What Chinese History Teaches Us About The Present with Dr. Pamela Crossley

PJ is joined by eminent Asian historian and Dartmouth professor Dr. Pamela Crossley. Together, they discuss how Asian and specifically Chinese history informs our modern world.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, Dr. Pamela Kyle Crossley from Dartmouth College examines the intricacies of Chinese history and how studying China's past can help us to better examine our own lives. 

For a deep dive into Dr. Pamela Kyle Crossley's work, check out her books: 
A Translucent Mirror: History and Identity in Qing Imperial Ideology, which you can find here 👉 https://amzn.to/3B7HmNX 
Hammer and Anvil: Nomad Rulers at the Forge of the Modern World, which you can find here 👉 https://amzn.to/3J7HfVo 
The Manchus (The Peoples of Asia), which you can find here 👉 https://amzn.to/3oCLtwn

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: Hello, welcome chasing levitahan. Uh is what's going to go into the interview. I don't edit

[pj_wehry]: unless you ask me to take something out. You know, I've had a couple people are

[pj_wehry]: like I, That's not what I meant. That's not what I want to say, but um, not not in

[pj_wehry]: a bad way, Just like you. All. They stumbled over some words, but uh, for the most

[pj_wehry]: like, I'm not a big fan of gotcha journalism. If that makes sense,

[Unknown]: okay

[pj_wehry]: like the, uh, I'm not looking for sensational stuff. I'm I. I want people. What

[pj_wehry]: I'm trying to create is a place where people can learn um, uh,

[Unknown]: okay

[pj_wehry]: at a deep level about issues. So I, I think you know you. You're asking like great

[pj_wehry]: questions of life, but uh, I think that there's. It's very important that we

[pj_wehry]: search for truth with different modes if that makes sense,

[Unknown]: yes

[pj_wehry]: and I think history is really important for that, and I think there's a lot that

[pj_wehry]: we can learn about ourselves by looking at an entire culture's history. I mean,

[pj_wehry]: there's way more

[pj_wehry]: like Chinese cultures, way bigger than Western culture when you consider like how

[pj_wehry]: many people I if

[Unknown]: yes

[pj_wehry]: unless you know,

[pj_wehry]: and so, uh, I think there's a lot to learn there That that's my approach to what

[pj_wehry]: we're talking about today. Um,

[Unknown]: okay all good

[pj_wehry]: so

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: i i definitely agree

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: i

[pj_wehry]: um, so I'll go ahead and I'll introduce you and then I'll introduce the topic and

[pj_wehry]: they'll ask you to talk about yourself how you got interested in history. Um, and

[pj_wehry]: uh in Chinese history, And then we'll just talk about. Um. What did I have as the

[pj_wehry]: Uh shoot? You think I would have that up?

[pj_wehry]: I just want to. I want to say it correctly, because I don't want to

[pj_wehry]: tell you that we are talking about one thing, and then uh, change the question on

[pj_wehry]: you.

[Unknown]: okay

[pj_wehry]: uh, how? uh,

[pj_wehry]: how? uh. How can we better understand China

[pj_wehry]: and maybe ourselves by understanding China's past,

[Unknown]: okay

[pj_wehry]: And if you're just, and if you feel more comfortable just talking about, Uh, how

[pj_wehry]: can we better understand China? I'm okay to that too.

[Unknown]: okay

[pj_wehry]: Let me break that part down.

[pj_wehry]: It has been a very busy day so my apologies

[Unknown]: oh okay

[pj_wehry]: for not have that.

[Unknown]: that is fine

[pj_wehry]: I, uh, I home school my two boys and I help my wife run a digital marketing

[pj_wehry]: company, So

[Unknown]: oh my gosh

[pj_wehry]: I,

[pj_wehry]: I'm There's a lot of hustling,

[Unknown]: and you you have time for this too

[pj_wehry]: Uh, probably not, but I'm trying.

[Unknown]: okay well i hope you can work on your own schedule

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, I, I can. Oh, we own the company, so that's a big part of it.

[Unknown]: okay

[pj_wehry]: so um,

[pj_wehry]: but regardless, uh, are you comfortable and ready to start?

[Unknown]: sure

[pj_wehry]: awesome?

[pj_wehry]: Hello and welcome to chasing the Viython. I'm here today with Doctor Pamela

[pj_wehry]: Crosley, Uh, Doctor Crosley, is a specialist on the King, Empire and modern

[pj_wehry]: Chinese history, and also researches and writes on Central and Inner Asian

[pj_wehry]: history, Global history, the history of horsemanship and Eurasia before the Modern

[pj_wehry]: period and the imperial sources of modern identities. She is the author of eight

[pj_wehry]: books, Uh, forthcoming as The Hammer and Anvil, Nomad Rulers at the forge of the

[pj_wehry]: Modern World, and uh, the most recent. after that, I believe is the Um, wobbling

[pj_wehry]: Pivot China since eighteen hundred and Uh, Doctor Crosley, absolute pleasure to

[pj_wehry]: have you on today.

[Unknown]: thank you it really is a pleasure to be here

[pj_wehry]: And what I want to ask you about today is how can we better understand China, and

[pj_wehry]: perhaps even ours.

[pj_wehry]: Uh, by understanding the history of China, Obviously, you know. that's why you're

[pj_wehry]: here. That's what.

[pj_wehry]: That's your specialy.

[pj_wehry]: How did you become interested in history and how specifically how you become

[pj_wehry]: interested in Chinese history?

[Unknown]: okay there's there's a lot of questions kind of fell on top of each other there but

[Unknown]: there's probably a way to weave them together

[Unknown]: i'll to start with the thing about getting interested in china because it's

[Unknown]: easier i think it was

[Unknown]: you know i'm from a different period when i was in high school we had the vietnam

[Unknown]: war going on

[Unknown]: and

[Unknown]: there were a few other little connections that my family had to asia in various

[Unknown]: ways but i kinda conceived the idea i'd like to take a course on vietnamese history

[Unknown]: when i went to college but then the college i went to was too small and they didn't

[Unknown]: have vietnamese history they only had chinese history and then you have to add on

[Unknown]: to that

[Unknown]: just by happen stance

[Unknown]: my earliest and best friends were

[Unknown]: students of chinese descent from malaysia hong kong and so on so it just things

[Unknown]: just sort of yet i was an english literature major as an undergraduate i did a lot

[Unknown]: of history

[Unknown]: one of my professors said somewhere towards the end you could go to graduate school

[Unknown]: in chinese history

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: she had the idea and

[Unknown]: well it worked out so there we are so it was just it was it was actually those

[Unknown]: things that they tell you history is about one one darn thing after another

[Unknown]: why i would stay his interested in china and particularly the period i'm doing well

[Unknown]: you know very very recently my professor died he was a very very well known

[Unknown]: historian jonathan spence

[Unknown]: and

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: so i just just today i finished a little essay about the you know he

[Unknown]: just had a way of of doing history and talking about people and experience and the

[Unknown]: past that really i wasn't the only one before or after there a lot of people who on

[Unknown]: account of him

[Unknown]: got kind of stuck in the ching period was just more or less means the early modern

[Unknown]: parrot the

[pj_wehry]: M.

[Unknown]: time when

[Unknown]: we're on the way to where we are and i think he had a really wonderful sense of

[Unknown]: what that kind of felt like for these people whose lives were starting to become

[Unknown]: global

[Unknown]: so

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: like jesuits who were going to china

[Unknown]: chinese who in the eighteenth century nineteenth century were visiting europe he

[Unknown]: was particularly interested in those kinds of experiences and so

[Unknown]: that was a very very important influence um

[pj_wehry]: I have his book As at Modern China. It's big

[Unknown]: yeah that big one this

[pj_wehry]: and thread. I have it downstairs.

[Unknown]: that really be good

[Unknown]: it's a wonderful thing to have on the shelf it's it's called the search for modern

[Unknown]: china it's

[Unknown]: the book that you have to have if you gonna look like you know things about china

[Unknown]: so that was a very very important influence there

[Unknown]: i really think to get back to the sort of first question that you asked and to sort

[Unknown]: of

[pj_wehry]: Mhm.

[Unknown]: tie this in

[Unknown]: the way that you put it was very good what can we learn about ourselves by learning

[Unknown]: about china and actually before we started you also said something very important

[Unknown]: which was it

[Unknown]: and something that people actually tend to overlook which is

[Unknown]: yeah most of human history has actually happened in china i mean the greater

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: proportion because that's where the people have been and it's also it is a long and

[Unknown]: continuous cultural history

[Unknown]: so and in fact a long and continuous economic history so it really is true that um

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[Unknown]: the history of china

[Unknown]: is uh fundamental to to just thinking about the history of mankind

[Unknown]: i'm going to say mankind because actually man used to as you made him used to be a

[Unknown]: not a gendered word um so ah

[Unknown]: it's so this is a really important thing to me you know my profession went through

[Unknown]: a period

[Unknown]: can't say when it ended because for some people it hasn't ended yet but where

[Unknown]: part of the whole approach for people whether they were in history or political

[Unknown]: science

[Unknown]: history of religion philosophy the part of the whole thing was to make people think

[Unknown]: that there's something really really special about china and you've got to be uh

[Unknown]: one like you got to rely right on these experts experts like me

[Unknown]: who we studied the language we've been there we you know we know all the we know

[Unknown]: about confucianism and so and and so

[Unknown]: that's you have to look to us for us to tell you about all the wonderful special

[Unknown]: unique things about china

[Unknown]: now people do have to know those things expert knowledge is really important in

[Unknown]: every single field but the essence of it i think is where you started with your

[Unknown]: questions which is

[Unknown]: the chinese are people like us they're not actually

[Unknown]: some strange exotic you know weird thing that you have to know a lot of secret

[Unknown]: things about in order to understand

[Unknown]: on

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: the contrary because

[Unknown]: of the um

[Unknown]: just the magnitude of

[Unknown]: chinese population chinese

[Unknown]: historical experience

[Unknown]: they're the most exemplary right in some ways of what's happened to humanity

[Unknown]: because you know the biggest sample right is the most exemplary if it has the

[Unknown]: necessary characteristics of diversity and you know representativeness which china

[Unknown]: actually does so

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: i like where you're starting with that and i would say that's more or less what the

[Unknown]: significance is of the study of china

[pj_wehry]: So you think that Chinese history and I'm just clarifying here.

[Unknown]: yep

[pj_wehry]: So feel free

[pj_wehry]: to respond

[pj_wehry]: because because it is that large sample, it is probably the most representative in

[pj_wehry]: one nation of the history of mankind

[Unknown]: yeah if you can get

[pj_wehry]: or one culture? Yeah,

[Unknown]: yeah i i mean and i think there there are many ways to look at this

[Unknown]: if you wanted to be reductionist right we could just say well how about this

[Unknown]: population thing i mean when i was in college

[Unknown]: we were still being told well the reason china is having so many problems in the

[Unknown]: nineteenth century there was a population boom and then all of a sudden there were

[Unknown]: like all these chinese

[Unknown]: and

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: uh that you even hear people today still say the size of the population is the

[Unknown]: explanation for everything when things are going well for china the size of the

[Unknown]: population is the answer because it provides the you know cheap labor and you know

[Unknown]: great diversity of talent when things are going badly for china it's because of the

[Unknown]: population cause there's not too many of these people

[Unknown]: but

[Unknown]: actually

[Unknown]: um when you put it into let's say a global perspective

[Unknown]: china's pattern of population growth as a general thing

[Unknown]: is simply it has the same curve to it right that the global population has so yeah

[Unknown]: there was a kind of population boom in china in the eighteenth century because it

[Unknown]: was a population boom everywhere in the eighteenth century it just happens that in

[Unknown]: the case of china you know you can do something with chinese history that you

[Unknown]: couldn't do with let's say belgian history okay so you can look at the curve of

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: population growth in belgium it's not going to look anything like the curve for the

[Unknown]: human population because it's too small

[Unknown]: and it's also it's not diverse enough it doesn't have diversity of terrain it

[Unknown]: doesn't have you know you know it's in the temperate zone but other than that it

[Unknown]: you know china has a tremendous diversity of terrain of agricultural resources and

[Unknown]: the probably

[Unknown]: most

[Unknown]: had to say well this is a very striking thing that people tend to look at

[Unknown]: when you look at tables let's say you're gonna open something and it had all these

[Unknown]: tables of population growth or anything

[Unknown]: and then china will always be up there at the top because in fact china today as a

[Unknown]: as a political entity right as a shape on a map as with

[Unknown]: corresponds in a real general way to china two thousand years ago three thousand

[Unknown]: years ago but the other place that actually has a a history rather similar to that

[Unknown]: would be south asia which today is broken into pakistan india bangladesh and so on

[Unknown]: so you're going to look them up all separately and you will never get the picture

[Unknown]: that you'll get by looking up china if you see if you see what i mean

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, Absolutely.

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: And you mentioned it, and I hadt written down as the question. What are some of

[pj_wehry]: the most popular misconceptions that you deal with teaching Chinese history?

[pj_wehry]: Obviously, this idea of blaming everything on population is something

[pj_wehry]: is a common one. Are there any other really popular misconceptions that people

[pj_wehry]: just get wrong about China all the time.

[Unknown]: well blaming everything on china is a good one

[Unknown]: the the other one yeah that it it it yeah it's around they they the the other would

[pj_wehry]: It's true.

[pj_wehry]: Yeahm, hm

[pj_wehry]: Yeahm, hm

[pj_wehry]: Yeahm, hm

[pj_wehry]: Yeahm, hm

[pj_wehry]: Yeahm, hm

[Unknown]: be china originated everything so that that's like people and we have people who

[Unknown]: believe both of these at the same time um

[Unknown]: i was on a podcast not too long ago

[Unknown]: in which it sort of came up towards the end that

[Unknown]: once these myths

[Unknown]: about chinese or east asian history get kind of they wear out with historians so i

[Unknown]: they don't die they go into political science and international relations where

[Unknown]: they just continue living so

[Unknown]: confucianism right confucianism the explanation of everything in china

[Unknown]: no i mean historians would not go for this now but it it went over there it went

[Unknown]: over there to political science and international relations and the idea of a of

[Unknown]: chinese world order a tributary system that's all very peaceful and this is

[Unknown]: supposed to be historical all peaceful and china's at the center and it is like the

[Unknown]: moral leader of all these other little countries revolving around it like

[Unknown]: satellites

[Unknown]: and then you can have people in international organizations right now who will

[Unknown]: actually say this is historical which it isn't but because it is historical

[Unknown]: evidently this means everybody's used to it it's a good model for future relations

[Unknown]: in east asia and maybe around the world where we'll have china at the center you

[Unknown]: know everybody knows that in in chinese the name for china is the central country

[Unknown]: so this is why because it's gonna be at the center of everything so i i think most

[Unknown]: of the myths about china i think tend to revolve in that sort of direction

[Unknown]: and just in recent years we have had

[Unknown]: myths being actively promoted by the current government of china

[pj_wehry]: h.

[Unknown]: so that doesn't exactly help to

[Unknown]: dispel the effect of some of these things but on that point i guess i would just

[Unknown]: add it really is important for people no matter what they're speaking of they have

[Unknown]: to distinguish between

[Unknown]: china as a population let's say and the chinese communist party which is a very

[Unknown]: tiny portion of that population and the government of c jim ping which is even

[Unknown]: distinct in its way from the chinese communist parties so

[Unknown]: people who just say china this beijing that

[Unknown]: you know it can get to be a dead end because

[Unknown]: these are actually distinct sort of actors in in contemporary history

[pj_wehry]: it would be. Um. It's like Pe. when people talk about just the United States and

[pj_wehry]: don't take into account things mean. I live in central Florida. I used to live in

[pj_wehry]: Wisconsin and I used to live in Chicago, and I used to live in New England, and

[pj_wehry]: every single place

[Unknown]: is a different country

[pj_wehry]: was very different.

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: very different.

[Unknown]: that's right well going back to your point about it's all china just like the

[Unknown]: united states is hundreds of distinct societies and

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: it's really hard to say anything

[Unknown]: to make any sensible generalizations about him

[pj_wehry]: If you wanted someone to understand and I understand you always have reductionism

[pj_wehry]: is really hard to do like it is really hard to stop. right. wait, we have an hour,

[pj_wehry]: a little, maybe a little over an hour worth of time here.

[Unknown]: right

[pj_wehry]: If you had to communicate what was most important about China history, what

[pj_wehry]: moments would you share with somebody or what themes or what mix of those two

[pj_wehry]: things?

[Unknown]: wow

[pj_wehry]: And if that's

[pj_wehry]: what are some of your favorite moments? Maybe perhaps that's perhaps that's the

[pj_wehry]: easier question. or maybe that's harder.

[Unknown]: well this is that moments thing that's really hard i mean i guess the first thing

[Unknown]: that i would want to impress upon people and i maybe i do this in my classes i hope

[Unknown]: i do is that um

[Unknown]: what you need to know about china is the changeability the the ways in which there

[Unknown]: have been very very very dramatic changes in the ancient times in medieval times

[Unknown]: and in modern times

[Unknown]: and you know china is i think one of the the few countries which um people

[Unknown]: generally attach this idea of unchanging nests right oh china you know it's had

[Unknown]: government it's had the similar government for three thousand years and you know

[Unknown]: confucianism five thousand years

[Unknown]: no i mean none of this there the china is is changes and i mean radical changes all

[Unknown]: the time including within the last couple decades so that would be the first thing

[Unknown]: i would try to

[Unknown]: kind of knock loose right from people's assumptions

[Unknown]: the first thing you've got to know about china is constantly changing and radical

[Unknown]: deep changes in every way economically culturally

[Unknown]: demographically

[Unknown]: moments

[Unknown]: ah

[Unknown]: well

[Unknown]: i think

[Unknown]: one of the moments to kind of think about cause i i have been writing about this

[Unknown]: very recently was um

[Unknown]: i think everybody knows about the opium war they know something about the opium war

[Unknown]: they know there was an opium war

[Unknown]: and

[Unknown]: that it's all caused supposedly by the fact that

[Unknown]: britain wants to import opium into china and

[Unknown]: the ching empire which is ruling g china at the time doesn't want that

[Unknown]: and

[Unknown]: i think one of the moments is when the ching government sends commissioner lynn

[Unknown]: who's this famous figure who was given really plenty potent powers to go down there

[Unknown]: to guo to the city of canton where the british were and essentially make them stop

[Unknown]: importing opium

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: and make the british the chinese merchants who were helping the british import the

[Unknown]: opium make them stop doing that

[Unknown]: this one guy he came with a very small entourage and just goes in i think that that

[Unknown]: moment you know you really think about he was a very very interesting man

[Unknown]: very traditionally educated and yet uh and he had a he already had a long career as

[Unknown]: a kind of troubleshooter in china there were a lot of problems in china already in

[Unknown]: the one thousand eight hundred forty seconds and i think just that moment where he

[Unknown]: gets there right and he sees

[Unknown]: uh he doesn't right away but in a short period of time he sees the british ships

[Unknown]: coming there is a time when the british navy is you know nobody beats the british

[Unknown]: navy

[pj_wehry]: right,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: and he's he's trying you know this is this moment here's this huge empire the ching

[Unknown]: that has a long history of conquest behind it

[Unknown]: and now here we are

[Unknown]: what are we you know to just see like the future coming

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: at you right with these ships to just feel this thing that somehow i've got to stop

[Unknown]: this evil from occurring in my country and yet

[Unknown]: how will i do that i i mean that that's sort of i got to make this happen and yet i

[Unknown]: don't i'm not sure i have the power to make this happen and

[Unknown]: this is not a familiar feeling right for me as a ching official to think gosh i'm

[Unknown]: sort of helpless yeah i know what to

[Unknown]: and to think is there a way i mean he was actually because he was so resourceful he

[Unknown]: really did have a lot of ideas

[Unknown]: in the immediate future after eighteen thirty nine and then even a little bit later

[Unknown]: he had a lot of ideas about how we're going to do this he couldn't get people to

[Unknown]: listen right he was a one of these voices crying in the wilderness but i think that

[Unknown]: that moment there right where

[Unknown]: you have actually a number of really amazing figures in china in the eighteen forty

[Unknown]: seconds who were all on one side of this whole problem

[Unknown]: uh

[Unknown]: uh or the other right yeah

[pj_wehry]: hm, Hm,

[Unknown]: opium

[Unknown]: we're trying to get rid of it or we're trying to sell it and become extremely

[Unknown]: wealthy the wealthiest man in the world lived in was a chinese merchant living in

[Unknown]: hong kong at that time

[Unknown]: i think that moment and not for the reasons that

[Unknown]: many of my colleagues would look to it in china that the opium war is is the

[Unknown]: dividing line between modern and pre modern

[Unknown]: no i don't think that i don't think

[pj_wehry]: Okay, have

[Unknown]: i i don't think the west had you know that kind of an impact on china actually

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: and i also i don't think it's all about y you know that the great issues involved

[Unknown]: there are imperialism or

[Unknown]: you know opium itself

[Unknown]: i think the great issues there are this is one of those moments where

[Unknown]: a man is standing there his feet on the ground and he's looking at

[Unknown]: the future that he

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: that he can't

[Unknown]: prevent right it is it really is something i mean nowadays we fantasize this as the

[Unknown]: asteroid that's heading for earth and we can't divert it's that kind of a thing i

[Unknown]: mean he saw like an asteroid coming at china and

[Unknown]: couldn't divert it

[pj_wehry]: that's an incredible moment. Um, and I think the

[pj_wehry]: uh, you, you speak to an existential state that I think some of us even start to

[pj_wehry]: feel with technology even as you talk about seeing the future here. Um, my brother

[pj_wehry]: just bought an oculus. I'm not sure if you're

[pj_wehry]: familiar with them. Us, and uh, he's talking to me about. It. Wants a bring, and

[Unknown]: yes yes

[pj_wehry]: have me try it, and just this idea. that for decades now we have been uh, reading

[pj_wehry]: science fiction about living this virtual world, And now it's it's here,

[Unknown]: all right

[pj_wehry]: It's it's here. It's everywhere and it's in our living rooms, and I mean, not that

[pj_wehry]: we necessari would want to stop it. but

[pj_wehry]: I mean how would we right?

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: Um,

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: and so uh, that uh. it. I, I love that, because it it gives us that one that hope

[pj_wehry]: that we have faced these kind of existential moments and while they have created

[pj_wehry]: radical and dramatic changes,

[pj_wehry]: Uh,

[pj_wehry]: we didn't end there.

[Unknown]: well

[pj_wehry]: we didn't stop there,

[Unknown]: right

[pj_wehry]: Um, and also just that sense of familiarity and recognizing that it it is, it's

[pj_wehry]: something we have faced before.

[Unknown]: right

[pj_wehry]: It's something that as a human race we have continually

[Unknown]: right

[pj_wehry]: faced. Um. it was really powerful. so thank you. Um,

[pj_wehry]: as I, I was looking through the different topics that you cover. Uh. one of the

[pj_wehry]: ones that really stuck up to me. A lot of your work has to do with the imperial

[pj_wehry]: sources of Chinese identity.

[Unknown]: hm

[pj_wehry]: What are those sources? And why are they important?

[Unknown]: oh what now here we are back to your idea of all of this really being about

[Unknown]: everybody

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: this is very hard to summarize but i i think it it just make it simple

[Unknown]: a lot of the work i've done a lot and that i will be doing in the near future is

[Unknown]: really about

[Unknown]: um who told us in the twentieth century who we are right

[Unknown]: so we have anthropologists who are gonna tell us things like well

[Unknown]: you know we can identify groups on the basis of the language that they speak and

[Unknown]: who their ancestors are and what religion they're practicing um and whether they

[Unknown]: have a homeland things like that

[Unknown]: and

[Unknown]: in the late twentieth century historians did tend to absorb a lot of those kind of

[Unknown]: ideas about identity

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[Unknown]: on the assumption that well if the if the anthropologists are looking at it it must

[Unknown]: be like it's natural like people just woke up and they said oh yeah i'm you're

[Unknown]: speaking the same language as me well that that means we must be you know we're

[Unknown]: like we're the same and and those other folks over there speaking this other

[Unknown]: language they're just they're not us

[Unknown]: but actually

[Unknown]: no i mean sooner or later you have to ask yourself who said that this is how what

[Unknown]: identity has to rest on particularly national identities and so called ethnic

[Unknown]: identities

[Unknown]: and i no if you were to go back before

[Unknown]: uh let's say fifteen hundred maybe sixteen hundred in some parts of the world

[Unknown]: people are building their identities on completely different things

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[Unknown]: languages in the middle ages you had these universal languages for the islamic

[Unknown]: world for the christian world for the for the buddhist world i mean they had these

[Unknown]: universal languages that were nobody thought that because you're speaking some

[Unknown]: little local dialect that suddenly this is your identity right

[Unknown]: in the middle ages aristocrats had one identity and sort of surfs right had this

[Unknown]: other identity

[Unknown]: people weren't just going around saying

[Unknown]: yeah i'm italian you know i mean there's this there was this wasn't happening um so

[Unknown]: to me that was the question how do you get from that kind of a situation or even in

[Unknown]: the twenty first century when people will build identities on

[Unknown]: gender preferences or musical tastes right

[Unknown]: people will build like seriously identities on this

[Unknown]: that's a twenty first century thing it's very interesting but in the twentieth

[Unknown]: century that wasn't easy to do and in the nineteenth century you couldn't do that

[Unknown]: at all so my question was w why um and i used the ching period as an example

[Unknown]: of how this works right that these great empires the land empires of eurasia in the

[Unknown]: fifteen hundred sixteen hundreds

[Unknown]: in the course of these massive conquests

[Unknown]: actually generated institutions

[Unknown]: of identity description you know you you got it when you were born you might have

[Unknown]: some choices over your life about abandoning it or opposing it or internalizing it

[Unknown]: but the criteria were already there along with the institutions to create you know

[Unknown]: the incentive for you to sort of take this on as your identity and those identities

[Unknown]: are the ones that were bounded by language and religion and your homeland of course

[Unknown]: because these are overland empires they just spread out over people's homelands

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: these empires not only establish his criteria of identity i'm thinking of the ching

[Unknown]: empire in china the russian empire the ottoman empire they not only built up these

[Unknown]: criteria but they provided all the cultural resources in terms of histories and

[Unknown]: language prims and you

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: know everything you would need historical geographies so that the end of the

[Unknown]: nineteenth century when these empires are dissolving and everybody's saying well

[Unknown]: we're gonna have we're all gonna be around with this empire's gone so what are we

[Unknown]: going to base our government on

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: some of them could assume you know my identity is inevitable because here it is

[Unknown]: documented i've got i go to the library i show my kids the books the maps they

[Unknown]: understand

[Unknown]: we we are going to survive any state so the state collapses in and we are still

[Unknown]: here right well if you're the english or the or the french or the chinese right and

[Unknown]: this is this is fine we're gonna have a state based on us

[pj_wehry]: hm, yeah,

[Unknown]: they think that they're doing it

[Unknown]: in contravention of the empire actually the empire gave them these criteria and

[Unknown]: told them who they are and they

[Unknown]: have now internalized it now at the same time

[Unknown]: there are communities all over eurasia and in fact africa and americas at that time

[Unknown]: of people who did not never had identities that were supported in that way by these

[Unknown]: empires so they go into the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries without

[Unknown]: the historical geographies without the languages that have been institutionalized

[Unknown]: and standardized

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[Unknown]: and they do not

[Unknown]: have the presumption that their identities are inevitable and will survive the fall

[Unknown]: of these empires what's gonna happen to them is they're gonna end up living in

[Unknown]: somebody else's state

[Unknown]: and so

[Unknown]: you know jews in germany or muslims in china

[Unknown]: this is where we're getting to this great divide right and

[Unknown]: nowadays we call everything ethnic but in fact that was what ethnic meant to people

[Unknown]: like weber right in the twentieth century that

[Unknown]: it was these identities that did not have a claim to inevitability

[Unknown]: that in fact we're not gonna become national natural identities

[Unknown]: and i

[Unknown]: unfortunately in the twentieth century there was this sort of

[Unknown]: a portrayal of this by anthropologists as if this was natural

[Unknown]: everybody just woke up and you know this is the way people think

[Unknown]: but in fact my studies are china in fact i'm and now i've done russia as well

[Unknown]: looking at ottoman is shows

[Unknown]: how this happened how these particular criteria of

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[Unknown]: language and religion and homeland and and ancestry how those became sort of

[Unknown]: complex of identity that was actually told to us by these empires and it's a

[Unknown]: product of conquest

[Unknown]: and it isn't just some natural thing that people

[Unknown]: always drift back to you know if they

[Unknown]: um and you know as you know in the united states we have plenty of identities and

[Unknown]: yet we can all speak english and that you know that doesn't

[Unknown]: that make these identities impossible in any way

[Unknown]: but it took us a while to get there

[pj_wehry]: one. really interesting. Let me just restate this to make sure I'm tracking with

[pj_wehry]: you. So, in a lot of ways, this inevitability per se,

[Unknown]: hm

[pj_wehry]: um, came from the standardization

[pj_wehry]: of these languages

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: of these cultures in many ways that that whole idea of standardization was a tool

[pj_wehry]: for the empire that was doing it

[Unknown]: exactly

[pj_wehry]: so that they could create the empire. And that was just as important as the com

[pj_wehry]: quest itself.

[Unknown]: that is exactly right and that is so important

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, that's that's really interesting. because we, we do tend to think of

[pj_wehry]: ourselves in these nationalistic or ethnic senses that are seen as just uh,

[pj_wehry]: basically inevitable. Um. You've mentioned a couple examples, but if you don't

[pj_wehry]: mind, is there a favorite example of yours for for this kind of thing, Um, where

[pj_wehry]: the you know a particular insitution that you could maybe give us a more detailed

[pj_wehry]: example. Or uh, maybe a story that you think really demonstrates what you're

[pj_wehry]: talking about.

[Unknown]: well i can give you this i mean this is very sort of inside right but i mean my own

[Unknown]: specialization in the ching is this focus on this group called the manchus

[pj_wehry]: Okay,

[Unknown]: who are now on the internet this is fam i mean there's like this huge enthusiasm

[Unknown]: for manchu language and everybody you know people will write blogs in this you know

[Unknown]: um

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: it it's technically it may be a dead language it's certainly an endangered language

[Unknown]: but not on the internet you know it's got this his growing sort of um

[Unknown]: the manches are supposed to be the ruling of group right cultural group of the of

[Unknown]: the ching empire and there are plenty of historians from the past in effect now who

[Unknown]: would describe this as

[Unknown]: this is this identity that like mongols that they they lived out there on the

[Unknown]: frontier they were in the woods or wherever they were and then they burst out and

[Unknown]: they conquered china and of course then they went to live in china because they

[Unknown]: were occupying it but

[Unknown]: uh

[Unknown]: their identity survived and you know you have to think of w

[Unknown]: how did it surround them

[Unknown]: you was the thing of them being at home and speaking these languages and doing all

[Unknown]: kind of shamanic things and you know

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: and then when the empire uh

[Unknown]: falls away here's the manchus as somehow this coherent

[Unknown]: group

[Unknown]: like they were before the empire right this is what you're supposed to kind of

[Unknown]: think now in fact

[Unknown]: what we know about this is that um

[Unknown]: this name manchus was uh used as a part of the state sta building and the on out

[Unknown]: you know on the edge of the ming empire where the early

[Unknown]: rulers of the ching were kind of putting the whole thing things together this was

[Unknown]: an important part of their state building to actually come up with this name

[Unknown]: that they were going to give to

[Unknown]: their followers now

[Unknown]: people normally think that what happened was the name of another group got changed

[Unknown]: the manchu but in fact the population living there was already so diverse and

[Unknown]: already so kind of you know there were these spectra of of language use and

[Unknown]: religious affiliation and you know what people did for a living

[Unknown]: people were on this on the spectrum and it wasn't really just monolithic group so

[Unknown]: it't i don't think really a matter of changing one group's name to another this was

[Unknown]: a name that as an aspect of state building was given to

[Unknown]: these this population which was a military population okay so we go to china

[Unknown]: conquer china and we distribute manchus all over china for purposes of occupation

[Unknown]: right they kind of like policemen they're kind of like the national the guard and

[Unknown]: there they are and they live in these compartments

[pj_wehry]: forgive me. What what time period are we talking about Here?

[Unknown]: oh seventeenth eighteenth nineteenth centuries now the court realizes okay we took

[Unknown]: these people we distributed them all over china what happens when you migrate right

[Unknown]: when you move somewhere where you're the minority and they're the majority well you

[Unknown]: start talking like them you start

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[Unknown]: eating like them right

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: you start doing what they do for fun and so on the emperors don't want this because

[Unknown]: all the

[Unknown]: occupiers will disappear they evaporate that would be the so they're insisting

[Unknown]: speak this language

[Unknown]: um read this language this is your language right um now while the court is saying

[Unknown]: this this is your language this is your language actually

[Unknown]: these all these occupiers are learning to speak the local chinese dialect and you

[Unknown]: know this is not their language

[Unknown]: so the to the court has to say how can we make it come true that this will be their

[Unknown]: language so the court becomes a sponsor of language standardization the emperor

[Unknown]: himself is sitting there correcting you know when they write they send little

[Unknown]: reports to him or request and

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[Unknown]: they have to write in manchu language

[Unknown]: which is usually not their own language

[Unknown]: and then he'll he corrects it red ink actually and sends it back to them and make

[Unknown]: them correct it send it back you so no dialect words uh no grammatical errors

[Unknown]: you're going to get

[Unknown]: this note from the emperor and you know maybe a little bit of you know your pay

[Unknown]: doctor for a little while the court is publishing what you need to study the

[Unknown]: language the primers at the same time the court is making the language very

[Unknown]: standard

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: and in fact sort of imposing a kind of you know basic english kind of rules on him

[Unknown]: here's the outcome of this

[Unknown]: today people like me

[Unknown]: who study this period in history

[Unknown]: we have a very easy time of it

[Unknown]: because the emperor wanted the manchus to learn the manchu language and

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: he was determined to make it possible for them to do that no matter what so today

[pj_wehry]: Mhmm,

[Unknown]: we can study the manchu language exactly as the manchus did in the nineteenth

[Unknown]: century and we've got all of the tools for that that we need right in the meantime

[Unknown]: languages are dying all over the world because nobody ever wrote him down nobody

[Unknown]: ever standardized them

[Unknown]: and it is also true that

[Unknown]: there weren't as many mongols it wasn't as urgent a thing to do the same thing for

[Unknown]: the mongolian language and so today although mongolian script and manuscript are

[Unknown]: very close together mongolian has a very difficult language learn because it never

[Unknown]: got subjected to this ideological program right of standardization

[Unknown]: so

[Unknown]: it's kind of you know modern standard arabic in some ways is a little bit similar

[Unknown]: because arabic has been so important as a medium of instruction and communication

[Unknown]: between muslim communities which are probably the most widely dispersed across the

[Unknown]: world and

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[Unknown]: everybody's got their little language but in order to

[Unknown]: keep the community together they've got standard a standardized arabic that

[Unknown]: again can be learned right by other people so

[Unknown]: i mean i these are some of the effects and it's kind of a funny and ironic one in

[Unknown]: my own field that the emperor was trying to you know impose this kind of you know

[Unknown]: demand upon his army and as a consequence people like me today

[Unknown]: you know we have a very easy time learning the language

[pj_wehry]: that is. that's really fascinating and I assume that this would be part of it. Did

[pj_wehry]: they make it that they attach a moral language

[pj_wehry]: to learning the language correctly?

[Unknown]: moral language in the sense of

[Unknown]: what

[pj_wehry]: Uh, let like, good and evil, like, like, uh, It reflected on your character as a

[pj_wehry]: person?

[Unknown]: yeah i to me probably the most critical thing was the ability to convey um

[Unknown]: political values right so loyalty to the emperor and what makes a good emperor and

[Unknown]: and

[Unknown]: what are the highest ideals right you have to have a peaceful society prosperous

[Unknown]: society and all i mean being able to express all of that

[Unknown]: in a very standardized way and in the case of that empire because it was

[Unknown]: multilingual

[Unknown]: these

[Unknown]: expressions connected to value had to be something that would translate really well

[Unknown]: across all three of the languages and if they didn't that's where the court would

[Unknown]: be stepping in and making sure there's a lot of publishing going on to get people

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[pj_wehry]: Hmscinating and I, I kind of want to apologizecause. I understand some of it and

[Unknown]: to understand

[Unknown]: these terms as equivalent to each other

[Unknown]: and things like this happened also in the other multilingual empires

[pj_wehry]: you've done a great job

[Unknown]: w

[pj_wehry]: of this is.

[pj_wehry]: of this is.

[pj_wehry]: uh, youve dug into uh, Chinese history, and I basically as you to summarize five

[pj_wehry]: thousand years of history in an hour, which is just a ridiculous request. I

[Unknown]: oh but we didn't do that part yeah

[pj_wehry]: appreciate your patience,

[pj_wehry]: but the uh, so I, one of the there are a couple things, especially as we face uh,

[pj_wehry]: more modern and contemporary problems. I want to ask about what do people need to

[pj_wehry]: understand in order? Uh, and that would best help them understand, Uh, the

[pj_wehry]: Chinese and Japanese relationship.

[Unknown]: chinese and japanese my goodness well um

[Unknown]: i i mean china has a much longer documented history you all know i wouldn't

[Unknown]: personally say five thousand years but that's okay the official the official line

[Unknown]: of the si j pin government is seven thousand years

[pj_wehry]: Okay,

[Unknown]: because that would predate the egyptians and

[pj_wehry]: oh, right, got it,

[Unknown]: that's that's really important um there's no evidence that anything that we would

[Unknown]: recognize as china was going on seven thousand years ago but

[Unknown]: that's the line i to me thirty five hundred years about right but in the case of

[Unknown]: japan you know it's the first documentation

[Unknown]: the kind of narrative right relating to japan actually comes from chinese documents

[Unknown]: of

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: the third century so let's say it doesn't go back further than that

[Unknown]: i i'm not a specialist on japan but i've studied a lot of japanese history i did

[Unknown]: teach it very briefly and you know there's this idea that has been partly promoted

[Unknown]: by china that well the thing about japan is they never really had their own culture

[Unknown]: and all they did was just kind of glam onto these things from china and maybe some

[Unknown]: in some cases change them a little bit but

[Unknown]: uh they didn't come up with anything of their own um that's that' actually not true

[Unknown]: and the the distribution across east asia not just japan but also korea vietnam and

[Unknown]: so on of things like the writing system that clearly has its origins in china

[Unknown]: uh the political philosophy

[Unknown]: particularly social hierarchies that also

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: probably has its origins in china

[Unknown]: you know certain kinds of technologies

[Unknown]: that is true

[Unknown]: those things move all across the continent and they moved into these other

[Unknown]: countries

[Unknown]: and i think a lot of it had to do with prestige of the kind of rulership that was

[Unknown]: introduced in china and the third century bc but it's limited right so in the case

[Unknown]: of japan

[Unknown]: japan never

[Unknown]: centralized before the tie

[Unknown]: before the end of the nineteenth century it never centralized in the way that china

[Unknown]: did at times at times china is very centralized at other times it's totally

[Unknown]: fragmented

[Unknown]: japan was always pretty much fragmented the the role of the aristocracy was

[Unknown]: continuously important in japan it was in china it would rise and fall depending

[Unknown]: what kind of you know dynasty we're talking about i think in japan there was a very

[Unknown]: small elite was lived with this consciousness that

[Unknown]: the important things for us are coming from china in terms of the things that give

[Unknown]: us prestige we know how to use chinese characters that came from china that makes

[Unknown]: us prestigious in japan

[Unknown]: you know buddhism didn't did not come to to japan from china came from korea but

[Unknown]: it's associated with the mainland and again it's something that we brought it in it

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: gives us prestige here but you know came from over there

[Unknown]: but

[Unknown]: at the point at which these importations

[Unknown]: would impinge upon the basics of social organization in japan or certain kinds of

[Unknown]: very strong elements of the folk religion which

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: much much later was called shinto right

[Unknown]: much much later was called shinto right

[Unknown]: that's the point at which

[Unknown]: these things are not these these importations lose their power so i think you know

[Unknown]: japan has always had a very distinctive identity for me the critical thing in doing

[Unknown]: modern history

[Unknown]: is that in the nineteenth century when japan had this amazing period in the the

[Unknown]: meiji restoration right i mean they just this these incredible

[Unknown]: men um putting this all together and japan then gets on to this you know really

[Unknown]: astounding trajectory of mechanization and militarization and and um

[Unknown]: that's the point at which it becomes a threat to china and in fact

[Unknown]: by the time you get to the end of the nineteenth century japan is actually the most

[Unknown]: important impediment

[Unknown]: to china's continued independence and prosperity that's how important japan came

[Unknown]: it came to be in a very short period of time

[Unknown]: and i

[Unknown]: i think this is a difficult thing because when people tell you that period they'll

[Unknown]: normally go on and on about

[Unknown]: imperialism meaning european imperialism and and the

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: americans are supposed to be part of this and so on but

[Unknown]: and imperialism there was a kind of modified form of imperialism in china but it

[Unknown]: was never as important as

[Unknown]: this rise of japan and the japanese

[Unknown]: determination

[Unknown]: to expand their control over the mainland

[Unknown]: starting with korea but the ambition was ultimately would be china and all the way

[Unknown]: up to the second world war uh that that

[Unknown]: persisted

[pj_wehry]: yes, yeah,

[Unknown]: yeah and today even though the relations are very very different

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: the chinese government always uh takes advantage of any opportunity to remind japan

[Unknown]: those horrible things that you did to us in the

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: world war two which were horrible they were horrible

[pj_wehry]: oh, very

[pj_wehry]: yesh,

[Unknown]: yeah and um

[Unknown]: you know not all japanese are willing to acknowledge that but enough of them are

[Unknown]: that

[Unknown]: you know this is not something that

[Unknown]: um

[Unknown]: one would

[Unknown]: in a totally honest way right make the center of your discussion it's it's

[Unknown]: historical

[pj_wehry]: uh, and to be Ho, some of that even came. Uh, that question kind of came from a

[pj_wehry]: place. Uh, you know, I, uh,

[pj_wehry]: through my teen years grew up in Wisconsin. Uh, it's like ninety five, ninety

[pj_wehry]: percent white. Uh, and then meeting and talking to Oh, when I went to college to

[pj_wehry]: uh, Asian students, Um, and discovering the animosity

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: between different you know, Chinese and Japanese, Uh, Korean and Japanese, Korean

[pj_wehry]: and

[Unknown]: yes

[pj_wehry]: Chinese, and Uh,

[pj_wehry]: So A. And, and just trying to understand the the roots of that Uh,

[Unknown]: well

[pj_wehry]: because for them it's expressed it, it, it was expressed very differently. It's

[pj_wehry]: not really a historical thing like we do not like Japanese people, or we do not

[pj_wehry]: like Chinese people, right.

[Unknown]: right

[pj_wehry]: So I? what? what are the uh in? So I mean, you've mentioned some of it. Obviously,

[pj_wehry]: I. It's pretty easy to figure out Uh, World War Two, but it became clear talking

[pj_wehry]: that it wasn't always just World War Two, And I think what you said about it that

[pj_wehry]: kind of level of competition right, Uh, and that watching what for them would be

[pj_wehry]: considered a backwards country. Uh, for trying to see what they would consider a

[pj_wehry]: backwards country all a sudden, accelerate so quickly.

[Unknown]: yeah i i mean if you um

[Unknown]: yeah i mean just as a as a funny anecdote i mean when i was very young and

[Unknown]: a guy of of chinese heritage you know said to me i said i was interested in

[Unknown]: studying japanese language and he said

[Unknown]: oh it's just a g j degenerate form of chinese

[Unknown]: and in fact this is this turned out to be that this was this this individual's

[Unknown]: attitude towards all of japanese

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: culture all the japanese people they're just this is uh

[Unknown]: you know i don't know what what can you do about these kind of attitudes

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: people seem to need them right so if you took them away from them

[Unknown]: it probably wouldn't work but you know then what would they do i mean they be leave

[Unknown]: them as is helpless kind of you know flailing around person with a so some people

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: need to have this sense of superiority but there definitely there are attitudes in

[Unknown]: china that the japanese all they ever do is imitate things so they imitated chinese

[Unknown]: culture for a long time and then they started the aksing culture and the blah um

[Unknown]: that's got absolutely nothing to do with history those are just attitudes that have

[Unknown]: come up in china i think but you know you said apart from world war two but in fact

[Unknown]: i'm not sure you can do that i really think that it's the world

[pj_wehry]: fair,

[Unknown]: war two experience that locks this in right or

[pj_wehry]: yes, yes,

[Unknown]: that i mean really

[Unknown]: before the nineteenth century china and japan did not have a lot of direct contact

[Unknown]: you know there was this war in this at the end of the sixteenth century over korea

[Unknown]: and there was a very very bad war but as a general thing

[Unknown]: um and the and the the tokina shogunate in japan actually closed the country right

[Unknown]: so that they weren't allowed to go to china and you know get any trouble but of

[Unknown]: course that's not that's just a rule that's nothing right so the japanese were the

[Unknown]: pirates they were they were

[Unknown]: you know

[Unknown]: all over the place so but i think so there were there were reasons to be

[Unknown]: contemptuous of the japanese right as pirates as imitators as a but that's just the

[Unknown]: fuzzy folk ideas that people have i think it's the

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: world war two experience

[Unknown]: that is what's behind this animosity that

[Unknown]: and in korea particular korea was subjected to a very brutal form of colonization

[Unknown]: direct colonization by japan

[Unknown]: the whole country right

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: whereas in the case of china you know little little parts of it but even though

[Unknown]: that was very very brutal so i think this is the problem japan went fascist in the

[Unknown]: thirties and

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: japanese fascist militarism

[Unknown]: i just you know attacked

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: korea and china and these were i mean now we're talking about people's great

[Unknown]: grandparents but

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: when i was in college these were grandparents right

[Unknown]: in some cases parents maybe who had a come in at the end of world war ii so it was

[Unknown]: within living memory right that these things that happen so it's convenient right

[Unknown]: anytime you decide you just really you have to hate on somebody

[Unknown]: you can always recall those experiences from world war two it's not only the

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: japanese who become the focus of this there are certain other groups who also can

[Unknown]: get dragged into this depending on where you are in the world

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: but when you point out to people you know this is almost three quarters of a

[Unknown]: century ago

[Unknown]: um

[Unknown]: if it's useful it's useful people will stick with it

[pj_wehry]: yeah, and I think you know,

[pj_wehry]: I think as we kind of wrap up here, I, I think you. you've drawn some interesting

[pj_wehry]: conclusions there for our listeners.

[pj_wehry]: What would you say? Um is the biggest lesson that you've learned studying the

[pj_wehry]: history of China, and you mentioned about the history of

[Unknown]: well

[pj_wehry]: Russia, But just studying the history of China. What's the biggest thing that has

[pj_wehry]: enriched your life?

[Unknown]: ah enriched my life enriched my life

[Unknown]: the biggest thing i i know with you're getting really difficult now there's so much

[Unknown]: you know when you get close to you get into you know your studies of chinese

[Unknown]: literature culture and so on

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: there's so much that is enriching i i think

[Unknown]: you know americans can very easily relate i think to

[Unknown]: this chinese sense of self sufficiency right

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: uh they were on their own for a long time the empires basically work like this

[Unknown]: you know we make you pay your taxes once a year but other than that you know you

[Unknown]: you take care of these things so families extended families little villages were

[Unknown]: all they were doing it themselves

[Unknown]: and when the chinese became

[Unknown]: migrants right to other countries this same self sufficiency nobody's gonna do this

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: for me i'm gonna i'm gonna have to do this i think americans really relate to that

[Unknown]: um when they deal with chinese on a personal basis and i think chinese relate to

[Unknown]: this in americans when they when they find it this sense that i'm going to take

[Unknown]: care of this nobody else is gonna do this for me this you know i'm gonna do this so

[Unknown]: i think that this resiliency this sense of initiative the sense of self sufficiency

[Unknown]: is what's at the bottom of what we call chinese culture but it's at the bottom of a

[Unknown]: lot of cultures

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: so then you relate to that

[pj_wehry]: thank you, and uh,

[Unknown]: well

[pj_wehry]: I don't want to miss this opportunity

[pj_wehry]: to ask you, cause I think is one of something that you hit on quite a bit. the

[pj_wehry]: word inevitability and how we think things are inevitable, but they really aren't.

[Unknown]: right

[pj_wehry]: Do you think there's a lesson for our audience both in how they look at history

[pj_wehry]: and how they look at themselves. Um things that they assume are inevitable, but

[pj_wehry]: really aren't,

[Unknown]: well i think what history does show you is nothing is actually inevitable i mean

[Unknown]: we're talking partly about a mental habit of historians which is they they want to

[Unknown]: tell you not now we nothing's inevitable and we don't want to do the tele thing we

[Unknown]: want to go back to the point when everything was possible right

[pj_wehry]: Hm?

[Unknown]: but in the twenty first century you know we tend to think in terms of of quantum

[Unknown]: mechanics right and so what we're really talking about are these collapsing wave

[Unknown]: functions right as we going so before the collapse of the wave function you know in

[Unknown]: the period of superposition

[Unknown]: everything is possible um but once the wave function has collapsed then it is what

[Unknown]: it is

[Unknown]: so

[Unknown]: uh

[Unknown]: yes i i don't think um

[Unknown]: we talked about this i i talked about this recently on another podcast ba i just

[Unknown]: this would be very brief one time to try to get this across to my students about

[Unknown]: causality

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[Unknown]: i had this card trick that's actually i didn't tell them it's based on an algorithm

[Unknown]: and what you do is you kind of try to get this other person to think that you're

[Unknown]: reading their mind because you go through a sequence of cards and they are

[Unknown]: supposedly the ones who only they know where they started you know and then each

[Unknown]: number the card determines the next one and so on and only they know what card they

[Unknown]: finish with

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: but in fact when you're following along all you have to do is is you know every

[Unknown]: sort of five cards it doesn't matter where you start your the chances are four out

[Unknown]: of five you'll end up on the same card that they will

[Unknown]: now to me this is causality this is is nothing about these cards any of these cards

[Unknown]: that is determinative in itself but their position in relation to each other

[Unknown]: and their relationship to the overall size of the deck and so on so to me what it

[Unknown]: suggests is that

[Unknown]: overall

[Unknown]: the chance are something maybe not four out of five you'd have to scale it up to

[Unknown]: the universe right from my car if it to do but you know there's some some chance

[Unknown]: some likelihood that things are going to be more or less the way they are no matter

[Unknown]: what

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[Unknown]: so i think it's a nice antidote to the people who say everything is contingent and

[Unknown]: it's like one little decision made by this person here there the other place is

[Unknown]: somehow rather going to change history

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: i think the chances are let's say twenty percent that it might

[Unknown]: but the chances are eighty percent that they won't

[Unknown]: so

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: on this inevitability thing i mean that's more less why i would come out uh think

[Unknown]: in terms of super positioning and then collapsing wave functions and

[Unknown]: we'll probably be about where we should be

[pj_wehry]: I. I like that because it like there are those chances for Um, these radical kind

[pj_wehry]: of changes and sometimes those radical changes look radical, but they aren't

[pj_wehry]: right. They. They were buried in the patterns all along, but uh, there are chances

[pj_wehry]: for change. but uh, we have to also just reconcile ourselves to that. A lot of

[pj_wehry]: things are what they are, and uh, think that's a,

[pj_wehry]: or they will be what they will be.

[Unknown]: well you know even after i make this demonstration for the students i say haven't

[Unknown]: told you anything because you don't know what is in the twenty percent and what is

[Unknown]: in the eighty percentage so always do the right thing

[Unknown]: no matter what

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah, um, really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Doctor Crosley, it's been

[pj_wehry]: a real pleasure having you.

[Unknown]: very nice talking to you