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In this episode we dive into the growing pressures placed on both kids and parents in the world of youth sports. From early specialization to the constant drive for success, the stakes can feel high—but how do we know when the balance has tipped too far? We’ll discuss the expectations placed on young athletes, how parents can manage the demands without losing sight of their child’s well-being, and how to recognize when it's time to step back. Most importantly, we’ll explore the importance of letting your child lead the conversation about their passion and involvement in sports. Tune in for thoughtful insights and practical advice on supporting your child while keeping the joy in the game.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.803)
Hello and welcome back to the Shrink Down. As we're heading into Super Bowl week, a lot of people have sports on their mind. And so we thought, what would be more appropriate than bringing up youth sports? We're all kind of in that season right now in our lives where our kids are kind of at that age where they're engaging in youth sports. So today we're gonna be talking about the impact that participating in these youth sports have for children, adolescents, and also for parents. And we'll also be referencing Linda Flanagan's book, Taking Back the Game.
as well. So before we get into today's topic of youth sports, let's do our four minute faves. Who wants to start today?
Teri (00:38.734)
I'll go. Mine is, and if you're watching this, you can see it. It is, the brand is Oath House. It's called Granola Butter, but it's, I don't think it actually has granola in it. Maybe it does. But it's, this is the cookie dough flavor. There we go. Which I've only tried this one. This is my third jar that I've bought. They also have brownie batter and vanilla flavor.
Wilhelmina (00:39.109)
You
Lauren (00:39.251)
Very.
Vanessa (00:39.727)
Okay, what are you
Lauren (00:54.239)
Bye.
Wilhelmina (00:56.865)
yum.
Lauren (00:56.915)
Looks delicious.
Vanessa (00:57.314)
Okay.
Vanessa (01:03.168)
Lauren (01:05.631)
you
Teri (01:06.882)
But I'm partial to cookie dough flavor. So I grabbed that. It's in the peanut butter aisle. I got it at Target about two weeks ago. So this is my third one in two weeks. It's not very big. It's pretty, I mean, you can see it's pretty small and it's really good. It's almost like a dessert dip, I guess. So I've dipped apple slices. I dipped graham crackers in it. My kids really like it. So like after an afterschool snack, I'll put a scoop of it with some graham crackers and apple slices and they just.
Lauren (01:08.297)
Yeah.
Vanessa (01:15.284)
Hahaha!
Lauren (01:17.673)
Yeah, yeah, that's time.
Lauren (01:34.281)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (01:34.522)
Nice.
Teri (01:35.244)
dip it, I'm also just eating it by the spoonful. It's really good. Huge fan. You can read and understand all of the ingredients on the label, which is very important. And I just really like it. So I'm very excited that it exists.
Lauren (01:38.16)
yeah. it's delicious.
Vanessa (01:39.135)
That's the way to do it.
Vanessa (01:44.654)
Always important.
Wilhelmina (01:51.298)
What is the protein content?
Vanessa (01:51.823)
What about the fiber? How much fiber is in there?
Lauren (01:53.843)
Yes, sir!
Teri (01:54.222)
It's not good. It's It's not good. Protein, it's only two grams and the fiber is also only two grams. It is not, it's just a tasty treat.
Wilhelmina (01:59.134)
no.
Vanessa (02:03.791)
Yes, that is just for your taste buds. Yeah, yes. That's good. That's important. Yes. That sounds so true.
Lauren (02:04.275)
You mean you're doing something just for the pure satisfaction of it? How dare you? Ooh, that sounds good. I'm going to look to that.
Wilhelmina (02:04.35)
bummer.
I know, it's true.
Teri (02:14.402)
But it's very good.
Wilhelmina (02:15.706)
But you could put that on a Kodiak waffle and then you get both.
Lauren (02:18.317)
my god. Let it go.
Vanessa (02:19.425)
my gosh.
Teri (02:20.298)
Exactly.
Wilhelmina (02:21.466)
Like, how can I get the protein in? Just like walk around with a little infusion of protein. It is, it really is.
Teri (02:23.619)
Yes.
Teri (02:27.244)
Yes. All about the Kodiak brand. That's a good way to get it in. So you're right. It would be a good pairing with Kodiak brand waffles, pancakes. make, usually once a week, I make a pancake sheet of pancake squares. Yes. And I'll throw in sprinkles and chocolate chips and then the kids can serve themselves breakfast on our hectic mornings because I cut them into squares and they just have to heat them up in the microwave. This would be very good on top.
Wilhelmina (02:39.519)
I haven't made that for a while. I love it. My kids love that.
Vanessa (02:49.679)
Good idea.
Wilhelmina (02:52.433)
we should actually share that because that recipe you shared with me is amazing. My kids love it. It is easy. It's so you just make it like the weekend before and it's great. Yeah, yeah.
Teri (03:03.81)
I'll make that one of my favorites and we'll share it.
Vanessa (03:07.289)
Lauren, what are you sharing with us today?
Lauren (03:09.353)
So a TV show that my husband and I just, we got through like in a week, maybe a week and a half, The Man on the Inside, is it The Man on the Inside with Ted Danson, A Man on the Inside with Ted Danson. Have you guys heard of this? It's on Netflix. It's so good. Do it. You can finish it in a week. There's just eight episodes, one season, maybe like 30, 35 minutes each are the episodes.
Wilhelmina (03:17.242)
yeah.
Teri (03:24.098)
Mm-hmm. Heard of it.
Wilhelmina (03:24.132)
I I've known a couple of people who have watched it and loved it.
Lauren (03:36.657)
It is adorable. If you are a fan of Ted Danson, it's like him in his prime. He is such a good actor. His acting is so good. It's like just a really good heartfelt, easy to digest comedy. And the premise is super simple. He responds to an ad from a private eye, private investigator looking into a crime in an assisted living facility. So he goes into that. It's adorable, highly recommend.
Teri (03:40.962)
Yeah, I like him.
Wilhelmina (04:02.36)
I love it.
Vanessa (04:05.517)
Awesome.
Teri (04:06.123)
Awesome.
Lauren (04:06.834)
Yeah, well let me know what about you.
Wilhelmina (04:10.409)
So mine is absolutely weather related because I have had the worst dry skin. I mean, I feel like just like as I've gotten older, it's been even worse. But in the winters, my skin has always been super dry. Growing up, I actually used to have a humidifier in my room during the winter months. But I kind of like, I don't know, I had forgotten about that. And my kids had them when they were young. But they're just a pain in the butt to like keep up maintenance wise because
you like take them out, it's just like mold and then to wash it. You can never get it clean. So eventually I'm like, I'll just throw this away. Like it's, I don't know. So I kind of had given up, but with that, my, moisture in my skin also gave up and I have just been like, there's not enough lotion, oil in the world. Like, so finally I was like, I need to get a humidifier. So I did some research online and found canopy humidifier. So it was one that I don't,
Vanessa (04:42.907)
yeah.
Wilhelmina (05:09.142)
know if it's sold in stores, but it's definitely like one of those online things. And at first I was like, is this one of those like things where you're just like, there's really good at advertising? so, but it got, it had some pretty good, you know, reviews and some big like names had endorsed it as like, this is a really good one. I guess even dermatologists had said it was a good one for your skin. And the best part, all of the parts you can put in the dishwasher. Yes. Yes.
Teri (05:16.686)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (05:16.723)
Yeah.
Lauren (05:34.079)
actually take out. amazing.
Vanessa (05:34.927)
That's nice. That's nice.
Teri (05:36.279)
Wilhelmina (05:37.357)
Any part that touches water can go in the dishwasher. And it's really easy. You can just use tap water. There's no like that thing you drop in, you have to wait, whatever. It's just super easy. It does have a filter that you have to change like every 45 days or something. And you can get a subscription. So it just comes to you every 45 days, which I already signed up for. So I don't have to think about it. I don't have it on my list. It'll just come, flip it out. And it also has this little
Vanessa (05:41.667)
I like that.
Wilhelmina (06:06.49)
place on the top where it has, you can put oil if you want for like a little scent, a little, I've done it with the one they sent and I actually think I'm gonna order some more because I do like it. It's just very mellow scent, nothing really potent. And it does have a red light and a night light as well as a white noise aspect to it.
Vanessa (06:11.055)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (06:35.449)
I don't use those because we have a white noise machine in our bedroom, so I don't need that. But if we didn't, it would be like a perfect kind of like all in one. And they have really fun colors. Like mine is like a lavender, purpley lavender. I mean, they have white and basic ones, but they have other kind of like, I think they have a green. So I love it. Love it. And it doesn't have, it's mistless. So it almost looks like it's not.
Vanessa (06:35.889)
that's
Wilhelmina (07:03.64)
My kids were like, where's the water? Why isn't it coming out? And so it's misless, which is nice.
Lauren (07:07.603)
No, that is cool.
Vanessa (07:09.625)
How big is it?
Wilhelmina (07:10.906)
It's on my bed, it's on my nightstand. So I would say it's a foot tall and maybe a little longer than a foot wide or not wide. I would say it's probably 10 inches and then long a foot. So it's like not huge. I love it.
Vanessa (07:22.607)
What fits on a nightstand?
Vanessa (07:29.741)
Huge, yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah, I need to get, I need to, keep saying that I'm gonna get one, because for all the reasons that you listed and I have not done that.
Wilhelmina (07:38.19)
I mean, I had been saying it for like months and then finally it was like, I don't know if I just like one time woke up and I was like, my God, I can't take it. I need to get some. And it has completely changed. Like my skin, it's normal winter dry, but it is not what it was. So it's absolutely helping, 100%.
Vanessa (07:44.829)
Yeah.
Lauren (07:45.599)
Moisture.
Lauren (07:57.097)
quit.
Vanessa (07:59.745)
Awesome. I know you guys are so excited. know. So I'm going to be talking about Thrive Market. So this is something we've talked about in our group text. So I know some of us are members. So Thrive Market for anyone who doesn't know, which at this point, I feel like a lot of people know about it because lots of influencers are talking about it. But it's one of those things that I feel like.
Wilhelmina (08:00.334)
Vanessa, what about you?
Lauren (08:00.521)
What about you?
Wilhelmina (08:04.194)
We all want to know, tell us!
Vanessa (08:24.267)
is legit because it's just it's an online supermarket is basically what it is. And they provide healthy options for just basically any product that you would want. So it goes down to like house cleaning products. We're just talking about candy that they have made now that are healthier versions of some of the ones that we kind of grew up loving, like Swedish fish and then snacks, seasonings, oil spray. So essentially anything that you were looking for at the grocery store, they have.
Teri (08:45.742)
Okay.
Vanessa (08:52.27)
And so you pay an annual membership fee and then obviously you pay for purchase the products. I just looked up what the current annual fee is and it's almost $60, it's 59.95. But I really like it. I get for me, I have friends who kind of buy everything there or specific things and the things that I like the most are snacks. So I buy, I would say 90 % of our household snacks from there.
Teri (09:13.144)
and
Vanessa (09:17.455)
Um, and then I do also, I would guess like the next two things that I buy often are like seasonings and like olive oil spray, coconut oil spray, those kinds of things. Um, I just like how easy it is. So you just fill in your cart and then it ships like whenever your, your auto ship goes in and then you can even set it up where things, you know, if there's something that you use quite often, it'll just kind of auto rate, like it just puts it in your cart every time, which I really like. Um, so can set it up. You can take things out. So if there's something you're like, I don't need any more of those, you kind of take them out.
Lauren (09:36.595)
Renew, yeah.
Vanessa (09:47.087)
But it's just a really nice, I think, option for just looking if you're looking for healthier foods and products that are better for our planet, better for our health. That kind of goes along with our topic from last week. And I was mentioning how overwhelmed I feel sometimes with all the things you should and shouldn't do. So I think this is just one of those nice ones. We still go to the grocery store for our kind of proteins and fresh fruit and vegetables. But it's just kind of nice to have this come to our house once a month.
Wilhelmina (10:00.346)
Yeah.
Vanessa (10:15.855)
these kinds of snacks and things. So yeah, that's what I'm sharing today. Do you guys have any favorites that you got? Because I know, Terry, you order from there.
Teri (10:23.232)
Yeah, we've done Thrive Market the last couple of years and we do a subscription and we have a lot that's on auto, mainly snacks. We do a lot of snacks, candy kind of treats, but their app I love. It's super easy to use. Have you used the app? You click around, you remove what you don't want, add in, and it has categories of new things you can try and I'll browse that and add stuff to the cart. It's very easy to use. I've been very pleased with the app.
Vanessa (10:25.903)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (10:32.067)
Yeah, that's what we do. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (10:37.889)
It is, yeah. Yep, that's how you do it.
Vanessa (10:50.115)
Yeah, you can search too, like if you want to do gluten free or if you're looking for specific paleo, whatever you're kind of into, you can kind of put that in your search and then it'll just bring up those things. Or protein, I've done a lot of like, I've searched protein, I'm like, what are my options here for protein? So it's a really easy, yeah, theory to use. And it has some really good alternatives. I found some really good snacks that I really, really love. There's a popcorn and I can't think of what it is, but they cook it in,
Teri (10:53.838)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (10:59.935)
Yeah.
Vanessa (11:19.591)
coconut oil and it's got the beige bag with the pink logo. Yes. It's so good. It's so good. have to try it. Well, you're the pop. You like to make your own popcorn.
Teri (11:20.897)
Lesser than lesser evil.
Lauren (11:23.446)
yeah.
Teri (11:24.94)
Yeah, yeah, lesser evil. Yeah, it's very good.
Lauren (11:25.865)
Yep. Yep. That's really good.
Wilhelmina (11:29.812)
I will have to try it.
I But I do like, you know, having it just made for me sometimes too.
Lauren (11:34.279)
Yeah
Lauren (11:38.025)
Cup Bags Treats.
Vanessa (11:38.627)
Yeah. And then the Chick-A-Boom, the kettle corn. I'm like dangerous. I'm like you with your butter there. I go through the bags. I have now decided I can only, I have to like measure out exactly like the serving size. And then I close the bag and I put it away. Otherwise I just am like continually eating popcorn. So, but yes. So Thrive Market, if anyone's looking for some healthy options, easier way to shop, I highly recommend. All right.
Teri (11:42.178)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (12:07.887)
So now that we've shared our faves, we're going to get in today's topic, youth sports. So I was actually just texting these ladies this weekend that we had a jam packed weekend with my daughter. So she doesn't have competitions every weekend, but it just so happened she does gymnastics and she does ballroom dancing, which is also known as dance sport. That's a very interesting story, how we got into that. But this weekend we had back to back.
Lauren (12:20.393)
Wow, you did.
Vanessa (12:37.167)
competitions, you know, and we're spending all this time traveling and whatnot. And so, you know, sharing that with everyone and then we just started talking about how, yeah, we're all kind of in that season right now. What are you guys, what are your kids doing right now? And it doesn't even have to be sports related, really, it's whatever kind of activities they're in.
Lauren (12:56.703)
So I've got one sport each. So we've got basketball and soccer right now, which soccer you wouldn't think in Michigan in the winter is a thriving sport, but it definitely is because of all of these private facilities, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit, that have popped up all over the United States. yeah, so we've got two things going on, but just one for each kiddo.
Wilhelmina (13:12.94)
indoor soccer.
Teri (13:25.004)
And we've got basketball, it's basketball season for both of my kids. And then wrestling, which just ended for my youngest, my seven year old. And he's also doing flag football. So yeah, we're in there right now.
Wilhelmina (13:30.871)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (13:40.474)
I am definitely the outlier within this group and literally all of the groups of my mom friends. So right now my kids aren't in any sports. My daughter right now is doing her middle school musical. They're doing the Greatest Showman. So that's kind of taking up, that really is just during the week, but once it gets closer to the end, it'll be the weekend of the play and dress rehearsal and such. And then my son is also doing
Vanessa (13:46.881)
Hahaha!
Lauren (13:59.455)
on
Vanessa (13:59.789)
Yeah,
Wilhelmina (14:10.478)
his elementary play, which just got started. Usually, we used to be sort of like one sport a season. Winter was always the tough one. so they've done skating in the past, but then not in the last year or so. So we don't currently have any sports that they're doing. And as I said, I'm definitely the outlier in all of my parent and friend groups with that one.
Lauren (14:34.707)
you
Wilhelmina (14:38.191)
But they haven't found one that they've connected to. That's the thing. And that's okay. And that's okay.
Teri (14:38.2)
Pony.
Vanessa (14:38.317)
I think that... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (14:40.991)
was gonna say, that's okay. And that's okay. The world would not have you believe that, but we know that that is actually okay.
Wilhelmina (14:48.023)
you
Teri (14:50.292)
You mentioned something, Wilhelmina, that is a very important point by season. When we were kids, sports were by season. Spring sports, winter sports, fall sports. Now, that was a huge adjustment for my husband, by the way, when we became parents. Regardless of where you live, what the climate is, your sport could be year-round, all season. If you
Wilhelmina (14:59.909)
Yes. Yep.
Wilhelmina (15:14.382)
Yep, like soccer in the winter in the Midwest.
Vanessa (15:14.393)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (15:15.391)
Mm-hmm. Saccharis. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well.
Teri (15:18.086)
Exactly, exactly, which is just a small part of the larger picture of how much youth sports have changed over when I talk with parents, not even definitely over the last 30 to 40 years since the 1970s. Right. Like Linda Flanagan, the author of Taking Back the Game discusses there is such a sociological aspect to how things have changed. But what I have noticed as a parent, things change dramatically.
Wilhelmina (15:31.022)
Yeah, absolutely.
Lauren (15:31.636)
for sure. Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (15:39.247)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (15:46.53)
when we were in college and in graduate school. The biggest changes started in the late 90s and the early 2000s when we weren't parents yet. We were busy launching our young adult lives. And in college, that is actually when things really shifted dramatically. It's when travel sports took off. It's when the whole climate around sports changed. So all of us were used to sports being a certain way when we were kids. And then things changed and now we're parents and we're having to exist and operate in this
Wilhelmina (15:59.173)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (16:16.403)
new world. Yes, exactly.
Wilhelmina (16:16.824)
in very different world. Well, and Linda Flanagan actually says she has many reasons why this has changed. But it's interesting you say like the when the change happened and she says Disney when they opened the wide world of sports complex, which was, and she said it was basically a way like.
Lauren (16:27.241)
Yeah.
Lauren (16:36.029)
Yeah. I thought that was so interesting. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (16:41.403)
Teens didn't want to go to Disney anymore. They were like, we don't want to go to Disney, it's baby. So they were like, how can we get teens to come to Disney? So they opened this wide world of sports and it worked. And it was so wildly successful that all these other places were like, well, let's open our own sports complex. And that was like the kickoff to like all of these places opening up private funding, all of these things, because I mean, who would have thought Disney of all things.
Teri (16:41.656)
in
Lauren (16:44.126)
Yeah.
Lauren (16:50.515)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (16:57.855)
Yeah.
Vanessa (16:57.903)
Yes.
Lauren (17:08.221)
Well, yeah.
Teri (17:08.526)
And that was in 1997. And it was one of the very few destination places that was 9-11 proof. Meaning when 9-11 happened, a lot of travel shifted for families for a little while after that, with the exception of that sports complex at Disney. And people paid attention to that. So what was happening, so it launched, I believe it opened in 1997.
Wilhelmina (17:16.29)
Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.
Wilhelmina (17:27.012)
Yep, yep.
Lauren (17:30.847)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (17:34.306)
And that means it became a tourism. Sports became a tourist thing because like that. So now you travel as part of it and, you know, different towns and tax dollars. And Disney started that because they made sports about sports, a tourist destination, literally a tourist destination.
Lauren (17:34.345)
Well, and she had, go ahead. Yep.
Teri (17:37.347)
Yes.
Lauren (17:52.413)
I thought the other thing that she mentioned that coincided with that, because she acknowledges it wasn't just any one thing, there are these couple of variables, was the sort of advent of 24 hours news cycle, or just increased awareness of what was happening in the world, specifically things like stranger danger, kids faces on milk cartons, now we're kids faces on the news. And it created this parental anxiety.
Wilhelmina (17:57.347)
Yeah, it wasn't any one thing.
Lauren (18:21.255)
like that she called it of parents wanting their kids to be in something not only structured but supervised. And so it started and Jonathan Haidt talks about this in his book as well. So again, all of these multivariables, but that parents started to not let their children engage in unsupervised play at the local parks as much anymore and were drawn toward
Wilhelmina (18:30.148)
Yes. Yes.
Teri (18:30.606)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (18:35.791)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (18:50.717)
these places developing structured, supervised sports programs. So all of that timing kind of went together to create this perfect storm that we're all in right now. That and the money piece, which she talked about.
Wilhelmina (18:55.898)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (19:03.642)
Money, money,
Vanessa (19:05.327)
She also talks about the shift you're talking about like the 70s and the change. She talks about how, you know, it used to be like, you know, it takes a village to raise a child and that shift to every family is on their own raising their children. And so a lot of this push towards, you know, having your child excel at something, particularly sports.
Teri (19:06.391)
Money piece.
Lauren (19:15.998)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (19:25.476)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (19:27.081)
is she's the term status safeguarding. like you're basically trying to set your kid up for success down the road and it's all on you and it's your job to do that. there's this mentality that that's the case. I think that that's, that's also something that plays into kind of why that shift has happened towards, you know, going towards these youth sports and getting kids involved.
Wilhelmina (19:36.43)
Yes.
Teri (19:38.126)
Yeah.
Lauren (19:38.879)
Right.
Lauren (19:49.631)
Well, within that, Vanessa and the family sizes become smaller over time as well. So it allows people to focus on their child and specialization and developing these really, really specific skill sets because they don't have as many kids.
Vanessa (19:53.376)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Vanessa (20:03.919)
Yeah. She said parents spend on average 20 hours a week. And I was like, how? And then I was like, wait. I know how. It's traveling to the sport, sitting, waiting for them, or volunteering. I know for us, when Everly has gymnastics and it's our facility that's hosting the meet, they expect the parents to volunteer. So you're going to be at the door. So there's all these.
Wilhelmina (20:03.929)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (20:15.61)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (20:17.538)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (20:30.328)
Yep. Concessions and yep.
Vanessa (20:33.454)
Right, or if you're taking your child to a private lesson, right? So all of these things, so 20 hours a week. It's crazy.
Lauren (20:39.145)
Well, and, and I believe it was her, although I do have another, a social psychologist that is also a coach that I'll talk about as well. But I believe it was Linda Flanagan that had said in the psychological benefits of sport, it max. And they, and it's really actually quite a bit less than that. So that was her that said that. Okay. It's really quite a bit less than that per week, but right around that 15 to 16 hour mark, if they go a
Wilhelmina (20:55.066)
16 hours. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Teri (20:57.719)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (21:00.623)
Yes.
Lauren (21:08.511)
above that amount of time in anything right per week, yes, per week, then the psychological benefit of engaging in that activity diminishes significantly. And so if you compare those two numbers, it doesn't work.
Teri (21:09.582)
per week.
Wilhelmina (21:10.691)
week.
Wilhelmina (21:25.166)
Yeah. Well, no, Terry, you go ahead.
Teri (21:26.467)
Yeah.
Well, I was going to say, in addition to that, the funding simultaneously, so all of these things happening, right? Family size shrinking, wide world of sports, Disney opening this facility, stranger danger, parents wanting kids to be supervised. In addition to that, general funding for parks and recreational facilities decreased significantly. And with the smaller family sizes, the average size of a family is two kids now. There's much more, the term she often uses is
Wilhelmina (21:48.27)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Vanessa (21:48.675)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (21:50.323)
interesting.
Teri (21:58.062)
pruning and cultivating. And I think that goes beyond sports. think it's however, parents are always weighing, doing a risk benefit analysis of a particular activity. Should I sign them up for this art class? Should we do this particular extracurricular? How is this going to benefit them? How is this going to serve them? And I think, I mean, there are parents out there, many parents who create profiles, they're creating profiles for their kids, for sports.
Wilhelmina (21:59.375)
Yes.
Vanessa (21:59.939)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (22:03.414)
Absolutely.
Lauren (22:03.583)
100 %
Vanessa (22:04.075)
yeah.
Wilhelmina (22:27.908)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (22:27.938)
kids who are minors as a way to advertise them and for them to have a social media presence. So the society that some parents are choosing to raise their kids in, it's become like a social contagion. it's, yes, I was gonna say that's, yes.
Lauren (22:28.029)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (22:42.991)
That's what she calls it. Yeah, Linda Flanagan calls it a contagion. She said, it's this anxiety, it's fuels. Like parents are doing it, but then the parents who are like, wait, but then they're like, but is that what I need to do then? Okay. And then they jump into it. And so it just feeds and feeds and feeds. And it is fear-based. It's like, like anxiety-based really. Like if I don't do this, will my kid be left behind? Will my kid not get into college? Will my kid? Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (22:43.517)
Yeah.
Teri (22:53.432)
This is crazy.
Teri (23:09.262)
Yeah.
Vanessa (23:10.255)
College is a big one she talks about. Yeah. She was also saying how, do you know if you're in too deep? And so her two things were if you're at a party and in the first five minutes you bring up the sport your child is playing, you're in too deep. And then the second thing is if you are, if you feel like you will be devastated by the fact that your child is quitting, that also means that you are way in too deep. So like that was her two ways of knowing you're, you've gone down the rabbit hole and you need to pull yourself back out of there. Yeah.
Lauren (23:11.753)
the college pressure.
Lauren (23:28.02)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (23:28.558)
Yes.
Teri (23:36.024)
Those are so spot on.
Lauren (23:36.179)
Well, right, absolutely. And even, I think she mentions in a podcast episode I was listening to that she was on, there's a increase in empty nest coaches of people that are now coaching, just pro, like they're finding their local programs, which we, we know are probably not recreational programs anymore. They're probably travel programs and offering coaching services because
Wilhelmina (23:36.292)
The... Yes.
Wilhelmina (23:48.655)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (24:04.939)
so much of their life, so much of their extracurricular time and activities were focused in on their kids' sports that when their kids leave at 18 and they have the empty nest, they don't know what to do with themselves because they don't have any of their own interests anymore. And she actually talks about that as one of the ways to sort of prevent getting yourself to that point, which is make sure you continue to have your own interests. Because really all of this, while there's all of these societal
Vanessa (24:13.423)
Mm.
Lauren (24:33.843)
pieces these variables that went into play over the last 30 years that have gotten us to this point it's the each individual parent choosing to engage in this weird hurricane tornado Storm that has been created. It's our we have the ability to step out. We have the ability to say no, I'm not doing this my gosh
Wilhelmina (24:43.61)
choosing.
Teri (24:55.32)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (24:58.924)
or lower the temperature at least. Turn down the dial a little bit. It's timely. talking about this. One of my favorite things to do at my kids' sports games is to sit and just listen to the dads behind me. It's awesome. True, true, true. That is true. At my fourth graders' basketball game over the weekend, one of the days, I heard a dad come up to another dad and go, hey, how you doing? You know, typical.
Vanessa (25:00.355)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Wilhelmina (25:00.824)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (25:11.349)
yeah.
Vanessa (25:12.085)
Hehehehehe
Lauren (25:13.053)
Well, there's some moms doing it too.
Wilhelmina (25:14.284)
Or the moms, I was gonna say or the moms. I know plenty.
Lauren (25:18.345)
love you.
Teri (25:28.47)
you know, yeah, exactly. And the one said, so is this his main, you know, his main sport? And the dad replied, I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. And that I thought within the first, within the first two seconds, I thought, why are you asking a dad of a fourth grader, a fellow fourth grader, if this is their main sport, which brings up this idea of specialization and over specializing and
Lauren (25:28.894)
We enter.
Wilhelmina (25:41.37)
Oh my God.
Lauren (25:41.567)
What you're embarrassing to listen to.
Lauren (25:54.985)
actualization.
Wilhelmina (25:55.362)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.
Teri (25:58.57)
It's there is so much data out there that we know about overuse injuries and top youth athletes do not make top adult athletes and on and on and burnout and kids quit. mean, she said there's a couple of different studies. It's either there's some studies that say 11 some stay 13. They're done. They quit. But parents know this. We're talking about it. They still have blinders on. They know it.
Wilhelmina (26:02.362)
tons.
Vanessa (26:03.023)
Yep. Don't do it. Yep.
Lauren (26:03.443)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (26:09.134)
Right. Yep.
Lauren (26:09.832)
I the burnout.
Wilhelmina (26:13.594)
11 to 13, right?
Vanessa (26:15.055)
Yes, 13. 13, yeah. Yep, yeah.
Lauren (26:19.675)
young.
Lauren (26:27.145)
Well, you know what, both Carrie? I'm like, we know it because we all have these conversations constantly with each other because it bothers us. We can feel there was, in that podcast episode, she said, if it sounds crazy, it probably is. I think that's us listening to our gut and our intuition going, this is crazy what we're doing, right? But I honestly don't think we're the norm.
Teri (26:27.95)
Or do they not? I don't know. What do you think?
Teri (26:34.552)
Yeah. Right.
Vanessa (26:45.005)
Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
that that's everybody, right, yeah, that everyone's feeling that way. Yeah.
Lauren (26:56.657)
I really don't. think we are the ones that take that step back and observe and listen and go, wait a minute, this is crazy. What are we doing here? And, but the cultural forces, it is really easy to get sucked in and act like it's totally normal to cancel your plans. had, and I, well, we had a, this, this happened to us this week. And I actually really, I adore my son's soccer coach. He's awesome.
Wilhelmina (26:56.749)
No.
Vanessa (27:13.903)
That's one thing she talks about, you should not do that.
Wilhelmina (27:16.43)
No, not Kim.
Lauren (27:26.763)
And Friday afternoon, there was like a notification that a new game was scheduled for Sunday night. And we, I know, love when that happens.
Wilhelmina (27:37.816)
Wonderful. That sounds fun. What do I want to do on Sunday night? I know.
Teri (27:40.29)
Sometimes, sometimes you, but sometimes you get less than 24 hours notice. That's my favorite.
Lauren (27:45.757)
we've had that take place too. And the amount of parents that act as if it's normal. Now, I get it. If you have nothing else going on, it's not that big of a deal. But that's also, there's something to be said about that. Like, do you not have your own interests? Do you not have anything else going on? And that's not to shame people that just had an open weekend, because of course that can happen. But we happen to have something going on with a number of other families Saturday night. And I mean, we agonized over saying no.
Vanessa (27:45.987)
Yeah. yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (28:00.505)
Right. Yeah.
Lauren (28:14.749)
Like we act, it was actually very difficult for us to say no. We did say no. We went to a family event. We were so glad that we stuck with what was important to us, but we had to actually stop my husband and I and have a conversation, like an actual conversation. are you like, are we good? We're going to say no. Is this like, do we think this is okay? Right. And like, that's, that's a little bit crazy. If it sounds crazy, it probably is. Right. A little crazy. Yeah.
Vanessa (28:39.727)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (28:40.443)
Well, and it's interesting because you had plans, but imagine you didn't have plans. But yes, because I'm like, but I don't like to make plans on Sunday night. Cause it's like, there's so much like we're getting ready for the week. We're getting groceries and the laundry folded and sort of getting that sort of like, okay, we're about to start. So we would literally have had nothing, but like then we would have felt that pull, but then we don't have the reason of like, well, we're not technically doing anything.
Lauren (28:44.211)
We did. We would have totally said yes. Nope, we totally wouldn't.
Vanessa (28:53.529)
Yeah.
Lauren (29:06.793)
Well, no, and this was Saturday. So we got the notification Friday. This was Saturday. So it was a 24-hour situation. But let me tell you, this happens a lot. This happens a lot. And the amount of parents that don't even blink an eye, and they're like, OK, cool. Let's go. Let's do more.
Wilhelmina (29:11.866)
24 hours, yes?
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (29:15.833)
Yeah.
Vanessa (29:21.891)
Yeah, we had, we, do gymnastics. And so they basically tell us at the beginning of the year, this weekend is when you're going to have a competition, but you don't know if it's Friday, Saturday or Sunday until two weeks before. And then, yeah. And then even recently she had, so this weekend we knew it was going to be Friday. We didn't know what time and it ended up being in the morning. And so she had to miss school and my husband and I debated very strongly whether or not we were going to take her out of school.
Wilhelmina (29:30.276)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (29:51.053)
because she is in theory in a competitive, she's on a team, it's a competitive, but it's supposed to be the team where you are able to explore other interests. So it's supposed to be not as intense because you are exploring other interests, which boggles my mind that there is another team where there's six, seven, eight year olds, nine year olds who are supposed to be specializing, right? And so.
Lauren (30:02.888)
interest.
Teri (30:03.662)
Hmm.
Teri (30:17.069)
There's a more intense team.
Wilhelmina (30:17.369)
that age.
Vanessa (30:18.681)
There's an intense version, right? And so, you know, so we were like, this is not the, this is supposed to be the like, you know, not so intense team, like we're, you know, and we kind of went back to her and said, you know, how would you feel if you didn't do this? And she said, I feel like I'd let my team down, which has clearly been a message she has heard, not from me, because my husband and I did not say that to her. And so we were like, okay, we're going to do this because they only have like five meets this whole.
Wilhelmina (30:34.446)
Mmm.
Vanessa (30:46.911)
year or third year. So we're like, okay, this is but you know, we're thinking ahead, like, is this something we want long term for her where we're going to be missing school to play a sport where we know like, she's, you know, we love our daughter dearly, but she's not going to the Olympics. Like, she's not. Not going. Right. But I don't think people think that I think people think their kids are going to the Olympics. Right.
Teri (31:00.704)
You
Lauren (31:01.769)
Well, and honestly, that's just reality for everybody. That should be reality for everybody, right? No, no. Absolutely, the NBA, the Olympics. yeah, they all think they're going there.
Wilhelmina (31:05.55)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (31:09.146)
No.
Wilhelmina (31:16.452)
Well, and I was raised by a single mom. She had like three jobs. She would never have had the time to take me around to all these places. And I remember when we had kids and like the park district registration things started up, I actually made like a mental note to myself that I was like, I'm not going to sign up for anything that has weekend anything until like a certain age, like until they're older. And I was like,
Teri (31:39.854)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (31:41.443)
Yes, the occasional one-off, like a little class or something like that, fine. But anything that is regularly on a weekend, I was like, my husband works all week. I said, I work. The weekends are our weekends. And I've kind of stuck by that. Again, the skating lessons were on the weekend occasionally. that was sort of my, I felt like that was my rule, my perimeter for me that felt right for me. And it is amazing how
much pressure I feel from the other parents I know locally that like, in fact, my husband was, we were at something with our good friends and they were talking about which sports our kids were in and they said this to my husband and they're like, well, you you guys are against sports or something. And he was like, we're not. Yeah. He's like, no, we're not, we're not against sports. He's like, we're just, he's like, our kids haven't found their thing and we're not.
Vanessa (32:14.201)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (32:29.055)
You're actively against truth.
Vanessa (32:29.767)
Wow, that's hard!
Yeah. Not everybody needs to do sports. I didn't do, I did intramural sports, which I don't even know if that's a thing anymore. So like in Catholic school, went to, right? So in Catholic school, you just played against the other kids in your school. So like they mixed the grade. It would be like sixth, seventh and eighth graders mixed up and there'd be like teams and you play against each other. Like that's what I did. I didn't do sports. I wasn't a sport kid growing up. So.
Lauren (32:38.036)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (32:38.714)
You know, we're just.
Teri (32:45.676)
Not really.
Wilhelmina (32:59.683)
No, I wasn't a sport person until high school.
Vanessa (33:02.343)
Yeah, like I didn't and I definitely didn't play any sports in high school. So like this was all new to me. I was saying like you will mean I was like, I am not spending my weekends toting my kid around. And here I am toting my kid around. But it's not every weekend, you know. But I was the same way. I was like, I don't know that I want to do that. And now that she's she's at the age where she asked to do these things like we didn't ask. We did not say like this is she came to me ballroom dancing, watched Dancing with the Stars and said, Mom, I want to ballroom dance.
Lauren (33:28.371)
Yes, yes, I love it.
Wilhelmina (33:28.959)
my gosh, I think it's so cute.
Vanessa (33:31.447)
And I ignored her for two months. I was like, yeah, yeah. Right, exactly. So she, exactly. And I said to her, there was a competition this week. said, do you want to do this? If you don't want to do this, I'm perfectly fine taking my Saturday and going somewhere else. And she was like, no, really want to do this. So I'm letting her drive that. But I think that that can be challenging for parents to do and be able to.
Lauren (33:34.431)
But you know what? It's child-led. She came up with it. It's not something you pushed.
Wilhelmina (33:36.632)
Yes, that's key. That's key.
Lauren (33:57.659)
It is, especially if you have a kiddo that's a little bit more anxious or slow to warm. I mean, those, was my, my Sam, my first born for sure early on. So we did all the things to just, and we had to push a little bit and pushing is a little bit different than parent led decision making on specialization of a competitive sport. Right? Right. Yeah.
Vanessa (34:02.425)
Hmm?
Teri (34:17.208)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (34:17.934)
Yes.
Vanessa (34:21.807)
Completely. Completely. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Teri (34:22.156)
Right. Right.
Wilhelmina (34:23.332)
Pushing to try something once is one thing.
Teri (34:25.966)
Right, so they can make an informed decision. when parents, I think if any parents listening think, well, how do I know if this is child led or not? I think it's pretty obvious. So our younger son, Tommy, who's seven, my husband played several different sports growing up and in high school. The two sports that he came up to us, we know nothing about. He came up to us and said, I want to wrestle. We know nothing about wrestling. And then he saw some kids at a park.
Lauren (34:26.961)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Wilhelmina (34:27.94)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (34:36.543)
100%.
Lauren (34:47.9)
No.
Vanessa (34:49.583)
That's how I felt.
Teri (34:54.614)
last spring playing lacrosse and came up to us and said, I want to do that. I want to play lacrosse. And they're like, okay, let's sign you up. So can try it, but kids will see things. They'll express curiosity about it. You try it and then you might even try it and then take a break for a little while or, then come back to it. And I think having that flexibility to be child led.
Vanessa (35:03.031)
You gotta move to the East Coast.
Lauren (35:04.797)
Yeah. Yeah.
No.
Wilhelmina (35:15.898)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Lauren (35:16.222)
Yeah.
Teri (35:22.658)
And I also think as your kids get older, for my fourth grader, for example, we'll say to him, do you want to do the spring round of basketball? And he said to us, well, what's the schedule? And we say, okay, actually, let's sit down. And then I said, is there anything else you want to do? And he's like, I want to take a comic book making class. I'm like, okay. I know he loves comics. And so I'm thinking, okay, because he's now getting to an age where he's going to be 10 next month, where he can make that informed decision. He knows.
Wilhelmina (35:33.286)
Lauren (35:36.179)
Yep, they know.
Wilhelmina (35:40.266)
he's so good with that. I love it.
Lauren (35:41.107)
Yep.
Wilhelmina (35:49.37)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (35:51.97)
what are the practices? And he said to me, well, how long are the practices? Are they an hour, hour and a half? So it does start to be more of a discussion and it's more collaborative and that can be more child led. And I said to my kids, there's another spring round of wrestling. And I said to Tommy, do you want to do it or do you want to take a break? I'd really prefer you take a break. And he's like, no, I'm gonna think I'm gonna take a break. Great, let's take a break. Cause you're seven. So if you want to try it again, you can try it again.
Lauren (35:55.047)
Bye.
Wilhelmina (35:59.887)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (36:10.785)
Hahaha
Wilhelmina (36:13.828)
Great. Yep. Yes. Yeah.
Lauren (36:17.36)
Right?
You've got time.
Vanessa (36:20.611)
Yeah. Yeah. Although it's fun.
Teri (36:21.964)
Yeah, exactly.
Wilhelmina (36:22.466)
My son does basketball through the Park District, which is just very like once a week. He's not even doing it right now, but he was doing it in December. And one of the moms was sitting there and she was like, are you going to now sign him up? If you keep him on this and then you sign him up for the whatever Glen Ellyn basketball thing, then he's going to have a better shot when he gets to high school of whatever. And I was like, are you watching him? I mean, he loves basketball, but I'm.
He is not going to be in the NBA, okay? Like, I don't think I've seen him hit a basket all year. And I was like, but he loves it with all his heart. So guess what? This is what we're doing. But this is as far as we're doing it until he wants to do more. And I was like, he is totally happy doing this once a week and running around with his friends and throwing the ball. But I was like, that's where it's at. So he's always like, basketball is my sport. I'm like, yeah, sure. And my daughter has my, so.
Lauren (37:00.113)
Yeah.
Lauren (37:04.285)
Right.
Teri (37:14.766)
Sure, yeah, sure, you like it.
Wilhelmina (37:18.788)
For anyone who has ever seen me run, I have a very unique run. Terry is laughing because she has seen me run. My dad has my run. My cousin had had my run. It is very unique, very unique. So at one point when my daughter was pretty young, I saw her run down the sidewalk and I was like behind her and I was like, good God, she has my run.
Teri (37:24.76)
gate gate
Lauren (37:45.299)
That was a run.
Vanessa (37:45.728)
Hahaha.
Wilhelmina (37:46.191)
But do you know what that run means? It means we're really good runners. Anyone who has that run, are. When I did fall into cross-country my sophomore year of high school, I was good right away and then only got better with practice. So I stumbled across it. So I keep telling Maddie, I was like, I think you're going to be a good runner if you like it, if you want it. So I put it out there. I'm just like, hey, you've got the run. It's clearly genetic. Your grandpa had a
Lauren (37:49.555)
It is.
Teri (38:00.174)
Thank you.
Lauren (38:08.499)
Well, it's.
Lauren (38:14.226)
you
Wilhelmina (38:15.364)
track scholarship for college and things like that. Like it's, you're going to be a good runner if you want to run, but maybe you don't.
Lauren (38:21.247)
Well, and you developed that interest later and you still love running as an adult. So you're a really good single case study of all of this research that suggests like you described falling into it. Like you were able to kind of figure out like, oh, this is something I kind of enjoy. And like, oh, look, I'm good at it, which develops that intrinsic motivation. I wanted to mention there's, read this article about the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota basketball coach.
Wilhelmina (38:23.618)
Later, much later. I do.
Vanessa (38:24.419)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:34.202)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (38:39.226)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (38:48.128)
yeah, right by my high school.
Lauren (38:51.111)
Okay, so he's a division, it's division one basketball, okay, at the college level. His name is Johnny Tower. He's also a PhD social psychologist. And so they interviewed him in like a local Minnesota, they interviewed him in like a local Minnesota paper about this whole concept. Okay, exactly what we're talking about, about are we ruining youth sports?
Wilhelmina (38:59.769)
Ooh.
Wilhelmina (39:03.226)
Psychology nerds over here. Ooh!
Vanessa (39:05.583)
you
Teri (39:06.014)
Lauren (39:18.225)
And one of the things that he said is it's easier for parents to screw up motivation than to create it. And I thought that was such a, it's exactly what you're describing, Wilhelmina, which is like your motivation came really organically and intrinsically for running because you tried it, you liked it, and you were good at it. And I think so many parents believe, and I mean, I can see myself being vulnerable. I think we've all had these moments that like,
Wilhelmina (39:23.098)
Mmm. Love that.
Vanessa (39:23.695)
No.
Teri (39:24.852)
Vanessa (39:30.787)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (39:34.36)
And I was good at it. Yeah.
Lauren (39:43.421)
We have to do all of these things in a certain way based on what everybody else is telling us, you know, in our sort of cultural world about how to develop these skills and this motivation for kids. And really, that's the exact way to screw it up, is to do all of these things too hard, too structured, too early on, and not teach kids just about things like, you know, developing friendships, developing interests, finding things that you're like, this is fun, I want to go do this.
Teri (39:58.274)
Mhm.
Wilhelmina (39:58.394)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (40:07.578)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (40:11.529)
for fun when I have free time. And so it really, I thought, was a nice way of describing what we're all doing. We're screwing up the motivation as opposed to helping them create it.
Teri (40:12.919)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (40:23.61)
popping.
Vanessa (40:24.047)
Well, they said that their number one reason kids quit is they say it's not fun anymore. So you're killing the fun. I was just thinking, right, they don't enjoy it. Yeah. So I was thinking of, I mentioned to you guys that there was this interview with Michael Jordan that I wanted to reference and I don't even know how I came across it. So it was like 1994, 96 Oprah Winfrey was interviewing Michael Jordan, who some of you may know he is, I'm not going to get into argument. He's one of the best basketball players, if not the best. Sorry.
Wilhelmina (40:28.622)
Yes, yep. They get injured. It's not fun. Yeah.
Lauren (40:28.893)
Yeah, they don't have that in Smithfield.
Teri (40:29.251)
Hmm.
Lauren (40:37.042)
yeah!
Lauren (40:49.503)
I don't think people will argue that with you.
Teri (40:49.538)
He's goaded, he's goaded, he's the goat. Yeah, as my kids would say, goaded, he's goaded.
Wilhelmina (40:51.861)
I don't think you need to, I think that's pretty.
Vanessa (40:54.325)
So, okay. So he's in this interview and okay, so we're saying he is, if not the best basketball player, whoever has played maybe, some people debate that, but I mean, I'm from Chicago, we're from Chicago, so of course we're gonna say that. He did not start playing basketball until he was 12. So he said he started off as a baseball player at six and so he was playing baseball.
Lauren (40:56.915)
Let's go get it.
Teri (41:04.248)
He is.
Lauren (41:10.911)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (41:12.366)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (41:15.519)
Yeah.
Vanessa (41:17.932)
His dad happened to buy a basketball hoop and put it in their driveway. And so he picks up the basketball and starts playing. I was like, what a wonderful example of somebody who did not specialize early on and just happened to pick it up like Wilhelmina. You're like, was a sophomore in high school. I decided to start running. That you can really excel at something. You don't have to do it so young. Like I thought he was such a great example. And then he talks about how he worked hard, right? So.
Wilhelmina (41:29.028)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (41:43.405)
You know, there's that he wanted to do this. He works hard for that. It was just, it was such a great clip of that interview. And I was like, so many people need to watch this because here is, you know, this amazing basketball player who didn't start at six or five or four. He started at 12 and by kind of by accident, right. Just picked up the basketball and started playing. So I thought that was great example.
Teri (42:00.812)
And is it a myth or is it true that he didn't make his high school team? I've heard my husband. That's true, right? I feel like I've heard people say that. Yeah, he didn't make this high school team. Yeah.
Lauren (42:04.223)
No, that's true. That's a true story. Yeah. Well, he had just started playing. mean, so unfortunately, though, for every Michael Jordan story, there's a Tiger Woods who started at three on Johnny Carson. And that's what all of these parents like, we're all preaching to the choir. Wilhelmina got feedback from a friend that we agree too much on this podcast. And unfortunately, this is probably why we're all so close. Right. Like we all have that same perspective. And I'm
Vanessa (42:15.223)
Yeah, right.
Wilhelmina (42:15.584)
or the Selena, the Williams sisters.
Vanessa (42:25.263)
That's what was going say, that's why our friends, are, I mean, that's why.
Teri (42:29.826)
Yeah.
Lauren (42:33.371)
I want to hear that interview, Vanessa, because that's the kind of stuff that I love to save and click on for my kiddo if they need that kind of just hearing it from somebody else. The problem is there are so many parents that would give you the argument for Tiger Woods. They'd be like, mean, know. Wow, they all have their personal, even your favorite Michael Jordan all have their personal stuff. Let's be honest here, guys.
Teri (42:47.854)
I know. And look how he turned out, personally, in terms of... True, true, very true, very, very, very true.
Wilhelmina (42:47.866)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (42:50.893)
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:51.694)
Yeah, I'm like, is that a success? Is that a success story?
Vanessa (42:57.007)
I mean, some of that some of that's also driven by the places, right? So, for example, you know, when so we put Everly in gymnastics and she was like two or three, we did like a mommy me toddler, like there was no like, there was no thought of like, this is what she's going to do. But then she kept doing it because she liked it. And at some point, we were like,
Lauren (43:13.267)
did that with the boys.
Vanessa (43:19.791)
We were trying to debate like, should we go back to the old gym? We went to, we stopped going because of COVID. Like, is this, you know, where do we want to go? So I called and I was like, oh, you know, my daughter's seven. She was seven at the time. And, you know, she's been doing gymnastics, you know, for a while. And, you know, I wanted to talk about switching and they were basically like, oh, she's kind of old already. And I was like, she's seven. She's seven. She was in first grade at the time. I'm like, you're, she's kind of old, you know.
Lauren (43:36.415)
I remember you telling us this last year on our trip. Yes, that's-
Wilhelmina (43:37.969)
Wilhelmina (43:43.578)
She's getting a little old.
Lauren (43:43.711)
I can remember this. Oh, you really missed the deadline there.
Vanessa (43:48.301)
And I was like, but she's been in gymnastics, you know? But besides that, they were like, well, she's kind of old. And so was like, OK, clearly we're not going to your gym because you already think my kid at seven is done, is out the window. So I can imagine parents hearing that from this facility that they're calling, they're like, my, it sets panic in, right? So even if you're trying to be this parent who's, right, you hear this from this professional, your kid's too old.
Teri (43:48.812)
Gosh.
Lauren (43:55.261)
Right. Culturally, that's not the place for you. Yeah.
Teri (43:58.222)
you.
Wilhelmina (44:03.3)
Yes. Yes.
level-headed, like...
Teri (44:11.82)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (44:12.676)
Yep, you get a spike, you're like, something, I've missed something.
Vanessa (44:16.879)
Exactly. then, you know, even dancing. So when I really started dancing, you know, her coach was like, well, all the kids her age have already been dancing for however long. So she went into a class with peers that were a little bit younger. And I was like, OK. And then I felt kind of bad in the moment, even though I was like, I didn't even know that this was a thing that people did. You know, she wanted to do this. And it's funny because she now because she's older, she has made such vast like she's now way ahead of those kids. And it's not.
Teri (44:17.976)
I'm behind.
Lauren (44:31.615)
I know.
Teri (44:35.363)
Bye.
Lauren (44:45.449)
Right.
Vanessa (44:46.675)
I don't even necessarily know that's, I mean, I think she's a good dancer, but part of it is just development. Developmentally, she's, yes, that they can't because they're five and six. she, so I don't, you know, again, we talk about like, we're starting these kids early on, but you know, there is something to like brain development as you get older, that you can pick up things that you can't necessarily when you're younger, because you just don't have the cognitive capacity to do so. So I do feel like there is this, there are reasons why you would wait.
Lauren (44:49.939)
Well, she could make the, I was going to say cognitively, she could make the connections. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (44:56.73)
you
Teri (45:04.664)
Hmm.
Lauren (45:11.805)
Yeah.
Vanessa (45:16.297)
One of the things she brings up is injuries in kids. These kids, they're quitting because of the lack of motivation, but these kids are also getting these serious major injuries from overuse. They're overuse injuries. It's crazy.
Wilhelmina (45:18.478)
was just going to mention that.
Lauren (45:19.315)
Yeah.
Lauren (45:24.499)
Like overuse, yes.
Wilhelmina (45:24.804)
Huge injury, huge injury. I mean, I see so many like kids, like young adults, late teens, I have seen over the years, they've had, I've had multiple people who've gotten knee replacements, knee replacements at like 18, 19. And guess what? You can't just keep getting knee replacements. So like at some point, like you're gonna have to get another one and.
Lauren (45:47.868)
No.
Wilhelmina (45:51.983)
My friend Erica can attest to this because she has something with her ankle. Like, they can't do a lot after a certain point. So like, you are literally sacrificing your body to have it be already compromised at like, as a young adult.
Lauren (45:58.164)
Yeah.
Teri (46:07.468)
Well, what I think people don't realize is it's not just the playing the one sport overuse. A lot of these kids are playing the one position. So it's the one singular sport plus the same position, especially for baseball. I think you see that a lot with baseball. Yeah, if you're the pitcher or if you're the catcher, your first baseman. Yes, exactly.
Wilhelmina (46:15.02)
Yes, yes.
Lauren (46:15.529)
Yes.
you.
Wilhelmina (46:21.048)
Yes, like shoulders and yeah.
Lauren (46:25.023)
So you're doing the same movement. Yeah.
Vanessa (46:26.627)
Yeah. Well, the goal, so there's so much focus on winning. So I was reading some about that. There's so much focus on winning that a lot of times teens are not willing to try new things and switching up positions, switching up the plays that they're going to make. They don't want to do that because they know that X, Y, and Z works. And our goal is not to become necessarily better players. Our goal is to become winner, be winners. And so that's part of it. So they're having the kids play the same exact, you know,
Lauren (46:37.693)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Wilhelmina (46:38.458)
Lauren (46:44.435)
Yep. Yep.
Teri (46:48.312)
Well-rounded athletes, right?
Wilhelmina (46:51.426)
Hmm.
Vanessa (46:55.501)
plays the same position, right? And so that's hindering them both physically, but then they're also not being able to learn new skills. And so ultimately, it makes you not as good as a player because you're not a well-rounded player then if you can't kind of do multiple things. So thought that was so interesting. Yes.
Teri (47:12.27)
That's a really good point.
Lauren (47:13.639)
It is a really good point. And I think it puts, it puts, it puts the responsibility on parents, which of course it's always the responsibility of parents to pay well, but to pay attention to a coach that would be willing to say, so as much as I just spoke about the coach that scheduled the game within 24 hours, forces, encourages, pushes the kids to try different positions.
Teri (47:21.836)
and coaches.
Vanessa (47:26.094)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (47:38.618)
Mm.
Lauren (47:39.205)
And Jack, the first time, know, Jack started off in defense, it just kind of worked for him. It was like really natural for him in soccer. And then he put him in midfield and it was like, Jack was like, I'm sorry, like he was like beside himself, right? Because he didn't know exactly what to do. And we're like, well, he obviously has the faith in you that you can figure this out. So give it a try. And that kind of cognitive connection of, I can do this and create this kind of new pathway.
Wilhelmina (47:56.644)
Yeah, yeah.
Lauren (48:05.279)
to learn a new skill gave him so much confidence that it was a really nice thing for us to see as parents of like, is the right spot for our child in so many ways for those kinds of reasons. But it's hard to, it's hard as a parent to find those people in the culture that has been created. And so I think a lot of times that we're just, vulnerable to getting stuck in these kinds of cycles of
Wilhelmina (48:30.489)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (48:34.642)
competitive specialized sports that we didn't sign up for. Like we didn't sign up for this. What happened? Right?
Vanessa (48:37.912)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (48:38.126)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (48:38.456)
Hahaha.
Vanessa (48:40.463)
That's one of the things they said is as a parent you should, because you're not the coach obviously, but you should be looking for the coach whose main priority is parenting. Like that that's their main priority is the parenting piece and not being the coach. So you can have some control, right? can't have, I mean, you can't control everything that's going on, but you can look for those coaches who are more concerned about the parenting piece, right? Than the ones who are more focused on winning, right?
Teri (48:49.827)
Okay.
Lauren (48:50.013)
Yes! Ooh, I love that!
Wilhelmina (49:07.854)
Well, in that podcast with Linda Flanagan, I think she had put it really well when she said that sports today have made children go from our employees as parents to our bosses. And so if you think about that, then a coach could be like the CEO, and then you've got the bosses. So you want someone that's going to help actually keep your role as a parent and their role as kids.
Lauren (49:22.079)
Yeah.
Vanessa (49:22.959)
That's wonderful.
Teri (49:23.5)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (49:26.003)
Amazing.
Teri (49:36.718)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (49:36.998)
Absolutely.
Wilhelmina (49:37.54)
Cultivate that, nurture that, have the bigger picture in mind just like you as a parent want for your kids as opposed to winning. And that's it.
Lauren (49:44.319)
Right. Vanessa, can we link? We should link this. keep referring to the book in the podcast. We'll have to link that for folks because it's worth a listen. It's worth a read. mean, listen to us first, but then go to the other one.
Teri (49:49.038)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (49:55.646)
yeah, well, yep, yep.
Vanessa (50:02.831)
We can definitely link that on Instagram. And I'll find that clip of Michael Jordan because I just think it's so good. And I don't know what I was like. I don't even know. It came up on Instagram somehow. I don't know how. Any more thoughts on today's topic? I feel like we could talk for like another hour on this. Maybe we'll talk more on another podcast.
Lauren (50:07.047)
Yeah, that would be great. I would love to see that. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (50:07.544)
Yes, absolutely.
Lauren (50:19.079)
Yeah, I was going to say we could have a complete part two. But I think what Linda Flanagan said is good to end on. If it sounds crazy, it probably is.
Vanessa (50:22.095)
I think so.
Vanessa (50:25.743)
I like that. Agreed. Well, thank you for joining us today. Please join us next time on The Shrinkdown.
Wilhelmina (50:26.062)
Yeah, yep. Trust your gut, trust your gut.
Teri (50:27.286)
Agreed. Agreed.