12 step groups. They were it was much more you had to qualify a lot more. What I love about sobriety now is that just kind of like he said, it's much more open.
Damon Frank:Like, you it doesn't have to be the last stop on the last house on the block as they used to say. You could because a lot of people have a lot of different things going on. And sometimes alcoholism and drug addiction is part of it. Right, Sean? Other times, it's a mental health issue that's also kind of encompassing this whole thing as well in addition to addiction.
Sean Ostendorf:Yeah. Well, a great question, I'll ask. Is this causing a problem in your life, in some way, shape, or form? And if the answer is yes, then we need to make a change. And so whether we wanna say, I have dependence issues, I have addiction, right, all the labels, you know, if if you're answering if you're answering yes, to that problem, let's find a way to to implicate some change.
Sean Ostendorf:And from my perspective, again, I don't wanna over, you know, arching umbrella of this, is if you are coming in with some essence of a concern that's more externalized like a a a substance use, it's it's to me unhealthy coping. I guess from a trauma perspective, what happened to you that I am now utilizing this resource in a I'll call it a resource. Right? It's unhealthy. It's consequential.
Sean Ostendorf:It's problematic. And I I've 2 have been there in that regard. My life is so hard. It's so difficult. Right, that I'm going to choose this immediacy, right, and sacrifice that over things that provide me meaning and purpose in life.
Sean Ostendorf:Right? And and so, of course, want to make sure that we identify those things in the moment that can help us, right, to to quiet that, right, to find those healthier methods, the mindfulness piece we talked about earlier. But from my perspective, I wanna get underneath of that. Right? Uproot the weed, some degree if if that's a metaphor that works for you.
Sean Ostendorf:What happened? Why did we go, to substance use, to allow for some sense of purpose, meaning, and fulfillment, to get away? Maybe it's not even, it provides us meaning purpose and fulfillment, but it distracts us enough, from the things, that are hurting us, that the pain typically starts off mental and emotional. Right? And can certainly be be physical, as well.
Sean Ostendorf:And the more and more we we we cope from mental and emotional perspective, it will become physical. Right? And then it'll it'll really stretch the dependence piece. How do we get underneath of that? And that's the mental health and the emotional health perspective.
Sean Ostendorf:Victor Frankl, came up with Logos Therapy. Can we find meaning and purpose in our lives? And if we can do that, boy, can we, find a way to shift out, of needing, substances to exist, in the way that maybe they wants to have in our lives.
Damon Frank:I love that. I love that. I think utilizing everything that's available to you is so important, and that's why I wanted to kinda put together a panel like this. You know, I have to ask you, Rachel. You know, you've had a big shift.
Damon Frank:You're a very social person. You, you know, you if if there was anything going on that I wanna know about, I would call you. Right? Because you you know what's going on. You're very plugged in.
Damon Frank:Right? How was the shift for you into sobriety from the life that you had that was very alcohol and substance centric. And I know there's other things that you've shared on previous episodes about ADHD and dealing with that whole thing. How how has been the shift what have you noticed from the shift with your own perspective about now pursuing sobriety, going through things like Saint Patrick's Day?
Rachael Hechtman:I mean, I would say that I think back to old Saint Patrick's days before from the before days, and I don't even remember them. Like, I they're mostly just blank, like, blurs of alcohol, of sub other substances, and, you know, I knew, though, back then that I had to get sober. And I was always I would beat myself up. I wanted to drink, but then I would regret it. I would but I I knew I wasn't ready.
Rachael Hechtman:And now I think I just honestly, I'm I don't celebrate Saint Patrick's Day now. I don't really feel the need to wanna go out and celebrate a holiday that really just glamorizes drinking when I think that that is probably the that's it's the antithesis now of what I wanna do. But I it took me a while to get here, and, you know, I definitely think the 1st year or 2, I did kind of have FOMO. I did kinda feel like I was missing out. But I had to really understand why did I why did I think that.
Rachael Hechtman:And and, like, you were just saying, like, why was I drinking? And, yes, and I think there were a lot of reasons I was drinking, which were trauma, childhood things, but also mainly my ADHD, which really caused me to search for dopamine anywhere I could get it. It still does that. I haven't figured out the the how to get away from that, but I find ways to give myself healthy dopamine, whether that's from moving my body outside in nature or journaling or, you know, listening to music. Like, there are ways to get the dopamine that don't numb you and poison you and then make you, you know, black out and do dumb stuff.
Rachael Hechtman:So that definitely is probably the biggest shift, I would say. But yeah, I mean, I really think sometimes it's time. And, you know, sorry. I was also on what you guys were just talking about. I posted something recently on Instagram about just my journey and, you know, addiction and recovery because I was in Florida visiting my grandparents.
Rachael Hechtman:And someone commented being like, I look at all your posts, and it seems like you had so much love and so many great people in your life. I just don't understand then how you became an alcoholic. And they actually said it, like, I'm not trying to be mean, but and and it was definitely negative. And I act I posted the comment, and I got a lot of people's reactions and responses. And I really wanted to open up that conversation.
Rachael Hechtman:Like, do you have to necessarily have all these traumatic things happen to you to become addicted to an addictive substance? Like, does that have to happen? And, I mean, for me, I did have things happen that I can pinpoint, but other people were commenting saying they had the best parents, the best lives. Nothing bad happened to them, and they still found themselves dealing with addiction. So I think that that's just something important to note, anyone listening.
Rachael Hechtman:You don't you don't have to call yourself an alcoholic to stop drinking. You just don't. You can just decide it's not serving you anymore. You like your life better without alcohol. You don't wanna poison yourself.
Rachael Hechtman:You also don't have to necessary you don't have to have a rock bottom. You don't have to pinpoint one thing. Maybe you did have this amazing life and amazing family and nothing really happened to you, but you still found yourself struggling with substances. That's totally possible. And maybe it does go back to mental health.
Rachael Hechtman:Maybe there is something you're not diagnosed with. Whatever it is, it's okay to just say I'm done with the alcohol. I don't need the labels, and I don't want this as for my life anymore.
Damon Frank:Yeah. I love that. You know, I think, you know, my my view has changed a lot on this, you know, coming from a 12 step background where it was very definitive. And for me, I needed that definitive because, you know, I am an alcoholic. I'm somebody that physically when it goes into my body, something happens that I can't explain.
Damon Frank:So, you know, for me, I cannot drink alcohol and what I have, I define as alcoholism. Right? But I do think that it's positive now that we have this bigger discussion. And one of the reasons why I wanna do this is a bigger discussion about people jumping off the train. Because for many of us, the train went to too many stops.
Damon Frank:And we know through alcoholism and just, you know, alcohol use disorder, drug addiction with Fentanyl out right now and not knowing the amount, the dosage, and and all the dangers that are out there in the world, plus other people who suffer from other mental health addictions and are on medications and are mixing this now, that the getting off the train earlier is gonna be better. Right? Like, not not having to define Saint Patrick's Day as your bottom. Because I know there's a lot of people I know a lot of people Saint Patrick's Day was their bottom. They woke up the next day.
Damon Frank:That was it for them because they had consequences that were big. Right? Like, you don't have to have these major consequences to pursue a sober life whether you decide that you wanna be an alcohol that you're an alcoholic, like like I've decided, I have found in my own personal experience of working with other alcoholics that, the sooner that somebody realizes that their activity as far as drinking and using drugs isn't like their fellows, whether or not they decide at that point that they are gonna get sober and maybe they do it 20 years later, I I know that that seed grows in their mind. And I have seen people wake up 20 years later and say, I had the solution back then. I have an alcohol problem.
Damon Frank:Right? And I'm gonna and I'm gonna deal with this, and I'm gonna get some. Right? So I I I think that this is such a great conversation. I'd like to end this panel here just kinda opening it up.
Damon Frank:Kevin, we'll start with you. Any last things that you'd like to say about staying sober, Saint Patrick's Day, this whole sober journey? And then we'll just go around, and, we'll end it.
Kevin O'Malley:So I have a couple of things to say. I was making some notes while you were talking. One thing I wanna point out as being someone who is a purebred Irish Catholic, In in Ireland, Saint Patrick's Day never was a a big outdoor drinking holiday. I mean, Irish people drink. I I mean, there's no doubt about it.
Kevin O'Malley:And drinking is at the center of Irish culture. But having the special party day does not happen in Ireland. In Ireland, Saint Patrick's Day used to be a day that you would go to church. You know, now now it's adopted the American thing. But but, you know, the I was telling you about my friend, my partner in crime, Kent McCarthy, who was my bartender and my partner in crime.
Kevin O'Malley:And, I've got some great stories about him. But he he had a roommate, who was also Irish, a guy named Sean. They went to and he was sober 25 years. So McCarthy was still drinking. Sean and he went to Ireland.
Kevin O'Malley:He sent me a postcard. I was I was, in recovery already living in a halfway house. He sent me a postcard. It says, O'Malley, you swine. Half of Ireland is in AA.
Kevin O'Malley:The other half is drunk. I don't know which is more annoying. And, and that that gives you some insight. You know, I I do wanna say for me though, the great thing about going to an AA meeting, going to therapy, going to any kind of support group is finding other people who think the same way you do. And for me, I would say a critical component of being an alcoholic or needing to stop drinking was that I felt that there was nobody in the world that could understand how I felt.
Kevin O'Malley:I was an only child. I spent a lot of time growing up in Europe. I I felt like you could never really understand who I was. So to hell with you anyway. But let's have a few drinks.
Kevin O'Malley:Let's finish up the coke when we're best friends for life at 7 AM, and and totally alone. Totally alone. And when I got to AA, my very first meeting was was in the Mission District in San Francisco, and it was a funky little clubhouse, and there were shopping carts out in front. And there were there was a smoking section, and 3 feet away was nonsmoking. And, you know, I walked in there and my whole life I felt like I was a Martian.
Kevin O'Malley:My whole life I felt like you could never really understand me. Like I like someone had snatched the earth baby and put me in place of the Earth baby, and I looked just like him, but I was a Martian, and I could never understand my feelings. And that very first meeting, it's like all the other Martians were there waiting for me. You know? And and they had Martian solutions, and that was the 12 steps up on the wall.
Kevin O'Malley:You know, and I got my sponsor at that meeting and but, you know, it the the alcohol was the universal translator that would make everything work. But when I got after I got to AA and I worked the steps, I stepped out of that Martian thing and back into being an earth person. And, the day I did my 5th step in AA with my sponsor over in Noe Valley in San Francisco, I felt like I joined the human race again. But the most important thing is to find people who think the way you do. I would be I would be at AA meetings, and, you know, we laugh at tragedy.
Kevin O'Malley:You know, the the things that you couldn't tell your so called normal friends about, we laugh at an AA because we've all been through it and we got out the other side, you know. And it talks in the big book, it talks about where people who have been like drowning men in the lifeboat together. We never would have found each other except through AA. And then we have that bond together. You and I still have that bond 30 years later.
Kevin O'Malley:And so find people who can understand you. Find people who've had the experiences you do that you never thought you could talk about unless you were really drunk or really high or trying to impress some girl. But you but find people that can talk and you feel comfortable to share and you feel safe to share and you feel like you can honestly be yourself. And have fun. And you don't have to celebrate Saint Patrick's Day, but celebrate life.
Damon Frank:Love this. Sean, to you. Final thoughts?
Sean Ostendorf:Kevin, love the the connection piece, how how integral that is. We call it incongruence of self. Right? When who I how I see myself and how others see me are unaligned. Well, when we can co align those things, that feels pretty safe and secure.
Sean Ostendorf:And and like you said, I love how you phrase the metaphor of the Martians. Fantastic. Right? And and and how I felt now. Hey.
Sean Ostendorf:I feel connected again, and I feel like myself for maybe the first time, ever. Pretty liberating, to some degree. One thing that I'd like to bring it to, Damon, something you alluded to is that, you know, hey. Saint Patrick's Day has been, you know, again, trauma therapist, trauma tie it's retraumatizing, right, because of maybe some of the things that I've done. And then I wanna just offer this support and validation for any way that that, connects with that.
Sean Ostendorf:We are not our past behaviors, and those don't have to define us. And, Rachel, you identified a gratitude and thankfulness, being intentional, right, with maybe some of the changes, that you've made. Being intentional celebrating the wins, throughout our journey. Right? Because we know life's pretty good at handing out l's.
Sean Ostendorf:Right? Especially when we're stuck stuck in our substance use, our dependency, and our addictions. And so can we celebrate those wins when they come? And here's another, Saint Patrick's Day that's come and gone and and and and I stayed sober. And can we celebrate that and spend time toward it?
Sean Ostendorf:We say spend time in in in in the tough stuff, right, in therapy. You know what? Spend time in the wins and the things that feel good, so that we can, you know, increase those concepts of self and how we do feel about ourselves.
Damon Frank:Love that. Thank you so much for those tips. Those are great. Rachel, to you, final thoughts here at Saint Patrick's Day?
Rachael Hechtman:Yeah. I mean, I I love what you were just saying, Sean. And I think that when we're we are looking back on the past and being retraumatized, I also like to tell myself a past version of me would have given anything to be where I am right now. So stop thinking about what's happening in the future. Like, just puke so grateful that we're in recovery, that we're not that person anymore.
Rachael Hechtman:And you're right. Like, our past does not define who we are today, and I think that's something that we all just need to remember every single day. But I would also say that if you are feeling any type of way, social media has a lot of negative sides, but there are a lot of positive sides now in terms of the recovery space and finding people that do maybe get you. So for my social media page, I only follow sober accounts and positive uplifting accounts where I can go and scroll and see memes that I'm like, oh my gosh. Are they in my head?
Rachael Hechtman:Like, how did they I and I really identify. So there's a way to find that connection and that community online. So don't be scared to go onto the sober Instagram side of of ins you know, the world and message someone. DM them. You know, make some friends.
Rachael Hechtman:Like, almost all of my sober friends that I have now in New York City, I met because of Instagram or at a sober event because here in New York City. And don't be scared to kinda search for sober events in where you live. Like, there actually are a lot more popping up every day. There are sober bars now where you can go and hang out. I mean, they're actually opening all over the country.
Rachael Hechtman:To push the comfort zone because that's how we grow and change and learn.
Damon Frank:Kevin, Sean, and Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today. Guys, if you're listening to this out there and you during Saint Patrick's Day and use all the resources that we, mentioned here, you know, connecting with the group, you know, kind of knowing when you're gonna come and go places, having that plan, and then being really present, you know, in which I think is a really great takeaway is, like, being present in what you're doing and where you're at. Guys, thank you so much for joining us today, for for this special episode, and we really appreciate all of your time.
Kevin O'Malley:Thanks, Damon.
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