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People from Luxembourg are quite familiar with the country’s discreet approach when it comes to blowing its own trumpet at the global scale. Despite its relatively small geographic print, the Grand Duchy punches well above its weight on the world stage!
This podcast is here to shed light on Luxembourg’s global influence from the perspective of two Luxembourgers living in London.
Ever wondered who and what is shaping Luxembourg? This is your Lux Unplugged podcast with your hosts, Adrian and Thierry.
Speaker 2:Hi. I'm Adrian. Welcome back to another episode here at Luxembourg. In this instance, I get together with Anton Clasen, CEO at Bernad Massa. Bernad Massa is a well known sparkling wine brand in Luxembourg.
Speaker 2:Most people outside of the Grand Duchy wouldn't know that the main river in the east of the country called the Moselle is surrounded by a myriad of wineries with world class reputation. An important player, not only locally, but also internationally, Antoine walks me through the roots of this 100 year old family business that's adapted and growing substantially over time. Known as Creemont in Luxembourg, the sparkling wine produced by Bernard Massard and distinctly recognizable thanks to its yellow label, is a top selling product in many key regions, some of which actually were quite surprising to me when discussing this with Arton. Of course, you might wonder how is this Luxembourgish winemaker competing with big names such as champagne, for example? Well, you have to tune in to find out.
Speaker 2:I'm sure listeners will appreciate all the anecdotes and have to find Bernard Massard over more than a century. Today, this family business produces over 3,500,000 bottles a year, which it predominantly exports to a growing number of international markets. But now without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Anton Clasen, CEO at Bernard Massach.
Speaker 3:Anton, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4:Hello. Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 3:It's our utmost pleasure to have you on the Luxembourg Podcast. So we have a very established tradition on this, on the show. So before we set the scene or before we actually dive into the core of the topics, the audience and myself, actually, we like to know who we're talking to. So for the context, would you be kind enough to introduce yourself to our audience?
Speaker 4:Well, my name is Antoine Claussen. I'm, Luxembourg, obviously, and I'm, running a wine company in Luxembourg called Bernard Massage. Bernard Massage is a family business that was created a 100 years ago, and I'm the 5th generation running the company.
Speaker 3:Straight to the point. I like that. You you didn't join the business straight out of university. Right? So you made your mark, so to speak, so you kind of gather more experience outside of it.
Speaker 3:So, my main interest or my key question to you is, what did you learn actually? What was your process before you joined the family business?
Speaker 4:Well, for me, it was important to to gain some experience in in other fields. As, as I I said in the beginning, it's a it's a family business, and and I think it's very important when you when you join a business like that that you have some experiences, firstly, elsewhere and then secondly, abroad. I mean, Luxembourg, you know, when you grow up in Luxembourg, you go to school in Luxembourg, and then you work and die in Luxembourg. So very interesting. So, I decided to make, you know, my own my own first step of a career.
Speaker 4:So I studied abroad first, and then I I I went working to the finance industry, which I thought was an obvious choice as a Luxembourger, but then I quickly realized it was made for me. I started in banking, and then I I switched to, to m and a, actually. And I did that for 2 or 3 years. And then I came to a point where I said, now I have to take a decision. Do I want to do this forever?
Speaker 4:Do I you know, I was working for PwC. It was quite important to, to take, yes, some some important decisions and say, okay. I wanna move up to that or or I could do something else. And then came kind of an opportunity. We are we are pretty pretty strong in in the Belgian market, and, at that time, it was around 2010.
Speaker 4:We switched importers in Belgium, and they were looking for someone, to take over the brand to to rebuild it in Belgium. And and the importer called me and said, Antoine, do you know someone who would be interesting to do it? I I'm pretty sure he knew who he wants to have there. But, for me, it was quite interesting because it allowed me to join the family business without working here immediately with my parents. So I could do a few years like that in in in Brussels, which pretty nice, before deciding to get to come back to the to the business in Luxembourg.
Speaker 3:Out of interest, what was it the expectation from your family that at some point you joined the business?
Speaker 4:Well, you know, actually, I I think they hoped I would come back or some someone of the family would come back. I have a brother. But for my brother, it's pretty obvious that he wouldn't join. He he decided to become a lawyer, and and he pursued that path. And for me, there was never pressure.
Speaker 4:Right? So my parents always educated us in a way that they said, do what you want to do. But if you want to join the business, well, you have to be to have the skills or at least the competence to to to join us. But it was no pressure. No.
Speaker 3:So, essentially, are you do you only member from your generation now in the business?
Speaker 4:I am. I am. I have, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5 cousins. Five cousins and a brother, and, I think they all all of them liked the company, but no one wanted to join.
Speaker 3:Well, at the end of the day, it's it's always it's one of the questions later, but, you know, keeping a family business a family business, entails also maintaining some some presence from the founding, family. So it it totally makes sense, but, yeah, I I I have stories of other people. You know? Either members wanna go their own way or they they happily rejoin to keep the tradition. But going back to Bernard Massach, so as you mentioned in the beginning, it's, it's the business has been around in Luxembourg for a 100 years, so it's quite a strong performance, given that in a lot of business, you know, it's it's a challenge to to maintain them for a few years.
Speaker 3:Now 100 years is is definitely an achievement. But for the again, for context and for people for the audience outside of Luxembourg, I mean, a lot of people know Bernard Massa in Luxembourg, but just for the benefit of obtaining an an all rounder. So how would you describe the history of, of this company and, yeah, just give a bit of a bit of a bit more flavor in that respect.
Speaker 4:Well, it's it's quite an interesting story, actually, because it's, the the founder obviously was not. But he was he was a guy from from Luxembourg called Jean Bernard, and he was actually working in Champagne. And during the First World War, he decided to come back to Luxembourg and to create his own winery. And and why was that? Because I think it's it's a time where a lot of companies were actually wine companies were founded.
Speaker 4:We came out of the first world war. Before the first world war, most of the wines that were produced in Luxembourg were actually exported to Germany. We had a trade agreement with with Germany allowing us to freely export our wines without, paying taxes. So so they would use Luxembourg wines to make sparkling German wine. With the end of World War 1, Luxembourg was there with wine.
Speaker 4:They didn't really know what to do with it, and Jean Bernard had the idea of reproducing reproducing what he had done, in champagne. And and that idea was produce champagne in Luxembourg, obviously, even though we're not allowed to call it that way, because we're not in Champagne. We're in Luxembourg. He had this idea, but he really didn't have didn't really have the money to do it. So what he would what he did, he went to all of his friends, and some of his friends were actually, my great great grandfather and his brother.
Speaker 4:The one was a doctor. The other one was a lawyer. But, the doctor also was, passionate about wine and, vineyard. He he had his own, domain for many years dating back to 18/18/56 or something like that. And so he decided to join Jean Bernard in his in his, undertaking, along with another 100 people.
Speaker 4:So it was actually Jean Bernard was kind of a, you know, crowd funder for his time because even today, we still have a lot of nonfamily shareholders, which is challenging. But luckily, they're they're pretty minorities, so it's it's quite okay. Yeah. So so that's how my family got in. For the name, I just for for the little story, Jean Bernard married missus Massard, called Anne Massard.
Speaker 4:And at that time, you know, we came out of the war and was very posh to have a French sounding name. Well, was not very sexy. You know? So so what they did, they put the Bernard and the massage together, and it sounded a little more French. So that's for the beginning of the of the company.
Speaker 4:Unfortunately, Jean Bernard died only 2 years after founding the company in 1923, and that's why my family actually took over. So, at first, was my great great grandfather, then came my great grandfather until the 2nd World War. He died in 46, to be precise, and that's when my grandfather took over. So, Carlo, he was very young. He came back from the war, had no experience.
Speaker 4:I think he was 22, 23 years old. And, he had to take over a company that was partially destroyed by war. So we had in winery, we had the German no. Sorry. The Americans.
Speaker 4:And on the other side, we had the Germans. So you can imagine how how the winery looked after after the war. So this is actually quite an important time of our history because it's time in the beginning of the fifties where my grandfather decided to sell most of our vineyards. And why did he do that? Because we we needed money to rebuild the winery, and we decided to switch our business model from being a producer to being what we call a negociant.
Speaker 4:Negociant is very common in champagne as well. It's where you buy grapes from other producers and then you produce the wine. So we continue we still do that. But in the 19 eighties, when my father joined, we were able to buy back some of the some of the vineyards that we, had sold around our hometown here in Greimanjar. And over the years, we were able to buy back more and more of those vineyards.
Speaker 4:And and today, well, we're much more than that, but we we own around 40 hectares of vineyards.
Speaker 3:And you are just just for the put things in perspective, so you are the biggest winemaker in Luxembourg now?
Speaker 4:We are not because we have, well, to be a little bit technical, we have 3 types of producers in Luxembourg. You have the the small product producer who usually has between 6 and 12 hectares. So the private producers, you have around 60, 6 0 in Luxembourg. Then you have a big cooperative. They own more or less half of the vineyards, which represents 650 hectares.
Speaker 4:And the entire population is 1,300 hectares, more or less. We are the biggest private owned, wine producer, and we belong to a third category, which is called, as I said before, the negociant. Although we are a little bit hybrid because we buy grapes from other produce, but at the same time, we own our own vineyards. So, yes, in in terms of ownership, we we must be one of the biggest in Luxembourg. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And from, actually, from a branding perspective, how how do people know you? What what what differentiates you from, like you said, the 2 other types? You know, what what would people know about that?
Speaker 4:I think the big difference is that we have always had an approach where the brand was very important. So we we put a lot of marketing into the brand. For smaller producers, they are mostly known because of their wine or because of their friends and, you know, and families and the people around them. I think we we we always focus on being a globe not not a global brand, but, yes, one of the one of those brands that you remember, which which is pretty rare in in first in Luxembourg, but also when you look at, how Luxembourg export its wines, we are kind of an exception. Most of the wine that's produced here is actually consumed locally, and and and we we export 50% of our production.
Speaker 4:So so I think that's the main difference. We always put a lot of effort on promoting the brand, maybe more than the appellation, maybe more than the problems of the of the of the wines.
Speaker 3:Actually, you were just mentioning export because, again, you say it's it's it's important to have marketing that, that supports your your brand. And and I would imagine you you also have to adapt that to each export market that you you sell into. And that's well and again, for the benefit of the audience, when we had an offline conversation, I remember you saying that, Finland is one of the biggest or if not the second biggest after after Luxembourg, which for me was, I have to say, quite an unexpected name. I mean, not unexpectedly because of they they they like drinking, but more unexpected in terms of destination. So, no, it's it's a very good thing because, I mean, Finland was certainly not not on my radar in in that sense.
Speaker 3:But how did you just can you remind me? How did you manage to penetrate that market and become so prevalent in that sense?
Speaker 4:So so to to to go back a little bit in history, and to be very, for the sake of clarity, the our main export market is Belgium. And that that goes back to the foundation of the company because the the founder said, if you want to grow, Luxembourg is too small, so we have to export. So so what they did, they they immediately tried to penetrate the Belgium market, and we've been present there for for almost a 100 years. That's why we're also very very known there. Today, it represents 30% of our income today, so it's it's quite quite a lot.
Speaker 4:After that comes Finland. Absolutely. So Finland is our 2nd export market. We've been there for 28 years, almost 30 years now, and so we joined the market in 1996. And how did it come to that?
Speaker 4:I mean, that it's quite funny because my my father tried to to enter Finland for many years, but he didn't really manage to get in. And I have the same situation in Sweden now because I tried to get in Sweden but stay hot. Why? Both both markets are pretty similar because it's something we don't really know here. Those markets are state monopolies, meaning that the state is the is the only one allowed to sell alcohol to private consumers.
Speaker 4:So it looks like a wine shop, right, but it is state owned. To get into those shops, it's really hard. So you have to have a tender that is specific for your country or your type of product, and then you are in competition with many, many, many producers from around the world. And so so for Luxembourg, it's potentially impossible to get in. However, in 96, lux oh, no.
Speaker 4:Not Luxembourg wasn't in the EU, but Finland joined the EU. And, the minister at the time wants to have a product from every wine producing country in their in their state monopoly shops. And he remembered that he'd met my father. So came out a tender that was really designed for us. I mean, they were looking for sparkling wine from Luxembourg with a yellow label and a red top.
Speaker 4:You can imagine who we did. And so that's how we got in, but it was not enough. I mean, getting in smart you know, in in the 1st years, we sold, like, a 1,000 bottles anyway. Well, we we were happy because it was a 1,000 bottles, but it was it was pretty marginal. And then came a second thing, a coincidence.
Speaker 4:It's, Fin Air, the the local airline, decided to to list us on their flight. So we we were on every flight, of Fin Air, and people, you know, became received a little bottle of Banham Sal for free. And they associated with this with with their holidays. And many of them liked the product. So they went they went to the shops, asked for for the product, and the people said, oh, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. The the shop said, yes. Here it is. And and we had a a sympathy factor for our lives. You know?
Speaker 4:So so there there was some momentum that was created. And then the third effect was that we had very positive press over there. And, you know, in Luxembourg, when you have a journalist writing about a wine, your sales are not really impacted by it. But, in Finland, when when the right journalists write something about you and it's positive, I think the entire country runs into the shop and tries to to to have that wine. And that's exactly what happened to us.
Speaker 4:So we grew, and every year, we doubled our sales. And today, it represents more than 350,000 bottles. So we are we are in the top ten most selling products of of Finland. And we have for for the legal history as well, we have we've had many success stories in Finland over the years. And recently, our our new Cuvee, the organic the organic sparkling wine, was selected best sparkling wine of the year by by a very, very known newspaper and, and that boosted our sales like crazy.
Speaker 4:So it's it's quite quite fantastic how that how the little country where an even smaller country has such a success story.
Speaker 3:And you were saying for Sweden, which is just a neighbor country, a Nordic country, it's not the same. Right? It's not not the same. People haven't got the same affiliation to it, like the the Fins.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. I I you know, we have a lot of Swedes that that live in Luxembourg, and then when they go back to Sweden, they want to find the product because they liked it. And then and then I get calls and me emails as to where can we find it and and yes. So I I tried to get into that monopoly for, I don't know, 5 or 6 years now. And, and we've had many very good contacts and and and tastings with the monopoly, but they never know how to where to put us, you know, in what category they put us.
Speaker 4:So, I always say put us in sparkling wines with the others. It's okay. We can't compete. But, yes, I think for now, we have to to work, yes, on on, a little bit more on on on making them, believe in the product. And it's tough.
Speaker 4:It's challenging.
Speaker 3:In a wider sense, are you now is is your stance more we are further developing the existing markets or you're really trying to sort sort I mean, organically grow existing markets, or you're really trying to expand globally with, like you said, with the yellow label?
Speaker 4:Yes. Yes. We do. We do. It's we we we we actually try to to consolidate some of the markets, but some of them are very mature already.
Speaker 4:You know, when you're in the top 5 in Canada of most selling products, it's hard to to grow. You know? The voucher is we are we are at the top in Quebec. So so now we're trying to to to go more into Ontario and British Columbia, which is, you know, which are equivalent of of countries for us. Right?
Speaker 4:So so, if if we could, expand there, that would be fantastic. Other markets that I'm targeting are the US because it's also a very big market, but very, very difficult for us as a Luxembourgish company to enter because no one knows where Luxembourg is. And if they know, they they know it for our finance industry and and much less for our wife.
Speaker 3:I suppose in, in bigger markets, like you said, like the US or or other ones where Luxembourg seems to be a little bit more remote for geographically speaking, I've always wondered, how does a company like yours position itself to compete with more established names? Well, you you mentioned earlier, Champagne. I mean, obviously, Champagne is the the the most famous name, but it's it's, yeah, it's actually the name of a region. But, a lot of people can refer to that because I'm not sure that actually a lot of people know that champagne is a region, but they know champagne is a drink that, you know, what they produce very expensive for sparkling wine. But how do you position yourself in that in that sense?
Speaker 4:It's a very, very good question, and it's one of the questions I am asking myself every day. Yes. You you talked about champagne. Champagne is very interesting case because it's, it's probably the most famous brand in the world, in in the drinks industry. Everyone knows champagne.
Speaker 4:Everyone knows what champagne is. Everyone knows that it's magic, that it's expensive, and it's probably good. And so it's very hard to compete against that. The advantage we have that we are we are the first alternative to champagne. We're more affordable.
Speaker 4:And, again, very often, I I don't play so much on the appellation because when I say cremein in some countries, it's not positive. In Luxembourg, it's very socially accepted that you that Cremont is good, and that is I think we we consume more Cremont in Luxembourg than we do consume champagne, for instance. But in other markets, like in France, we talk about Cremont, it's, you know, it's a bit tough. In Nordic markets, it's okay. But there, again, I said in the beginning, again, we position ourselves much more as brand than the manipulation.
Speaker 4:Competing with others, champagne, it's very hard to compete with because they're in another price segment. I would I would say they're in another league. Of course, you do have accessible champagnes, but it's not really the ones we compete with. The ones we compete with are maybe the French in a lesser extent, but then, mainly the Spanish and Italian sparkling ones. You know, it's if if you take a country like Belgium, for instance, Cava was very, very popular.
Speaker 4:I think it was Cava is a Spanish sparkling wine. Right? For a very long time, Panama style was the alternative to Japan. When you thought about sparkling wine that was not champagne, you would buy vermesan. Then came the the kava, and kava exploded.
Speaker 4:And it became much more socially acceptable to to drink something that was sparkling and was not champagne. So it's been a tough competition for us. We tried to because we were, you know, we were in between seats. We were we were in between the colors, which is, like, the cheap stuff, and then in between the champagne stuff that was very expensive. So that that's tough to find your position there.
Speaker 4:Again, how did we do it, and how did we perform presence marketing wise in in newspapers, with influencers, with journalists, with a lot of events where we're, you know, trying to be close to people, and that kind of work, and especially in Belgium. For instance, a very good example is during COVID. We we we had an exceptional growth in many of our export markets. One of the reasons we how we try to explain it is that people were looking for something more qualitative, so something, you know, better. They want to spend more, but not necessarily very, very, very much more.
Speaker 4:And that's where, you know, we were like in French, we say. I don't know if you have an equivalent in English, but it's like it's like it's like gold. You know? It it's a safe haven. You you you know the brand?
Speaker 4:The brand has has, it it it procures you some security. And and there, I think, in the beginning, people bought it because it was a little more expensive. Then they taste it. They liked it. And that's the second effect.
Speaker 4:More than marketing, I think the quality of our project is very important, because that's the only thing where we can compete on the on the on the global level, because there are sparkling ones from everywhere. But one thing is to get people the glass in their hand. The other thing is when they drink it, they have to like it. And so we never make compromise on quality. That is something, that is very unique for us.
Speaker 4:We are, I think, very competitive. And when you go to Canada and you go to shops and you ask for sparkling wine for good value, it's crazy, but they would always recommend Bernardo. So that's where we, you know, that's where we try to be very high quality and accessible price.
Speaker 3:I presume you're still you're producing still using Luxembourgish cost inputs. Right?
Speaker 4:Unfortunately, yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, for those that are not familiar with Luxembourg input costs, they are a tad higher than, than Spain's, for instance. But but actually, that that leads me to another question, and you'll forgive me, Anton. I'll ask 2 questions at the same time. But to compete with Spain, but Spain is based in a in a country which is warm.
Speaker 3:And again and and I'm touching slightly upon the the climate change topic because, I mean, also something we discussed offline. But with seasons that are becoming less predictable and with harvesting becoming more erratic, how do you wanna tackle or how do you see this strategy going forward? Because presumably, those countries where it's cooler, they will be still be able to produce more than I mean, it's it's a basic assumption that I'm making. It's it's becoming less and less predictable for winemakers to, you know, to maintain their volumes at least. But for people, you know, for regions that are now becoming that are up upcoming, like England, for instance, where where I'm based, you've got a lot of people buying up land because it's, yeah, it's diff different conditions, so bet better, but cooler than Spain.
Speaker 3:So is that something that you you're looking at? So number 1, is how is climate change influencing the way you you want to produce your your wine? And 2, how do you see that as a is that potential, like, a competing advantage in the longer term?
Speaker 4:Climate change has a big effect on how we how we grow, how we produce, how we source our wines. Because as I've said before, we we have our own menus, but we also buy grapes from other producers, which which allows us to to arbitrate a little bit and and to be less dependent on on climate influences, here in Luxembourg in particular. But, yes, of course, it's it's a very it's a hot topic. Right? It's a it's a hot topic.
Speaker 4:I think we have a big chance with that our wines get much riper, which was not necessarily the case before. But it's small. I think it's more relevant for steel wines than for sparkling wines because sparkling wines, you need less maturity so you can harvest a little earlier. And depending on where you are, even in Spain, you could you you know, if you harvest a little bit earlier, it's still okay. Where they have a a big problem is with, you know, with with their red wines.
Speaker 4:The further north you go, the better, it will be suited for for for sparkling wine. So climate change helps us now in Luxembourg. I think in the eighties, in the seventies, or or even further back, it was very hard to produce good wines here. Now now we have to challenge ourselves to produce wines that are not overripe. You mentioned the the, the fact that England is not producing quite a lot of wines, especially sparkling wine as well.
Speaker 4:It's when when you look at the map, it's it's not that far in terms of height, of of the Champagne area, and you have a similar soil. So Champagne being very, very expensive today, I think many French producers also position themselves in in the south of England. I think of a few brands like, Port Marie, Frankel, and then you have, and and I think even Bolliger bought quite a lot of land out there, because they bring the expertise in in an area where the land is not as expensive in as in Champaign and climateally pretty pretty close. Maybe a little more rainy than in paint, so that that might be a challenge for them. But, it's it's really interesting how how it evolves, and I would say Luxembourg benefits from it very much.
Speaker 4:I hope that answers your your your questions correctly because you had 2 questions in one that maybe I I forgot one part.
Speaker 3:Yes. So that answers my my question, and, I it it was difficult to to ask just one question and, so I thought, you know, could potentially combine into into 1, but, yeah, brilliantly answered. So so, but but given all those inputs, given all those facts that, winemakers have to kind of shift around or or get more land outside of their comfort zone. You will still and this is one of the biggest things that one of the big topics that we discussed with other guests that are that are producers in in Luxembourg is, again, the the made in Luxembourg label is important to them because it's it's I I would imagine it sustains or supports their branding themselves. So
Speaker 4:Yes. Well, the Made in Luxembourg, I think it's a very good tool. It's really important here in the greater area. As soon as you talk big exports far far away from Luxembourg, it's a little less important. And I regret it.
Speaker 4:Honestly, I regret it. I'd really love to, to have more impact with that. But I think here in Luxembourg, it's very, very important, and and we are putting it on all the bottles that we have. So and all the communications and and and, you know, we are very proud to be in Luxembourg and to and to produce like that. But to answer the other part of your question, I could have grapes from, from the other side of the model and still have the bag in Luxembourg.
Speaker 4:I mean, if I buy the grape if I get the grapes from from the other side of the mezzanine, I bring them here, and I do the entire production here in Luxembourg. So it's still made in Luxembourg. Consider consider ArcelorMittal or Buffeting. I don't know if you talked to Buffeting, but the hope that they produce with their beers doesn't come from Luxembourg. The steel that we use for our solar metal, it's not produced in Luxembourg.
Speaker 4:The tobacco that you use for Heinz Ferdinand cigarettes don't come from Luxembourg, but it's still made in Luxembourg. Right? So to that I think the know how that we have in in in producing the end product, is located here, and it's really important. And then, and that's what we focus on very much.
Speaker 3:Do you feel like that the for instance, is the Luxembourg government still friendly to companies like yours? Our previous guests have said that Luxembourg is not necessarily a hasn't got a an industry friendly policy, and it depends on a lot of other incentives for people to come in and produce in Luxembourg. But do you agree I'll ask you the question differently, Artur. Do you agree it's important to be a Luxembourg er to produce stuff in Luxembourg?
Speaker 4:Not at all. No. No. No. We have to track people to Luxembourg.
Speaker 4:You know, I'm I'm involved in a lot of federations in Luxembourg. And and when I travel, I'm probably one of the biggest ambassadors of Luxembourg. So, you know, I talk about Luxembourg all the time. And sometimes I I do agree with you. I think that politicians are short minded and that they they have a little bit lack of vision, for our country.
Speaker 4:Because we have the finest industry, and it's it's a cash cow, and it works really well. And, but you don't have to kill the cow. You know? So that's really important to keep it alive. But I think you have like, in everything you do, we have to to integrate some diversification in in your industry, in your economy.
Speaker 4:And recent years have shown that we've a little bit forgotten not to do that in Luxembourg. Right? We have, we have some some bad examples. And I hope that, you know, elections are coming up, so I hope that politicians will, again, focus on that topic again. Really obvious examples.
Speaker 4:We had IKEA. We we didn't have IKEA in Luxembourg. Right? They wanted to come to Luxembourg, and the mayor of the city at the time, who who is today the foreign foreign affairs minister, he didn't really want to have IKEA in his commune, in his in his town, so, he said no. And IKEA went 3 kilometers further and and established in in Belgium.
Speaker 4:And now and now every Luxembourg goes to IKEA in Belgium. So we are we are too small to be to to be like that. You know? We have always been open minded people. We've always been very attractive, and I think we we should not forget that.
Speaker 4:And and looking forward, we we want to attract new new activities, new, new businesses, and also industry. I mean, it's not enough to bring in green fine tech PIP tech. Sorry. It's it's also important to, yeah, to have some some more established companies. It gives also credibility to the country where the big name comes to Luxembourg.
Speaker 3:But do you think it's possible? Is that is that even a prospect? Again, because Luxembourg has got high labor costs. Luxembourg I mean, there's many other benefits, but, Luxembourg is do do you consider Luxembourg competitive at that level compared to other neighboring countries?
Speaker 4:On salaries, it's maybe less competitive than other countries. But when you we have when you want to establish a company here, you have an objective. Usually, it's not for, heavy industry with low low wages. I think you would would go with something, that has more added value. And then you have something really interesting.
Speaker 4:You have a cosmopolitan country. You have also many countries touching the country, people coming from abroad, living abroad, coming to work to Luxembourg. So you have exceptional know how. You have, probably very good people there. And, of course, I think you have some some incentives that could be tax incentives, subsidies, and and very, very stable political environment that would be very interesting to for a lot of companies.
Speaker 4:So I think I think we are competitive. Maybe maybe on the financial point of view, again, on salaries, it's tough. But when you compare it to France, Belgium, which is which is maybe not as high, but then you have, corporate tax that is higher. You have social security, etcetera, etcetera, that are that are much higher in those countries. So so, yeah, we we are competitive.
Speaker 4:We are competitive. We're very attractive. We are very cosmopolitan again. So so I think, Luxembourg is still a good destination, but our politicians need to to push it even more. Or or be coherent with what they say because they want to have companies, but when they come, their local politicians can stop it.
Speaker 4:And that that's where we we need to find the balance. And and, also, the left hand has to talk to the right hand.
Speaker 3:Just one more thing about, Bernard Massard. So, again, in summary, so company's been around for a 100 years. You are the 5th, 6th generation. You said 5th 5th generation. There's not that many family run businesses in Luxembourg that are still run by the especially the Luxembourgers and, and from the from the founding family.
Speaker 3:So my question to you, Antoine, is if someone wanted to create the business and and project themselves in the next 100 years, let's say that way, what's the lessons that that you give them? Yeah. What will be your best your best way to approach it to make it a very, you know, long lasting business?
Speaker 4:It's very, very, very interesting question. This goes beyond the company. The company is one thing, and this the company show should in in in that perspective should be the the important thing. How to how to make the company survive. Very often when you create a company, you work it up, it works well, then you pass it on to the 2nd generation.
Speaker 4:2nd generation is still motivated. They build it up. They build it up. Usually, there are not a lot of, a lot of, people from the family in in the 2nd generation, maybe 2, maybe 3, you know, the kids. But then comes the 3rd generation, and that's where it gets more difficult.
Speaker 4:That's when the children have children. Because the further you move down the tree up the tree, sorry, the further the more, people you will have that are not connected to the business, who see that business flourishing, and they don't really have a link to it. They say that, but how can we live from that as well? And then it becomes challenging, you know, because there there will be people who who who want their share of of the company. And, and then you will have splits, and then possibly, it will be sold or people will have to to, make some some debt to pay out the others.
Speaker 4:And that's challenging because then you are in situation where the financial viability of the company is compromised. And it becomes diff more difficult more difficult with with the next generation and so on. So I think one of the key factors of success is try to keep the shareholding as concentrated as possible, which doesn't mean that, every generation should buy out all the others. But at least you should organize you have you should have a a governance within the family that allows you to keep everything together. I think that's that's that's an important thing for a family business, quite specific.
Speaker 4:And then I don't say that it is necessary that someone of the family runs the business. At some points in history, it can very well be that no one is fit to run the company. And then you have to realize that, and then you have to be to be rational and say, okay. There's no one of this generation who can run it. So let's take someone from the outside who will who will control through governance or or we will be on the board, but not necessarily operational.
Speaker 4:Luckily, we didn't have to do that yet, but I know a lot of other business family business have done that and very successfully. That's a very difficult part of the family business. You have to separate the emotional part from the rational part. And, you know, it it sometimes, it's just difficult because you leave the company, you go home, and you bring the business home. And, on the Sunday lunch with family, you talk about the business because it's far part of family.
Speaker 4:So you have to be quite, yes, quite cautious to to to keep that balance that balance, upright. And then if someone of the family comes in, I think they need to be aware of what they're doing. They need to have the competence to join the business, and they really would need to be motivated by what they do. I'm not saying passionate because passionate is a word you use for everything. Okay.
Speaker 4:Obviously, I am passionate about what I'm doing because I love this business, and I love wine, and I love, everything about growing wine and and and consuming and sharing and selling wine. But you have to go in that business and say, okay. I I want to leave I want to leave something behind for the next generation. And that's you know, when I when I plant, Wienerds, I know I don't plant them for myself. I plant them for for my children.
Speaker 4:I plant them for my grandkids. And that's something I find exceptional about my business.
Speaker 3:For self promotion, for for you to have a an opportunity to promote deliver your business and to maybe encourage other people outside the family to, to become part of the of this journey, What, what would you tell any prospective candidates if they wanted to, be part of the this exciting company?
Speaker 4:I think it's it's pretty it's pretty unique because, you know, I travel a lot for for in the wine world, and I see a lot of producers, and I see a lot of, small producers, big producers. And I think we are we are at crossways of those different types of companies. Usually, you are either big or very small, and we are everything. We produce 3,000,000 bottles of sparkling wines a year, but I also produce 1200 bottles of a single, single vineyard recently. I do, 10 barrels of red wine with my own feet.
Speaker 4:You know? So, I think that is what is super interesting in my business, in my company. You have you have that flare of a big company, and you have that that fantastic aura of a small demand. And it's very versatile. It's also something you don't have a lot, especially when you're from Luxembourg.
Speaker 4:It's that we have a very deep root deep very deep roots here in Luxembourg, but also all around the world. It allows you to meet people from very different cultures who are all interested in one product, which is wine. And and wine, as such, is an incredible catalyst for social cohesion. You know? So it's you you rarely drink, on your own because you're sad.
Speaker 4:Well, it happens, but, it shouldn't be, you know, majority of times. Usually, it's you share about the words, trends, and and or people you want to share with, and then have good moments, and you remember what you have and and and what you and what you lived that day. So that that is something I think is absolutely exceptional in my field of work.
Speaker 3:Well, excellent. On this, happy note, Otto, and I'd like to thank you for taking the time to, to chat to me today and and walk me through, the exciting story of Bernard Masard and, of course, the joy of of of drinking it. So certainly, I look forward to having you back on the show. And, yeah, all the best with the promotion of your products.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much.
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