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Far too often, governments behave like toddlers. They’re fickle. They don’t like to share. And good luck getting them to pay attention to any problem that isn’t directly in front of them. They like to push each other to the brink, and often do. But when they don’t, it’s usually because other people enter the proverbial room. Private citizens who step up and play peacemaker when their governments won’t or can’t. People who strive for collaboration and understanding, and sometimes end up finding it in unlikely places. Those people and the work they do, they’re the reason we’re all still here.
This season, we’ll hear from scientists, analysts, and idealists who have gone to crazy lengths just for a shot at making peace and building understanding From smoke-filled rooms in North Korea to secret labs in the Soviet Union… to the lawless seas, and even to the depths of outer space (or, at least, the conference rooms where they talk about the depths of outer space). This podcast tells the stories about the people holding us back from the brink.
Hosted by Dr. Jeffrey Lewis, a professor and scholar at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies on the Nonproliferation and Terrorism Studies faculty. Previously, he served as Director of the Nuclear Strategy and Nonproliferation Initiative at the New America Foundation and Executive Director of the Managing the Atom Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard University. He is the founder of ArmsControlWonk.com, a leading resource on disarmament, arms control and nonproliferation issues.
Produced by Gilded Audio and the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies.
The Reason We’re All Still Here
Prologue
Transcript v2.2_FINAL
OPEN
[00:00]
MUS
I’m Dr. Jeffrey Lewis. I’m a professor at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey. Yep, that's the whole title. I study nuclear weapons with the hope that if we understand our predicament a bit better, we’re less likely to die in a nuclear war. If you’re listening to this, and you’re not in some sort of irradiated, post-apocalyptic hellscape… well, you’re welcome.
The thing is, lots of people have jobs like this. They’re not celebrities… unless you count C-SPAN. They’re not even politicians.
They’re in the meetings that happen before the politicians get there, or the ones the politicians won’t take. They’re the people looking for solutions to problems that most people haven’t thought about yet, doing research that most people won’t ever hear about, and, yeah, writing papers that most people are never going to read…
… but collectively, they’re making
[01:00]
it a little less likely that war will break out, bombs will fall, and we’ll all die horribly. So I think their stories are worth sharing.
MUS out
MAX: I won’t have my feelings hurt if… Jeffrey disagrees with what I say and I need to re-do it.
This is my friend Max. Maxmillian Angerholzer the Third, in fact. We’re old friends.
JEFFREY: Oh I can’t disagree, I’m just the host.
MAX: Okay, fair enough. But you are, you are and always have been opinionated, Jeffrey, so
If you’re familiar with my politics, you might be surprised to learn that my friend Max is the CEO of the George and Barbara Bush Foundation. But then again, he's also the type of person who seeks out opportunities to find common ground, even when those opportunities are not at all obvious.
And that’s how Max found himself on a work trip. In Iran. In 2007.
MUS
If you don’t remember what things were like between the United States and Iran back then,
[02:00]
let me remind you: They were not great.
MONTAGE
60 MINUTES: The president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, knows how to infuriate the western world, and he did it again last week when he asked to visit Ground Zero.
[CLIP: UNGA]
0:10 - 0:29
Mr. Ahmadinejad suggested that the 9/11 attacks were staged by America to save Israel.
[CLIP-SITUATION ROOM]
[0:38 - 0:48]
A group of about 100 students staged a rare public protest, shouting “death to the dictator”
In short, things then looked pretty much like they do today.
I've known Max for a long time, which is why I can say it was so very him to look at the situation, which seemed so hopeless, and ask the question, ‘what could we do to build trust while we wait for these two governments to start playing nice?’
MUS out
MAX: There was the hope that there was an opportunity to overcome some of those major barriers that had come up after 9/11.
And that
[03:00]
was why Max decided in 2007 that he'd organize a trip to Iran where he'd bring Nobel Prize winners to visit
MUS
and meet with Iranian scientists and students.
One of the scientists who attended was Dr. Joseph Taylor, a Nobel Prize-winning astrophysicist from Princeton. The reaction that Iranian students and scientists had to him was astounding.
MAX: He was a rockstar in Iran. It was incredible. And just the excitement to, to hear from him, to be in the same room with him was breathtaking. I mean, he was treated like Bono going to an Irish middle school.
The thing was, throughout the course of the trip – the scientists got to know one another. They didn’t talk about politics. They talked about science and research. They made plans to collaborate. And they developed mutual respect.
MUS out
MAX: The idea is, you know, you may not see eye to eye diplomatically or politically,
[04:00]
but you know, science follows a certain methodology. It's, it's people to people. It's a way to build trust.
The appreciation was so great that, as he packed up to leave, Max realized he’d received too many gifts to fit in his luggage.
MAX: The number of gifts that we got was incredible and they were very nice gifts. These are from scientists and researchers. But I knew I couldn't mail these back to the United States, you know, DHL was not gonna deliver it from Tehran to Washington, DC and I didn't have room in my luggage.
Max needed to buy an additional suitcase.
MAX: I want something that's sturdy but not too expensive and, you know, I'm not sure if my wife's gonna like this or I may only get to use it one time.
I know Lindsey, and Max’s fear is well-founded. So he conferred with the proprietor of the shop and together, they identified a suitcase that Max can proudly take home.
MAX: I go up to the desk to pay,
[05:00]
MUS
and the proprietor of the store looks across at me and he says, “You're from the UK, Max.” I said, “No, no, no sir. I'm from America.” And his eyes get really big. And he comes around from the other side of the register and gives me a big bear hug. And he says, “This is my gift to you. I love the United States.” And I said, “Well, sir, you know, I can't, I can't accept this gift. Thank you so much. It means a lot. But I need to pay you for this. Like this is your, this is your livelihood,”
MAX: He says, “no, you're in my country, so you have to follow my rules. And my rule is that I'm gonna be hospitable. This is my gift to you. But I ask something in return. I want you to go back to the United States, and I want you to tell all your friends and family that the Iranian people do not hate the American people, that the Iranian people love the American people, and that we have so much more in common than we have apart, and that we hope we can overcome these political differences.”
Now, this trip may sound like it’s not a very big deal. Some scientists socialized, so what? Well,
[06:00]
I happen to think that this specific trip laid the essential groundwork that led to the 2015 Iran nuclear deal. Max may not agree completely with that sentiment, but in my telling of the story, I suspect you can draw a straight line from the good will that Max bought on that trip – to the good-faith negotiation that got the Iran Nuclear Deal done.
MAX: I mean, you can't help but understand the person on the other side if you spend time with them and if you get to know them and you travel around the country with them or have dinner with them, there's gonna be a greater appreciation, understanding for the American perspective on the Iranian side and vice versa. Even though the work we were doing was not diplomatic intentionally, I think there certainly was a diplomatic benefit to it.
MUS
The Iran Deal failed. Or, it succeeded, only to be failed by politicians.
This kind of thing happens a lot.
[07:00]
Governments kind of suck at collaborating. But there are also people like Max who will step up and become peacemakers when their governments won’t or can’t. People who strive for collaboration and understanding, and sometimes end up finding it in unlikely places… like a suitcase shop in Tehran. Those people and the work they do, they’re the reason we’re all still here.
On this season…
MONTAGE
STEVE: I'm not sure how many Americans have ever sat on top of a Soviet nuclear weapon [maniacal laughter]
TOM: The lab director took off all his clothes and jumped in the lake, but the congressman kept their clothes on cuz the reporters were there.
ANCHOR: Yesterday, two US scientists maintained that the yellow rain phenomenon had a very natural cause: it was the feces of honeybees on massive defecation flights.
RUMSFELD: …idiotic things, to try to build a nuclear power plant. They don’t need a nuclear power plant!
MARTIN: The documents were removed by the KGB.
PETER: Now I don’t drink but that night I got very drunk
[08:00]
because that’s how you work these issues in North Korea.
JAIME: it was a covert, illegal facility, this was a bioweapons lab. It wasn't a biodefense lab.
ALIBEK: It didn’t matter how many people would die.
ANDREA: We are the guys who send an undercover team to the port to sniff around and ask questions.
JEFFREY: So step one A, define dumb shit.
VICTORIA: Exactly, verify whether people are doing dumb shit.
MAX: That may be a segment that we don’t want to include, because then I’ll probably get some phone calls.
Subscribe to The Reason We’re All Still Here for stories about the people holding us back from the brink. Or, you know, trying to.
MUS out
[8:45]