Lead On Podcast

On this episode of The Lead On Podcast, Jeff Iorg, president of the SBC Executive Committee, discusses how leaders can discern and pursue God's direction when guiding churches or ministries through major change. Drawing from biblical examples, his own leadership experiences, and practical insights, Dr. Iorg unpacks how God provides clarity and unity in pivotal moments of organizational transition.

Creators and Guests

Host
Jeff Iorg
President, SBC Executive Committee

What is Lead On Podcast?

Ready to hone your leadership skills and unlock your full potential? Tune in to the Lead On Podcast, where Jeff Iorg dives deep into Biblical leadership.

Hosted by SBC Executive Committee President Jeff Iorg, this dynamic podcast provides insight for seasoned executives, aspiring leaders, or those in ministry who are simply passionate about personal growth. The Lead On Podcast offers actionable, practical tips to help you navigate the complexities of ministry leadership in today's ever-changing world.

From effective communication and team building to strategic decision-making and fostering innovation, each episode is packed with valuable lessons and inspiring stories to empower you on your leadership journey.

Put these principles into practice and Lead On!

Jeff Iorg:

Welcome to the Lead On podcast. This is Jeff Iorg, the president of the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, welcoming you to another discussion about practical issues related to ministry leadership. That's what we do on this podcast. We talk about the ins and outs, the ups and downs, the daily grind, and what it means to lead a church or a ministry organization. Well, for the next few weeks, I wanna do a little three week mini series on leading change.

Jeff Iorg:

Now, some of you know that I wrote a book a few years ago called Leading Major Change in Your Ministry, and I've taught this material a lot all over the country in conferences and seminars. But when I'm asked to do that, I'm usually only given an hour or two, which is fine. But I focus on two of the core parts of the beginning of my book, which are developing a diagnostic tool of five questions to help you think through when your organization or church is ready for major change. And then secondarily, I talk about the difference between change and transition and talk about transition management and how to help people through the process of a major change. What I seldom have time to do is go over into the second part of my book and look at a model that I developed out of the life of Joshua as a leader in the Old Testament about some key insights related to Leading Major Change.

Jeff Iorg:

And so I wanna talk about three of those big ideas in three weeks of podcasting here with you. So leading major change, and we'll start at this place. It begins with direction from God. Now Christians often speak of finding God's will or getting God's direction on decisions, but oftentimes, those comments relate to personal decisions like who to marry, what school to go to, which job to take, and that's all fine. But what about when the decision is not so personal?

Jeff Iorg:

What about situations that involve many people like employees or students or church members? How does hearing from God for a community and with a community differ from discerning God's guidance individually? We're gonna talk about that today on the podcast. But as I said, this part of my book is built on a study of the leadership that Joshua provided in the Old Testament. And in Joshua chapter six, part of his story reads this way.

Jeff Iorg:

Now Jericho was strongly fortified because of the Israelites. No one leaving or entered entering. The Lord said to Joshua,

Jeff Iorg:

look. And then he goes on to describe the message that he received. But what I wanna focus on today is that important sentence, the Lord said

Jeff Iorg:

to Joshua. Now while the details of what he said are intriguing and make for a interesting study and a lot of good preaching, The part of the story I wanna focus on today on the podcast is that simple little phrase,

Jeff Iorg:

the Lord said to Joshua.

Jeff Iorg:

Those are heart stopping words.

Jeff Iorg:

God spoke to Joshua. Every leader needs similar communication before embarking on a ministry altering trajectory of major change. So then the question becomes, how did God speak to Joshua? The Bible does not include that detail. Wow.

Jeff Iorg:

The results are there, the Lord said to Joshua, but the description of the means is left out. You know, in other Old Testament stories, God spoke through

Jeff Iorg:

a burning bush to Moses, that's Exodus three. In Numbers 22, he he smoked by the mouth of a donkey. And in Daniel five, there's that famous handwriting on the wall. God uses some very interesting media, doesn't he, to get his point across? But with Joshua, there's no mention of the means, just the fact that God spoke in such a

Jeff Iorg:

way that Joshua received the message. Now making assumptions about how this happened can be dangerous. I call

Jeff Iorg:

it the Moses on the mountain method of determining God's will. In other words, we think that in order to hear from God, we have to go away to retreat or a conference or some sort of secluded location, meet with God, draw conclusions about his direction, and then come back and announce it to our followers. Case closed. God has spoken. This is

Jeff Iorg:

what we're doing. Well, that may have worked for Moses. It might have even worked for Joshua. But in order for that to work like it did for Moses, you need a burning bush. We've already established that for Joshua, we don't know exactly how it worked.

Jeff Iorg:

We only know that he heard from God. So as you

Jeff Iorg:

get into these Old Testament examples, while they're dramatic and, in some cases, fun to talk about, I'm not sure that they really provide for us the guidance we need for how to do this today. I think it's better to look to some New Testament models and try to draw out of those models some instructions and some principles for receiving God's direction in community about major change. So let me share with you a few insights from a couple of these New Testament examples. The first recorded church leadership decision was just prior to Pentecost, and it reveals how the early community, the early Christian community made a significant decision. The problem that they were facing was replacing Judas who had betrayed Jesus and so so they could round out the 12 member apostolic leadership team.

Jeff Iorg:

Now why they felt that was important? Not really revealed in scripture, but they felt like they needed to replace this man. Part of the story in Acts chapter one reads like this. During those days, Peter stood up among the brothers. The number of people who were together was about a 120 and said, brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled that the Holy Spirit through the mouth of David spoke in advance about Judas who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

Jeff Iorg:

Therefore, from among the men who have accompanied us during the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day was taken up from us, from among these, it is necessary that one become a witness with us of his resurrection. So they proposed two. Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justice, and Matthias.

Jeff Iorg:

Then they prayed, you, Lord, know the hearts of

Jeff Iorg:

all men. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take the place of in this apostolic service that Judas left to go to his own place. Then they cast lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias. So he was numbered with the 11 apostles. Now reading that story, some key elements to community decision making stand out.

Jeff Iorg:

First, they

Jeff Iorg:

consulted God's word. You see that in verses sixteen and twenty. Second, they referenced the Holy Spirit's guidance.

Jeff Iorg:

You find that in verse 16. Third, they established reasonable criteria for the replacement apostle. Find that in verses twenty one and twenty two. Fourth, they proposed options, two men who met the standards for selection. Fifth, they prayed.

Jeff Iorg:

And finally, they made a community based decision by casting lots using an Old Testament method. Remember now the context, in the final days before the spirit era dawned at Pentecost. So they're in that in between time from Old Testament to new, and so they borrow this Old Testament practice of casting lots to make their final decision. Well, another example of early community decision making is in Acts chapter 15. Now it's too long a passage to read on the podcast because it's almost the entire chapter.

Jeff Iorg:

But this is now some time after the first story that I just mentioned, and the church leaders were becoming much more effective in leading community decision making. So the story in Acts 15 involves delegations from two churches, Jerusalem and Antioch, meeting to decide an important doctrinal issue. The question was the role of circumcision in salvation. Was it required prior to conversion, or was salvation by grace through faith apart from any external work all that a person needed for conversion? So, again, let's go through the story without reading it all and just pick up some highlights.

Jeff Iorg:

First, they heard various reports from the people involved in the dispute, and then James made reference to the word of God. That's Acts fifteen fifteen, consulting what had previously been said on the issue. Second, Peter mentioned the work of the Holy Spirit as part of the process. He did this in verse eight. And then when James later wrote the letter, summarizing the results of this meeting, he also referenced that it was the Holy Spirit's decision.

Jeff Iorg:

Third, the leaders cited reasonable evidence for their decision. Peter talked about how he had learned that the Gentiles were included in the work of God. He mentions this in verses ten and eleven. And then Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders that had been done among the Gentiles in in verse 12. So there was reference made to experiences which informed the decision that needed to be made.

Jeff Iorg:

And then fourth, James proposed a solution that the group write to them or write a letter to them summarizing their conclusions. They they later wrote this letter and it was sent and distributed by courier, and went on a tour of the Gentile churches starting in verse 23. You can see this. And then finally, while prayer was explicitly mentioned in the first story, there there's no mention of it

Jeff Iorg:

in this passage. Now does that

Jeff Iorg:

mean they did not pray? No. It doesn't mean

Jeff Iorg:

that at all. It only means that prayer is not explicitly mentioned in this verse. Does it mean they didn't pray? Does it tell us for sure that they did, but it isn't mentioned specifically either way. So these two stories, drawing from both of them, illustrate some of

Jeff Iorg:

the processes that we can depend on by which God's direction can be discerned or discovered in community, whether it's a church community or a ministry organization community. Now these stories are descriptive of what happened, but they also are at least in their principle form prescriptive. Now, don't mean that in a formulaic way. I don't think you can one, two, three, four, five say, this is exactly how it was done and it's exactly how we have to do it. Because there's not even total agreement between the two stories, although there's enough commonality between them that we can synthesize these stories and produce a set of principles that can guide us in group decision making.

Jeff Iorg:

So here they are. Number one, when you're trying to discern God's direction in community, number one, God speaks through his word. This is the primary way that God speaks to leaders today. He speaks devotionally as we read the Bible on a regular basis, and he speaks directionally, meaning that he clarifies potential ministry decisions and how that may relate to his overall mission of expanding his kingdom around the world. Now reading the Bible this way, devotionally and directionally, are the ways that God speaks to us about how he wants us to move forward related to major change.

Jeff Iorg:

Now it's important to remember that there's not likely going to be a specific verse in the Bible about every kind of potential change you might be considering. But instead, there is strong communication throughout the word of God about the mission of God. His mission is a plumb bob, a straight line that never changes. And since you may not have a chapter and verse reference for many of your leadership decisions trying to discern how God is moving you forward, it's the alignment with God's overall mission that's the essential evaluative standard that you're trying to use. The Bible, for example, does not have a verse specifying when to organize staff or relocate to a new campus or revise your small group strategy.

Jeff Iorg:

It simply doesn't have chapter and verse on these issues. But their appropriateness of what you should do can always be discerned and interpreted in light of God's overarching mission. Now discerning leaders allow the Bible to help them consider specific decisions in light of their alignment with God's overall mission. And this can be a purifying process that forces leaders to consider the real reasons that they're proposing a major change and remembering that major change should only be made when it will legitimately advance God's mission. Alright?

Jeff Iorg:

Number two,

Jeff Iorg:

God guides through prayer. First through the word, then through prayer.

Jeff Iorg:

Now how does God work through prayer to guide decisions in an organizational context or in a community context? Well, two ways. First, leaders must make the decision making dilemma known as much as confidentiality will allow and ask their followers to pray about the decision. For example, when we were thinking about moving, the seminary from Golden Gate to Gateway and from Northern to Southern California, we repeatedly informed our employees and students and graduates and donors and others of the challenges we were facing and the processes that we were struggling with to find our way forward. And we asked them to pray for us in this matter.

Jeff Iorg:

And in private settings, when information can share be shared even more freely, we informed other groups like our board of trustees, for example, about the whole spectrum of the problems and the possibilities and asked them, and organized them actually for prayer meetings about our issue. And I remember one particular meeting, we set aside most of an afternoon for an extended prayer time. And as we all looked back later, we recognized that it was in that prayer time that something happened that crystallized our unity and brought us together and gave us focus like nothing else had ever done before. This prayer time became so meaningful that our

Jeff Iorg:

board chairman, took the initiative

Jeff Iorg:

to organize the entire board into prayer partners and encourage them to pray with and for one another as well

Jeff Iorg:

as for the seminary between our formal board meetings. Now I have other examples of this. When I was leading in

Jeff Iorg:

the state convention, we would have listening sessions across the state, and we would say we want to listen to you, and then we want to listen to God. And we would have time for people to give input, and then time for people to pray together, asking God to speak to us and give us his direction as we go forward. Which leads me into the second way that prayer can be used in community to discern God's leadership, and that is when key decision makers pray together. Whether it's deacons or elders in a church, or whether it's board members or faculty members at the seminary, whether it's staff at a at a at an annual retreat, it's very important to spend time praying together, praying for each other and for wisdom about the decisions. You know, leaders are typically strong willed people.

Jeff Iorg:

We're opinionated, and we're more than willing to develop and defend our ideas. Leaders need a concrete way to humble themselves, demonstrate mutual dependence on God, and express solidarity with fellow decision makers. And there is nothing, and I mean nothing, like praying together to accomplish those goals. Prayer is more than an occasion to speak words to God. It's how we open ourselves to God and ask him to speak to us and through us.

Jeff Iorg:

And by praying together, God works to bring incredible unity among people who humble themselves by praying with and for each other in each other's presence. Well, discerning God's direction in community begins by consulting the word of God and continues with meaningful and intensive prayer. And third, God directs by the Holy Spirit. Now the most mysterious way that God directs is by the spirit. But because the presence of the Holy Spirit is sometimes connected to outlandish public displays.

Jeff Iorg:

You know, some more conservative evangelicals, they prefer not to emphasize the spirit. Frankly, they're practical dualists rather than practicing Trinitarians. They focus on God the Father and God the Son, no problem there, but they forget about the Holy Spirit who becomes the ignored member of the Godhead.

Jeff Iorg:

Brothers and sisters, leaders cannot afford this omission. We need the spirit's guidance in making decisions about major ministry changes. We access this guidance through prayer and through the word, but also through something that I've come to call a signal event. Now, what is a signal event? Well, a signal event

Jeff Iorg:

is a supernatural orchestration of circumstances revealing God's intentions. Signal events are like flashing lights announcing it's time to change

Jeff Iorg:

or it's time to go. Now signal events have several distinguishing characteristics to help people

Jeff Iorg:

recognize them when they happen. Here they are. Number one, signal events happen unexpectedly. They come out

Jeff Iorg:

of the blue. You can't predict them. You can't cause them. You can't make them happen. Second, signal events are beyond what can be controlled by any person or group.

Jeff Iorg:

Third, signal events motivate and unified people who are often awed by what happens. Fourth, signal events are like dropping the green flag at a NASCAR race. They say, it's time to go. Step on

Jeff Iorg:

the gas. Accelerate your pace. And finally, signal events become part of the narrative. They become part of the bedrock of understanding God's direction so that when difficulty comes, the signal events and the memory of them strengthens our faith by reminding everyone how God acted to launch the major change initiatives. And then another good advantage of signal events is that they often relate to the timing of major change.

Jeff Iorg:

Now we've said this before on the podcast. You know, leaders often see the need for major change long before their followers, and they can become so frustrated with the pace of change, wondering why everything is taking so long. We try to force the issue, getting people to attempt major change before the timing is right, but mature leaders know that waiting for the right time to lead major change is essential. Now in considering these signal events, let me just tell you some stories here to help you

Jeff Iorg:

understand what they look like. The first one is a signal to move.

Jeff Iorg:

As I've told you before, I started at my ministry as a pastor of a church that needed to relocate. I knew it the first day I went there. It was a church that was located in a on a dirt street on a part of town that hadn't fully been developed yet, and we were less than a mile from the intersection of two four lane paved roads that were the main thoroughfares in that

Jeff Iorg:

part of the community, it was crystal clear to me from the very beginning. We needed to be moved from where we were to where they are today. Well, when I proposed that idea, no. That was not happening. We waited and we waited and we waited.

Jeff Iorg:

A couple years went by. Church kept growing. We were running out of space. Many good things were happening, but we had a situation where we knew sooner or later we had to do something. So finally, the church leaders proposed, let's elect a committee and let's just go out and look and see if there's any land available.

Jeff Iorg:

And the idea was, we'll prove that this is not ever going to happen and we'll stop talking about it.

Jeff Iorg:

So the committee was gonna be elected on a Wednesday night at a church business conference. Well, the people that were being on

Jeff Iorg:

the committee that were were gonna be nominated knew who they were. So the Saturday before the Wednesday meeting, one of the men on that group, his name was Keith, he was out early on a Saturday, and he noticed a a local realtor and developer's office. And there was a car in front of it on a Saturday morning, so he stopped in and told this fellow, we're thinking about he said, I'm thinking about buying some land, and I I wonder if you know of any available in this part of the community. And and this person and this friend, Keith, they had a relationship that predated this moment from doing business together in the past. So the fellow said, oh, no.

Jeff Iorg:

I I don't have anything not anything for your that your company could use. And he said, oh, no. It's for my church. The guy said, oh, for a church? He said, yeah.

Jeff Iorg:

We're looking for about 10 acres out in this part of town.

Jeff Iorg:

The closer we can get up to this main intersection, the better. The guy said, let me show you something. He pulled out of a piece of paper and unrolled it, and there was a plat for a 10 acre property of a subdivision, a 100 yards from the corner of the intersection that we had hoped to move toward. He said, this is something I've been wanting

Jeff Iorg:

to build for years, but I just don't think there's a market for it

Jeff Iorg:

right now. It'll be perfect for a church.

Jeff Iorg:

He said, I'll sell you the whole 10 acres for what I gave for it.

Jeff Iorg:

And he gave us a price. It was practically a giveaway price.

Jeff Iorg:

So my friend had more conversations with him then rolled up that paper, brought it over to my house, knocked on my door. Midday on Saturday, I looked out. What is Keith doing here? He comes in. He said, I need to talk to you.

Jeff Iorg:

He rolls out the paper, and he tells me the story that I just told you. We sat there looking at each other slack jawed. And I said, We're about to move a church. He said, I know we are. He said, This is unbelievable what God has done in letting this all come together this morning.

Jeff Iorg:

So the following Wednesday, we elected this committee, and of course, we're not ready to reveal what we know yet, not in a public matter. So I said to the committee members that night, so we can get organized for our first meetings, why don't you guys all come back to my office and let's just compare calendars and get organized and all of that? So they came in my office and I said,

Jeff Iorg:

well, we need to do more than get organized. Keith and I need to tell you a story.

Jeff Iorg:

Keith, you go first. And Keith told the story of what he

Jeff Iorg:

had experienced this past Saturday, and he rolled out the paper and he showed the drawing of the land and where it fit into the community and all of that. Those five other men sat there looking at that piece of paper and one of them, a banker, smiled and said, brothers, we're about

Jeff Iorg:

to move to church, and we all just looked at

Jeff Iorg:

each other. It it was over. God had provided a signal event, something we could not have orchestrated, we did not control, we we didn't set the timing for, could only be explained by his supernatural intervention.

Jeff Iorg:

It was all right there in front of us.

Jeff Iorg:

So a few weeks later, we brought that report to our church. We had all our t's dotted and our i's crossed. And we said, here's what's happened. And what happened in that worship service has not been a frequent experience of mine, but it's happened a couple times over my lifetime. People started spontaneously cheering and shouting the praise of God because of what had happened that few weeks before in our church.

Jeff Iorg:

This is a signal event. It's when God steps in and says, it's time to go.

Jeff Iorg:

And he does something in such a dramatic way that there's no possible denying that God is at work. Now I had a similar experience at the seminary when the person who bought the campus walked in my office and made the offer to buy it. I had a similar experience in Oregon when we had started our church and we had been portable for ten years, and then a circumstance arose where we were essentially given 10 acres of property and challenged to move our church into a building that we would build and own. What I'm trying to tell you is that these signal events come along in ways we couldn't expect, can't predict, can't control,

Jeff Iorg:

and can't cause. But at the right moment, in the right way, at the right time, God steps in and does something miraculous. What I've learned along the way is that I may see the need for

Jeff Iorg:

the change. I may even lay groundwork for the change. I may even be working toward the change,

Jeff Iorg:

but I need God to speak. And I'm working through his word and through prayer and then trusting the spirit to bring about

Jeff Iorg:

circumstances that produce unity of decision making and purpose in a spiritual community like a church or a ministry organization.

Jeff Iorg:

And I've seen nothing do that like a signal event. Look. When we brought forward the report about this land being made available to our church, almost all the opposition to the relocation evaporated immediately. People rose up and said, God

Jeff Iorg:

is moving. We got to get in step.

Jeff Iorg:

Same thing happened at the seminary. When I

Jeff Iorg:

got up and told the story of how the buyer had come to us and how we had worked through all of the processes and how we were ready to go and how the new buildings had been provided, people stood back in awe. As one faculty member said, I have never seen God work like this in our school. He said, I've been here for almost thirty years. God is moving and I want to

Jeff Iorg:

get in step with that. Man, these signal events are like that. They say go,

Jeff Iorg:

and they do more in a moment than we can do in a decade of trying to orchestrate circumstances.

Jeff Iorg:

Be in the word, be in prayer,

Jeff Iorg:

and then trust the spirit to bring about a signal event to get you moving. And then finally, these stories also tell us that God communicates through people. You know, sometimes I think we devalue meetings or getting together and working on problems,

Jeff Iorg:

but that's what they did in the New Testament. And there are

Jeff Iorg:

two groups of people that you wanna pay attention to. First, colleagues, people that you share the work with. And collegial decision making really contributes to good decisions because a leadership group can generate more ideas and options than an individual. A group can also edit out bad ideas. A group can turn good ideas into great ideas.

Jeff Iorg:

And finally, a group can help you to even surface objections so that when you later go public with your decision, you'll be prepared to answer the objections because you've already dealt with

Jeff Iorg:

them in the small group.

Jeff Iorg:

I'm telling you that people working together on a problem are one way that God gets us to the very best decisions. And I've also seen this over the years, that is when I come forward with a decision that's been made by a group, a group of people that are trusted, that the rest of the organization or the church tends to be much more accepting of the decision when they know it's been processed thoroughly by people that they love and know and respect. And then the final group you wanna consult are what I call authorities, and that's people who have the authority to make the decisions or the people who are responsible to implement those decisions. It's a good thing to be under authority. I know I work under a board and so I may have done all of this that I've described on the podcast.

Jeff Iorg:

I may have been in the word and been in prayer and I may even have a signal event to report. And then I come back to the authorities and say, I'm putting all of this before you and I'm trusting that you as a person in authority will help make the right decision to move us forward. Well, what I've tried to talk about on the podcast today is this, major change begins with direction from God. We saw it in the Old Testament story, the Lord said to Joshua. I want you to have that kind of confidence as you go forward leading major change.

Jeff Iorg:

You'll have that kind of confidence when you're in the word and with people in the word, when you are in prayer and with people in prayer, when you are looking for and discerning the spirit's word, as I call it, a signal event that comes along. And when you are engaged in community, meaning that you are working with colleagues and people who have authority to make the best kind of communal decisions possible. Well, reflect on these things. You are responsible from time to time to lead major change. Don't do it on your own.

Jeff Iorg:

Do it only with direction from God. But when you do it, be confident that you are fulfilling your responsibility as you lead on.