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The NeuralPod, by NeuralRec.ai
The NeuralPod is all about deep diving into technical machine learning topics and showing its real-world impact, bridging the gap between AI-first companies and adoption.
We chat with subject matter experts across reinforcement learning, recommender systems, deep learning and generative AI. As well as chatting with business leaders, VCs, operations and strategy experts.
Who are NeuralRec.ai? NeuralRec is a recruitment staffing agency. We build niche ML teams and represent some of the globe's best ML talent.
Chris: welcome back to the
neural Pod for, uh, part two.
Alexey Strygin: Hey, uh, thanks
a lot for inviting me again.
Uh, happy to see you.
Chris: Yeah, you, you as well.
I, I, I think it was 18 months ago,
uh, you, you as our first guest and,
um, still one of our most listened to
podcasts around, um, longevity and,
Alexey Strygin: I.
Chris: yeah.
What the main reason
for getting you back on?
I think, um, longevity seems to be
more and more in the mainstream now.
Um, you know, I have, um, friends
talking about longevity that.
Never, uh, spoke about in the past.
And, um, I think that's a
really great sign for the
industry and where it's going.
And, um, you know, for no better
time to get you on and talk
about, uh, recent break freeze.
And you've recently started, um,
co-founded Viva City, which is a,
uh, a longevity city, which, um,
you can talk us through and, um.
You'll be hosting a, an AI agent, um,
hackathon as well for for longevity, which
Alexey Strygin: Sure.
Chris: Um, so yeah, o over to you, Alexi.
And do you wanna just fill us
in on, on what you've been up
to for the last, uh, 18 months?
Let's start there.
Alexey Strygin: Yeah.
Uh, you, uh, mentioned progress,
uh, like even though I think
there is some progress, uh, but I
think, uh, it is still quite slow.
Um, and, uh, so like it's not enough
just to sit on the couch and see how
the wonderful longevity future unfolds.
So like we still have.
Way, way more to do
that than we have done.
We still have no drugs in
humans, which we are Sure.
Uh, that will prolong our lifespan.
Um, and, uh, like we, we can
treat disease, some diseases,
probably a lot of diseases.
Uh, we can treat some age-related
diseases, but with aging,
like even with the best.
Uh, known therapies we're
still not quite sure if they
work or, or not, uh, on aging.
So, uh, e even though like I,
I'm happy that, uh, longevity in
general is getting more traction.
Uh, the industry is still
like, it's pre infancy.
It's pre infancy.
It's so small still.
It's in such a beginning.
And, uh, I think, uh, there
are a lot of opportunities.
Uh, there, and again, this is the most
important industry at the end of the day.
Like almost everyone will give
out, uh, like on a death bed.
Like if you are 80 years old and you,
you, you are struggling, you have a
lot of age related diseases, I'd say.
Uh.
Like almost everyone would give out
all, uh, all, all, all his or her money,
all his or her belongings just to get
to, to like 25 year years of age again.
And, uh, you know, have a,
another, another several decades.
Uh, so yeah.
Um.
Um, with regards to breakthroughs, uh,
I, I am cautiously optimistic, uh, and
probably most cautiously optimistic I
am about the thing I saw just recently.
At the, one of the biggest
longevity conferences called a,
um, RDD, uh, um, agent Research
and Drug Discovery Conference.
Uh, like, and it was, it was not on the
main agenda because it was too radical.
Uh, so there is like a little subfield
in the industry called replacement,
uh, which is basically let's, uh,
try to, not to cure agent, but like.
Basically replace organs, uh, like parts
of the brains and probably the whole body.
Uh, and, uh, kinda like a she of
thesises, uh, can be the analogy.
So like you, you replace a small part,
then another small part, and then,
uh, you can have, uh, the completely
new ship, which is still you.
So this is like a small sub industry.
And, uh, the.
Like, uh, the thought about
it is, uh, quite interesting.
So, like the, uh, kind of
hypothesis is it's way cheaper to
grow the whole organism than, for
instance, to 3D print an organ.
So 3D bio printing.
Uh, it has been, uh, like a
hype sub-industry for 15 years.
Uh, but it seems to be a dead end because.
Biology doesn't work that way.
Like it doesn't print like cell by cell.
And uh, uh, there are like almost, uh,
the industry has almost nothing to show,
just probably like kidney, uh, which was
transplanted to, to, to, to the threat.
So, uh, so like the, the thought
was, okay, biology is doing that.
Uh, every day.
So like we have, uh, animals giving
birth to their progeny and, uh, in
terms of resources, it's quite cheap.
Just food.
And that's it.
Uh, so what if we could, uh, play
out with the bio biology and, uh.
Have, uh, what people call sac of organs.
Um, like what if we could just,
uh, give birth to sacs of organs?
And uh, what I've seen at the
conference was basically a
proof of concept, sac of organs.
So it was a mouse sac of organs,
so they did one in mouse.
And you, you can, it, it looks like a
finger, like a, like a, uh, fat finger.
And you can actually see from the photo,
like you, you can see some organs inside.
And, uh, the biologists
actually like, not very complex.
They just, uh.
Uh, knock down some genes
that are involved in the
development on, uh, of CNS.
So that's basically a suck
of organs without brain and
without, uh, nervous system.
Um.
Chris: when, when you say, um, sack
of organs, so for example, if I was
gonna get my sack of organs, would
it be a replica of my organs or would
it be like, I don't know, get a, a
sheep grown or a pig grown organ or,
Alexey Strygin: Yeah.
Yeah, that's a great question.
Uh, I, I will go back to peak grown
organs, uh, because there, there was
some development there recently as well.
Uh, but uh, no, it would be, uh, your
suck of organs, which are probably
a little bit gene edited for.
Uh, uh, for longevity and, uh,
for, um, you know, for, for, for
you can improve a little bit.
And I'm talking like theoretically
right now, like what will
happen in, uh, several decades.
Uh, and there is a, an
ethical dilemma there.
And we've seen, uh, a lot of, uh, uh,
dystopian movies when, uh, like there
are these, uh, islands full of, uh.
People who, uh, end up being clones
for some rich billionaires, and
they just are growing there and
having fun, and then they're killed.
And, uh, uh, for, for, for the, to be
replaced by the brain of a billionaire.
So
Chris: What's
Alexey Strygin: that,
Chris: What's, uh, has it got
Alexey Strygin: I think it's
called, yeah, I don't remember.
Uh.
Chris: anyway, sorry.
Alexey Strygin: Yeah, but, but like,
uh, there are more than one dystopian,
um, um, dystopian, um, script like that.
So, and, uh, so like basically you don't
want for your, uh, clone to be sentient.
And, uh, this is what.
Uh, where is it this
ethical, uh, gray on lies.
Uh, and, uh, that's why, uh, they're
exploring how to grow all like
psycho organs without brain, or if
it's possible to even grow without,
uh, central neuro system as well.
So this is huge development.
So it means it is possible
to do in mouse and, uh.
Uh, they're doing it now in sheep as well.
Uh, I can't say the name of the
company because they asked me to
remain silent, but, uh, uh, they will
be fundraising quite soon, so, uh,
they might, uh, go public with it.
Uh, but you understand this is, uh,
the technology is still a little
bit gray zone in terms of ethics,
and so they don't wanna erase,
uh, too much, uh, too much of a.
Chris: um, know, companies normally look
for how can they get product market fit,
but in this case, you know, once you get
the breakthrough, I imagine there'll be a
lot of people queuing out the door to, uh,
they might not announce it publicly, um,
they'll, they'll want to, you know, it's,
it'd be a huge breakthrough I imagine.
Alexey Strygin: Yeah, the, the thing
with product market fit in, uh, medicine
and biology, that's a little bit easier.
So there is a disease
and uh, if it's either.
You can either cure it or not.
And if you cannot cure it, then
uh, if therapy works, there is a
product market fit, or if there
is nothing to cure this disease.
So like anything that has like, at least
some even small effect size, uh, it will,
uh, have a product market fit as well.
Uh, when with organ, um, basically a stack
of organs is, uh, uh, it'll solve all the.
Uh, organ, um, um, shortage problem,
which is still a huge issue.
And, uh, there is a, like an
interesting thing I read, and it's,
uh, related to ai, which you are,
uh, a fan of and you probably know
about it than, uh, more than me.
But, uh, uh, like there is this idea
then, uh, the, the most amount of, uh.
Organs for transplantations today
come from, uh, people who die in
car accidents, uh, because these
are like a good source of organs.
Like it's a young, usually young
person, uh, more or less feet,
uh, otherwise people die from,
you know, age related diseases.
And the organs are like not every, not
very good fit for transplantations.
And with the development
of, uh, AI driven cars.
Uh, which already, uh, you know,
Tesla and way more, I think they
showed the data that have like
10 times less, uh, accidents.
So like, uh, and the, this,
the worst it can be is now.
So like, they will only,
they will only get better.
So.
Uh, it, it, it's a kinda
interesting side effect.
So, we'll, we'll have less people
for organ transplants and, uh,
it'll be a way bigger issue.
So there will be more people waiting
for organs to be transplanted
and, uh, not enough organs.
So you would need to think, uh,
like, uh, these breakthrough
technologies like psycho organs and,
uh, very interesting development.
Uh, you mentioned, uh, peak organs.
So like I, I think, uh, people
tried, you know, directly pick
organs, but there was, uh, a company
that was started out of Charge Lab
about, uh, seven years ago or so.
Uh, I think it's called
SSIS or something like that.
I, I, I, I can butcher the name, uh,
but, uh, they basically grow, uh.
Uh, gene engineered organs in
peaks that resemble human organs.
So they engineer several genes
such that for human, um, immune
system, it looks like a human organ.
And, uh, it performs a little bit closer.
It's a human organs and.
About just two, three weeks ago, they,
uh, announced that they're starting, um,
the first, uh, phase of human trials.
So the, and this was, this is
very controversial technology.
Like seven years ago.
It was very, uh, hype and people read,
uh, you know, uh, people, uh, told
a lot about it, but now it's kinda
like the hype has gone and, uh, now
they, they're starting human trials.
Uh, so I think.
It'll be about five, seven, or eight
years from now when first sake of organs
will enter, uh, human trials as well.
Chris: Yeah, you, you touched there the,
the controversial, um, why, why, if,
you know, if they're helping to save
people's lives and, um, growing without
a nervous system or a, or a brain.
Um, what potential, um, cons or
harms or wrists are they pose.
Alexey Strygin: Uh, well, I,
I don't see any risk, uh, in.
I personally think it it way worse.
It, uh, but, uh, I, I
dunno, the right people.
Who don't eat meat.
And like they, they consider all the, you
know, the, and the, the, there are many
of them like, uh, vegetarians and they
are against all killing of living things.
So it's, it'll be controversial there.
That's, that's why this company, that
they, they're really, really cautious and
this sub-industry, they're really, really
cautious in terms of how they approach,
uh, sentt and like how to make this.
Uh, how to word it, even like psycho
organs doesn't sound sentient and
like a non sentient cologne sound
like way more, uh, controversial.
So, uh, but yeah, at the end of the
day, I, I think, uh, it's the same
with speaks like it was controversial
back then, but I don't hear any
controversy about this technology now.
They, they, they just, uh.
Start in human trials and, uh,
when they'll help people, I
think it's, uh, it'll be fine.
Chris: Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
Well, um, yeah, I think that
concludes break freeze and certainly,
um, want to keep an eye on.
Um, okay.
And Viva city, the, the longevity
city that you co-founded, I think
is a really, interesting topic and.
Um, there's lots of facets to it in
terms of how it will work, um, but
I imagine lots of people who list
this would never heard of Viva City.
So at its core, what, what, uh, what is
Eva City and what do you hope to achieve?
Alexey Strygin: Yeah, I, I will
start, um, a little bit, you
know, to, to set up the context.
So the context is that, again,
as I started, uh, this podcast,
I said that we actually have.
Uh, no real breakthroughs we are sure of
today and, uh, wind industry are thinking
that like we are severely underfunded.
Uh, so you, you would think a
lot of billionaires would, uh,
pour a lot of money to, to leave
more, but it is not the case.
It's, uh, like we, we did
the calculations, so it's
like, uh, less than 0.1%
of, uh, total billionaires net
worth is going towards longevity.
So it's like very, very,
very, very small percentage
negligible percentage goes there.
And still, even with this.
Uh, small percentages.
A lot of money is not going to, you know,
to the things that would move the needle.
Uh, it's going to
something more incremental.
Uh, I don't know, like combination
like, uh, a, a better combination of,
uh, uh, exercise and diet and whatever.
Something, uh, I mean, which is
important, but like, it won't
give us, uh, additional like.
Couple of decades, it'll give us a
couple of years, but like, not decades.
Uh, I mean, if you just already do some
exercise and have a decent diet, uh,
you, you get most of the effect from it.
Uh, so like, and the thinking is we
need to like really, really accelerate
the industry and something we as
a humanity did in the situations
like that are mega projects.
Uh, think of, um.
Moon, uh, lending an Apollo program.
So it was like a huge mega
project by American government.
It took 10 years, it took a lot of money,
like a lot of people were working on it.
Hundreds of thousands,
probably millions of people.
Um, Manhattan Project, again, like
it was a huge concentration of
resources, a lot of money went there.
They build a special city, Los
Alamos, where they, uh, you know,
moved a lot of top scientists.
Uh, and basically give them, uh,
uh, close to unlimited resources
like, uh, a lot of resources.
Uh, think of International Space Station.
It is like 150 billion plus.
Uh, initiative, uh, which is
international, like a, a lot of countries
went together and built this thing,
which, uh, orbits the earth and did a
lot of collaborative research out there.
And, uh, I, I think like, uh,
and we need something like that.
For longevity.
That's, uh, the thinking in our
industry to, uh, really accelerate
the how things are moving forward.
Uh, I, I, I like to be honest, the
international space, uh, station analogy
the most because it's international.
Uh, but, uh, also like, anyway,
so the thinking is okay, we don't
have a hundred, 150 billions.
We don't have even 1
billion, uh, in our industry.
Uh.
Uh, like what we can do, uh, and,
uh, so like people build cities, uh,
to solve problems for a long time.
And, uh, if you even go to ancient Sumer.
They already had, uh, cities
that specialized on something.
So there was like a religious city.
It was, uh, like a military city in
Sumer Empires, uh, Soviet Union, um,
where I was born, um, they had more
than 80, what's called science cities.
So communists just build these
huge cities, uh, poor resources.
Uh, moved a lot of people and
just like, well, we, we, we
don't know how to do planes.
Okay, let's do special
science city based on planes.
Uh, and, uh, you know.
The, the, of course most of it was,
uh, uh, related to nuclear as well.
Uh, some of them were like military
technologies, but like a lot
of them was just, uh, you know,
scientific problem that, uh, they
did, uh, they wanted to solve.
And so they just assembled a
lot of people, uh, in one place.
So like, uh, this is, uh,
the thinking, uh, behind it.
Like, what if we could build a
special economic zone that is focused.
On longevity and uh uh, will, um.
Uh, both, uh, attract people and capital.
So like if we had 150 billion,
we would just build Citi and,
uh, hire, uh, best people.
Uh, we have like way, way, way less money.
Uh, so, but we can talk to governments
and ask for this special economic
zone and basically build a, um,
a structure of taxes and laws.
That will incentivize faster, um, drug
discovery, uh, in this particular area.
And, uh, there are already
examples like that.
Uh, the first, uh, example was Talia.
Um, it, unfortunately it
only existed for a year.
Basically forked into two cities.
One of, uh, is Viva City, which,
uh, I am a core, uh, pa part of.
Uh, and another one is called Infiniti.
So Vital Infin, they, uh,
basically, uh, stay in.
Prospera, which is special economic zone,
uh, in the island of Rotan in Honduras.
And, uh, basically they, uh,
Honduras government gave them this
freedom to create their own laws.
And, uh, their own tax policy.
Uh, still the, you know, some laws,
they come from Honduras government,
for instance, a criminal law, uh, uh,
but like there is a proof of existence
of things like that that are possible.
Uh, um, also there are,
uh, several US states, uh.
Montana is one of them who, uh,
who basically passed a law that
allows for early access to, um,
therapeutics, for instance, um,
in, uh, the most parts of the us.
Uh, you cannot access therapies that,
uh, you know, haven't been passed
through phase three, uh, of clinical
trials, of clinical development.
But in Montana, you have this what's
called right to try and, uh, you
can, uh, ask for this therapy.
Uh, so yeah, the.
And the, the premise, uh, behind
Veeva City is that by providing
these rules of the game, uh,
we can both attract investments
and companies to, to come there.
And again, like there is proof of
existence, uh, they have some success
in Talia, which is now infinity.
And, uh, it is recently
gone through the news.
My friends, they have a gene therapy
company, uh, and uh, this gene therapy
was, uh, used by Kim Kardashian.
Or another Kardashian, like one of
the Kardashians, I don't really, uh,
understand Kardashians, but like one of
the Kardashians, she has like a huge,
uh, Instagram and, uh, huge body parts.
And, uh, she, she went specifically
to this place, uh, because she
couldn't do this unregulated
gene therapy in some other place.
So she could basically get early access
to this, uh, breakthrough therapies.
Um.
There is of course a lot of, uh,
potential problems, um, around, so like
if you do, uh, a law like that, uh.
And again, I'm come from ex-Soviet Union
country, uh, and, uh, we basically had
this natural experiments of, uh, lack
of loss in, uh, you know, many areas
including, uh, pharma and biotech.
Uh, so what basically
might happen that, uh.
Uh, pharma companies, they just develop
their placebo drug like a supplement,
like drug, and they just, uh, it's
like very cheap to produce and they
just pour a lot of money into marketing
and this is drug against everything.
And, uh, for them, uh, uh, basically
game theory wise, it, it is, uh.
A better ROI to just pour money in
marketing and get a lot of sales
rather than to pour money and r
and d and develop something useful.
So, uh, there is a, you know, have to
guard against, uh, things like that.
And there are, you know, we still
very early stages there like how to
think, how to balance this thing.
So like we actually get.
In we get, we actually incentivize
development of the things that work
rather than the things that sell.
So yeah.
Chris: Yeah, so it's, it is a really
interesting topic and I think for
exercise in how you would, um.
So the sea kind of reminds me of one
of those, um, realtime strategies
where you've, you know, you've
got, you've gotta build a city
and think about the economics.
Um, hopefully not military, but
um, in terms of, you kind of
already touched on it, wherever.
Eva City finds a home.
Uh, I imagine you'll have to
adhere to the in-country laws
for, for example, Honduras.
Um, do you think you'll have
kind of any say in terms of
how that develops or, um, yeah.
How will that work?
Alexey Strygin: Yeah.
Uh, so Viva City now
does not have a location.
Chris: Hmm.
Alexey Strygin: So we are basically
talking with governments about giving
us like a piece of land, uh, to
do a special economic zone there.
And by the way, we have, uh.
A bounty, uh, quite a large bounty
if you know heads of states or
other decision makers, and you
can put us in contact with them.
Um, uh, there is a huge
bounty and we decide to, to
actually, uh, it ends up in us.
Building a special economic
zone, uh, in this country.
Uh, this is a huge bounty for it.
Um, so we, we are, we're now shopping
with, uh, shopping the, the place,
talking with countries, and, um, yeah.
Um, this is like one of the
main, um, negotiations points
out there, like how much.
Uh, freedom in terms of, uh,
basically setting off of our
own laws, uh, they can give us.
And, uh, like with things like criminal
laws, it's not like you don't wanna
develop everything from first principles.
I mean, ideally if you had like 150
billion, you, you would, uh, you would
love to build your own courts, your own
everything, your own private military.
Well, probably like.
No, not private military, but like
private, uh, security, at least, like
some, basically a form of police,
um, that which is like, uh, educated
and, uh, you know, can at least
speak, uh, the same languages as the
international scientists that that
will be living, uh, in this place.
Uh, but, uh, you have to like,
uh, in, in each individual place,
it's a question of negotiations.
For instance, um, you know,
you, we can yield, uh.
Some, uh, you know, some freedom,
uh, towards, I dunno, access to
a bigger, uh, number of people.
For instance, like, uh, it would be good
to have a little bit less, uh, of a say
in laws, but to build, uh, Viva City near
Los Angeles like, which is, you know,
Chris: That,
Alexey Strygin: it'll be.
Chris: that would be my next question.
If you could manifest a piece of land or
a country or a, you know, a, an island
perhaps out of the way, may, maybe Hawaii,
um, you know, where would you, where would
you pick Viva City to be, to be based and.
Alexey Strygin: Yeah, me
personally, I would, uh.
I would pick a place near the population
center, uh, which, uh, is rich and
has a lot of, uh, scientists and
entrepreneurs, uh, already living there.
So, uh, it would be probably a Bay
Area, it would be Switzerland, it
would be, uh, you know, some large
population center, probably like Paris.
Um.
Yeah.
Uh, yes.
I, I, I think, uh, Switzerland,
bay Area, Boston will be ideal.
Uh, just because I, like, I've, I've did.
Like why I'm interested in this
project because, uh, before being an
entrepreneur, I was actually working
for a special economic zone and, uh,
we were building it, uh, near Moscow.
So, and it was like a suburbs of
Moscow, like very, very close to Moscow.
Um, and it was a challenge
to even get people there.
And then, yeah, I mean, it's like
half an hour to one hour drive.
And it's already a challenge to
get people to move there, uh, to
get people to have offices there.
They're like, oh shit.
I'm like, I'm quite used to
drive 15 minutes to my work.
I don't wanna drive, uh, 40 minutes.
That sucks.
Uh, so it was a huge challenge
already and what we've seen with,
uh, infin and Vital in Honduras that,
uh, a lot of people came there first
time to kind of, because it was.
Exotic and interesting, and
just to see what happens.
It's a kinda, um, uh, you
know, cool place to be.
But, uh, for the second time, uh,
well, very few people stayed there.
Uh, all, uh, basically almost only the
team of, uh, vital Italian Infiniti,
uh, uh, and like several o other people.
But, um, like for the second
time, people were like, eh.
It's Honduras like even like, even
though it has direct flights from
Miami and to other, uh, US cities, it
was already a huge, uh, huge problem.
So, uh, I just think, uh,
and like we need a lot of.
Scientists, like, we won't solve this
with just, you know, random people.
We, we need to, we need
highly educated people there.
So, um, the best would be built, we, if
we could build it with, uh, close in,
close proximity to universities, uh,
and, um, you know, uh, uh, smart people.
Chris: Yeah.
And how, how do you think you
would actually govern Viva City?
So, you know, would
you create a democracy?
Um, you know, would it be
something out of a sci-fi film?
May maybe an elder council
of, um, longevity experts.
Um, have you, have you even got that far?
Alexey Strygin: Yeah, no, not really.
Uh, it's, um, basically it's um, so
like we jumped from the cliff and we
built in the plane while we falling.
We actually, um, like what,
what we did, uh, uh, like we,
we started it, uh, in January.
So like what we've been doing
these months, uh, we've been doing
basically a small, um, a small
gathering in a small popup city.
Uh, I mean, it's small
quote unquote small.
So it was, uh, like a whole, uh, building
in central San Francisco, uh, to see
like even if we could gather the like.
Hundreds of people in one
place and see what happens.
So yes, we, we definitely
could gather, uh, uh, a lot
of smart people in one place.
But again, it's San Francisco, so
like it's a, a heart of the beast.
Uh, like, well, what if it
were like a remote island?
And I mean, we already have, uh, uh, a,
you know, a queen of one of the very, very
remote islands basically giving us like.
You can do everything, but
it's so far from everywhere.
Like I, I don't know if we
could get anyone to come there.
Uh, I mean, we, we, we
definitely could if, uh.
So like there, there is a
chicken and the neck problem.
So if there are we therapies that are
now kind of prohibited by regulators,
uh, to access the market, but like
we all know they work, uh, we could
have open it in the special economic
zone and like people would come.
But like there is, uh, we need
to both develop these therapies
and give early access to them.
So like this, this is like a.
Very interesting system
to optimize and, uh, yeah.
Um, so like, uh, back to your
question with regards to loss.
So like we.
Primarily thinking about, uh, uh, the
laws around longevity, early access to
therapies, like how to do, basically like
how to know not to end up in a situation
stem cell industry, gut themselves into,
because with stem cells, they've been
existing for like several decades and
we're still not sure if they work or not.
Because they were kinda
forced, uh, to, to the fringes.
And, uh, like several Mexico, like,
uh, Bahamas, countries, like, like
basically the thin circle, uh, the US.
Uh, and, uh, no one, like, almost
no one, uh, let's put it accurately.
Almost no one did, uh,
proper clinical trials.
So always this, uh, very anecdotal,
like Rogan said, like, oh, I injected
my knee with these things, and like,
oh, suddenly everyone is injecting
their knee and, uh, we still don't
know is is it placebo or not?
Like, oh, like people say it
work, but uh, does it really work?
Um, so.
Uh, we, we with stem cells actually
went back and, um, uh, looked at
the data there are around, uh.
A dozen, a, a little bit more
cell therapies that we know that
work, including CAR Ts, car ts,
like super advanced anti-cancer
therapies, which are basically
like some form of cell therapies.
So I think it, it's very, very,
very few, uh, cell therapies
that we know that, that, uh, that
work and how to not end up there.
And at the same time give
early access to therapist.
Like we, we are thinking a lot about laws
there and, uh, how to, like, one of the
interesting things, uh, uh, and approach
is like how to basically outsource
the FDA, like, so how to outsource
regulation and not, not do it ourselves.
So like they, they, they might
be some interesting, um, ideas
around there, for instance.
Uh, an insurance, like a
company should, uh, basically
be eligible and buy insurance.
And insurance companies would
be basically the regulator.
So they would assess the risk, they
would get this data and they probably
will do it much more efficient.
Like, if there is some competition,
they'll be doing it way more
efficient than the FDA, uh, other
idea might be to, you know, to, uh.
Basically save this money.
Like basically a person pays this
money, uh, but you, you pay a
little part of this money to, to
the actual company and, uh, the rest
of the money will only come later.
Uh, only if this therapy works.
So, uh, or like when we will get the
data in couple of years, uh, from
the, you know, well conducted clinical
trials that, that, that it works.
Uh, so yeah.
And, uh, there, there are like,
and again, there is also, there
are, uh, several ways to, to do
things way faster than FDA as well.
And, uh, even FDA is going for instance.
Uh, for some, uh, indications, they
allow now to skip, uh, preclinical
trials on mice and, uh, you
know, large primates, primates.
For some, um, uh, it's not, not
indication, but for some therapeutic
modalities, so like, I think in the.
If we can do, uh, an, uh, you know,
a mental experiment, uh, probably
in like 50 years, we won't, uh,
need clinical trials at all.
We would, uh, you know,
do clinical trials in sco.
So, uh, everything will be done in a.
Model of human, uh, and it will
be as good as, uh, uh, current
clinical trials and probably, uh,
preclinical and clinical trials.
So like what, what if we can, uh,
you know, shortcut and do some part
of it today and, uh, uh, you know,
focus on how do we get there faster
and, uh, you know, skip, uh, uh, you
know, work the regulation around, uh.
How do we, we can get the in silico data
and, and uh, in instead of, you know,
getting information on, um, animals.
So like the, there was like really,
really a lot of things to think about.
And, uh, we, so again, uh, as I said,
we did, uh, Viva Frontier Tower,
uh, which was, uh, the pop-up city.
Uh, like a small experiment, uh, of like
if you can get a lot of people there.
Uh, and it was nice, like a lot of,
we, we got a lot of good feedback.
Um, the, that was the place to be in
San Francisco for a couple of months.
Um.
And now we actually are thinking
about strategy, how to, how, basically
deep answers to your questions.
Uh, like what, how, what
we should prioritize.
Shall we first, you know, uh, do some
product that like, shall we prioritize
something that works today and be less
radical, but like, get money or shall we
prioritize, uh, you know, uh, a moonshot?
Chris: Yeah, it sounds, um,
amazing and incredibly complex.
Alexey Strygin: Yeah.
Chris: There's so many things you've gotta
Alexey Strygin: Yeah.
Chris: so, um, yeah.
Amazing.
Okay, so, um, I.
Yeah.
the reasons that prompted me to get you
back on, I was, I was at the gym and,
um, the, the news randomly popped up.
I think it was a picture of, um,
uh, a couple of world leaders
in the east, shall we say.
Um, and, you know, they, they're all
happy and smiles because, um, they
think they've found a way to live to,
um, you know, I think the, the figure
was 120, 130 or something like that.
50.
Alexey Strygin: Yep.
Yep.
Chris: that any truth or basis to that to
have, you know, I guess one of them could
get lucky and live to 150 if they did the
right things, um, and the stars align.
But do you think there's a blueprint to
follow, um, for, you know, multiple people
to get there now with the right, you know,
the right money and the right technology?
Alexey Strygin: With
current technology, no.
Zero chance.
Uh, so, uh, yeah, and, uh, if things stay.
In about the same, uh, amount of money
spent on the industry as it, it is
being spent today, also zero chance.
So the, the best chance they have, uh,
like I'd say like 9,500 or something
like that, if, uh, you know, the
amount, uh, that is invested in, uh,
longevity, biotechnology stays the same.
Um, but.
Again, if, uh, we drastically increase
the amount of funding and we start
doing, uh, international space, uh,
station, like program for longevity.
Today, then they stand a chance.
Um, but I can, I can definitely talk,
uh, a lot about one, uh, person of these
two leaders, uh, because I'm happen
to be Russian and I'm, you know, I'm
quite aware of, uh, what's going on in,
uh, Russian longevity, biotechnology.
Uh, and uh, even though there are like
a lot of people from, um, you know,
Russian or post-Soviet descent in the
industry, a lot of them, uh, actually.
Uh, they moved out of Russia, uh,
and, uh, you know, with things that
happened, uh, three years ago, uh,
it only accelerated the, um, you
know, the move out of the country.
So, uh, some people state there, but it's.
Civilian underfunded.
So like the, the, you know, the things
are being funded, uh, don't get me wrong,
but the, the numbers are laughable.
So it's probably, you know, you know,
several million dollars per year.
Pro, it might be like several,
dozens, millions, million dollars
per year, which, which is peanuts.
You can't solve agent with this.
Small amount of money.
I mean, look at the, you know, uh,
you need, uh, x ai scale investment,
like 10 billion, uh, for, uh, you
know, uh, I think they got it twice
this year, like two 10 billion
rounds or something like that.
So like, we need this scale
for longevity as well.
Uh, I'm a little bit more.
Uh, cautious and optimistic towards China.
Uh, I don't, uh, know much about
what's happening in China just
because of the language barrier, but
we don't have many, uh, longevity
scientists coming up from China.
They kind, you know, uh, but we have a
lot of papers and breakthroughs coming
out of China, and I know for a fact that.
One of the like, interesting longevity
researchers, she was working in Germany.
Um, she was working on ax oils.
It is one of the, uh, interest in animal
models that has a negligible senescence.
So they basically don't
show the science of aging.
And, uh, they are also, um, known
for the regenerative abilities.
So like if you cut their lack.
They, they will grow a new one.
Uh, if you, you know, cut their
tails, they will grow a new one.
So like, they basically can regenerate
and, uh, they don't age, so they basically
don't die from age related causes.
Like she, she was studying there and
she showed this negligible senescence
part that was actually not known before.
The regeneration part was known before.
Uh, and she just showed it on the, you
know, last, uh, agent conference and, uh.
I know for a fact that she was given
a huge amount of resources in Beijing,
and she is opening her second lab
there, and she's looking for PhDs,
postdocs, and, uh, lab technicians.
So like, uh.
Uh, China has way more resources and they
definitely, uh, you know, do something.
Uh, you know, Russia, they, you know,
they, uh, leader tend to be working in
this KGB like manner, everything under
the radar, like secret, uh, operations.
Like, let's, let's, uh, do it in secret.
But the, the, the, the science,
science doesn't work that way.
It's like you can probably solve some.
Like the, the agent is, uh, too
complex of a problem to just throw
several scientists there and, and say
to them, you know, stay, stay silent.
Don't, don't talk to anyone.
So like, it has to be like.
Huge international
consortium of scientists.
Uh, a lot of clinical trials,
a lot of trial and error.
So like I'm, uh, I'm, I'm pessimistic
towards, uh, Russia and, uh, cautiously
optimistic towards China doing something.
Uh, wars well in there, but, uh, you
know, probably the best would be to
convince Western governments to do,
uh, an international space station
like, uh, scale project like that.
And that was definitely,
uh, move things forward.
Chris: Yeah, I, I, I guess time,
time will definitely tell on the,
Alexey Strygin: Yeah.
Chris: one.
Alexey Strygin: Yeah.
Again, like this is very important.
Like with current technology,
we can get, uh, I don't know.
We, we, if you look to the papers,
you can get about 10 years with, uh,
lifestyle and, uh, you know, which
is optimized more or less well, if
you have Brian Johnson level of.
Optimization.
It's, you know, you can't really say
scientifically because the, we don't
have like, uh, 300 Brian Johnson's,
uh, clinical, in clinical trials
and, uh, uh, like, uh, control group.
Uh, but uh, I'd say like if you're
Brian Johnson, you can probably
get like 20 additional years.
Like if you, if you will be super cautious
with today's technology again, so like.
Uh, we bet there is some technology
development and like all the
projection, they assume some, some
level of development of technology.
So like, basically it's like every
year we get, uh, additional like, uh,
couple of weeks of life expectancy.
Uh, and you, you, you, this is the
trend, but, uh, we want to get to the
point that every year we get more than
a year of additional life expectancy.
And like, this is a huge gap.
Uh, but, uh, there is, uh,
exponential nature to the technology.
Uh, so like.
At some point this, uh,
it might go exponential.
The only difference is will we
be alive at this point or not?
So like, uh, that's what I'm afraid of,
like, uh, that like my children will
get to these technologies, uh, and I
will be the last generation to die.
So like, I want to accelerate
it as, um, uh, as, uh, as good
as possible, as good as I can.
So, like, and again, like, it, it, it
might be like a one person like El Musk.
Uh, for space industry, like
how much Elon Musk accelerated
space, uh, uh, exploration.
Decades.
Definitely decades.
So it, it, it can be one
man's like, that's why I, I,
I, I want to create cities.
I want to, I, I'm doing this hackathon
right now, just to, to get more people
like, and to one, it, it would, it might
be a difference of one right person coming
to the industry and shaking things up.
Chris: Yeah, talk, talk, talk to us.
Uh, I think that segues nicely.
Talk to us about, um, your ai,
um, agents versus aging hackathon.
Um, you know, what's it about and,
um, how can people, uh, be part of it?
Alexey Strygin: Yeah, so basically
the idea is like there are very few
people working on agent, probably
like five, 10,000 people in the world.
Uh, so let's, uh, get both
more people, uh, and uh, also
like way more, uh, AI agents.
That will also work on the technology
and, uh, hopefully, uh, we will
accelerate the progress a little bit.
Uh, so there are two
tracks in the hackathon.
Uh, one track is fundamental
research and it is.
Uh, curated by, uh,
two companies, zero.ai,
the company, which I used to work for.
Uh, and uh, another one is Retro
Bioo, which is a company which is
funded by none other than Sam Altman.
Uh, so yeah, we got this, uh, you know.
A behemoth of the industry.
And, uh, they're quite known in
San Francisco and Silicon Valley.
One of the cool companies out there,
one of the leaders in the field,
like they're, they, they're working
on a very, very cool technology.
Still preclinical though.
But, uh, yeah.
So they will curate the fundamental track.
They will have, uh, some fundamental
questions about aging biologists, for
instance, like my favorite ones is about.
Uh, theories of aging, how to, you
know, compare the theories against each
other or like, uh, the end goal is to
actually find a theory of aging that
would explain the most amount of data.
Uh, so like, it's either the
existing theory or like a, you
know, a combination of the existing
theories or the new theory.
So this is like a very cool
fundamental track and like the
fundamental track they have, uh.
Uh, this measurable, uh, outcomes
and, uh, so like this is a little bit.
Uh, and they have data sets, so like
this is a little bit more understandable.
So you optimize one number and,
uh, like the, uh, team with the
biggest number wins basically.
Uh, so, and, uh, this is the,
the track for those who want
to find the job in longevity.
So because, uh, both retro and Jro,
they basically, uh, are looking to hire.
Uh, people if these engineers
proof, uh, to be outstanding.
Uh, and this is basically like a cool,
cool way to, to find a job there.
The second track, which, uh,
I am spearheading, is focused,
is called rapid adoption track.
So it's basically focused on two things.
Uh, it's a little bit less
stringent in terms of, um,
what we ask from participants.
Uh, so it's focused on two things.
Uh.
Uh, either.
Like product companies, something that
might become a product or a company.
So like if you wanted to start
something in, uh, longevity by
technology, but you are a engineer or
AI engineer, you like have no idea.
You, you, you, you basically could,
can code and you know, a y AI quite
well, but you, you don't know like.
Where to apply it.
So we, we will help you, we'll curate
you, we will help you find partners.
We'll help you, you know, find, uh,
uh, explore product, market feed.
Uh, you know, at least, you know.
Put you in the direction of product
market fit, uh, put you with a,
you know, marry you with the right
people and the right, um, mentors.
Uh, and the other one is, uh, a
subpart is a social impact part.
It's basically, you know, develop
something in two weeks, uh, that, uh.
We will spread the message
in a better manner.
It might be, for instance, uh, you
know, like a lot of, uh, AI agents
are assessed, uh, about how much they
can attract money to a nonprofit.
Uh, so it, it, it's, uh, one
track, one thing you can do.
So like we have a lot of
nonprofits in longevity industry.
So like, if you could, uh,
raise more money by agents.
That, that's one of the things.
Another thing might be something like
we want to rate, uh, world politicians
like, uh, each country, and we wanna rank
them in how much, uh, of, uh, longevity,
friendly and r and d friendly they are.
Uh, and, uh, that might be for instance,
uh, and like a very pr um, PR both thing.
You know, some random politician
in, uh, you know, a distant
country will, might treat it.
Oh yeah.
Hey, I think some, uh, pro life.
Uh, so like, uh, yeah, let's do that.
And we, we, we can actually, because like
we have, we also live in our own bubbles.
Like we are international community
of people who want, uh, to
live, uh, as long as possible.
But like, we don't, we don't
have that much people from, uh.
Asia.
Like we, we, we don't have a
lot of people from Australia and
like basically not one person.
So yeah, uh, we, we just,
uh, Latin America as well.
So, uh, yeah, we shall see with goals,
uh, the, I invite everyone to participate.
There are again for this, um.
Um, we have special prizes
by, uh, immortal Dragons.
That is a venture capital fund.
We have special prize by Afin
Doo that is doo focused on female
reproductive longevity as well.
So like a FinTech, uh, theme AI agent,
uh, will get, uh, special prizes as well.
Uh, we have five bio protocol, which
are like also the, you know, um.
Crypto related, uh, like, uh, good
crypto companies that sponsor us.
And, uh, for the finals, uh,
I invited several VCs and,
uh, several angels groups.
So the, the, the, basically the focus
is to, yeah, like, uh, to get several
people to start couple of companies.
Like if one or two companies get
started as a result of this hackathon,
I, I think it'll be a success.
Chris: Sounds amazing.
I think it, it, it seems like a really
good way to, for people who are maybe
in other areas of ai, um, who want
to come and try longevity to, to
get involved with the community and,
Alexey Strygin: Yeah.
Chris: like it.
And to your part at the start of the call.
It's, um, you know, as a
recruiter when I speak to.
Engineers or researchers,
motivation is, is never money.
It's always about how
they can make an impact.
And I don't think there's any,
um, know, cer certainly top
three, top five most impactful
problems to work on, um, right now.
And, uh, in many cases at the,
the top, um, impactful problem.
So, Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll put the
link, uh, to the hackathon in the
show notes, um, and link to your
profile for people who, uh, wanna
get involved and, um, so sounds
like it's gonna be a, a great event.
Alexey Strygin: Yeah, hopefully.
And again, like with, uh, you mentioned
AI engineers, a lot of people think
ai, like we should just yolo on ai.
Uh, and AI will solve aging for us.
I mean.
It might be true, uh, but like, let's,
uh, assign, you know, some probabilities.
Like there is, uh, again, people
say 10 to 20% chance of, uh, uh,
misaligned ai and we basically all die.
Uh, we, we, you know, AI people can't do,
uh, AI can't really do anything with it.
You know, probably AI people think
they can do something, but I think
the genius is out of the battle.
So like the, the China and us.
Uh, are, uh, you know, in a
game theory, uh, situation
where they can't really stop.
So like they can't, uh, us cannot
allow China to, to be the, you
know, first company to, uh, to
the country to develop better ads.
And they, so like the, it just game,
game, the impossibility to stop
the race, you can only curate it.
It's in, in such a way that it's, uh,
you know, not, no, not misaligned, ai.
But like, there is a also a chance
that, um, AI will solve aging.
Like, let's put some probability on that.
Um, but there is a, like a big
chance that, uh, AI will hit a,
you know, a sort of a brick wall.
So let's say, you know, it stays
around the current capabilities
and, uh, you know, get, uh, uh, like
not exponentially better, but like.
Five, uh, 10% better every year,
and then it'll get like three
to 5% better and every year, and
then like 1% better every year.
So like, it, it might be, uh,
that, uh, LLM is kinda, uh, at, at
that end, at the end of the day.
So.
We still, uh, and like probably
we're talking a lot about it in the
industry and like, it probably the
first thing that, uh, you know, let's
say a strong ai, um, like a super
intelligent, uh, uh, AI arrives, uh.
You know, right now.
And, uh, we ask, uh, it like, uh,
so how will do we solve aging?
And uh, the answer is, okay, uh,
we need to generate more data.
It's like, let's do this.
And of course it'll help once it'll
say, okay, let's do these experiments.
Uh, uh, do it way faster.
And, uh, but it still will take a
lot of time, uh, to do them, even
though like it'll be optimized.
But like, uh, we might as
well start doing it today.
So like we.
We don't know if, uh,
strong AI will come at all.
We don't know if it'll come in 10 years.
We don't know if it it'll come, it
might come in 50 years, but we will,
we will be that by the, by then.
So we'll be, it'll be too late.
So, uh, the, the, my point is, uh.
Yes, I think AI is like a huge accelerant
and a huge enabling technology.
And I mean, I'm doing the whole hackathon
how to use AI to accelerate the progress,
but, uh, you, you know, you don't have,
um, uh, I, I would really, really be
skeptical towards just relying on, uh,
AI development to solve everything else.
Uh, so, uh, uh, I would really
hedge, uh, our bets and, uh, uh,
what is more important than life?
Uh, I mean, yeah.
Uh, for me, nothing.
Chris: Yeah, it ma makes sense.
And I think, um, great, great to
have you on for part two today.
Some really
Alexey Strygin: Hmm.
Chris: uh, topics covered.
I know, um, I think I said this on
the first podcast, but, um, since
we've chatted, um, you know, I'm more
involved in longevity in terms of.
Alexey Strygin: Oh,
Chris: how I can really
improve the quality of my life.
And I think I genuinely think more
people are starting to talk to it.
And, um, you know, I'm a big fan of
the industry, so anything I can do to,
to support and help spread the word, I
Alexey Strygin: cool.
Chris: like you say, it's
a super impactful problem.
And, um, look forward to seeing the,
uh, the Viva City journey continue
and, uh, long, long, may it continue.
Alexey Strygin: Cool.
Thanks a lot, uh, for inviting me.
See you around.
Chris: Yeah.
Thank you Alex.